INTJ scared of romance [Archive]

luther

12-31-2007, 10:56 PM

I have a deep connection with an INTJ woman right now. We're on the same wavelength with all of our thinking. We believe in the same principles but approach the application of those principles from different perspectives. There's teamwork, intellectual curiosity, a similar communication style, shared interests, and even a level of emotional closeness, although that last one is very difficult for her. It's amazing.

I think it's very scary for my friend, neither of us has experienced anything quite like this before. ENTJs and INTJs both care a great deal about improving relationships, and this one is much better and runs deeper than any relationship I've had before. I assume that this depth is threatening to an INTJ. Am I missing something?

Here's a summary of our interaction over the past year:

We meet. Instant attraction because of commonality of values and thinking style.

After analyzing the friendship logically, I decide that I can't take it to the next level, even though I have a strong attraction toward her. She continues to demonstrate interest for several months but seems frustrated at my lack of response.

She makes an excuse to get together for lunch and very coyly breaks down all of my objections. Now I'm really interested. But due to a misunderstanding, she loses trust in me and ignores me for a month. She can't talk to me or look me in the eye. What I do see in her eyes is nervousness and uncomfortability.

Then she does it all again. We meet up by accident and she drops some clear hints that she's interested. She tries to break down any remaining objections I may have. So I decide that I'm going to pursue her. But then she gets scared for no apparent reason - I haven't done anything this time!

This cycle has repeated itself a couple more times. Each time, we become closer with each other. She's introduced me to her family and made me the only guest at several family events. She's told me things about herself that no one ought to know who isn't a family member.

In each reiteration of the cycle, some seemingly random aspect of my pursuit gets through to her, and she's really grateful. But she becomes scared again later.

She's running away again and doesn't want to talk on the phone - tells me to call her back later.

Is this a normal INTJ female phenomenon or do I have a unique case on my hands? Would love to hear your perspectives!

Santana28

01-01-2008, 01:06 AM

<~~~ female INTJ here, who has been in a relationship with an ENTJ... i saw your post in another thread.

To answer your first question - if she's anything like me, the answer is NO! Introspective depth should not be threatening to an INTJ. The thing you have to remember is this - sometimes we trust ourselves TOO much. We spend so much time envisioning scenarios in our head and working them out, that we simply overlook instances that we haven't already planned out, or have ruled out with our logic. I was best friends with my ENTJ fellow for 5 years and completely oblivious to the fact that he was crazy about me, simply because i had already deducted that it was an impossibility due to a variety of reasons (which in the end turned out to be a smokescreen because HE was the one freaking out about getting close to someone who could know him so intimately).

Now, when something happens that i didnt plan for or expect - i tend to freeze up. I haven't planned a response, so i freeze and withdraw. I simply dont know how to respond, or i dont think i should for fear of doing something wrong and making matters worse. it doesn't mean i'm afraid of what caught me off guard - i'm afraid of being unprepared and screwing up. thats basically it. i'll come back when i have had some time to dwell on things. what would ease my anxiety about everything would be 1) understanding, and 2) bluntness.

this is very similar to the situation i was in... we both were on the wrong page about each other for the longest time, and then when we realized that the interest was mutual - we didn't quite know what to do about it. this is where is NT spontanaity saved the day - he just stepped up, asked me to go away with him on a little road trip (which appealed to my natural adventurousness, curiosity, and desire for random acts of fun with people i enjoy spending time with) - and while on the trip, at the most random moment - he just kissed me. Up until that kiss, i was still trying to convince myself that this was just a friendship. After that kiss, nothing was ever the same... it was like the floodgates were let open. if this is something you are not comfortable with - then think long and hard before getting yourself seriously involved with an INTJ girl... because you will NOT come out the same person as you went in.

I'd say the #1 way to win an NTJ's heart is to step up and ACT on what you know and believe in. If you love her and want to be with her - tell her. Bluntly. If you have a hard time getting her to follow your lead, appeal to her with something random and spontaneous .

Hope that helps... if she's anything like me, it would :)

ps... from my experience ENTJ's are MUCH more afraid of the introspective feelings than INTJ's are... and that tends to get projected when it is not necessarily true... just so you know.

terencec

01-01-2008, 01:28 AM

I'd say the #1 way to win an NTJ's heart is to step up and ACT on what you know and believe in. If you love her and want to be with her - tell her. Bluntly. If you have a hard time getting her to follow your lead, appeal to her with something random and spontaneous .

I believe the girl has already known he likes/loves her by his acts (assuming she is "NT" type or "NF" or any type, she could not be such naive.). However, she acts erratic. So, I don't see any "new information" will give to her that she has not already known. I am worried the "old information i.e. telling her he really loves her" will make her very scare.

I think he should not put all the eggs in one basket.

Santana28

01-01-2008, 01:58 AM

I believe the girl has already known he likes/loves her by his acts (assuming she is "NT" type or "NF" or any type, she could not be such naive.). However, she acts erratic. So, I don't see any "new information" will give to her that she has not already known. I am worried the "old information i.e. telling her he really loves her" will make her very scare.

I think he should not put all the eggs in one basket.

i disagree. i think by shunning her initial advances in a way that she wasn't expecting, it threw her offguard and she had to withdrawal and think of something else. i think she's been baiting him for concrete conclusive action ever since, because she thought she was certain before and then things didnt work out how she thought they would. i think she knows he likes her...but how much is the question?

if he doesnt put all his eggs in one basket, i think the game will continue in circles and never go anywhere. someone has to step up, and if she is anything like me then the man she wants to be with is the man who is willing to step up and act on what he wants, instead of waiting to be told what to do.

Maitri1970

01-01-2008, 07:33 AM

Is this a normal INTJ female phenomenon or do I have a unique case on my hands? Would love to hear your perspectives!
Remember you're dealing with an INTJ. This woman finds emotions difficult to understand and express. She may be afraid of feeling too much because it's not a normal mode of operation for her. She sounds like me. It's threatening to develop an emotional dependency and it sounds like she's fighting that pretty hard. She's not sure what side to take: autonomy or relationship. INTJ women, like myself, are very independent. I don't think she means to be erratic. I really don't. Cut the woman some slack.

Cuivienen

01-01-2008, 08:12 AM

Remember you're dealing with an INTJ. This woman finds emotions difficult to understand and express. She may be afraid of feeling too much because it's not a normal mode of operation for her. She sounds like me. It's threatening to develop an emotional dependency and it sounds like she's fighting that pretty hard. She's not sure what side to take: autonomy or relationship. INTJ women, like myself, are very independent. I don't think she means to be erratic. I really don't. Cut the woman some slack.

qft, I can relate to her behaviour and recognise it in myself in a few occasions. It happens very rarely, but when it does it is disaster.

It is frightening for an intj woman who is used to dealing with everything rationally to find that she is in a situation in which she can`t be rational and suddenly has near-constant feelings she can`t understand. Things one can`t understand, especially things concerning oneself, are scary.

It is a disaster for an intj because it changes the way you have always viewed yourself as being and an introverts "idea" of him-/herself is of central importance. Add the independence-problem to this and you can see what kind of a conflict she most likely sees herself in; I am sure her reactions are even more confusing to her than they are to you.

In my opinion the worst thing you could do right now is put pressure, esp. emotional pressure, on her (not to implicate that I have any reason to think you are doing that). She has shown that she is definately interested in you and has "feelings" for you, so give her time to figure them out, make up her mind and find out that she can be with you without losing (most of) her independence.
I can see however that the wait must be frustrating to you.

Santana28

01-01-2008, 10:01 AM

qft, I can relate to her behaviour and recognise it in myself in a few occasions. It happens very rarely, but when it does it is disaster.

It is frightening for an intj woman who is used to dealing with everything rationally to find that she is in a situation in which she can`t be rational and suddenly has near-constant feelings she can`t understand. Things one can`t understand, especially things concerning oneself, are scary.

It is a disaster for an intj because it changes the way you have always viewed yourself as being and an introverts "idea" of him-/herself is of central importance. Add the independence-problem to this and you can see what kind of a conflict she most likely sees herself in; I am sure her reactions are even more confusing to her than they are to you.

In my opinion the worst thing you could do right now is put pressure, esp. emotional pressure, on her (not to implicate that I have any reason to think you are doing that). She has shown that she is definately interested in you and has "feelings" for you, so give her time to figure them out, make up her mind and find out that she can be with you without losing (most of) her independence.
I can see however that the wait must be frustrating to you.

i dont see why emotions can't be treated rationally. but then again, studying emotions and their effects has been somewhat of an obsession of mine ;)

terencec

01-01-2008, 03:16 PM

i disagree. i think by shunning her initial advances in a way that she wasn't expecting, it threw her offguard and she had to withdrawal and think of something else. i think she's been baiting him for concrete conclusive action ever since, because she thought she was certain before and then things didnt work out how she thought they would. i think she knows he likes her...but how much is the question?

if he doesnt put all his eggs in one basket, i think the game will continue in circles and never go anywhere. someone has to step up, and if she is anything like me then the man she wants to be with is the man who is willing to step up and act on what he wants, instead of waiting to be told what to do.

There is no right or wrong answer since we don't know exactly what happens. We only hear "one side" story. But I am still very hard to believe she does not know he has "very strong feelings" to her. She seems to be "scare" the idea to get close to him (The reasons are not important at the moment). If he keeps push her very hard, she will be so scare that she may leave forever.

