Relationship: Ladies, what would you do?

[Acextreme]

Ok, is it true that if a guy pursue a girl too strongly and too fast, the girl will get frightened and pull back (i.e. show disinterest or blow hot and cold)? If assuming that to be the case, what should the guy do, assuming that initially there is interest from the girl as well? Is there anything that can remedy the situation and make her feel comfortable and attracted once again?

[Seriously]

I don't like guys who come on to strong but that might be a personal thing. I hate feeling pressured or like someone is trying to force things. I went out with a guy this weekend who was to pushy and therefore there won't be another date. Dunno for me once you turn me off you it's pretty much over.

I'm all about going with the flow and just letting things happen if they are going to. And for the love of God don't ask me if you can kiss me. If the moment is there it will happen but asking to kiss me is just lame, IMO anyway.

Hehe sorry I started going off on a tangent, didn't I?

[Latro]

You're gonna get a bit of a biased view here, and one that might not really coincide with the girl you're dealing with in real life...

[Harmony]

The only time I have been turned away from a guy that pursued me too strongly is if I wasn't all that interested in the first place. If I really like the guy then it doesn't bother me. I may mention that I like him and it's cool to back off a bit so that he doesn't get on my nerves.

Best bet is to back off and give her some space. Be friendly, but don't annoy her about hanging out constantly. I have a guy that is bugging me to hang out every weekend and ir has the exact opposite effect, it makes me want to hang out less and less.

[Stratego]

It depends on how you've presented yourself in this situation. If you've behaved in any way that seems desperate (like getting with her is your one and only goal) that's a huge turnoff right there--and if it seems like all your energy has been spent in wooing her (like you don't have other obligations or responsibilities that take up your time)--translated as "you don't have a life," that also a big, big turnoff.

Speaking as a woman (but not for all women, of course) I think that small, personal gestures, that show you're paying attention to what she likes, what she thinks about, what's important to her, is better than any extravagant gesture. And honesty (to a degree) is also the best way to go. Tell her you like her and that you're interested in her, don't make her guess.

I think women may blow hot and cold in these situations because it's flattering to be pursued, and at the same time it can be creepy if the guy is too intense. She's trying to figure out if he's a passionate guy or a serial killer wannabe and that also accounts for some of it, and she might also be trying to analyze her own feelings, figure out whether she likes you or not.

I think playing it cool, making small, straightforward gestures (save the big ones for later) and giving her some space to think will work in the long run.

[Feral]

If someone is coming on too strong, then I generally figure they're going to be too clingy.

If I'm interested, I'll make it known, though probably subtly. No amount of pursuing is going to make me want someone who I don't initially want.

[ElstonGunn]

One person's "too strong" is another person's "enthusiasm." Be more specific.

[Acextreme]

Ok, I guess I have to provide some additional details. Personally, I don't really think asking a girl out on a date was really coming on strong. But let me start from the how it all began and so there will be the info needed to determine if I was really coming that strongly or clingy; I certainly don't think I am...

Well, we talked on 3 occasions spreaded out over 2 weeks while on our way back home about 8 weeks ago. But I was rather aloof and short with my answers; note that she is the one talking most of the time during all our trips back home while I simply reciprocate and listen actively. Then on week 3, we didn't have classes and hence we did not see each other. All these while, I have not asked for her number as I wasn't at all interested. Then on week 4 where we have a whole stretch of lectures together, I realized that I was noticing her but we only talked once on Thu while on our way home that week; the other occasions, I had something to do and so did not take the same route as her. Anyway, that Sunday of week 5, which was only a few days after my last weekday class on Thu, while on our way home, I hinted to her in quite obvious terms like probing subtling about her relationship status. She missed the first one but on a second try, she explicitly stated she does not have a boyfriend and her body language and conversational dynamics seems more jovial and lively. Just before she got off the train, I made an indirect move to get her number by asking whether she got facebook, to which she beats me to it by offering me her mobile number.

Fast forward 2 days, which is Tue of week 5, while on our way back again, we were talking (and she was the one talking over 80%) and I should also mention that the dynamics is great and we were enjoying ourselves with me teasing her jokingly on plenty of occasions and she seems to like that. Then I steered the conversation to movies and suggested that we should watch Knowing since the storyline seems good. Well, she told me she's not sure whether she's free and I said I would call her the next day then. And I did. We talked happily with a healthy dose of joking around for about 2hrs 40mins before we ended the conversation as it was getting late. We then met out the next day for the movie but since we agreed to meet earlier, we went shopping and conversation was great, again with lots of joking and teasing around. In fact, this good vibe between us can be felt by strangers; I caught a older lady trying not to giggle as she witness our small little humorous debate, teases, and jokes. But she left after the movie though I had asked the previous day over the phone if she was rushing off anywhere after the movie, to which she replied no. And I thought the dating norm was that people usually don't make any appointments to go off after the event. But when I asked her again while we were shopping before the movie, she told me she would be meeting a friend later. I was like, what, I thought I just asked last night; apparently she fixed a date with her friend after we end our phone conversation and before we met.

