An INTJ without a cause...

[Santana28]

Okay, i have a problem and i'd like some input from like-minded people.

It seems the number one definition of an INTJ is that of a human being with an internal motivation and a drive for perfection. Often, INTJs find passion in particular pursuits such as mathematics or science, etc etc.

All of my life, i have had this desire and internal drive to do the best in anything i touch, and to push myself to face challenges head on and overcome them.

But it seems that most INTJs have always had a particular goal in life - something specific they strive for. I have never had that. Or i want to do everything. I'm not sure which is which anymore... everything and nothing all make the same difference to me.

There's never anything that has stopped me, nothing except for one thing - a life with no real ambition. I dont have any desire to make more money than i need to survive. I have many things i want to learn about, but nothing that i would feel comfortable spending my life pursuing while neglecting others. There is no career goal or field of work that stands out as something that i would want to do for the rest of my life, that would have me neglect others. I want to do everything, or nothing. So far...nothing is winning out.

My question is this - have you always had a particular goal or ambition in life? If not, how do you get by? For those of you who have perhaps spent years languishing as i have, only to discover that focus - how did you find it, and what let you know that it was "the one?"

Its really the most frustrating aspect of my life - knowing that i can do anything i want, but having nothing i desire...

[BadMojo]

Okay, i have a problem and I'd like some input from like-minded people.

It seems the number one definition of an INTJ is that of a human being with an internal motivation and a drive for perfection. Often, INTJs find passion in particular pursuits such as mathematics...
I know exactly how you feel. I felt it some years back, when I had finished my education and was working my first real job. I looked around and asked myself, is this really my life? Sometimes, I felt as if the days just passed by as seen through a haze.
Then I read a book that changed my perspective a bit. I'm not sure what it's called in English, but translated directly it's called "The art to live a happy life" by the Dalai Lama. It sort of clicked with some other Buddhist stuff I've read in high school.
I've always been introverted, but I never knew how truly turn my focus inwards toward a goal within me; a goal that I would never achieve because it was impossible to fulfil it.
My goal became me or the ultimate me. I wanted to become the best I can become. Because, the closer I got to my ultimate reflection, the happier I became.

You see. Most people turn their eyes outward when searching for goals. They chose goals for money, glory, fame, respect and so on. But fever people try to find their goals inside themselves. For instance, how can you become a better person?

And being a better person doesn't mean to donate everything to charity, or helping the homeless every weekend. A better person is one who is in harmony with his or hers surroundings. I'm still a cynical bastard that doesn’t give a rat’s backside about the world’s problems until I face them. But I respect those around me.

I have chosen that I want to live a life where I have the ability to change. I don't want to have the same job for 20 years. I don’t want to be a specialist. I want to change and experience life from many perspectives.
For instance, I have friends who are drug addicts and friends who are taking PHDs. in nanotechnology. I can talk to anyone. I can fit in everywhere. I am diverse because I respect my surroundings. And that is the freedom I've tried to achieve.

Right now I don't have a fancy job. But I got a lot of spare time, and I earn enough to get by and have something to spare. But since I have all this spare time, I've found freedom to be creative and to do something new. I'm currently trying to gather all the loose ends to start my own business. I do this because I can, and because I want to.

So unless you're dreaming about getting a huge house and a cool car and all other materialistic goods - which I read, you don't. Why not just stop being a specialist and become a jack of all trades. Find the goal within you and be who you want to become. Let your goal be you.

[Santana28]

So unless you're dreaming about getting a huge house and a cool car and all other materialistic goods - which I read, you don't. Why not just stop being a specialist and become a jack of all trades. Find the goal within you and be who you want to become. Let your goal be you.

Thats my problem! I *am* a jack of all trades. I *am* internally focused. The problem, i suppose... i have no worthy outlet. I'd like to express myself through my work - but theres nothing that seems capable of accommodating that desire. Education is an option, but i can't justify spending tens of thousands of dollars going into debt studying *one* subject when i could be learning about a variety of things on my own time. Its just that while i do these things, they somehow don't seem good enough? Like i could be doing better, or they're not challenging enough to me. I'm never happy with anything i do, and them i'm miserable by doing nothing.

I'll admit i have been guilty of the mindset that i'm trying to compromise with the world and be happy at the same time - i *do* need a job that keeps a roof over my head. I've spent years just basically scratching and striving to get by, and while that is satisfying in a way..at the same time i think about all of the things i could be doing instead. Everything is so black and white, one thing or another - i can't find the happy medium. I dont know if there is such a thing. I know it seems like most people have that one passion in their life that they can focus on to keep them happy... but i dont have that.

There are several goals of which i do have set for myself and i've neglected them for other things... but i'd ultimately like to find something that works to satisfy ALL of my goals while also providing a livable lifestyle... if that is possible?

Thank you for the input.

[Firelie]

My question is this - have you always had a particular goal or ambition in life? If not, how do you get by? For those of you who have perhaps spent years languishing as i have, only to discover that focus - how did you find it, and what let you know that it was "the one?"

Its really the most frustrating aspect of my life - knowing that i can do anything i want, but having nothing i desire...

Actually, I have the same problem as you. Everything's interesting and possible, but I've been unwilling to just dump all of my effort into one thing.

I've been in college for 4 years so far and I've changed my major 3 times already. I'm doing graphic design now and I think I'll finish this degree, but not because it's my life's passion, more like I find it interesting enough to study and I'm getting a bit tired of being a college student working toward a major (and the lack of money that goes with that). I might try being a graphic designer after I get out of college, but I kinda doubt I'll do it forever. I kinda like the idea of working a normal job (ie one that doesn't require mind, body and soul) and taking classes that I'm interested in on the side.

I guess that makes it my "one", but I didn't really discover it after years of languishing. I actually took a career course at a local community college and part of that was the MBTI test...that particular test gave you career ideas based on your personality profile and one of the suggestions for INTJ was graphic design (the others were sciences...which are interesting, but I'm not very good at maths and sciences, so I wasn't going to go there). Anyway, at the time I was 19, dumb and naive and I thought graphic design was just making graphics for webpages and I didn't think I could do that all of the time...long story short, I forgot about that idea and I decided to be a foreign languages major for a few years...but then I got bored of that, dropped out of college for a little while, realized that life was boring without learning, and decided to try the original suggestion again.

