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Knucklecallus
05-11-2009, 05:00 AM
Hello,

If you don't want to read the whole thing, skip down to the supercondensed version. Please understand that writing this out helped me understand what happened, so that is why it turned out so long.


I have a particularly strange dynamic to share. I am an xNFP male, a senior in a private high school. I am compassionate, a deep thinker with a quick smile. About 13 months ago, an INTJ girl was very into me. She began to send me text messages asking me to coffee, flirting as we passed on the way to the barn (our cafeteria). We would talk over AIM about Hillary Clinton and Obama, discussing such topics readily and continuously. We both are in the same class, and have been going to the same school for 14 years, but last year was the first time we actually communicated. Anyway, seeing as this was the height of my individualistic, Emersonian / Twain philosophical soul search period, I decided that I didn't need a relationship. My decision was probably more ethics based than I remember, and I probably decided that I shouldn't try to have a relationship with someone that I wasn't all that attracted to. Don't get me wrong, she is a very beautiful woman, with a strong will, softly sharp features, pale complexion, elegant figure, brown eyes that flash a clever intelligence and depth. I mean, she is the daughter of a surgeon, loves biology as much as I do. But for some reason, I held off.

She obviously respected my intellect, liked my passion, and wanted to learn more.

So, June comes around and most of my close friends have graduated and gone on summer adventures. I begin to wonder why I didn't follow through with the girl. I text her, wondering if she would like to meet up for coffee. She responds, ecstatic, and ends up planning out a date during which we go to an iMAX theater to watch a film about Dinosaurs. How cool is that? I decide to hold her hand, and as the movie ends, I go to kiss her, expecting a peck, and end up kissing more passionately than anticipated. We walk out hand in hand and drive to a brilliant thai restaurant, where we sit across from each other and simply talked. I do not even remember what about, but for at least an hour, we smiled and connected without ever experiencing a lapse in conversation or an awkward pause. She has to leave, and I walk her to her car and she kisses me, eyes shining and laughing, saying that she wants to see me the next day.

So, a perfect date.

I have to leave the next day for a backpacking trip, and tell her this. I tell two of my best friends that night, one who is an ENFP/J, one year my junior. The other is an immature I/ESTP, I am sure that he is something along the lines of that. Pretty much, he satisfies all of the indulgence that I try to avoid. And to this latter friend, I emphasize the fact that he cannot tell anyone, under the threat of death. And if does tell anyone, I made sure that he understood that there was one person that he could never tell. He comes in later.

(3 weeks later now, after my trips...) I turn on my phone to hear a message from her explaining that she didn't know if what we did was right. She sounded anxious, and said that we should talk about what happened, to decide if we really meant it. I call back and leave a message, explaining that I am up for anything, and just want to communicate. No response from the girl. I decide that the ball is in her court, and if she wants to follow through, she can (that hurt).

A month later, I receive a call from the guy that I told best friend #2 to absolutely never tell about the date. He explains that best friend #2 told him in the hot tub. So, the guy calls the girl, asking if it is true, and she denies it and says that I kissed her but she broke it off. The guy says that she sounded panicked. I try to get as much information as I can, but that is pretty much all.

So, I try to call her, but she doesn't pick up. A few weeks later, we start to text again, but on a superficial layer. She seems different, elevated. Not the same person? I get the feeling that she thinks she has me under her thumb, and so I overcompensate by shutting her off right when the school year begins. An awkward, unsure separation drifts in, and we don't talk for months. Finally, around December, we start talking and end up having an incredible conversation in the library after school one day. I sit down by her to help her with her English paper. She accepts my offer and I work through her thesis, spinning off new ideas, which eventually evolves into a discussion about the nonexistence of abstract concepts like the mind, society, relationships, love, connections. Ironically, we end up connecting, two minds finally finding a separate mind that thinks about the same things in the same depth. Something akin to making mental love... sounds strange. I could feel, see, I knew the way things could have been if we had continued to talk more often, went on a few dates, just had allowed things to continue naturally. Talking with my English teacher, I brought up my continued frustration at my inability to properly connect with class when I taught. To my surprise, he told me that the girl had just told him that she loved my classes, because I asked questions that made the class freeze and think. So she respected my mind again. In fact, I am pretty sure she transferred into my 2nd semester english class because I was in it.