I still don't like the idea to put all the eggs in one basket when the girl runs around. He gives so much power to the girl. At least, make some excuses and leave her alone even he does not date any girl. Let her know that she can talk to him if she wants or when she is ready

If he does (i.e. put all the eggs in one basket) and push very hard, he implies he could not live without her, he could not be independent and/or has not much worth himself. Those are undesirable attributes.

terencec added to this post, 3 minutes and 58 seconds later...

In my opinion the worst thing you could do right now is put pressure, esp. emotional pressure, on her (not to implicate that I have any reason to think you are doing that). She has shown that she is definately interested in you and has "feelings" for you, so give her time to figure them out, make up her mind and find out that she can be with you without losing (most of) her independence.
I can see however that the wait must be frustrating to you.

I agree. Make some excuses, leave her alone and let her have time to think about it. Let her know how she can contact him. If she wants to see him, she will let him know. IMO, he is willing to lose before he can win.

Santana28

01-01-2008, 03:20 PM

If he does (i.e. put all the eggs in one basket) and push very hard, he implies he could not live without her, he could not be independent or has not much worth himself.

terencec added to this post, 3 minutes and 58 seconds later...

I agree. Make some excuses, leave her alone and let her have time to think about it. Let her know how she can contact him. If she wants to see him, she will let him know.

well, he doesn't have to BEG her. there's nothing needy about simply stating what you want, and making a whole emotional needy sloppy ordeal out of it. The challenge is orchestrating a situation where it would be best received. She'll appreciate all of the thought put into it. Once its out there an known, there should be no need to repeat it.

You're right. Maybe she will freak out. But being an INTJ, she'll freak out, say she needs some time, and then come to a resolution one way or the other. Maybe it isn't meant to be and she doesn't want that level of connection. Maybe she does, but isnt sure if she should or not. "Putting all his eggs in one basket" is only going to speed up the inevitable, with a rational thinking person. Just don't act like a needy freak!

terencec

01-01-2008, 03:37 PM

well, he doesn't have to BEG her. there's nothing needy about simply stating what you want, and making a whole emotional needy sloppy ordeal out of it.

**********************

You're right. Maybe she will freak out. But being an INTJ, she'll freak out, say she needs some time, and then come to a resolution one way or the other. Maybe it isn't meant to be and she doesn't want that level of connection. Maybe she does, but isnt sure if she should or not. "Putting all his eggs in one basket" is only going to speed up the inevitable, with a rational thinking person. Just don't act like a needy freak!

It doesn't mean he needs to "beg" her, I doubt he will. If he keeps asking her out and she is not ready (i.e. she keeps running around for whatever reasons. The reasons are not important at this point.), IMO, it does "imply" what I have mentioned before. Most people will interpret that way, no except for "NT" type. The negative image will affect they can get together in the future.

IMO, I don't think there will be any inevitable outcome (one way or the other). But if he keeps giving her bad image about himself (i.e. push her very hard), it will push her away. As you said that she was not sure if she wants that level of connection. So, let her have time to think, let her know he cares about her and let her to get back to him.

Santana28

01-01-2008, 07:17 PM

It doesn't mean he needs to "beg" her, I doubt he will. If he keeps asking her out and she is not ready (i.e. she keeps running around for whatever reasons. The reasons are not important at this point.), IMO, it does "imply" what I have mentioned before. Most people will interpret that way, no except for "NT" type. The negative image will affect they can get together in the future.

IMO, I don't think there will be any inevitable outcome (one way or the other). But if he keeps giving her bad image about himself (i.e. push her very hard), it will push her away. As you said that she was not sure if she wants that level of connection. So, let her have time to think, let her know he cares about her and let her to get back to him.

well, i disagree with you. if she's wishy washy enough to let his METHOD of telling her he wants her is enough to make her not want to date him, then there probably wasn't enough of an attraction there on her part in the first place. remember - from what he wrote, he's the one that withdrew from her advances first. that would certainly be enough to confuse the heck out of me, especially if things had previously been going relatively smooth. INTJs and ENTJs from my experience seem to look for different success signals - the ENTJ watches the actions of the other person from a societal measuring stick, while the INTJ looks at things as if they are the only two people in the world. An ENTJ might see someone being flaky about making social commitments as a signal that the other person is not interested, whereas the INTJ might not even think about it so long as the quality of the time one-on-one together is satisfactory. Thats how it has been for me, at least.

terencec

01-01-2008, 07:59 PM

remember - from what he wrote, he's the one that withdrew from her advances first. that would certainly be enough to confuse the heck out of me, especially if things had previously been going relatively smooth. INTJs and ENTJs from my experience seem to look for different success signals - the ENTJ watches the actions of the other person from a societal measuring stick, while the INTJ looks at things as if they are the only two people in the world. An ENTJ might see someone being flaky about making social commitments as a signal that the other person is not interested, whereas the INTJ might not even think about it so long as the quality of the time one-on-one together is satisfactory. Thats how it has been for me, at least.

From what he said:
Then she does it all again. We meet up by accident and she drops some clear hints that she's interested. She tries to break down any remaining objections I may have. So I decide that I'm going to pursue her. But then she gets scared for no apparent reason - I haven't done anything this time!

This cycle has repeated itself a couple more times. Each time, we become closer with each other. She's introduced me to her family and made me the only guest at several family events. She's told me things about herself that no one ought to know who isn't a family member.

My conclusion.
1. She is interested (because she invited him for some events)
2. She knows he is interested. (He went to her events a few times, if he was not interested, he wouldn't show up.)
3. She scares.
4. She should not be confused he is interested now. (Her past experience (i.e. he rejected her advance) is not relevant, what is important is he is interested now.

Now, we have no idea why she scares i.e. she keeps running around (We can guess but are not for sure). You think if he says something "right", it will change her mind. I doubt she can "suddenly trust" what he says to her (because his actions already told her he was interested.) Why does she prefer to trust someone by words and not by action?

Maybe you are right, he will decide what to do and let us know what happens.

Santana28

01-01-2008, 08:05 PM

From what he said:

My conclusion.
1. She is interested (because she invited him for some events)
2. She knows he is interested. (He went to her events, if not, he wouldn't show up)
3.. She scares

Now, we have no idea why she scares i.e. she keeps running around (We can guess but are not sure). You think if he says something "right", it will change her mind. I doubt she can "suddenly trust" what he says to her (because his actions already told her he was interested)

Maybe you are right, he will decide what to do and let us know what happens.

i agree with what you just said for the most part. my edits:

1. She is interested.
2. She knows he is at least somewhat interested.
3. She is afraid of reacting incorrectly and screwing up, so she is waiting for definitives before taking action.

are you sure you're not an ENTJ terrick? you seem to look at it primarily from the societal angle.

terencec

01-01-2008, 08:20 PM

i agree with what you just said for the most part. my edits:

1. She is interested.
2. She knows he is at least somewhat interested.
3. She is afraid of reacting incorrectly and screwing up, so she is waiting for definitives before taking action.

are you sure you're not an ENTJ terrick? you seem to look at it primarily from the societal angle.

I have reserved about number 3. "The problem" has happened a few times already. She already took action (i.e invited him to her events a few times) but suddenly she withdrew.

I want to be ENTJ, it is be easier in this society (US). Anyway, I never understand well enough what women think (Please do not take it personal, IMO, most women do not think, they "feel"). I can only "think" what most likely happened. Maybe, you are right.

Happy new year.

Allie

01-01-2008, 08:35 PM

She sounds like me when I was younger and still new to a relationship. Here's my take based on the 1 and a half relationships I have had.

Love is very scary because it's beyond our control. We even try to make sense of it. So, approaching it in an orderly manner is crucial for us. Your initial rejection probably threw her for a loop. Now, she has to start over. It's like one step forward 10 steps back. If the feelings are mutual, I recommend that you continue to pursue her and be persistent. Not pushy, but go with the flow, and nudge lightly when needed. As long as she's still open to you, then there's still a chance. It's worth the fight. You'll be in trouble if/when she made up her mind to cut off the relationship totally. Once an INTJ makes up her mind, then it'll be hard to impossible to break down that thick wall.

Regarding her behavior:
1. She's definitely scared - and/or -
2. She has personal issues/secrets that may prevent a relationship? I don't know. Just a wild guess.

Danisty

01-01-2008, 09:20 PM

I agree. Make some excuses, leave her alone and let her have time to think about it. Let her know how she can contact him. If she wants to see him, she will let him know. IMO, he is willing to lose before he can win.I think this would be a bad idea. She will probably mistake him giving her space for him rejecting her again. Personally speaking, I'm always going to judge someone's actions by the actions they've taken previously. If I were the INTJ female in question, I would have figured out that pulling away is his pattern of disinterest. I would not see it as someone giving me space (especially if I had made so many advances already...why would I need space?) I would assume that the message he was trying to communicate is that he just wanted to be friends.

Santana28

01-01-2008, 09:37 PM

I think this would be a bad idea. She will probably mistake him giving her space for him rejecting her again. Personally speaking, I'm always going to judge someone's actions by the actions they've taken previously. If I were the INTJ female in question, I would have figured out that pulling away is his pattern of disinterest. I would not see it as someone giving me space (especially if I had made so many advances already...why would I need space?) I would assume that the message he was trying to communicate is that he just wanted to be friends.

exactly!

