What is Marriage Life Like? Good or Bad?

[Jinxu]

I know that marriage is a broad subject with a lot of topics that can be discussed. But I keep hearing more and more from older men that marriage life is not all that great. "It's sucks" and "Don't ever do it" are some of the comments.

I want to ask the older members here two (or four) basic questions:

What is marriage life like? Is it good or bad?

Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?

[Valielen]

I am quite interested in reading this... I still have a few months before I join the club of married people. Plenty of time to run away still!

On a more serious note, I am not pro-marriage. I spent years telling my other half this. Yet he still proposed to me. It was such an ingenious proposal that after around 5 minutes of careful pondering quietly while he was still on the cold floor on one knee, I said yes.
In logical terms, I thought that from all the people I have met (quite a few), there was no one better than him and no one I admired, loved and adored as much. And I was already certain I would spend the rest of my life with him. There was never anyone else I trusted so much... So, why not celebrate it?

I thought it would be fun until I had to do over 100 invites, try dresses, realized I would be in the middle of hundreds of people (it's not that bad, I like them all, just didn't realize we were this popular) etc... I can't wait for life after the wedding.

[Monte314]

Marriage is the very best thing there is in the world, for many reasons.

Part of the recent confusion concerning marriage is that we have forgotten what is special about it. And, it's design as an exclusive, intimate, lifelong, other-oriented institution runs counter to what people *think* they want: a promiscuous, shallow, temporary, selfish institution (which will never satisfy).

[Harmony]

What is marriage life like? Is it good or bad?

If you marry the right person it's amazing...the wrong person and it's terrible.

I made the mistake of marrying someone that I apparently didn't know as well as I thought I did. He's mucked up my credit with his irresponsible attitude. He wouldn't listen to any advice that I gave him... Even though I was older and had been through more than him... Even though I had worked in the credit industry for 5 years... And even though I had taken a real estate course... He was still convinced that he knew more than I did, even though he had never experienced any of it like I had. It was just generally one big argument after another between me and him because of his immaturity. I think what really set me off is when he told me he didn't need college because he already had a good paying job... When I asked what he would do if he ever lost that good paying job he said he'd figure that out when the time came... (He's an ENFJ)

Now my friends on the other side of things... They have a fantastic marriage. They rarely fight, and when they do 15 minutes later they are laughing about it. They understand each other when it comes to finances. In general, they just click better than anyone I've seen.

Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?

I can't say I'll recommend marriage to anyone... It's something people need to decide for themselves. The only thing I will say is... If you want to get married, make sure you really know the person. I would say date them for at least a year before popping the question.

[Visum]

I married a little over 8 years ago and I believe love is a choice. Focus on being the right person rather than finding the right person. The right person will come along, but in the meantime focus on who you are and what you can bring to the marriage. There is no such thing as perfection, and I would wager that those men you spoke to need to think about their marriage expectations and focus on pleasing their spouses before waiting to be pleased. Marriage is not easy, but it is worth it. I am continually challenged and stretched by my spouse and I know I am a better man for it. I agree with what Monte wrote, and remember it takes two to tango. Take responsibility for your actions and take care not to blame others for your situation when times are difficult. They will come, but it is how you get through it that matters.
Oh, and along with what Kymbirleigh wrote, I knew my wife as good friends for about 4 years before we married.

[dalidaisy]

Ummm... Terrible experiences here. I don't think you wanna hear about mine. I'd like to agree with the others that said "find the right person" for a good marriage. This is where I went wrong.

Oh, and I never recommend marriage to anyone...

[Bobert]

Got married when I was 20 (non-pregnancy "forced"). Been married 18 years, together 19.

I was told the same: you're too young, don't do it, blah blah blah. Fuck em!
Our attitude when we got married was that if it doesn't work, fine. We'd get a divorce. Big deal. Get on with our lives.

If you're in love, and marraige seems right, then just do it. "Get busy living, or get busy dying."

PS. eloped, btw.

PPS. Beware of the "7 year itch".

[uncon]

What is marriage life like? Is it good or bad?

Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?

There are a couple of constants in studies done about this sort of thing. One is that men are happier when married (women also, but less so than men) and the other is that people are unhappy when they have children. The arc of happiness starts heading upwards just after the children move out.

These findings are pretty consistent every time they do this sort of study. Married men also live longer b/c women tend to have a positive influence on them in terms of safer behavior and better diet.

From my perspective, I was emotionally retarded before I got married. This caused a lot of problems but if you don't take it personally you can learn a lot about yourself. I would suggest that you marry an NF if you're an NT. S and N don't work in the long run and too much T doesn't allow you to learn about sides of yourself that're the most underdeveloped.

