The Cuban Love-In Junket

[Rainman]

I dunno about the rest of you, but this makes me sick:

Dems Give Castro the Propaganda Opening He Needed. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

It is not bad enough that the "hate America first delegation" did a bang-up job of demeaning the country they were elected to serve:

"For the past 50 years, the United States has been swimming in the Caribbean Sea of delusion," said Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, D-Mo., who described the United States as "the isolated nation" compared to European countries which have diplomatic ties with Havana.

"This is the dawning of a new day," Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Ill., declared. "Fifty years of foolishness is over. It's time for the children to sit in the corner and the adults to take over."


But after all their insulting of our country, from foreign soil no less, we hear this:

The CBC members conceded there were limited discussions about human rights abuses in Cuba.

"We didn't talk about it much," said Rep. Marcia Fudge, D-Ohio. "You don't go into someone's house and insult them."

Yeah, just make sure you run far away from your own house when you deign to insult us. I am ashamed to have to admit I am from Ohio. WTH were my buckeye buddies thinking when they elected this piece of work?

What's next? A love-in with Chavez in Venezuela?

[Solus]

I may be missing something but I fail to see anything positive resulting from the American strategy towards Cuba in the last 50 years or so. After all, it's not that the States are known for their consistency in international relations. Human rights, democracy etc. can't be the reason. The relationship with China since Kissinger, the Taliban in the 1980s, Saudi Arabia etc...

[RBM]

I may be missing something but I fail to see anything positive resulting from the American strategy towards Cuba in the last 50 years or so. After all, it's not that the States are known for their consistency in international relations. Human rights, democracy etc. can't be the reason. The relationship with China since Kissinger, the Taliban in the 1980s, Saudi Arabia etc...

Generally I see room for improvement. Besides the OP is a FOX source and generally plays heavy duty partisan politics. That's not a recipe for broad improvement. The OPer is obviously heavily invested in the same partisan politics.

Full Disclosure: I think both the US 2 party system is totally corrupted.

[SeaCzar]

I have to agree with Rainman. Cuba has been run by a bunch of Stalinist thugs since the late 1950s, whose "reveloucion" has managed to create a society that is equal in that all are in virtual poverty. Cuba is three from the bottom in terms of purchasing power and GDP per capita (behind Haiti and Bolivia) in the Western Hemisphere. Both Castros are way overdue for dirt naps.

At least Chavez was democratically elected. They should send the posse that went to Cuba to North Korea and let them suck up to Kim Jong Il next.

[Medicine Man]

I have to agree with Solus. America has been run by a bunch of corrupt thugs since the late 1960s, whose "free-market economy" has managed to create a society that is equal in that all but a few are in virtual poverty. America is on its way to the bottom in terms of purchasing power and GDP per capita in the Western Hemisphere. Both Bushes are way overdue for dirt naps.

At least Reagan was democratically elected. They should send the extreme right-wingers to North Korea and let them plan an idiotic war with Kim Jong Il next.

[INTJRyan]

Let me get this straight.

Selling our country to communist China for cheap shit at walmart: good.
Any contact with communist Cuba: bad.

Our policy toward Cuba makes absolutely no sense and I am happy there are finally politicians saying that exact thing.

[LaoTzu]

I have to agree with Rainman. Cuba has been run by a bunch of Stalinist thugs since the late 1950s, whose "reveloucion" has managed to create a society that is equal in that all are in virtual poverty. Cuba is three from the bottom in terms of purchasing power and GDP per capita (behind Haiti and Bolivia) in the Western Hemisphere.

Sanctions are a bitch aren't they?

As for Obama's 'bad mouthing America' while abroad, maybe the OP needs to check his sources a little better......

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(You can skip to 3:05 if Hannity makes you as sick as he makes me.)

[SeaCzar]

Touche

I have to agree with Solus. America has been run by a bunch of corrupt thugs since the late 1960s, whose "free-market economy" has managed to create a society that is equal in that all but a few are in virtual poverty. America is on its way to the bottom in terms of purchasing power and GDP per capita in the Western Hemisphere.

Agreed on corruption. I believe that is the basic definition of governments, and that the only variance is by degree.

I would argue here that economic liberalism, the Anglo-American model if you will, has served the US, and indeed most of the rest of the world, better than the socialist/communist model (by 1976, Britain was bankrupt and getting loans from the IMF). The lack of oversight, and intelligence of those who should have known better, got us into the current mess (I would argue here that they actually did know better, but they were a bunch of geedy bastards with a "reality-be-damned" attitude).

Both Bushes are way overdue for dirt naps.
At least Reagan was democratically elected.