Anyway, fast forward to Tue of week 6, we were on our way back as usual and the dynamics of the conversation hasn't changed at all, and before she got off, I asked her whether she is free over the weekends and suggested a dinner to chill out. She said not sure and I again offered to call her the next day. Everything was fine when I called, then her mobile went flat after close to 2 hours, to which she sms me about 15 minutes later to tell me so. I replied I could guess so as well but since I had not asked her about the dinner date proposal, I smsed it along with the reply. And she did not answer me at all; and I of course just left it as that as I don't want to appear I am affected by it. Then we had class again that Fri of week 6, and on our way home, we talked and the dynamics did not change and just before she got off, I asked if she's free tomorrow and she said she got something on, got driving lessons and meeting a friend later for dinner. So no problems. Another thing to note was that I told her something private about myself that only my 3 best friends knows about; she asked about it the night her mobile went flat but I wasn't ready to tell her then and so I kind of avoided it. But I decided I would tell her and so I let her know that only my 3 best friends know this thing about me and she sweared she would not tell anyone; she has a slight disappointment when I mentioned that I am a rather private person and that only my best friends know about this but she almost immediate sweared she won't tell anyone; it isn't something bad about me that I kept private, just that I don't like to go around telling people about my drop-out from school a few years back; she assumed that since I am the top student in university and an extremely smart person, I must be good with studies when in polytechinic, so she was curious why I went and did another diploma before going into year 1. Right after she got off, she smsed me, promising me she won't tell anyone about what I shared with her and she gave me her msn which I didn't ask her for. A chain of sms conversation followed as we joked teasingly with each other.

So anyway, fast forward to Tue of week 7, our conversation was still great as always and she has been sharing and talking about herself over those last 4-5 weeks; in fact I didn't get the chance to tell her about myself since she was practically talking non-stop about herself, a sign she was definitely interested in me as she's not really an extrovert but rather quite middle on the introvert-extrovert continuum. I didn't ask her out this time but when she got out of the train, she smsed me something about some class arrangement thingy which I was planning. I told her I will need to work and plan things out first and that I will call her in 2 days time. But I called the next day (i.e. Wed of week 7) and I told her how the plan will go and we settled on meeting that Fri so that I can pass her the stuffs. Then we talked about other things and the conversation dynamics remained status quo. Then I thought I would ask her out the next week (i.e. weekends of week 8, which is this current week) where we are free from classes. Then I thought I noticed her tone changed slightly and there was a slight pause when she noticed I was steering the conversation subtly to restaurants but since I couldn't see her facial and body language, I can't tell exactly. So anyway, I asked casually if she wants to go and chill over dinner at so-and-so cafe. She said she's not sure about her schedule and I said ok, then let me know at a later date. Then we talked casually about other things and then a mischievious thought about testing her came to my mind to see if she's interested. So I casually mentioned in passing about my ex and I thought I detect some silence but again, with the absence of body language and facial expression, I can't deduce if it was just me being sensitive. So that ends a short while later. And it seems she was a little eager to hang up. That was when I thought I must have went a little too far and too strongly, like asking her out 3 times consecutively on 3 phone calls in 3 weeks. When I smsed her the next day (i.e. Thu, the day before we agreed to meet) about a sudden change in plans, her smses were sharp to the point with full absence of smileys, which prior to this was never the case (her messages were always loaded with smileys), and she cancelled the meeting as she said she would get those stuff on Sat instead.

That Sat of week 7, which was just 3 days after the phone conversation, we had class and I shifted from my normal seating arrangement and joined our click of friends; she did not move away from her normal seating arrangement though she knows I change over to sit at her table; I left my bag on the chair that separated us so there was some distance. I was sure I noticed her not open to my conversation initiatives; she answered my questions with short answers, which I knew she must be trying to push me away. I, of course, remain calm and simply talked to the rest of the click. Since she got something on later after class, we went our separate ways.

Then came Sun of week 8 (the next day and the Sun that just went by), we had class again. I did something more overt to test her a little and see if she is avoiding me totally. I sat this time on the chair that I put my bag on yesterday (i.e. Sat of week 7) and she came in later than me but she just sat down on her same usual seat, which then is just next to me. Tried some friendly conversation and she seems ok with that though she wasn't bring it further. However, on our way home, I observe our conversational dynamics and it was obvious she does not feel comfortable talking to me. Though she still talked, I somehow felt it was like she was doing so as to not have unbearable silences. It was painful to witness and I tried to keep some physical distance from her in hopes it will make her feel less uncomfortable while asking some talking about some things non-threatening like travelling. Some other tell-tale body language signs from her was she was unknowingly zipping and unzipping one of her bag's pockets while she was talking to me. That was when I knew that night's conversation and attempt to ask her out again must have caused her some stress.

Anyway, I am seeing her tomorrow in class and this time, I think I will keep a distance away from her, at least one seat further from her like I did on Sat and then ignore her unless she talks to me. I am willing to give her the personal space she needs since it was never my intention to come on strongly on her, though I never would have thought that was strong. There were girls that I dated who was ok with this but then I shouldn't use it as a yardstick.

So anyway, after such a long long story of recounting what happened over the last 7-8 weeks, what would you girls think about this situation? Tell me whether I was pursuing too strongly? Tell me what would be the best option now? Any suggestions and solutions that can make her feel comfortable with me again and recover that attraction she had for me before? I don't know what to make out of this situation but I kind of think that she might now be in an uncertainty stage of whether she wants to date me seriously and that I happen to come on too strongly on her that she now doubts and mistrust me, probably thinking about how could I be so sure that she is the one for me since I don't really know her well enough yet; and I thought that was the purpose of dating - to get to know the other person better in a casual setting like dinner in a casual restarant or cafe. I have to add that she is a little conservative, evident from the way she dress (darn, why did I not take that into consideration earlier); though she dress well, she never had anything that showed her cleavage or expose any part of her body from her neck to her mid-thighs. And she worked 4 years on her current 1st job, which I think is a good indicator of her good upbringing and personality?

