INFJ Depression(?) Help

[WaeV]

There's this INFJ I know (let's call her Jane) who used to live in this town, then moved away freshman year. Just this December she moved back. Starting in November she and my friend, we'll call him Matt, were just starting to hang out out of the blue. They had been friends before she started going to a different school, and Matt even confessed to me that he liked her. A week or two after they start this she had to leave her private school and returned to public.

She has mostly study halls at this point, but manages to get into Matt and my Music Theory class - just to sit in. She sits between us (which I resented at the time - Matt and I liked to goof off) but I let them alone.
So now it's early January, and Jane thinks things are moving too slow - Matt isn't taking any initiative. So in one of their classes together she takes his hand. I give them some space, and they walk out of class together holding hands.

Jane - INFJ, 9w1
Matt - INFP

So that was thursday. Matt misses Friday school and the ski trip we had planned on the weekend. It turns out that he misinterpreted her actions such that he thought she expected a kiss that same day she took his hand. Knowing that he's INFP with Fi as his primary function (a swirling torrent of inner emotions), he got to thinking and over-thinking. He was so overcome with anxiety over Jane that he was physically sick for three days. So now Jane thinks she has this curse that makes guys sick.

So Matt clearly won't go out with her NOW, and he rebuffs her at every turn, doesn't look at her. She's heartbroken (again), and I try to console her and to be a friend over the next three months. She constantly talks about how she is pathetic. I ask her how she can disapprove of her own actions. For example, I say, a lot of people have ridiculed me for making a watergun, but hey!, I think it's fun so it doesn't matter to me. She says that's that's probably one of the reasons she's seeing a psychiatrist weekly.

So after three months she is FINALLY interested in another guy, let's say Dave.

Dave - ISFP

So she gets dave to go to the movies with her, and they have a great time. They laughed at how horrible the movie was, they eat at red Robin, they don't want to go home so they go for a walk in the park. Jane gets cold and Dave holds her... She says it was the best day of her life.

Today, Matt sends her the following message while IMing with her:

I already talked to him and I know you won't like the answer but he's responding the same way I did, he feels, like I did, that you come on way too strong. We both kind of wondered why you always see fit to skip the whole let's hang out before showing too much interest phase. Maybe it was different in your last school or whatever. shrug And seeing as how we're both really cynical people, he also thought that you take having a relationship way too serious and also kind of act like you depend on having one.

needless to say, she is heartbroken again. Betrayed in the past, betrayed now by her former crush; her hopes dashed. She signs off after telling me this. I call Bert, her only other real friend at this school that I know of, and explain the whole thing (At this point I'm worried that she's slitting her wrists or something). He calls her house to talk to her but she's "in her room' say her parents.

So I write her a long note:
well, that is the way he thinks
hey where'd you go?
Anyways, my analysis
is that you DO act as though you depend on having a relationship
and let me finish
b/c I don't mean this the way it sounds
initially
you do act that way; you also act as though you're pathetic
you ACT this way
you SEEM this way
but you are NOT this way
the same way you told me that you can disapprove of your own actions
see
what appears to others (and yourself - I suppose I mean other than me and potentially Bert) as you just leeching onto guys
is probably due to your enneagram
see, I'm a 5
so I'm all about omniscience
and that's easy!
I can learn
knowledge is everywhere
you're a 9
so you're all about love
and that's hard
love is hard to find
and so, based on what little i know of your past
you've been trying to find love ever since
surely it exists somewhere
and as you look and find none
you look harder and harder
and try your best
out all your energy into it
so
If that's true
then I would say the best thing is to look for alternate forms of love
romance isn't everything
Now I don't know how a 9 thinks
or should think or whatever
well, let's look at it from a 5's perspective
suppose I could never learn
no learning books / whatever
no classes / teachers
work, to replace them i guess, but I'm not geting anything out of it
lol sounds a lot like calculus XD
supposing that was true
well
I don't need to know vector calculus to continue learning
though when one thinks of learning we think college courses etc
there's all kinds
i can learn to paint
I can learn to write music
i can learn to meditate, I dunno
so in the same way
as a romantic
you should learn to soak up non-romantic forms of love
your friends, your family
give food to a pantry i dunno
whatever you think will increase the love in the world
another example
suppose I can't learn - i can still open a university
and enable countless others to learn
and eventually
someday
I'll be able to use the university I built

I'm very worried for her.

[Samoan Corleone]

I've been in a similar situation. Has she read/reacted to your note yet?

[Silence181]

You sound Like an incredibly good friend. Jane would do well to find out what Dave actually said instead of listening to is second hand as she did. Then she could form a decision if this Dave character is worth keeping around.

Or you could say the hell with it and go out with Jane yourself. Just a suggestion.

Oh, and you do realize you revealed Matt's name is Mike, right?

[WaeV]

I've been in a similar situation. Has she read/reacted to your note yet?
No, she hasn't.

You sound Like an incredibly good friend. Jane would do well to find out what Dave actually said instead of listening to is second hand as she did. Then she could form a decision if this Dave character is worth keeping around.
Yeah, though I suspect that the conversation did take place, and that if he didn't feel that way before he may now.