There is more than enough blame to go around politically, to put it mildly. I am no fan of Bush II, but I think that Obama, if he plays his cards right, could be the next Reagan.

They should send the extreme right-wingers to North Korea and let them plan an idiotic war with Kim Jong Il next.

Agreed. Provided this includes the religious right.

[jesse]

Communism is bad*, mmkay kids?
* Unless they are a massive country with a seemingly infinite pool of workers which can be exploited for months on end without proper compenstation which our companies can use to sell us back cheap products by the boatload!

Since this is mainstream media, put your thinking cap on tight and take these things with a grain or salt, or two just to be on the safe side. Cuba has not been a threat to the US. It did host Soviet made nukes from what I understand, after this, they've been about as docile as a barking pitbull on a leash. A lot of noise and empty promises thrown by both sides, yet nothing has happened. Besides, the fact that Cuba still has the Castros in power along with the Communist party, this US trade embargo is obviously not functioning.

You have to admit it was amusing how two members of the delegation were priests and supposedly gave sermons in Cuba. Simply impossible to separate any religious connotation from political visits conducted by the US eh? :D

[Rainman]

I purposely waited to reply to the responders in this thread because I knew it would not take long for the other shoe to drop:

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Fidel Castro said Tuesday that President Barack Obama "misinterpreted" his brother Raul's sentiments toward the United States and bristled at any suggestion Cuba should free political prisoners or reduce official fees on money sent to the island from the U.S

Now I would not doubt it if RBM will again claim that, because this comes from FOX, that somehow means Castro did not say these things. But that is besides the point of my reason for replying. My reason for replying is that those who replied that they thought we needed to open up to Cuba clearly view the world through an idealist set of filters, rather than looking at the reality of the way the world is and how international relations work, especially if you are a free and democratic country.

None of the respondents who advocate opening ties with Cuba have been able to identify one, single benefit to the USA for doing so. I am sure we all realize there would be plenty of benefits to Cuba. And the comparision to China is naieve, at best, and shows your refusal to acknowledge reality vs. your idealist views. There are many clear benefits of dealing with and engaging China, even though we do not agree with their political system, not the least of which is trade and their labor market's ability to feed a free market system. So these are the benefits we achieve from engaging China, and Russia, and other large economies who have something to bring to the table... I should also not have to point out that China and Russia are nuclear powers that sit on the UN SEC council. Cuba is not.

So here is my question: You advocate opening up to Cuba, which would bring many benefits to that country and its leadership. Yet in this new outburst by Castro the Dictator, we see he does not wish to "give" anything. It shall remain the status quo in the Castro domain. So what clear and unequivocal benefit(s) can you elucidate that the US would gain from opening up our relations with Cuba?

[LaoTzu]

"I am sure we all realize there would be plenty of benefits to Cuba. "

Actually, my friend just got back from vacationing there... the Cuban people she talked to don't want US/Cuban relations to open up. They like it the way it is, and they really don't want anything to do with the US. There's actually some consternation at the thought of relations softening. (Cuba has good relations with Canada, and EU nations)

But, that's just people on the ground.... what do they know...

That being said, if nothing comes of it; Cubans wont mind.



"clear and unequivocal benefit(s)"?? : You wont look like such idiots?? :/

[Rainman]

Actually, my friend just got back from vacationing there... the Cuban people she talked to don't want US/Cuban relations to open up. They like it the way it is, and they really don't want anything to do with the US. There's actually some consternation at the thought of relations softening. (Cuba has good relations with Canada, and EU nations)

But, that's just people on the ground.... what do they know...

That being said, if nothing comes of it; Cubans wont mind.

All the more reason to question why US lawmakers are making such a big push. There is no tangible benefit to the US for doing it, and now you are claiming the people of Cuba don't want it. The only ones who would stand to benefit from it are the ruling class in Cuba. Given what we know about them, and their practices, are you really interested in rewarding this type of governance?

[HeyZeus]

Obama has a long-term strategy to elicit honest dialogue. Bush listened to no one, and tried to coerce everyone. There is a lot of anger that needs to be tempered because of the disastrous (as in Iraq on the basis it was undertaken...thank Jojoba for Petraeus) consequences of Bush's unilateralism and drunken whack-a-mole geopolitics. Read your Bob Woodward insider accounts (State of Denial and The War Within) for a perspective on Bush's decisive, G-d-approved, gut-based decision making that gradually began to realize a need for a coherent strategy when the initial action did not generate spontaneous favorable results. Bush talked like it wasn't even his war--pawning off the strategy responsibility on cabinet members and generals--Dubber--the strategy comes BEFORE the war, dawg.