So what should I do? I need and appreciate advice from the girls. Thanks a million in advance.

[Tough Love]

No i dont think you are pursuing too strongly, although i could be wrong, based on what you have given over, i think your a sweety who worries too much about his actions will come across, and reads perhaps a little too much negativity into his own actions. Having said that, the account of your times together sound more like friendship than relationship, you need to be quite careful about not getting into the friendship circle as once your in it, it gets hard for a girl to see you a different way. Dont be too obvious about giving her distance, you dont want her to feel like she is dealing with the stresses of a relationship when there still is none on the cards, her automatic thought will be ''if he behaves like this without us even being involved imagine how he will behave if we got together?''
Is she the type with many friends and after uni activities? Because that might explain her evasiveness. Do you have many friends and activities?

But you genuinely seem like a nice dude!

Reading back over your first post, i would say on face value (obviously you should asses whther its a suitable reaction) that you should show a leeeetle bit of interest in another girl in front of her, but not too obviously, all it needs is a little smile at someone else (not too strong or you seem like a fickle player). A little jealousy never did anyone any harm in trying to woo a girl. It makes her really think when really she is just floating along with it ;)

[JohnDoe]

Holy crap alot of detail


So I'm going to admit I just skimmed that.. but dude, shes just not all that into you.


it was obvious she does not feel comfortable talking to me


So, um, you should uh, back off, because you shouldn't be going after her at all, because she doesn't want you to? Read what you wrote again.

[llBradll]

I'm not a female as you can guess, but I can help you. While I don't think your pursuing too strongly, you sort of seem to carry a big sign around saying that you're available. Girls want a guy who's a challenge, and it sounds like you're already giving her the "that special girl" position. I think you had her but lost her IMO, I wouldn't try to get her back though, it sounds like a lost cause.

On a side-note, I don't think that telling her something very personal upfront was a good idea. It could translate to say that you're interested in her hardcore.

[JohnDoe]

On a side-note, I don't think that telling her something very personal upfront was a good idea. It could translate to say that you're interested in her hardcore.

Some people connect by making themselves vulnerable. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as what you share is not creepy.

[Tough Love]

it seems like she is sharing quite a bit as well...





Tough Love added to this post, 1 minutes and 57 seconds later...

You might want to sit a little further away from her in class though, maybe you should have done this earlier when you were getting along great and see if she came to sit next to you.

[gestalt]

If she's into you you'll catch her looking at you, trying to read you. Time is essential, give the wrong cues(on purpose or not) for too wrong and she'll move on.

[Beulah]

She could be too busy - but sounds like she has doubts or isn't into you... if so back off, just be friendly more as it was, and watch (not obviously) for interest (which may or may not renew). As a female I hate pressure, did when young and still when old - feel crowded. It is a little concerning she talked that much re herself and no signif. interest in finding out about you. She may just be independent and self not relationship oriented.
After several dates it would seem more normal for less formal organisation of time together and that she'd initiate if very interested. Might be mildly in which case act like its less important to you. No girl wants an easy prize.

[Harmony]

Are you sure that she didn't think you guys were going to the movies as just friends? It sounds like she likes you....but as a friend... So when the "dating" feeling comes out she backs off....Again, it's hard to tell, not all girls are the same.

[Seriously]

Doesn't sound like you came on to strong just sounds like she lost interest at some point. Unfortunately that happens and there is no accounting for it. I would move on and if at some point she changes her mind about you, she will let you know.

[BlackOp]

If a girl likes you, she will let you know. Its really a very simple process...you dont have to ask them out repeatedly, they hear you the first time. Every good relationship I have been in started with flow...there wasnt resistance and constant questioning to whether she was interested. Some girls like to be chased...to prop up a sagging ego. Those have never worked out for me....maybe your situation is different but I doubt it.

My advice is to go about your business as usual....dont drum up the 'hurt feelings/wounded ego". I would remain congenial with her. You started with nothing so you really havent lost anything... unless you gave up more than you should and thats on you.

[Tsukasa]

I think it is interesting the different ways that people approach relationships and love; especially trying to break from a 'friend' circle to an 'intimate' circle. What is it that you are looking for from this particular girl? What personality type do you think she is? You seem to have spent some time with her, so I thought you might have a guess.

Does she make sense to you?

[Henry]

Ok, is it true that if a guy pursue a girl too strongly and too fast, the girl will get frightened and pull back (i.e. show disinterest or blow hot and cold)? If assuming that to be the case, what should the guy do, assuming that initially there is interest from the girl as well? Is there anything that can remedy the situation and make her feel comfortable and attracted once again?

Asking women what they want relationally is a fool's errand because 9/10 are conditioned to say very different things from what they actually feel/do. They're driven by attraction, just like men are, only society tells them its bad to admit what most of them genuinely want. Their advice will turn you into a sniveling, whining, lonely wimp.

My advice: if you've smothered someone and they're pulling back because of it, pull back completely and let them come to you. They probably wont' because smothering is incredibly unattractive, but I can assure you that more smothering is not the answer.

[Maayan]

Her feelings for you don't seem to have been growing lately. It sounds like she might have been interested, but then you pushed too hard and scared her off.

I would chill out and leave her alone for a few weeks -- unless she comes to you first. Where you should have left things to be as they will, you've been pushing and pushing to be seen a certain way. In doing so, you've just reinforced any negative images that she may hold. Also, for your own sake, you don't want to build up your hopes if it's likely to just crash you down harder if things don't work out the way you'd hoped. As it stands, it sounds like you're taking things way too hard and personally.