Or you could say the hell with it and go out with Jane yourself. Just a suggestion.
Heh, tbh that thought has crossed my mind. I'm still chasing that INFP girl though.

Oh, and you do realize you revealed Matt's name is ---, right?
Whatever; they don't read the forum and even if they did it would be wy to similar to not notice. Edited it out, though it's obvious from your post.

[Samoan Corleone]

As a Type 4, I'd tell her that she is who she is, and that there are some people who would welcome a personality like hers with open arms, and some who won't - who would want to take things a bit slower. I'd say that she just hasn't met, or had feelings for, anyone of the former, who'd love to jump into things. That being said, what was "cynical" Dave thinking when he held her? That she wasn't going to make a big deal out of it?

I hope the stereotype of INFXs being emos isn't true. Hopefully she isn't slitting her wrists.

[WaeV]

yeah, I don't think that Matt's account can be trusted as Dave's opinion. It may be that Dave thinks something along those lines, but written from Matt's perspective...

No worries, I know two other INFJs who aren't emo in the slightest.

[Sequoia]

You do seem to be approaching it right; there is not much more you can do but get her to realise her own self worth. Until she does, these patterns are going to repeat themselves unfortunately.

This is true of all personality types, but NF's will be the most intense in experiencing them.

[ranwayslo]

WaeV I applaud your efforts, but I am not surprised she hasn't responded. You didn't really leave room for a response. You sort of told her whats what and left it at that. You need to give her the opportunity to tell you what is going on. Encourage her to talk it out. You may know exactly what is wrong and may be able to tell her, but in order for her to work through this then she must be given the chance to process it herself. *Incoming cliche* "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."
No matter how right you are and how flawless your logic is. The key here is to ask a personally provocative question. Not sexual etc...but a question about a topic that you know she can't resist answering. Get her talking to you, drop subtle hints about the solution. She will begin to get the drift and in the end she will come to the obvious conclusion. She has to because the human need to survive won't allow her to continue believing that she is worthless. This can be an "icky" and "feelings" intense process but it is necessary. Below is a real life example.

Me: I need some help interpreting Shakespeare's Sonnet # 55. You know if it was math I could ace this, but poetry confuses me. What do you think he was saying?
Her: Thats easy he was...
Me: Wow! I never realized there was so much hidden between the lines you are very perceptive.
Her: Not really.
Me: Why do you say that?
Her: Well you know I was seeing...and he just out of no where stopped talking to me and the other night he was with...
Me: He is a real douche, you can do so much better.
Her: Yeah well your nice but it doesn't change what happened.
Me: You know we all get roflstomped by love from time to time, but you know you can talk to me if you need to.
Her: [She went silent on me so I sort of took it from the top]
Me: While I have you here, do you feel like helping me with another Sonnet?
Her: I gotta go soon.
Me: Ok, but it is really just one line. "So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
You live in this, and dwell in lover's eyes." What is this supposed to mean?
Her: He is declaring that....
Me: I wonder what it must be like to love someone that much.
Her: It sucks. You just get...
Me: You know, It seems to me like maybe you need to talk. If you want to talk it out I am here. I promise I will just listen and anything you say stays between us.
Her: [Messaged me for four hours straight]

There was a lot more, but I "feel" over exposed just sharing this much.
1. Get her talking. (Use your N, and suspend your J until your N tells you the time is right.)
2. Keep her talking. (The information will flow before she realizes it.)
3. Validate her feelings. (Compliment her, Platonic non romantic compliments, unless you have an agenda. If you have an agenda, now is not the time.)
4. When she asks you for your opinion. Be general and positive.
5. When the time is right tell her what you think, use the information obtained through the course of the conversation to reinforce your original message and remember to be gentle.


If you think about it, the pain caused by negative emotions is like a poison that colors everything in its own tint. It has to be purged before healing can occur. This woman in the example above needed to get things out of her heart and mind to see what she was doing to herself. Once she expressed these things she was able to gain perspective and get free of the negativity. It was like watching someone trying to plug a dam with their finger and drowning in the overflow. The only thing lost in the "flood" was the hope that maybe this guy wasn't really a douche and that they would magically find everlasting love together. Once she realized that she was needlessly suffering to protect an illusion it was easy for her to move on. We are very close friends to this day.

My two cents and worth exactly what you pay for it.

[Sinequanon]

This is not depression. It's heartbreak. It's normal. Don't freak out about it. Listen, don't dictate. And don't use systems to describe people who aren't in a good state. There's little that's more dehumanizing than to be literally told "you're a number" when you're already feeling like shit.

(And, by the way, I seem to recall a certain "5" who was all gaga over someone/something that wasn't a book. Things aren't as simple as 5's and 9's. :))

[WaeV]

but I am not surprised she hasn't responded
I made this thread an hour after leaving the note.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."
No matter how right you are and how flawless your logic is.
I was actually worried about her short-term, not long term. I wanted to reach out to her then, when she was hurting, not to solve her life problems in a night. Today she seemed fine, and thanked Bert for the checkup call.

Encourage her to talk it out.
I will definitely work on this.

Listen, don't dictate.
Advice taken.