Verde

01-01-2008, 10:16 PM

what santana and some of the other women have said is correct to me and hit home as to how I have felt dealing with men in the past

if she is anything like me, and she sounds like she is- she's thinking too much and is probably over-analyzing each action that you take-when I get mixed signals from someone I think is interested in me I think-"I don't know what to do so I'm not going to do anything at all, and wait until he makes a move and then go from there"-if no move is made, its over because I think he isn't interested-it probably isn't the best way to go about it but its what I do because I don't want to make a mistake

I would say to be clear and direct with how you feel about her, I can definitely say that if men were like this with me more often it would save both sides a lot of time and frustration

its hard, I know! I don't blame past love interests in me for giving up-why spend extra time dealing with me when other girls are so much easier to get through to?

however I do think we have more to offer than other women, but I'm biased =)

Danisty

01-01-2008, 10:44 PM

I would say to be clear and direct with how you feel about her, I can definitely say that if men were like this with me more often it would save both sides a lot of time and frustration I'd like to take this a step further in that I would like everyone to be clear and direct with me.

terencec

01-01-2008, 11:30 PM

Danisty

01-01-2008, 11:36 PM

I don't see how you get your conclusion. She is the one gives mix signal. (He did not want relationship at the beginning but he did not give mix signals.)

I assume she is afraid to get hurt if she really needs he tells her everything by words. If she really needs that level of "security", is it good? Does it mean he has to say "love you" multiple times everyday? Is it a love burden?

Since you are girls, I cannot just dismiss your opinion!No, I don't think any of that is necessary. In fact, I don't even like romance. I just want people to be direct with me. If they are puzzling me, I have to figure out what is meant before I can act on it, so until they're clear, I'm just going to be confused. It's not about insecurity. It's just about knowing exactly what all the clues and signals mean. Once I know what is meant, I'm fine without the words.

Also, I don't know if her signals are mixed or just absent. If she's testing the waters and trying to figure out what's going on, that's not the same thing as sending mixed signals.

terencec

01-01-2008, 11:54 PM

No, I don't think any of that is necessary. In fact, I don't even like romance. I just want people to be direct with me. If they are puzzling me, I have to figure out what is meant before I can act on it, so until they're clear, I'm just going to be confused. It's not about insecurity. It's just about knowing exactly what all the clues and signals mean. Once I know what is meant, I'm fine without the words.

Also, I don't know if her signals are mixed or just absent. If she's testing the waters and trying to figure out what's going on, that's not the same thing as sending mixed signals.

I can only "know" what he said in the post. It is clear to me he is interested in her by his actions. She is supposed to be "NT" type, she should read that. If she tests the water, she aalready gets the "positive" result. Why does she "keep testing" it by "same method" to get the same results?

If a guy keeps asking a girl out for movie, lunch, dinner, do his actions speak he is interested in her? So, a guy should tell her directly he likes her (a lot).

Now, why do you trust someone by words instead of by actions? For me, I will not trust anyone by words. Even though I read the books from reliable source, will think twice before accept the arguments. People can lie so that they can take advantage. (I am not saying he will lie though.)

Can you explain why? I am not trying to challenge you, want to see your view.

If she does not need security or is not worried about getting hurt, IMO, she has some problems.

luther

01-02-2008, 12:16 AM

Thanks for all of the great discussion. I've been quietly following it trying to figure out how to respond. I suppose I have a bit of INTJ in me after all. :P

Let me flesh out the story a bit:

At first, I decided not to pursue her because I thought it would be unethical for me to do so. This was an inaccurate judgment on my part, but she doesn't know my reasons for pulling away or why I came back.

I probably was giving her mixed signals during the few months when I pulled away. I think she was confused because she knew I was attracted to her but was resisting her signals.

After the first time she got scared and pulled away, I gently confronted her and asked her if I'd done anything wrong. She said that I hadn't and that she was struggling with her own issues. I decided to leave it at that and just be her friend.

After a month of ignoring me, she gave me some pretty strong signals again. It was at that point that I decided I was going to pursue her. I thanked her for her patience and made it clear that I would be treating her differently from then on. I started sending her cards and small gifts and called every few days. Immediately, she withdrew. She couldn't talk to me or look me in the eye. I think she was forcing herself away from me for some reason. But in the rare instances when we did have real contact, I received clear signals of interest.

Over the course of two months, she cycled several times between being outwardly interested and outwardly ignoring me.

I decided it would be best for me to be up-front with her about my intentions. I asked her out to lunch, and she agreed very reluctantly to come. But as soon as she figured out what I intended to say at that lunch, she contacted me and told me that she wasn't interested. The lunch never happened, and I was left having to consider her a friend again.

After a week or so, the friendship began to re-build and grow into something more wonderful than it had been at first. Whenever I spent time with her, I could feel us becoming closer mentally and emotionally. But since I'm principle-driven, I forced myself to treat her consistently with what she had told me: "She wants to be just friends." She had to overwhelm me with hints until I finally got the message: "She's still interested."

Things went really well for a couple of weeks. Our time together began to look less like hanging out and more like dates. But now she's scared again. She won't pick up my phone calls. When she does call or e-mail back, it's strictly business. She wants me to call her this week, which I plan to do, despite the possiblity that she won't answer my call.

I hope this sheds some light on what's going on. I would sure like to make my intentions clear, but I'm not sure if she's ready for that.

[Edit: Lately, she's "too busy" to talk on the phone or have lunch or dinner with me. Forgot to mention that the first time around.]

Santana28

01-02-2008, 12:52 AM

luther

01-02-2008, 12:59 AM

what would ease my anxiety about everything would be 1) understanding, and 2) bluntness

That's what I thought at first too. Unfortunately, she responded by rejecting me and then signaling me back all over again.

After that kiss, nothing was ever the same... it was like the floodgates were let open. if this is something you are not comfortable with - then think long and hard before getting yourself seriously involved with an INTJ girl... because you will NOT come out the same person as you went in.

If that happened, all my dreams would come true! This woman has some serious layers to her, and I'm fascinated every time she lets me behind one of her walls. I would find it very hard to be this interested in an E or S - sorry if that happens to be your type. :P

Being in a relationship with an I involves hard work, and properly directed, purposeful work provides great rewards. That's one of my NT reasons for wanting this relationship.

from my experience ENTJ's are MUCH more afraid of the introspective feelings than INTJ's are... and that tends to get projected when it is not necessarily true... just so you know.

Yes, I think you're right. What I've found recently is that many people can't be trusted, but I need to trust somebody. She's the first person I've truly opened up to in a long time, and that experience helped me open up to half a dozen others. She rocks my world.

i think she knows he likes her...but how much is the question?

That's a legitimate question. But how can I make that clear to her if her walls are up?

More precisely, I think she realizes that many of her normal walls don't work with me. Physical walls are the best way to keep me out.

someone has to step up, and if she is anything like me then the man she wants to be with is the man who is willing to step up and act on what he wants, instead of waiting to be told what to do.

I know she wants someone with that kind of strength. I have it, not only because of my type, but because of my convictions about leadership. But part of true strength and leadership is restraint. I'm practicing restraint at the moment because bluntness didn't work before. Am I missing something here?

Remember you're dealing with an INTJ. This woman finds emotions difficult to understand and express. She may be afraid of feeling too much because it's not a normal mode of operation for her. She sounds like me. It's threatening to develop an emotional dependency and it sounds like she's fighting that pretty hard. She's not sure what side to take: autonomy or relationship. INTJ women, like myself, are very independent. I don't think she means to be erratic. I really don't. Cut the woman some slack.

Thank you for the advice. It's really tough for me to imagine what this must be like from her perspective. I would really like to do what's best for her, even if that makes life harder for me. So what do I do? :)

I can see however that the wait must be frustrating to you.

Yes. It's both the wait and the fact that I'm getting rejected over and over again when she pushes me away. The fact that she rejects me doesn't change the sincerity of my attempts, but it does increase the amount of time that passes between my attempts.

She seems to be "scare" the idea to get close to him (The reasons are not important at the moment). If he keeps push her very hard, she will be so scare that she may leave forever.

Yes - last time I tried to lay my cards on the table, she instigated a preemptive strike and turned me down. But not forever.

So, let her have time to think, let her know he cares about her and let her to get back to him.

That's what I'm doing now by default. I don't have a better plan yet.

remember - from what he wrote, he's the one that withdrew from her advances first. that would certainly be enough to confuse the heck out of me, especially if things had previously been going relatively smooth.

Yes - and she still doesn't know why I originally withdrew from her. That won't become clear until after we're able to be straight up with one another.

INTJs and ENTJs from my experience seem to look for different success signals - the ENTJ watches the actions of the other person from a societal measuring stick, while the INTJ looks at things as if they are the only two people in the world. An ENTJ might see someone being flaky about making social commitments as a signal that the other person is not interested, whereas the INTJ might not even think about it so long as the quality of the time one-on-one together is satisfactory. Thats how it has been for me, at least.

Curious! Would you mind providing some examples that I can think on?

Why does she prefer to trust someone by words and not by action?

It could be that she's INTJ and isn't sure how to interpret my actions. That's not ideal, of course, but it may be what's happening.

