Mac, or Windows based P.C.

[MetalWounds]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed, however I would be interesed to see how the INTJ crowd breaks down. I already have a pretty firm idea of how this will break down, it will be interesting to see the results.

(linux/unix need not apply) :thumbsup:

[MichaelH]

I won't argue the "ooo pretty" feature of Macs. There's nothing wrong with appreciating computer aesthestics, and Macs clearly win here. Compare the results of googling "make Windows look like OS X" and "make linux look like OS X" to those of "make OS X look like Windows".

But pretty isn't the whole story by a long shot. I'm subjectively more productive on my Mac. I don't tweak themes - there aren't any, and Leopard doesn't need them. I've got my office applications and OmniWeb and GlassWriter Pro. Fonts look great. My documents look great. I don't have to swear at Microsoft about usability problems every 30 seconds. (Good lord, how many freakin' dialog boxes can you pop up in the first minute after boot?) Disk utility makes it brain-dead easy to copy CDs for work and save an image on my hard drive for later. I have yet to see anything even close to iTunes for usable music management.

Sure, most of what I'm doing, I could do in Linux or Windows also. But the Mac integrates things so well it doesn't feel like a stretch to make things happen.

I forgot to have a good way to wrap up this post, so...uh...
Macs: wheeee!

[BadMojo]

Facts about computers:

Macs are pretty
Windows actually works

Macs cost a fortune
PC's are cheap

Windows is not secure
OS X is not safe

Windows can handle more games.
Macs can run windows and then run the games - but oh the horror

Windows PCs are struggling with its many problems
Macs are living in denial

Windows Media Player is ok
Itunes Sux

Bill Gates is boring
Steve jobs is cool (But I think he is the Anti-Christ :P )

I'm running out of ideas...

[MichaelH]

Macs are pretty
Windows actually works


In what way do Macs, by contrast, not "actually work"?

Macs can run windows and then run the games - but oh the horror

I can't believe I'm about to type this:

lol!

[snoogit]

Facts about computers:

Windows is not secure
OS X is not safe

Just an update on that:

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Ironically enough Vista has the least amount of security flaws out of any consumer OS today.

[BadMojo]

Just an update on that:

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Ironically enough Vista has the least amount of security flaws out of any consumer OS today.
I was just about to post that.

In what way do Macs, by contrast, not "actually work"?

Well... I didn't say that didn't hehe... I was just patronizing them in an indirect manner. :laugh:
Also, Windows used to suck, but Windows is really good imho. :)

[HackerX]

I have yet to see anything even close to iTunes for usable music management.

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[ShaiGar]

What is a consumer Operating System? Is that an operating system for someone stupid enough to pay money for an operating system? Compare those problems to either PCBSD, or Ubuntu...

[xhaan]

Chose abacus for fun... because you left out *nix. :(

[Thomas]

Greetings

I use Windows, Linux, and Mac. No one's version of Linux is, as yet, ready for the casual user--but, that's only because of the human interface, not because of operating system shortcomings. (Don't forget, Macs have been running Unix as the base OS for years now.)

I have been in the computer industry for almost thirty years; I currently design and evaluate large, high-performance database systems. I use many Unix features in doing my evaluations and calculations (typically on my Mac, which I take with me--along with my PC, which I need for company business--around the world on my travels); when using Windows (user-level stuff, NOTHING "special") I typically end up booting, and rebooting. So, I think that if I look at the amount of time I spend "playing" with my PC just to get things to work, versus the same time doing this on the Mac (NIL), it turns out that Macs are far, far cheaper than PCs. (Incidentally, I have heard that Mac owners running Windows experience a better quality of service than when they ran Windows on a PC. I have no numbers to back this up but, from a pure compatibility perspective, it makes sense.)

Cheers
T.

[BadMojo]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Damn! I like you! This is a great link :thumbsup:

[Jack]

Mac because I can work on music/video files(recording, producing)much faster...And it was the first computer I saw on the market at the time with these applications integrated within the programing, which helps it run smoother.

But I don't know much about this topic so I'll stop.

[Danisty]

PC because Macs are too expensive.

[Aldanga]

I'm a GNU/Linux geek wannabe, but I always learn just enough to get by.

I built myself a computer about a month and a half ago. It's pretty sweet and I run Ubuntu. I think I shall install Windows once I get a decent graphics card. (I'm currently using an IGP.)

I intend to buy a MacBook before I head off to college, but I'll always be a GNU/Linux nerd. I love it.

[iamnotspock]

I have 3 Windows XP, 2 Linux (Red Hat and Ubuntu), and 1 Mac (on the way).

As a wise man once said of religion:

"To the people they are all equally true, to the philosophers all equally false, and to the magistrates equally useful."

I believe the magistrates were INTJ's ;-)

[Bossy Mom]

After having a Mac, everything else is just junk.

[Oica]

I like what I know. PC ftw.

[Sylvanus]

PC's are good for actually accomplishing something, or playing games. Macs are good for video/muic editing (which I couldn't care less about).

I choose PC.

I also like the fact that my PC is modular, so I can throw a couple hundred at it every couple years and keep it up to date. Instead of having to go out and but an all new computer.
New motherboard $130
New Hard Drive (not necessary, just wanted a new one) $160
New video card $160
Total- $450
New iMac with the same specs-$1800

Plus just about all the settings are adjustable so I can set everything to maximize performance without impacting quality.

[Fissiongrid]

Macs are good for video/muic editing (which I couldn't care less about).
That's like saying that black people are only good for running.

Yes, Macs are used more than PCs for video/music editing, but they are also a lot more productive for simple tasks, like writing a paper or surfing the web. I use a mac because it's a lot more logical, reliable, and easier to work with. I'm sure you could use a PC to do exactly the same things I do on a mac, it would just take a lot more time.

[Sylvanus]

That's like saying that black people are only good for running.

