Dumb patriots

[You]

I don't understand the need to feel proud or ashamed of the achievements of a person or think of them as having higher worth just because they were born within the same human defined borders as you.

[Prunesquallor]

It can be fun; it's not necessarily a need. And one needn't believe in it, exactly. It's just a form of a group identity that can make interacting with other people easier. It's the people that take it too seriously that bother me.

Take, say, sports teams: one thing I like about being a mad keen hockey fan is that when you're, say, watching a game, you're happy at the same time and for the same reasons as a whole lot of other people. It's almost like having friends, without all the bother. ;) But, seriously, I get totally involved in how my team is awesome, let's trash the Leafs and it's just fun...it's an excuse to scream at the television, which relieves a lot of stress, it makes smalltalk a little easier with strangers who like hockey. Do I genuinely think every player on my team is automatically awesome, and anyone who plays/cheers for Toronto is evil/moronic? No, but it's still fun to get involved in that fiction. And it makes for great in-jokes.

As for my country - yeah I like it, I find references to it in the media/movies/etc. sometimes funny, I like some of the stereotypical jokes, I like trashing the States...it's a game, though. I could argue based on quality of life, rational statistics, etc. that it's an awesome place to live, but that's a lot of work for little purpose. I just like to play with the identity, joke around, and although I do genuinely like it, a lot of what I say is more about the in-jokes than being serious.

[Night Runner]

I think Kurt Vonnegut said it best:

"You hate America, don't you?" she said.
"That would be as silly as loving it," I said. "It's impossible for me to get emotional about it, because real estate doesn't interest me. It's no doubt a great flaw in my personality, but I can't think in terms of boundaries. Those imaginary lines are as unreal to me as elves and pixies. I can't believe that they mark the end or the beginning of anything of real concern to the human soul. Virtues and vices, pleasures and pains cross boundaries at will."

[You]

I think sport is a different matter. It seems patriotism encourages war, hatred, lack of tolerance, selfish mentality, ego worship etc etc.

"I think Kurt Vonnegut said it best:"

Yeah, well said.

I think this guy said it well too:

"...But that poor beggar who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own.”

-Arthur Schopenhauer

[Ted]

patriotism encourages war; sports encourage riots

They're essentially the same thing but in different scales.

[You]

patriotism encourages war; sports encourage riots

They're essentially the same thing but in different scales.

At least football riots can be entertaining...

I know what you're saying though but is it relevant? Being on such a small scale I think it may be irrelevant in comparison to the problems caused by patriotism.

[Ted]

I think sport is a different matter. It seems patriotism encourages war, hatred, lack of tolerance, selfish mentality, ego worship etc etc.


I was just pointing out that they're similar.

[You]

Fair point. I can see some logical reasoning behind supporting a football team though (entertainment/conversation), I don't think the same can be said of patriotism.

[Ted]

Fair point. I can see some logical reasoning behind supporting a football team though (entertainment/conversation), I don't think the same can be said of patriotism.

If a country discovered platinum mines within its borders and boosted its economy by 400%. I think one would/should free proud (and comfortable) for living in such a country.

If the taxes from a country went to save starving people in third world countries, I think one should feel proud for living in such a country.

[You]

If a country discovered platinum mines within its borders and boosted its economy by 400%. I think one would/should free proud (and comfortable) for living in such a country.

If the taxes from a country went to save starving people in third world countries, I think one should feel proud for living in such a country.

Why? What would they have done to be proud of? What did they do to help the situation? Nothing?

[Indy]

At least football riots can be entertaining...


Who says war can't be entertaining?

Insert George Carlin jokes...

But seriously, Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson would be a good place to start.

[Prunesquallor]

Fair point. I can see some logical reasoning behind supporting a football team though (entertainment/conversation), I don't think the same can be said of patriotism.

Maybe your country's just boring....

