Is this the odd beginning of an agonizing INTJ courtship?

[sedna]

I had to register to these forums to get any suggestions/comments about someone I suspect is an INTJ. If he isn’t, I’m sure you’ll let me know. My heart is breaking right now, so my ramblings might not make total sense, but here goes…

This guy is pretty new to my area…about a year now. At first sight you’ll see a very well-dressed man. Immaculate in appearance. Pays attention to every detail. He also seems pretty oblivious to his surroundings. He's always alone. I've never seen him speak to another person, ever. Even when someone bumps into him. Seems trapped in his head much of the time...that is until I arrive on the scene.

At this point, he usually stares at me the entire time…mostly in the train station on the way to work. I figured he was looking at someone else at first, I dunno...anyone but oddball-me. I didn’t think I was his type. He seems so orderly and fastidious. I’m kinda that way, but it manifests in other ways.

My schedule is pretty erratic, so I don't see him regularly, but I've fallen for him. Suddenly I'm looking for him everywhere.

About two months ago, we see each other from a distance on the subway platform. Finally! And I make eye contact for a long time with him. The train barrels into the station and we lose touch. On the connecting train platform, I notice he gets off, and walks up to where I am, but I'm continuing on the original train. So nothing.

A month later I see him in a building in the city, but in my head, I just recognized this familiar looking person, and I run up to him and say hi. By then it clicks in my brain that we don’t know each other, I get embarrassed and start rambling, “we see each other all the time...blah...blah...just wanted to make contact…

He looks horrified.

I then turn around embarrassed, and vow to never see him again.

For the next few workdays, I see him looking at my apartment building, wondering when I'm going to come out. (I didn’t even know he knew where I lived!) Mind you, this guy is on time every day...like clockwork he gets in the train station at 7:55...no earlier, no later. The next day, I get down there at 8:11 figuring he would have gone. I go to my regular spot and look back and see him there. The train barrels into the station and yet another opportunity squandered.

The next day, I'm determined to get closure and find out if he likes me or not. I watch him go in at 7:55 and then go down after. I look at him and say hi.

He immediately is looking every other place, then he decides to look at me and grab my hand. You have to understand this guy is very cool-looking all the time. Doesn't sweat. Very put together. Yet he' s unraveling before my eyes.

I tell him I wasn't stalking him or anything, when I said hi to him the other day. He jokes, yet he’s nervous. I joke with a big laugh and a smile. The train barrels into the station and he finally lets my hand go.

We get in the same car this time. He stands as far away as possible from me and other people get in between us. I get discouraged and figure he doesn't like me. I wonder if he's embarrassed by me, as I'm very boho in my appearance & overweight, and he's very tall, slim & brooks brothers. I don't know why he would bother staring at me for almost a year if he didn't like me.

Anyway, this time I figure he really, really doesn't like me and have no hope. The next day I see him from my window looking at my building. I’m working from my studio that week so I don’t go out early. (I’m a night person so I don’t get up early if I don’t have to, but of course now I'm obsessed and get up from my bed to stalk him as he's stalking me. I notice he’s not on time, like usual, and he's looking to see when I'm going to emerge, but I wasn't that week.

I think he’s given up or is frustrated. I haven't seen him at all in a week and a half. I don't know if the situation was so painful or anxiety-producing for him he decided to find another route or what. Or maybe he just hates me and finds me repulsive.

All I know is that I have had a lifetime of attraction to guys like this. Long attractions - years...a decade once...and nothing ever materializes. We're not exactly teenagers...I would guess we both are late 30-40 years of age, so this isn't normal behavior at all. I do wonder if he has problems connecting with people…specifically women he likes.

I reached out to this guy because I didn't want it to be yet another case of unrequited love and wondering what could have happened. I never reach out to anyone, and the one time I do, he leaves? I find myself once again crying over someone I've emotionally invested in, I really don't know. I’m now convinced I’ll be alone forever.

