INTJ is not an ideal. Warning: rant ahead:

[Mechanical Messiah]

First of all, I'd like to say that I've enjoyed these forums over the past couple weeks. I think ya'll are an intelligent bunch of folks, and I enjoy the fact that ya'll have the wit and attention span to make a meaningful, thought-out arguement on most any subject. I also like the tacit understanding of the underlying wierdness that defines folks who test as INTJ.

But I've repeatedly seen certain comments around here that drive me nuts. I have yet to address these as staying on-topic seems more important than fostering discussion to the powers that be around here. Well... in belated honor of Festivus, I'm airing my grievence:

The INTJ personality profile is NOT AN IDEAL. It's nothing to strive for. It's a simplified description of certain preferences & strengths... not a medal of honor. Sure, I'm somewhat introverted, strongly intuitive, strongly T (though that F side has been rearing its ugly head more in the past few years), and moderately J. I don't particularly want to be MORE of any of these... or less; that's cause these are largely preferences. Nor do I dismiss the ideas of folks with different preferences than my own. Life is not as logical as some would pretend that it is, and I've learned the value of people who approach a problem or question differently that I might.

Don't get me wrong- this is not a direct accusation of any particular individual. These are my perceptions, based on the following list of what I consider trite and ill-concieved comments:

(all paraphrased- I'm too lazy to quote-mine)

"are you sure you're an INTJ?"
"you sound more like an NF/idealist"
"I want to be the best INTJ I can be"
"I am the king of logic: Spock incarnate!" (I'm having a little fun with this one. You get the idea.)

So next time you imply your superiority based on a meyers/briggs profile... just know that a half-naked hillbilly somewhere is rolling his eyes at you.

/rant.

[Hdier]

Yeah, I remember hearing comments like 'oh my gosh, I think I was acting like an F', or something along those lines, as if F was a bad thing, and T was a good one. Granted, I value my strong T and it is very usefull, but F is positive to in many ways, such as helping to motivate people.

Incedentally, this is the problem I always had with Vulcans (if you're not familiar with Star Trek, they are basically the Essence of T, except they have pointy ears): They would be able to use time efficiantly and stuff, but never (from what I saw) 'got' that other beings don't, and can't simply repress their emotions, and need motivation! They are logical enough that they should be able to figure this out!

[deicruxified]

true true

the endless attachment to intj. for some scoring intj is a badge like some person i talked to before

"it's really nice to be an intj we're the best"

and he even went like this

"come on you're an intj how come you're not....like this and that blah blah"
"i think that's and e thing"

and based on that person, i should not be doing the following because i am an intj:

1. hang out with e's
2. kart race because it's an e thing
3. read fantasy novels
4. go camping because it's for e people
5. be addicted to symbollic logic
6. be romantic

and a lot of things. and for all you know, this guy belongs in this forum...i am known for having the longest patience but i don't like people boxing me up to a certain personality. if ever i value myself as a great person, that is because i made a decision to be one not because i am an intj to begin with. i am what i am way before i took the mbti and no psych test nor intj can tell me who i am or what i should do. i know myself and i know what to do with my life so here's a flying finger for you

..|.,

i may have known a little about mbti (what the hell are Ni, Fe, anyway... what about an FU for you?) but i am not as naive as you think when it comes to self-assessment. i might snip of your weak geeky drooping balls when i go there in your place... now you'll see hannibal lecter! and for those who take pride in scoring intj's in the mbti for the nth time, whether you took it online or you paid some psych for the test, congratulations for 3 possible reasons:

1. for being true to yourself if ever you answered honestly
2. for staying 'sweet and thoughtful' as you've always been **sarcastic slumbook dedicatory (is there such a word or am i inventing?) note
3. for reviewing and studying the mbti for eons thus being consistently wrong in your answers as you've always been answering according to your ideal type of person not the real you. there is a difference between answering psych tests based on your ideals and based on yourself.

...either way, you answered true or not, the only person you are fooling is no one else but yourself.

**rolls eyes**

/rant





deicruxified added to this post, 6 minutes and 27 seconds later...

@ mechanical messiah - thanks for starting this thread. it has removed a thorn in my side

[banzai]

Maybe the problem is that there are very few other types here to point out and accentuate all of the flaws typically associated with that personality type...

[Tsuru]

omg y'all are bad INTJs
you must be embittered and isolating and WITHOUT MERCY FOR THE WEAK

whats wrong with you:(

[niffer]

People do slowly change to become what they see as their ideal for themselves. It's what happens when will and opinion collide (along with some input from forms of media, I'm sure).

INTJs are very, very simple people. I used to pretend to be like you guys in public. Closed to the world, analytical, and high-performance. I wanted to seem perfect mentally. But then I didn't like how I was treated by social people. I watched the normal people that seemed to be happy all the time, and adopted their characteristics. I discovered that people liked me when I acted like them. I liked the feeling being liked, and I wanted to keep going. I was always an ENFP...just an extremely shy one that preferred to watch the world and take things in with the time that I could have spent building bonds with other little children. Now my ENFP nature has been allowed to come out, and this is an example of changing yourself through your own will. It may seem unnatural to anyone reading this, especially anyone who is introverted, but I believe that it has been for the best for me. The change has made me a happier person.

It is good to have an ideal. But please don't limit yourselves in ways that prevent your multi-faceted personalities from being fully expressed. It is not wrong to be you.

[Epicurus]

In reality I don't think any INTJ here is to serious about it. Only the unpure <insert other mbti type than our own perfection> act like that there and are completely serious about it.

The problem is that; the others don't understand that they must be destroyed for the greater good, we sometimes have trouble detecting how serious someone is or isn't, and Im just trying to be a smartass aswell as a lot of you people I think and/or a lot of us are only wannabe INTJs.