Well here I am, and I'm having a great time with it. I just wish I'd been smart enough to try it out in the first place... I could've saved probably two years and thousands of dollars...but ah well, such is life.

[ssfanatic]

I just recently discovered i am an INTJ, and there is only one other person i know who is remotely like me. And im in highschool so its pretty dificult. So i find it remarkable that there are others who share the same problems and characteristics as me.
I tend to have the same problem. I will research a topic, find out all the posible information, and still not feel as if i have accomplished anything. I feel as if ive just learned one more useless bit of information. But i guess youthfulness is foolishness, so maybe this cup will pass. (not that im calling anyone foolish, dont take me wrong)

[Danisty]

My question is this - have you always had a particular goal or ambition in life? If not, how do you get by? For those of you who have perhaps spent years languishing as i have, only to discover that focus - how did you find it, and what let you know that it was "the one?"

Its really the most frustrating aspect of my life - knowing that i can do anything i want, but having nothing i desire...This is the story of my life. I can't settle on anything and wind up doing nothing or worse, doing something I hate just to make some money so I can keep a roof over my head. My husband was the same way (he's an ENTJ) and he absolutely needs a purpose. He just can't stand doing meaningless work. He just figured out at 26 what he wanted to do (he joined the Army as a combat medic), but here I am 2 years older than him and I still haven't figured it out. I think the direction I'm going to go after now is to just learn all the languages I've been wanting to learn and see if I can make a career out of that or at least put myself in a position in a company where I would be invaluable because that's the only way I can figure I'll be able to keep a job. So far, it's been moving from one job to another either because I got fed up and walked out or got let go for not fitting in. I can't keep going like this.

[Solaris]

It all sounds eerily familiar. My resume is so widespread and bizarre, but I love it. Where some would see instability and lack of commitment, I see varied experience and lessons learned, carried forward, and used. Like Danisty's husband, I do need to have purpose and a direction in order to feel "ok" with life. It's ugly when I don't have a driving goal.

[Danisty]

It all sounds eerily familiar. My resume is so widespread and bizarre, but I love it. Where some would see instability and lack of commitment, I see varied experience and lessons learned, carried forward, and used. Like Danisty's husband, I do need to have purpose and a direction in order to feel "ok" with life. It's ugly when I don't have a driving goal.See when I tell people that about my husband, they really do think I'm exaggerating, but without a purpose he is almost not even human. It's more like living with a zombie.

[Solaris]

See when I tell people that about my husband, they really do think I'm exaggerating, but without a purpose he is almost not even human. It's more like living with a zombie.

If he's anything like me, then he feels like a zombie when he has no driving goal. If I don't provide myself with a direction, I can't even ....no, I just can't anything if I don't have a direction. Just then, even thinking about it, it's like my brain shut off. "Life with no direction" = *insert powering down noise*

[Ice Wolf]

Same problem here. I know I am capable of much more than I am showing for past two years.

I can earn money but then I don't know what to do with it. I have everything even slightly useful (except space shuttle) I ever wanted.

I could probably buy a new car but I don't exactly know why.

I never go to vacations because I don't know where, when and most importantly why?

Last half of the year I don't even know what to do for fun. Even if I there were no limits I still wouldn't know what to do.

I show up for job. Do the least possible amount of work because I see no point in it.

I can still remember those days. When I had some zeal for anything.

I fell like a sharp blade with nothing to cut.

Damn you Nietzsche.

[rwyatt365]

STOP READING MY MIND!! :stunned:

Ok, this is really too weird. Like most that have posted here, I know that I have the ability to do anything that I really put my mind to. I also have not (after 50+ years) sat down and "plotted a course". Even in my chosen field (IT) I am a generalist and have functioned in a number of different capacities. I know that this has hampered me to a large degree in advancement because "regular" people don't believe that anyone can be successful at a number of things at the same time. I've learned to live with that (I don't like it, but I've learned to live with it).

[Santana28]

argh... so it seems as if this is the life i'm doomed to, eh? No Howard Roark's among us, eh? Damn.

I get the same thing - i'm always having to explain my dozens of jobs and the fact that i've moved 3,4,5 times in a year. One year i simply left a job and spent 3 months traveling the country and sleeping in campgrounds... it was the best time of my life. Honestly, if i had any goal - taking off and just wandering would probably make me happier than anything else!

Actually, most of my life i have had very intense fits of desire to join the military. Something about the structure, and the results-oriented atmosphere... i've came *this* close to signing up several times. When i was younger all i wanted to do was go to a military academy, and become a pilot. But i'm not physically disciplined enough for that. And now i'm married, and i have a child. And i feel like its something that i just can't do at this point in my life, so it's not an option anymore. The feeling goes away, but then i'm left thinking about what else i would like to do. I've done graphic design and i guess you could call me a graphic designer... i've never had a class in my life. My husband went to school for psychology and has a bachelors - and he can get any graphic design job he wants. We've done some pretty high-profile stuff for bands. He works with Mixed Martial Artists and has had a number of his designs on tv worn by fighters. He's never had a graphic design class in his life either. As far as myself goes - i don't really find enjoyment out of graphic design. The joy comes from interpreting someone else's idea into visual form. It loses it's appeal when a price tag and timeline are attached.

If i could just sit back and focus on one or three things at a time, and set a schedule, and do it - i think i might be able to be happy. Right now i'd like to get involved in martial arts, learn a new language, and read more philosophy. But between taking care of my son, and working my enjoyably INTJ job (i sit in a car all night long listening to the radio and watching people from a distance)... there just isnt enough time in the day. Add on to that the sleeping problems i have (i cant fall asleep until 3 or 4 am, and i have to wake up at 7 or 8am and then i am basically a zombie until the sun goes down and then i wake up). I dont get much done, and i wonder why.

Hmmm... oh,, and my #1 pet peeve? Employers who refuse to hire someone who is obviously capable of doing a job merely because they lack that "certain piece of paper." I dont know how many jobs my husband has got that were completely unrelated to his field of study in college, and that he had absolutely no knowledge about or skill in... but he has that piece of paper...oh my god...

[Firelie]

Hmmm... oh,, and my #1 pet peeve? Employers who refuse to hire someone who is obviously capable of doing a job merely because they lack that "certain piece of paper." I dont know how many jobs my husband has got that were completely unrelated to his field of study in college, and that he had absolutely no knowledge about or skill in... but he has that piece of paper...oh my god...