No, but seriously, it probably makes a different how much you travel and how big your country is. It's easy to identify with something smaller, or something that's different in a way you notice. I know I felt more "patriotic" after leaving the country for a while, and somehow if you meet someone from the same home country when you're both away, it's like a reason to talk to them, you tend to feel friendlier. It's totally illogical and one needn't act on it, of course. A large place it might be more amusing to identify with one's state/city, and laugh at those associated stereotypes and things. Like all of the 'you know you're from [CITY] when...' Facebook groups.

[Ted]

Why? What would they have done to be proud of? What did they do to help the situation? Nothing?

You do know that taxes come from the citizens (you) right?

[Tyrant Soup]

Blind patriotism is stupid, but the concept of identifying with the group that theoretically shares looks after your interests is sound. There are tangible benefits in supporting your own group.

On the other hand, cheering for a sports team is like eating junk food. There's absolutely no personal benefit to it. You're actually taking pleasure in another alpha male's ability to assert their dominance over you. Can't get more submissive than that! :)

[Bobert]

That Vonnegut guy was a dumbass. Everyone knows elves and pixies exist.

[void]

The downsides of unquestioning patriotism are well known. However, it is necessary for a certain minimum percentage of a country's population to engage in this false pride for the country to survive. If every citizen were to realize that being proud of being born within a certain geopolitical division is silly, then very few people would be willing to enlist in the military. I certainly am not "proud" of my country (Canada), but I do think its societal structure and rules of governance are worth defending. It is for this reason that I am willing to enlist, should the need arise. Nonetheless, if it were to succumb to an oppressive regime, I'd happily move to someplace similar (like Sweden) without disappointment.

I wholeheartedly agree with Carlin and Vonnegut.

[Ted]

The OP should clarify whether he means that all patriots are stupid, or that there are stupidity within the acts of patriots.

[Tough Love]

Blind patriotism is stupid.


Definately! Its misguided is what it is.

I only formed a place in my heart for Australia (my home country) after i moved to shitty London. Sorry to any patriotic Londoners, your not patriotic til you have been to Australia and STILL choose London over Australia. Yes i know that doesnt make ''real'' sense.

I would go so far to say there is no patriotism to a place if you dont have the alternate choice to be patriotic to another ''equal'' place. What do you think?

[jesse]

I don't understand the need to feel proud or ashamed of the achievements of a person or think of them as having higher worth just because they were born within the same human defined borders as you.

One of these things I do not comprehend either. You're born, big deal, and then you're somehow expected to have pride on the location? It does not add up in my books. Besides, you cannot pick where you are born or who your biological parents are.

The OP should clarify whether he means that all patriots are stupid, or that there are stupidity within the acts of patriots.

Blind and forced patriotism is what is stupid and those who let their judgement be clouded in the name of patriotism really are hopeless. I would say my indivualist outlook also dictates that fighting for a nation is undesirable. There is nothing wrong with making your surroundings a better place though, but I will never call this patriotism.

Perhaps patriotism is one of these things which exist because certain types of people _must_ have a belief in something bigger than themselves. It is also used to manipulate and abuse people.

Definately! Its misguided is what it is.

I only formed a place in my heart for Australia (my home country) after i moved to shitty London. Sorry to any patriotic Londoners, your not patriotic til you have been to Australia and STILL choose London over Australia. Yes i know that doesnt make ''real'' sense.

There are several places that have the feeling of being home, most of them have zero relevance as having a bond usually by being a citizen of a certain country. I love locations, I don't love the states which hold jurisdiction over them.

I would go so far to say there is no patriotism to a place if you dont have the alternate choice to be patriotic to another ''equal'' place. What do you think?

This would apply better if I prescribed to patriotism.
The saying here is that one compares their own surroundings to a place which they perceive to be in a worse state. "We must be better and worthier because my surroundings sure as hell beats those barbarians prancing around naked in Africa and their endless cycle of starvation and poverty". Another one seen sometimes is "my country is obviously better than yours because we do not go to war thus I love believe in my country."