[qwerty]

I'm not so sure about discouraging this line of thinking.. I mean at the end of the day this is just system for identifying like minded people (though everyone is different), but still it strikes me that perhaps identifying strengths and weaknesses in people who are categorized as similar can help people new to myer briggs (like myself) and people who have familiarized themselves with it over the years understand themselves and perhaps work towards developing natural tendencies that due to circumstance have never fully developed, or merely build within themselves a level of confidence.
E.g. If you tell a man he is average, then he will do nothing to change himself. If you tell a man he will do great things then he will strive to achieve them.

So if I was a weakly typed thinking personality I may be able to view a persons post about achievement as a mindset that a stronger preference may have and apply it to myself.

But then you believe that this is not related to this personality system at all, don't you?

How about this... Say I was less sensing and didn't pay attention to the world around me, preferring instead to focus on my own inner world. Were I to associate with people who took in the world around them and applied what they saw to their own specific situation then surely over time I would begin to adapt and begin to see the world like them.

It's not about superiority and I agree that discarding another person because they don't type the same as you is just plain stupid. I came here in the beginning because I wanted to figure out where I belonged and to 'check' that I'm just not strange or screwy upstairs.

[Splittet]

I think this whole thing has to do with INTJ confidence. Most INTJs think of themselves as superior to most people, and if you ask me, it's part of the INTJ charm. That being said, I think most INTJs respect many of the other types, although I guess many especially will dislike sensors (not all S individuals though, but most), which really is a trend on these MBTI boards. My guess is the INTJ type is pretty prone to it, because most aren't afraid of viewing themselves as superior.

[Paul V]

I disagree with this. I believe that if one values certain traits over others, one should not be repressed for speaking up. Freedom of speech, remember?

And the same way you can't force someone to accept your ideal of INTJs being perfect beings, you can't force the opposite either. You simply have to accept that there are varied opinions among the members of this forum. If you can't accept it, there are two choices: A) The ignore list. B) The report button if they've just made an ad hominem attack.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you and what you're ranting about. I just disagree on the existence of this topic. You're basically forcing harmony down people's throats.

[Jennywocky]

...I just disagree on the existence of this topic. You're basically forcing harmony down people's throats.

Oh, there's a tagline: "INTJForums: Forcing harmony down people's throats, one throat at a time." :)

I'm happy INTJs have their own forums, and it's fun to come here and then compare to INTPc or INFPgc or other specific-type-focused homes.

Yes, I noticed the attitude and don't post here much because of it. It tends to come across as people just having their own pet ideas to promote and being seemingly dismissive of questions or other viewpoints [not openly dismissive, usually, but just ignoring comments that do not conform to their pet ideas].

But really, it's INTJ Land here, so y'all aren't required to be anything else. I figure it's just part of me accepting I am a guest and not the owner of the house.

[Paul V]

Oh, there's a tagline: "INTJForums: Forcing harmony down people's throats, one throat at a time." :)

I'm happy INTJs have their own forums, and it's fun to come here and then compare to INTPc or INFPgc or other specific-type-focused homes.

Yes, I noticed the attitude and don't post here much because of it. It tends to come across as people just having their own pet ideas to promote and being seemingly dismissive of questions or other viewpoints [not openly dismissive, usually, but just ignoring comments that do not conform to their pet ideas].

But really, it's INTJ Land here, so y'all aren't required to be anything else. I figure it's just part of me accepting I am a guest and not the owner of the house.

I disagree again. You shouldn't allow them to intimidate you. You should post here regardless of what others might think or say, and if they don't like what you have to say, well... there's the Ignore feature on the left.

[dayguard]

By hanging around the forum i realised that though there is an innate feeling of superiority over others inside me. I don't particularly like that feeling. With strengths there are weaknesses.

The fact that there are less of us in the population does not mean we are more special than the rest. It just mean that the intelligent designer up there knows there is a need for people who think like us for the world to operate more orderly.

There is a place for people like us in the community just as there are for the rest. Just that the world need less of us. The world will be a better place if we all learn to work with one another.

[Splittet]

The fact that there are less of us in the population does not mean we are more special than the rest. It just mean that the intelligent designer up there knows there is a need for people who think like us for the world to operate more orderly.

Well, this argument supposes there is an intelligent designer up there... Some of us don't believe in that stuff. To be special definitely has to do with rarity, so more rare, contribute to more special. But I don't know if 1 in 50-100 million really is that special anyway... In the big picture few of us are special, but at least we can be very special to the people closest to us, and I guess their opinion means most to us anyway, except for our own, of course. :P

There is a place for people like us in the community just as there are for the rest. Just that the world need less of us. The world will be a better place if we all learn to work with one another.

It is definitely Christmas!

[ScottH]

Thank you, Mech. Massiah, for voicing this. I've felt the same way--er, um, I mean "thought the same thing." LOL

Ironically, I think a strong affinity to ones type is a distinct expression of "F." Chatting and/or bragging about it, seeking buy-in from others is a strong expression of "E."

I also consider that there are a large number of young people on this board, for whom "groupology" is a common thing, and upon whom society seems to forever place labels "gay," "fat," "jock," "lazy," ... In that context, choosing to "grab hold" of a thing like one's MBTI doesn't seem so bad :-)

[Hdier]

I disagree with this. I believe that if one values certain traits over others, one should not be repressed for speaking up. Freedom of speech, remember?

And the same way you can't force someone to accept your ideal of INTJs being perfect beings, you can't force the opposite either. You simply have to accept that there are varied opinions among the members of this forum. If you can't accept it, there are two choices: A) The ignore list. B) The report button if they've just made an ad hominem attack.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you and what you're ranting about. I just disagree on the existence of this topic. You're basically forcing harmony down people's throats.

