How to solve illegal immigration

[rocksteady]

Just let the dollar continue to plummet! Bush & Co. are really just trying to save us from illegal immigrants!

If you devalue the dollar enough, the economic benefits of working in America disappear, no? I know most immigrants are just working in the U.S to take advantage of the currency difference, and to send money to their home country, where it is more valuable. (i work in a restaurant with 20 of them)

Also, that is the reason many of them don't bother to learn the language, they won't be here that long.

I am not sure what the percentage of immigrants who want to live here, and who just wants the money. I'm sure there are illegal ones of both types.

(hope it wasn't taboo to create this thread after the other one got locked :stunned:)

[Kfbr]

Get the IRS to knock on all the doors of people that employ illegals

Uncle Sam wants his cut ;)

[Lights]

We could always tighten our border control, deport those who aren't at least working toward citizenship, enforce strict penalties on those who are employing them illegally, and create legislation to exploit the demand for jobs across the boulders to our advantage. But that would actually require some common sense, so its probably out of the question.

[Lucid]

Quite frankly, I think that the biggest problem with illegal immigration is what it does to the economy by undercutting wages. What the illegals are being paid are not, generally, living wages. I imagine that it would be incredibly difficult to survive, much less support a family (as many do) on less than minimum wage.

While this hurts our economy and is bad for legal citizens, the people it is really bad for are the illegals, who are being exploited.

Unfortunately, for many people, the illegal immigration issue has become an issue of race. There are Hispanics who think that believing that illegal immigration is bad of our society is racism against Hispanics, and whites who use the illegal immigration issue as an excuse for racism.

However, the issue isn't about race, since there are illegals here from all over the world and of all races (except, of course, the Native Americans.), just as there are citizens of all racial backgrounds. Therefore, making it an issue of race is counter productive.

Those who view it as a racial issue either want to build a wall on the US/Mexico border (which is ridiculous, IMO... how does that stop illegals from places other than Mexico?) or, on the other side of the argument, open the borders and allow illegals to work here for slave wages.

What's ironic about the latter view (and somewhat sad) is that it seeks to allow the exploitation of the very group of people who they are trying to support.

In my opinion, the best way to solve the illegal immigration issue is to fix our immigration and naturalization system, making legalization an achievable and affordable goal for those who want to stay, and making work visas easier to obtain for those who want to come here to work.

We do not live in a free market capitalist system. We have many measures in place to protect the rights and the quality of living of the workers, such as minimum wages, unions, labor laws, etc. Business owners are able to bypass these (somewhat more expensive, but IMO very important) measures by hiring people who have no legal recourse, no labor unions and paying them shit.
Paying everyone a fair wage does mean that we will pay more for things. I think paying a dollar or two more is worth the payment in human rights and dignity, not to mention the longer-term boost to our economy.

I think most people are fine with the idea of people immigrating here from other countries (since most of us are the descendants of immigrants ourselves), just as long as they do it legally.

[Kfbr]

That's why I'm tellin ya, get Uncle Sam to come down on these people that knowingly hire illegals. Slap em with a huge fine and give migrant workers an excuse to get a visa and work legally in the States.

[brewmaster]

I don't really know how to solve the 'problem,' from all the ways I can think of to solve it require some draconian measures.

From an agricultural perspective it creates a real dilemma. I've heard of orchards in the Pac. NW rotting on the trees because of the latest measures to keep illegals from working. Whatever solution is achieved it needs to be fair, and likely, as Lucid said, we need to make it easier for people to either naturalize or work temporarily.

Just as a point of data I have a close Bulgarian friend with a masters degree in my field (and his wife has a masters in sociology). He has to spend a ton of money to stay here, and then there is no guarantee that it will work. My wife has a friend from Poland who has a masters in Ag. econ, who has amazing corporate backing, and was in this country for 10 years on a work visa, but was forced to go to Canada because he couldn't get a green card. These are people with education and the means to pull these things off, and they cannot, so imagine how hard it is for someone who just wants to pick some apples.