Yep, that's the #1 reason why I feel the need to finish college. It sounds stupid, but graduation was never my ultimate goal in attending college. Not until I tried to get a job and realized that in a city this big, my resume was only mediocre without some padding in the form of a degree. Bah humbug.

[Santana28]

Yep, that's the #1 reason why I feel the need to finish college. It sounds stupid, but graduation was never my ultimate goal in attending college. Not until I tried to get a job and realized that in a city this big, my resume was only mediocre without some padding in the form of a degree. Bah humbug.

You know, you'd probably find the whole thing ridiculous if you've seen what i've seen.

I have no idea what your prospects will be. I am good at interpreting things visually, but not so technically skilled. My husband is an amazing technical artist but not so good at conveying things through visual form. We designed a few things for a friend because it was something we wanted to do (i created the exact concept, and he illustrated it) and this person appreciated it and connected us with someone else who needed an artist for more designs and so on. I did the majority of things by hand, and came up with every concept - and he edited and illustrated and made it more technically sound. Now he is a well known graphic designer working freelance, while also the art director of a company despite having *ZERO* classes in graphic design. In fact, he's only been with the company a year and has gotten promoted over the entire team of college-educated graphic designers. heck, i taught him how to use photoshop and illustrator... but here's the fun part - he wouldn't have gotten these jobs if it weren't for his bachelors in psychology. i've attempted to find jobs in graphic design using the EXACT same portfolio as him, and never succeeded.

It would be amusing, if it didn't piss me off so much. The thought of going to college and going into debt in order to buy a piece of paper saying i'm qualified to do a job that the only qualification required is to have an expensive piece of paper... well... doesn't make me jump for joy. People can't stand seeing someone who didn't go through the same hoops they went through succeed based on talent alone, i've discovered.

[Laura_Palmer]

People can't stand seeing someone who didn't go through the same hoops they went through succeed based on talent alone, i've discovered.

Exactly. Well said!

[ssfanatic]

Exactly. Well said!

Yes, i think this is what, other than natural preference, forces us to become introverted. Others jealousy is hard hard to cope with, and often is extremely condescending. But to be honest i dont get along with most anyway so its not that troublesome.

[rwyatt365]

It would be amusing, if it didn't piss me off so much. The thought of going to college and going into debt in order to buy a piece of paper saying i'm qualified to do a job that the only qualification required is to have an expensive piece of paper... well... doesn't make me jump for joy. People can't stand seeing someone who didn't go through the same hoops they went through succeed based on talent alone, i've discovered.
Trust me, I know what you mean – and I do have that little piece of paper. The problem is that my piece of paper is; a) showing it's age, and b) doesn't have the right letters on it. what does that mean? I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and I work in the IT field. In IT, certifications are all that matters – what you know, and the experience that you have is meaningless. If you don’t have MSCE, or CCNE or some other alphabet-soup designation behind your name, you can't get hired. Experience and talent count for nothing, if you don't have the right papers you can't get into "the club".

PS – It's not even amusing. :thumbsdown:

[Santana28]

Trust me, I know what you mean – and I do have that little piece of paper. The problem is that my piece of paper is; a) showing it's age, and b) doesn't have the right letters on it. what does that mean? I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and I work in the IT field. In IT, certifications are all that matters – what you know, and the experience that you have is meaningless. If you don’t have MSCE, or CCNE or some other alphabet-soup designation behind your name, you can't get hired. Experience and talent count for nothing, if you don't have the right papers you can't get into "the club".

PS – It's not even amusing. :thumbsdown:

well, if we returned to a society that valued excellence and ability over bank accounts and personal connections, our lot might improve a bit :)

[Aureleian]

Danisty

I just left my job and am going back to the Navy. Its the only environment where I feel that I am accomplishing something in the big picture of life. Fake, fraud and "make work" drive me up the wall. INTJ's always want the ball in the last 5 seconds of the game and know we are making a difference. If the job does not do that its the ticket to hell.

[Danisty]

Danisty

I just left my job and am going back to the Navy. Its the only environment where I feel that I am accomplishing something in the big picture of life. Fake, fraud and "make work" drive me up the wall. INTJ's always want the ball in the last 5 seconds of the game and know we are making a difference. If the job does not do that its the ticket to hell.You know it's strange. For most of my life, I thought the military was a really bad idea. My husband joined the Army at 26, which is obviously quite a bit older than most people because we thought the military was not the way to go. He's happier with his work than he's ever been and our relationship actually improved. I thought it was great already, but we fight even less now and the military lifestyle suits us so well. I've actually not been a hysterical mess with this deployment. I'm not actually overly worried and we were talking about it and he said "that's because if you could join the Army, you would." I never thought about it before. I'm totally out of shape, but if I lost this weight, would I seriously consider joining? I always thought the answer was no, but now I'm not sure. There are a lot of things about the military that interest me. I was actually jealous when he told me about the things they got to do in Basic. Obstacle courses and firing ranges? It sounds fun.

[Aureleian]

He has alot of different stimulation coming at him. That seems to be what we need. He seems to want something that counts in life. The more seeming chaos comes the more comfortable, at least, I feel. I know some parts of his new life are difficult. But he is living something that, for him, counts for something in our limited time on earth. A wasted life is looking back knowing you never made a difference in a d**n thing you did and went with the program and submersed your true self.

[Zilal]

I've also majorly lacked for direction. I listened to The Fountainhead on audiobook this year and was particularly struck with the line where Roark asks Peter, "How can you stand not knowing what you want?"

I don't know! I can't stand it!

But I think part of this need for some inner purpose isn't intrinsic, I mean I think it comes from books and movies and in a lot of ways it's an unrealistic expectation. To have some particular driving passion. I'm at a point in my life where I'm so worn out hopping from thing to thing, I'm more interested in practicing settling down into the spot where I am now, unideal as it is. If it is tiring not to have a passion, it's equally tiring to keep assuming the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

[Rohsiph]

well, if we returned to a society that valued excellence and ability over bank accounts and personal connections, our lot might improve a bit :)

This is why I often find myself fantasizing about calamity . . .

Even knowing quite well of the number and veracity of physical maladies that I live with, I am confident that, assuming I was not a "first-wave" casualty (like from being within the initial blast radius if the calamity is nuclear fallout), I would thrive.