Other countries have reason to feel bullied, and need to blow some steam. There will come a day, diplomatically, when the Obama administration will remind some of these countries of their own regrettable actions, but we will do so behind the scenes. We're tough enough to take some licks publicly. And we have a more transparent government than many of them realize. They'll blow steam for a while, and then remember what we're capable of and our many positive aspects. I'd rather be talking to Cuba and Venezuela than ignoring them while they cozy to Iran. I'd rather be talking to Iran than not.

Is the worry we will appear politically weak? What tangible negative effect does that produce? Our economy will recover, and our military is unmatched. Where's the harm?

I counsel patience here.

[cms]

I recommend a couple of you take the time and watch this Documentary, and then do your own research into the information displayed. Before you continue on with your ill informed opinions on the US's "international relations" with Latin America..
(just saying)

"Award winning journalist John Pilger examines the role of Washington in America's manipulation of Latin American politics during the last 50 years leading up to the struggle by ordinary people to free themselves from poverty and racism. Since the mid 19th Century Latin America has been the 'backyard' of the US, a collection of mostly vassal states whose compliant and often brutal regimes have reinforced the 'invisibility' of their majority peoples. The film reveals similar CIA policies to be continuing in Iraq, Iran and Lebanon. The rise of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez despite ongoing Washington backed efforts to unseat him in spite of his overwhelming mass popularity, is democratic in a way that we have forgotten or abandoned in the west. True Democracy being a solid 80% voter turnout in support of Chavez in over 6 elections."

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[charolastra]

So, Rainman, you preferred Batista then? Because, you know, Castro went to the US for help getting rid of Batista first before having to move to the Soviet Union. The US propped up that regime which in many respects was far worse than Castro, simply shorter lived. It is largely because of our trade sanctions that Cuba is in the state it's in now- before US sanctions it was one of the most (if not THE most) developed Latin American nation. Then they suddenly lost access to their closest trade partner.

We propped up so many horrific dictators in Latin America. Pinochet, the Dirty War Junta in Argentina, Rafael Trujillo, and Batista among other US sponsored terrorism and coups. This is not a "down with the US" rant, it's a simple fact that our government has systematically destroyed any vestiges of democracy over the past 100 years to our Southern neighbors. The situations we have with them today are the result of these policy actions.

Any opening up of Cuba would be mutually beneficial. A whole new world of business in resettling the Miami Cubans would emerge. More humanitarian aid could come through. Not to mention educational exchanges, open diplomatic relations with one of our closest neighbors, and the ability to travel freely.

I planned on going to college to focus my studies on Cuba. However, Bush stopped allowing study abroad there shortly before I started school. I had to shift my Latin American studies major to Mexican-American relations. I would love the ability to pursue a graduate degree in Cuba so needless to say, I'm very personally invested in Cuba's welfare.

[Lucid]

Besides... we trade with China. You're trying to tell me that Cuba's worse than China? Please.

[Rainman]

So, Rainman, you preferred Batista then?

Strawman.

It is largely because of our trade sanctions that Cuba is in the state it's in now- before US sanctions it was one of the most (if not THE most) developed Latin American nation. Then they suddenly lost access to their closest trade partner.

Allowing the soviets to build nukes on your soil can lead to that...yes.

Any opening up of Cuba would be mutually beneficial.

You have not identified one thing that would be beneficial to the US.

A whole new world of business in resettling the Miami Cubans would emerge.

I think you should ask the Miami Cubans if they want to go back. They fled Cuba because of Castro. Do you actually believe that just because the US opens relations with Castro's regime they will want to go back? Heck, I think if you probed that community you would see they are some of the biggest opponents to normalized relations with Cuba. They want Castro out, first and foremost.

More humanitarian aid could come through.

Benefit to Cuba. And strongman dictatorial regimes, more often than not, grab all aid and decide which of their political allies get it. Most in real need get nothing. Look at how this works in Africa where there are strongmen dictators.

Not to mention educational exchanges, open diplomatic relations with one of our closest neighbors, and the ability to travel freely.

And how freely would the people of Cuba be allowed to travel? Again, you have not cited a single, significant benefit to the US. Only perceived benefits to the people of Cuba. Ones you cannot possibly know if they would be realized because you appear to have idealized the Castro regime into a harmless puppy.





Rainman added to this post, 6 minutes and 28 seconds later...

Besides... we trade with China. You're trying to tell me that Cuba's worse than China? Please.

I believe I addressed that. And since I did, I was waiting for you to identify benefits to the US from trading with Cuba that would meet or exceed those benefits of having normalized relations with China. What is the world starving for, marketwise, that can only be purveyed from Cuba? Cigars? Sugar? Rum? Nah. And while you are at it, could you please address the point of China being a nuclear power while Cuba is not?