"But she left after the movie though I had asked the previous day over the phone if she was rushing off anywhere after the movie, to which she replied no. And I thought the dating norm was that people usually don't make any appointments to go off after the event. But when I asked her again while we were shopping before the movie, she told me she would be meeting a friend later. I was like, what, I thought I just asked last night; apparently she fixed a date with her friend after we end our phone conversation and before we met."

She might have just had her fill and wanted to end the date on a high note. From what you've said, it doesn't necessarily sound like it was a reflection of her opinion of you.

[llBradll]

Some people connect by making themselves vulnerable. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as what you share is not creepy.
Would you give somebody you just met money? Since when is vulnerability not a bad thing? especially when its with somebody that hes just getting to know.

Asking women what they want relationally is a fool's errand because 9/10 are conditioned to say very different things from what they actually feel/do. They're driven by attraction, just like men are, only society tells them its bad to admit what most of them genuinely want. Their advice will turn you into a sniveling, whining, lonely wimp.

My advice: if you've smothered someone and they're pulling back because of it, pull back completely and let them come to you. They probably wont' because smothering is incredibly unattractive, but I can assure you that more smothering is not the answer. I think this advice is spot on. If she doesn't come back than atleast you don't lose more ground.

[JohnDoe]

Would you give somebody you just met money? Since when is vulnerability not a bad thing? especially when its with somebody that hes just getting to know.

Would I loan someone I just met money? Maybe.. whats their FICO :P

[llBradll]

Would I loan someone I just met money? Maybe.. whats their FICO :PWell, I've never really understood most F's too well.

[Acextreme]

I think it is interesting the different ways that people approach relationships and love; especially trying to break from a 'friend' circle to an 'intimate' circle. What is it that you are looking for from this particular girl? What personality type do you think she is? You seem to have spent some time with her, so I thought you might have a guess.

Does she make sense to you?

I wasn't really looking for anything initially. But after she started to talk to me for a while, I thought she was kind of untainted by the world and that got me a little interested; I like girls who are more pure and simple who don't go into the complexity of social intricacies so I can relax more easily.

I tried to figure out how her personality is but even her introversion and extroversion scale is very balanced so I really can't make anything out without asking her to do the MBTI test. Maybe more of a sensor, but yet it seems she uses her intuition for these kind of things pretty well too. The F is probably more confirmed, but J or P, I would be inclined towards a little more J since she does a timetable kind of thing for her revision schedule. But even this J/P thing isn't very obvious either. Very, very hard to determine her type; I read most of the MBTI description but I don't seem to find one that fit her yet...

Her feelings for you don't seem to have been growing lately. It sounds like she might have been interested, but then you pushed too hard and scared her off.

I would chill out and leave her alone for a few weeks -- unless she comes to you first. Where you should have left things to be as they will, you've been pushing and pushing to be seen a certain way. In doing so, you've just reinforced any negative images that she may hold. Also, for your own sake, you don't want to build up your hopes if it's likely to just crash you down harder if things don't work out the way you'd hoped. As it stands, it sounds like you're taking things way too hard and personally.



She might have just had her fill and wanted to end the date on a high note. From what you've said, it doesn't necessarily sound like it was a reflection of her opinion of you.

Yeah, I thought I could have pushed a little too hard and scared her. So I was thinking that I would be a little frank with her, saying something like this:

Hey, you know what, I hope you don't mind me being a little frank and direct with you on certain things but I thought it will be good for us in the longer run as it takes the guesswork out of it. Well, it seems that lately you are a little uncomfortable about certain things and I could only guess what it could be and I hope you can answer this honestly: Are you feeling uncomfortable when I asked you out? [Depending on her response, I will steer it to this:]

Ok, I get your drift. Your view and my view on this might be a little different and I thought I would want to make things clear so that there won't be any misunderstandings. Well, it is true that I am a little interested in you BUT, but that's about it, nothing more than that because after all, I don't really know you well yet so the dinner meet-up kind of thing, I actually only intended it to be a really, REALLY, casual kind of thing, like how acquintances meet up over dinner to chill out, have dinner, talk, relax and basically to get to know each other more in a social setting rather than an academical setting because I for one segregate social and academic life distinctively; work is work and socializing is a different thing altogether. So really, it's a casual thing and I hope you don't think otherwise. Anyway, this weekend, let's just forget about it; I have my own plans already and over the next couple of weeks, I am going to concentrate on my studies, so we shall see how things go after the exams, ya? Chill...

After having said that, I will back off from her and talk a lot less to her to let her know I am keeping away from her for a while, and to give her a little space. Besides, I need to concentrate for the exams too and I think this slightly frank approach might be better than covering things up. What do the gals think about this?

[Maayan]

- "I thought it will be good for us"
- "I actually only intend it to be a really, REALLY, casual kind of thing [...]"
- "Anyway, this weekend, let's just forget about it"
- "so we shall see how things go after the exams"

... still pushy; especially that last part where you tell her that you're already planning your next move. Again, you're focused on how you intend things to be, rather than on how you've been received.

I don't think it's necessary to say anything.

[Seriously]

I would nix the talk and just lay low for awhile. No one likes confrontation when they have been trying to avoid one as it appears she has been doing. I know I don't. That talk would most likely put the last nail in the coffin of my interest in you.

Just me though.

