One-on-one hanging out (with the other gender) vs. Dating

[Samoan Corleone]

Shall we discuss the differences?

[runoverazebra]

The only real difference between the two for me is that there is touching involved with dating.

[Samoan Corleone]

Good point. Say that it's never explicitly stated whether it's a date or whether it's hanging out, but it's an outing with another person nonetheless. Would you say that plenty of mutual playful touching constitutes a date?

[runoverazebra]

I recently went out with a fellow INTJ. It was under the impression that we were just hanging out. He was under the impression that it was a date. It was definitely the tickling that clued me into the fact that it was a date. If there is playful touching and I am not upset by it or I reciprocate, then I definitely consider it a date. It's really the only way that I am able to make the distinction between hanging out and an actual date.

[schwartzie]

"dating" carries expectations that cause the intj to be incapable of speaking a coherent sentence when it matters.

[Wapiti]

"dating" carries expectations that cause the intj to be incapable of speaking a coherent sentence when it matters.

I'd agree with that and add that with those I know well, touching happens in time in the sense that it's ok to touch a shoulder or tap a back. But only after getting to know someone very well. Hanging out is the best way to sneak attack an intj and wind up dating them.

[runoverazebra]

Hanging out is the best way to sneak attack an intj and wind up dating them.

This has been done to me quite frequently. It seems to be an effective method.

[Necrosis]

I've never been on a date with anyone other than my g/f. Touching is very personal to me. I guess I could call a date going to dinner with a female that I am interested in and feels the same for me.

Emotions.... ew.

[ranwayslo]

"dating" carries expectations that cause the intj to be incapable of speaking a coherent sentence when it matters.

For me personally this doesn't apply. The first meeting can be like this but if it is an agreed upon date then I am over the "standard" "INTJ" reaction. A good time will be had by all.

If it is not clearly a date then I will immediately clarify the purpose of the "outing" and modify my behavior accordingly.

Since I generally don't care much for people, I usually will not involve myself in hanging out. It helps that most people don't have enough self confidence for their ego to survive more than 15 minutes of silent contemplation from me. Honestly, I have enough friends of both genders that I don't feel the need to *expand my social circle again.

*Note: My original purpose in joining this forum was to practice socialization with others like myself in order to add two new friends to my social group. That mission has been successfully completed. It will probably be another 10 years or so before I meet anyone else that I am comfortable enough with to invite them in.

[raz1337]

This reminds me of my problem right now. I had met this ESFJ girl in one of my classes, tried pursuing her with the intention of dating her. We started studying together, saw a movie once after studying, but it ended up being just studying. We had a conversation where she said she wasn't in the position for a relationship due to her father's medical problems, then went on to say that she wanted to have a relationship when she moved out of her parents' house.

She just moved out this weekend, but the last 3 months has just been mostly studying with us, but I've gotten to know her quite a bit personally. I've started losing interest in her as a person the last few weeks, and started getting quiet around her and no longer initiating texts/phone calls. She only initiates outside of class for something regarding studying, yet we're still "friends" when we're in class. I've just gotten tired of her only contacting me outside of class for help with schoolwork.

Thankfully, the class only has 3 weeks left, but I'm not sure what'll happen after it ends. I've started thinking lately, if she suddenly asked me out somewhere, I really don't think I'd be interested now. This making friends stuff is complicated.

[Henry]

Shall we discuss the differences?

None. No such thing as a 100% platonic male-female solo hangout.

[Samoan Corleone]

None. No such thing as a 100% platonic male-female solo hangout.

If that's true then I've been on more "dates" than I give myself credit for.

[rara avis]

"dating" carries expectations that cause the intj to be incapable of speaking a coherent sentence when it matters.

I definitely agree on the "when it matters" speech impediment.

But I have been on Official Dates that didn't really matter; where I was essentially performing an exercise which didn't faze me much. And I have been an incoherent bystander when someone important was hanging out just nearby, not even with me.



I'm going to say that dating involves mutual potential romantic intent/expectations.

[Deliberator]

As a naive superintroverted freshman there was no way in hell I would go on a "date" with a guy because I was TERRIFIED he'd try to kiss me. If it sounded too much like a date I'd say no, if it sounded "friendy", and non-committal then I would go. Preferred activities would be playing pool or getting coffee.

As such I successfully evaded my first kiss until I was officially "going out" with a guy, and even then I only let him after two weeks of steady dating.

[Ava]

I think for it to officially be a "date" it has to be mutually agreed on by both parties that it really actually is a date and not just a random platonic outing. Of course coming to the agreement, without actually coming out and saying anything, is going to be the tricky part. Can't say what the difference is for me because I've never been on (what I consider) an actual date.

I've found myself in several situations before where I thought I was just casually hanging out with a friend who happened to be male, and then I find myself being brought to a fairly nice restaurant with candles on the table and lots of couples about and having my meal paid for and going home wondering if the other party thought that that was supposed to be a date and what on earth I was supposed to do about the whole awkward situation now.

I wish people would be more up front about their expectations with these things. (Or maybe I am just oblivious? It's possible. =X) "Would you like to go out to dinner with me?" has a different connotation than "I'm hungry. Oh, you are too? Hey, let's go grab a bite to eat then." I guess the idea is that the latter question is easier to ask and more likely to get a "yes" response, but it's also sort of sneakily hiding the asker's true intentions.