Yes, Macs are used more than PCs for video/music editing, but they are also a lot more productive for simple tasks, like writing a paper or surfing the web. I use a mac because it's a lot more logical, reliable, and easier to work with. I'm sure you could use a PC to do exactly the same things I do on a mac, it would just take a lot more time.

I mentioned that because that's what they tout in their commercials. Microsoft Office Suite has several excellent programs that have tons of functions that work really well with each other. Writing a simple paper is very easy in Word. Where most people have issues is that there are so many functions, that it does take some getting used to to learn them all. Macs are less complicated, but they sacrifice functionality.

[gzeus]

Kind of an invitation thread for argument. Never tried Mac for my personal computer, never had any need to. I am a systems engineer, so I should know my stuff.

PC over Mac as parts are more easily interchanged and are cheaper and easier to find.

In terms of OS...

Installed all kinds of OS there is in the world. I liked Ubuntu 7.10 the best up till now, however it is around a year or so away from beating anything XP has to offer in terms of non-frustration. When they fix the hardware compatibility issues, driver issues and streamline partitioning upon installation they will win over MS. Linux rock in terms of security (opens services only as needed compared to Win which constatly runs uneeded services which are a "an albino in Afrika" threat).

For my own desktop I use every day nothing beats old Win XP.

[lain]

I have pc's running both windows and linux, but im definitely going for mac next time ill upgrade.

[Vortex]

I'm a Gamer, so... Windows XP FTW. I pray DX10 will get a proper release on XP before the industry switches to it and forces everyone onto vista. Its not a *bad* OS (once UAC is killed)... its just a gluttonous one.

I'd run Ubuntu if I didn't game. iproducts make me gag. Apple stopped being an admirable company once they switched to ipod spam, and all Mac machines are just PCs at three times the cost for a platform with no real world performance gains, no enhanced security, and nothing to run on it.

[xhaan]

I'm a Gamer, so... Windows XP FTW. I pray DX10 will get a proper release on XP before the industry switches to it and forces everyone onto vista. Its not a *bad* OS (once UAC is killed)... its just a gluttonous one.

I'd run Ubuntu if I didn't game. iproducts make me gag. Apple stopped being an admirable company once they switched to ipod spam, and all Mac machines are just PCs at three times the cost for a platform with no real world performance gains, no enhanced security, and nothing to run on it.

Yeah, XP is not 'bad' but it's not 'good' either, IMO.

It's like the difference between a cheap, automatic economy car, and a highly tuned, manual, brainchild high performance car. :p

Except, ironically, one costs less. And it isn't the cheap one. :laugh:

[truefusion]

After getting into the Linux world, i fell in love with Linux. (I use Kubuntu.) The only reason i would keep Windows is to run software on it that can't be runned on Linux. However, i would like these things to be ported over to Linux. Unfortunately, this will, if any, take years upon years to happen. For if companies realize that people are sticking to one system for one specific task, then what's the point in building for other OSs? But i hear that COD4 can run through WINE. The only other programs i use is FL Studio and iTunes, and these both run through WINE. So perhaps i can get rid of Windows altogether. :D

[HackerX]

iTunes, and these both run through WINE.

Why on earth would you run itunes on linux? Amarok is your friend. It will even love you the morning after.

[truefusion]

Why on earth would you run itunes on linux? Amarok is your friend. It will even love you the morning after.
Don't get me wrong, Amarok is my favorite Music player in Linux. I especially love the ShoutCast and Magnatune streams. But i would rather just stick to iTunes for purchasing my music than signing up on some random website to purchase music. But that's just me. ;D

[logos]

I run Windows 3.11. It's got EVERYTHING.
I can use TrueType Fonts (I've got 12 of 'em!!!)
I can play l33t games like minesweeper OR hearts
I can browse the internet like so fast with my 33.8 modem

I haven't been able to patch it in about six years, but that's okay I am hacker proof, unlike all you suckers who bought into windows 95. HA HA IN UR FACES!

[Over]

I hate macs.

For a reason.

[1OFMANY]

I haven't been able to patch it in about six years, but that's okay I am hacker proof, unlike all you suckers who bought into windows 95. HA HA IN UR FACES!


LOL

[Developer]

I use Macs, because I like the style - design matters. And because they do what they are supposed to do, without problems.

[terencec]

I used Mac 10 years ago when I was in college and loved it. It was just simple to use, the graphics was nice. It was very stable (10 years ago.) I did not see a Mac crash personally but have seen blue screen on PC so often. I thought Mac OS was better than PC but I bought PC because many software only runs on PC. It does not matter too much now because of virtualization.

Now, I run window 2000, XP, Linux Redhat. I would like to buy a Mac (tablet) later.

[jdc127]

Mac all the way. I used to think the opposite, but once I learned Mac there is no going back...

[Hdier]

I would not be able to choose one. For work/school, Mac's are way better, though for a 'relaxation' computer, I would choose windows.

Note that I did not say a gaming computer.

Also, I know this is going back a bit but, when MichaelH posted why he liked Mac's I just have to point this out:

I have yet to see anything even close to iTunes for usable music management.

WINDOWS CAN USE ITUNES TOO!!!

[Vortex]

itunes is an unwieldy, intrusive, DRM filled monstrosity. Its not necessary to buy music, its not necessary to talk to ipods. Its terrible from every objective standpoint.

Why Do you say Macs are "way better' Hdier? Remember - the hardware is exactly the same, and modern productivity software can be run on my old PII....

[AgentofGaming]

I need my computer to perform well and run a wide variety of software (Computer Games).
Despite what I tell my parents it's a gaming computer :rolleyes:

[Hdier]

itunes is an unwieldy, intrusive, DRM filled monstrosity. Its not necessary to buy music, its not necessary to talk to ipods. Its terrible from every objective standpoint.

Why Do you say Macs are "way better' Hdier? Remember - the hardware is exactly the same, and modern productivity software can be run on my old PII....