[JohnDoe]

My universal answer to these questions: ask him on a date the next time you see him.

[Rudy]

Two things: One, I think you've built up a deep attraction on very little material, which is not wise. There's a good chance you will be disappointed, even if you're able to make a stronger connection with him.

Two, do what JohnDoe said and ask him out. If he says yes, great. If not then, no lie, it will really suck for a bit, but that's the only way you'll be able to put it behind you.

[curiousjane]

When you are on the train station, is there anything near where you stand that would warrant a stare in your direction?

Like a clock?

Or a strange poster?

Or potentially a really great stare-at-nothing-while-I-think-out-my-day-in-advance spot?

[sedna]

Johndoe, ask him on a date? The last time I asked a guy out on a date I was 16. It didn't go well. I've never asked anyone since...

Rudy, thanks for stating the obvious. i just don't know how to operate any other way. I've tried emotionless connecting. Doesn't work for me.

Curiousjane, yes I thought of that too when I first saw him staring. That's why I waited several months to return the eye contact. There were too many random spots without other people and distractions. It's me he's looking at. Otherwise it's a book or paper.

[JohnDoe]

Johndoe, ask him on a date? The last time I asked a guy out on a date I was 16. It didn't go well. I've never asked anyone since...

Ok let me walk you through this :) You go up to him, you find out his name, then ask him to coffee/lunch/whatever. What is the worst that can happen? he says no? But look at the upside if he says yes... Seems like a risk worth taking yes?

[Vagrant]

This sounds way too much like a movie.

Just because he stands far away, doesn't mean he doesn't like you. It sounds like he's really shy, and doesn't know what to do. If you're serious about him, then ask him out. Because it doesn't seem he knows how to do it.

[altoid]

I see him looking at my apartment building, wondering when I'm going to come out. (I didn’t even know he knew where I lived!)

That's a little disconcerting to me, but I know I'm only getting a glimpse of what's going on here.

I third/fourth/whatever the idea of just asking him out. Something low-key in a neutral location. Coffee or lunch is good. If he says yes, awesome. If he says no, there will be other mysterious men to sweep you off your feet. :)

[sedna]

Johndoe, I know his name. But I would like the guy to be more proactive. It seems I attract introverted guys who never ever seem to take the risk for me. I've done a lot of risking with him already. I intintiated two conversations with him. Doesn't it occur to him that it's hard for me too? I dunno, that just seems selfish to expect one person to do the heavy-lifting and may be a red flag.

Vagrant, my life is frequently cinematic, so it's no surprise you would say that. However in my case, I'm always stuck in the middle of the 2nd act, like Groundhog Day.

[Monte314]

He could be married.

[quiet intensity]

We get in the same car this time. He stands as far away as possible from me and other people get in between us. I get discouraged and figure he doesn't like me. I wonder if he's embarrassed by me, as I'm very boho in my appearance & overweight, and he's very tall, slim & brooks brothers. I don't know why he would bother staring at me for almost a year if he didn't like me.

This is almost exactly how I found my last relationship (now ex, after 1 1/2 years). We would see each other on our work commute on the subway, off-and-on for about 9 months. Not even every day or week - but regularly. When the staring became a regular occurrence, I chalked it up to a "subway crush" - the type that you'll most likely never meet, never have anything in common, not available to date, etc.

One instance in particular: When I got on the train one morning, I turned to my left and there he was, right next to me. In my head, I thought "Finally, a chance to interact." When we made eye contact, his eyes got big and he literally stepped a few feet away and ignored me. I was crushed - I thought I had misread the signals and was being a creep. Then, a few days later, the staring from a distance starts again, I stare back, etc. I was thoroughly confused at that point, but realized how awkward it is to meet in those public circumstances. It takes real guts to push through our own awkwardness, or fear of approaching on a train - especially when both people are plugged into their mp3 players.