[Acextreme]

This reminds me of my problem right now. I had met this ESFJ girl in one of my classes, tried pursuing her with the intention of dating her. We started studying together, saw a movie once after studying, but it ended up being just studying. We had a conversation where she said she wasn't in the position for a relationship due to her father's medical problems, then went on to say that she wanted to have a relationship when she moved out of her parents' house.

She just moved out this weekend, but the last 3 months has just been mostly studying with us, but I've gotten to know her quite a bit personally. I've started losing interest in her as a person the last few weeks, and started getting quiet around her and no longer initiating texts/phone calls. She only initiates outside of class for something regarding studying, yet we're still "friends" when we're in class. I've just gotten tired of her only contacting me outside of class for help with schoolwork.

Thankfully, the class only has 3 weeks left, but I'm not sure what'll happen after it ends. I've started thinking lately, if she suddenly asked me out somewhere, I really don't think I'd be interested now. This making friends stuff is complicated.

That is WHY now I refused to help out in studies, especially to girls I am interested. And to avoid complications, when I talk to the girl I am interested, I rarely talk about school work; they know I am smart and all that but I want to draw my line very clear that I am talking to them because I am interested and not as a friend to help them out in studies. That can come later when we are together... ;)

This might be quite similar in application to the dual ladder theory...





Acextreme added to this post, 6 minutes and 13 seconds later...

I think for it to officially be a "date" it has to be mutually agreed on by both parties that it really actually is a date and not just a random platonic outing. Of course coming to the agreement, without actually coming out and saying anything, is going to be the tricky part. Can't say what the difference is for me because I've never been on (what I consider) an actual date.

I've found myself in several situations before where I thought I was just casually hanging out with a friend who happened to be male, and then I find myself being brought to a fairly nice restaurant with candles on the table and lots of couples about and having my meal paid for and going home wondering if the other party thought that that was supposed to be a date and what on earth I was supposed to do about the whole awkward situation now.

I wish people would be more up front about their expectations with these things. (Or maybe I am just oblivious? It's possible. =X) "Would you like to go out to dinner with me?" has a different connotation than "I'm hungry. Oh, you are too? Hey, let's go grab a bite to eat then." I guess the idea is that the latter question is easier to ask and more likely to get a "yes" response, but it's also sort of sneakily hiding the asker's true intentions.

You are just oblivious. Which guy would pay for your dinner at a rather expensive place if they are not interested in you? :stunned:

[Latro]

This reminds me of my problem right now. I had met this ESFJ girl in one of my classes, tried pursuing her with the intention of dating her. We started studying together, saw a movie once after studying, but it ended up being just studying. We had a conversation where she said she wasn't in the position for a relationship due to her father's medical problems, then went on to say that she wanted to have a relationship when she moved out of her parents' house.

She just moved out this weekend, but the last 3 months has just been mostly studying with us, but I've gotten to know her quite a bit personally. I've started losing interest in her as a person the last few weeks, and started getting quiet around her and no longer initiating texts/phone calls. She only initiates outside of class for something regarding studying, yet we're still "friends" when we're in class. I've just gotten tired of her only contacting me outside of class for help with schoolwork.

Thankfully, the class only has 3 weeks left, but I'm not sure what'll happen after it ends. I've started thinking lately, if she suddenly asked me out somewhere, I really don't think I'd be interested now. This making friends stuff is complicated.
Gah...I've had the same problem. Parents kept on telling me that this girl clearly liked me (from what little they had seen of her, i.e. phone calls to help with schoolwork and some mild flirtation while eating at her parents' restaurant, a long-time favorite of ours), I had some vague interest in her, but all she'd ever contact me about is schoolwork (specifically chemistry, actually; if it had been more diverse I might've thought differently). More recently she started contacting me out of the blue (after not doing so for several months) and it turned out she was having computer trouble; her laptop was getting sporadic BSODs. I guess I just didn't like the feeling of being used, and didn't want that to advance any further. Why I continue to actually respond to her (when she occasionally contacts me) now is beyond me; maybe it's just a little trace of interest still lingering around.
That is WHY now I refused to help out in studies, especially to girls I am interested. And to avoid complications, when I talk to the girl I am interested, I rarely talk about school work; they know I am smart and all that but I want to draw my line very clear that I am talking to them because I am interested and not as a friend to help them out in studies. That can come later when we are together... ;)

This might be quite similar in application to the dual ladder theory...
Clever...if only I could meet someone outside the context of school, I might be able to give this a shot. Sadly I'm pragmatic to a fault, and spend most of my leisure time online and have relatively few non-curricular interests (that is, I'm not into volunteer work or things like that).

Hell, really, if I could just find someone I was interested in to begin with, I'd be able to try a huge number of things that have come to my mind in the last few years (and also since I found this place). Alas, with so few extracurricular interests about the only places I see people IRL outside of random people that are around (that I would NOT be comfortable approaching), are in class, and we're generally pretty busy in class. That, and (thus far at least) I haven't really been interested in any of my classmates.

Playing pool would be a good idea though, now that I think of it...and it helps that I actually play.

[Zhen]

Hanging out is the best way to sneak attack an intj and wind up dating them.

yup!





Zhen added to this post, 1 minutes and 49 seconds later...