Macs (better for school/work)- I say this because I have found them to be more user-friendly, in terms of doing things with the Microsoft applications (word, excel, etc.).

Windows (better for relaxation)- Other than the fact that it runs most games, the way windows is set up (start bar, control panel, etc.) I have found to be much better when I'm at home on my computer surfing the 'net or whatever.

[Wapiti]

I have atleast 3 systems currently running windows and 2 systems running linux (fedora core). I have access to a couple Mac G5's at work and am forced to work on them against my will - they do not seem as intuituve to me as I was led to believe they would be, in fact I found them to be slightly counter intuitive for what I needed to do with them. The deskop itself on the G5's I found to be remarkably close to some of the Linux desktops I've seen which are free, I definately could not justify spending the money for them.

[the natural]

Macs are too costly for me though I have to give them credit for giving Windows some competition, I don't like monopolies. The Mac people are diabolically calculating in their advertising though, notice whenever a character in a movie or tv show uses a computer it's almost always a Mac?

[Hdier]

Actually, I've noticed Dell's and HP's mostly. Don't remember which movies much, except National Treasure, so I can't give you specific references.

However, I have noticed that schools always use Mac's.

[the natural]

I've seen it in sitcoms that tend to have a younger audience in the style of "Friends."

Schools too? They are really targeting the next generation :rolleyes:

[DeadSpace]

I run linux (PCLinuxOS) and XP pro, as has been mentioned PC's are cheaper, and friendlier everything software related, If you can't find a windows app to do what you want, you can find a *nix app that will. What do you need a Mac for? video/music editing, it's their niche, they do it fast...but if speed isn't an issue, win or *nix can do the same thing. That leaves Mac's as one thing only...a status symbol. And a way to be 'different'.

[BlueTopaz]

Ironically enough Vista has the least amount of security flaws out of any consumer OS today.

And it's slower than you know what through a sieve because of it.:rolleyes:
Oh, I'm glad there is something good about Vista.

A Patch, a patch, my kingdom for a patch----- but when????

My laptop with XP was fine
then I got a MacBook:thumbsup:
I got a new PC for Christmas with VISTA:yuck:
It's killing me.

[Hdier]

I've seen it in sitcoms that tend to have a younger audience in the style of "Friends."

Schools too? They are really targeting the next generation :rolleyes:


You just made me realize how much they've been attempting to manipulate me...I guess I didn't spot it because it started when I was in third grade or so, back before when I was incredibly naive with youth (I may be fifteen, but I am definitely not young mentally).

Also, I just figured out how to do pretty much everything on a PC that I can on a Mac, so it's not as much of a sacrifice (in fact, it's a gain).

[Caramel]

(linux/unix need not apply)

Amazing how many people just ignore this and mention it anyway. =)

[Bojangles]

Facts about computers:


Windows PCs are struggling with its many problems
Macs are living in denial


Well said.





Bojangles added to this post, 2 minutes and 43 seconds later...

Apple is a great marketing firm and an OK computer company.





Bojangles added to this post, 4 minutes and 18 seconds later...

Oh and... When comparing Win and Mac, one should make sure they aren't comparing a $500 Dell laptop with a $1999 MacBook pro. Mac people tend to do that.

[BlueTopaz]

Oh and... When comparing Win and Mac, one should make sure they aren't comparing a $500 Dell laptop with a $1999 MacBook pro. Mac people tend to do that.

Hmmm, good point.

[HackerX]

Ha, that reminds me:
You might have seen this image recently in the Mac vs PC Comparisons showing how clean and "sexy" the Mac is:
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I came across this modified version that made me laugh:
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[Vortex]

Wait wait wait wait....

People are spending $1,100 on a system that comes with an 8300 GS?

Good god, I can't stop laughing. Premade systems are made of so much fail.

[burazekun]

Alright, my two cents.

Mac's are effecient machines, but not my slice of cake. I like more control and more options. Thus I have a PC I built myself using parts I bought online and a Windows XP that doesn't look like windows anymore. However I love the fact my Windows bar is located on the top... reminds me of my Mac days in school. And it's effecient and stays out of the way there.

[Antares]

I go for the speed and the graphic quality actually. Don't really care about anything else, but I do have a problem with Microsoft Word. It's too... Boring. I mean, great program and all, but the interface could be better. I like the interface of Vista just as much as I like the Mac interface, and Vista, for all its faults, can be visually stunning. I'm not using Vista as of now; my dad is convinced that it'd be worse than XP, but I'm using Windows X's VTP which makes the XP look like Mac, but in reality its still the older OS. I also love the themes that people make online for Vista. I've been downloading a great deal of skins these days... *sigh* they're so beautiful.

On the speed issue, which is faster? I've hardly used the Mac so I'm not that familiar.

[schmidt]

Just an update on that:

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Ironically enough Vista has the least amount of security flaws out of any consumer OS today.

The big difference being that MS can decide when to publish flaws and choose to withhold information, compared to most Open Source companies who strive for transparency on bug reporting.

And for the Windows vs Mac OS X in general. If you are a power user, you will enjoy mac os x. All the scripting languages you may want, a compiler at hand. A real terminal, with a real shell. But also simplicity (install an application? drag it to the application dir, that's it).

Personally? Linux with a tiled window manager and alot of terminals :)

[Vortex]

Camel -

Theres a common misconception that Mac OSX is a "faster" operating system that windows. Thats not really true. At the end of the day, your execution time for process X will come down to your hardware, your operating system, background tasks, the process your executing to begin with...

A cut down version of XP is fast. Like, really fast. It also takes a lot of skill to go in and cut it down, but windows does tend to reward power users in that way. Mac OSX is definitely more memory efficient (esp. compared to vista), but in any cross-platform app (so you can get accurate comparisons) your actual "speed" difference will be trivial and in no way dependent on the OS.