[The Ghost Agent]

The most radical and efficient way of getting rid of illegal immigration? Instant death sentence for any those who are caught as an illegal immigrant and to all those involved in sending them across the border. Now of course this sure as hell won't pass through any legislation and there would simply be massive outcries, but it sure as hell would be a hell of an incentive to keep them out. We'd just have to look toward alternative means unfortunately.

The way we're dealing with illegal immigrants right now is ridiculous. Such as simply giving them a free flight back to to Mexico, only for them to try and cross over again. Sorry, but you need to be prosecuted and have your ass hauled off to the crappiest jail possible. I don't understand how any Hispanic or any other ethnicity believe they have some heavenly endowed right to belong in ANY country. You have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, but certainly not in a fashion that runs contrary to the law! If everyone were to disobey and violate the law with full knowledge in order for self benefit, then we should immediately free the Enron, WorldCom, and all other money grubbing executives!

Cruel you say? I say it is just as cruel to allow amnesty for blatant malicious law violators and shafting all the other people doing it in an orderly and legal fashion. Never the less, ranting won't help, what needs to be done is a revamping of the legal and economic system. Here is a couple suggestions.

1) All illegal immigrants and those found conspiring with them will be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Should they be found guilty, they will be forced to work off the cost spent into the legal system. Tax payers should not be forced into paying for your blatant defiance of international law. Not to mention you're not even a U.S. citizen.

2) Securing the border via building a wall is retarded. Won't work as they can just go under, over through, etc. and it'll be way too costly. If anything, I'll support volunteer guards and increase border patrol.

3) Get our social programs and shit together. Hospitals or any institution should NOT be forced to give aid to any illegal immigrant. They're siphoning off resources from the citizens that are paying their hard earned money to PEOPLE BREAKING INTERNATIONAL LAW. What kind of absurdity is this?! Get them off our welfare programs and actually spend money on LEGAL citizens who actually deserve the aid and care. It'll cut costs and strain on our welfare system and become less of an incentive for those who think they can come in for >free< care.

4) Get rid of any IDs, particularly DRIVER'S LICENSE for illegals. What kind of maddening insanity is this?! What kind of message are you trying to send? You can still drive even though you're a international law offender?! Is it just me who thinks this whole shtick is completely out of the bloody-fuck-psychotic?

5) Allow work visas for people across the border who wishes to WORK here. At least have them DOCUMENTED. So if an employer conscientiously decides to hire a worker out of the country, they can go through an application process in which they can either pick or be assigned one at random. This allows the jobs that "no one in the country does" to still be filled by willing workers across the border LEGALLY.

6) Get Mexico's act up together as well. Revise NAFTA or throw it out the window if it's doing more harm than good. We need to help Mexico improve their economy so they have less of an incentive to be smuggling themselves over. How about we start reforming our ridiculous tax system? Rather than giving tax breaks for investments going OUTSIDE of the country and penalizing our domestic businesses, how about we turn that around? And then also create a deal with Mexico so we can start investing in our neighbors rather than the already saturated Chinese and Indian market.

7) Get rid of the insane law where anyone who gives birth in the US automatically becomes a U.S. citizen. I'm sorry, but the does no one else see the insanely massive HOLE in that? You're telling me anyone who drops an egg here will have that kid become a US citizen? It's THAT easy? That needs to go to get rid of the retarded abuse people pull to become a US citizen.

That's about all the suggestions I have in mind at the moment, might write more if more comes along.

[Henry]

Just let the dollar continue to plummet! Bush & Co. are really just trying to save us from illegal immigrants!

If you devalue the dollar enough, the economic benefits of working in America disappear, no? I know most immigrants are just working in the U.S to take advantage of the currency difference, and to send money to their home country, where it is more valuable. (i work in a restaurant with 20 of them)

Also, that is the reason many of them don't bother to learn the language, they won't be here that long.