I always had the bias that if a person approaches you on a subway, they are either crazy or desperate. But that is not always the case.

He would not stare for a year if he didn't like you, on some level.

I met him by finally approaching him, he said hi, I said hi, and we talked. After a few weeks, I asked him about the incident I mentioned above. Of course he remembered it - he backed away not from disinterest, but because he was intimidated that his commute crush was right in front of him. "But I thought you weren't interested." "No, I thought you were the one who wasn't interested."

Yes, it's hard to know what is inside other people's heads. An attempt at a normal conversation to gauge his interest (and yours) would be a good thing.

Sedna - I just read your recent post. If you've initiated 2 conversations and no ideal reply from him, that is not necessarily a red flag. Yes, men usually go after what they want. Perhaps he isn't sure about you, or is taking a wait-and-see approach. Or, as you said, maybe he is not a proactive guy. Try talking to him again, say hi, and ask open-ended questions. You can be tricky about determining if he is single, without interrogating him. See if you can draw him out to talk more, before giving up.

[ElstonGunn]

But I would like the guy to be more proactive. It seems I attract introverted guys who never ever seem to take the risk for me. I've done a lot of risking with him already. I intintiated two conversations with him. Doesn't it occur to him that it's hard for me too? I dunno, that just seems selfish to expect one person to do the heavy-lifting and may be a red flag.

Unless you left out some big parts of the story, it sounds like you haven't done much risking with him. Although it depends on what the conversations were like, I suppose.

Why is it important to you that he be more proactive? If he's not the type of person who will do that, are you willing to do it, or will you give up on him, or will you vainly continue to pine for him?

[sedna]

Altoid, no he doesn't seem scary to me or anything. No need for alarm. It's possible he spotted me on my way into my apartment.

Monte, I never once thought he might be married. Not once. This makes sense, unfortunately. Then why draw me in? It's so inconsiderate if he has no intention of pursuing.

Elston, maybe you missed the part where I mention that I'm shy too. I reached out to him twice. I like when a man goes out of his way to intiate, even though he is clearly shy. "Why is it important to you that he be more proactive?" I want him to acknowledge my beauty, my worth and desireability...especially since I am overweight. Is that so wrong? I rarely get that, so I want it. That is very important to me. I also think it's immature to expect one person to do the heavy-lifting.

Quiet, that's hopeful and sweet. Was he an INFJ? Subway attractions can be hairy. At this point I have no idea if I will seem him again. It just seems those situations never pan out for me. I'm so emotionally-exhausted and I don't know him. This is why I'm almost never in relationships. All this happens so organically for other women. For me, never.

[green eyes]

It sounds like you like the mystery more than the man....

But if you really want to be with this man and believe him to be interested and just "shy", then you should accept him for who he is and what he is and isn't willing or able to do. Unless he is misinterpreting your signals, as was the case with quiet intensity and her ex.

You know, you might have a guy here that finds you extremely desireable, but you just might not ever find that out in the way you are hoping to. If you do more work to get the ball rolling (like by being clear and straightforward), you could end up in a relationship that is even better than the best ideas of them that you dance around in your head. Is holding on to your shyness as an excuse, is the dream of having the guy initiate things...is it more important than being happily in love at this point of your life?

I hope you see him again. He could be on vacation or something for the time being.

[rangardrum]

Do you have any idea why he grabbed your hand and held it? That seems like a very unlikely behavior from a guy who is uncomfortable with a person.

[sedna]

green, I can't help who I'm drawn to, but in recent years I've come to appreciate directness. It could be that, yes we both are misinterpreting signals, and maybe I need to be more direct (if that's possible). is the dream of having the guy initiate things...is it more important than being happily in love at this point of your life?" green, you would have to know my history to know why this is extremely important to me. I hope he is on vacation, but by the time I see him again, I may have burnt myself out thinking of him, and too weary to respond if he does something. I can't bear another long infatuation with someone. Too painful.

rangardrum, he introduced himself to me and held out his hand, I shook it, expecting to get it back. He held on a little long and let go when the train came. I don't know how to interpret that, given that seconds later he ignored me.