[Acextreme]

- "I thought it will be good for us"
- "I actually only intend it to be a really, REALLY, casual kind of thing [...]"
- "Anyway, this weekend, let's just forget about it"
- "so we shall see how things go after the exams"

... still pushy; especially that last part where you tell her that you're already planning your next move. Again, you're drawing attention to how you intend things to be, rather than what they are.

I don't think it's necessary to say anything.

I would nix the talk and just lay low for awhile. No one likes confrontation when they have been trying to avoid one as it appears she has been doing. I know I don't. That talk would most likely put the last nail in the coffin of my interest in you.

Just me though.

Ok, so basically, what both of you suggested was "If there is no fire, don't talk about the smoke"; simply let it go by and act as nothing has happened and don't even bring up the thing any more since she acted in this way to avoid confrontation in the first place. I think both of you got a point and I guess that would be for the best. Ok, I shall keep mum about it...





Acextreme added to this post, 93 minutes and 40 seconds later...

Are you sure that she didn't think you guys were going to the movies as just friends? It sounds like she likes you....but as a friend... So when the "dating" feeling comes out she backs off....Again, it's hard to tell, not all girls are the same.

Hmmm, I wouldn't think so since the moment I got her number, I got her out. That was precisely what I wanted to avoid in the first place. And we didn't really kind of got to know each other that much as a friend initially.

[Beulah]

Yep too pushy - sounds like you really do care but are trying to make out you don't.
Now if it was edited down A LOT it could be useful to clear the air. Prolly not as useful tho as leaving things unsaid and just backing right up. That doesn't mean closing the door if you remain congenial as another put it. Just don't keep suggesting date kind of things as a few no's should indicate its not a happening thing at the mo'. Patience - and if its not going to be then developed further at her initiative within say a few months forget it. More fish in the sea.

[Anreader]

"Hey, you know what, I hope you don't mind me being a little frank and direct with you on certain things but I thought it will be good for us in the longer run as it takes the guesswork out of it. Well, it seems that lately you are a little uncomfortable about certain things and I could only guess what it could be and I hope you can answer this honestly: Are you feeling uncomfortable when I asked you out? [Depending on her response, I will steer it to this..."

I would have to say you are being too direct. Not necessarily, coming on too strong, but too... aggressive. If you had said these things to me, it would weird me out. First of all, so far there really is no "us" or anything that would lead to a "long run." Secondly, its a bad idea to draw attention to anyone being uncomfortable. I personally would become either defensive and aggressive, or simply shut down due to a perceived emotional headache... Either way you are coming off too... Paternal, I think.

[Acextreme]

"Hey, you know what, I hope you don't mind me being a little frank and direct with you on certain things but I thought it will be good for us in the longer run as it takes the guesswork out of it. Well, it seems that lately you are a little uncomfortable about certain things and I could only guess what it could be and I hope you can answer this honestly: Are you feeling uncomfortable when I asked you out? [Depending on her response, I will steer it to this..."

I would have to say you are being too direct. Not necessarily, coming on too strong, but too... aggressive. If you had said these things to me, it would weird me out. First of all, so far there really is no "us" or anything that would lead to a "long run." Secondly, its a bad idea to draw attention to anyone being uncomfortable. I personally would become either defensive and aggressive, or simply shut down due to a perceived emotional headache... Either way you are coming off too... Paternal, I think.

Heh, I haven't said that and I was glad I didn't; when I wrote that, I was simply contemplating it but good thing I decided not to use that approach after the advice of Maayan and Seriously. Well, I was asking whether I was coming on too strong with my long post on the first page where I described in details what happened in those 8 weeks that led up to her reaction.

Well, things now are more normal and we are back on talking terms, though not exactly back to where we are before, I guess that will take a little more time. Well, judging that she is a pretty conservative asian girl in a pretty conservative south-east asian country (but prosperous), I guess I would need to slow things down. Her view of dating might actually be quite different from that of the Westerners; I think I am pretty much "westernized" though I am a native here. So looks like I would have to deliberately slow things down.

Maybe I will talk more to her first, for at least a month or so before I proceed to attempt to ask her out again, maybe suggesting her to join my friend or her friend or our friends to make things more comfortable for her. What do you gals suggest would be a good approach to get her to be comfortable with being around me?

[Lucid]

Asking women what they want relationally is a fool's errand because 9/10 are conditioned to say very different things from what they actually feel/do. They're driven by attraction, just like men are, only society tells them its bad to admit what most of them genuinely want. Their advice will turn you into a sniveling, whining, lonely wimp.

Sound argument. Unfortunately the same is true of men. Ask them and many will describe an INTJ female with the body of Pamela Anderson. In reality, they typically want someone a lot more feminine, despite the fact that more feminine is also more of a pain in the ass for most guys. This is also true for men, incidentally. More masculine is more of a pain in the ass, but it's also more desirable than your typical "sensitive" guy.

Therefore, I concur with everyone else and will suggest that you retreat and wait. At the very least you will be able to salvage your dignity.

[spiritdetectivegirl]

I don't like guys who come on to strong but that might be a personal thing. I hate feeling pressured or like someone is trying to force things. I went out with a guy this weekend who was to pushy and therefore there won't be another date. Dunno for me once you turn me off you it's pretty much over.

I'm all about going with the flow and just letting things happen if they are going to. And for the love of God don't ask me if you can kiss me. If the moment is there it will happen but asking to kiss me is just lame, IMO anyway.

Hehe sorry I started going off on a tangent, didn't I?