[Santana28]

argh you guys! i've spent my whole life shooting down my compulsion to join the military, and then i hear what you have to say about it.

honestly - if i didnt have my son, i would have signed up in an instant. but at the same time, i feel like it would be some form of escapism - the structure of it all, and the lack of choice. sounds like a dream for someone who frets over every minor decision!

actually, thats partly why i've been pursuing a law enforcement career. i'm still not certain that i'd like to become a full police officer, but for now i enjoy the attitude and environment for the most part.

[Danisty]

argh you guys! i've spent my whole life shooting down my compulsion to join the military, and then i hear what you have to say about it.

honestly - if i didnt have my son, i would have signed up in an instant. but at the same time, i feel like it would be some form of escapism - the structure of it all, and the lack of choice. sounds like a dream for someone who frets over every minor decision!

actually, thats partly why i've been pursuing a law enforcement career. i'm still not certain that i'd like to become a full police officer, but for now i enjoy the attitude and environment for the most part.My husband tried the police force first and at least down here, it is NOTHING like the military. The kind of camaraderie that you get in the military is completely absent from the police. Two of the guys my hubby went to police academy with were ex-Army and they both hate their jobs now. I'm not saying it's that way everywhere, but it is a mistake to think that being a police officer is like being a soldier.

[Santana28]

My husband tried the police force first and at least down here, it is NOTHING like the military. The kind of camaraderie that you get in the military is completely absent from the police. Two of the guys my hubby went to police academy with were ex-Army and they both hate their jobs now. I'm not saying it's that way everywhere, but it is a mistake to think that being a police officer is like being a soldier.

no, no... i know they're two totally separate creatures.

camaradarie isnt exactly on the top of the list of things i'm looking for :) more importantly i like having a defined job with freedom to move and make decisions with tangible results.

i've often wondered if spending a year in jail or in the military would be like a vacation to me - a set schedule, no worries about how to provide for myself, a balanced diet (ha!), and unlimited time to exercise, read, think, etc etc etc. all that introspection!

[Vortex]

This thread actually served as the tipping point in me deciding to actively join this forum. Its like reading posts from my own thoughts, and its... weird.

I've also majorly lacked for direction. I listened to The Fountainhead on audiobook this year and was particularly struck with the line where Roark asks Peter, "How can you stand not knowing what you want?"

I don't know! I can't stand it!



I found the FountainHead seriouslly Depressing for this reason alone. I simply... coudn't relate to Roark. At all. I admired him, and I'm still to this day supremley jealous of his charachter. The passion and strength of conviction of knowing exactly what he wanted to do, and do for all time... Its a passion I'm looking for right now, and with no luck.

I'm the jack of all trades, have a terribly scattered resume, and... I want to do it all! I want to be in Game Design, Graphics Design, a Think Tank, a High-Level Politician, and a General all at the same time! And thats leaving quite a bit out. I feel like I'm being forced to specialize and its driving me insane. I want to specialize, but without the opportunity cost it requires.

Lacking this direction, I can truly relate to the zombie bits above. I just feel like life becomes terribly nihilistic and pointless, and often wonder what the point is to go on at all (this isn't a suicide note, just nihilistic pondering). I wonder if my love of zombie movies, books, and scenarios are some sort of subconscious flipping of this feeling.

At least I'd be right at home in a Zombie Apocalypse. I'm quite confident I'd not only survive, but enjoy every minute of it.

Lots of raves about joining the military... As a child, I wanted and dreamed about going to the Air Force Academy. Junk grades my entire life took care of that though. I'm still tempted to join even today, but I'm not sure I could do it as enlisted. I'd want to be an officer, and carry responsibility. Requiring a damn piece of paper for it though is seriously annoying me.

[Danisty]

Does the AF have a program where you can go from enlisted to officer? I know the Army does.

[Vortex]

I honestly don't know much about how that system works. I should probably sit down with a recruiter and ask. If I were to join the military though, I'd want to be Army, Navy, or Marines. The vast majority of Air Force positions would be sitting around on a base, and I'd prefer to be doing something a bit more exciting than that...

[thod]

Trust me, I know what you mean – and I do have that little piece of paper. The problem is that my piece of paper is; a) showing it's age, and b) doesn't have the right letters on it. what does that mean? I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and I work in the IT field. In IT, certifications are all that matters

Maybe for your first job. Yet I did work for several companies as an employee then spent 15 years as an independant IT contractor working in every type and size of company. I never sat a single IT exam or got any paper. Paper is for novices, you get work from your CV and the interview performance.

Try talking to any experienced IT person, they dont value paper at all. What matters is if you can show you have done similar work for other people. If I have written 5 similar projects for different clients thats a far bigger confidence factor than someone that has done an exam. Almost everything you do in IT is a one off job and no amount of training will teach you that, because it is a one off. You have either got what it takes or you havent.

If you realy want to succeed in IT, move jobs a lot. Its the only way you will gain the experience you need to become a master. The way your company does things, the tech it uses is such a small subset that you are limited no matter how good you become at that subset.

[Danisty]

Maybe for your first job. Yet I did work for several companies as an employee then spent 15 years as an independant IT contractor working in every type and size of company. I never sat a single IT exam or got any paper. Paper is for novices, you get work from your CV and the interview performance.

Try talking to any experienced IT person, they dont value paper at all. What matters is if you can show you have done similar work for other people. If I have written 5 similar projects for different clients thats a far bigger confidence factor than someone that has done an exam. Almost everything you do in IT is a one off job and no amount of training will teach you that, because it is a one off. You have either got what it takes or you havent.

If you realy want to succeed in IT, move jobs a lot. Its the only way you will gain the experience you need to become a master. The way your company does things, the tech it uses is such a small subset that you are limited no matter how good you become at that subset.I think a big part of the problem with this is that the people who know that a piece of paper isn't the most important thing are not usually the people doing the hiring.

[rwyatt365]

Maybe for your first job. Yet I did work for several companies as an employee then spent 15 years as an independant IT contractor working in every type and size of company. I never sat a single IT exam or got any paper. Paper is for novices, you get work from your CV and the interview performance.

Try talking to any experienced IT person, they dont value paper at all. What matters is if you can show you have done similar work for other people. If I have written 5 similar projects for different clients thats a far bigger confidence factor than someone that has done an exam. Almost everything you do in IT is a one off job and no amount of training will teach you that, because it is a one off. You have either got what it takes or you havent.