I asked her if she wanted to hang out, and she answered sincerely (emotional intuition is fun to have), replying yes. She also is the president of the senior class, runs a beekeeping business, has to stay on top of an incredible amount of academic work (great private school we go to), college applications, on and on. She was busy. So we tried to make a date during which we could hang out, and she gave me a friday that was two weeks away.

I thought she was going to follow through with the plans, but in retrospect, I have no idea why I didn't follow through. I wondered if she really was interested, and so didn't pressure the plans. We just talked casually for the next two weeks, and the friday came and went. Things turned awkward again, I tried calling her, didn't pick up, left a message saying that we should at least talk.

Nothing.

And so after a few months of this, we start talking again and by this time, I have realized that this relationship, even a friendship, is not worth chasing. I do realize that I desperately want to know what happened, and so try to set up another time during which we could hang out. She promises to give me a date, and never does. I figure screw it, and she starts to insult my ideas in English class by acting as if they hold no weight, no value. I feel like she tried to argue against my claims just for the sake of arguing. She becomes totally distant, shuts me off, but at the same time, I still feel that spark from the first date.

And after a week of mental anguish, I decide that I will regret inaction over action, and ask her to prom, explaining that it would be the perfect time for us to talk. her body language says yes (eyes shining, blushing, laughing, hair playing) but she tells me that she already turned down another guy and promised herself as a freshman that she wouldn't go to prom as a senior. She eventually says that she will think about it, and school ends for the day. I receive a text later saying that she can't because family friends are coming to town, and says that "I really shouldn't want to go with her anyways, haha." I responded, explaining that I didn't care at all about prom, but just wanted to have a time during which we could talk about what had happened. Inaction would haunt us more than action, i said. I apologized for what happened 11 months ago, and told her that all of this was because of communication past due.

She never responded, never came to prom, she received my text messages, and when I called her once, she didn't pick up. The day after prom, at a fundraiser, she gives me her phone so I can call my replacement for the cotton candy machine, and she has what I think is her address book but is actually her recent calls list open. I flick through it, annoyed by the untidiness, and realize that all of the names are in black, except for one in red - mine. The only one she didn't respond to. Blatantly ignoring a sincere request for closure, apology. I wasn't actually surprised, or hurt. I already knew the truth.

And now, I am not pursuing this any further, not one bit. I really apologize for the ridiculously long post, with a story that isn't that interesting. But I wanted to hear the INTJ forum take. First, I guess, I'll explain my take.

SUPERCONDENSEDVERSION

Things were great in the beginning, but I screwed it up and she thought I treated it like a hook up, and that hurt, festered, grew, never was addressed, continued to haunt us, I didn't follow through, and now she likes me but has separated herself because

a) she doesn't want to get hurt

b) she doesn't want to start a relationship before summer comes

c) just really doesn't like me, and I have been a stalking fool all along.
(definitely can be true, but doesn't really make sense, given our history)



I know I overthink things, and that it sounds like I just couldn't let this go, but for the last 4 months, all I wanted to do was get together once to talk about what had happened. to figure things out, to communicate. Can someone please shed some insight not into my idiocy, but into what she really felt and thought all along? I know this is the job of the NF, but INTJs seem to understand each other better than I.

tntblaster
05-11-2009, 05:24 AM
Option B seems to be the most logical IMO. In my own experience, I didn't want a relationship with anyone after leaving high school and transitioning to college. I'd say you need to move on, as getting an answer to your question can really only come from the girl who's ignoring you.

As far as knowing what she felt and thought all along... I'm no help.

loosefanbelt
05-11-2009, 05:54 AM
Honey...

old crone here ;)

In some ways I know that you want to understand her, think you might have understood what she felt, what is in her mind and heart.