Its one of the reasons that macs are completely redundant - they don't actually have the efficiency gains they're supposedly known for.

Oh, and linux will be "faster" than either, but thats a totally different can of worms TBQH.

And how dare you dis the DOS! Its real I tell you! Real! ::affectionately pets cmd.exe :: ^^

[HackerX]

The big difference being that MS can decide when to publish flaws and choose to withhold information, compared to most Open Source companies who strive for transparency on bug reporting.


Apple make MS look like saints in this regard.

[ElstonGunn]

I have yet to see anything even close to iTunes for usable music management.

So a shelf with a bunch of CDs on it is out of the question? Maybe I'd see the appeal of iTunes a little better if I owned an iPod. (Hey, at least I'm not regressing to vinyls.... although they are better.)

For what I do with my computer, I'm sure either a PC or a Mac would work. I just use it for the internet and Microsoft office. I think I might have an old game on here somewhere, too. But, a couple of graphics classes in college notwithstanding, I've only and always used PCs, so I'll just go with the devil I know.


So I guess basically, my point here is that I'm kind of a Luddite.

[Vortex]

Oh gawd. I missed that quote x.x

itunes is an abomination. From start to finish, design to execution, it is a gluttonous, poorly designed program rife with unfriendly menus, bad UI, unusually persistent DRM schemes and a memory hog. Seriously, it'd be a toss up between itunes and realplayer for worst music player ever. The only real difference between them is the "Apple Cult" effect that made all their products magically popular.

[schmidt]

Apple make MS look like saints in this regard.

And any Linux Distributor makes makes them both look like devils.

[Santana28]

proud owner of two power mac G4s and one brand new iMac G5 24" flatscreen... ooh, baby, i love them all.

i am an apple geek, hardcore. style AND functionality...ease of use... and its just so damned pretty to look at. its about as superficial as i get, but i love it!

::hugs monitor::

[ShaiGar]

*Kicks the Internet*

[Haphazard]

I have a MacBook.

Both Microsoft and Mac are evil, really. I just really like the macbook's keyboard.

[BadMojo]

What the hell is an Abacus if I might ask?

[Sylvanus]

What the hell is an Abacus if I might ask?

:laugh:

[Haphazard]

What the hell is an Abacus if I might ask?

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[apresmoimelle]

Give me a Mac and take away this Windows Vista.
PLEASE. I'm actually getting a MacBook on Friday. I cannot stand using this HP Laptop anymore.





apresmoimelle added to this post, 1 minutes and 31 seconds later...

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Hehe, I still have a red one I used to play around with when I was younger.
*sighs* So vintage.

[Sylvanus]

From what I hear, the Japanese can actually use an abacus faster than a calculator, that could just be an urban myth though. BadMojo, in case you're still wondering (not sure if you were joking or not), an abacus is a centuries old (millenia?) version of a calculator. It's like counting on your fingers except you can do a lot more with it, like multiplication and division.

[ShaiGar]

Make that Vista Laptop a Linux Laptop.

[MichaelH]

Give me a Mac and take away this Windows Vista.
PLEASE. I'm actually getting a MacBook on Friday. I cannot stand using this HP Laptop anymore.


What's funny is that I'm hearing this from a lot of people. Students in class tried Vista and went back to XP. One of my music-loving friends is moving to a Mac because the music software works more smoothly. (He's technically competent, so it's not a lack of hardware or needing software knowledge.)

Microsoft is suddenly facing some real competition in the desktop space. It'll be interesting to see how things look by the time they release the next Windows.

[Haphazard]

From what I hear, the Japanese can actually use an abacus faster than a calculator, that could just be an urban myth though. BadMojo, in case you're still wondering (not sure if you were joking or not), an abacus is a centuries old (millenia?) version of a calculator. It's like counting on your fingers except you can do a lot more with it, like multiplication and division.

I can't say for all but at a Japanese immersion class I've been to there was one woman (I think she was one of the cooks?) who worked an abacus at lightning-fast speeds. Then again, that was only one woman.

[DeadSpace]

Abacus example here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Watched a documentary on this some time ago, nothing short of amazing.
I'll stick with a PC though, no games on an abacus...and graphics would be horribly pixilated.

[PRBori]

Hmm.. I use Windows, but have used LINUX before. Unfortunatedly lack of compatibility with many of the applications I need for my type of work keep me in a Windows environment.:rolleyes:

I do however do not like VISTA, I use Windows XP Professional instead until a more steady OS comes from Microsoft and more drivers work with the new 64bit configuration. I'll say about 10% of my equipment is not VISTA compatible and I'm not planning to keep expending more money on them.

[Nausved]

If you are a power user, you will enjoy mac os x.

Precisely why I use a Mac rather than a Windows machine. I am a power user and a speed demon.

I'm not interested in wizards and paperclips and viruses; I'm interested in getting from Point A to Point B as efficiently and effectively as possible. My computer must be a swift and versatile tool, not a tinker toy.

Some people accuse me of preferring Macs for the eyecandy, but I honestly couldn't care. I was just as voracious a Mac user when they were ugly beige boxes in the 80s and 90s.

[DeadSpace]

Precisely why I use a Mac rather than a Windows machine. I am a power user and a speed demon.

I'm not interested in wizards and paperclips and viruses; I'm interested in getting from Point A to Point B as efficiently and effectively as possible. My computer must be a swift and versatile tool, not a tinker toy.

Some people accuse me of preferring Macs for the eyecandy, but I honestly couldn't care. I was just as voracious a Mac user when they were ugly beige boxes in the 80s and 90s.

Tinkertoy? Hardly, i run more apps, games, software in general then a mac most likely even has >.>. As for Stability, XP pro has been installed for over 2 years, been through 3 video card upgrades, and hasn't hiccuped once, no virii either btw. Open Office = no paper clips. And i can upgrade my hardware whenever i want, options to use a wide variety of OS's. That's versatility, absolute widest range of software and hardware configs of any machine = PC.