If you realy want to succeed in IT, move jobs a lot. Its the only way you will gain the experience you need to become a master. The way your company does things, the tech it uses is such a small subset that you are limited no matter how good you become at that subset.
Thanks for the thought thod, but I've been around a while. I've been in IT for over 25 years (in one way, or another), and my resume could fill 3 pages – single spaced, 8-point font, no fancy formatting (if I let it).

I know exactly what you mean by experienced IT people not valuing those certs – I've been one of them that didn't (value them, that is). I would rather that someone has "real-world" experience, than to have a bunch of paper behind their name. I'm not dissing anyone that does have the certs (more power to you), I just like seeing results not test scores.
I think a big part of the problem with this is that the people who know that a piece of paper isn't the most important thing are not usually the people doing the hiring.
…and that's where my dissatisfaction comes from. Every time I've gone to an interview where there was a "tech guy" that would ask some real questions, I got the job. Every time there was a pencil-pushing HR dweeb (excuse my bitterness) asking, "You say you don't have a CNE?!" I got a "Dear John" letter. Never mind getting past the screeners that only look for the buzzwords and alphabet-soup and toss those resumes that don’t have them.

[Danisty]

Thanks for the thought thod, but I've been around a while. I've been in IT for over 25 years (in one way, or another), and my resume could fill 3 pages – single spaced, 8-point font, no fancy formatting (if I let it).

I know exactly what you mean by experienced IT people not valuing those certs – I've been one of them that didn't (value them, that is). I would rather that someone has "real-world" experience, than to have a bunch of paper behind their name. I'm not dissing anyone that does have the certs (more power to you), I just like seeing results not test scores.

…and that's where my dissatisfaction comes from. Every time I've gone to an interview where there was a "tech guy" that would ask some real questions, I got the job. Every time there was a pencil-pushing HR dweeb (excuse my bitterness) asking, "You say you don't have a CNE?!" I got a "Dear John" letter. Never mind getting past the screeners that only look for the buzzwords and alphabet-soup and toss those resumes that don’t have them.I've had the same experience. I have an associates in accounting and I have had a couple of really good jobs where the interviewers actually knew accounting and knew what to ask me. They were plenty satisfied with my answers. In fact, I once got hired for a job that was advertised for people with bachelors degrees only. I just went in and interviewed anyway and got the job. Other times I've been interviewed by HR or some kind of office manager who doesn't know accounting and I don't get those jobs. Most of them are receptionist/bookkeeper jobs and they're wanting people with a 4-year degree. I'm sorry, but nobody with a 4-year degree is going to interview to be a receptionist/bookkeeper unless they are seriously desperate. In Savannah at least, I think they would require a bachelor's for a janitor if they could get away with it. I know they want secretaries with degrees. Come on...I can type 75 words a minute, I'm experienced with Microsoft Office and WordPerfect, I can answer the phone, and I can alphabetize. Anything else you want me to do, I can learn when I get there. :rolleyes:

[Uytuun]

I'm on my way to an MA in what is called here (Belgium) Language and Literature. We have to pick two languages, mine are English and German, and you get a lot of general stuff, grammar and literature. I am completely satisfied with my choice...why? Because I focus on English literature and literature deals with the whole of the human being, it addresses so many issues and for every paper I have to make, I can delve into an entirely new subject area and construct an inventive theory. It really is the one constant thing in my life that I know will always work out for me, it calms me down when I'm stressed out and it is challenging enough for me to be entirely focussed on it. One of the things I love about it is that it forces me to actually gather all my thoughts and present them in an orderly way...I'm notoriously confusing in conversation. It's also great fun to detect patterns in stories. I hope to make my future as a researcher in the literature field.

I have to admit, though, that from an early age onward, I've chosen (well, that's what it looks like in hindsight) to neglect sciences - not all, not biology for example, but let's say physics, chemistry and maths - so as to be able to do better at the humanities. I don't know if I'd be any good at them, but I suspect that if I really applied myself and started out from the very beginning, I might be able to make something of it. I feel that as I progress in the area I'm specialising in now, more room opens up for new areas and my interest in science rises...but not in an uncomfortable way, more like as a thing on the side.

So yeah, literature.

[Theoden]

WOW... this is me. I've actually joined the reserves, which satisfied a long-time interest in the military.

But, apart from that, I still don't have a cause. I like real-time operations.. coordinating people in intelligent ways.. thoughts?

[gallihand]

@Theoden

Management? Things with field agents might be more interesting. Like repair services, electric companies, etc.

[Solaris]

I'm on my way to an MA in what is called here (Belgium) Language and Literature. We have to pick two languages, mine are English and German, and you get a lot of general stuff, grammar and literature. I am completely satisfied with my choice...why? Because I focus on English literature and literature deals with the whole of the human being, it addresses so many issues and for every paper I have to make, I can delve into an entirely new subject area and construct an inventive theory. It really is the one constant thing in my life that I know will always work out for me, it calms me down when I'm stressed out and it is challenging enough for me to be entirely focussed on it. One of the things I love about it is that it forces me to actually gather all my thoughts and present them in an orderly way...I'm notoriously confusing in conversation. It's also great fun to detect patterns in stories. I hope to make my future as a researcher in the literature field.

I have to admit, though, that from an early age onward, I've chosen (well, that's what it looks like in hindsight) to neglect sciences - not all, not biology for example, but let's say physics, chemistry and maths - so as to be able to do better at the humanities. I don't know if I'd be any good at them, but I suspect that if I really applied myself and started out from the very beginning, I might be able to make something of it. I feel that as I progress in the area I'm specialising in now, more room opens up for new areas and my interest in science rises...but not in an uncomfortable way, more like as a thing on the side.

So yeah, literature.

I, too, have drifted into trying to figure out people. I'm pursuing a degree in Public Relations. I find it much more challenging to make a large company seem human and approachable, than to do complex math or science. The math/science stuff requires me to be alone too much (I left music for that reason...you sit in a tiny room alone and practice all day, or you fail...not for an E). No offense to all you math/sci people, it's just too much alone time for me, I do find bits of it all fascinating though.

[Santana28]

WOW... this is me. I've actually joined the reserves, which satisfied a long-time interest in the military.