I think for it to officially be a "date" it has to be mutually agreed on by both parties that it really actually is a date and not just a random platonic outing. Of course coming to the agreement, without actually coming out and saying anything, is going to be the tricky part. Can't say what the difference is for me because I've never been on (what I consider) an actual date.

I've found myself in several situations before where I thought I was just casually hanging out with a friend who happened to be male, and then I find myself being brought to a fairly nice restaurant with candles on the table and lots of couples about and having my meal paid for and going home wondering if the other party thought that that was supposed to be a date and what on earth I was supposed to do about the whole awkward situation now.

I wish people would be more up front about their expectations with these things. (Or maybe I am just oblivious? It's possible. =X) "Would you like to go out to dinner with me?" has a different connotation than "I'm hungry. Oh, you are too? Hey, let's go grab a bite to eat then." I guess the idea is that the latter question is easier to ask and more likely to get a "yes" response, but it's also sort of sneakily hiding the asker's true intentions.
yeah, it's good when people are upfront straight away so you don't end up getting surprised by some really awkward situation...

[raz1337]

Hanging out is the best way to sneak attack an intj and wind up dating them.

o_O Sounds like a plan. I just need to find these INTJ girls then. I think I casually bumped into a teenage INTJ girl over the weekend at a restaurant. They're just...really cool because they're not hesitant at all to start criticizing a situation or make fun of it. There's an xNTJ girl I work with that's really fun to talk to, but she's like 7 years old than me, so...it's awkward sometimes. She claims she's very outgoing and not introverted, but it just seems she's more dominated by Ni than Te. Maybe I don't have much experience with xNTJs.

Can INTJs and ENTJs be confused that easily? I had her pegged as INTJ from the start.

[Synchronicity]

None. No such thing as a 100% platonic male-female solo hangout.

Unless the girl is ugly.

[TheLastMohican]

Unless the girl is ugly.

Aren't you ignoring the girl's perspective in that case?

[Synchronicity]

Aren't you ignoring the girl's perspective in that case?

I'm ugly, too.

[TheLastMohican]

I'm ugly, too.
Okay. It wasn't clear that you were only referring to your own experiences.

Ugliness does not exclude the possibility of attraction, however. People tend to be attracted to those near their own level, and some are largely indifferent to physical traits, so that personality/intelligence becomes the determining factor by default.

[Synchronicity]

Okay. It wasn't clear that you were only referring to your own experiences.

Ugliness does not exclude the possibility of attraction, however. People tend to be attracted to those near their own level, and some are largely indifferent to physical traits, so that personality/intelligence becomes the determining factor by default.

I was being (mostly) facetious. In seriousness, I have issues with the distinguishing of romantic attraction and platonic attraction. The former requires some level of physical attraction, IMO, otherwise there's nothing to separate it from simple friendship, which is just varying levels of emotional intimacy. Physical attraction may not be the most important factor in romantic attraction, but it has to be there.

[raz1337]

I was being (mostly) facetious. In seriousness, I have issues with the distinguishing of romantic attraction and platonic attraction. The former requires some level of physical attraction, IMO, otherwise there's nothing to separate it from simple friendship, which is just varying levels of emotional intimacy. Physical attraction may not be the most important factor in romantic attraction, but it has to be there.

That's why there's a difference between friendship intimacy, romantic attraction and physical attraction. There have been plenty times I've experienced the friendship intimacy without the physical attraction. That part can be confusing.

[steerthestars]

None. No such thing as a 100% platonic male-female solo hangout.

Then, theoretically, everyone is straight?

[TheLastMohican]

Then, theoretically, everyone is straight?
Theoretically (according to some), no one is 100% heterosexual or homosexual.

[Feral]

I've had very few girl friends. Almost all of my close friends have always been guys.

Dating is just like the hanging out and being friends, but with different expectations. And more touching.

[raz1337]

I've had very few girl friends. Almost all of my close friends have always been guys.

Dating is just like the hanging out and being friends, but with different expectations. And more touching.

So the vital aspect is touching.

[Prunesquallor]

So the vital aspect is touching.

And expectations.

[OneHertz]

I've had very few girl friends. Almost all of my close friends have always been guys.

Dating is just like the hanging out and being friends, but with different expectations. And more touching.

Do you think all of your male friends have the same expectations as you?

If I remember correctly, you are very attractive, so I highly doubt that...

[Harmony]

Hmm, I have a bit of a different perspective on this.

When I'm going on a date with a guy this generally means that I am dressed somewhat casual, but still look nice.

Usually, when I'm out with one of the guys I'm in a ball cap and jeans and a hoodie.

On a date it usually consists of dinner and a movie or some other fun activity.

Out with one of the guys consists of going to a restaurant or sports bar, having lunch and watching some games on TV.

Most of my guy friends can be pretty protective of me. Some might have more feelings for me, but they have never hinted at that if they do (or I'm really dense)... They have told me that they think I'm attractive, and even sometimes have asked what I see in a guy (if they don't approve of who I'm dating). However, any time I have been single, none of these guys have ever tried to make a move. Most of my guy friends don't seem to want a girl that shares their love of sports and video games.

[Feral]

Do you think all of your male friends have the same expectations as you?

If I remember correctly, you are very attractive, so I highly doubt that...

Their hopes were different than their expectations.
They always hoped, but they knew better than to expect.