Yet, we can truly NEVER know such things. They will always be a mystery. Sometimes we can directly ask and get a direct answer... these are the healthiest relationships. Often we ask and there are smoke, mirrors, confusion, deception, self protection...

"...I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer."

Rainer Maria Rilke, 1903 in Letters to a Young Poet.

At the end of the day, there is just you and your feelings. And you have to always ask, at the end of the day, how this makes YOU feel. You feel confused, mixed messages, so on. You feel empowered, cared about, thought of, advocated for.

Because you deserve a partner that can give you all of that.

You need to find someone where the messages are clear and that they make you feel good about yourself and your partner.

If this person IS that person, it will come around. But I have seen NFs go down this road before where they try to love a slippery love and it is a sad thing. If she is that person, it will happen. But it will not happen because you intuited and somehow hit the magic button, it will happen because she feels for you and has cleared out enough noise to make it so.

Blessings, friend...

JohnDoe
05-11-2009, 06:17 AM
Edit7: I'm going to tell you what you need to hear as opposed to what is going to feel good, so I'll apologize for sounding like an asshole in advance.

You screwed up by not following up your successful date with more dates immediately, thus breaking momentum. In particular you should have found a way to talk to her while on your trip. In the absence of communication people become paranoid, and start assuming the worst. With your 3 week break in communications, she convinced herself of some worst case scenario, and nothing you can do will remedy this. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want, chalk this up to a learning experience and write off any chances you think you might have.

Edit: Also, for fucks sake, nothing preceded by "and this is a secret don't tell anyone ever please thanks" has ever been very secret. Don't run around talking about your relationships with people, because people will run their mouths off, even if they don't intend to actively screw you over.

Edit2: Also, people don't like people who kiss and tell... this may have shot your chances to hell.



JohnDoe added to this post, 4 minutes and 52 seconds later...

The day after prom, at a fundraiser, she gives me her phone so I can call my replacement for the cotton candy machine, and she has what I think is her address book but is actually her recent calls list open. I flick through it, annoyed by the untidiness, and realize that all of the names are in black, except for one in red - mine. The only one she didn't respond to. Blatantly ignoring a sincere request for closure, apology. I wasn't actually surprised, or hurt. I already knew the truth.


Also, seriously, spying on her by running through her call records? What the fuck? This is so far beyond acceptable that I shouldn't have to tell you.

Edit: Supercondensed version: Was A, now is C.

Edit3:

I asked her if she wanted to hang out, and she answered sincerely (emotional intuition is fun to have), replying yes. She also is the president of the senior class, runs a beekeeping business, has to stay on top of an incredible amount of academic work (great private school we go to), college applications, on and on. She was busy. So we tried to make a date during which we could hang out, and she gave me a friday that was two weeks away.

The bad thing about emotional intuition is that you have to master not letting what you want to be true get in the way of what is true. As an INFJ, I had to learn to deal with this problem. You used your intuition here to justify what you wanted to be true, not what was actually happening. It should have been increasingly obvious after this point that she was not interested in dating you anymore for whatever reason.

Edit4

And after a week of mental anguish, I decide that I will regret inaction over action, and ask her to prom, explaining that it would be the perfect time for us to talk. her body language says yes (eyes shining, blushing, laughing, hair playing) but she tells me that she already turned down another guy and promised herself as a freshman that she wouldn't go to prom as a senior. She eventually says that she will think about it, and school ends for the day. I receive a text later saying that she can't because family friends are coming to town, and says that "I really shouldn't want to go with her anyways, haha." I responded, explaining that I didn't care at all about prom, but just wanted to have a time during which we could talk about what had happened. Inaction would haunt us more than action, i said. I apologized for what happened 11 months ago, and told her that all of this was because of communication past due.

Ok, thing you need to know. If someone really wants to go on a date with someone, they will find a way to make it happen. Second: Its unwise to apologize for something that happened a very long time in the past. Its something where even if she was upset about it, apologizing now will not help. You can not undo changes in perspective that come from something you did.