No way are you alone in this. For a while I felt shallow for thinking this, but scraped that thought after I had a guy force a kiss on me. Arse-hole does'nt understand the word 'no'.

Next time I'm crackin' some bones.

[Acextreme]

Hey, I got a question I want to ask the ladies here. What are the possible reasons that a girl do not upfront turn down a guy's date invitation by saying she's busy that day or she already got an appointment or something?

This gal that I mentioned, she would say she's not too sure about her schedule, etc, or hinting that we should use that venue that I suggested for the click outing after the exams. If a girl just want to be friends, wouldn't they simply just turn down the guys by saying "oh, I am so sorry, I am already meeting a friend that day" or something similar? Based on my experience, this would usually have been the case for girls who are not interested in a relationship but just want to be friends. For those who are totally not interested in anything, they would simply avoid the guy and keep avoiding him. She doesn't seem to be doing these, can I infer anything from it?

[Cocoa]

I don't like someone coming on too strong either. This because it's scary! lol. It makes me wonder what are they after? And makes me feel like their pursuit is too extreme.

Yes there is a way to remedy this...
... take it easy and be more caring I think. If I think you're definitely only after something, I won't have it and I'll leave. I guess what's important is to show you care about her genuinely as a person, not as an object, a curiosity or a sex toy.

[pure potential]

Connections- you either have one or you don't. They can develop, but without the other facet: "mutual interest", they never will. You gotta be able to take the risk to plug into the potential outlet to see if it fits or ever could. If it doesn't, then you are better off elsewhere. Kudos to you for goin' for it!

Letting someone know directly that you like them (verbally or through written words describing your interest, not just punching them on the shoulder and running :)) and want to take them out should be enough to seal the deal- if there is a connection. It sounds like you are in the midst of this one, yet I wonder how clear were your intentions were? You're interested, yes, but in what? I agree that vulnerability is everything when establishing a connection. There's no need for any lurking or other relentless pursuing, unless she is responding to it in a way that tells you she likes it and wants more. You as a male will have no idea if that is the case since our female minds are quite the labyrinth, so your best bet is to lay it out on the line (then run!). :p

For further questions to her interest, write your feelings down and share them with her that way (I'd rec' email to streamline the response). Its safe, unconfrontational and direct (as much as a non-face-to-face could be). Then I'd back off and ride out what comes. At least you'll hopefully receive some insight and be able to adjust your direction to better focus your energy towards successful pursuits. She just may or may not be one of them.

Regarding challenges, I love them but can't stand them when it comes to relationships! Not every woman wants a challenge or to play the dating game, some just want you to let us know what you're thinking so we can just be able to respond directly. As complex as us females can play, we are far more simple than you think.

When it comes down to it, she could just very well not be ready. It sounds like she is distancing, so there is reason to believe anything. Send her a message, ask for a response and move forward from there. Space and freedom is everything to some of us and will need to be respected before any type of trust/relationship can be established. Something to think about that your INTJ'ness may relate to.

Good luck!! :thumbsup:

[Seriously]

Hey, I got a question I want to ask the ladies here. What are the possible reasons that a girl do not upfront turn down a guy's date invitation by saying she's busy that day or she already got an appointment or something?

This gal that I mentioned, she would say she's not too sure about her schedule, etc, or hinting that we should use that venue that I suggested for the click outing after the exams. If a girl just want to be friends, wouldn't they simply just turn down the guys by saying "oh, I am so sorry, I am already meeting a friend that day" or something similar? Based on my experience, this would usually have been the case for girls who are not interested in a relationship but just want to be friends. For those who are totally not interested in anything, they would simply avoid the guy and keep avoiding him. She doesn't seem to be doing these, can I infer anything from it?

I'm generally not upfront if I'm unsure of how I feel about him. I might be wavering, not wanting to go full throttle forward but also not wanting to put the brakes on either. So yea I would say there is hope but tread cautiously so you don't scare her off. hehe it's kind of like hunting a skittish deer. ;-)

[WratSpa]

I don't like being pursued too strongly, and one of my "turn-offs" is when a guy appears to be "trying too hard." But, like someone mentioned earlier...you're going to get a biased opinion on this forum. Maybe some girls out there like guys who push hard...I don't.

In any event, if you want to try to rectify the situation...talk to her. Explain that you have noticed you might've come on a little too strong in the beginning, but that you don't want to miss out on getting to know her...and that you would like to have another shot. Then back off, and let her come to you. If she doesn't, then you'll have to accept that her attraction isn't there anymore, and move on.

Good luck.

[JohnDoe]

In any event, if you want to try to rectify the situation...talk to her. Explain that you have noticed you might've come on a little too strong in the beginning, but that you don't want to miss out on getting to know her...and that you would like to have another shot. Then back off, and let her come to you. If she doesn't, then you'll have to accept that her attraction isn't there anymore, and move on.

Good luck.

Well intentioned advice that is going to make you look creepy. Don't do this.

[Acextreme]

Connections- you either have one or you don't. They can develop, but without the other facet: "mutual interest", they never will. You gotta be able to take the risk to plug into the potential outlet to see if it fits or ever could. If it doesn't, then you are better off elsewhere. Kudos to you for goin' for it!