[Nausved]

Theres a common misconception that Mac OSX is a "faster" operating system that windows. Thats not really true. At the end of the day, your execution time for process X will come down to your hardware, your operating system, background tasks, the process your executing to begin with...

You're forgetting clunky GUI design. Windows has a remarkable amount of what they call User Interface Friction, and that inhibits productivity on the user end, regardless of hardware configuration.

Some of these issues (like Fitt's Law (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.'_law)) are covered in this casual assessment (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) and in this research study (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).





Nausved added to this post, 79 minutes and 20 seconds later...

Hardly, i run more apps, games, software in general then a mac most likely even has >.>.

Haha, that would be very impressive if it were anywhere close to truth. :)

Open Office = no paper clips.

Good choice on Open Office. That's what I use, too.

And i can upgrade my hardware whenever i want

That's great, but how is that in opposition to a comparable Mac? I can upgrade my hardware, too (and, no, I'm not just referring to RAM and hard drives).

That's versatility, absolute widest range of software and hardware configs of any machine = PC.

I like PCs just fine, but I see Windows as a non-versatile tinker toy because there are so many unnecessary loops I have to jump through to perform even very simple tasks. It curbs productivity and ultimately limits functionality. If you want examples, here are a few of my Windows pet peeves:

-Terrible use of screen real estate, especially in windows and the start menu. (The classic interface isn't as bad, but it's still less than ideal.)

-Installation wizards. (Not only annoying, but a limitation on customized installations.)

-Alert balloons. (Annoying to disable.)

-Poor mouse responsiveness and poor adherence to Fitt's Law.

-Hidden folder contents that must be un-hidden.

-Some seeming inconsistencies in regards to invisible files.

-Menu latency.

-The inability to make heads or tails of files that don't have an extension in the name. (This means I have to guess and test the file type, which is only compounded by ample warnings each time I try a different extension.)

-Jumbled start menu that is unnecessarily difficult to customize.

-Open applications fill up the whole screen by default, and they're generally a pain to navigate.

-Little access to the "inner workings" of the operating system, and yet so many Windows functions are inaccessible via the GUI.

-Too many warnings when I try to perform certain operations, like shut down.

[DeadSpace]

Haha, that would be very impressive if it were anywhere close to truth. :)

Close to the truth? would not lie to make a point. perhaps a poor choice of words, i do not run them all at once if that's how you interpreted it. i have installed/uninstalled more software and of more kinds, many of which a mac can't even run >.>

Good choice on Open Office. That's what I use, too.



That's great, but how is that in opposition to a comparable Mac? I can upgrade my hardware, too (and, no, I'm not just referring to RAM and hard drives).

you have fewer choices

I like PCs just fine, but I see Windows as a non-versatile tinker toy because there are so many unnecessary loops I have to jump through to perform even very simple tasks. It curbs productivity and ultimately limits functionality. If you want examples, here are a few of my Windows pet peeves:

-Terrible use of screen real estate, especially in windows and the start menu. (The classic interface isn't as bad, but it's still less than ideal.)

You get used to it, and toolbars/customisation options...if you take the time...

-Installation wizards. (Not only annoying, but a limitation on customized installations.)

limited? how? you choose where, if i'm installing software...only thing i care about is if it works and where it goes. If referring to autostart software/drivers...3rd party tool~~>Teatimer

-Alert balloons. (Annoying to disable.)

sorry, no, stop one service, no more pop ups, security center? same deal, kill it. auto updates? 2 services...pretty easy

-Poor mouse responsiveness and poor adherence to Fitt's Law.

never had a problem with mouse responsiveness, i game and do cg(3D) work, both require an accurate and responsive mouse. As to Fitt's law...that implies that my gui is stock, it isn't, and works extremely well for me. Fast, responsive, usable.

-Hidden folder contents that must be un-hidden.
not difficult

-Some seeming inconsistencies in regards to invisible files.
don't see how that's relevent...anything can be unhidden, even superhidden
-Menu latency.
perhaps on a slow machine >.> or old one

-The inability to make heads or tails of files that don't have an extension in the name. (This means I have to guess and test the file type, which is only compounded by ample warnings each time I try a different extension.)

all files have an extension...my computer~~>tools~~>folder options~~>view~~>untick hide extensions,
if you're d/l files that don't have an extension...you're shopping at some very odd places...i torrent and emule, hit sourceforge and half a dozen other file sites, once in 10000 might i get a file with no extension.

-Jumbled start menu that is unnecessarily difficult to customize.
toolbars, and external apps, i won't defend the start menu, it's a beast...why i don't use it

-Open applications fill up the whole screen by default, and they're generally a pain to navigate.

no, some 'user friendly' apps do that...the popular ones, most all of mine remember last window position and size

-Little access to the "inner workings" of the operating system, and yet so many Windows functions are inaccessible via the GUI.

wrong, mayhap you've only tried xp home? Pro i have full access to everything, even to enabling/disabling system level drivers. gpedit, devmgmt (show hidden devices) Full control

-Too many warnings when I try to perform certain operations, like shut down.

i have zero warnings...i tell it to restart, it does...


Seems your problem is with windows rather than PC's themselves, XP, even Pro requires tweaking...considering how old it is... >.> and how still capable it is...small price to pay for the sheer flexibility it offers. No other operating system has the software versatility of XP, like or hate it...doesn't change that fact. Tweaked, it becomes a fast, responsive OS, easy to work with...out of the box, fresh install...it's a royal pain in the a$$.
2+ years of tweaking this OS...so my conclusions are somewhat skewed >.> i'll admit that.
edit: irfanview, handy for figuring out what a file might be, includes a hex viewer

[Nausved]

Close to the truth? would not lie to make a point. perhaps a poor choice of words, i do not run them all at once if that's how you interpreted it. i have installed/uninstalled more software and of more kinds, many of which a mac can't even run >.>

I suspect you are greatly underestimating the volume of software available to the Mac. With the exception of non-profit and unpopular software, virtually everything available for Windows is also natively available for Mac. There is also a great deal of software out there that is available exclusively to the Mac or exclusively to Unix-based operating systems (though probably not as much as there is available exclusively to Windows or to non-Macs).