My problem with it isn't that some people think that INTJ's are perfection, simply that it is to universal.

[Paul V]

My problem with it isn't that some people think that INTJ's are perfection, simply that it is to universal.

Please note how you're basically trying to justify censorship and forced harmony by saying "everyone's doing it." It's still wrong. How would you feel if I went to an INFJ forum and started ranting about how everyone feels Feeling is superior to Thinking?

While it annoys me greatly as well, this is not the right way to deal with it. You just make people clamp up and get defensive.

[Drayakir]

*shrugs* I take pride in my arrogance. I perfectly understand the hierarchy of the world, know my place, know the place of others, and how I'm supposed to relate to them, based on their superiority/inferiority to it. Sure, it sounds bad, but on the other hand, it's true.

And I agree with that fact- what you stated is an opinion. I honestly doubt you'll be really able to reach out to anyone over an internet forum. Although your opinion does have its valid points, it's not for everyone.

[Hdier]

No, I am simply noting that people don't appear to be thinking this through, and looking at people saying "INTJ is the best", and agreeing with it mostly because they are INTJ's.

If people were universely saying that F is supreior to T, then I would join your rant, as I did MM's (BTW, do you know any good INFJ forums; I can't find any).

I do not believe that this is trying to deal with the problem, but allows people to relieve frustration if necessary, or simply voice their opinion. I believe it was you who brought up free speech.

[thegnat]

I agree with your post completely M^2.

I think that most people come here and go "Oh my god! People actually think the same as I do!" And then they realize that they're somewhat "normal" in a group. Because this is an internet forum full of INTJs, I think most try and prove their INTJness - to fit into this group that is like-minded. It's a place they can sort of "be proud" of their INTJness and not looked at oddly. Someone else probably feels the same way as they do. ZOMG I SAID FEEL! We're social animals whether we want to admit it or not. To be not looked at weirdly for a characteristic like being "heartless" or not F is an unusual circumstance.

Plus, the ability to outright say "I'm awesome" with it being chalked up to a characteristic of an INTJ (as a good thing) and not arrogance has got to feel good. "So and so's arrogant, that's their INTJness coming through. Yep, welcome to the club." I'd say that's the same for really any characteristic of an INTJ not normally looked at as good. I'm not saying that the characteristics are bad, but just that they're part of the person and should be recognized, but not idealized. No personality characteristic - nor MBTI type - is inherently bad or greater compared to another. All should be respected for their different strengths. But as I said, humans are social and this is an INTJ forum. It's a group which INTJs can fit in.

I believe the above is at least partly an explanation for the behavior that you mentioned M^2 (is it OK if I call you that?). I'm not really *defending* it, but I'm not really criticizing it, either..just analyzing...as an INTJ would :P

And then of course there are the people who are tongue in cheek about things. *coughs*

[Paul V]

No, I am simply noting that people don't appear to be thinking this through, and looking at people saying "INTJ is the best", and agreeing with it mostly because they are INTJ's.

If people were universely saying that F is supreior to T, then I would join your rant, as I did MM's (BTW, do you know any good INFJ forums; I can't find any).

I do not believe that this is trying to deal with the problem, but allows people to relieve frustration if necessary, or simply voice their opinion. I believe it was you who brought up free speech.

A) That's where you're wrong. Ranting doesn't solve anything. As I've said, it only makes people clamp up and get defensive.

B) I haven't found any INFJ forums (And I want to see one too) yet.

C) Venting about an issue is exactly like smashing an object in a moment of rage: It feels good at first, but then you have to deal with the consequences (in this case, the broken object).

D) Mechanical Messiah: What do you propose we do about it? Where do you think lies the root of the problem? Should we ask Jezebel to add those kinds of things to the list of warnable offenses, as they disrupt the community? I believe it's better to take action against a problem than to simply speak about it.

[Hdier]

A) I never claimed that ranting solves the problem.

C) I would disagree here. I recently slammed my controller to the ground (and partially broke it; able to fix it though), and I definitely saw the concequences there. However, as of right now, when a warning is given so that anyone who would be offended can not see it, and when we're not saying anything like 'kill all the bastards who think INTJ's are best' (I'm not calling anyone a bastard here; I am giving an example of deconstructive behaviour), then venting can help, similar to screaming into a pillow.

D) I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would like to respond to it; I, for one, am not complaining that people have this opinion. I am complaining that people do not seem to have solid, logical reasons behind why they think it is better. A lot of people seem to merely say 'well, E's are to social, S's can't see anything past the obvious, F's are fluffy headed emotional freaks who can't take any critisism, and P's can't finish what they start', and have nothing beyond that. Those are fine as starting points, but when things end there, there's a problem.

[Paul V]

A) I never claimed that ranting solves the problem.

C) I would disagree here. I recently slammed my controller to the ground (and partially broke it; able to fix it though), and I definitely saw the concequences there. However, as of right now, when a warning is given so that anyone who would be offended can not see it, and when we're not saying anything like 'kill all the bastards who think INTJ's are best' (I'm not calling anyone a bastard here; I am giving an example of deconstructive behaviour), then venting can help, similar to screaming into a pillow.

D) I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would like to respond to it; I, for one, am not complaining that people have this opinion. I am complaining that people do not seem to have solid, logical reasons behind why they think it is better. A lot of people seem to merely say 'well, E's are to social, S's can't see anything past the obvious, F's are fluffy headed emotional freaks who can't take any critisism, and P's can't finish what they start', and have nothing beyond that. Those are fine as starting points, but when things end there, there's a problem.

A) Then why rant? Doing something that consumes time and energy and doesn't solve the problem is a waste of time and energy.