But, apart from that, I still don't have a cause. I like real-time operations.. coordinating people in intelligent ways.. thoughts?

well, currently i'm a security officer/dispatcher who is trying to get on at an actual police department as a dispatcher...

i actually like the job quite a bit, and it is tailored to every one of my strong points (well, except the whole "expressing empathy" part). the only issues might possibly have are during down time - at my current position, i'm often the only one in the office all night long :) at a department i'll have to work with other dispatchers. at my job currently we have a LOT of down time, but thank god we have internet access. but when it is busy i find the job very rewarding because it allows me to truly control every aspect of operation as efficiently as i want to... its like playing chess...

btw... hows the military shaping up to be for you? did you get the monkey off your back?

[Xtal]

I'm sure it feels good (or tempting) to be in the army. It gives the feeling of comfort. Having a routine dictated by someone else, by a tradition even. Not having to take responsibilty for one's own choices. (Because you don't get to make many, not the kind that matter on a larger scale anyway.)

But deep down, does it fulfill your search, answer your need for purpose in life?

I'm a floater myself, have the feeling of being capable of doing anything if I just put my mind into it, but lacking the motivation to do so on any specific area. As a teenager I was tempted by the army as well. Then I started to think about what the army stands for, and decided it goes against my personal moral values. I thought: "I don't want to be a part of a system that's built on fear and has the capability to destroy lives". And then I set my thinking process aside for some reason and started floating.

Only recently have I come around to thinking reasons for why I'm floating. I'm beginning to realise that at least part of it is down to my own unwillingness to take responsibility for my own choices. I'm not so afraid of making a choice as I am of living up to it. Deep down I feel the need to make a difference, but am afraid to start that journey.


I'm afraid some people might find this post offending, after all we are at the core for one's will to exist... That's why I want to emphasise that I do not mean to flame or blame anyone. These are only my personal thoughts of the subject matter.

[Wapiti]

Okay, i have a problem and i'd like some input from like-minded people.

It seems the number one definition of an INTJ is that of a human being with an internal motivation and a drive for perfection. Often, INTJs find passion in particular pursuits such as mathematics or science, etc etc.

All of my life, i have had this desire and internal drive to do the best in anything i touch, and to push myself to face challenges head on and overcome them.

But it seems that most INTJs have always had a particular goal in life - something specific they strive for. I have never had that. Or i want to do everything. I'm not sure which is which anymore... everything and nothing all make the same difference to me.

There's never anything that has stopped me, nothing except for one thing - a life with no real ambition. I dont have any desire to make more money than i need to survive. I have many things i want to learn about, but nothing that i would feel comfortable spending my life pursuing while neglecting others. There is no career goal or field of work that stands out as something that i would want to do for the rest of my life, that would have me neglect others. I want to do everything, or nothing. So far...nothing is winning out.

My question is this - have you always had a particular goal or ambition in life? If not, how do you get by? For those of you who have perhaps spent years languishing as i have, only to discover that focus - how did you find it, and what let you know that it was "the one?"

Its really the most frustrating aspect of my life - knowing that i can do anything i want, but having nothing i desire...


Wow, I cannot say how much it helps me to hear someone else say that and to hear others have the same problem. This thread is blowing my mind. I will be thinking about this thread for days. wow wow wow

[Bossy Mom]

I have always been a perfectionist (like Howard Roark of the Fountainhead), but I'm mellowing.

For the last 10 years I have been making quilts. If anyone here has ever been to a quilt show and seen the beautiful quilts created by the love of the art, he or she knows what I am talking about. My driving ambition has been to create a perfect 1930's reproduction quilt. I also have a drive to keep traditions alive.

I made a Devil's Puzzle quilt with reproduction 30's fabric. It is full-size and took me a year to make. I was very happy with the result until I placed it on my bed to take pictures. One of the tiny blocks was facing the wrong way! Now, I could have fixed it, but I didn't. I know no one but a quilt judge would see the mistake. No one else has ever noticed! I now accept the fact that even though I strive to create the perfect quilt, I see the fault(s) -- the person who receives the quilt never sees any imperfection or mistake. He/she is grateful to receive the quilt I made them and is proud of it.

Wish me luck with the double wedding ring quilt I'm making my daughter.

[Santana28]

I'm sure it feels good (or tempting) to be in the army. It gives the feeling of comfort. Having a routine dictated by someone else, by a tradition even. Not having to take responsibilty for one's own choices. (Because you don't get to make many, not the kind that matter on a larger scale anyway.)

But deep down, does it fulfill your search, answer your need for purpose in life?

I'm a floater myself, have the feeling of being capable of doing anything if I just put my mind into it, but lacking the motivation to do so on any specific area. As a teenager I was tempted by the army as well. Then I started to think about what the army stands for, and decided it goes against my personal moral values. I thought: "I don't want to be a part of a system that's built on fear and has the capability to destroy lives". And then I set my thinking process aside for some reason and started floating.

Only recently have I come around to thinking reasons for why I'm floating. I'm beginning to realise that at least part of it is down to my own unwillingness to take responsibility for my own choices. I'm not so afraid of making a choice as I am of living up to it. Deep down I feel the need to make a difference, but am afraid to start that journey.


I'm afraid some people might find this post offending, after all we are at the core for one's will to exist... That's why I want to emphasise that I do not mean to flame or blame anyone. These are only my personal thoughts of the subject matter.

i have a different variation of that same problem i guess... i have ZERO issues with taking responsibility for my choices... i have no doubt in my choices after i have thought them through and have made them (usually highly effectively). what i fear is SUCCESS. what if i reach a goal and find out that it only causes more problems, or wasnt something i should have been spending so much time on? its easy to learn from mistakes and apply them... but overcoming "success" to me is much more difficult an issue. and especially without objective perspective.

like, my marriage for one. i grew up in an unhappy nontraditional family, so logically i set out to find and create a so-called "traditional, normal" family for myself. I am absolutely miserable and realize only after years of trial and error how many ways i went against my core values in making this choice. now, i suffer the repercussions of getting what i thought i wanted. boy, i wont make THAT mistake again! :)

[Wapiti]

like, my marriage for one. i grew up in an unhappy nontraditional family, so logically i set out to find and create a so-called "traditional, normal" family for myself. I am absolutely miserable and realize only after years of trial and error how many ways i went against my core values in making this choice. now, i suffer the repercussions of getting what i thought i wanted. boy, i wont make THAT mistake again! :)

I think I understand what your saying there. I did come from a happy traditional family though. I think that I did not completely understand and define what it was I actually wanted and needed in a relationship and now I must deal with the repercussions as well, which are slowly killing me inside but thats a whole other story. I won't make the mistake again if I ever get the opportunity, but thats a thought I don't really want to deal with now.