So while it is possible to have more software for your Windows than there is software available to the Mac, I am extremely skeptical that you specifically (nor any other individual, aside from the odd collector) have so many thousands of software titles.

never had a problem with mouse responsiveness, i game and do cg(3D) work, both require an accurate and responsive mouse. As to Fitt's law...that implies that my gui is stock, it isn't, and works extremely well for me. Fast, responsive, usable.

perhaps on a slow machine >.> or old one

Hardware definitely complicates menu lag and poor mouse response, but at its heart it's a software problem. The Pfeiffer Report (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) goes into this. (I assume the report is based on "stock" Mac and PC settings, since it is intended for businesses and corporations.)

all files have an extension...my computer~~>tools~~>folder options~~>view~~>untick hide extensions,
if you're d/l files that don't have an extension...you're shopping at some very odd places...i torrent and emule, hit sourceforge and half a dozen other file sites, once in 10000 might i get a file with no extension.

Not all files have extensions. I use a Mac at home, and Macs do not require extensions; they can detect what file type something is, regardless of whether or not there's a ".xxx" tagged on to the end.

It is a minor thing, really—until you decide to transfer files from a Mac to a Windows machine, and you can't remember their file types. This is a fairly common problem for Windows-based businesses that have Mac-using customers, I understand. It's also a fairly common problem for me. :embarassed:

wrong, mayhap you've only tried xp home? Pro i have full access to everything, even to enabling/disabling system level drivers. gpedit, devmgmt (show hidden devices) Full control

I must admit that I'm not familiar with XP Pro. Does it have anything like a command shell found in Unix-based operating systems, where you can poke around in the system directly?

I really appreciate your other suggestions, and I'll probably employ quite a few of them in the future. However, I still strongly prefer OS X. It works much more efficiently than anything else I've tried, even without any tweaking.

[DeadSpace]

I must admit that I'm not familiar with XP Pro. Does it have anything like a command shell found in Unix-based operating systems, where you can poke around in the system directly?

.

No it doesn't, boot to command prompt is the closest you can get. The 2 i mentioned earlier(gpedit, devmgmt.msc), along with regedit, services.msc and msconfig, can let you completely alter every parameter, add debugging tools...and you could fiddle around enough and make it unbootable. For serious playing around, process explorer is invaluable, lets you kill individual threads within a process, without killing the process. (dll's, exe's and such)

Hardware definitely complicates menu lag and poor mouse response, but at its heart it's a software problem. The Pfeiffer Report goes into this. (I assume the report is based on "stock" Mac and PC settings, since it is intended for businesses and corporations.)

Trimming the fat from XP solves alot of that, stock settings it takes too much in system resources, graphic overhead inefficient (bmp's are your enemies), fading menus...all the extra garbage. The above tools let you lean it down, about 50% or more speed improvement over stock.

It can't run well stock, slow, laggy...some of that is actually built in (menu delay timer in reg settings). Tweaked, it's a powerhouse. Pro anyway. Never used home, or media center edition so no clue what they can be tweaked to do. Vista doesn't like my hardware...probably a blessing. XP64 is lightning...but still lacks drivers and hence flexibility of pro. And...i'm comfortable with it ;D.

Macs are too expensive vs what they do, bottom line for me, for the price of a mac i can build a system that can run tweaked xp and apps faster than the mac.
Edit: i like tweaking though...dunno what i'd do with myself if i couldn't:scared:

[Vortex]

Excepting desktop icon spam, there is no graphical overhead to windows XP. It will run just fine on any GPU out there. Don't confuse graphical delay on old systems with legitimate delay due to the terrible systems old/bad GPUs are put into. Windows XP Pro has an overhead of around 64-128MB, configuration depending. On any system built within the past 6 years, this is negligible overhead.

OSX has weird mouse interpretation. It almost feels like acceleration to me, or drag. Compared to a high quality optical mouse (laser have accuracy problems), going to OSX feels like your drugged. That is assuming, of course, your not using a lol-inducing Apple mouse. Seriously, 2 buttons aren't hard to do (mention the mighty mouse at your own peril).

Media center is XP Pro with extra settings to work with video capture cards. XP Home is XP Pro without the administrative power and some of the security options. XP64 is the same as XP Pro, but 64bit. Faster if you can find native 64bit apps (good luck, but amazing when you do).

Apple machines are customizable, sure. If you buy the mac-approved/compatible products. Your upgrade path is ludicrously short. A custom built PC (not even windows. Linux are 'pcs" too) is not only several times cheaper, but will have an entire industry worth of upgrade potential (and this potential isn't with the massive increase in cost apple will stick onto it either).

UI design? Modern interface design is nearly identical across windows, OSX, and most linux variants. The only time you'd ever stumble in windows is trying to do something weird, and its in a buried submenu. You'll note this problem will be present in all UI design, as rarely used functions will not be easy to get to (from windows to mac to adobe to openoffice, this is always true). Windows at least doesn't down the interface like OSX does. Trying to change key settings in it is maddening how far removed they are.


Installation wizards. (Not only annoying, but a limitation on customized installations.)

Are designed by the company who wrote the program. For the vast majority of programs, there isn't much to configure in terms of instalation. You pick/make the directory, and install the files (basically, unpack/extract them and make any registry changes necessary). This will be the same as linux or OSX; until your in the program, theres nothing to configure.

-Alert balloons. (Annoying to disable.)

No they're not. Yay, assertions.