Most men that complain about marriage are married. This is b/c they're focusing on the drawbacks or they've lost their balls (which is their choice actually). There are drawbacks (or compromises) but losing your balls shouldn't be one of them. Women probably have more to complain about concerning marriage b/c their livelihood (I mean economic) depends on it more and they can easily lose their identity (wife role, mommy role, etc). When women get divorced their income goes down - when men do it goes up. It's still patriarchy for lack of a better term.

It's a team effort at its best and it shouldn't be adversarial. No blaming your partner for your decisions. Just be aware that you control your life even though you're making joint decisions.

In sum - studies show you're more likely to be happy if married, less so if you have children (at least while raising them) and don't lose your personal identity (if female) or balls (if male). Good luck!

[Jinxu]

Ummm... Terrible experiences here. I don't think you wanna hear about mine. I'd like to agree with the others that said "find the right person" for a good marriage. This is where I went wrong.

Oh, and I never recommend marriage to anyone...

I don't mind hearing. It's always good to know the bad. How do you know if it's the "right person"? What signs do you look for? What are some of the red flags to look out for? I've head women can be very good actresses during the dating stage. Only showing you their good side.

[Rho1334]

i wouldnt recommend marriage to anyone unless you know there can be no one else. My marriage was a disaster from day one. Was too loyal to divorce...she did it for me, cheated on me and everything.

"When you fall in love, it is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake, and then it subsides. And when it subsides, you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots are become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the desire to mate every second of the day. It is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing every part of your body. No... don't blush. I am telling you some truths. For that is just being in love; which any of us can convince ourselves we are. Love itself is what is left over, when being in love has burned away. Doesn't sound very exciting, does it? But it is! " Quote from Captain Corelli's Mandolin

Until that is reliezed I wouldn't even consider marriage. Plus people act all the time, get them into uncomfortable situations and you'll see what they are really like.

[azelismia]

I agree with visium and monte.

Marriage is what you bring to it. it's going to be wrong for some people and right for others. If you choose to marry based on someone's looks or S3x appeal without being a best friend as well it's probably not going to work in the long term. Looks fade. you need something solid to hold you together.

[JustMel]

Being in heat and being in love feel the same at first. Wait to make sure it's love and not lust. Then wait some more to ensure that those "cute" and "enduring" quirks that you love now won't drive you nuts 5 years from now. Wait some more to make sure you are going to be happy only having sex with that one person for the rest of your life. Wait some more to make sure you're on the same page with child rearing, money, values and goals. If one partner sees themselves in the same place, house and friends in 10 years and the other sees moving cross country, new house and friends that are transient you're likely to have issues.

If you've waited this long and still want to get married then go for it.

[Bobert]

How do you know if it's the "right person"? What signs do you look for? What are some of the red flags to look out for?

There are no guarentees - that would make things easy.

Does the idea of marriage feel right?

Communication has been the crux of most marriages. Talk to your other. We can't tell you what to do. It's your choice. You decide.

[Sequoia]

I know that marriage is a broad subject with a lot of topics that can be discussed. But I keep hearing more and more from older men that marriage life is not all that great. "It's sucks" and "Don't ever do it" are some of the comments.

I want to ask the older members here two (or four) basic questions:

What is marriage life like? Is it good or bad?

Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?

My h is INTJ. We've been married 28 years. From the start we were like best friends in addition to the deeper feelings. We respected each other and put both of our needs, wants and desires on an equal footing. We didn't play games at the start but showed our true selves. He proposed 3 weeks after we met. Sometimes it doesn't take that long to know, if both people are upfront and honest.

I would not recommend marriage if any of the following is there: One of the individuals relies on the other for self esteem. One of the individuals is on the rebound or getting over a major trajedy like the death of a loved one (for that, wait until the person recovers and then see). One of the individuals is manipulive or withholding. If both are not on an equal footing in the relationship or if one is enabling the other. If you find you have to be less than honest or show your real self for fear of rejection.

If there is plenty of respect and self respect, if both are equal and there is love, then if both wish marriage, go for it. Chances are, it will work well.

[Maja]

Being married is difficult because you're always expected to give more than you think you can. If you don't want to give and think you're the bees' knees, well, in this day in age you probably shouldn't get married. There are plenty of ladies/men willing to procreate with you for the free s*^ts and giggles...if that's what you're worried about.

If it's something else (and there are only two real reasons to get married...teammates and/or procreation mates), then you have to be ready for what being a real team entails. All people grow throughout their life. You will and they will. You have to be willing to meet each other in each different moment. Or at least expect the other will try. It's not a matter of them being on the "same page" or not because none of us know on what page our growth is going to be in the future.