[denaria]

I make quilts too, and have learnt to accept mistakes. "Finished is better than perfect." Mind you, that missed quilting line in the last one is bugging me - maybe I will have to put it right.

[sbella]

My biggest issue in life has been that I get so caught up in details that I don't make it to certain deadlines.

[denaria]

My biggest issue in life has been that I get so caught up in details that I don't make it to certain deadlines.
And as for delegating.....no way! You spend hours explaining, hours re-explaining and demonstrating, hours nagging and scrutinising, and then they screw it up and you have to re-do it anyway.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

A big fat ditto to all of the above!!!! Just one more thing about being an INTJ to drive us crazy.

[JTG]

"Finished is better than perfect."

No. Absolutely not. I wish finished was better than perfect, because some things i flat out don't do if i know i won't be able to do them to my own satisfaction. My mind can't handle looking at something i've done if i'm not satisfied with it.

I almost didn't graduate high school on time, but i was still voted most intelligent. It's because i have a hard time turning in or finishing assignments if i'm not happy with my product.

And as for delegating.....no way! You spend hours explaining, hours re-explaining and demonstrating, hours nagging and scrutinising, and then they screw it up and you have to re-do it anyway.

This is true though :(

[Nomad]

STOP READING MY MIND!! :stunned:

Ok, this is really too weird. Like most that have posted here, I know that I have the ability to do anything that I really put my mind to. I also have not (after 50+ years) sat down and "plotted a course". Even in my chosen field (IT) I am a generalist and have functioned in a number of different capacities. I know that this has hampered me to a large degree in advancement because "regular" people don't believe that anyone can be successful at a number of things at the same time. I've learned to live with that (I don't like it, but I've learned to live with it).

Heh. I'm reminded of a long ago conversation at a party (Yes, a party) with an extremely well respected social psychologist who lectured at Berkeley. Toward the end of the conversation, I was invited to a conference and told that my ideas were fascinating and if I had detailed them further in my doctoral thesis, he would love a chance to read it. He was quite embarrassed to find that I had never been to college.To his credit, he strongly encouraged me to obtain a degree in psychology. I had to ask him why, if my ideas were so good, and he said because people suck. I laughed so hard my beer came out my nose.

That being said, I have much the same problem, except I've done the military thing, then corporate security, which would seem like a good deal, building an efficient methodology with life or death stakes and being utterly coldblooded about it. What happened was that i started looking at the system that i was helping to prop up, and I realized it didn't work. Now I have a nagging desire to save the world. I don't want to run it, I just want it to be a sustainable, efficient system. Nature got it right, I want society to do the same.

-Nomad

[JTG]

Now I have a nagging desire to save the world. I don't want to run it, I just want it to be a sustainable, efficient system.

This definitely strikes a chord with me as well. No matter what job i have, i always have to get my hands in everything. I never want to be in charge, i just want to fix the flaws and inefficiencies i see. People think i'm being bossy but i'm just trying to help, and then they don't understand why i hate being in charge.

The problem is that when you fix something, people expect you to be the one to maintain or lead it. If that was how things really worked, half of us here would already be ruling the world and miserable doing it.

[coffeeloverfreak]

Some of what you're going through isn't about being an INTJ, it's just about being a certain age or at a certain point in your life.

Most people question what their "purpose" or "cause" is at some point. But you just try different things until you find the answer.

[Tom]

My question is this - have you always had a particular goal or ambition in life? If not, how do you get by? For those of you who have perhaps spent years languishing as i have, only to discover that focus - how did you find it, and what let you know that it was "the one?"


Here is what I've found:

I do think that things are either eternal, or ultimately meaningless. If there is no afterlife, and the universe expands forever and cools to the point that no conceivable life can exist, all our goals and their realizations will end up meaning nothing to anyone, since no one will be alive to appraise them!

Solomon (a brilliant Jewish King) is generally attributed with writing the Book of Ecclesiasties some several thousand years ago..

In this book, a king chronicles how he realized the general principle of things eternal and came across an answer to your questions.

I'll throw in a few quotes so you get the gist of the book, but I recommend reading all ~6 pages of it if you want more insight on his thoughts ;)

He starts out early by saying "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity".

This king set out and actually accomplished many things such as building parks, vineyards, hoarding wealth, partying and getting drunk, sleeping around etc. He pursued pleasure, "good works" and all types of passtimes. His goal evidently was to try to scratch an itch he had, and he went at it full bore.

After all this goal achieving he writes "I considered all my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after the wind and there was no profit under the sun".

So - after months (or years) of hard work, cynicism, and contemplation what answer did he find?

It's contained in the last two sentences of what the author wrote.

What he wrote means to me is this: I am free to do whatever my hands find to do and to do them with all my might. As far as fretting about the "meaning of my works" - I simply don't anymore. I don't because earthly goals and their accomplishments aren't the end all to anything.

The end all Solomon eludes to is that we are to be known and know, and to be loved by and love God. That's it. I also might add, that this relationship is to be exceedingly wonderful.

As far as the works themselves, God is able to keep that which we commit to Him until the day we leave this earth.

[Learning]

I dont have any desire to make more money than i need to survive.

My question is this - have you always had a particular goal or ambition in life? If not, how do you get by? For those of you who have perhaps spent years languishing as i have, only to discover that focus - how did you find it, and what let you know that it was "the one?"

Its really the most frustrating aspect of my life - knowing that i can do anything i want, but having nothing i desire...
This is very familiar! I've spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what I should be doing, what I want to do, and what is a good motive to carry it out. That's actually what got me to take a personality test in the first place.

I'll share some of the advice that's been given to me.

In studying this out, I've found a common strand of advice. I've heard over & over again that looking to what you loved as a child is a great place to find what you love most. Maybe even ask around- people who knew you as a kid- so you can refresh your memory.

Also, where motive is concerned... what means the most to you in the long run? Do you more than anything want... maybe to see your son happy & living life to the full? Then maybe being an excellent provider/parent is your main m.o. in life. (This may even include returning to further your education which would be a great example to him, while at the same time benefitting the both of you as you'd be more fulfilled & possibly a better provider.)

Whatever you end up discovering that you love & can commit to, you may end up finding that the way in which you carry it out may change throughout your life.