C) Yelling at a child because he misbehaved (or yelling at a grown-up because he has done something wrong) creates more problems instead of solving them. Even if you're right, it still doesn't justify the yelling. You and Mechanical Messiah are right, I'm not saying that you aren't, it's just that you've picked the wrong way to convey your message to the community. Perhaps a light-hearted debate topic would've yielded much better results.

D) Well, given the fact that you're paraphrasing me (what I've said in one of your threads), I can tell you that I think those traits are better to me. I like them, just as I like strawberry and dislike chocolate. It's a personal preference and you shouldn't take offense in it. You are exactly like me, you are not better or worse, I think I'm better than I used to be because I've changed (or, conversely, I think I would be worse off if I had been of another type). You should read carefully and try to understand what the other person is saying before going on a rant. I'm not saying ESFPs are worse, I'm saying I don't like their traits and I'm glad I'm not like them. Imagine how it would be if you hated pink. It wasn't on purpose, you were born that way. Now imagine you were visiting a city where all its inhabitants wear pink on a daily basis. Of course you wouldn't like the way they dress! But you wouldn't think any less of them, you would just respect the differences and be glad you don't wear pink.

[Hdier]

A) Are you being serious? Look at my 'C'. I assume you read it, as you responded to it.

B) I wasn't trying to yell at anyone; it was clearly stated in the title that it was a rant about people thinking that INTJ's are an ideal, so anyone who didn't want to hear it didn't have to. Plus, I am not yelling, simply complaining about something that tends to get under my skin without being extrememly bad.

C) I'm sorry if I paraphrased you; I was specifically trying to not paraphrase anyone, simply take the extreme ends of the negative side of letters and magnify them, to make my point. :embarassed: I did not mean this personally.

However, the problem with your strawberry v. chocolate analogy is that that is purely subjective; their is no inherent benifit to eating strawberries rather than chocolate (I am talking about purely the flavor here; obviously you could agrue things such as 'strawberries are healthier than chocolate', but my argument would still work with, say, bannanas rather than chocolate), while their are specific (and, in some cases, obvious) advantages and disadvantages that go along with each letter.

I guess my problem is with the people who don't think it through, not their preferences.

[stasis]

"are you sure you're an INTJ?"
"you sound more like an NF/idealist"
"I want to be the best INTJ I can be"
"I am the king of logic: Spock incarnate!" (I'm having a little fun with this one. You get the idea.)
Yeah, I think the above is silly too. I shall join you in the eye-rolling. And besides, anyone familiar with the MBTI descriptions should be aware that INTP logic is the most precise. Right? RIGHT?!

[Paul V]

A) Are you being serious? Look at my 'C'. I assume you read it, as you responded to it.

B) I wasn't trying to yell at anyone; it was clearly stated in the title that it was a rant about people thinking that INTJ's are an ideal, so anyone who didn't want to hear it didn't have to. Plus, I am not yelling, simply complaining about something that tends to get under my skin without being extrememly bad.

C) I'm sorry if I paraphrased you; I was specifically trying to not paraphrase anyone, simply take the extreme ends of the negative side of letters and magnify them, to make my point. :embarassed: I did not mean this personally.

However, the problem with your strawberry v. chocolate analogy is that that is purely subjective; their is no inherent benifit to eating strawberries rather than chocolate (I am talking about purely the flavor here; obviously you could agrue things such as 'strawberries are healthier than chocolate', but my argument would still work with, say, bannanas rather than chocolate), while their are specific (and, in some cases, obvious) advantages and disadvantages that go along with each letter.

I guess my problem is with the people who don't think it through, not their preferences.

A) I still find that to be illogical. Immediate satisfaction without considering the damage =/= most logical course of action.

B) Ranting = Violently expressing negative thoughts/feelings towards someone about a subject = Yelling in real life.

C) That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no difference between strawberry and bananas, they're both subjective preference. That's the entire point of my speech. I like being a T because I wouldn't think I was in control if I were dominated by feelings. I like being an I because I don't like people. I like being a N because I find basical sensitive stimulation to be boring. I like being a J because I like being self-confident and a person of closure and decision. It's all about personal preference.

[logos]

Yes, I noticed the attitude and don't post here much because of it. It tends to come across as people just having their own pet ideas to promote and being seemingly dismissive of questions or other viewpoints [not openly dismissive, usually, but just ignoring comments that do not conform to their pet ideas].

But really, it's INTJ Land here, so y'all aren't required to be anything else. I figure it's just part of me accepting I am a guest and not the owner of the house.

I identify with this perspective.

I disagree again. You shouldn't allow them to intimidate you. You should post here regardless of what others might think or say, and if they don't like what you have to say, well... there's the Ignore feature on the left.


I cannot speak for Jenny, but sharing her perspective and speaking for myself I am not intimidated in the least. It comes down to whether or not the result is worth the effort required to 'correct' clearly flawed ideas. I come to the same conclusion when applying this measure to participating in many discussions, most notably religion/philosophy discussions. Though these are topics (though not necessarily discussions) that intensely interest me, I choose not to participate as the result is not worth the effort.

People will have their perceptions and I accept that. It is not my job to make anyone else 'better according to logos'. If I have an observation or people are having a discussion and I feel my input may be well received or helpful in some way, I offer it up. I enjoy expanding upon thought but not pushing opinion/perspective where it is not wanted. Overall, membership here so far seems worthy of participation, so I remain even though I don't make the effort to delineate my ideas on every topic.

[Mechanical Messiah]

I'm happy to see that I've stirred up some discussion. We INTJ's may not be the most verbose personality type... but I'm a big fan of frank conversation. And in my experience, if a discussion among relative strangers DOESN'T ruffle some feathers... then very little information is being exchanged and/or processed.