Letting someone know directly that you like them (verbally or through written words describing your interest, not just punching them on the shoulder and running :)) and want to take them out should be enough to seal the deal- if there is a connection. It sounds like you are in the midst of this one, yet I wonder how clear were your intentions were? You're interested, yes, but in what? I agree that vulnerability is everything when establishing a connection. There's no need for any lurking or other relentless pursuing, unless she is responding to it in a way that tells you she likes it and wants more. You as a male will have no idea if that is the case since our female minds are quite the labyrinth, so your best bet is to lay it out on the line (then run!). :p

For further questions to her interest, write your feelings down and share them with her that way (I'd rec' email to streamline the response). Its safe, unconfrontational and direct (as much as a non-face-to-face could be). Then I'd back off and ride out what comes. At least you'll hopefully receive some insight and be able to adjust your direction to better focus your energy towards successful pursuits. She just may or may not be one of them.

Regarding challenges, I love them but can't stand them when it comes to relationships! Not every woman wants a challenge or to play the dating game, some just want you to let us know what you're thinking so we can just be able to respond directly. As complex as us females can play, we are far more simple than you think.

When it comes down to it, she could just very well not be ready. It sounds like she is distancing, so there is reason to believe anything. Send her a message, ask for a response and move forward from there. Space and freedom is everything to some of us and will need to be respected before any type of trust/relationship can be established. Something to think about that your INTJ'ness may relate to.

Good luck!! :thumbsup:

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that I should be more upfront with her about what I am interested in her? And that I should tell her about it? For example, maybe call her after the exams and talk and that as a passing statement to something, I might say something like "hey, you know what, I think you are actually a very prudent person and I like that about you" or something similar?

Regarding that last bold underlined statement that I enlarged, what exactly do you mean? It's kind of ambiguous; does it mean I ask her how she feels about me though email? Wouldn't that actually be "confrontational" and too forthright? A little background over here about our culture: we might be a bit similar to how the Japs communicate where most communication might actually be implicit than explicitly stated and that's what makes communication a little tacky of an issue to deal with; I would very much like an American approach to doing things since it is definitely more efficient and have less room for misunderstanding but that kind of approach might not be ideal here, especially when I am a native Asian as well.

[pure potential]

Re: the first question, I meant letting her know simply and clearly that you like her and want to date her. You've implied the above through previous contact, but have you clearly stated it ("I like you and want to date you")? Its futile to assume people understand what we are thinking, regardless of how blatant we think we have been with our nudges, approaches, etc.

On the second question, pretty much same as above. Put into simple detail what you are feeling/thinking ("I like you and want to date you, do you feel the same? I feel like you have been distancing and want to know if you'd like me to back off? etc) and send it to her in an email (save yourself both the awkwardness from saying it face-to-face). The email should be more than enough to make sure you're both on the same page and fire up the connection if there is one. If she doesn't respond, you're still left hanging, but at least you can be confident you have been more than clear with your intentions and put the ball in her court to make the next move. Hopefully then you can back off- if need be- or move ahead with some closure/peace that you have done your part.

[SurpriseMe]

Asking women what they want relationally is a fool's errand because 9/10 are conditioned to say very different things from what they actually feel/do. They're driven by attraction, just like men are, only society tells them its bad to admit what most of them genuinely want. Their advice will turn you into a sniveling, whining, lonely wimp.

My advice: if you've smothered someone and they're pulling back because of it, pull back completely and let them come to you. They probably wont' because smothering is incredibly unattractive, but I can assure you that more smothering is not the answer.

There are plenty of men who play head games or can't figure out what they want, and plenty of emotionally mature, forthright women.

Ironically, the advice I would give, as a woman (and which plenty of other women here have given), is the same as yours.


Hey, I got a question I want to ask the ladies here. What are the possible reasons that a girl do not upfront turn down a guy's date invitation by saying she's busy that day or she already got an appointment or something?

This gal that I mentioned, she would say she's not too sure about her schedule, etc, or hinting that we should use that venue that I suggested for the click outing after the exams. If a girl just want to be friends, wouldn't they simply just turn down the guys by saying "oh, I am so sorry, I am already meeting a friend that day" or something similar? Based on my experience, this would usually have been the case for girls who are not interested in a relationship but just want to be friends. For those who are totally not interested in anything, they would simply avoid the guy and keep avoiding him. She doesn't seem to be doing these, can I infer anything from it?

Your example of how she could have been upfront wasn't very upfront in itself. She actually said she was busy each time you asked her out, and your example was another phrasing of the very same message. The problem is that rejection is difficult, to receive and to inflict. It's wildly uncomfortable, often confronts us unexpectedly, and it's difficult to navigate.

Personally, I tend to have a pretty good idea of what I want so I usually do okay turning down an offer as clearly and politely as possible. But I can also relate to the tendency to make an excuse as a means of hinting at rejection rather than simply doing it.

This tendency is much easier to give in to when the offer is phrased just as vaguely or hintingly. Since you have not asked this girl directly out on a date, making it expressly clear what she would be getting into were she to accept, she is left with the uncomfortable uncertainty of your intentions and how much you hope to gain from a minimum of risk on your part.

Had you been more direct, saying something along the lines of, "Hey, SoAndSo, I find you really intriguing/funny/fun to be with/whatever, would you like to go out with me sometime? Maybe we could get some coffee?"

This way, you're being clear and respectful of the fact that she needs to be able to make an informed choice. It's scary being upfront, and she knows that so she'll respect you for it - which boosts your chances at a "yes". Even if she does turn you down in the end, at least she'll be able to do so openly, you'll both be on the same page with some closure, and you won't feel the urge to keep "testing" her (a dreaded tactic I've received plenty from pressuring types).