A good gauge is if you feel liberally comfortable with the person no matter what you do or say. Not if they always agree, but if you feel comfortable broaching the subject. Do you think they would talk with you seriously about the prospect of moving to Kazakhstan? Would they be okay with one income for no special reason? Would you? What if they became an alcoholic? Or cheated on you? Would there still be a reason for you to keep trying? Do you fear responses from them about political or social thoughts? (IE feel the need to be PC around them.) Do you make exceptions in your hobbies or obsessions for them? Why? Frankly, these people are going to be the ones to see you at your worst... always. You have to ask yourself if you really mind. If you can't let them know that their jacket smells like cat piss and the way they act in the grocery store pisses people off without fear of severe repercussions or problems, then think twice or wait to develop. There's nothing wrong with waiting.

Generally, living with someone for three years will be the absolute hump. You'll know if you can keep standing them or if they're just a good friend. Unfortunately, good friends and good marriage-partners look a lot a like but are very different.

There are of course reasons why decently paired people might break up, but, asking yourself the above sorts of questions might point you to a person who's beyond a roommate match. It's the roommate-friend you have to watch out for more than the lusty crush. If you wait long enough, only the roommate will fool you.

[Macbeth]

I would recommend you do actual research on marriage statistics as well as books about the subjects. I say this because there are a lot of things about marriage and relationships that are the opposite to what is preached today.

For example: Couples who lived together before marrying have a higher divorce rate than those who did not. NY Times article here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Another, later article here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Here is "the marriage project" run by Rutgers University: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Maja]

Other than noting all the underlying social reasons that marriage statistics exist, information and statistics are nothing when it comes down to actually being married. They're something to pass the time over coffee. It's how you and the other person feel and act within your private selves that makes the difference to you. Forget other people. There is no way to compare your marriage against another person's. It is unique to you. Can you imagine telling a person who wants to leave you, "You can't leave me. Statistically, it's unlikely." If that was all we needed no one would ever seek relationship advice.

The reason most people break up is because they hope for what they aren't getting and are blind to what they are doing themselves. It used to be that no one could divorce without blacklisting themselves, so people rarely did. Today, the human demons of selfishness and shortsightedness are allowed to be out in the open as much as we want them to be. Ultimately, that might be just what helps, since by being so open we are forcing ourselves to evolve society's oldest inter-dynamic.

[Jinxu]

Here's an interesting question. We know that INTJ type don't really used their feeling or can't feel love. So, How can an INTJ be in a relationship with a women if he does not feel anything for her? This is despite whether he like her or not.

[Storm]

Here's an interesting question. We know that INTJ type don't really used their feeling or can't feel love. So, How can an INTJ be in a relationship with a women if he does not feel anything for her? This is despite whether he like her or not.

This is a joke question right?

[Jinxu]

This is a joke question right?

Nope.

[Deliberator]

That's like asking, "is swimming bad?" Well that depends doesn't it... swimming in battery acid might not be so pleasant, but swimming off of a sandy Caribbean beach is pretty nice.

Get my drift?



Personally I love marriage. I was married almost two years ago at the age of 21, and we'd been dating since I was 19.
It helps that I:
(1) am married to someone who shares my values
(2) am married to someone who has a compatible personality
(3) treat my marriage and commitment seriously
(4) treat my husband with care and respect
(5) enjoy having just a few very solid personal relationships (makes home life very stable)
(6) don't like the idea of dating or "trying new things"
(7) understand that marriage isn't always a bed of roses
(8) Willing to put in hard work to carefully nurture the relationship
(9) Don't take things personally
(10) Seek to understand before making judgments

Those are just a few things that make it manageable. I'd say it's also good to research the signs of a bad relationship. There are mountains of information on it out there, do a google search. I researched the hell out of marriage stats and warning signs of a bad relationship before deciding positively that we had something that would last. My husband is an oasis in a vast desert of idiocy.





Deliberator added to this post, 0 minutes and 39 seconds later...

Here's an interesting question. We know that INTJ type don't really used their feeling or can't feel love. So, How can an INTJ be in a relationship with a women if he does not feel anything for her? This is despite whether he like her or not.

I feel love...

[Storm]

OK, T does not mean you have no emotions, it speaks to decisions only. Really Thinking and Feeling are bad words, Objective and Subjective would have been better.

INTJs are perfectly capable of love. We are human.

[JustMel]

I would recommend you do actual research on marriage statistics as well as books about the subjects. I say this because there are a lot of things about marriage and relationships that are the opposite to what is preached today.