I feel that a few folks have misunderstood my intent with this rant. I'll make a few points, then grace ya'll with individual replies:

1. I'm an arrogant sonofabitch... and I've never claimed otherwise. In fact, I personally know only one person whose ego is more massive than my own- and he's also an INTJ (he's kinda like me... but with a foreign accent, a multi-million dollar trust fund, and looks like a young version of Sting). Folks... I'm quantifiably (or AT LEAST demonstrably... depending on the quality we're discussing) superior to most people in a number ways. Nothing against other people... I'm just lucky enough to be highly intelligent, introspective, healthy/physically strong in spite of my odd Sasquatch-like posture, and one of the better-looking specimens to emerge unbidden from a dying coal-mining town in Southern Appalachia.

So I don't hold it against those of ya'll who I perceive as arrogant- perhaps said arrogance is as justified as my own? No... arrogance is not what this rant is about.

Nor is this about tolerance.

2. This rant is about dumbassedness. IMO, there are lots of valuable insights here for the taking, discussing random topics among folks of your own strange personality profile. But when you presume that everyone who tests intj SHOULD be like you... or when you imply that certain arguments are not worthy of your own special four-letter profile, then you're doing yourself (and more importantly... Me!) a disservice. For the sake of discussion, I humbly request that ya'll intj-purists humor those who dare to deviate from your own Spock-like ideal... stand back and observe what an INTJ can be.



3. People are bound to be intimidated by a formidable man such as myself- it's unavoidable. But to allay the concerns of folks who are less secure than My Magnanimous Self... I've no intention to 'ram anything down anybody's throat'. I'm nobody. I'm just another face in the crowd- a statistical outlier with no more influence on you than the force of my unsolicited opinions (which YOU are voluntarily reading). Don't like 'em? Feel free to post your own and expose me for the fool that I am. I wouldn't presume to FORCE my opinions on anyone. You're QUITE free to your own opinion- however silly it may be... but I'll state my own here as I damn well please unless/until Jezebel gives me the boot. You're welcome and invited to do the same.

Unless of course you consider an eye-roll from an irrelevant hillbilly with crooked teeth and a lazy eye to be 'force'... in which case you have serious self-esteem issues.

I disagree with this. I believe that if one values certain traits over others, one should not be repressed for speaking up. Freedom of speech, remember?

And the same way you can't force someone to accept your ideal of INTJs being perfect beings, you can't force the opposite either. You simply have to accept that there are varied opinions among the members of this forum. If you can't accept it, there are two choices: A) The ignore list. B) The report button if they've just made an ad hominem attack.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you and what you're ranting about. I just disagree on the existence of this topic. You're basically forcing harmony down people's throats.

This has already been addressed, but I'd like to reiterate that I'm not "oppressing" anyone. Nor am I infringing on your right to "free speech" (though being a private forum, said 'right' is at the whim of whomever runs the place). Now if, for instance, I were a moderator who flashed the badge when faced with an uncomfortable situation... then you might have a legitimate gripe. But I'm nobody. So I honestly don't understand what you're complaining about.

M^2 (is it OK if I call you that?).

You can call me whatever you want :) Just don't tell my infj wife... she'll be jealous.





Mechanical Messiah added to this post, 30 minutes and 5 seconds later...


D) Mechanical Messiah: What do you propose we do about it? Where do you think lies the root of the problem? Should we ask Jezebel to add those kinds of things to the list of warnable offenses, as they disrupt the community? I believe it's better to take action against a problem than to simply speak about it.

You think this is a problem that could/should be addressed via rules and authority? Are you sure you're not an ISTJ??

;D ;D

Heh. Just kiddin'.

Seriously, though... no, I'm not suggesting that this should be a wrnable offense or anything of the sort. Matter of fact, I rarely see any reason to moderate ANY forum except for obvious things like copyright violations, unauthorized identity posting, spam, etc... but that's just personal preference. I enjoy free and open discussion... some don't.

No, this very rant IS my solution. I mean to make certain people aware that I think some of your comments have been baseless, ignorant, insecure/defensive, and detrimental to productive conversation. That's all.

Awareness is the goal of my rant, and is the ONLY proposed solution to my pet peeve. It might be effective to a point... likely won't. But I reckoned it was worth a try.

[Paul V]

Oh, my. You've definetely shut me up. No sarcasm here, I recognise your reasoning and I must admit I can't find any flaw in it. I might say the rant was too blunt, but I'd be a hypocrit.

Oh, and btw, I see what you did there, with the excessive arrogance. Good way to prove your point. :)

[logos]

I'm happy to see that I've stirred up some discussion. ....................It might be effective to a point... likely won't. But I reckoned it was worth a try.

To clarify my last post in case it was in question, I wholeheartedly agreed with your original post as well as this one. I was just expressing that the only reason I never made a similar post myself was that I felt as you do: that it would likely be fruitless. I didn't think it would be worth the effort.

[Dreamer]

I find that writing whole pages about how superior a person is based solely on their MBTI profile to be very pointless.

As though belonging to this certain group made you intelligent.

Facta non verba.
:rolleyes:

[Hdier]

A) I still find that to be illogical. Immediate satisfaction without considering the damage =/= most logical course of action.

Let us assume, for the moment, that I agree with you and that it is irrational and only provides immediate satifaction. It still treats the symptoms, if not the actuall source, which I do not have a solution to.

B) Ranting = Violently expressing negative thoughts/feelings towards someone about a subject = Yelling in real life.

What was violent about my posts? I was simply stating that I did not like something in a post.

C) That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no difference between strawberry and bananas, they're both subjective preference. That's the entire point of my speech. I like being a T because I wouldn't think I was in control if I were dominated by feelings. I like being an I because I don't like people. I like being a N because I find basical sensitive stimulation to be boring. I like being a J because I like being self-confident and a person of closure and decision. It's all about personal preference.

OK, I think that you may have missed my point.