[raz1337]

And expectations.

Right. Like, how I took dance classes with a hot ENFP a year ago, and she went on a date with her now boyfriend a month later.

[ranwayslo]

The intention of the touch is important as well. You can tell what someone else is thinking by how they touch you. My female friend refers to it as the creepy factor.

[Henry]

Then, theoretically, everyone is straight?

If you're asking if a hangout is platonic or has romantic undertones, then obviously you're not referring to a gay male gay female hangout, are you?

Could you please stop with the self-victimization? I know its deeply offensive to say that there's no such thing as a 100% platonic male-female hangout, but can you please keep your comments limited to one thread?

[Samoan Corleone]

That's why there's a difference between friendship intimacy, romantic attraction and physical attraction. There have been plenty times I've experienced the friendship intimacy without the physical attraction. That part can be confusing.

That's always confused me, too. There are girls who a guy can hang out with one-on-one, hug tightly, and have deep, intimate conversations with, and still not know whether they're just really really close friends or whether there's romance there.

[Prunesquallor]

All of which means it's a good idea to actually talk to the other person about this. It's even better if you believe what they say, instead of stupidly hoping they'll change their mind, after they told you it's a no-go. If you lie and say you're ok with friendship, it's your own fault. And if you hang out and never once say it's a date, then it's not a date.

There's always a time at the beginning before everything is defined, when you're still deciding. Unless you like taking flying leaps at conclusions. It can be annoying and confusing, but everyone deals with it.

[Lolie]

The intention of the touch is important as well. You can tell what someone else is thinking by how they touch you. My female friend refers to it as the creepy factor.

Yep, there's a definite kind of touch which is unwelcome from anyone in whom I have no sexual interest. That same touch would be welcome from someone in whom I was sexually interested.

Likewise, if you're a male and I have no sexual interest in you I really don't want to hear about how many times in the last week I've been your wank-fodder - it's not flattering, it's squicky. My reaction to that information is totally different if I am interested in you sexually.

I tend to do the same things with those I'm sexually and emotionally interested in with those I'm not. If I'm "hanging out", I have no interest in seeing you naked (ever). If my thoughts keep wandering towards how soon I'm going to get to you see naked, then I guess it's a "date".





Lolie added to this post, 4 minutes and 36 seconds later...

That's always confused me, too. There are girls who a guy can hang out with one-on-one, hug tightly, and have deep, intimate conversations with, and still not know whether they're just really really close friends or whether there's romance there.

Lot's of people who aren't part of my social circle assume I'm involved with my male friends. I think it has something to do with how at ease we are around each other. Overall, my friendships with men are more emotionally intimate than my friendships with women, and I think that's what leads people to assume romantic involvement where there is none.

[Samoan Corleone]

Lot's of people who aren't part of my social circle assume I'm involved with my male friends. I think it has something to do with how at ease we are around each other. Overall, my friendships with men are more emotionally intimate than my friendships with women, and I think that's what leads people to assume romantic involvement where there is none.

So these guys you're talking about are in the friend zone?

[Lolie]

So these guys you're talking about are in the friend zone?

I'd say mates rather than just friends. Like what I imagine having brothers you liked hanging out with would be. I care about them a lot, but in an extended family kind of way.

[K27]

So, it seems like most ppl here think that romance involves sex and physical attraction (appearance).
Platonic love seems non-existent.

Just a summary. But to be frank, I can't get it.
Loads of people go and have sex with various girls, but tell me that they only ever love one girl.
So what's the real distinction? What makes the man knows that that's the girl he love?
(Applicable to opposite sex / gender.)

[everlost]

So, it seems like most ppl here think that romance involves sex and physical attraction (appearance).
Platonic love seems non-existent.

Just a summary. But to be frank, I can't get it.
Loads of people go and have sex with various girls, but tell me that they only ever love one girl.
So what's the real distinction? What makes the man knows that that's the girl he love?
(Applicable to opposite sex / gender.)

I believe it's because they feel sexually attracted to all the girls they're with, but feel attracted to one more than the others in a non-sexual way (they might share interests, intellectual capacity for example), and that's what they feel is love; the combination sexual attraction + non-sexual attraction.

However, I think that even if the non-sexual part of the attraction is, ultimately, what makes the man say "this one girl I love", he would not call it love if the sexual part of the attraction was not there.

[Thirdie]

Sorry, but I'm against dating. Dating goes on a "fun" basis which displeases me. It involves stuff that I don't focus on, and it's like a launching site for it. It doesn't go on sincere interpersonal communication.

On the other hand, I don't mind hanging out, at all. As long as it stays casual and friendly, I could go to Everest with a person. That, is, real fun. You get to know the person not as a fake which would only try to get you as they want... Just as a genuine one.


Blame my naiveness.

[Lolie]

So, it seems like most ppl here think that romance involves sex and physical attraction (appearance).
Platonic love seems non-existent.

Just a summary. But to be frank, I can't get it.
Loads of people go and have sex with various girls, but tell me that they only ever love one girl.
So what's the real distinction? What makes the man knows that that's the girl he love?
(Applicable to opposite sex / gender.)

Dunno. I love lots of people in my life. I'm sexually attracted to lots of people. Maybe it's when the two combine with unusual intensity.