For example: Couples who lived together before marrying have a higher divorce rate than those who did not. NY Times article here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Another, later article here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Here is "the marriage project" run by Rutgers University: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Statistics can be skewed to fit either side. I'm sure they haven't gone to every court where divorces are handled, combed through the records, contacted those people to ask if they lived together before marriage.

Then you'd have to break it down to how long they lived together prior to getting married then divorced. If they lived together for a month and then decided to get married I would think the statistics would be higher than those that lived together for 5-10 years before getting married.

[Synamon]

Here's an interesting question. We know that INTJ type don't really used their feeling or can't feel love. So, How can an INTJ be in a relationship with a women if he does not feel anything for her? This is despite whether he like her or not.
What? "We" know no such thing. If you can't feel love then I pity you and have no idea why you are posting in relationship threads or asking about marriage.

[Jinxu]

What? "We" know no such thing. If you can't feel love then I pity you and have no idea why you are posting in relationship threads or asking about marriage.

As a matter of fact, I've made a thread about that a long time ago here:

Can any of you "feel" Love?
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Conclusion: Some people do not feel love.





Jinxu added to this post, 4 minutes and 55 seconds later...

OK, T does not mean you have no emotions, it speaks to decisions only. Really Thinking and Feeling are bad words, Objective and Subjective would have been better.


Hmm...Maybe they are related.

[Storm]

Conclusion: Some people do not feel love.

Or haven't felt it yet..The best way to describe it is through a scenario. I'll use my little brother as the subject. If we had just had a huge, terrible fight and we vowed never to speak to each other again, but then he walked onto a train track with a train coming. No matter how little chance I had of reaching him, even if the train was right on top of him, I know I would rush forward without thought, without regard for myself to save him. That is love. It's not a desire to always be kind and courteous and mushy. It's a willingness, a need, to sacrifice everything for the other person. (I realize I'm describing sibling love here, but I think there are similarities)

[Jinxu]

I disagree. I think what you are describing is a sense of protectiveness and I don't think it has to be the same as love.

P.S. I have felt it before when I was younger. I do still feel it occasionally, but I've began to realize it is more like a mood swing. It will be there for a moment, but then the next day it's gone.

[theDoc]

Now now, love is giving someone the chance to ruin you mentally, financially, emotionally and physically yet trusting they don't do so.

[Macbeth]

Other than noting all the underlying social reasons that marriage statistics exist, information and statistics are nothing when it comes down to actually being married. They're something to pass the time over coffee. It's how you and the other person feel and act within your private selves that makes the difference to you. Forget other people. There is no way to compare your marriage against another person's. It is unique to you. Can you imagine telling a person who wants to leave you, "You can't leave me. Statistically, it's unlikely." If that was all we needed no one would ever seek relationship advice. .

Fail.

Human beings behave in very predictable patterns. You CAN predict behavior with statistics -- that's how we know who the President of the United States is going to be every time long before all the votes are actually counted. Social Sciences as well as psychology could never exists if human beings couldn't be turned into numbers, which they obviously can.

Here is a good article from the Rutgers Site:

Ten Important Research Findings on Marriage and Choosing a Marriage Partner

-Helpful Facts for Young Adults-

1. Marrying as a teenager is the highest known risk factor for divorce.

People who marry in their teens are two to three times more likely to divorce than people who marry in their twenties or older.

2. The most likely way to find a future marriage partner is through an introduction by family, friends, or acquaintances.

Despite the romantic notion that people meet and fall in love through chance or fate, the evidence suggests that social networks are important in bringing together individuals of similar interests and backgrounds, especially when it comes to selecting a marriage partner. According to a large-scale national survey of sexuality, almost sixty percent of married people were introduced by family, friends, co-workers or other acquaintances.

3. The more similar people are in their values, backgrounds and life goals, the more likely they are to have a successful marriage.

Opposites may attract but they may not live together harmoniously as married couples. People who share common backgrounds and similar social networks are better suited as marriage partners than people who are very different in their backgrounds and networks.

4. Women have a significantly better chance of marrying if they do not become single parents before marrying.

Having a child out of wedlock reduces the chances of ever marrying. Despite the growing numbers of potential marriage partners with children, one study noted, "having children is still one of the least desirable characteristics a potential marriage partner can possess." The only partner characteristic men and women rank as even less desirable than having children is the inability to hold a steady job.

5. Both women and men who are college educated are more likely to marry, and less likely to divorce, than people with lower levels of education.

Despite occasional news stories predicting lifelong singlehood for college-educated women, these predictions have proven false. Though the first generation of college educated women (those who earned baccalaureate degrees in the 1920s) married less frequently than their less well-educated peers, the reverse is true today. College educated women's chances of marrying are better than less well-educated women. However, the growing gender gap in college education may make it more difficult for college women to find similarly well-educated men in the future. This is already a problem for African-American female college graduates, who greatly outnumber African-American male college graduates.