So, what's keeping her from openly rejecting you now instead of making excuses? Since you've hinted you'd like a date instead of expressly asking for one, she's most likely uncertain how you would react. Even though she's pretty sure you're probably asking for a date, the vagueness leaves room for you to turn around and reject her by saying, oh, you weren't all that interested in her in the first place. (Sound familiar?) That's a pretty transparent move that I don't recommend. It disrespects the intelligence and intuition of both of you and pretends the obvious isn't so, all for the sake of saving face. And since you're the one making the offer, playing a bait-and-switch move is neither classy, mature, or respectful.

All the more reason to be more straigtforward about what you're asking for in the first place.

That said, at this point, just take a breath and read the signs. It's okay for someone not to feel the same way about you as you feel about them, it's bound to happen. I understand that you want to re-open the dialogue, and that's probably because there's been more guesswork than clarity so far.

You could either let it drop, and move on in a respectful fashion. Ignoring her outright is a bit disingenuous because you both know you enjoyed her company recently, so it's more like you're punishing her for rejecting you than she's suddenly become less interesting. Keep your head up, and be polite.

Or, you could make a final, direct, honest offer of a date. I'd say that after all that passive aggressive testing and pressure, your chances of a yes are less than they might have been, but at least you can acknowledge what you wanted all along and the issue can be resolved without any further gray area. If she says no, tell her that you understand and that there are no hard feelings.



PS
Don't beat yourself up about dropping out before. I can relate to you there, and just want to say that young people endure a lot of pressure to perform on a specific timeline despite many stressors unique to each individual and their circumstances. Don't get too caught up in the idea of the rat race - everyone has their own path, and the important thing is what you learn about yourself along the way, not whether others approve of where you're going or how you got there.

[Henry]

There are plenty of men who play head games or can't figure out what they want, and plenty of emotionally mature, forthright women.

Ironically, the advice I would give, as a woman (and which plenty of other women here have given), is the same as yours.

Yeah actually I would advise against asking uninterested members of the opposite sex for dating advice generally. I'd have no idea how to go about dating some guy, and a woman may know what she likes but probably doesn't know how to execute it.

The OPs question was kinda obvious. He was clearly coming on way, way too strong.

Sound argument. Unfortunately the same is true of men. Ask them and many will describe an INTJ female with the body of Pamela Anderson. In reality, they typically want someone a lot more feminine, despite the fact that more feminine is also more of a pain in the ass for most guys.

Agree completely. I thought I mentioned it but I guess I only mentioned it briefly.

[SurpriseMe]

Yeah actually I would advise against asking uninterested members of the opposite sex for dating advice generally. I'd have no idea how to go about dating some guy, and a woman may know what she likes but probably doesn't know how to execute it.

The OPs question was kinda obvious. He was clearly coming on way, way too strong.


Obvious to us, maybe. Others had different opinions.

And, again, a man may know what he likes but could not know how to execute it. I don't think men and women are so simple as the lazy Hollywood archetyping suggests.

[Acextreme]

Your example of how she could have been upfront wasn't very upfront in itself. She actually said she was busy each time you asked her out, and your example was another phrasing of the very same message. The problem is that rejection is difficult, to receive and to inflict. It's wildly uncomfortable, often confronts us unexpectedly, and it's difficult to navigate.


Eh, the way she avoided my date initiative is a little different from the upfront rejection example I gave. Here it is: "I am not too sure about my schedule yet" and "I already have something on that day". See the difference? The first is avoiding and trying not to reject, while the other is a clear reject. But again, this in itself may not say anything since each girl's style of turning a guy down might be different. Well, I guess only time will tell but my J tendency is getting on my nerves lately! Darn...

[WratSpa]

Well intentioned advice that is going to make you look creepy. Don't do this.

You've got a point, be he'll never know what could have happened if he doesn't try. If she does take the bait, then great...if she doesn't, she wasn't going to anyway (regardless of what he said or did - or didn't do). You have to take some risks in life, or you'll never know.

[JohnDoe]

You've got a point, be he'll never know what could have happened if he doesn't try. If she does take the bait, then great...if she doesn't, she wasn't going to anyway (regardless of what he said or did - or didn't do). You have to take some risks in life, or you'll never know.

My objection is not to doing something; if he really wants to find out for sure he can ask her out; my objection is to the way you proposed doing that.

[Lucid]

Agree completely. I thought I mentioned it but I guess I only mentioned it briefly.

Well because the OP is asking about a female there's no need to get into it. I only really mentioned it out of commiseration.

[JohnDoe]

Eh, the way she avoided my date initiative is a little different from the upfront rejection example I gave. Here it is: "I am not too sure about my schedule yet" and "I already have something on that day".

A safe running assumption is that anyone who actually wanted to go out with you would say something to indicate that while they were busy, they were amenable to your idea. You've asked her twice. If she was genuinely busy, she would have made an effort to clarify that she was interested in you. Shes almost certainly not interested in you. The fact that she is maintaining distance makes it even clearer shes not interested in you. Ignore the people on this thread telling you to go for it. You did go for it. Kudos. You got shot down. Now your feelings are interfering with your common sense. Deal with it. Don't go and do something creepy and awkward like force a confrontational conversation or ask her out a third time. I tried to not be really blunt in this thread, but your getting alot of horrible advice, so I'm going to be very very blunt. Abort this train of thought now before you embarrass yourself.

Edit: Next time be upfront and ask her out clearly for something that is obviously a date as opposed to doing all this testing interest bullshit.
Edit2: We are not in highschool anymore. Act like it. You don't need to test someones interest, you just ask them on a date ffs.