When I reflect on the common denominators for the men I've loved in a romantic way, what stands out is that they're people I could know for the rest of my life and still not know everything there is to know about them intellectually, emotionally, and sexually - a feeling that there'll always be something more I want to learn about them.

Doesn't really answer the question, but it's the best I've got.





Lolie added to this post, 6 minutes and 9 seconds later...

Sorry, but I'm against dating. Dating goes on a "fun" basis which displeases me. It involves stuff that I don't focus on, and it's like a launching site for it. It doesn't go on sincere interpersonal communication.

On the other hand, I don't mind hanging out, at all. As long as it stays casual and friendly, I could go to Everest with a person. That, is, real fun. You get to know the person not as a fake which would only try to get you as they want... Just as a genuine one.


Blame my naiveness.

Yep. Hate the "let's do something special that makes this a *date*" thing, too. How about we just do something casual and fun but do it by ourselves instead of in a group, instead. Beer and pizza's fine with me. So is going to the wreckers to get that new part you need for your bike. Or watching your housemate make a fool of himself hitting on some girl at a bar.

I guess what I'm interested in is getting to know people in their natural environment rather than doing something which makes it an "occasion".

[pocohauntus]

That's always confused me, too. There are girls who a guy can hang out with one-on-one, hug tightly, and have deep, intimate conversations with, and still not know whether they're just really really close friends or whether there's romance there.
But how can you not know? If there was romance there, one thing would lead to, well you know. And if that doesn't happen within a reasonable amount of time, it's not romantic.

Also, I second most of Lolie's posts here.

[dalidaisy]

I've always "hung out" with guys one-on-one & in groups. Did they want to be romantic with me? I guess some may have. Did they get the chance? Not usually. I do not date or sleep with friends that I hang with, not if I want to keep them as friends, anyway.

[Lolie]

I've always "hung out" with guys one-on-one & in groups. Did they want to be romantic with me? I guess some may have. Did they get the chance? Not usually. I do not date or sleep with friends that I hang with, not if I want to keep them as friends, anyway.

Quite a few of my male friends are men I've been sexually involved with in some way. I think the reason why it didn't affect the friendships in any adverse way is because we weren't romantically involved - neither of us had any hopes and dreams about friendship plus sex leading to a long-term, committed relationship.





Lolie added to this post, 7 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Just thought of another thing which differentiates the love I have for my friends and family from the love I have for potential mates - if I'm considering the impact of the big decisions in my life like where to live, what job to take, etc on the relationship between myself and that person then I'm "in love" with them whether I admit it or not. This is doubly true if I'd be willing to move away from my current world in order to maintain that relationship - I wouldn't even consider doing that for friends, no matter how valued they are.

[Calagnethil]

If I would ask a girl I know through some social interaction, but not so much just me and her, out on dinner or cafe or something, whenever I get a chance to do so (hopefully a while into a conversation with just me and her present - I wouldn't dare do it if others were there). What would she think? Would that be a date, or just "interested in getting to know you more"? Is it reasonable to assume she would think I'm a bit interested in her romantically, and want to get to know her a bit more in order to consider it?

[Prunesquallor]

If I would ask a girl I know through some social interaction, but not so much just me and her, out on dinner or cafe or something, whenever I get a chance to do so (hopefully a while into a conversation with just me and her present - I wouldn't dare do it if others were there). What would she think? Would that be a date, or just "interested in getting to know you more"? Is it reasonable to assume she would think I'm a bit interested in her romantically, and want to get to know her a bit more in order to consider it?

Quite possibly, unless you were trying too hard to be casual and made it a study date or something. But even if she guesses, she's not responsible for reading your mind, so you can't assume anything or blame her for not picking up on it. You have to actually talk about it, say the d word - putting it off a few get-togethers is fine, though.

[Lolie]

If I would ask a girl I know through some social interaction, but not so much just me and her, out on dinner or cafe or something, whenever I get a chance to do so (hopefully a while into a conversation with just me and her present - I wouldn't dare do it if others were there). What would she think? Would that be a date, or just "interested in getting to know you more"? Is it reasonable to assume she would think I'm a bit interested in her romantically, and want to get to know her a bit more in order to consider it?

Honestly, it depends on the girl. Generally I'd avoid dinner if you don't want to scream "date". Cafe would be my preferred option, and on a "wanna go grab something to eat, my treat" kind of basis when you're already talking to her about something else rather than a "do you want to have lunch on Tuesday" kind of thing. From my perspective, the more formal and structured the arrangements, the more I'm going to regard it as a "date" and stress about the potential awkwardness and pressure that comes with that.

Your way to let her know you're interested in her romantically without being pushy is to say something like "that was fun, would you like to do it again some time?" at the end of your not-date.

But I'm the kind who thinks that men are already planning to microchip me and have puppies if they invite me to dinner the first time we go out alone - other women are really into the romantic gestures thing from day one.