6. Living together before marriage has not proved useful as a "trial marriage."

People who have multiple cohabiting relationships before marriage are more likely to experience marital conflict, marital unhappiness and eventual divorce than people who do not cohabit before marriage. Researchers attribute some but not all of these differences to the differing characteristics of people who cohabit, the so-called "selection effect," rather than to the experience of cohabiting itself. It has been hypothesized that the negative effects of cohabitation on future marital success may diminish as living together becomes a common experience among today's young adults. However, according to one recent study of couples who were married between 1981 and 1997, the negative effects persist among younger cohorts, supporting the view that the cohabitation experience itself contributes to problems in marriage.

7. Marriage helps people to generate income and wealth.

Compared to those who merely live together, people who marry become economically better off. Men become more productive after marriage; they earn between ten and forty percent more than do single men with similar education and job histories. Marital social norms that encourage healthy, productive behavior and wealth accumulation play a role. Some of the greater wealth of married couples results from their more efficient specialization and pooling of resources, and because they save more. Married people also receive more money from family members than the unmarried (including cohabiting couples), probably because families consider marriage more permanent and more binding than a living-together union.

8. People who are married are more likely to have emotionally and physically satisfying sex lives than single people or those who just live together.

Contrary to the popular belief that married sex is boring and infrequent, married people report higher levels of sexual satisfaction than both sexually active singles and cohabiting couples, according to the most comprehensive and recent survey of sexuality. Forty-two percent of wives said that they found sex extremely emotionally and physically satisfying, compared to just 31 percent of single women who had a sex partner. And 48 percent of husbands said sex was extremely satisfying emotionally, compared to just 37 percent of cohabiting men. The higher level of commitment in marriage is probably the reason for the high level of reported sexual satisfaction; marital commitment contributes to a greater sense of trust and security, less drug and alcohol-infused sex, and more mutual communication between the couple.

9. People who grow up in a family broken by divorce are slightly less likely to marry, and much more likely to divorce when they do marry.

According to one study the divorce risk nearly triples if one marries someone who also comes from a broken home. The increased risk is much lower, however, if the marital partner is someone who grew up in a happy, intact family.

10. For large segments of the population, the risk of divorce is far below fifty percent.

Although the overall divorce rate in America remains close to fifty percent of all marriages, it has been dropping gradually over the past two decades. Also, the risk of divorce is far below fifty percent for educated people going into their first marriage, and lower still for people who wait to marry at least until their mid-twenties, haven't lived with many different partners prior to marriage, or are strongly religious and marry someone of the same faith.

Original with citations: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.





Macbeth added to this post, 7 minutes and 18 seconds later...

Statistics can be skewed to fit either side. I'm sure they haven't gone to every court where divorces are handled, combed through the records, contacted those people to ask if they lived together before marriage.

Then you'd have to break it down to how long they lived together prior to getting married then divorced. If they lived together for a month and then decided to get married I would think the statistics would be higher than those that lived together for 5-10 years before getting married.

I'm sure you know better than the trained Phd social scientists at Rutgers University.

Let's see, who has more credibility? A team of people who have spent years of their life on research, or random guy on the interwebs. Must be random guy on the interwebs. Yeah that's it.

[JustMel]

I disagree. I think what you are describing is a sense of protectiveness and I don't think it has to be the same as love.

P.S. I have felt it before when I was younger. I do still feel it occasionally, but I've began to realize it is more like a mood swing. It will be there for a moment, but then the next day it's gone.

Love is something that doesn't come and go. It can be killed by betrayal and it may wither over time if not tended but if you really love someone you love them even when they hurt you.

Protectiveness is not the same and not at all what Storm was describing. I'm protective of my deaf cat. I don't want anyone fucking with her or aggravating her. I wouldn't throw myself in front of a train with no regard for my own safety for the cat. I would for my husband or my children. Some people love their animals the same way I love my kids and husband and they would throw themselves in front of the train.

There are degrees of love just as there are degrees of hate. There are people who don't feel love no matter how others love them and they never feel what it is to truly love someone or be loved by someone.

You can say you felt it when younger but it went away and it's a mood swing but that's not love. You'll know. Anyone who has ever been in love, true love will tell you that what they felt when they fell in love can't hold a candle to what they felt when they thought they loved.

Macbeth added to this post, 7 minutes and 18 seconds later...