My best friend here in SoCal is from a Cuban family. His father fled in 1965, and he was born here shortly after. I have discussed this at length with him and his father over dinner. You would be hard pressed to find two patriotic Americans who are more against opening relations with Cuba. So my next question is then: Who would know better? A person who lived under the Castro regime, or someone who spent their whole life in the safety and democracy of the USA? I'm jus' sayin'...

[Lucid]

I believe I addressed that. And since I did, I was waiting for you to identify benefits to the US from trading with Cuba that would meet or exceed those benefits of having normalized relations with China. What is the world starving for, marketwise, that can only be purveyed from Cuba? Cigars? Sugar? Rum? Nah. And while you are at it, could you please address the point of China being a nuclear power while Cuba is not?

Your point appears to be that the US should not have dealings with oppressive communist regimes. But the US has dealings with several oppressive communist regimes. There's no reason not to open talks with Cuba... except the "Communists are bad, m'kay!" irrationality of the past several decades. We don't have to suddenly be BFFs with Castro.

My best friend here in SoCal is from a Cuban family. His father fled in 1965, and he was born here shortly after. I have discussed this at length with him and his father over dinner. You would be hard pressed to find two patriotic Americans who are more against opening relations with Cuba. So my next question is then: Who would know better? A person who lived under the Castro regime, or someone who spent their whole life in the safety and democracy of the USA? I'm jus' sayin'...

While fascinating, this is anecdotal evidence. And "These Americans of Cuban descent don't like it" is not a substantial reason for or against anything. And your use of the term 'patriotic American' is both random and useless. Show me an American who isn't patriotic.
Who would know better? How about some people who do diplomacy and foreign policy for a living. And again, the same can be said of China.

I think the source of your righteous indignation at easing the sanctions against Cuba is partisan irrationality. It's a lot of huffing and puffing over something the US does all the time and which, really, isn't worth getting all lathered up about.

[cms]

Strawman.



Allowing the soviets to build nukes on your soil can lead to that...yes.



You have not identified one thing that would be beneficial to the US.



I think you should ask the Miami Cubans if they want to go back. They fled Cuba because of Castro. Do you actually believe that just because the US opens relations with Castro's regime they will want to go back? Heck, I think if you probed that community you would see they are some of the biggest opponents to normalized relations with Cuba. They want Castro out, first and foremost.



Benefit to Cuba. And strongman dictatorial regimes, more often than not, grab all aid and decide which of their political allies get it. Most in real need get nothing. Look at how this works in Africa where there are strongmen dictators.



And how freely would the people of Cuba be allowed to travel? Again, you have not cited a single, significant benefit to the US. Only perceived benefits to the people of Cuba. Ones you cannot possibly know if they would be realized because you appear to have idealized the Castro regime into a harmless puppy.





Rainman added to this post, 6 minutes and 28 seconds later...



I believe I addressed that. And since I did, I was waiting for you to identify benefits to the US from trading with Cuba that would meet or exceed those benefits of having normalized relations with China. What is the world starving for, marketwise, that can only be purveyed from Cuba? Cigars? Sugar? Rum? Nah. And while you are at it, could you please address the point of China being a nuclear power while Cuba is not?

My best friend here in SoCal is from a Cuban family. His father fled in 1965, and he was born here shortly after. I have discussed this at length with him and his father over dinner. You would be hard pressed to find two patriotic Americans who are more against opening relations with Cuba. So my next question is then: Who would know better? A person who lived under the Castro regime, or someone who spent their whole life in the safety and democracy of the USA? I'm jus' sayin'...



You didn't watch the Documentary did you?

[ElstonGunn]

I have to agree with Solus. America has been run by a bunch of corrupt thugs since the late 1960s, whose "free-market economy" has managed to create a society that is equal in that all but a few are in virtual poverty.

Just since the '60s?


I am no fan of Bush II, but I think that Obama, if he plays his cards right, could be the next Reagan.

Meaning that he could cut funding for research in renewable energy by 90 percent, take $270,000 from oilmen to "redecorate" the White House after giving their industry major tax cuts, cut $140 billion in social programs, repeatedly cut taxes even though capital investment decreased between 1973-75 and 1979-82 (periods with historically low corporate income taxes) and investment increased between 1975-79 (periods with slightly higher corporate taxes), cut Social Security disability benefits for 350,000 people thereby forcing them to go back to work (including people who were ruled unfit by both their doctors and state officials), eliminating free school lunches for over a million poor children, preside over an economic plan that would see the income of the wealthiest 1 percent of the country's rise 77 percent while the lowest 40 percent saw a small decline in income, continue to fund a bunk missile defense system even after it failed four tests, and of course, sell arms to the Iranians and, illegaly, by US law, funnel the profits to Nicaraguan rebels because the popularly elected government there will cut into the profits of American corporations, and then lie about it to the American people?