I am not sure what the percentage of immigrants who want to live here, and who just wants the money. I'm sure there are illegal ones of both types.

(hope it wasn't taboo to create this thread after the other one got locked :stunned:)

Start by enacting federal law that you keep proof of citizenship in your home at all times, and that employer keep record of employee's right to work at the location where the employee works.

Use paramilitary sweeps where necessary in areas where illegals are known to congregate. If documents are not where they are supposed to be, fined 1,000, sent to a confinement center. At center, given chance to contact stated county of birth. If county does not confirm and there's no reasonable way to confirm match of, confiscation of all assets in the US and deportation. Use proceeds from confiscation of assets to finance additional law enforcement.

Build a wall manned by a heavily armed, paramilitary group. Use necessary force to combat inevitable organized crime opposition.

[Tarrick]

The most radical and efficient way of getting rid of illegal immigration? Instant death sentence for any those who are caught as an illegal immigrant and to all those involved in sending them across the border. Now of course this sure as hell won't pass through any legislation and there would simply be massive outcries, but it sure as hell would be a hell of an incentive to keep them out. We'd just have to look toward alternative means unfortunately.


You do realize that's what happens to the lucky people that get caught trying to get into Mexico's southern border. The unlucky ones are sent to prison.

[TheLoneINTJ]

All the measures proposed here in this forum will probably work just fine. Best way to solve illegal immigration: I know its extreme but remove the laws that make it illegal. Open the borders (with restrictions for crime and chronic health problems). Einstein had it right with his support for a world federation government. All countries should, and I think eventually they will, start to drop on these restrictions just like what has been happening with trade of goods and services. The world has been booming from free trade of goods, why not people?

I'm not the best at explaining this, there are going to be holes all over this argument, it would require writing a book because, as we all know, our INTJ abstract thoughts may be clear as day but they can be difficult to explain, so please humor me with this one for a bit. Everyone remember in high school how we studied the British system of Mercantilism? How the British government was trying to get the colonies to 'get in line and follow the law' ("because we are in charge and we say so") but the colonies were off doing their own thing and trading with whoever they pleased, creating a country of "lawbreakers". Its funny how we can look at that now and say, well, duh, of course it was not soposed to be that way. The British put in all of these efforts to try to make the colonies follow this established system but it didn't work and eventually led to a war. I'm not suggesting that war is a risk here but it is limiting of everyone's potential. The colonies separated from Britain and boomed from free trade. The growth was ridiculous.

Take a look at all the help wanted signs that businesses have, everywhere. Our country is still starving for people. I travel all over the place and that thirst for people just doesn't exist and these aren't third world countries that I am comparing. The only reason that businesses hire employees is because they make money in doing so. A business will not hire a single employee if it will not make them money, if they break that fundamental force they die. Putting in all these blocks for people to come here (who end up coming here anyway in a less-than-preferential lawless fashion, similar to the colonies and the merchantilist system) and then trying to prop up wages will just turn us into Europe. And its not that that is completely bad at all but it is limiting of our potential.

Why is it that all of our manufacturing is gone or leaving? (not saying that that is bad, or that it is good to have it, just that that is the way it is) It's because can't make manufacturing, or any other kind of job, be here. This has even been happening with technology jobs. Business just moves to where it can thrive best, all industries/companies do that, its for survival. And the world is becomming incresingly so at a very fast pace. We are not going to turn into India if we fill up with Indians or Mexico if we fill up with Mexicans. We have laws and regulations that stop sweat shops and, ultimately, people here can just leave a job and find better if they are unhappy with what they have now. Look at the difference between Havana and Miami, Tiajuana and San Diego.