[WaeV]

Well, so I confessed my feelings to the other INFP after a month of nothing but waning affections for her. She respectfully copped out, which I'm fine with. So that's done with.
[/background information]

So, Jane talked to Dave. Dave said that he had no feelings for her. Jane pleaded that it was only one date and too early to pass judgement. Since then it's been a sort of indifferent relationship on his part. Jane and Dave would hang out, but he would sit on the opposite side of the couch, etc. She's been talking to me so expectant and confused about what he thinks. I don't know Dave so well, but I try to offer help. When I got back from vacation, Jane was talking excitedly about her relationship again, but I had learned from Charlie that while she had been happily texting Dave from away, Dave and Matt were laughing at her messages and shouting things like "Oh my god! Stop texting so much!" I must also admit that pondering the situation over and over, "mind to heart" as was said in another thread, I decided that I had / could develop feelings for her and take over Dave's position.

So she was asking my opinion excitedly as usual and I just couldn't lie to her and explained what I knew about Dave. She was heartbroken again, though not as badly as when she received the message that Matt had sent to her before. She kept saying 'What's wrong with me?", then "I know. It must come down to that I just don't look good enough." I tried to console her. the last point was especially easy, as she's absolutely stunning. She switched to "Maybe I deserve to be treated like dirt," and "I should stick to the abusive guys. At least they make me feel wanted even if it's only for my looks." me continued to talk for at least twenty minutes, and I related how Charlie had just the other day given Matt and Dave shit for how they've been treating Jane. I said that he, like me and her, understand that need for sincerity in a relationship. unfortunately, she had to sign off.

Later, I started talking with Charlie (His IM status was "WaeV talktalk plz"). he reveals that the situation is much more serious than he thought, though I had guessed at some of it. Jane decided that he was trustworthy due to that he defended her against Matt I suppose. She poured out to him, using him as "a pillar of support" Charlie said, and he was glad to help when he learned of her situation. Jane, not even fifteen, had been abused by her "boyfriend" five years her elder in just about any way you can imagine. He went to jail, she got diagnosed with chronic depression. She has even attempted... god it's just so horrible. She's a fantastic person, and while her relationship with Dave lasted, even though he was so indifferent, she was so cheerful and bubbly.

I want to help her, and I think that one of the best ways would be to provide emotional support not only as a friend. She said that she craves affection, and I don't want her to go to one of the abusive guys. I understand that relationships where one depends on the other for emotional support are generally bad, but I'm prepared to take it. Heck, I'm looking for some myself. Once she's in a relationship she just blossoms and is as happy as can be, so it's not like I'd be dragging an anchor as Matt and Dave might think. I take enjoyment from her enjoyment.

She says that Charlie, Bert, and I are her only real friends.

To put all our types in one place:
Me - INTJ 5w4
Jane - INFJ 9w1
Charlie - INTJ 5w6
Bert - INFJ
Matt - INFP
Dave - ISFP

Also, this song is extremely relevant: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[ranwayslo]

WaeV,

If you like her go for it!:)

I was very tempted to put a lot of advice here about being cautious with a girl who has had such a traumatic history, but I think that you have shown good judgment and a strong character on this forum.

So, if you like her go for it!:)

[WaeV]

Thank you very much for the support and vote of character. ;D

[blossom]

I'd have to agree with almost everything Ranwayslo said--it's pretty much spot on. You also have done a great job responding, but I would continue in the manner Ranwayslo mentioned. I've never been abused, but I am somewhat co-dependent in that I love being in a relationship and do not do well without being in one. Now, I always choose the person very carefully, and when in a relationship I'm not at all clingy or needy since I like lots of space, but I would not be surprised if many female INFJs sort of "need" to be in a relationship or then have strong relationships with family and friends to be at 100%. The best way I can describe it is to say that it's like all my instincts are screaming at me to "find love" or be in a close loving relationship, and until I am I cannot devote all my energies to fully be myself at my best.

One of the wonderful things about being in a relationship with an INTJ is that their calm logic rationality balances out my emotional side very well (it makes me less emotional), and you will probably find this is true with her. However, as Sequoia pointed out, it does seem that she has some insecurity issues and that could be a problem since she needs to fix those herself. I would echo the suggestion that you might find a relationship with her really rewarding if she isn't too messed up from the previous experiences. She may also need to learn how to have a relationship not solely based on physical acts. Good luck with however you decide to handle the situation--she's lucky to have you as a friend!

[Zsych]

I was going to say that she should talk to Dave and see what he thinks, but I think it might be better if you found out the situation and the nature of the conversation from Dave yourself. See if he wasn't just conforming to Matt's view in the conversation out of some variant of peer pressure. See if he likes her.

As for your friend, I can appreciate people being emotionally open. Unfortunate being burned like this. I'd actually acknowledge the criticism in her case. Perhaps she should be somewhat more careful in her actions towards people she likes (if not necessarily her feelings).

[wotsamattaU]

I was seeking the advice of an INFJ friend the other day, to help me understand another INFJ girlfriend here who is going through a very rough time. I mentioned how things tend to bundle up on her, and her tendency to always express the 'woes' and never any 'yays'.

She told me that INFJ tends to focus on the woes - the yays go largely unnoticed especially if the INFJ is already depressed and defensive. There can be a tendency to focus on what differs, rather than on what's great.