[eternaltriangle]

I don't understand the need to feel proud or ashamed of the achievements of a person or think of them as having higher worth just because they were born within the same human defined borders as you.

I would draw a distinction between ethnic nationalism and patriotism (civic nationalism). Nationalists make claims of pride in their ethnic group and its accomplishments. It is rooted in an inaccurate 19th century understanding of genetics, whereby the undeserving claim credit for the deserving. Ayn Rand rightly dismisses this as barnyard collectivism.

Civic nationalism, or patriotism, is a different kettle of fish however. It involves pride in "my country". I would argue that most American flag-wavers are patriots, not nationalists (there is no such thing as an American race anyhow). This is much more justifiable - and it is not irrational for patriots to take some credit for national accomplishments. American patriotism, for instance, is rooted in the idea that America's institutions are unique, in that they preserve a high level of freedom and opportunity for all. [some] Individual Americans do contribute to the preservation of those institutions, and thus, pride in country is not entirely irrational (although few people independently contribute to the ultimate outcome in a significant way).

Collectively, patriotism makes sense too. Humans do not exist as independent actors alone - we also live in numerous collectivities - we are members of families, countries, states/provinces, cities, and bowling leagues. The survival of each of those organizations is aided to some degree by having some people who identify primarily with the organization. Otherwise, those organizations will face collective action problems in the provision of public goods.

Take a bowling league. Bowling leagues require that members uphold the rules of the league (memories of the Big Lebowski "OVER THE LINE!") and pay dues - dues which nobody in any bowling league has much power to collect. If everybody in the league cared solely for themselves cheating would run rampant and paying for lanes would be difficult.

I think a mistake liberals (more in the libertarian/international/classical liberal sense, though American liberals are often guilty of this) often make is in assuming that we can understand the whole sum of societies solely by looking at individuals. The whole is often more or less than the sum of its parts in reality. People that have collective identities may appear irrational, but ultimately keep the wheels moving.





eternaltriangle added to this post, 11 minutes and 37 seconds later...


Do I genuinely think every player on my team is automatically awesome, and anyone who plays/cheers for Toronto is evil/moronic?

The Toronto Maple Leafs are a case of the negative side of patriotism. Patriotism skews necessary criticism and evaluation of the failure of institutions and practices of an organization. To those unfamiliar with the Leafs, they are the most profitable team in the NHL. Though they are like the Yankees in terms of making money, they are more like a Jamaican bobsled team when it comes to winning. They have not won the Stanley cup since 1967, and often struggle (and fail) to make the playoffs (in Hockey most teams make the playoffs).

Toronto will always have fans - they are the home team to Canada's largest city, and part of an initiation ritual for many immigrants (Italians LOVE hockey). Moreover, back when there were only six teams, many people that did not or do not have a home-team in Canada developed loyalties to either the Canadiens or Leafs (my father is from Montreal, but my Newfie mom's family featured divided loyalties). Because fans will fill the stadium regardless of team performance, general managers have little incentive to hire the best and the brightest players (at the same time, the Leafs usually do just well enough that they miss out on the best draft picks). Now with salary caps, the Leafs couldn't even buy the Stanley cup if they wanted to.

So too much patriotism CAN be a bad thing (my Leaf fan analogy probably applies to Bush's approval ratings post-9/11 - when people rally around the flag they may ask too few questions).

[Tough Love]

This would apply better if I prescribed to patriotism.


I suppose its kind of the same as the religion argument... If patriotism isnt blind faith, it must be based on logic. Therefore you can only be a patriot if you have internalised the meaning and affects of it. Unless you prescribe to religion in which case anything is possible!

[jesse]

I suppose its kind of the same as the religion argument... If patriotism isnt blind faith, it must be based on logic. Therefore you can only be a patriot if you have internalised the meaning and affects of it. Unless you prescribe to religion in which case anything is possible!