I still advocate releasing all of it but, maybe, if everyone is so concerned for 'dirty' people coming into the USA, put a law that anyone with the equivalent of a bachelors degree, good health and a clean criminal history can come here. A job here at Burger King is still a good job for an educated person from Uzbekistan. Burger King is prob as sweatshop as it gets for 21st century USA and it really is not that bad. Its just a start for person while they get to have fun trying to figure out how to improve the circumstances. And eventually, there may be a bell curve to this with deviations, they almost always will. This is a completely different thread but no healthy, functional human being is 'stuck' in life unless they accept that as their lot.

[ShaiGar]

I agree with you The LONE INTJ, Opening up the borders would be the best possible thing for the USA.

[Santana28]

here's the REAL problem though. Most of the ones you see now are LEGAL - born here.

We need to do more than just revoke birthright citizenship - we need to revoke it retroactively for children born to illegal parents for the past 15 years or so.

and those kids would be 15 and younger anyways, so they would have to leave when their illegal parents leave anyways.

If we dont do this, we are screwed.





Santana28 added to this post, 1 minutes and 33 seconds later...

I agree with you The LONE INTJ, Opening up the borders would be the best possible thing for the USA.

sorry guys, i'm not into the whole One World Government thing. we're already heading that way, and its not looking pretty.

[TheLoneINTJ]

here's the REAL problem though. Most of the ones you see now are LEGAL - born here.

We need to do more than just revoke birthright citizenship - we need to revoke it retroactively for children born to illegal parents for the past 15 years or so.

and those kids would be 15 and younger anyways, so they would have to leave when their illegal parents leave anyways.

If we dont do this, we are screwed.





Santana28 added to this post, 1 minutes and 33 seconds later...



sorry guys, i'm not into the whole One World Government thing. we're already heading that way, and its not looking pretty.


I don't know if I am into it either as much as it just looks like that is the way that the cookie is going to crumble. This thread on 'How to stop them illegals' is us sitting in a pub in London in 1750 trying to figure out how to make them colonials get in line and do what we say, while, we don't even realize that letting them do what is best for them is better for them and even better for us at the same time.

The other day someone was saying that it is a detriment to society to have all these 'lawbreakers' sneaking into our country. I asked him if he ever drove faster than the speed limit on the highway, he said yes, I called him a lawbreaker and a murderer, he responds that that law that he is breaking is meaningless and his statistical contribution to "deaths per accident per year by perhaps 1/100,000" acknowledging that he is contributing but labeling it as meaningless as well, when comparing to other things. Go ask an illegal immigrant why he breaks the law.

AND here is another argument that has been brewin' in my head on this topic. If we were to look at this situation from a purely (and mean very purely) ethical standpoint. In 1846 we started a war with Mexico by placing our troops into their country and declaring war on grounds of self-defemse after they attacked. We subsequently seized 500,000 square miles of land to include CO, CA, NM, AZ, NV, WY, and TX. 150 years later we pass all these "you can't join the club" laws and here we are sitting at our computers trying to figure out how to keep all those lawbreakers out of our country. So yeah, the seizing of these states was made 'official' by the treaty signed by the Mexican government at the time, however, who had troops with cannons and guns sitting in the capital? Was it an ethical seizure of another country's territory? About as ethical as the Nazi invasion of Poland. If someone was standing on Mars looking back at us he would be shaking his head.

[Santana28]

You know... perhaps i'm too much of an idealist. I break everything down into simplicities. And that being said - i think the only way to atone for past mistakes is to stop repeating them. Reparations are a ridiculous, inhumane concept on all levels.

Just as the British manipulated the future of the Colonials, we Americans are manipulating the future of the Mexican people. And further so, the Globalists are manipulating the futures of ALL nations via our military and economic "might."

We owe Mexico and the rest of the world nothing more than discontinuing our manipulation of them and leaving them to their own self-interests, and attending to our own. And part of that involves restoring the integrity of the law in this nation - by enforcing just laws, and doing away with unjust laws.