Also that INFJ tend to take things personally OR relate it to personal experience.

When INFJ talks - don't interrupt
When INFJ talks - don't judge or give your own opinion unless asked (which would be at the end anyway)

She mentioned that being face to face is best when you want to hear them out, and it's better if you're involved in some sort of task (walking a dog as an example). In this way they don't feel as if you are pressuring them and they can take sharing their thoughts at their own pace.

It was also mentioned you don't want to become their emotional dumping ground. They hate that they can tend to do this - just be gentle about it to keep things on track.

Jane sounds as if she is seeking a lot of validation from all of you. It would be good to become familiar with low self esteem, how it affects people and what you can do/say when she gets so down on herself.

My girlfriend once stressed to me that open communication and sharing was paramount in her marriage. It is a very high need/requirement; at least it was for her.

I hope this will be of some help to you. Good luck, and updates when you can please. :)

[WaeV]

Blossom
Yes, needing to be in a relationship before her energies can be spent elsewhere sounds exactly like her. It ought to be a learning experience for the both of us.

Zsych
I am quite certain that Dave has no feelings for Jane even accounting for Matt's influence. Unfortunately for her acknowledging the criticism means not having a relationship, which seems to be a need for her. Knowing where the criticism is coming from, perhaps I can try to gently teach her once she's secure in a relationship.

Wot
Focusing on the woes was one of the complaints of Matt and Dave. Ill see if I can't focus her on the more positive things.
What track should things be kept on to avoid becoming an emotional dumping ground?



Today in school she was very withdrawn; sitting in the corner with her headphones on and drawing to herself. Also, Matt blew up at Charlie over IM - apparently Jane has continued to lean on Matt for emotional support ever since she moved here, and Matt's sick of it. He believes that we "disturbed the beehive" just as she was getting emotionally stable, and now he'll have to deal with more crap. Charlie is convinced that we did the right thing, however, and hopefully Jane won't need to dump on Matt if this works out.

I plan to invite some friends over this weekend (Matt and Dave will not be present). It should be Bert, Charlie, Serena (Charlie's gf), Mitch, Jane, and I. We'll probably do some poker as well as a campfire (hmm... need to get some mallows). I've been reading wikiHow for tips on making a friend into a girlfriend, and light touching seems to be one of the more effective ways to get her wondering. The focus of the event will be on having fun though. Once I get a sign that she understands my intentions I'll work on getting her alone.

[Skye]

Hi WaeV,

It's my guess that Jane is a true romantic, she believes there is one special person out there, she is desperately trying to find that person. She will jump to conclusions and therefore 'come on too strong'. She will pour her heart out to this person. Then she comes to the realization he's not the one (=> heartbreak). Tread carefully my friend, as when she falls, she will fall very hard.

I sense that you care very deeply about her. Just let that shine through. In words and actions. Communication is the key.

Hope the weekend went well.

S.

[Sinequanon]

Hi WaeV,

It's my guess that Jane is a true romantic, she believes there is one special person out there, she is desperately trying to find that person. She will jump to conclusions and therefore 'come on too strong'. She will pour her heart out to this person. Then she comes to the realization he's not the one (=> heartbreak). Tread carefully my friend, as when she falls, she will fall very hard.

I sense that you care very deeply about her. Just let that shine through. In words and actions. Communication is the key.

Hope the weekend went well.

S.
Seconded. This sounds very familiar. For better and worse.

[WaeV]

Yes, I understand the need to tread with caution. If things went wrong, not only would she be out of a relationship but 1/3 of her support base. (Of course I'd still try to be a good friend).

I was also thinking about why I like her and thought I'd share. Charlie and and I found something that describes us (and likely many INTJs) very well. The idea of a goal or challenge is extremely motivating, and can even described as sacred. In terms of meeting this 'sacred goal', our J tells us "This will be done" and our T says "This is how to do it. In terms of Jane, my goal has been to make her happy. When I realized that the "seed" for a relationship was there, that became a resource of sorts for accomplishing this goal. That may seem excessively robotic to non-INTJs, but that's the easiest way to explain it. The more I think about it, the more I like her, and the seed is watered and grows. Maybe I'm liking her more and more because it's perceived as a requirement for meeting my goal. Maybe that I like her is why to make her happy is my goal in the first place. Mind to heart.

[McD]

From my limited experience of INFJ's (My current S.O. is an INFJ), INFJ's are very prone to depression. The one's I know (especially my S.O.) often get into either a 1) woe is me I'm doomed fatalistic attitude or 2) the shut everyone out of their life and isolate. With respect to 2, it's not mere solitude in which they recharge (like all introverts need), it's worse than that.

[WaeV]

Well nothing that I had planned regarding Jane happened at the fire thing (which was good fun regardless). We were doing tarot readings though, and when it was just her, Bert, and I over by the fire (Bert's really into divination and such, she has her own deck as well) she got a reading with 5 major arcana our of... a nine card spread I think. She can't figure out what it means but recorded the layout, as that many major arcana are rare. I'm not much for faith and spirits, but I can't help but feel (and hope) that I affected the cards somehow...