P=Better at making sure to have enough information before making a decision.

J=Better at making snap decisions in an emergency.

Obviously, these are not the only endearing qualities that each letter puts forth, but it is enough. It is not (to my knowledge) possible to translate this to 'strawberries and bannanas', because for one person strawberry flavor could be totally positive while bannana flavor could be totally negative, and vice verca for another person. Therefore, in flavor preferences there can be no objectivity in the choice, while there can in letter preferences.

[rwyatt365]

MM, thanks for the original posting, and thanks for the later clarification. It’s a good thing to have someone grab you by the scruff of the neck and point your head in the direction of reality sometimes.

Having said that, I’m in total agreement with you – that often times INTJs view the INTJ profile to be a statement of an ideal rather than a description of a particular way of seeing the world and thinking. That doesn’t mean that INTJ is better than any other mindset – some things we do better, some worse. It all balances out in the end.

[Danisty]

MM, thanks for the original posting, and thanks for the later clarification. It’s a good thing to have someone grab you by the scruff of the neck and point your head in the direction of reality sometimes.

Having said that, I’m in total agreement with you – that often times INTJs view the INTJ profile to be a statement of an ideal rather than a description of a particular way of seeing the world and thinking. That doesn’t mean that INTJ is better than any other mindset – some things we do better, some worse. It all balances out in the end.I also agree. Are INTJs are more prone to look at their type and see it as a some kind of goal to achieve?

[INTJoe]

Let the record show that I was the one who said the "You sound like an NF/Idealist" line.

And I don't understand what was wrong with it, in context.

Obviously NF to me are going to appear too idealistic, and irrational, and myself, being NT, will likely appear too cold, and perhaps pessimistic.

Nothing wrong with it.

I thought that was why we all signed up to post on a forum called INTJ Forum. How strange that on a forum about personality types...some of us might actually point out the differences in personality types..........MAN THAT IS WEIRD!!!

BUT, I will say that I do not think of being INTJ as some sort of badge. It's what I am. It's like hearing a tall person brag about being tall. It just doesn't make sense to brag about a personality preference. In that sense, you are correct, but I think your basis for your argument was pretty silly.

Being INTJ is nothing to strive for. It's a blessing from God. <---- OK that comment might spark further debate. lol. I'm kidding.

[Firelie]

I also agree. Are INTJs are more prone to look at their type and see it as a some kind of goal to achieve?

Well I don't know about that. Maybe the more elitist ones do. I tend to look at it and see all the stuff there is that I don't like about it and that I'd like to change, so it sorta gets added in with the list of projects.

[Danisty]

Well I don't know about that. Maybe the more elitist ones do. I tend to look at it and see all the stuff there is that I don't like about it and that I'd like to change, so it sorta gets added in with the list of projects.I don't see it as any kind of goal either. In fact, I mostly see that my personality type doesn't really fit in under most circumstances. I find it frustrating. On the other hand, I do tend to really admire others of my type and see it as not just the type I am, but as the best type for me. If I wasn't an INTJ, I wonder if I would wish I was?

[INTJoe]

If I wasn't an INTJ, I wonder if I would wish I was?

I don't think anybody who wasn't INTJ would wish it upon themselves.

For many reasons, but mainly because they wouldn't "understand" the type enough to see it as a virtue.

Perhaps some INTP's wish they were INTJ, but even that is just a shot in the dark. But of all the types, I would guess INTP would be the least averse to switching to INTJ.

[quentin]

Why would anybody wish to be anybody but yourself?

[INTJoe]

Why would anybody wish to be anybody but yourself?


I don't know but millions of people would love to be someone else.

[HackerX]

Perhaps some INTP's wish they were INTJ, but even that is just a shot in the dark. But of all the types, I would guess INTP would be the least averse to switching to INTJ.

If I ever felt like this, I'd take a rope and hang myself on the spot :)

Please don't ever make this assumption again.

[INTJoe]

If I ever felt like this, I'd take a rope and hang myself on the spot :)

Please don't ever make this assumption again.

The assumption that, of the 15 other types, the INTP would be least averse to having to switch to INTJ?

Is that really that far off-base?

What type do you think would be lease averse to the switch to INTJ? Certainly not ENTJ. And it would almost have to be a rational.

So of those, you have:
ENTJ
INTP
ENTP

And I would assume the P would switch to a J more readily than an E to an I.

[HackerX]

The assumption that, of the 15 other types, the INTP would be least averse to having to switch to INTJ?

Is that really that far off-base?


Yes.


And I would assume the P would switch to a J more readily than an E to an I.

No. E & I are just "external" attributes. P & J is a fundamental change in the way a person thinks. It would be like an S switching to a N. Not going to happen.

[INTJoe]

So you feel that ENTJ would be least-averse to having to switch to INTJ?

Which type would come next, in your opinion?

[Hdier]

I was under the impression that it was impossible (or, at least, so unlikely that it is negligable) for someone to change their types. Or are we just speaking hypothetically here?

[Bossy Mom]

I have been charged with being an ISTJ by a few people on this forum in an attempt to intimidate me. Many people really believe they are superior in intelligence to others and can pigeonhole them by only the illumination of a few paragraphs.

[Blendy]

I can't stand it when people flaunt their MB type, as if to justify their personal faults. Personally, I have never seen INTJ as an ideal. In fact, the vast majority of INTJ's I've met in my life I've found to be pretty boring and humorless people. I count myself in on this critique, and have actively sought to develop "non INTJ" qualities in myself (ie Feeling, sociability), and consider myself to be a much more interesting person, not to mention happier, as a result. Other people have noted this as well. Yes, I am still INTJ, but prefer not to limit myself and my personal growth based on this type description.

[HackerX]

So you feel that ENTJ would be least-averse to having to switch to INTJ?