[LJB]

While the U.S. doesn't have the market cornered on xenophobia, I would have hoped that a nation built by the inspiration, desire, sweat, blood and tears of generations of immigrants would have spawned more charitable and forgiving citizens when it comes to subsequent generations of people seeking a better way of life. Legal or illegal... that's all the majority of immigrants want for themselves and their families. They don't want to take what you have, they simply want the chance to have their own.

Yet the arguments never change, just the race and ethnic origins of the immigrants to be kept out.

In the late '80s prior to the fall of Wall, a Sociology professor posed a series of questions in one of my courses where the American students were talking rather cavalierly about the potential numbers (i.e., in the hundreds of thousands) of dead on either side during a first or second nuclear strike. He asked quite simply "Where does your 'charity' end?" "With your immediate family?" "With your neighbor?" "On your street?" "In your city?" "In your country?" "In the West?"

He asked us to think about "where" we would stop "helping" people out or up, and challenged us to think of a world without political boundaries. It was quite intriguing to see how students reacted to this concept of our earthly connectedness–either in stunned silence or by intensely arguing.

I believe that the issue of illegal immigration has socio-cultural parallels to that discussion.

Arbitrary, mythical borders made by men should not define the value of a human being. Nor should the political or economic systems that rule over them, the language they speak or the color of their skin.

[xanodel]

I think the entire immigration and migration across borders debate is quite silly, considering less than 100 years ago we didn't have visas or passports regulating how we go across borders. I can see why today, with increased crime, we might need some documentation, but the system and the difficulty to get a legal visa to the US (even just to visit) can be quite ludicrous (and costly) at times. And while some of the crime illegals commit are quite gross and serious, they nonetheless count for a minority of the illegals, and legal immigrants here in the US.

Seeing that most of the illegals we're talking about actually work temporarily, I'm not sure why we can't give them temporary work visas. At the same time, I think we need to reform some bits of labor law so they aren't seriously exploited (and the increased costs themselves might deter some employers from hiring illegals). It simply unnerves me how an issue that originated in labor rights blew into a full-on debate about national identity.

LJB: that's an interesting concept and I'm more inclined to be alright with it, since in a political vein, most of what we consider national identity in the political sense, is in my opinion, an arbitrary social construct (constructivism theory) that tries to unify in a political sense while ignoring to many large extents, the cultural base-it's to an extent a bastardization of cultural national identity. If we left most things to cultural national identity and take out the political aspects of it, most times a meshing of cultures do occur. In that sense, there would be greater peace than what other social theories offer.

[bubbles]

This whole problem of "illegal immigration" would have never been a problem if the illegal immigrants are of European descent. Back then, most immigrants who came here were probably "illegal." People are clearly making this an issue because of skin color. There are people complaining about the fact that just about everything here (California) is bilingual. They come up with other arguments like "illegal immigrants are using up our tax dollars" to persuade non-racists to join their side, but the fact is that "illegal" immigrants don't really hurt the economy. They are a source of cheap labor and help reduce the prices of goods and services.

Obviously, in today's world, people are afraid of terrorists, smugglers, and other criminals who come to the US to do harm, so they are a problem, but I think the government is doing a good job preventing terrorist attacks (there hasn't been one since 9/11) and fighting their "War on Drugs" (a huge waste of money...).

[karen]

So many 'white' americans are part irish... why? because during the last potaot famine literally half of the surviving irish population came to the states. Don't get me wrong people complained about it then, and there are still a few fogeys out there that still talk smack about the irish. My point is, how is this different from our current situation. What is this country based on. As long as people are working, who cares? They are productive, they have to be: you can't get on welfare when you're illegal (I'm kinda assuming here, I hope thats right). If its a question of national money though, just legalize everyone currently in our borders and tax the H-E-double hockey sticks out of them and have a rule about no welfare before so many years as a citizen.

[iamnotspock]

Economics is an immutable force. You cannot stop the demand for cheap labor. If you make it illegal, you just make it a black market. Then you lose the tax revenue and the ability to regulate it.