Love is very scary because it's beyond our control. We even try to make sense of it. So, approaching it in an orderly manner is crucial for us. Your initial rejection probably threw her for a loop. Now, she has to start over. It's like one step forward 10 steps back. If the feelings are mutual, I recommend that you continue to pursue her and be persistent. Not pushy, but go with the flow, and nudge lightly when needed. As long as she's still open to you, then there's still a chance. It's worth the fight. You'll be in trouble if/when she made up her mind to cut off the relationship totally. Once an INTJ makes up her mind, then it'll be hard to impossible to break down that thick wall.

Yes, it is worth a chance. I'm fighting for this and want this to happen. I assume that once she and I can be honest with each other, a lot of security will return to her if she trusts that I won't abuse her heart.

I would say to be clear and direct with how you feel about her, I can definitely say that if men were like this with me more often it would save both sides a lot of time and frustration

its hard, I know! I don't blame past love interests in me for giving up-why spend extra time dealing with me when other girls are so much easier to get through to?

however I do think we have more to offer than other women, but I'm biased =)

Why spend the extra time? Because other people don't offer the kind of deep connection that INxJs do. You have far more to offer, and I think what you're offering is so valuable that it scares some people to give it away. Am I close to the mark here?

I'd like to take this a step further in that I would like everyone to be clear and direct with me.

If only... [roll eyes]. :)

terencec

01-02-2008, 01:19 AM

You may want to hear she will fall in love to you when you do/say something. Don't take it personal, IMO, you should not push her anymore. I convince that you just let her know you care about her, ask her to call you when she is ready.

Here are my reasons:
After a month of ignoring me, she gave me some pretty strong signals again. It was at that point that I decided I was going to pursue her. I thanked her for her patience and made it clear that I would be treating her differently from then on. I started sending her cards and small gifts and called every few days. Immediately, she withdrew. She couldn't talk to me or look me in the eye. I think she was forcing herself away from me for some reason. But in the rare instances when we did have real contact, I received clear signals of interest.

1. From what you said above, she should be very clear what you want (i.e. you want a relationship with her). Your actions speak you are very interested in her. I hardly believe she did not know.

Over the course of two months, she cycled several times between being outwardly interested and outwardly ignoring me. I decided it would be best for me to be up-front with her about my intentions. I asked her out to lunch, and she agreed very reluctantly to come. But as soon as she figured out what I intended to say at that lunch, she contacted me and told me that she wasn't interested. The lunch never happened, and I was left having to consider her a friend again.

2. I can only assume you mean she knew you wanted to tell her your feelings (Correct me if I am wrong). That means she knew your intention. But she ran around.

After a week or so, the friendship began to re-build and grow into something more wonderful than it had been at first. Whenever I spent time with her, I could feel us becoming closer mentally and emotionally. But since I'm principle-driven, I forced myself to treat her consistently with what she had told me: "She wants to be just friends." She had to overwhelm me with hints until I finally got the message: "She's still interested."

3.Again, she knew you want a relationship with her. Otherwise, she would not tell you "she just wants to be your friends".

Things went really well for a couple of weeks. Our time together began to look less like hanging out and more like dates. But now she's scared again. She won't pick up my phone calls. When she does call or e-mail back, it's strictly business. She wants me to call her this week, which I plan to do, despite the possiblity that she won't answer my call.

4. Now, she ran around again for whatever reasons. The reasons are not important.

You have done a lot more than what I thought before. At this point, you should not send her gift anymore until you get into "very serious" relationship. I still think you should just tell her you care about her, you will be available when she is ready and ask her to let you know when she is ready.

If you keep pushing her, you may lose her forever. IMO, In general, when a girl runs around, you don't want to chase them. You turn around and run:), most likely, she will chase you. If she does not, you need to accept to lose her. You have to willing to lose her before you can win her.

I still think you have a chance.:) However, you should not put all the eggs in one basket. If she sees you dating other girls, it makes her want you.

This is my opinion.

Let the ladies express their opinions. I am not woman,could not think like woman.

luther

01-02-2008, 01:27 AM

luther... are you certain she is still interested, or is there a possibility that she is trying to make you feel better because you are her friend and you want to do these things with her?

one thing about us Js... when we come to a conclusion about something we have thought long and hard about, the subject is closed until something concrete proves otherwise. She might possibly have come to a negative conclusion about you when you withdrew from her that first time. Perhaps she has had issues with people taking advantage of her in the past, and has concluded that your actions are similar and your intentions are selfish in nature. Indeed, if you just want a traditional relationship with her - then perhaps that isn't good enough for her. Perhaps she is looking for that one person who truly understands and appreciates her - and perhaps she has concluded that by your actions you dont. whether it is true or not.

That's a good question. I'm pretty sure that she wants more than friendship. Both times that I wanted to be just friends with her, it took a LOT to convince me otherwise. The first time, it was an ethical choice on my part, and I had to be internally convinced that I'd made the wrong choice. The second time, I had made the decision to respect what she had told me and treat her only as a friend. She had to overcome that, too.

How did she do it? By opening her heart to me and sharing things that I know she hasn't told anyone else. By calling me and waiting to see me when she's frustrated. By telling me that I'm only only one who really understands her. By inviting me to Easter and Thanksgiving dinners when I was the only male guest.

I've done the same for her, with the exception of the family events, since my family lives pretty far away. I'm not just looking for someone to date, and she knows this very well. Neither of us would not date anyone we wouldn't consider marrying. And that's a far cry from a traditional relationship.

Personally, the cards and gifts and calling every few days would scare me! To an INTJ, the bond between two people is completely internal - she might not understand your need to have these open displays that state bluntly "i want you." She might interpret that as you *needing* her, or desiring her for selfish reasons... neither of which she would probably be interested in, and possibly turned off by.

Actions MUST be intensely personal for an INTJ to genuinely accept them. That means little, personal things which speak to an aspect of her personality that you appreciate. Things that no one but the two of you would understand to be a statement of affection. My ENTJ would buy me the same bottled coffee every time he came to see me. It was something absolutely mundane and everyone knew it was my favorite. But it was also his favorite, and he had never told anyone else that. So when he would come to see me... he would have a bottled coffee in hand. Just one, just for me. We never even discussed it - not once. He would just give it to me and smile, and that was all i needed from him. Things like that.

I think you're right about this. The times she really responded well was when I did small but meaningful things to help her. I haven't actually revealed the whole story about this either because I didn't think before that it was relevant. The cards and calls are not the foundation of our friendship. Shared values, a common mission in life, and mutual servanthood are.

If she thought I just wanted a traditional relationship, why does she keep coming back and convincing me that she wants more? Remember, she has to convince me, an ENTJ, that I am wrong (WRONG, WRONG) about the "just friends" status of our relationship. You know ENTJs. How easy is that to do?

It was actually so difficult that she wasn't able to do it. It took the almost unanimous consent of my female friends to convince me that she was interested despite her previous rejection of me.

Now keep in mind - i have never pursued an ENTJ before. Our relationship just kind of spontaneously happened. And it never would have been anything more than friendship if he hadn't of just out and kissed me. I dont know how far along you guys have gotten, but the gravity of the moment was what really impressed me - the fact that we were best friends and i was in a relationship with his best friend at the time and that by doing what he was doing he had a very very good chance of throwing everything out the window, but it was something he wanted *that badly* that it was worth the all or nothing risk. If he had pursued me through traditional methods, i would have hated him for it because it would have been planned and i would have been just another concept in his head to grasp onto and hold. i dont know if that makes any sense at all.

It sort of does. It sort of describes my friendship with her - the spontaneity and the specialness of every little thing that happens. However, we haven't had the one clear dramatic moment that you describe.

I did try to be up-front about my intentions with her. She wouldn't allow it to happen. So what do I do now?

from what you have added, i would say that you definitely scared her by your actions and you should back off a bit. she probably has serious doubts about the very foundation of your relationship to begin with (if she thinks you have only been friends with her in order to get in her pants...well... that would probably be the worst possible scenario).

Hah! If she thinks that, she really doesn't know me very well. If anything, she may be scared of me because I believe that dating is supposed to be a stepping stone (but not an inevitable one) toward marriage.

sorry to be so negative, but i'm not getting good vibes from what you have written for sure. i hope it works out though - despite everything that happened, i still think of my ENTJ every day. I cant let go of the thing that have genuinely played a part in my life. i hope you can be that for her, and she can be that for you. good luck.

I'm going to be blunt here, but I assume that's okay, since this is an xNTJ forum. For me to describe the nature of our friendship completely wouldn't be possible due to lack of space and because I need to respect her privacy. All I did was present a very basic outline of what happened, and my purpose in writing was probably not the same as your purpose in reading.

If you're not sure about the details of my friendship with her, please ask! Vibes have some value, but they need to be checked against facts. No one one on this forum ought to know those details better than I do. I believe in all honesty that other than her family, she is closer to me than to anyone else in this entire city. I feel the same way about her. And if that's not true, then I've seriously misjudged what is going on and need to step back and re-evaluate things.

That said, I really do appreciate your advice and look forward to learning more from you. That's why xNTJs enjoy each other so much, right? :)

luther

01-02-2008, 01:51 AM

You may want to hear she will fall in love to you when you do/say something. Don't take it personal, IMO, you should not push her anymore. I convince that you just let her know you care about her, ask her to call you when she is ready.

Strangely enough, all of the women I know personally have recommended what you just have. About half of the men are recommending that I make my intentions clear. I wonder why things are reversed on this board. Maybe an NTJ thing? :)

All I can do is follow your advice on this point, since I already tried the other route and it didn't work.