[Calagnethil]

What seems most reasonable, if indeed my intention are to get to know her a bit just me and her, in order for me to better know wether she is "worth" pursuing romantically, is to ask her out on something, without mentioning the "d word". She'll probably guess my intentions a bit, and if she doesn't, it doesn't really matter. My affections can, if circumstances allow it, be declared on the "non-date", or is that inappropriate to the code? Anyway, if I continiue to be interested, I need declare it sometime, why not on the "causal dinner", making it a date? It is not smart to play hot and cold for too long. Or may that be too hot too quick? I probably need evaluate the situation. I might of course, if the pre-date was successful, invite her for something else a short time afterwards. Would that be to prefer? How quickly should I proceed in this, and is it any good solution at all for getting the girl I want? Any reasonable alternative? As it is, natural friendship development proves diffucult, because she's more extroverted or something. Or should I be more persistent in "trying to get friends with her"? As an INTJ, my main strenght is not here, in manipulating dominant social forces "my way", as I tend not to be an influencial social force together with certain people (her friends included in that category), or in a larger social setting. So if I sense some sparks between us, but find it diffucult to get one on one time with her, would then such a "pre-date" as I schemed, formally just friendship, but with som romantic undertones (at least as an underlying motivational factor for my part), be a good solution? And if I find it hard to get alone with her, may I text her or phone her about this? Or does that just seem weird or a bit too sudden (with a "date" that is not a date, but somehow a date anyhow)?

All these questions because I recently discovered that "normal" people tend to think differently about romantic issues than at least some of us INTJs (including me). Is there any Dr. Love out there to help us? Or at least give some valuable input on my dating reflections.

[Lolie]

What seems most reasonable, if indeed my intention are to get to know her a bit just me and her, in order for me to better know wether she is "worth" pursuing romantically, is to ask her out on something, without mentioning the "d word". She'll probably guess my intentions a bit, and if she doesn't, it doesn't really matter. My affections can, if circumstances allow it, be declared on the "non-date", or is that inappropriate to the code? Anyway, if I continiue to be interested, I need declare it sometime, why not on the "causal dinner", making it a date? It is not smart to play hot and cold for too long. Or may that be too hot too quick? I probably need evaluate the situation. I might of course, if the pre-date was successful, invite her for something else a short time afterwards. Would that be to prefer? How quickly should I proceed in this, and is it any good solution at all for getting the girl I want? Any reasonable alternative? As it is, natural friendship development proves diffucult, because she's more extroverted or something. Or should I be more persistent in "trying to get friends with her"? As an INTJ, my main strenght is not here, in manipulating dominant social forces "my way", as I tend not to be an influencial social force together with certain people (her friends included in that category), or in a larger social setting. So if I sense some sparks between us, but find it diffucult to get one on one time with her, would then such a "pre-date" as I schemed, formally just friendship, but with som romantic undertones (at least as an underlying motivational factor for my part), be a good solution? And if I find it hard to get alone with her, may I text her or phone her about this? Or does that just seem weird or a bit too sudden (with a "date" that is not a date, but somehow a date anyhow)?

All these questions because I recently discovered that "normal" people tend to think differently about romantic issues than at least some of us INTJs (including me). Is there any Dr. Love out there to help us? Or at least give some valuable input on my dating reflections.

I think there's a bit of a cultural difference in the way we use the word "date". It seems that Americans use it in a "view marriage if suited" kind of way, whereas here it's more a finding out whether there's any potential for a non-casual relationship. You have a "date" with someone in whom your interest is more than purely sexual, so there is some expectation that it might lead to something exclusive and ongoing, but definitely no expectation of long-term commitment.

[Calagnethil]

From my point of view, Lolie, your advices seem reasonable. The problem is, someone pointed out, that other people tend to think different from us. They do not have the same degree of patience, and does not put down as much effort in consideration as we do. So it seems. But I may be wrong. Naturally, I tend towards your thinking though. But if I'm just the "nice friendly guy", many people will be uncertain as to where my intensions lie. It has been called the "hot and cold thing", as which this natural INTJ tendency (as is shared by me), is to not overexpose your enthusiasm about the other person in the "friendly circus" (however, the friendly sircus may be a genuin one - you want friendship, but maybe something more - but that does not take away my critizism of this behavior). Eventually, a few non-INTJ girls in this forum told me, they will be in the end tired of this behavior, as it appears to them to be confucious signals. If their way of thinking is the standard outside INTJ circles, is of course not within my field of knowledge, but it is something we should consider.

In view of this, what is best and most appropriate? The "friendly circus", or the "seemingly date"? Does it depend on which personality type it is? How does it then depend on this? Does INTJs (most of them, or at least some of them) fall into a seperate category here, in which careful friendship building is to be prioritized, while most other types prefer the "straight forward - manner", beeing honest, uncamouflaged and, yes, pretty obvious, or at least not mysterious about your intentions?





Calagnethil added to this post, 34 minutes and 44 seconds later...

I think the European definition of date which I am operating from, fits well with your Australian one. It seems to me most fruitful (as to where I am coming from) to view "date" as the point where friendship and a possible romantic (more than sex) relationship meet. Thus, asking for a dinner at least, and maybe a cafe as well, screams "date!". At least if it is an appointment and not "natural go grab some food".

Good to clarify the definition. Asking is always a risk, but it is not so dramatic within this definition. What you communicate by asking is this: "I actually like you quite a bit! Would you consider coming out with me, so that the two of us can find out how well we fit together, if we find the tone, and if there is any basis there worth building a (romantic) relationship on?"