You might have a point about this. From what I have observed in many parts of the world in terms of patriotism, it's mostly because "everyone else is doing it". Society and its subdivisions put on pressure toward relative conformity in belief, appearance and conduct. If an individual does not fit within the parameters however arbitrary they may be, they can quickly become outcasts even if they nominally would belong to their surroundings.

For the record, I am not religious because in the overwhelming majority of cases their irrationality and requirement of placing absolute faith to dogma does not pass the muster of logic nor rationality.

I would draw a distinction between ethnic nationalism and patriotism (civic nationalism). Nationalists make claims of pride in their ethnic group and its accomplishments. It is rooted in an inaccurate 19th century understanding of genetics, whereby the undeserving claim credit for the deserving. Ayn Rand rightly dismisses this as barnyard collectivism.

Civic nationalism, or patriotism, is a different kettle of fish however. It involves pride in "my country". I would argue that most American flag-wavers are patriots, not nationalists (there is no such thing as an American race anyhow). This is much more justifiable - and it is not irrational for patriots to take some credit for national accomplishments. American patriotism, for instance, is rooted in the idea that America's institutions are unique, in that they preserve a high level of freedom and opportunity for all. [some] Individual Americans do contribute to the preservation of those institutions, and thus, pride in country is not entirely irrational (although few people independently contribute to the ultimate outcome in a significant way).

Collectively, patriotism makes sense too. Humans do not exist as independent actors alone - we also live in numerous collectivities - we are members of families, countries, states/provinces, cities, and bowling leagues. The survival of each of those organizations is aided to some degree by having some people who identify primarily with the organization. Otherwise, those organizations will face collective action problems in the provision of public goods.

Take a bowling league. Bowling leagues require that members uphold the rules of the league (memories of the Big Lebowski "OVER THE LINE!") and pay dues - dues which nobody in any bowling league has much power to collect. If everybody in the league cared solely for themselves cheating would run rampant and paying for lanes would be difficult.

I think a mistake liberals (more in the libertarian/international/classical liberal sense, though American liberals are often guilty of this) often make is in assuming that we can understand the whole sum of societies solely by looking at individuals. The whole is often more or less than the sum of its parts in reality. People that have collective identities may appear irrational, but ultimately keep the wheels moving.

True, in the US context it is a bad fit to talk about nationalism because the majority of the populace is not native to the continent. Despite this fact, it does not stop each community from having their loud mouthed fuck-the-rest-of-those-who-are-not-like-us to make themselves heard. Oddly enough this tends to imply empowerment for minorities while for whites this means the very definition of racism and racial supremacy. A hideous double standard.

There is also a grain of truth regarding collective entities and association to such from the individual level and point of view. We certainly would not be getting very far and our conditions would be very shaky if there was nothing to arbitrate one group versus another.

eternaltriangle added to this post, 11 minutes and 37 seconds later...
The Toronto Maple Leafs are a case of the negative side of patriotism. Patriotism skews necessary criticism and evaluation of the failure of institutions and practices of an organization. To those unfamiliar with the Leafs, they are the most profitable team in the NHL. Though they are like the Yankees in terms of making money, they are more like a Jamaican bobsled team when it comes to winning. They have not won the Stanley cup since 1967, and often struggle (and fail) to make the playoffs (in Hockey most teams make the playoffs).

Toronto will always have fans - they are the home team to Canada's largest city, and part of an initiation ritual for many immigrants (Italians LOVE hockey). Moreover, back when there were only six teams, many people that did not or do not have a home-team in Canada developed loyalties to either the Canadiens or Leafs (my father is from Montreal, but my Newfie mom's family featured divided loyalties). Because fans will fill the stadium regardless of team performance, general managers have little incentive to hire the best and the brightest players (at the same time, the Leafs usually do just well enough that they miss out on the best draft picks). Now with salary caps, the Leafs couldn't even buy the Stanley cup if they wanted to.