1. From what you said above, she should be very clear what you want (i.e. you want a relationship with her). Your actions speak you are very interested in her. I hardly believe she did not know.

It's possible that part of her knows but that she has a hard time believing that it will continue. From her point of view, it's possible that I've changed my mind. Or it's possible that I will change my mind in the future. Maybe she needs to hear my words. But she's not ready to hear them, I think.

2. I can only assume you mean she knew you wanted to tell her your feelings (Correct me if I am wrong). That means she knew your intention. But she ran around.

3.Again, she knew you want a relationship with her. Otherwise, she would not tell you "she just wants to be your friends".

Correct. She knew what I was going to do and responded accordingly by saying she wasn't interested.

If you keep pushing her, you may lose her forever. IMO, In general, when a girl runs around, you don't want to chase them. You turn around and run:), most likely, she will chase you. If she does not, you need to accept to lose her. You have to willing to lose her before you can win her.

I still think you have a chance.:) However, you should not put all the eggs in one basket. If she sees you dating other girls, it makes her want you.

I don't see any viable options other than running away. I assume that since our relationship had been gathering momentum, by standing still, it will look like I'm running away.

terencec

01-02-2008, 02:46 AM

You may want to hear she will fall in love to you when you do/say something. Don't take it personal, IMO, you should not push her anymore. I convince that you just let her know you care about her, ask her to call you when she is ready.

Strangely enough, all of the women I know personally have recommended what you just have. About half of the men are recommending that I make my intentions clear. I wonder why things are reversed on this board. Maybe an NTJ thing?

If you told us more information in the first post, I believe most women may think differently here. However, I can not understand why half men said that you should make your intention clear. It is "very clear" by actions.

Why does she prefer to trust someone by words and not by action?
It could be that she's INTJ and isn't sure how to interpret my actions. That's not ideal, of course, but it may be what's happening.

Actually, I think you have already figured out (You are also "NT" type) what has happened but you don't want to "accept it" because it is just too painful to accept it. So, you think if you tell her your intention, she will chance her mind. Don't think it will work. You will only push her away and maybe leave you forever.

Please read my reply above and consider my suggestion. See if it makes sense.

Don't send her any gift (until you develop a serious relationship with her).
Don't call/email her until she is ready and call you (please read my reply).
Ideally don't see her in any circumstance.

You may still lose her but there is a chance she will call you back in the future. I really think you should consider an alternative. Find another girl. If you date another girl, it will make you more desirable.

Good luck.

terencec added to this post, 38 minutes and 44 seconds later...

I would say to be clear and direct with how you feel about her, I can definitely say that if men were like this with me more often it would save both sides a lot of time and frustration

its hard, I know! I don't blame past love interests in me for giving up-why spend extra time dealing with me when other girls are so much easier to get through to?

however I do think we have more to offer than other women, but I'm biased =)

Verde, on the other hand, I think you are much easier to deal with if you are what you claimed. If all women like you (i.e. we can directly tell you the feelings), this world will be much better.:)

I think the guys who give up on you don't know too much about you.

Santana28

01-02-2008, 10:02 AM

That's a legitimate question. But how can I make that clear to her if her walls are up?

More precisely, I think she realizes that many of her normal walls don't work with me. Physical walls are the best way to keep me out.

Yes. It's both the wait and the fact that I'm getting rejected over and over again when she pushes me away. The fact that she rejects me doesn't change the sincerity of my attempts, but it does increase the amount of time that passes between my attempts.

Yes - last time I tried to lay my cards on the table, she instigated a preemptive strike and turned me down. But not forever.

Yes - and she still doesn't know why I originally withdrew from her. That won't become clear until after we're able to be straight up with one another.

Curious! Would you mind providing some examples that I can think on?

It could be that she's INTJ and isn't sure how to interpret my actions. That's not ideal, of course, but it may be what's happening.

okay, #1: her walls are made for "normal" people. show her that you are not just some other guy - you can see beyond her typical traps, and can formulate a plan around them. i could think of a few suggestions for you if you're interested.

#2. physical walls are a last resort. i'd say the fact that she is physically trying to avoid you is a good indicator she is still interested in you - if she weren't, she wouldn't even care about the walls because she wouldn't care about her actions towards you or yours toward hers. the problem is the trust issue - she's searching for your motives, and she wont necessarily trust your words because your actions of signaled otherwise in the past.

#3. i dont know how it is for ENTJs, but for me time is an absolute non factor. It could be one day or one year, and i'd still look at someone exactly the same unless i had come to a conclusion about something during the meantime. I dont think we INTJs put much emphasis on the appropriate amount of time between calls and seeing each other, unless these things are signaling something that warrants attention. INTJs can do without tradition all together; it seems like ENTJs like to interpret the world through the eyes of tradition. I would tell you not to worry about the time - i'd worry if the way she treated you changed.

#4. if she knows what you're doing and she's cutting you off pre-emptively, then to me that says she still isnt sure she can trust you, or she cant trust herself around you. i cant underscore the importance of consistent actions and intentions to an INTJ... yes, no one is perfect. we all make mistakes. but in our heads if someone loves us and is honest then that means their actions are trustworthy and honest and a dishonest action signals the opposite, and its rather black and white. or on a more optimistic note - perhaps she is wildly attracted to you, and is simply afraid of losing her head around someone who she sees as having possibly questionable motives. i repeat again - if she thinks you only befriended her because you were romantically interested in her, then odds are your chances are shot. i could give you reasons for that if you want them.

#5. you could either get her alone, or write her a letter telling her exactly your thought processes (if she and you have that much alike, then odds are she'll appreciate you all the more after learning you have similar thought processes). simply telling her what you want wont convince her that your motives are pure - but laying out exactly how you reached the conclusions you have reached will go a LONG way.

#6. i forgot the question so i'll add that at the end :)

#7. here's your number #1 lesson about an INTJ/ENTJ relationship - actions aren't as important to an INTJ as much as the MOTIVES behind the actions are. the ENTJs i've known seem to judge the actions as displaying the true motives of the person - but to me, actions can be very misleading and can't be accepted without judging the motivations and midigating factors first.

my thought processes as follows (dont laugh!) :

guy is my friend - yes/no. why or why not? selfish/unselfish? (fyi..charity or pity is considered selfish). if unselfish - why no relationship? different values? different social standings? different intelligence? not an option due to societal expectations? no physical attraction? all good? okay... proceed to sending out signals... signals accepted and positive feedback returned. feedback consistent with previous actions. sending stronger feedback... **danger danger** contradictory signal returned indicating question in motives. possible error in calculations. cancel all transmissions and recalculate. zzzz.... send out a test ping to gauge whether interest is still there... success.... ping again... success... still computing... receiving same signals as before.... no change... waiting for conclusive data.... zzzzzz........

LOL.

Santana28 added to this post, 26 minutes and 55 seconds later...

>>>INTJs and ENTJs from my experience seem to look for different success signals - the ENTJ watches the actions of the other person from a societal measuring stick, while the INTJ looks at things as if they are the only two people in the world. An ENTJ might see someone being flaky about making social commitments as a signal that the other person is not interested, whereas the INTJ might not even think about it so long as the quality of the time one-on-one together is satisfactory. Thats how it has been for me, at least.

Curious! Would you mind providing some examples that I can think on?<<<<

okay, my ENTJ is a very public person with an extremely active social life and many casual friends (and casual relationships, for that matter). i am an intensely personal person who is quite satisfied being alone and dont require the attention of others for my actions to validate them. when we are out together in public, we rarely even talk. often, he's running around doing the social things and attending to his friends, and i'm quite comfortable being left to my own devices. to him, my even being there in a public place with him is enough to demonstrate how much i care. i dont need reassurance from him that i'm his #1 priority all night, and truth be told i would not expect to be his #1 priority in a social situation and i would be fine with that. but we come together, and we leave together. and after all is said and done - he chooses to spend time with me. that says more than any actions to acknowledge me socially in front of his friends could ever speak. when we are alone, together - he opens up and talks about his inner motivations, and his hopes and dreams... the things that really matter to me. when we're in public, he knows that to me a public display of his affection towards me would only cheapen it because it is something that i dont value. when we're in public, i know that a public display of affection or appreciation towards him speaks volumes of how much i care about him because i am doing something i am uncomfortable with but i am willing to do it for him in a way that he appreciates - publicly, where other people can appreciate and validate it.

on a social scale, he is always busy. often things come up and get in the way of our plans. i know not to intrepret that as disrespect for me or our relationship - it is something that is important to him in a different way than our relationship is. i understand. but if i ever once ask him to cancel a plan - he will, for me, because i asked him. he knows i know his social plans are very important - and he knows that i wont ask him to cancel them unless it is very important to me... so when i DO ask him to cancel, he respects that and honors it.

the time and the amount and the type of time we spend together on their own are not important to me - but compared to his values and the time he spends together with other people... thats the measuring stick i look at to judge his seriousness. he spends many hours of the day with many people. he spends more time with me one on one than anyone else. he makes plans and cancels committments - but he will change all of that should i ask. he doesn't use social methods to show his love for me - he reaches me on terms that i truly appreciate. and vice versa.

does that help?

i think that the most positive element of the INTJ/ENTJ relationship is the kind of unspoken comradery - "we're in this together." as long as we know the other person believes in us, we can accomplish anything together.