Anyways, We were having a lengthy conversation via IM, near the beginning of which she decided to abandon Dave. Unfortunately, she decided that all of her problems are because she really loves Jake, from her old school. Bert and one of my other friends who doesn't know any of these people independently came to the same conclusion: that she's grasping for reasons why love fails for her. Jane says that she feels whole just thinking about reuniting with Jake, but I'm not so sure about this guy (and of course jealous. :p ). Jane's parents disapprove of Jake for starters. I know regrettably little about him. Bert, who knows more than I do, says that Jake basically makes her feel good by buying things for her which he can barely afford. Bert and my other friend agree that she's still floundering and that I should continue to try for her. I plan to get her for some one on one hangouts soon, though I'm lack for ideas of what to do. Maybe a hike or summat? It was suggested by my other friend that someone tip Jane off that I like her, to get her thinking. I could either be wise to the tip or just let it come as a surprise I guess. I told Bert, who said that it would take skill to pull off the tip without being awkward, and that he'd think on it.

[JohnDoe]

Blah blah blah

Ask her on a date. Use that word. It is not ethical to pine for someone while giving them advice on their love life.

Edit: bonus points if you can figure out how to make it clear to her that you have not been secretly pining for her for years.





JohnDoe added to this post, 68 minutes and 43 seconds later...

It was suggested by my other friend that someone tip Jane off that I like her, to get her thinking. I could either be wise to the tip or just let it come as a surprise I guess.

Or you could, you know, just flirt with her. :(

[WaeV]

Despite all that has happened, Jane and Matt are still arranged to go to Prom together. (It really just hasn't come up since they first decided.) Charlie was elaborating on how expensive it was going to be to pay for his and his gf, and Matt brought up that he also had to pay double - for Jane, though he didn't expect that they would do much together due to aforementioned events. A thought occurred to him and he looked at me. "Y'know, you could take her to Prom." :laugh:

I think from here I'll try for some one on one time, then ask her to Prom.

bonus points if you can figure out how to make it clear to her that you have not been secretly pining for her for years.

We've only really known each other for this year.

[JohnDoe]

We've only really known each other for this year.
I'm just saying the way its going to look....

[WaeV]

Wow, things went down! Matt just emailed Jane and told her that I would make a way better date to prom. Minutes later, she told me that she just got ditched, and I said I didn't have a date either. She asked if I had talked to the INFP girl about it, and I said that she was basically out of the picture. She asked if I had thought of asking anyone else, so I decided to ask her right then. She said "Of course ^_^" and loved the song.

Case closed.

[JohnDoe]

Wow, things went down! Matt just emailed Jane and told her that I would make a way better date to prom. Minutes later, she told me that she just got ditched, and I said I didn't have a date either. She asked if I had talked to the INFP girl about it, and I said that she was basically out of the picture. She asked if I had thought of asking anyone else, so I decided to ask her right then. She said "Of course ^_^" and loved the song.

Case closed.

Yay. We love happy endings!

[ranwayslo]

I am doing the happy dance on my chair! Outstanding!

[Skye]

Yay! NT + NF = aliens communicated.
You could be so very good for each other :-)

Have an awesome time at the prom.

[WaeV]

Well, I stopped posting here because I didn't need any advice and didn't see fit to turn the thread into a relationship blog, but things have changed.

Background info: Jane had a boyfriend from maybe eight months ago named "Jake." I don't know the conditions of their separation. Just before I asked Jane to prom, she started talking about maybe none of her relationship endeavors were working because she still had feelings for Jake. I asked to prom shortly after, and the problem seemed to go away. She never mentioned it again, anyways.

I went to the prom with Jane, and we had a great time. It was only afterwards that I realized that we had only been not kissing for about 45 minutes. I asked her to be my girlfriend and gave her my high school ring. She said "I was wondering when you were going to ask me ^_^." On the ride home, I didn't mean to be eavesdropping, but I saw a text saying "What the f***, I can't believe you're doing this to me." To which he reply started "Jake, ..." I didn't try to read what she wrote back, but I assumed it was something along the lines of telling him that she was in a relationship with me now.

For the next month everything went great. We once went a week without seeing each other due to a series of appointments, sickdays, etc. and didn't see each other again until our senior outing, where I tried to not go too overboard with the PDA. At our senior banquet a couple weeks later our Vice Principal asked us to tone it down when we weren't even kissing, we were just slow dancing. That shook my nerves a bit, I remember. I had found out a while ago that Jane smokes, but she's trying to quit and has maybe 3 cigarettes a week. What I minded most about her smoking wasn't the taste, but that she felt horrible for doing it and that she avoided kissing me for a while afterwards. I would rather have endured the taste. At the end of our first month together we graduated and went on our high school's safe grad trip. As I was to leave for my dad's in Maine the next day, it was our last night together for a long time, and that it had to be in public made it worse. Even though it was safe grad, apparently we were allowed to bring cigars and cigarettes. People were offering them around, and Jane had one right away. I felt torn between my desire to talk to my high school pals whom I would never see again and to be with Jane. I flitted between the two, but there were no good conversations with either. On the ride home I saw her texting Jake again. She finally got around to writing me a yearbook message, then she fell asleep on my leg while I was stroking her hair, and then I fell asleep on her. When we got back, she drove me home, and we had a weak goodbye kiss.