-Poor mouse responsiveness and poor adherence to Fitt's Law.

Actually, mouse behavior is way worse on Macs.


Hidden folder contents that must be un-hidden.

The first time you run the OS. The link to access the folder is right there. It happens once. Seriously, rediculous claim. All OS's have warnings, notices, or other shenanigans the first time their run.


Some seeming inconsistencies in regards to invisible files.

Not really... There is no such thing as "invisible" files. "Hidden" files are a joke, nobody says otherwise. Some core system files are not normally displayed, but they also are impossible to manipulate for the average user anyways. If you have the skill to be dealing with them, you have the skill to show them, so its a non-issue.


Menu latency.

There is none. Another assertion.


The inability to make heads or tails of files that don't have an extension in the name. (This means I have to guess and test the file type, which is only compounded by ample warnings each time I try a different extension.)

It asks you what should open it. If OSX encounters a file it can't recognize, I'm sure it would do the same thing. Why the hell are you encountering so many files without an extension? There are programs that will detect file type, and you could always just open it in a hex editor if you really needed to. Also, its not really hard to "guess". A media file gets saved, but you screw up and delete the file extension. How many media file types are out there? Very few.


Jumbled start menu that is unnecessarily difficult to customize.

I won't agree its jumbled, will agree its annoying to change around.


Open applications fill up the whole screen by default, and they're generally a pain to navigate.

This is blatantly wrong. I can rattle off applications that don't behave like this. Navigation issues would be the programs fault, not the OS.


Little access to the "inner workings" of the operating system, and yet so many Windows functions are inaccessible via the GUI.

Very, very wrong.



-Too many warnings when I try to perform certain operations, like shut down.

Another assertion. If your getting warnings when shutting down, its probably along the lines of "do you want to shutdown without saving this data first?". A legitimate question.


Sorry if my formatting is off; posting from a hackintosh and the keyboard layout is screwing with me. I'll check it when I get home.

[Nausved]

OSX has weird mouse interpretation. It almost feels like acceleration to me, or drag. Compared to a high quality optical mouse (laser have accuracy problems), going to OSX feels like your drugged.

I'm not sure what you mean by "acceleration" or "drag". Could you be more specific?

That is assuming, of course, your not using a lol-inducing Apple mouse. Seriously, 2 buttons aren't hard to do (mention the mighty mouse at your own peril).

I don't care for the Apple mouse due to the way it fits in my hand. Instead I use a $6.00 mouse I picked up at a store. It has two buttons, and it works perfectly.

I have not used the Mighty Mouse, so please explain to me how it is not a two-button mouse.

Apple machines are customizable, sure. If you buy the mac-approved/compatible products. Your upgrade path is ludicrously short. A custom built PC (not even windows. Linux are 'pcs" too) is not only several times cheaper, but will have an entire industry worth of upgrade potential (and this potential isn't with the massive increase in cost apple will stick onto it either).

When upgrading a Mac, you do not buy components from Apple. Apple, as far as I'm aware, does not sell components; they only sell software and ready-built computers.

You'd be surprised how many components work with both PCs and Macs, especially now that Macs have Intel chips.

UI design? Modern interface design is nearly identical across windows, OSX, and most linux variants.

"Nearly" being the key word here.

The only time you'd ever stumble in windows is trying to do something weird, and its in a buried submenu. You'll note this problem will be present in all UI design, as rarely used functions will not be easy to get to (from windows to mac to adobe to openoffice, this is always true).

I agree with you that commands buried in submenus are very problematic. They eat away at my productivity faster than anything else. I appreciate commands that are buried in a highly organized manner and that have key shortcuts.

But I don't agree that this is the only case where one will stumble in Windows. It's certainly the biggest hurdle, though.

Windows at least doesn't down the interface like OSX does. Trying to change key settings in it is maddening how far removed they are.

What do you mean by "downing the interface"? I'm not very familiar with the jargon, I'm afraid.

Changing key settings IS annoying with a Mac. So is typing symbols like °, ∞, ÷, etc. on Windows. I do the latter much more than I do the former.

Are designed by the company who wrote the program. For the vast majority of programs, there isn't much to configure in terms of instalation. You pick/make the directory, and install the files (basically, unpack/extract them and make any registry changes necessary). This will be the same as linux or OSX; until your in the program, theres nothing to configure.

Wizards are designed by the software programmer, but they should not be necessary at all in most instances. It is nice to be able to drag an application—and any components with it—directly where you want them installed. That's not to say that Mac OS X totally lacks installation wizards, but they're only used for the more complex installations.


-Alert balloons. (Annoying to disable.)
No they're not. Yay, assertions.

Remember, I'm a power user. I'm here to do whatever it is I need to do quickly and efficiently as possible. Having to disable alerts every time I use a public PC is annoying.

Actually, mouse behavior is way worse on Macs.

Actually, no it's not. Please refer to my link to the Pfeiffer report.

The first time you run the OS. The link to access the folder is right there. It happens once. Seriously, rediculous claim. All OS's have warnings, notices, or other shenanigans the first time their run.

Some have more warnings than others, and some warnings are more legitimate than others. I do not appreciate having a folder's contents hidden from me every time I use a public PC.

Not really... There is no such thing as "invisible" files. "Hidden" files are a joke, nobody says otherwise. Some core system files are not normally displayed, but they also are impossible to manipulate for the average user anyways. If you have the skill to be dealing with them, you have the skill to show them, so its a non-issue.

I don't mind certain files being "hidden" (AKA "invisible", meaning not visible to the eye). I only need to access them on rare occasions, and almost never when I'm using a PC. I do hate inconsistencies, however.

I imagine this is a problem caused by the way that certain programs handle files, but it seems that the operating system's settings should take precedence—especially when that program is no longer running.


Menu latency.
There is none. Another assertion.

Please refer to the reports I provided earlier.