So too much patriotism CAN be a bad thing (my Leaf fan analogy probably applies to Bush's approval ratings post-9/11 - when people rally around the flag they may ask too few questions).

I like this allusion you've used with keeping unflinching faith toward something even if it is in a state of disarray and failure by some standards. In a way I can take my hat off if I wore one for perseverance of such people. Nevertheless this scenario tells me there is hardly any criticism nor thinking going on even if the US government under two Bush administrations invaded two countries on trumped allegations and evidence. All they had to do was stand behind the flag, infer patriotism and scare the bejebus out of the population and in turn they receive a magnificent blank check to do as they damn well pleased in the end.

Being unable, unwilling and probably highly pressured to ignore any signs of weakness or dare to question reality as is happening with the Maple Leafs is astounding. This does set up a dangerous environment where going against the line drawn by the mainstream as it enables others to shut you out, ostracize you and turn you into something a kin to an enemy. Wouldn't a healthy admiration of a country or even a sports club allow criticism and suggestions of how to improve things instead of shutting them out because it is not polite or made undesirable to speak out, especially if your opinion differs significantly?

[Tough Love]

I don't understand the need to feel proud or ashamed of the achievements of a person or think of them as having higher worth just because they were born within the same human defined borders as you.

Where do you stand when it comes to family? familiotism :idea:

[darynthe]

Ok, here is my perspective on it. Very personal.

I think real patriotism is not bigoted pride on the country but love for it. Nationalism is the first. Patriotism is the second.

We know the horrible sequels of nationalism, to believe that a race of a country is superior to others and others should either submit or be assimilated, it is per se a debasement of the soul of the individuals and something extremely ugly in the story of a nation.

However, patriotism elevates the soul. It means you know and accept and make yours the roots of your forefathers, you accept who you are and would give your life for the "people" of your country, because you understand them, you love them, you want them to be in peace and not be submitted to unjust oppression or violence.

This is how I feel about my Ecuador. I love every corner of that tiny country, I appreaciate every small piece of biodiversity, culture, religion, music, spirit and especially the innocent naivete that is a hallmark of ecuadorians. I have a big pride that is born of that love, not malicious, and not directed *against* other countries. It is the kind of feeling that doesn't care about others and doesn't rejoice into seeing others being anything less or envy them if they were more.

If I dispised my country then I find I wouldn't be a worthy human being. I am not sayinig I would feel the same if I was born in other countries. Maybe I would hate them. It would depend on the country.

[INTJoe]

I don't understand the need to feel proud or ashamed of the achievements of a person or think of them as having higher worth just because they were born within the same human defined borders as you.

I think people are patriotic/supportive because they feel their ancestors may have helped shape the Country in which they live, so they feel invested through lineage. They also realize many of their ancestors risked death to get to where they currently are, so they try to appreciate (promote) the good things of said Country. Of course this is hardly done fairly or non-biased. I'm just trying to explain the human nature of pride of Country.

[Orion79]

I never understood why people feel pride for something that in reality is just an accident of birth.
To me pride should be reserved for an accomplishment you've earned or an achievement that you've worked for.
Being born into a certain country/nationality/race/ethnicity/religion is not a skill.
Of course if you're happy with where you're from and who you are that's fine. It certainly doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else in this world.

[INTJoe]

I never understood why people feel pride for something that in reality is just an accident of birth.
To me pride should be reserved for an accomplishment you've earned or an achievement that you've worked for.
Being born into a certain country/nationality/race/ethnicity/religion is not a skill.
Of course if you're happy with where you're from and who you are that's fine. It certainly doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else in this world.

One could make the argument that being able to accomplish such goals is a result of an accident of birth.

Why should someone be proud they cure cancer if they were lucky to be born with the skillset to cure cancer? Are they better or worse than someone else in the world, who was not born with the skillset?