Allie

01-02-2008, 10:31 AM

OK. I usually like to read about relationships to learn, and don't ususually give relationship advise since I don't have much experience in it.

However, I think your situation is almost close to what mine was when I first met my hubby. So, I'll relate my initial relationship with hubby and see if you can glean anything from it to help your case. We were also of the minds that we don't date just to date, and that it's to lead to marriage. So, we had to be sure.

There was a previous encounter (one half relationship) that I ran away from before it even got started. That's another story.

I fell in love with hubby at first sight, but ignored it and him. I did not want any relationship but to go to school and just study. He's an intuitive person and could read me very well though. He went through my family first. He met my parents and siblings and would hang out with all of us. We all know his intentions. However, I ignored him and just act like my sisters with him (my sisters went to college with him). I must not have been a good actress. He continued to come by and I continue to reject him, and did not give him any opportunity to get close at all. He went away eventually though.

When I started my freshman year in college a year later, he came back and professed his feelings and said that he went away and waited for me to grow up. He would have waited longer (wow, I must have been really immature. Wonder how long he would have waited), but he was afraid I would meet someone else before he got the chance to ask me. He was direct and honest about everything. I could not possibly have the energy nor the heart to reject him and my feelings the second time around.

Looking back, I am grateful that he was persistent and patient with me to come back. Otherwise, I think I would have ended up alone as of today.

Being direct and honest work best. I have a feeling the lack of understanding for your initial rejection is probably part of what kept her back. I see your point in waiting until things are sorted out between you two, but it's like a catch-22.

Also, to the poster recommending an interest (or pretend interst) in someone else, I respectfully disagree. I understand trying to force her emotions, but if you pretend interest in someone else to get her reaction, she won't react positively. It would only validate and add one more reasons to confirmed for her why she didn't want to get involve with you. That would just add another layer to the walls already there.

Now I'll go to my comfy couch and vegg to recharge my energy. Reading about relationships is fine, but expressing it is draining :)

Paul V

01-02-2008, 11:49 AM

Santana28

01-02-2008, 12:40 PM

She might be unable to read you. INTJs rely on the data they compile in order to make their cunning plans and make decisions. If she can't acquire information from you, she might panic. INTJs are not likely to make a romantic leap in the dark. She's probably intrigued by your behaviour, or perhaps she's unsure of what your intentions are.

To me, it's either that or she has a lot of baggage that has scarred her and now she's not sure whether to take a chance again.

thats a good point, and very true. ENTJs ive noticed are very misleading and its hard to pin down their true motivations, because they tend to project the image of themselves that they want people to see them as, vs their private image. INTJs dont seem to care about the image they project in the least, because to them who they ARE is the only image that anyone needs to see or know.

and thats very true - ENTJs seem to act first, see the response, and pass judgement after the fact. INTJs dont leap until they have already examined every possible option and then setting their mind on a course of action with contingiency plans in tow :)

Danisty

01-02-2008, 05:42 PM

I can only "know" what he said in the post. It is clear to me he is interested in her by his actions. She is supposed to be "NT" type, she should read that. If she tests the water, she aalready gets the "positive" result. Why does she "keep testing" it by "same method" to get the same results?I'm not sure she's testing it in the same method. The results have been the same and it seems the same from the outside, but nobody here knows what's going on in her head.

If a guy keeps asking a girl out for movie, lunch, dinner, do his actions speak he is interested in her? So, a guy should tell her directly he likes her (a lot).I wouldn't be able to read any of that to know how interested a guy is. All of my friends are guys and we go to movies, lunch, dinner, etc. all the time and that does not mean that they are interested in a relationship with me. It only means they are interested in spending time with me, which I would think would be normal for friends. If a guy is interested in me and he wants me to know it, he's gonna have to say it.

Now, why do you trust someone by words instead of by actions? For me, I will not trust anyone by words. Even though I read the books from reliable source, will think twice before accept the arguments. People can lie so that they can take advantage. (I am not saying he will lie though.)Because most of the actions associated with dating are cut and paste. Bringing flowers and sending cards is a really easy thing to do...so easy you can do it even if you don't care. Calling someone up and inviting them to go to a movie with you is not particularly intimate and could mean "hey I know we'll both like this movie...let's go check it out" and nothing more. If a guy can put into words how he feels, I can begin to test it and see if he's sincere. If I don't know what his actions mean, how am I supposed to judge them?

Danisty added to this post, 23 minutes and 37 seconds later...

If you told us more information in the first post, I believe most women may think differently here. However, I can not understand why half men said that you should make your intention clear. It is "very clear" by actions.It's clear to us because he's made his intentions clear to us already and we're hearing the story from him. That doesn't mean it's necessarily clear to her. I think he might need to tell her the reasons he backed out before and why he's changed his mind about it. I imagine she probably wants to know why. That's what I want to know most of the time.

Don't send her any gift (until you develop a serious relationship with her).
Don't call/email her until she is ready and call you (please read my reply).
Ideally don't see her in any circumstance.I agree that sending gifts at this point is useless, but I think avoiding her at all costs is only going to send the message that he's uninterested again and that will start her doubt all over again and confuse her even more and may make her distrust him altogether.

You may still lose her but there is a chance she will call you back in the future. I really think you should consider an alternative. Find another girl. If you date another girl, it will make you more desirable.Despite men's claims to the contrary, dating someone else is not a sure fire way of making women attracted to you. In fact, for me, that's final closure. This method assumes that women are jealous.

#4. if she knows what you're doing and she's cutting you off pre-emptively, then to me that says she still isnt sure she can trust you, or she cant trust herself around you. i cant underscore the importance of consistent actions and intentions to an INTJ... yes, no one is perfect. we all make mistakes. but in our heads if someone loves us and is honest then that means their actions are trustworthy and honest and a dishonest action signals the opposite, and its rather black and white. or on a more optimistic note - perhaps she is wildly attracted to you, and is simply afraid of losing her head around someone who she sees as having possibly questionable motives. i repeat again - if she thinks you only befriended her because you were romantically interested in her, then odds are your chances are shot. i could give you reasons for that if you want them.It's also possible that she isn't prepared to deal with this conversation right now. If she hasn't worked out her plan, then she won't know how to react and that would make her uncomfortable. She may be trying to work out all the scenarios in her head before she has to face the situation.

#5. you could either get her alone, or write her a letter telling her exactly your thought processes (if she and you have that much alike, then odds are she'll appreciate you all the more after learning you have similar thought processes). simply telling her what you want wont convince her that your motives are pure - but laying out exactly how you reached the conclusions you have reached will go a LONG way.Letters are great. You can say a lot more in a letter than you can say in person (at least, I can) and she'll feel more comfortable not having you there while she reacts to all of it. It will give her time to figure out how she's going to respond without the pressure of you sitting there waiting for an answer.

guy is my friend - yes/no. why or why not? selfish/unselfish? (fyi..charity or pity is considered selfish). if unselfish - why no relationship? different values? different social standings? different intelligence? not an option due to societal expectations? no physical attraction? all good? okay... proceed to sending out signals... signals accepted and positive feedback returned. feedback consistent with previous actions. sending stronger feedback... **danger danger** contradictory signal returned indicating question in motives. possible error in calculations. cancel all transmissions and recalculate. zzzz.... send out a test ping to gauge whether interest is still there... success.... ping again... success... still computing... receiving same signals as before.... no change... waiting for conclusive data.... zzzzzz........ This is exactly how it works for me too.

and thats very true - ENTJs seem to act first, see the response, and pass judgement after the fact. INTJs dont leap until they have already examined every possible option and then setting their mind on a course of action with contingiency plans in tow :)I think this is really important to remember. We don't like to make snap decisions and we want to be fully prepared for what we're getting into (even little things that seem to be of no consequence to others). It takes time to do this.

terencec

01-03-2008, 12:45 AM

Also, to the poster recommending an interest (or pretend interest) in someone else, I respectfully disagree. I understand trying to force her emotions, but if you pretend interest in someone else to get her reaction, she won't react positively. It would only validate and add one more reasons to confirmed for her why she didn't want to get involve with you. That would just add another layer to the walls already there.

You misunderstood what I mean. I do not mean he should pretend to interest in someone so she will be jealous and he could get her back. I really mean he should date someone else or even many other girls. If he still finds that girl so special later, he could chase her later only if she is ready The girl may be interested in him if he dates other girls but that is not the reason he dates other girls. So, he just does not waste time on the girl who is not interested in him right now.

I don't see "any hope" to chase the girl right now. IMO, there is nothing he could do now. There may be a chance in the future. Whether he dates the other girls or not, it does not matter. It will not change the fact she does not want a relationship right now. She just wants to be friend.

I think you assume she is interested. Does it mean he should let the girl controls him and runs around (same patterns happen again and again) for weeks/months/years? Hopefully, one day, everything is clear to her (if it really matters to her), she totally understands every decisions he made, she may accept him and want the relationship. Should he wait for that day to come? Is anything to justify he should wait? Why is she the only one?

It is "very fair" for him to date other girls if "she said she wanted to be just a friend" (Besides, she does not even pick up his call). We do respect what she wants.

Danisty:
She does not even talk to him. I convince if he keeps calling/email her for whatever reasons, she will have very negative feelings about him.