Originally Posted by JustMel
Statistics can be skewed to fit either side. I'm sure they haven't gone to every court where divorces are handled, combed through the records, contacted those people to ask if they lived together before marriage.

Then you'd have to break it down to how long they lived together prior to getting married then divorced. If they lived together for a month and then decided to get married I would think the statistics would be higher than those that lived together for 5-10 years before getting married.


I'm sure you know better than the trained Phd social scientists at Rutgers University.

Let's see, who has more credibility? A team of people who have spent years of their life on research, or random guy on the interwebs. Must be random guy on the interwebs. Yeah that's it.

First of all I'm not a guy. Second of all you don't know whether I have a Phd or not. You have no idea how many people I've counseled. You have no idea how many studies I've participated in. You can quote statistics all day everyday and they do not represent everyone. They can be skewed and they can, a lot of times, be refuted. We DO NOT know who the President will be everytime because there are 3 times in history that the President was elected who didn't win the popular vote. You know that thing where the electoral college is supposed to vote with the majority of their state and they don't always.

The teen marriage statistics are not accurate of all teen marriages, they are relative to current times and social trends. Forty and fifty years ago teens got married and stayed that way because divorce was rare. Divorces weren't "popular" until the 60's when "free love" became popular.

Furthermore, they can say that "X number of women" say sex is better when you're married or they have sex more than couples who live together or who have casual sex partners. Again, it is based on X number of people. That's why statistics are fallible. They are not indicative of the whole. There maybe a pattern and it may be a small pattern but statistically it's huge. Statistics are numbers thrown out by scientists to prove their point or disprove someone else's. Unless you ask every single person in the country about their marriage and habits you will not get the true 'big picture'.

I live in the state with the highest number of teen pregnancies. I also live in a state with a lower divorce rate. If you take my graduating class of 1306 there were 211 couples that were together and planning to get married where both partners were seniors. Of those 211 there were 189 marriages. Of those marriages 27 are single or remarried due to death of a spouse. 12 are divorced due to one of the spouses going to prison. 23 more of them are divorced because of various other reasons. The rest are still together.

What's even stranger is that state by state NONE of them report divorce rates of anywhere close to 50 percent. In fact I would trust the actual census statistics much more than your scientists who are out to PROVE their point with a limited number of people.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[dotchje]

I have been thinking like you for years: I cannot love, emotions are not for me And one day without, any preparation, a lady destroyed my heart in 3 hours… I really had a tough time, it took me a couple of months to recover. Believe it or not, I ld really like to feel that again.

[uncon]

I disagree. I think what you are describing is a sense of protectiveness and I don't think it has to be the same as love.

P.S. I have felt it before when I was younger. I do still feel it occasionally, but I've began to realize it is more like a mood swing. It will be there for a moment, but then the next day it's gone.

You feel love but you may suppress your awareness of it. Or you are a robot. Or you could be a sociopath, most of them don't murder - but then you have to ask yourself why would a creature that can't feel any emotions kill something? Robots don't kill or at least they don't murder (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(robot_fatality)). So, even sociopaths feel emotions but their awareness of them is severely suppressed b/c of abuse. They act out on their out of awareness feelings, probably mostly fear/aggression, hence the killing of others.

OK, back to the point. In conclusion, if you feel about your mommy the same way as you feel about a potato then you are a robot (although I can't help but want to hug some robots):

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Maja]

After all that, the thread's not really asking the definition of love or about how many 17 year olds get divorced.

You want to know if marriage is good or bad, and if it comes recommended.

It is good if you keep in mind two things:


It only "works" if the two people involved understand, or are willing to understand, how one another works. Two people who stay married but hate each other are not to be considered a working marriage.

People and circumstances change daily. Life goes on, as they say. You will seem different to others in five years. Your parents will seem like different people to you in ten. One day you will ask yourself if you ever really knew your sibling as a real person. Everyone has their own reality. This goes for married people as well. No matter how well you think you know them, you have to be willing to recognize each others' stages of growth. Good can turn bad and bad can turn good.


However, even a failed marriage can teach a person a lot about themselves, so in that sense, bad marriages can also be good.

Marriage is not about getting sexy ladies, having a live in maid, free rent, or even living with your best friend. It can have those things but that's not what makes it what it is. You've heard people refer to marriage as making you a man, or that marriage is a commitment...This isn't really referring to it being a law, or a religious rite, or something that involves a sexual relationship, or even that "til death do us part" itself is the promise...