I don't know if humans can ever "overachieve", of their own volition, therefore I'm not sure it is ever righteous to feel pride for any accomplishment one makes of their own volition.

[darynthe]

I never understood why people feel pride for something that in reality is just an accident of birth.
To me pride should be reserved for an accomplishment you've earned or an achievement that you've worked for.
Being born into a certain country/nationality/race/ethnicity/religion is not a skill.
Of course if you're happy with where you're from and who you are that's fine. It certainly doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else in this world.

Mmm, it may be an accident but it doesn't make it any less yours or any less worthy, I suppose. Again, patriotism is in essence about love for your country, not about pride.

I think patriotism is to a nation, what self-esteem is to an individual.

And I think Christianism, in a way, is a generalization of patriotism towards the rest of humankind.

[Tyrant Soup]

If I dispised my country then I find I wouldn't be a worthy human being.

Country is an abstract concept. It encompasses different things to different people. The concept of "loving one's country" is so vague that it can mean almost anything. A traitor could claim to love his country.

[Ersatz]

That Vonnegut guy was a dumbass. Everyone knows elves and pixies exist.

At least in Iceland they do...

[Zombicide]

Patriots are in general exceptionally stupid animals useful for filling a nations armed forces or whatever they're needed to be harnessed for by a nation (not to say that actual people don't do these things, just a matter of demographics / inclination). They're highly expendable. There is yet to be a nation worth having a true loyalty to, if there were, I would be a patriot of that nation and my patriotism would be warranted but there is no such nation. Some nations really are for a time simply better than others or are justified in an international incident etcetera, if one's support of a nation or. . .patriotism (if one wants to call it that) is based on this and they don't have an obsession / nationalism or whatever, that's fine, actually either way can be fine, patriots are. . .useful, for a nation i.e.. Then again this form or patriotism I just mentioned (mere support of the right side for the right reasons) isn't literally patriotism. The feeling of pride true patriots get from being born on their side of our imaginary borders is astonishing, I wonder what it feels like to be that dumb, it seems it must be quite euphoric at times. Patriotism correlates with other retard mentalities. I wish I were a patriot, I would be so content.

[darynthe]

Country is an abstract concept. It encompasses different things to different people. The concept of "loving one's country" is so vague that it can mean almost anything. A traitor could claim to love his country.

Well, anyone can say anything. I am talking about a personal feeling and value. You may be right about the concept of country.

Personally, in my ideal world there would be no boundaries and everybody may live wherever they well please and wherever their heart takes them. I think that unification is the future of this planet, not entrenching yourselves into smaller and smaller close-minded clusters.

This is exactly why I don't like Quebec. If I had been born here I wouldn't have felt any love for it either.

So indeed, my patriotism is probably an accident of birth. But I know for sure that if I was born in Poland I would feel the same way. That is one people I have a great affinity with.





darynthe added to this post, 6 minutes and 48 seconds later...

The feeling of pride true patriots get from being born on their side of our imaginary borders is astonishing, I wonder what it feels like to be that dumb, it seems it must be quite euphoric at times. Patriotism correlates with other retard mentalities. I wish I were a patriot, I would be so content.

LOL If you don't love your country it doesn't mean that other countries are not worth loving.
In this regard love can simply be born as a form of retribution to the place that fed you and protected you, your family, your property, gave you an education thorugh a free school, let you enjoy sunshine all through the year, allowed you roam freely, to bathe in a beach, to go over a mountain top of eternal glaciers, to see a deer in freedom, to get into a jungle....

I am not so full of myself that I don't feel love and gratitute for my country. All this she did for me. All this and more.

I find it hilarious to see the mentality of first world people who had never had a worry in their whole lifes and have a postmodern soul, tired of everything, skeptic of everything, who looked down on love because it has he potential of being manipulated for those without morality or because it can useful for some purpose besides love itself.

I enjoy a lot being dumb.