[quiet intensity]

Quiet, that's hopeful and sweet. Was he an INFJ? Subway attractions can be hairy. At this point I have no idea if I will seem him again. It just seems those situations never pan out for me. I'm so emotionally-exhausted and I don't know him. This is why I'm almost never in relationships. All this happens so organically for other women. For me, never.

I could never get him to take MBTI, but INFJ was one of my guesses.

as was the case with quiet intensity and her ex.

.....and his ex. He didn't want to be the creepy male aggressor on a train commute, and neither did I want to be that, hence the 9 month staring contest. My general point for anyone - stop staring and do something. I wasn't forward enough and I should have been. It would have saved me time, in hindsight. Lesson learned.

Hence, sedna, his holding onto your hand a bit longer than normal. It's not incredibly forward of him, but it's what he felt safe doing. You need to find out more.

[JohnDoe]

He didn't want to be the creepy male aggressor on a train commute
Yeah, please don't underestimate this. It may be he doesn't want to ask you out because he thinks you think it will be creepy -- you need to give him clear permission to if your not going to ask him out.

[curiousjane]

is the dream of having the guy initiate things...is it more important than being happily in love at this point of your life?" green, you would have to know my history to know why this is extremely important to me.
If it is extremely important to you, then don't sell yourself short. Hold out for initiation you long for. If it is only somewhat important to you, ask him out.

But that's just me speaking. I made the first move in a relationship once, and it ended poorly. I am currently in a wonderful relationship, and HE made the first move, much to my delight. I'm glad I waited for that.

But ... there are plenty of others who know the opposite to have worked just as well, if not better, than my own story.

[Storm]

Well, that was a very interesting read. It really does sound like you've placed yourself as the protagonist in a romance novel. I actually ran a search on some of your post to make sure it wasn't actually an excerpt from a romance novel.

Life is not a romance novel.

So far you've rejected everyone's straight forward advice of "actually ask him to coffee." So, if you want him to make the first move, you need to do some heavy, big time flirting to let him know that's what you want (let's be honest, it's never actually the man that makes the first move). You need to stand close to him, wink, smile, motion for him to sit next to you on the train. Because if you've stopped talking to him after he introduced himself and shook your hand, he's going to take that as a sign of disinterest. When you see him outside your apartment (during the day, night time seems a little sketch), make that an excellent time that you need to "take out the trash" or "check your mail" or "run to the store for a carton of milk" or maybe even "go grab a coffee" ;).

We can only give advice for what you can do, not him.

[JohnDoe]

I actually ran a search on some of your post to make sure it wasn't actually an excerpt from a romance novel.

Life is not a romance novel.


This needs to be emphasized to some INFJ's at times. :p

[green eyes]

Who do you think writes the romance novels? :p

[JohnDoe]

Who do you think writes the romance novels? :p

I can't stand romance novels for the record... but I'll hazard ISFJ's :P

[pocohauntus]

My general point for anyone - stop staring and do something.
I generally stare at a lot of different people. From a girl in the grocery store to some man across the street to others that surround me as I work around the house or when I go out to run errands. So - what is it that you suggest I do?

[quiet intensity]

I generally stare at a lot of different people. From a girl in the grocery store to some man across the street to others that surround me as I work around the house or when I go out to run errands. So - what is it that you suggest I do?
I should have clarified my earlier statement. There are obviously different types of staring - infatuation, mild interest, amusement, reminder of an old classmate, etc. - and many possibilities and reasons for looking at someone. I do it, too.

My general point for anyone (in sedna's situation) - less thinking, more action. That was the intent of my statement.

[Vagrant]

Who do you think writes the romance novels? :p

My mother does, she's INTJ.