The promise is one you make to yourself more than anyone else. You're saying that you are ready to handle what it means to become a part of society in a very particular way. What do I mean here...This doesn't mean that unmarried people are not part of society or that they aren't ready to do what I'm about to say and just haven't found the right person, but there is a subtle layer here that is at the heart of what "sociology" and "society" is all about and what "partnership" is all about. I would imagine it's at the heart of the argument of what "marriage" is...I'm certainly meaning to refer to all cultural pairings of the nuclear sort everywhere. When you agree to marry someone, you are saying you are capable of taking on the task of not just getting to know them as they change, but getting to know yourself as you change, to manage the difference, to pay attention to how the world around you is impacted by those changes, to realize how your relationship is impacted by the world around you, and then as well, how those big changes affect the smaller changes in each of you, then take on the active negotiation of those challenges in an intimate way.

[boldbidder]

If you're an INTJ planning on getting married then there's really on question that needs to be answered, can you be yourself with your partner? I don't mean this in the cliched fashion that stuff like that is often bandied about because the majority of the population doesn't have enough layers to their personality to truly make them that complex. As an INTJ is your partner going to run away and hide when one of 'the voices' in your heads grabs the reigns and blurts out something disturbing? If you've found someone mentally flexible enough to hang with that then I'd say you're pretty golden.

I'll be married 6 years this August and I knew very early on my wife was a keeper. When we first started dating I'd casually mention that I someday would like to take over the world; she was cool with that. I mentioned I was an atheist; she was cool with that too (can't tell how excruciatingly hard it is to find a black woman in America who won't go running for the hills when I drop that bomb). I'd mention the desire to live abroad one day, she was cool with that too as long as it was warm. I continued to share my inner-workings with her like no other and she remained unflappable, perhaps momentarily taken aback by some of my more militant views but that would only lead to a very worth while discussion about the issue. We were on the same page regarding our life goals and on top of all that I adored spending time with her, wasn't tired out like I was in dealing with girlfriends prior.

I know I kind of went on a tangential bout of blathering, but bottom line is whether your partner is comfortable with you and all the friends you have living in your head.

[Maja]

Oh man... this one was a big question I didn't notice much at first.

I don't mind hearing. It's always good to know the bad. How do you know if it's the "right person"? What signs do you look for? What are some of the red flags to look out for? I've head women can be very good actresses during the dating stage. Only showing you their good side.

Like others have said, a lot of this rests on how much you get to know each other and how soon. It's a two way street though... Some people are so focused on sharing themselves or being real themselves they don't notice that the other person is having a hard time or not trying at all. Sharing has to be an effort done by both at the same time.

This might just have to do with being at two different stages in life. Just because you and another person appear to be from completely different planets doesn't mean it won't ever start to jive, but it might mean that it might not get on the right path soon enough for you. It doesn't mean either of you are bad people. That's why not everyone can be married to everyone.

I have had three long term relationships (long term being over a year and a half), the last one being my marriage. Each one was dating under the consideration of marriage. The first one broke up due to immaturity and circumstance. Our intellectual levels and passions were similar but the way we thought of things and expressed our feelings were very different. Would it have worked out in a different time? Maybe. But it wasn't ready fast enough to live through what it needed to perform.

The second was enough to be considered an engagement although we hadn't decided to get married yet. It ended over completely different stages in life. The circumstances were right. Our personalities very similar. The way we thought and expressed things similar. Our desires similar. But even to this day, things I decided upon ten years ago he's just now discovering. Angst that I'm trying hard to overcome or have forgotten is still a problem for him. He wasn't helping me grow as a person and I couldn't help him look to the future, because I was too far ahead. Would it have worked if I had realized that was the reason for stagnation? Who knows.

The third I married. Subconsciously, I think he seemed like a mixture of the two. And maybe that's correct. We aren't necessarily alike in any specific way but are just enough alike in all ways so that I can tell when he's trying to be helpful to me and I can figure out how I can be helpful to him. This doesn't mean there aren't problems but it was apparent early on that phrases like, "I'd like to think X," or, "I'd like to feel X" were responded to seriously.

Even when they don't ultimately understand, if the number of times they respond to your expressions for you outweigh the times they react to them for the circumstance or for themselves, that's a good sign.

Boldbidder:...is your partner going to run away and hide when one of 'the voices' in your heads grabs the reigns and blurts out something disturbing?

lol A good way to put that.

[dalidaisy]

If you're an INTJ planning on getting married then there's really on question that needs to be answered, can you be yourself with your partner?

Oh, this is it for me, really...


I was married for 7 years to a man who had no idea who I was. My inner thoughts never left my lips & he was never able to get me to open up, either. The me ha saw was somewhat of a facade I'd had as a defense mechanism for dealing with people in social situations. I mean, sure, I'm fun & carefree, but I've got many more layers than that. Whenever I got the urge to try & open up about some part of me, the initial shock/horror at what I said usually led to me saying "just kidding" & moving on. He was happy with the superficial me & had no real interest in the rest of me. I was a single mom with rather low self esteem at the time (I had no idea of my MBTI type & was still under the impression that I was just somehow broken) & was excited at the fact that he thought I was the coolest person he ever met.