Which type would come next, in your opinion?

No, I feel that EVERY type would be averse to having to switch.
Who the hell would actually want to switch to be an INTJ???? That's the whole point of this thread is it not? There is no list, or order of preference when it comes to types that could cope with this. People even within personality groups tend to still be pretty damn different. Forcing one type to be another is pretty traumatic.


I was under the impression that it was impossible (or, at least, so unlikely that it is negligable) for someone to change their types. Or are we just speaking hypothetically here?

Not impossible as such. Most switches are people that sit on the border line of two letters. As people age, they tend to balance out a bit more, learn about through experience, and that can cause their perceptions to change. But it's generally only a minor shift. It may not even been a switch at all, just the person recognising more of the opposite within themselves and putting too much weight to it (That all excludes of course psychological trauma, which can have a pretty profound effect on personality)


I have been charged with being an ISTJ by a few people on this forum in an attempt to intimidate me. Many people really believe they are superior in intelligence to others and can pigeonhole them by only the illumination of a few paragraphs.

Unfortunately common on forums like this. The other one they would use would be to call you an F, like being an F is so horrible :| I suppose a lot of it is fear of the unknown. Find my rant about others attempting to type people about external attributes (i.e. forum posts). It's around here somewhere. I doubt you're worried much though.

[INTJoe]

No, I feel that EVERY type would be averse to having to switch.
Who the hell would actually want to switch to be an INTJ???? That's the whole point of this thread is it not? There is no list, or order of preference when it comes to types that could cope with this.

OK, so let me get this straight...if some greater power forced you to have to switch to another type, you're telling me you wouldn't be able to prioritize the order, given a week or so to really think everything over?

I could already tell you there are types I'd be less-averse to switching to than others.

Maybe I'll order them later, but for now I'd probably say I'd never want to switch to an introverted-feeler. That isn't to say I think Introverted-Feelers are inferior to myself, but it means knowing how I think as a T, I don't think I'd be able to make the switch.

If I was born IxFx...I'm fairly confident that I'd be quite happy in my own skin.

I find it hard to believe that, if hypothtically forced to switch, you would not be able to confidently prioritize the 15 other types before making the switch.

[Danisty]

I'm confused why we're even talking about force and I think some people are taking some comments way too seriously.

[Mechanical Messiah]

I think it's because INTJoe is actually an INTP.



;D

[xhaan]

First of all, I'd like to say that I've enjoyed these forums over the past couple weeks. I think ya'll are an intelligent bunch of folks, and I enjoy the fact that ya'll have the wit and attention span to make a meaningful, thought-out arguement on most any subject. I also like the tacit understanding of the underlying wierdness that defines folks who test as INTJ.

But I've repeatedly seen certain comments around here that drive me nuts. I have yet to address these as staying on-topic seems more important than fostering discussion to the powers that be around here. Well... in belated honor of Festivus, I'm airing my grievence:

The INTJ personality profile is NOT AN IDEAL. It's nothing to strive for. It's a simplified description of certain preferences & strengths... not a medal of honor. Sure, I'm somewhat introverted, strongly intuitive, strongly T (though that F side has been rearing its ugly head more in the past few years), and moderately J. I don't particularly want to be MORE of any of these... or less; that's cause these are largely preferences. Nor do I dismiss the ideas of folks with different preferences than my own. Life is not as logical as some would pretend that it is, and I've learned the value of people who approach a problem or question differently that I might.

Don't get me wrong- this is not a direct accusation of any particular individual. These are my perceptions, based on the following list of what I consider trite and ill-concieved comments:

(all paraphrased- I'm too lazy to quote-mine)

"are you sure you're an INTJ?"
"you sound more like an NF/idealist"
"I want to be the best INTJ I can be"
"I am the king of logic: Spock incarnate!" (I'm having a little fun with this one. You get the idea.)

So next time you imply your superiority based on a meyers/briggs profile... just know that a half-naked hillbilly somewhere is rolling his eyes at you.

/rant.

I tend to get this impression at times also, however, perceptions are just that. None of us are mind readers (that I know of), and what -appears- to go on with someone, may not actually be.

[INTJoe]

I think it's because INTJoe is actually an INTP.


My J IS my weakest quantity, weighing in at a whopping 11... :)

[arnsworth1026]

So next time you imply your superiority based on a meyers/briggs profile... just know that a half-naked hillbilly somewhere is rolling his eyes at you.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

ps. can you send me some moonshine?



i may have known a little about mbti (what the hell are Ni, Fe, anyway... what about an FU for you?)


:)


I can't stand it when people flaunt their MB type, as if to justify their personal faults. Personally, I have never seen INTJ as an ideal. In fact, the vast majority of INTJ's I've met in my life I've found to be pretty boring and humorless people. I count myself in on this critique, and have actively sought to develop "non INTJ" qualities in myself (ie Feeling, sociability), and consider myself to be a much more interesting person, not to mention happier, as a result. Other people have noted this as well. Yes, I am still INTJ, but prefer not to limit myself and my personal growth based on this type description.

well said

[elsdfr]

I to am surprised that some people think its an ideal or something to be proud of. I remember finding out, rejecting it... coming back and thinking maybe it is correct and then spending the next year or two developing everything that seemed unknown to me and wow I am so much better off with friends, family... everything that is real and important.

I think a lot of this might have to do with the INTJs' age though.

[DeadSpace]

intj was not something i aspired to be, knew nothing about meyer/briggs, mbti personality types up until 01/24/2008, same day i ran across the test, took it, read the profile, and joined this forum. It matched me. 40+ years of being the way i am before i took the test, i'll still be this way if something comes along and disproves the entire personality profiling of mbti. It's another label in a long list...but at least this one fits. :)
As for it being an ideal...there are worse ones out there people could model themselves after. INTJ~~>thought before action, being able to think rationally...not bad qualities.