[Lolie]

In view of this, what is best and most appropriate? The "friendly circus", or the "seemingly date"? Does it depend on which personality type it is? How does it then depend on this? Does INTJs (most of them, or at least some of them) fall into a seperate category here, in which careful friendship building is to be prioritized, while most other types prefer the "straight forward - manner", beeing honest, uncamouflaged and, yes, pretty obvious, or at least not mysterious about your intentions?

I'm not sure. I don't "date" people I wouldn't want as friends, and I think that makes a difference. I'm always a bit shocked to read "why didn't he/she call" type threads because it says to me that the non-caller had no interest in the person, only in finding someone with whom to "have a relationship". And perhaps that's something to consider.

I'm incredibly upfront about my intentions with people (I don't think any man I've ever been out with alone in the last twenty years has been at all confused about the likelihood or otherwise of us ending up in bed within hours), but if you "declare your intentions", will it make being friends uncomfortable if you're not on the same page or will it allow you to relax and enjoy the friendship for what it is?

And definitely make food part of the experience - how can you possible bond with anyone in Europe without sharing food?

[pocohauntus]

All these questions because I recently discovered that "normal" people tend to think differently about romantic issues than at least some of us INTJs (including me). Is there any Dr. Love out there to help us? Or at least give some valuable input on my dating reflections.
Look, I'm not "Dr. Love" but I am a "normal" person. So ask about whatever you'd like. But I do think the problem here (as Lolie mentioned) has to do with the way normal people vs INTJ/P's define dating. It really isn't such a difficult thing for us. We just kinda get together, talk, hug, kiss, etc., in the most literal sense, if you know what I mean. To us, INTJ's are in an entirely different stratosphere. We really don't "date" the way you do. And when we do happen to finally figure out that we're involved with someone who views life and love in a way we would never even dream of, it can be disconcerting to say the least.

[wotsamattaU]

So if I sense some sparks between us, but find it diffucult to get one on one time with her, would then such a "pre-date" as I schemed, formally just friendship, but with som romantic undertones (at least as an underlying motivational factor for my part), be a good solution? And if I find it hard to get alone with her, may I text her or phone her about this? Or does that just seem weird or a bit too sudden (with a "date" that is not a date, but somehow a date anyhow)?


Calagnethil, do you know much about her likes/dislikes? One way of getting to know her better would be to spend some time casually doing something which interests her. Examples: jogging, lectures, book stores, library, cafe' - just ask if she'd like to join you or meet you there later.

Often times when a girl is first asked out you are catching her off guard. So if she turns you down, wait a week or so and ask her again. She will be prepared by the second invitation - what she says to you then will likely be the true way she feels.

Another way of gauging how someone regards you is to get a little closer to them than you would normally. If they take a step back, then that's a sign they need their space. If they don't move away from you, they are comfortable with your presence and it is a good indicator. This is another situation where if you get a poor response the first time, try it again on a different day. The second time will tell the tale.

You can text or phone her after spending some time with her. Most women like that, as long as it's not too excessive. (too much too soon could scare them off)

If she is involved in any activities outside of school (clubs, volunteering, or such) if you could also lend a hand or join in then that would be another way of getting to know someone and see how compatible you two may be.

Asking for a date just out of the blue without showing any prior interest in her at all would be too surprising for most. The trouble many INTJ's experience is in over-thinking the situation. Waiting 6 months or more before you make your move is too long. Most people will have assumed you are not interested in them by that length of time and have moved on or given up all hope.

[K27]

I believe it's because they feel sexually attracted to all the girls they're with, but feel attracted to one more than the others in a non-sexual way (they might share interests, intellectual capacity for example), and that's what they feel is love; the combination sexual attraction + non-sexual attraction.

However, I think that even if the non-sexual part of the attraction is, ultimately, what makes the man say "this one girl I love", he would not call it love if the sexual part of the attraction was not there.
Maybe it's because I'm a bit asexual (an unusual bit to INTPs). sexual part of attraction comes after I confirms a partner as my SO. It's not a prerequisite.

Dunno. I love lots of people in my life. I'm sexually attracted to lots of people. Maybe it's when the two combine with unusual intensity.

When I reflect on the common denominators for the men I've loved in a romantic way, what stands out is that they're people I could know for the rest of my life and still not know everything there is to know about them intellectually, emotionally, and sexually - a feeling that there'll always be something more I want to learn about them.

Doesn't really answer the question, but it's the best I've got.
I'm rather simple on this. I just want to be happy. That's it.

[yepunsarang]

I think usually when I go out with a guy (just friendly business), the other person also feels the same way. We just mutually don't have to say anything cause it's obvious. But it becomes a problem with the "friend" starts acting "strange" without saying anything explicit about their feelings. It stinks---really. But other than that, it's usually easy to distinguish.

[QuoteRadar]

None. No such thing as a 100% platonic male-female solo hangout.

Yes there is... it's just that so few people are objective enough to realize it. Thank goodness for the few who are, because I'm a heterosocial girl (mostly likes hanging out with guys), and an extreme intorvert, so one-on-one hang-outs tend to happen a lot.

It's led to misunderstandings with some guys, unfortunately, but other guy friends have been really good about not confusing matters.

Honestly, I've even had 100% platonic hang-outs with a guy I liked at the time, because I didn't know how he felt but I knew his intention was to hang out and not date. Then again, I've been told I sometimes take objectivity to unrealistic extremes, so maybe it's just me.