Then, 17 days of withdrawal. During this time, we scheduled a chance for me to fly down to her family's condo near cocoa beach, Florida. I stayed there for four nights, and had a fantastic time. It was just Jane and her mom and I (and the dog). We went down the boardwalk, swimming together in the ocean, to the zoo, etc. To be honest, I had the most fun watching movies after her mom went to bed... :p

On our last night we went walking the beach looking for turtles laying their eggs. Just when we thought it was hopeless, we saw the biggest loggerhead either of us had seen. It was amazing to watch her lay dozens of eggs in the hole she dug in the sand, but to be honest I was completely focused on Jane. Maybe it was her excitement, her joy, but she looked absolutely radiant, and she is beautiful to begin with. Her mom was already asleep when we got back. I told her about the difference between being in love (infatuation) and loving someone, and how since I had been waiting to say "I love you" I had instead been saying nothing at all, which troubled me. She said "I love you is just fine." She had wanted to sleep with me for a long time, and after spending a long time weighing my decision I finally agreed. Being a complete novice, the experience wasn't as physically gratifying as it could have been. The emotional intimacy, however, was amazing, and I finally told her that I loved her. I flew home the next morning.

Once I was home again, I was on my PC late at night and realized she was on IM. We talked and agreed that while we may only be in love at this point, it's okay to say "I love you" if you hope to eventually love the person. We signed off.

I knew that Jane had been having a cellphone battle with her parents when I was in Florida, and the next week none of my calls to her got through because she had deactivated her own phone. I wrote her a nice love letter and included a rose petal and a short poem.

Last weekend I had eight friends come up to Maine (Jane couldn't make it, which at the time I thought was probably a good thing, or I would have been focused on her and not my friends :p ) Last Monday, a week ago, everyone had just left and it hit me that I had graduated and would probably only see a few of them again (they weren't all my best friends). Feeling pretty bummed, I decided to do some reading. I opened my college freshman survival guide, and when I got to the section on relationships just about every other piece of advice said to not bring a high school relationship to college. I read on, and the book (composed completely of advice from college goers across the nation, not some random author) said that most high school relationships ended by Thanksgiving, known as the "Turkey Drop". This scared me, because I realized that it was nearly inevitable that Jane and I would have to break up. I cried, and had to fight back tears when my dad had me stack wood. Later that day I called Jane at her house, but she wasn't home. When she called back there was about 20 seconds of awkward silence before she asked "How long do you see us going together?" I explained what I had read in my advice book as she listened. She then proceded to tell me that she thought I could do so much better than her in college. She also said that it was clear that I gave her my whole heart and she tried her best to reciprocate, but she kept having nagging thoughts about Jake. She said I had been so amazing to her that I deserved someone better than herself, who could offer her whole heart. And then I lost phone service >_<. I called back immediately - she had though I hung up. We were both incredibly broken up, and we talked for a good hour or so afterwards. Actually, it was mostly Jane talking, and I regretted that I couldn't think of anything to say to comfort her. She expected me to be mad with her, though I told her I wasn't. And I'm not. And then the heartbreak set in. I couldn't sleep that night. At one in the morning, before I had to get up for work at five, I went downstairs for a glass of red wine. I watched a candle and listened to the album Jane had given me.

Tuesday night, I arranged everything at my Maine household that held meaning regarding Jane, summoned up as much emotion as I could for her and the objects, sketched the arrangement, wrote myself a note, and consigned to erase my love for her. I felt as though I was violating something sacred by doing so.

Everything about having a relationship had been different than I expected, and no words I've read have properly conveyed what it felt like. But the following excerpt from Phillip Pullman's The Amber Spyglass is a surprisingly good description.

And Pantalaimon didn't ask why, because he knew; and he didn't ask whether Lyra loved Roger more than him, because he knew the true answer to that, too. And he knew that if he spoke, she wouldn't be able to resist; so the daemon held himself quiet so as not to distress the human who was abandoning him, and now they were both pretending that it wouldn't hurt, it wouldn't be long before they were together again, it was all for the best. But Will knew that the little girl was tearing her heart out of her breast.
Then she stepped down into the boat. She was so light that it barely rocked at all. She sat beside Will, and her eyes never left Pantalaimon, who stood trembling at the shore end of the jetty; but as the boatman let go of the iron ring and swung his oars out to pull the boat away, the little dog daemon trotted helplessly out to the very end, his claws clicking softly on the soft planks, and stood watching, just watching, as the boat drew away and the jetty faded and vanished in the mist.
Then Lyra gave a cry so passionate that even in that muffled, mist-hung world it raised an echo, but of course it wasn't an echo, it was the other part of her crying in turn from the land of the living as Lyra moved away into the land of the dead.
"My heart, Will..." she groaned, and clung to him, her wet face contorted with pain.
And thus the prophecy that the Master of Jordan College had made to the Librarian, that Lyra would make a great betrayal and it would hurt her terribly, was fulfilled.
But Will, too, found an agony building inside him, and through the pain he saw that the two Gallivespians, clinging together just as he and Lyra were doing, were moved by the same anguish.
Part of it was physical. It felt as if an iron hand had gripped his heart and was pulling it out between his ribs, so that he pressed his hands to the place and vainly tried to hold it in. It was far deeper and far worse than the pain of losing his fingers. But it was mental, too: something secret and private was being dragged into the open, where it had no wish to be, and Will was nearly overcome by a mixture of pain and shame and fear and self-reproach, because he himself had caused it.
And it was worse than that. It was as if he'd said, "No, don't kill me, I'm frightened; kill my mother instead; she doesn't matter, I don't love her," and as if she'd heard him say it, and pretended she hadn't so as to spare his feelings, and offered herself in his place anyway because of her love for him. He felt as bad as that. There was nothing worse to feel.