He said that she did not pick up his call. She said that she just wanted to be a friend. She did not show up at lunch when she knew he was going to tell her his feelings. So, is it still not clear she is not ready for relationship. Has he still to tell her he wants the relationship or explain any confusion in the past?! Is that really matter to explain why he did not chase her at the beginning since she just wants to be a friend?

I don't get it maybe I am slow. Most people here assume she is interested. So, she really wants a relationship but she said she wanted to be his friend and does not pick up his call without serious "thought".

I could not say she is no interested in him at all. However, right now, she is not ready.

I agree that sending gifts at this point is useless, but I think avoiding her at all costs is only going to send the message that he's uninterested again and that will start her doubt all over again and confuse her even more and may make her distrust him altogether.

What can he do? She does not want to see him or being call and does not want a relationship. Why do you think if he says some "magic words", she will want the relationship?

I just said he should let her know he cares about her and asks her to call him back if she is ready, and should not see her anymore until she calls. Is that what she wants? since she does not even want to talk to him. Now, she can decide what she wants and he will not keep pushing her to be his girlfriend. Whether he shows interests is irrelevant if she is no interested right now.

I don't mind if he tries your idea and see what happens if he could contact her!

It is not good for him to do so IMO. If you think it is good "for him" not just for the argument sake, I have no objection that he follows your suggestion. It is not my life, it is his life! The worst case is the girl will not see him forever. There are many other girls who are more pretty/intelligent ... So he could not lose anyway!

********************

BTW, you said

I wouldn't be able to read any of that to know how interested a guy is. All of my friends are guys and we go to movies, lunch, dinner, etc. all the time and that does not mean that they are interested in a relationship with me. It only means they are interested in spending time with me, which I would think would be normal for friends. If a guy is interested in me and he wants me to know it, he's gonna have to say it.

I really don't get what you mean. It may make sense if you go out with many guys at the same time, not always the same guy.

If you go out with the same guy "alone" all the time and he gives you gifts, introduces you to his family and talk some personal things about himself. Don't you know if he is interested or not? I recall you said you are married. You may ask your husband if he minds you do so. If he does not mind, you may think he is very "open-mind" guy but now, you may wonder why he does not care.

*********************

I don't pay too much attention to the MTBI type. It may tell us some attributes of the person. But it does not describe the whole person. It is impossible there are only 16 type of personality. If so, psychology will only need to study MTBI but nothing else.

To be honest, if I were him, I would like to believe she does not get it. It is just (so much) pain to believe otherwise. He already has asked many his friends, he is waiting somebody to tell him she does not get it. This is what I guess.

Santana28

01-03-2008, 09:45 AM

terencec

01-03-2008, 10:14 AM

terencec, dont be offended... but i really dont think you really understand this from the female INTJ perspective. i'm not even sure what point you are arguing anymore. we're trying to explain the female INTJ perspective for him. he already knows his own thoughts processes so there is no need to go through that. he knows what he wants to do, and i assume he trusts his own intuition better than those of the people on some random message board... this isn't a dating game, this is psychological chess ;)

I already mention MTBI cannot describe the whole person. If so, It will not take 4 years to get a BS Psychology degree. How can we know she is the same as other INTJ girls because he thinks she is "XNTJ" .

I don't think anyone should only date one girl (before they get very serious and they both agree) and put all the eggs in one basket. Why? In his case, he should not. So this is my point. Besides, I really want to see how you get your points and your arguments. But you just tell me I don't see INTJ girls perspective. You see I put a lot of effort in my arguments and you just tell me one sentence. It is not fair.:)

Since he asks, I can express my view. What he is going to do, I could not control.

Danisty

01-03-2008, 10:50 AM

You misunderstood what I mean. I do not mean he should pretend to interest in someone so she will be jealous and he could get her back. I really mean he should date someone else or even many other girls. If he still finds that girl so special later, he could chase her later only if she is ready The girl may be interested in him if he dates other girls but that is not the reason he dates other girls. So, he just does not waste time on the girl who is not interested in him right now.This may be what you meant, but it is not what you said.

I think you assume she is interested. Does it mean he should let the girl controls him and runs around (same patterns happen again and again) for weeks/months/years? Hopefully, one day, everything is clear to her (if it really matters to her), she totally understands every decisions he made, she may accept him and want the relationship. Should he wait for that day to come? Is anything to justify he should wait? Why is she the only one?No, but I don't believe I've said he should. You're only looking at extremes. I'm not suggesting he should pine away for her or that he should just forget about her. He's already said he doesn't want to just forget about her. Why should he date other women if he doesn't want to? Surely there are many things he could do besides pursuing her. I'm sure he has friends and hobbies and other interests he could focus on. He doesn't need to sabotage his chances just because she's uncertain right now.

She does not even talk to him. I convince if he keeps calling/email her for whatever reasons, she will have very negative feelings about him.Again, this does not mean he has to chase after other girls. I sure hope there is more to his life than finding a woman.

He said that she did not pick up his call. She said that she just wanted to be a friend. She did not show up at lunch when she knew he was going to tell her his feelings. So, is it still not clear she is not ready for relationship. Has he still to tell her he wants the relationship or explain any confusion in the past?! Is that really matter to explain why he did not chase her at the beginning since she just wants to be a friend?I gave likely explanations for her behavior in my last post.

It is not good for him to do so IMO. If you think it is good "for him" not just for the argument sake, I have no objection that he follows your suggestion. It is not my life, it is his life! The worst case is the girl will not see him forever. There are many other girls who are more pretty/intelligent ... So he could not lose anyway!I can't say what's good for him and I'm not trying to. I'm answering the questions. If I went out and dated someone else every time my husband and I split up when we were dating, we never would have gotten married. I don't see what's wrong with his determination.

I really don't get what you mean. It may make sense if you go out with many guys at the same time, not always the same guy.

If you go out with the same guy "alone" all the time and he gives you gifts, introduces you to his family and talk some personal things about himself. Don't you know if he is interested or not?Honestly, you are not describing anything that hasn't happened with my friends! Maybe I just have very close friendships, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. To me, there is no difference between a female friend and a male friend. We all treat each other the same. I don't think anyone would think it was weird for female friends to go out alone together, buy each other gifts, meet each other's families and talk about personal things. For me at least, my male friends are no different.

I recall you said you are married. You may ask your husband if he minds you do so. If he does not mind, you may think he is very "open-mind" guy but now, you may wonder why he does not care.I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Could you try to reword it?

I already mention MTBI cannot describe the whole person. If so, It will not take 4 years to get a BS Psychology degree. How can we know she is the same as other INTJ girls because he thinks she is "XNTJ".Does it matter? He asked for the perspective of INTJ females and so far, we all seem to have very similar perspectives on it. By your reasoning, there would be no point in anyone asking anyone for advice unless they could drag the people in their lives to a psychologist's office for analysis.

I don't think anyone should only date one girl (before they get very serious and they both agree) and put all the eggs in one basket.I think this is the real reason you don't understand what others here are saying. Not everyone takes the same approach for dating and dating many people at once is not going to work for everyone. There is no way I could ever date more than one person at a time.

Besides, I really want to see how you get your points and your arguments. But you just tell me I don't see INTJ girls perspective. You see I put a lot of effort in my arguments and you just tell me one sentence. It is not fair.:)That's not fair. Santana28 has probably given more detailed insight into the female INTJ mind than anyone else in this thread. You may not have understood her points, but she has not answered these posts with one sentence. I get the feeling you don't really want to understand our perspective so much as you want to argue that our perspective isn't as good as yours.

terencec

01-03-2008, 11:22 AM

I think this is the real reason you don't understand what others here are saying. Not everyone takes the same approach for dating and dating many people at once is not going to work for everyone. There is no way I could ever date more than one person at a time.

He can just date one girl (or no girl) at a time. I will not even consider he dates one girl right now. So what is wrong to date another girl? Do you consider he is dating now?

That's not fair. Santana28 has probably given more detailed insight into the female INTJ mind than anyone else in this thread. You may not have understood her points, but she has not answered these posts with one sentence. I get the feeling you don't really want to understand our perspective so much as you want to argue that our perspective isn't as good as yours.

I think I do understand your points. You basically argue your female INTJ view. That is nothing I can argue. I could not prove it is right or wrong (so I would not even consider it) It is just what you think how she behaves. There are not much reasons to back up what you claim (I could not see it). You said XNTJ girls thought that way so the girl would think the similar way.

To make your XNTJ perspective work, you have to assume most/all XNTJ female behaviors are the same/smiliar. I am very doubt the assumption is correct. MTBI is just a very simplified model of human behavior.

Some questions you did not answer directly (not the ones you said you did not understand). I cannot get what I asked. Anyway, I don't have any extra information to add. So will stop here.

Santana28

01-03-2008, 11:52 AM

To make your XNTJ perspective work, you have to assume most/all XNTJ female behaviors are the same/smiliar. I am very doubt the assumption is correct. MTBI is just a very simplified model of human behavior.

Some questions you did not answer directly (not the ones you said you did not understand). I cannot get what I asked. Anyway, I don't have any extra information to add. So will stop here.

i'm not trying to make my "perspective work" as you put it - i have nothing to gain or lose from this conversation. I dont assume all female INTJs share my characteristics - i'm not in the business of making assumptions. i am sharing facts of my own personality and experiences for the benefit of luther who may or may not benefit from the information i am sharing. i am not judging the value of the information i am sharing - i'm offering it to luther to assist him in judging his own particular situation. if he asks my opinion, i gladly offer it - but i make no judgement on it other than it is the best conclusion i can come up with in my mind from the experience i have and the information i know. thats it.

anyways... luther... thanks for the interesting discussion :) if you have any more questions, PM me and i'll do my best.