[Juna Lu]

That's why there's a difference between friendship intimacy, romantic attraction and physical attraction. There have been plenty times I've experienced the friendship intimacy without the physical attraction. That part can be confusing.


Oh god yes! especially if the other person is sexually attracted and you think everything is going to plan until you become increasingly uncomfortable with their intimacy. This has happened to me two out of four relationships I have had so far. And then you just feel shallow and terrible and its a big mess. OR perhaps I am just shallow and made a big mess of things, but thats alright c=

[Baccara]

Shall we discuss the differences?

Say that it's never explicitly stated whether it's a date or whether it's hanging out, but it's an outing with another person nonetheless.

If it's never explicitly stated whether it' a "date," then it's probably not. "Dating" is a social construct, with a certain formality: it's about expectations, first impressions, rituals, and so on. Not really about what happens, but how it happens. I think dating also connotes a subconscious possibility of future commitment. In many cases, two people go on a date because they aren't well-acquainted, and are looking to get a better read on each other, because the attraction is chemical and there's always that little instinct whispering, "Compatible mate? Must see again?" Hanging out with someone, on the other hand, holds a much lower degree of expectation or commitment. Two people hang out because they want to spend time together, regardless of the result, and often because they already know each other pretty well and have found they like doing some of the same things. The goal is to have fun, whatever that involves. A romantic relationship may evolve over time, but that's not necessarily the initial intent.


"Would you like to go out to dinner with me?" has a different connotation than "I'm hungry. Oh, you are too? Hey, let's go grab a bite to eat then."

Agreed. When someone asks me out to dinner, I translate that to mean, "I'm attracted to you and a) want to see whether the chemistry's mutual; b) want to interact with you in a more selective setting, or c) maybe want to impress you just a bit so I can see more of you in the future." So my immediate though process is, Do I get good vibes from this guy? Am I attracted to or intrigued by him to the point where I want to pursue a possible romance with him? Superficial, but pretty straightforward: it’s either a yes or no answer.

Conversely, when someone wants to go grab a bite, I usually accept, because I translate that as, “Hey, I’m hungry and you happen to be right here; want to go get food?” Attraction and compatibility make no difference in this case, because there are no promises or expectations. If I go, I get food, and maybe have some good conversations, nothing more; if I don’t, nothing changes in my relationship with the guy in question. In fact, I think the informality of hanging out creates a much more relaxed, candid atmosphere, and possibly a more intimate friendship as a result.

[PortInStorm]

What this thread makes clear is that there is no clear definition, and I'd offer that it wouldn't matter if there was one. What truly matters is what the two people involved think it is, and what the other important people in their lives believe it is.

ex. if persons A and B in other relationships are one-on-one hanging out, it doesn't matter if the entire universe tells A and B's partners it's hanging out. If the partners are insecure or worried, and believe A and B are on a "date", that's all that's gonna matter. Perception is truly everything, and "definitions" are nothing.

[catzmeow]

As such I successfully evaded my first kiss until I was officially "going out" with a guy, and even then I only let him after two weeks of steady dating.

Wow, this explains why my boyfriend didn't kiss me until our 4th date. In fact, up until that date, he didn't touch me at all. No hand-holding, hugs, or anything. I was quite baffled by it. On that date, I wondered if he would kiss me, because he started holding my hands while we were (unsurprisingly for us) talking about politics. It was quite a lively conversation and he was very engaged, and I noticed that the hand-holding started right after he'd done more talking than I'd ever (to that point) seen him do.

In fact, I'd told my girlfriend that I thought he might be asexual or perhaps so vanilla sexually as to be of little interest to me, but when he kissed me passionately in the parking lot, he quickly disabused me of that notion.





catzmeow added to this post, 3 minutes and 47 seconds later...

Right. Like, how I took dance classes with a hot ENFP a year ago, and she went on a date with her now boyfriend a month later.

This is where the methodology that you would use to stalk the wiley INTJ doesn't work with an ENFP. We need more directness, i.e., I don't just want to hang out with you, I'm interested in DATING you.

Bear in mind, most ENFPs have platonic friends of the opposite sex. Those people may be interested in dating us, but if they never express this, we will take it for granted that we are just friends.

This happens with my ESFJ daughter all the time, she will be friends with a guy, and she'll be interested in him, but he gives her the friend vibe, so she loses interest, and then it turns out that he was interested in her all the time, but is too shy to express it. However, by then, he's hopelessly in the friend zone.




catzmeow added to this post, 5 minutes and 22 seconds later...

The trouble many INTJ's experience is in over-thinking the situation. Waiting 6 months or more before you make your move is too long. Most people will have assumed you are not interested in them by that length of time and have moved on or given up all hope.

totally true. ENFPs would have long ago given up on you and chalked it up to platonic friendship..."He's just not interested in me, in that way." Once we've processed you as disinterested, it's hard for us to revise the way in which we view you.

[Sxq]

I've been mistaken before on this subject. Oh, and in response to the above, I take WAY too long to make my move.

However, I've also had one-on-one hangouts with girls where it was extremely clear that it wasn't a date. A good example was when I went to the library to study for a few hours with a good female friend. She's one of the few people that I am comfortable talking about personal stuff with. I also think she wanted to take advantage of the fact that I am very good academically and will be one of the only people that will take a study session seriously - especially with an attractive female. :P