It asks you what should open it. If OSX encounters a file it can't recognize, I'm sure it would do the same thing. Why the hell are you encountering so many files without an extension?

Usually it's because they're files that I make, that I rename, or that I obtain from another Mac user. It doesn't always occur to me to give them an extension because it is a non-issue—at least until Windows comes into the picture.

There are programs that will detect file type, and you could always just open it in a hex editor if you really needed to.

I could, but why should I have to? Windows should be able to detect file types without the need for extraneous software and without any added effort on my part. I don't like detours.

Also, its not really hard to "guess". A media file gets saved, but you screw up and delete the file extension. How many media file types are out there? Very few.

It's not hard to guess until you have a large stack of such files. And there are many, many more media file types than I care to guess at—especially with Windows warning me every time I do. You should give it a try some time.

This is blatantly wrong. I can rattle off applications that don't behave like this. Navigation issues would be the programs fault, not the OS.

Does that mean that Windows programs are generally written more poorly than Macintosh programs?

Little access to the "inner workings" of the operating system, and yet so many Windows functions are inaccessible via the GUI.
Very, very wrong.

I guess I've just been spoiled by the UNIX command shell.

Another assertion. If your getting warnings when shutting down, its probably along the lines of "do you want to shutdown without saving this data first?". A legitimate question.

Yes, that is a legitimate question. But asking if I would rather log out—even though I specifically asked to shut down—is not.

Sorry if my formatting is off; posting from a hackintosh and the keyboard layout is screwing with me. I'll check it when I get home.

Your formatting seems fine to me. How is that hackintosh, by the way? I've never used one, but I find them intriguing.

[Vortex]

The hackintosh was a friends (another power user, though he has an Apple fetish :P ). It amuses me greatly that the switch to Intel also completely invalidated their actual hardware package, given the ease that hackintoshes are now being made. Technically, I suppose everything is a PC now.

Also, I didn't realize you were referring to public PCs. Yea, thats a pain. Unustomized windows is a PITA. Macs I'd agree are better in this area. They are sterile, but not as annoying.


I have not used the Mighty Mouse, so please explain to me how it is not a two-button mouse.


Its the way apple marketed it. A $50+ mouse for a run of the mills poor resolution optical mouse. Technically, theres nothing wrong with it, besides the fact Apple managed to somehow claim in their press releases that they were the sole inventor of "two buttons", and that it would "revolutionize" mice. Apple pisses me off royally for this reason: their products can actually be pretty good on occasion, but their marketing (and the publics acceptance of it) drives me up a wall.

I'm not sure what you mean by "acceleration" or "drag". Could you be more specific?

I.. Can't. I've never been able to figure out exactly what was wrong with the way OSX interpreted mouse movements. I believe they have some form of acceleration applied to them in the OS. You'd have to spend a lot of time with a great mouse on Windows/Linux to notice, but once you do, its actually painful. It feels very unresponsive, but thats never quite it. I lack the vocabulary to describe it.


When upgrading a Mac, you do not buy components from Apple. Apple, as far as I'm aware, does not sell components; they only sell software and ready-built computers.

Technically, those are then hackintoshes, as Apple doesn't release their OS standalone. Once you buy into the multi-fold more expensive platform though, I'll agree it'll work pending drivers existing for it (a real problem for some equipment).


What do you mean by "downing the interface"? I'm not very familiar with the jargon, I'm afraid.

Excuse me, that was supposed to be "dumbing down". If windows interfaces are "clunky" (I maintain thats subjective/time on platform dependent), OSX interfaces hide useful things from you. They replace shineyness with functionality.

Wizards are designed by the software programmer, but they should not be necessary at all in most instances. It is nice to be able to drag an application—and any components with it—directly where you want them installed. That's not to say that Mac OS X totally lacks installation wizards, but they're only used for the more complex installations.


You can run some programs without installing them on windows. Really, the problem here is the existence of the registry (OSX uses a completely different file tracking system). Hopefully windows 7 will complete their base-code rewrite and do away with it once and for all.


I imagine this is a problem caused by the way that certain programs handle files, but it seems that the operating system's settings should take precedence—especially when that program is no longer running.

I was specifically referring to the option to hide "critical windows system files", which hides some things like boot.ini. It has nothing to do with third party applications.



I could, but why should I have to? Windows should be able to detect file types without the need for extraneous software and without any added effort on my part. I don't like detours.

I'm not denying it'd be convenient, only that its also rather frivolous. File type extensions aren't a "nicety", they are used everywhere in every OS. I'm honestly at a loss what could cause you to lose so many extensions as that without data corruption.

I *have* lost filetypes before (always my fault in incorrectly renaming it through my download manager). Right Click -> open with -> VLC. Yay. Or I rename it .mkv, double click. Rename it .wma, double click. It would take at most a minute for me to track it down, and its an improbable situation to begin with.


But asking if I would rather log out—even though I specifically asked to shut down—is not.

??? I have no idea how you'd get that. It might be part of the public PCs you seem to be referencing so much and not default behavior.


I also finally had time to read those reports. Sorry, but they are both bunk. The first is just whatever the person thinks, and windows wins a fair amount. On most they are dead tied, and on some OSX got a ridiculous win (pasting a folder cluster into an email is a big deal? wut??). *very* subjective, and it hardly supports OSX even with the subjective responses it sometimes put forth.

The other report was even worse. No reporting that I could see on test method, repeatability, or number of test subjects. Its not a scientifically valid test. The mouse accuracy was also specifically annoying to read. Having taken a year of MGD design classes at college (their MGD is part of the Apple cult), I got to perform operations on both. I was always more accurate with my MX518 than the school's generic lab mice, and I *always* had to bump their sensitivity levels (in OSX) to the maximum for me to even begin to feel comfortable.

Linux feels exactly the same to me as windows, and several power users (even my apple-loving hackintosh friend) agrees OSX does something... weird to mouse input signals.