As I see it that's what we do with illegal immigration. We cannot stop the demand for cheap labor to build houses, mow lawns, pick crops, etc. Businesses always want the cheapest possible. And immigrants want the work. But since these people are illegal we lose the revenue from their labor. And we lose the ability to regulate them for safety, health, crime, etc. Finaly, by making laws we don't enforce, we make ourselves look stupid.

So the best solution is to legalize workers. As long as you PAY TAXES you get to stay. But once you become a welfare bum you have to go home. Same if you break the law. Then we focus enforcement on the criminals and the bums and benefit by the labor of the honest hard-working folks.

One more note: If all the illegal workers left today the shock to the economy would be massive. Cost of services would rise, profits would drop. We all benefit from the cheap labor of illegal immigrants. Few of us could afford our lifestyle without them. Why not increase the benefit to our country by collecting some more tax revenue, too?

[brainiac]

The so-called illegal immigration is really not a problem, it's been a solution to our thirst for cheap prices and cheap labor. That being said, now that we have "illegals" moving into our neighborhoods and using our schools and services it is now a problem. It also doesn't make any sense that the state will accept "illegals" into the school system or hire their parents, yet won't allow them to get a license to drive to work or drive kids to school. That is hypocrisy if you ask me.

[Mountain Lion]

Non one is Illegal! (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) :)

There are no illegal human beings, only inhumane and illegal laws.

If you agree, please, visit the following website (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[thod]

The business with the 'help wanted' sign is not paying enough. I will put a a "help wanted" sign outside my place. I will pay $1 a day, I could use someone to do my dishs and laundry, mow the lawn etc. Its easy to run a successful business when you can pay less than your competition. The fact is those businesses need to close they are not competative. If they dont make enough money to pay what other businesses do then they go. The sooner the better to allow the others to thrive.

Illegal workers are easy to stop. You dont have to deport them or whip them. You hit the people that are employing them. They are US citizens and an available target. They are rich since they are employers, they are greedy since they want to employ illegals. Without work the illegals will return home. Its just that in the US the rich call the shots and they like cheap labor. How about a 10k fine and a month in jail for a first offence. That will stop it overnight.

Here in the UK we have a similar problem. The migrants are east europeans though and are here legaly. Still doesnt help when you have vast queues for every janitor job and the locals are priced out of housing and are unable to find work.

It doesnt matter that apples are rotting on trees. If the guy cant afford to pick them then why is he growing them. He knows his costs, he knows he cant pick them due to labor costs. Just like the manufacturer that says i cant afford labour in the US. He has to move his orchard to a cheaper labor zone. This is the natural process, the rich zones grow poorer and the poor richer negating the need for people to migrate. It doesnt make sense to set up a used car lot in downtown manhatten. You go where land is cheaper.

[Santana28]

the problem with hiring illegal immigrants is not that they are necessarily cheap, easy to find labor - but that they are cheap, easy to find labor that DOESN'T DESIRE BENEFITS OR RAISES IN WAGE. this, in turn, stagnates the wages for citizen employees doing the same jobs, and makes it more difficult to find employers who provide health insurance. the financial gains made by employing illegals might benefit the company in the short term, but in the event that amnesty occurs, these same illegals will be forming their own labor unions and demanding better pay. and we will be back to square one - with 20 million + more uneducated, unskilled mouths to feed. or since we will have given them amnesty, they will receive it under threat of discrimination lawsuits - while american laborers stand outside in the cold.

all of these companies currently booming off of illegal workers would not exist if it weren't for this type of labor, and will no longer exist once the amnesty they seek comes to pass.

businesses that employ illegal immigrants are nothing but worthless profiteers who seek short term gain, regardless of the consequences.

[Kotetsu]

The public is more than happy to turn a blind eye to the exploitation of illegal immigrants because they can avoid the truth behind the cheap cost of living. It is quite sad, but it is also going to continue.