I certainly hope not.


So what clear and unequivocal benefit(s) can you elucidate that the US would gain from opening up our relations with Cuba?

It's simple. We'd take away Castro's scapegoat. A little while ago I read that the Cuban government blames everything on the US embargo. If you're driving around in a rusted out '57 Chevy with a dozen people crammed into it, it's the embargo's fault. If you can't get clean drinking water, it's the embargo's fault. If you stub your toe, it's the embargo's fault.

Lifting the embargo on Cuba would take away a major part of the Cuban government's propaganda toolbox.

[Indy]

So.......does that mean the US can finally start to -legally- buy Cuban cigars now? (Not that there is anything wrong with the Dominican ones)

[Henry]

I dunno about the rest of you, but this makes me sick:

Dems Give Castro the Propaganda Opening He Needed. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

It is not bad enough that the "hate America first delegation" did a bang-up job of demeaning the country they were elected to serve:

What's next? A love-in with Chavez in Venezuela?

Do you expect the queer-lovin, Texas-hatin, raise-taxes-on-the-rich-3% socialists to take your posts seriously? If so, I would recommend avoiding Fox News histrionics like "hate America first delegation" and "love-in".

We all know that even talking to evil-doin socialists like Chavez is anti-American, and that when we go abroad we should be doing nothing but issuin impossible demands followed quickly by a bunch o' cruise missiles in the ass. But lets at least try to have a convosatushion without characaterizin the other perty in an unrizonible, herstronical menner.

So what clear and unequivocal benefit(s) can you elucidate that the US would gain from opening up our relations with Cuba?

I believe in these things called "free trade" and "comparative advantage". So, like, we make high value-added goods like automobiles, airplanes, medical equipment, capital goods, and farm equipment and sell them to Cubans. This creates these things called "jobs". "Jobs" are good. To pay for these goods, Cubans will sell us things that they are good at making, like "Cuban Cigars". "Cuban Cigars" are also good, or so I'm told.

[eternaltriangle]

You guys all do realize how easy it is to get around the embargo/travel ban. Just go to Canada which never cut off trade with Cuba. All of the Commies (except Kim John-Il) have realized since the 80's that the whole Communism thing isn't working out. America fought a war in Vietnam for almost a decade and lost, yet now they have McDonald's. Fidel Castro is about to die, and well let us say that Raoul clearly did not get the cojones or looks in that family. America-bashing is about the only thing that could have saved the Castro regime.

What I find especially funny is that right-wingers are now bashing Democrats for currying favour with dictatorships and ignoring human rights (which should absolutely be US policy). Once upon a time a Republican Nixon went to China, while a lily-livered Jimmy Carter cut off American support for the Shah of Iran.

America is a declining hegemon, China is a rising colossus. America cannot afford to make friends with people based on their domestic system of government. America cannot foot the bills of being the world's policeman either. It needs to build strategic alliances and pursue American national interests no matter the costs.

Incidentally save me the sob stories about disappointed Cuban exiles in America. Polling shows that Cubans support Obama's move, and Obama by a large margin (which is a surprise because they are a traditionally Republican voting bloc).

[Rainman]

To pay for these goods, Cubans will sell us things that they are good at making, like "Cuban Cigars". "Cuban Cigars" are also good, or so I'm told.

Smoking causes lung cancer. Surgeon General even said so. Why would AGW-loving socialists want a product in trade that would further global warming (and harm the ozone layer, cause yellow teeth, and oh yeah, that cancer thing)? I've heard cancer is bad, but that is just an opinion from my dad who suffered from it. I have no direct experience, so you will have to excuse me.

[Henry]

Smoking causes lung cancer. Surgeon General even said so. Why would AGW-loving socialists want a product in trade that would further global warming (and harm the ozone layer, cause yellow teeth, and oh yeah, that cancer thing)? I've heard cancer is bad, but that is just an opinion from my dad who suffered from it. I have no direct experience, so you will have to excuse me.

Is this whole thread a Colbert-style joke? In addition to the major issues I pointed out above (which you continue with), now you're countering with an argument that smoking is bad therefore we should limit trade with countries with a comparative advantage in tobacco products?

[LaoTzu]

I was under the impression that INTJ's were autonomous thinkers...

I second the Colbert comment, this thread has taken a somewhat surreal feel to it.