Edit6: I agree with everything fanbelt said.

Vagrant
05-11-2009, 09:51 AM
Everything fanbelt said is true.

If you're gonna get this kind of crazy runaround for... one of your friends being a loudmouth several months in the past... it's not the kind of relationship you want. Sounds like you've really gotten the shaft end of things for not doing anything seriously wrong. If she's not willing to discuss that with you and instead leads you on this whole BS trip, it really is time to move on.

Your mind will always wonder... but it really is best to let the mystery remain so, because the truth is probably worse than your mind could concoct.

(oh, and of your options, A seems to be the most plausible. I don't know what your friend #2 said, and how the people he told took it, but it seems she was told something very negative which was not the case. I suspect she really is afraid of getting hurt again (from whatever she heard). All the signs are there that she likes you... but she is avoiding you, intentionally.)

JohnDoe
05-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Everything fanbelt said is true.

If you're gonna get this kind of crazy runaround for... one of your friends being a loudmouth several months in the past... it's not the kind of relationship you want. Sounds like you've really gotten the shaft end of things for not doing anything seriously wrong. If she's not willing to discuss that with you and instead leads you on this whole BS trip, it really is time to move on.

Your mind will always wonder... but it really is best to let the mystery remain so, because the truth is probably worse than your mind could concoct.

(oh, and of your options, A seems to be the most plausible. I don't know what your friend #2 said, and how the people he told took it, but it seems she was told something very negative which was not the case. I suspect she really is afraid of getting hurt again (from whatever she heard). All the signs are there that she likes you... but she is avoiding you, intentionally.)
I'd like to point out that all of your post would have been avoided if he hadn't immediately run around and told his friends the intimate details of his date. Its not hard to construct a chain of events as follows: friend tells other friend, details get back to her, except now you sound like a jackass bragging about his conquest, your on a trip so she thinks about the ways she fucked up for a few weeks, and builds some complicated picture in her head where you were just out to use her, hence she avoids you. Lesson: Don't run your mouth off about how your dates go. Ever. What is the best thing that can happen from talking about your dates? Your friends congratulate you on the hot chick your dating. Worst case: this. There is NEVER any upside to discussing relationships with your friends. Loose lips sink ships.

Look: it basically comes down to this. People are fundamentally insecure. So when you left immediately after making out with her, you gave her time for her mind to think of the worst case scenario. Thus she ends up thinking that the worst case scenario is reality, and avoids you. And the worst thing is that because you didn't necessarily do anything wrong, theres nothing you can do to fix this. Its a mental model shes built up in her head that is completely divorced from reality. Its like when people believed three years ago that housing prices can only go up. Its what they believe, but its completely divorced from reality. Good luck convincing anyone at the time that housing prices could go down though.

Edit:
Don't feel too bad about this. Sometimes you can play the hand your dealt perfectly and still lose.

lambpox
05-11-2009, 03:02 PM
Its a mental model shes built up in her head that is completely divorced from reality. Its like when people believed three years ago that housing prices can only go up. Its what they believe, but its completely divorced from reality. Good luck convincing anyone at the time that housing prices could go down though.

As an INTJ female, the above quote really hits home. I like to plan. Sometimes I plan and imagine, I dream and conspire. When I like someone, I invest my time in them; and that "mental model" is something I try to follow through with, even if it is divorced from reality. Let's just say I'm a no-bullshit type of person and put my guard up when I feel any sudden bout of insecurity. It all refers back to that "worst case scenario"; I let my mind wander and I fear for what would become. So to protect myself, and to not waste time (like you said...INTJ females ARE busy!) I just abandon the cause all together.

altoid
05-11-2009, 03:46 PM
If I were the girl in question, I would have the impression that you weren't really all that interested in a real relationship. If I had the perfect date and was excited about seeing someone again, and even if I know he's traveling, I'm going to be a little concerned if I don't hear anything from them for almost a month. It doesn't take much for a person who is genuinely interested to initiate some random, friendly contact. But beyond that, I'm going to be pretty ticked if some other guy (who shouldn't be involved in this, IMO) is calling me to verify the details of our date. As others have said, it sounds like bragging about a conquest. And it seems like all of this was followed up with some halfhearted attempts at communication and/or another date. I would feel more like someone you were attempting to keep on a back burner for "in case of emergency" boredom rather than someone who truly captured your interest.