Work really sucks for getting over this sort of thing. I work at a golf course, so I have about eight hours of mowing and other such menial tasks that use zero brainpower and allow my mind to wander. Isn't it a feat in itself to find four or five hours of things to think about besides Jane? But those three or four remaining hours are what cause my problems. A few days after we broke up, I suddenly smiled. I could think of what Jane had done and be happy for it. The world looked as if it had color again. The next day was grey and dreary and I sunk below again, but the day after I resurfaced. I continue to think about her, however. What bugs me now is that I checked Jane's facebook page and two days after we had broken up and she was again in a relationship with Jake.

Before we were a couple, the majority of our discussions were about our relationship issues, but now that seems to be an extremely awkward topic. We have a few strands of commonality that seem safe, but... :undecided: I don't want to lose her.



So that's my situation. Any thoughts or words of advice? The me I was three weeks ago never wanted to let Jane go. My caring for her caused me to carry out her wish that I would find a better girl, and to do so I needed to dissipate my (romantic) caring for her. I fear that I can't return to being friends, that our relationship consumed our friendship. In any case, I have about three weeks worth of time left in Maine, which amounts to about 100 hours of deep thinking and introspection. Please help me from going crazy :undecided:

[wotsamattaU]

WaeV, so sorry to hear you are going through this.

It is a bit uncanny both of you were coming to the same conclusion almost simultaneously. For what it's worth, I think it was the correct decision to make.

It sounds as if she does care for you a great deal, I don't doubt that.

Her need to see this thing with Jake through to it's natural conclusion does make sense. If she didn't, it would always be out there drawing her emotionally away from you. She needs to find out once and for all.

You don't want to lose her, but you are going to need to turn those thoughts around. This is the sort of thing time heals. With a little distance (time-wise) between you, it will get easier - much, much easier.

Eventually you will need to redirect your thoughts from obsessing about Jane. I know of one sure fire way to do this, but it is harsh. Each time you think of the two of you together, 'correct' it by removing yourself from the image and replacing it with Jake. You will want to immediately drop that line of thought of the two of them romantically together.

Soon you will no longer be lingering over these thought paths. This does work. It takes about a week - week & a half to stop thinking of the two of you in that way. Believe it or not, your healing has already begun.

[ranwayslo]

Waev you know I think highly of you so I'll keep the advice to just this. It might not be a bad idea to stay away from facebook for a while. I understand the what and the why of wanting to check and see what she is up to, but really it is not going to do you any good at this point.

Manual labor can be extremely cathartic. Instead of thinking or as you are thinking use the labor as a conduit for what you feel. I have a lot of trouble expressing negative emotions in a situation like this. To clarify: I am talking about the petty lashing out that you want to do at: yourself, her, the situation. Denying that those things exist is not cool. They are there at the end of any relationship in one degree or another. Channel them into your work and allow the abstraction of focus to work through what you are feeling rather than allowing yourself to further dwell on it by analysis.

Forgive me for the last sentence. I am very ill and it seems to make sense but I am not sure.

[WaeV]

Wot
Yes, I think it was a good decision as well, but it's still hard. I definitely understand what you mean about a lack of closure causing an emotional drawing - that happened to my mom a few years ago.

That is a really good way to redirect my thoughts, thanks. I actually found another good way to keep my mind off things as I work - listening to audiobooks. That doesn't really solve the problem as well as your solution, as audiobooks simply keeps me from having time to think about her instead of dissolving the thought patterns that bring her up.

It's almost been a week and a half and I feel alot better. I had called her back a day or two after we broke up, but it really didn't serve to accomplish anything. In retrospect, I should have continued to wait. I realize that there's no set formula, but how long should it take for us to be able to be comfortable around each other as friends again?

Raywanslo
Thanks for the compliment and the advice. :)

I think I understand the last sentence; I didn't even notice it was structured oddly until you pointed it out. The trouble with my work is that mowing, unlike shoveling or other such manual jobs, doesn't really give you a chance to let out steam, if thyat's what your post was suggesting. I don't know if I have any steam to let out. I'm not angry at Jane, Jake, or myself. I'm not a jealous person. I suppose I could be a little envious of Jake, but I understand the reasons behind Jane's decision and know that this is probably for the best. Yesterday my strongest feeling was curiosity at what was between Jane and Jake, when it had started, why they were back together so quickly, etc. It doesn't bug me today though, and I only yesterday night realized that the texts Jane was sending Jake could very easily have been friendly communication, something Jane and I may have eight months down the road.