[Antares]

Title: INTJ is not ideal.

I don't think it is either. Ok. Maybe I did when I first found out I was INTJ, but I've been much more open since then, which was a few weeks ago 0___o

My J IS my weakest quantity, weighing in at a whopping 11... :)

So is mine. Mine's 1, or 44. Depends on the test.

I used to pretend to be like you guys in public. Closed to the world, analytical, and high-performance.

I don't know why, but seemingly some people do want to be like us. Haha. Maybe I'm a wannabe myself? I cannot tell, because I answered the test questions truthfully. There's no net gain in being any one personality type, strictly speaking and I believe that all types are equal. Sure, some ESFP's are more of a gossip than other ESFP's, but on many forums, I had the impression that some people think xxxx is an insufferable type just because he/she had met someone of that type and disliked him/her intensely.

I have been charged with being an ISTJ by a few people on this forum in an attempt to intimidate me. Many people really believe they are superior in intelligence to others and can pigeonhole them by only the illumination of a few paragraphs.

I dunno... What's wrong with being ISTJ?

[SeaCzar]

intj was not something i aspired to be, knew nothing about meyer/briggs, mbti personality types up until 01/24/2008, same day i ran across the test, took it, read the profile, and joined this forum. It matched me. 40+ years of being the way i am before i took the test, i'll still be this way if something comes along and disproves the entire personality profiling of mbti. It's another label in a long list...but at least this one fits. :)
As for it being an ideal...there are worse ones out there people could model themselves after. INTJ~~>thought before action, being able to think rationally...not bad qualities.


I remember the day I took the MBTI exam. Barely into the test I thought "this is such <hooey>." However, the results were, for me, jaw-dropping. It told me more about me than I knew myself (read: Cared to admit).

Reading between the lines of the results, to me it said: "You are an aloof, arrogant and pedant <fornicating> know-it-all who does not play well with others". Imagine my shock when I realised it was true!!

[Sylvanus]

I agree that INTJ is not an ideal. I like being an INTJ, yet I know we have many weaknesses as well as strengths. It has been said that no type is better than another, but some types are better at some things than others. An F can tell me all day long that it is important to feel. I ask "Important to who?". Trying to have a debate with an F, I pull out charts and statistics, they pull out guilt, passion and rhetoric. To me, quantifiable truths are important, better than feeling good about myself. Other types have their place in society, but I only ever feel comfortable with others who are like me. Of course I know that occasionally I have to have a good time, and neither my I nor T will provide that, so I have to go out and have fun sometimes. E's, S's and F's are better at it than us and sometimes their entertainment is suitable.

[futureperfect5]

...

The INTJ personality profile is NOT AN IDEAL. It's nothing to strive for. It's a simplified description of certain preferences & strengths... not a medal of honor. ...

Don't get me wrong- this is not a direct accusation of any particular individual. These are my perceptions, based on the following list of what I consider trite and ill-conceived comments:

(all paraphrased- I'm too lazy to quote-mine)

"are you sure you're an INTJ?"
"you sound more like an NF/idealist"
"I want to be the best INTJ I can be"
"I am the king of logic: Spock incarnate!" (I'm having a little fun with this one. You get the idea.)

So next time you imply your superiority based on a meyers/briggs profile... just know that a half-naked hillbilly somewhere is rolling his eyes at you.

/rant.

Well hey, pardner ...
I'm in a yippy-kay-yay mood tonight so :idea: yeah, maybe whenever you want to express this disdain over perceived idealizing you should skedaddle on back to your hill-billy posse. :stunned: All the best!

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Being able to see and openly acknowledge your own qualities and flaws is probably more a funtion of maturity than personality type. Those individuals who strive to inflate themselves based on any criteria (like type) may be still in the process of maturing.

[Richard0612]

I agree that INTJ is not an ideal - nor is any other MBTI type for that matter - but I would'nt change my type even if I could. I'm not saying that it's better generally, just better for me, and it's what I have become accustomed to and fitted my life around. However, the world needs all of the types to function [and yes, that does include the ENFPs that some of us find annoying due to a type conflict!], and each one has it's strengths and weaknesses as does every person alive.

Just my 2p worth!

[Nihilum]

INTJs are very, very simple people.

No. Just because you acted like an INTJ doesn't mean you understand what it's like being one. If you were really an ENFP, you had those preferences but supressed them. INTJs, in fact, everyone, is complex.

[schmidt]

I agree with you, I usually ignore threads where someone stated any of the quotes you had. I find strange that some for some reason look down on "other" traits, stop this MBTIism :(

[Squirelznflight]

I went through an enormous superiority complex kind of thing after testing INTJ. I might have remained close-minded forever if I hadn't remembered my favorite song from my childhood from The Land Before Time, and read a couple books that taught me a lesson.
"It Takes All Sorts" is below, put into a spoiler thingy because I refuse to waste so much space on the web page. Be warned: it is long.

It takes all sorts
to make a world
Short and tall shorts
large and small sorts
To fill this pretty planet
with love and laughter
To make it great to live in
tomorrow and the day after

It takes all types
without a doubt
Dumb and wise types
every size types
To do all the things
that need to be done

To make our live fun
Find our place in the sun

And the brightest way
the rightest way
According to reports is simply to
take all sorts

It takes all sorts
to make our day
Smart and slow sorts
High and low sorts
To make the world we live in
a place worth being
to try and make our future
a future really worth seeing

We need all types to make our way
Tried and true types
Me and you types
To create a world
that's truly worthwhile
That knows how to smile
how to do things in style

So the surest
and securest way
which everyone supports is simply to
Take all sorts

*sniffle* I love those dinosaurs.