Speaking for myself, it sometimes takes a little time for me to let down my walls long enough to let other people in. It takes a bit for me to trust someone enough to let that happen, and if I detect what I perceive to be mental games or anything else that just feels a little off, the odds of me letting you past my emotional defenses decrease dramatically. I'm getting the feeling you weren't really all that interested in her, and I think she could have easily gotten that feeling too. Even if she is/was interested herself, she's probably going to protect herself first rather than jump at something that sounds like it has potential to hurt her in the end.

BitsAndBytes
05-11-2009, 04:48 PM
Be aware that she'll take you literally.

I'm an INTJ female, and when I say, "I want to see you again," I mean it. If I say, "Call me on Thursday" and you don't, I'll interpret it as a lack of interest. If you're into me, you'll find 30 seconds to say hello over the phone.

When I say, "Don't call me for a few days, I'll be busy," this doesn't mean that I'm not interested in talking to you, it means that I've decided that it would be too costly to talk to you for a few days in terms of my time, work, or emotional state. It's highly unlikely that it has anything to do with you.

Gabrielle
05-11-2009, 06:50 PM
INTJ females are, after all, females. Here are a few things that you did wrong (this is just my opinion, so feel free to ignore)

1. You told someone. This might be just me but I like to keep my relationships relatively hushed until it's firmly established (I didn't tell anyone I was dating somebody until 3 months after).

2. There is a possibility that she is just not ready yet. For some people a kiss is just a kiss, but for others a kiss is one step away from bye bye virginity. I don't know about her, but for me my first kiss with my boyfriend was a HUGE thing. From the sounds of it, it seems... unplanned. My guess is that she wasn't expecting the kiss, and just went with the flow, then woke up in the morning and thought "I wasn't supposed to do that!" e.t.c.

3. When she was "insulting your ideas", the possibility that in her prioritised thought process your thoughts were trivial. This doesn't mean that you're trivial, just that for her, the thought itself was trivial.

4. We tend to read too much into signs then get it shot down (or maybe that's just me). But we tend to promise ourselves never to make the same mistake, and therefore need about 100 times more condensed messages to actually confirm. This maybe the reason why we're bad at relationships - we need blaring neon signs. I kept ignoring signs from my boyfriend, trying not to read into it and thinking it a casual friendship, until he lost all patience and had to shout at me that he liked me. You never said anything. From the looks of it, you're on the fine line of "friendship/like you", and we tend to think that if it's that line, it's friendship.

5. You didn't "pressure" to follow through, you say. This, to me, rings as "it was an idea but it's not that important to me". If I'm not important to you, then I don't want to give up too much energy on an investment that I won't reap the rewards for. Sounds very pragmatic, but for us relationships are a huge investment in terms of energy.

My suggestion is this: Do you really have anything to lose with her? No. Worst is that you're on a bad side of her, and from the looks of it you might be. So why don't you corner her and talk to her sincerely? Tell her everything you felt (basically what you wrote here). The most harm you can do is estrange her further, but you two are currently estranged (that's what I garnered), so you can't really lose anything.

Be direct and straight. DON'T play mind games.

And if you aren't pursuing this any further, don't think about it. Because you can never get the correct answer from us. We can make guesses, but that's it.

jcasetnl
05-11-2009, 08:17 PM
Well, from some of the things you said, you definitely pissed her off. Particularly her attacking you in english class. It can take quite a bit to get an INTJ on the offensive in a truly mean-spirited way, so I'm pretty sure you pissed her off pretty good, or at a minimum, she considers you a flake.

Honestly, no offense, but you seem to like the drama a bit, and INTJs are largely NOT into drama. There is enough drama in their own heads constantly turning problems and projects over. They don't need any of the manufactured kind.