Sooo... Find:

1. Your most loved activity/interest, by doing just what you're doing & asking yourself questions... taking quizzes, etc. You may have to pursue this for a while before it becomes clear (I did). (Try to be patient with yourself- as annoying as that sounds!)

2. Your true inner motive. Who/What would you really like to have around you, leave behind, have made a life's worth of contribution to, accomplished, left debt free when you're old/on your death bed? (This of course may include spiritual beliefs.)

3. (When you find the above two things)... the way you choose to carry them out will probably be less important because you'll be more concerned about the big picture (doing what you love, and having a specific purpose in life).

For example, if you just loooove gardening, and spent many enjoyable hours as a child doing that with your grandpa, and you can see yourself doing that...happily most days ...growing in it ... even having your own organic label. Whether you work growing your own stuff & having a small local market, or you decide to go nationwide won't really be the issue. You're loving what you do, and are finding creative ways to make it work for you. It's fulfilling, happy, and a labor of love. (And if/when you lose motivation/perspective it can be easily found again once you first find out what it is.)

I also just want to say again, that finding the answers to these questions may take some serious digging on your part... and time. "Simple" questions though they are. I hope that helps.

[denaria]

No. Absolutely not. I wish finished was better than perfect, because some things i flat out don't do if i know i won't be able to do them to my own satisfaction. My mind can't handle looking at something i've done if i'm not satisfied with it.

I almost didn't graduate high school on time, but i was still voted most intelligent. It's because i have a hard time turning in or finishing assignments if i'm not happy with my product.



Maybe it's because I'm not so emphatically INTJ as some others on this forum; I do have a real perfectionist drive but as long as I know that I'm making progress towards a more perfect outcome I can accept a non-perfect interim situation. For example I could put up with the truly awful kitchen that came with the current house as long as I knew that the plans and timetable were in place to get it right (MY plans and timetable, of course - no way would I delegate something like that to a mere kitchen designer). And now I have my new kitchen and apart from the couple of items which the cabinet maker thought I'd got wrong and "improved", it's pretty bloody good.

So with the quiltmaking, I just assume that I'm getting better all the time, and don't worry too much about the current project - I'll learn from it for the next one.

[zibber]

I'm having that 'wow' moment too, while reading this thread, even more than in other threads on this forum.

I'm sure it feels good (or tempting) to be in the army. It gives the feeling of comfort. Having a routine dictated by someone else, by a tradition even. Not having to take responsibilty for one's own choices. (Because you don't get to make many, not the kind that matter on a larger scale anyway.)

But deep down, does it fulfill your search, answer your need for purpose in life?

I'm a floater myself, have the feeling of being capable of doing anything if I just put my mind into it, but lacking the motivation to do so on any specific area. As a teenager I was tempted by the army as well. Then I started to think about what the army stands for, and decided it goes against my personal moral values. I thought: "I don't want to be a part of a system that's built on fear and has the capability to destroy lives". And then I set my thinking process aside for some reason and started floating.

Only recently have I come around to thinking reasons for why I'm floating. I'm beginning to realise that at least part of it is down to my own unwillingness to take responsibility for my own choices. I'm not so afraid of making a choice as I am of living up to it. Deep down I feel the need to make a difference, but am afraid to start that journey.

I'm afraid some people might find this post offending, after all we are at the core for one's will to exist... That's why I want to emphasise that I do not mean to flame or blame anyone. These are only my personal thoughts of the subject matter.

This is me, exactly. All the qualities described in this thread, minus the longing to be in the military.

I'm just gonna go ahead and quote what I posted in another thread earlier, because this is where I should have put it:

I'm utterly unable to choose one particular subject to specialize in. In high school, it was easy, as I just chose all the courses that were placed highest on every list (physics, chemistry, mathematics, latin, etc) and cruised through with no effort at all. (Not very stimulating, and terrible for my discipline.) When faced with a choice after high school, I went for the most broad package of exact sciences, but eventually quit altogether out of a sort of feeling that I had gotten all the knowledge out of it that I wanted to. I then went on to make a drastic switch to Japanese language and culture, which was fun but impulsive, and didn't last either. For the past 2.5 years I've been studying art history with some courses in philosophy, and once again it seems utterly impossible to specialize. Every time I explore a topic, eventually my interest comes to an end and I move on. Being 24, it's getting slightly unnerving. When thinking about the future, I now have a vague scenario in my head where I'll do some not-too-challenging job to pay the bills (some kind of tourguide would be ideal, since my public speaking skills have gone from utterly horrible to top shelf), and basically keep exploring different field of knowledge..

(Lack of motivation is a big factor too, I should say, originating out of a lack of stimulation from never having to really try, and currently fed by my bad marijuana habit.)

To add to it: I have indeed started to reflect on what drove me as a child, and honestly, most of my time was spent drawing absurd cartoons and comics. I started to do this for a university mag and have been getting great responses to the content, but the only actual (ie. paying) magazine I contacted was 50/50 on my stuff, due to some of it being too absurd and the artwork being somewhat inconsistent. The point is, every time I attempt to work on improving my graphic consistency and making my content more accessible, it just starts to drain the fun out of it. Making a buck with that kind of work seems appealing in many ways, but I don't want to end up having to conform to mass standards and spoiling my longest running hobby like that.

[bmartinl]

Here is my process in a nut shell:

- loved science, particularly the life sciences as a 2 year old
- excelled in academics in HS, nearly failed out of college first year, spent 2 more years doing nothing special
- woke up, started taking life seriously (what am I going to do)?
- uncle is a doctor, talked to him about it
- decided to go to medical school

I think the secret for INTJ's is to set high goals. We really are some of the brightest people in society and we can excel in ANYTHING. Pick something that engages your mind and forces you to learn, and you'll never be bored.

In my case, the extreme amount of energy output involved in a medical career is tolerable because I won't be bored. That was a conscious decision I had to make.

The best advice I ever received on the way has been - do NOT sell yourself short. Keep open to all options, but be actively looking for something. Don't be afraid to set seemingly impossible goals.

[changos]

We INTJ will go goal after goal. In fact every type. Life is not static and nothing last forever. You will find new goals in time (worth working for it) Perhaps some goals important for you mean something that could be achieved and that's it... But life itself means to survive. Every year...

Stay busy and make contact with other people: you will find new objectives.