I suppose my biggest concerns at the moment are that I would like to be on friendly terms with Jane again (which will just take time I suppose), and, having seen how wonderful a relationship is, to start working on another. As for the second point, college starts in a month and I understand the advice that freshman should really focus on classes and meeting people rather than a relationship, at least until late spring. But I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Thanks again, guys. I rank your advice among that of my three best friends, and even if I would have handled the situation well enough on my own, words of encouragement ae what have gotten me though this week.

[wotsamattaU]

I realize that there's no set formula, but how long should it take for us to be able to be comfortable around each other as friends again?


You are going to be so busy and preoccupied once you begin college, I would think by then it should be much easier for the two of you to communicate. You won't be so focused on what passed before. So I'd say in a month's time you'll be much more at ease conversing as friends once again.

I was impressed with how you handled everything. Glad to hear you're already feeling better. (you are already past the worst of it then)

Most of all, that it hasn't soured you on relationships, but rather encouraged you to seek a new one when the timing is right.

[Thracius]

jesus what a mess, better find someone more fun and less awkward

[alphawolf]

An INFJ "just knows" what you need emotionally, and can sincerely and deeply touch you in ways that no other type can - all without even realizing that she is doing it. She is, in a way, the perfect lover, and can make nearly anyone fall in love with her. She can also turn anyone into a needy, obsessed fool, though it's highly unlikely that she'd ever do it on purpose unless she was suffering severely herself from a past betrayal.

It is unbelievably heartbreaking to learn that the INFJ who has touched you in these ways has her own emotional problems (who doesn't?) and she withdraws from you when she starts to feel herself being touched back. When the term "bleeding heart" was coined, it was very likely by a person who had been deeply touched by an INFJ's love and then all of the sudden left out in the cold.

This is the sort of thing that can make you emotionally stronger if you let the suffering play itself out and you don't try to patch it up, ignore it, and bury it.

Just realize that some romances are not meant to be, despite how good it feels (even to both of you).

[WaeV]

I hate to resurrect this topic again, but I have concerns more on par with the original purpose of this thread. Jane is back with Jake, and yet she seems miserable again. Our group of friends got together for a fire and a game of poker, and if she wasn't prompted to join the conversation for more than a minute or two her head would droop and she would stare off into space. At one point she went off to take a phone call. When she returned she looked despondent, and snapped at Waldo, who simply remarked "Whoa, you just snuck right out of the dark there!" Days later, four of us went to see our friend perform in a summer theater play. On the way home she got four phone calls. A couple of these were from her parents, but at least one sounded as though it was from Jake. I only heard her side of the conversation, but... "No, we're all here as FRIENDS... No, we're on the HIGHWAY... We're not doing anything..."

At camp I talked to some people from my school who I'm friendly with but don't normally talk to as they aren't in my grade. They said Jake was "a funny guy but wouldn't make a good boyfriend," that he was homeschooled, then attended our high school for a while before dropping out, that he smokes, "is probably why Jane started smoking," and calls Jane "a psychotic bitch."

Looking back through our chats, I realized that she was saying the exact same things about having feelings for Jake when she broke up with me as just before we started dating. That was when she was still getting over Dave, and I just don't get it. I keep wondering what it is that she goes back for, what I could have provided to her to keep her from seeking... penance? She feels as though she deserves shit. "Maybe I should stick to the abusive guys. At least they make me feel pretty."

While I still feel sad over the end of our relationship, I'm certainly not seeking to resume it. While I don't believe that Jane and Jake should be together, I no longer wish to take his place. I realize that it was practically inevitable that we would break up eventually. What gets me is the injustice of her situation. What has happened to her is just so... wrong. She deserves to be happy, and yet Charlie, Bert, and I are powerless to give it to her. I just so want her to be happy.

Oh, and another thing. Why is it that she send me an email saying the following: "Hi :undecided: , life just feels empty without talking to you, so I figured I'd send you an email. I'm not going to lie, your facebook status made me cry a little. I'm not sure what else to say without looking like a basket case or whatever I always seem to end up playing the role of. Or is it too late for that? :undecided:" and then from that point on never return any emails, IMs, or facebook messages? She promised she would call when she received that letter that was in transit, but she hasn't called me since we broke up. (Except for two mysterious missed calls that seem to have come from her house, but I can't be sure.) I've since stopped trying to communicate with her, but it seems like mixed messages. I tried to make her happy and all I did was lose her a shoulder to cry on.

[wotsamattaU]

It's possible Jake has jealousy issues regarding her maintaining contact with you, based off what you overheard. If that is the case, it would explain her non responses (which otherwise would have been out of character for her).

I know at the beginning of this thread you mentioned she was receiving professional help weekly. She seems to be right back to repeating her old patterns. Until she is able to build and maintain a sense of self worth this will continue to be the case. Hopefully she is still seeing her Dr. He/she is the one most suited for directing Jane to the life changes necessary for developing a sense of self esteem.

You have offered her your friendship, and for now she may feel unable to return it as she would like to. There really is nothing else you can do. Should she reach out to you again, just letting her know you are still a friend would likely mean a great deal to her.

[Cash]

I agree with wotsamattaU that the lack of communication could be because of issues with Jake. I had a friend who stopped talking to me for over a year because her boyfriend's jealousy. We hadn't even dated, but there had been alot of romantic/sexual tension between us.