Kele-De
05-11-2009, 08:51 PM
Wow... are young adults today really so eloquently dramatic? I think I would have been an absolute mess and possibly even further neglected my studies if I had access to so many different forms of communication at that age. All I had was a ball point pen and notebook paper for note passing. I couldn't even reach my high school sweatheart on the phone because he had three brothers, a land line and call waiting didn't exist. But I will never forget the ee Cummings poem he transcribed for me with the curly-Q, flowery "I love you" written at the end.

Privacy is golden for this INTJ female. I would love to have an old fashioned for my eyes only hand written letter writing romance with a man. I think this lost art of letter writing is highly improbable.

I don't have any advice except to keep hard copies of your beautiful thoughts and...

slow...down...those...horses.

dogwoodlover
05-12-2009, 02:11 AM
The moral of this story is: don't tell EXXXs or ISFXs your secrets. Ever.

lambpox
05-12-2009, 03:04 PM
The moral of this story is: don't tell EXXXs or ISFXs your secrets. Ever.

Yes yes yes yes. Speaking from past experiences, of course. haha!

Vagrant
05-12-2009, 11:57 PM
Wow... are young adults today really so eloquently dramatic? I think I would have been an absolute mess and possibly even further neglected my studies if I had access to so many different forms of communication at that age. All I had was a ball point pen and notebook paper for note passing. I couldn't even reach my high school sweatheart on the phone because he had three brothers, a land line and call waiting didn't exist. But I will never forget the ee Cummings poem he transcribed for me with the curly-Q, flowery "I love you" written at the end.

Privacy is golden for this INTJ female. I would love to have an old fashioned for my eyes only hand written letter writing romance with a man. I think this lost art of letter writing is highly improbable.

I don't have any advice except to keep hard copies of your beautiful thoughts and...

slow...down...those...horses.

I always do wonder how much drama that exists nowadays would be reduced if the only forms of communication we had were either were to be there in person, or use letters.

The moral of this story is: don't tell EXXXs or ISFXs your secrets. Ever.

I completely agree, that seems to be the case with this story -- you did nothing wrong but tell your friends. That's the only thing you did wrong... and see what it's done. :P

Double Victory
05-13-2009, 04:21 AM
I can completely understand what she did and why she did it. She of course probably has her own reasons, but if it were me, well....

First thing, there's a strong sense of individuality in an INTJ girl. She likes to be strong, all around. If she thought for one moment that you weren't being serious, she would have been offended, and even if she liked you her pride would not have allowed her to date you. She probably tried to maintain a regular friendship, partly because she did like you a little bit, partly because she was trying to be mature about it, but in the end she gave up when she realized what a mess she had made of things (how emotional, irrational, etc, etc she had been). She wants to forget she ever made mistakes, and start over without your existence so she can try to be perfect again.

Personally I've done this several times. Occasionally after a year or two I'm fine with the guy again and we turn out to be great friends, but in the cases where we've actually been somewhat involved or I feel like he's in any way taken advantage of me liking him, it's something that I remember forever and I lose respect for that guy (despite whether or not he deserved it) and I just don't want to see him at all.

A lot of the problem with these types of things come with being infatuated. When you're infatuated, you become highly irrational and are totally up for doing things you wouldn't normally do, and once the infatuation wears off (which it always does) you end up realizing you were acting like a fool. INTJ girls don't like it when other people witness them acting like fools.

Tough Love
05-13-2009, 04:32 AM
I always do wonder how much drama that exists nowadays would be reduced if the only forms of communication we had were either were to be there in person, or use letters.


IMO people play 'games' and such as a method of self protection (dont give out more than your getting is an impression i keep getting from people/ media - oh yes media) and thats what they spend what is supposed to be the 'honeymoon period' of a relationship doing, instead of chatting about things and developing communication techniques. I believe that there is so much out there that isnt pc, or is considered abnormal that people dont want to give over anything of themselves until the other person has given over a bit of themselves. Its a mess in other words.