Danisty

01-03-2008, 12:23 PM

He can just date one girl (or no girl) at a time. I will not even consider he dates one girl right now. So what is wrong to date another girl? Do you consider he is dating now?

I think I do understand your points. You basically argue your female INTJ view. That is nothing I can argue. I could not prove it is right or wrong (so I would not even consider it) It is just what you think how she behaves. There are not much reasons to back up what you claim (I could not see it). You said XNTJ girls thought that way so the girl would think the similar way.

To make your XNTJ perspective work, you have to assume most/all XNTJ female behaviors are the same/smiliar. I am very doubt the assumption is correct. MTBI is just a very simplified model of human behavior.

Some questions you did not answer directly (not the ones you said you did not understand). I cannot get what I asked. Anyway, I don't have any extra information to add. So will stop here.I don't get why you think we are putting too much emphasis on the INTJ thing when the question was framed that way. As it turns out, most of the INTJ women here had the same perspective. Do you think it's not interesting or useful that we have agreed? I would be sharing the same perspective even if we weren't on an INTJ forum. I would be explaining the same things, but since we all are familiar with MBTI, why shouldn't I use that as a reference when it is useful to do so? And yes I consider that he is dating right now, although not particularly successfully. That is why he asked for our opinions.

What I would really like to know is what you were trying to ask about my husband.

terencec

01-03-2008, 01:05 PM

I don't get why you think we are putting too much emphasis on the INTJ thing when the question was framed that way. As it turns out, most of the INTJ women here had the same perspective. Do you think it's not interesting or useful that we have agreed? I would be sharing the same perspective even if we weren't on an INTJ forum. I would be explaining the same things, but since we all are familiar with MBTI, why shouldn't I use that as a reference when it is useful to do so? And yes I consider that he is dating right now, although not particularly successfully. That is why he asked for our opinions.

If you consider he is dating, anyone is "on one way track" is also dating. But that is your definition. There is nothing to argue about the definition. My definition of dating is very different. I see he tries to date her and she refuses or runs around. The dating has not even started yet in my definition.

I just want to see the arguments besides what you think she will behave (IMO, It is "good" to put it in your arguments but I don't want to see that is your main/only argument.)

Don't worry my question about you husband, it is not very important and it is not trying to offense you or your husband at all.

I want to see how you get your conclusions. If you invalidate my arguments very well, I have no problem to agree what you said. I could not totally agree your arguments. I can only say we have different perspective.

Danisty

01-03-2008, 01:16 PM

If you consider he is dating, anyone is "on one way track" is also dating. But that is your definition. There is nothing to argue about the definition. My definition of dating is very different. I see he tries to date her and she refuses or runs around. The dating has not even started yet in my definition.She's not just running from him though. She's coming back too and she hasn't been clear at all whether or not they are dating. This is all pointless though. No matter what she is doing, he is "courting" her. I don't see why he should go after other women. Your original argument stated that it would make her more attracted to him, but then you backed out of that, so now I don't know why you are suggesting this. To me, it sounds like he's already made the decision to pursue her so that wasn't really the question. The question was how.

I just want to see the arguments besides what you think she will behave (IMO, It is "good" to put it in your arguments but I don't want to see that is your main/only argument.)I don't understand your question. We were asked to try and shed some light on a behavior. I don't think the OP has asked us whether or not he should give up. His questions seem to be about how he should proceed. I'm not sure if it's really my place to tell him to give up or proceed.

Don't worry my question about you husband, it is not very important and it is not trying to offense you or your husband at all.I wasn't thinking you were trying to offend us. I was just wondering what you were getting at because maybe it could help me explain my perspective better.

I want to see how you get your conclusions. If you invalidate my arguments very well, I have no problem to agree what you said.I get my conclusions from experience. I'm not trying to invalidate your arguments or get you to agree with me. I'm just telling things from my point of view. Who knows if I'm wrong or right? Only the woman in question can know that and she isn't even here.

deicruxified

01-03-2008, 01:18 PM

Is this a normal INTJ female phenomenon or do I have a unique case on my hands? Would love to hear your perspectives!
hmm if you were someone i know, i guess both of you have the same case. i feel scared in a sense that hmm... let's say to be safe that i have been once in a 'not-so-good' (quoted to sanitize) relationship before. although i do want to be with this person, in whatever aspect of our lives we click together, i still hold back for the reasons (1) he might take advantage of me (2) he doesn't reciprocate (3) will it make sense to him (4) and more reasons which only i will have to know. just last week i happen to drop by their house to drop some stuff, i felt an unusual generosity from his mom. at that time, i was thinking, 'would it be maicious enough for me to think that he has been telling things about me?' and not only that, his dad drove me home...

bottomline... i'm still scared... of a lot of things... and i think it's because the feeling is an unfamiliar territory...

am i making sense? no? it's really hard to explain.

terencec

01-03-2008, 01:56 PM

She's not just running from him though. She's coming back too and she hasn't been clear at all whether or not they are dating. This is all pointless though. No matter what she is doing, he is "courting" her. I don't see why he should go after other women. Your original argument stated that it would make her more attracted to him, but then you backed out of that, so now I don't know why you are suggesting this. To me, it sounds like he's already made the decision to pursue her so that wasn't really the question. The question was how.

My points were: (Bases on what I have seen and my definition of dating, then make the conclusion)
1. She runs around.
2. She is not serious about the relationship. (By reading his second post, I don't think he is even dating her at all. But just let's assume she is just not serious at all.)
3. He dates another woman. IMO, it is "very fair" if she is not serious. ("Don't waste time on only one girl")
4. The girl may want him if he is dating another girl (side effect, he does it not because he wants her back. He does it because he can find another one and don't want to waste time on only one girl. But if she is ready later and he can decide if he wants her.)

I don't think I back off what I say (I just have not told the whole story). I can see why you think so. Anyway, let you be the judge.

Danisty

01-03-2008, 02:14 PM

.

My points were: (Bases on what I have seen and my definition of dating, then make the conclusion)
1. She runs around.
2. She is not serious about the relationship. (By reading his second post, I don't think he is even dating her at all. But just let's assume she is just not serious at all.)
3. He dates another woman. IMO, it is "very fair" if she is not serious. ("Don't waste time on only one girl")
4. The girl may want him if he is dating another girl (side effect, he does it not because he wants her back. He does it because he can find another one and don't want to waste time on only one girl. But if she is ready later and he can decide if he wants her.)

I don't think I back off what I say (I just have not told the whole story). I can see why you think so. Anyway, let you be the judge.I'm starting to believe this conversation is mostly pointless. It doesn't have anything to do with the OP at this point. I've given my point of view and tried my best to communicate with you why I hold this point of view (even though it doesn't really matter since it's luther I'm trying to help). I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but I feel that you are still trying to convince me of something and trying and get me to convince you of something. I'm not interested in doing that.

Verde

01-03-2008, 02:51 PM

quote by terencec: "I don't get it maybe I am slow. Most people here assume she is interested. So, she really wants a relationship but she said she wanted to be his friend and does not pick up his call without serious "thought".

No you are not slow, and it’s hard to understand. You are right we don’t know if she’s interested, and we can never know, but I would like repeat that myself and some others here SHOW we are interested in less obvious ways than other women, and because of this I think love interests think that we are not interested because they can’t pick up on the subtle signals we put out there.

quote by terencec: Verde, on the other hand, I think you are much easier to deal with if you are what you claimed. If all women like you (i.e. we can directly tell you the feelings), this world will be much better.

I think the guys who give up on you don't know too much about you.

Yes, they can be direct with me because its what I’m most likely to respond to. But I am not easy to deal with because I won’t be direct with them until I am CLEAR on their intentions, and they probably think they are being clear, but to me they aren’t. I picked a poor choice of words when I said that they “give up.” They probably just think I’m not interested.

quote by terencec If you go out with the same guy "alone" all the time and he gives you gifts, introduces you to his family and talk some personal things about himself. Don't you know if he is interested or not?

I wrote this response before I saw danisty’s -I’ve had relationships with males that sound like this and it has never lead anywhere, I do these things with females as well, they are called close friends. I never assume that my male friends have a love interest in me unless they show me otherwise.

I had more responses ready for things that you were saying but the others in this forum beat me to saying them-which shows that once again what they are saying may have some weight. I’m not saying what I do is the correct way to approach things, but its what I do. And from seeing the responses of the females on this post-I’ m not alone, and that there is a possibility that luther’s subject of interest feels the same way.

It would be ideal if both sides were as direct as possible. However that’s not easy is it? Being direct means being vulnerable-it means taking a risk to get hurt and be shot down, directly. However, it’s a risk worth taking sometimes and something I am trying to learn to do more.
So luther, if she means a lot to you, my advice is to take that risk, if its in her face, she has to deal with it-and can stop asking “What if” because you have showed her What is. Going to her is the only way in my eyes, after all she is the source and she is the only one who can truly answer you! As you can see we can only give you insight into how we think, and I don't know how much that is helping you at this point.

Allie

01-05-2008, 04:49 PM