I cannot really remember so much why I allowed myself to marry him. He was fun & carefree & flowing with personality (ESFP). He helped me see a different part of life & was very good at manipulation. He convinced me that marriage was the best idea. I guess I was just happy to have someone love me so much & want to be with me so badly that I caved, thinking one day, I would grow to love him in return. Unfortunately, this never happened. From day one, the crack started. It eventually grew into something the size of the Grand Canyon & there was just no way to bridge it.

There is no blame to lay here, really. I kept a huge part of me to myself & he was completely fine with it. He also broke every promise he made to me, while I broke none (until I left). We grew apart during our 7 year marriage & there wasn't one good reason to try & save it. I think our kids would suffer more if we stayed together.

Looking back, I realize that we were completely incompatible. I wasn't able to see it at the time. You can just get so blinded by excitement & emotions that you can't quite see the big picture. Plus, there were a lot of things that you may have missed that appear BIG TIME after the paper is signed. Marriage opens a door into the other person. You better hope they gave you a good description of what was behind the door, or you may be buried beneath a pile of lies & half truths for years, maybe forever.

[LPM]

My marriage is going on 16 years. We married young, which is what is encouraged in our religion/culture. We were immature and dumb, but from a similar background with similar goals and fell in love. The marriage has endured through some serious rocky times, probably most of them my fault. Sometimes it was pure hell. Many times I was sure it would not last. Now I'm sure it will. It's an amazing thing to grow up together with your best friend and the one you love. Our kids bring us a lot of fulfillment and joy.

I strongly recommend marriage and kids. Here are my recommendations for a happy marriage:

1. Choose your mate very carefully. Find someone with a common background and common goals. for example, I just watched Vicky Cristina Barcelona. Javier Bardem fought like crazy with Penelope Cruz but he would have never lasted long term with Scarlett Johansen or the other chick--too different.

2. Be committed to marriage. You will have every reason in the world to split a number of times throughout the marriage, and be justified in doing so. You should hope for just enough storms to enjoy a beautiful sunset.

3. Have the right expectations. You will have to work hard. It will feel like you are ALWAYS giving in, ALWAYS sacrificing, ALWAYS taking the high road, and your mate is never doing these. Reality is he/she probably feels the same.

4. Find a good marriage counselor.

[Jinxu]

What are the pros and cons of getting married and remaining a bachelor for life?

[Nemesis]

Marriage Cons.

Men who marry often live longer than men who don't. The reasons why this occurs seem to be unknown, but I suspect it is out of spite;).

30%-50% of Men report having an extramarital affair. 20%-40% of Women report having an extramarital affair. Keep in mind these are self reported figures and the actual number is likely higher. Look up a researcher named David Buss if you want to see the hard data for yourself.

13% of all homicides are spousal murders.

The frequency of sex drops drastically over time for married people.

Marital satisfaction for women drops between 45-59 years of age.

Marriage Pro.

I imagine marriage would be exciting if you are the gambling type.

***If you really want me to source the stats, I will.

[Indy]

I'm planning to get engaged this summer, but now I can already say to my friends and family that I can really imagine myself living together with her for the rest of my life. So what would an engagement or later marriage add to that statement?

Marriage seems a bit of a strange social convention to me. What is the reason you got married, instead of just living together with your partner? What makes 'marriage' so different? The act of marriage seems like a ceremony to show to the rest of the world, specifically your friends and family, that you'd like to spend the rest of your lives together. But does having a ceremony really affect the core of your relationship with your SO? Either you both know that the relationship is 'for real' or not, and I find it hard to see the impact of informing the outside world as a 'crossing the rubicon'.

As my SO is from a traditional Chinese family, 'marriage' is a big, big deal, the culmination of your life so to speak. China spends 13.36% of their GDP on weddings, $200 billion a year, $2.300 for each couple, in this still Third World Country. It's crazy...

[Nemesis]

As my SO is from a traditional Chinese family, 'marriage' is a big, big deal, the culmination of your life so to speak. China spends 13.36% of their GDP on weddings, $200 billion a year, $2.300 for each couple, in this still Third World Country. It's crazy...

Wow! Never would have guessed. That's really trippy.

[Valielen]

@ Indy: Oooh... get some knee pads for the tea cerimony :P If you got a big family, you may be on your knees pouring tea to the umpteen relatives for ages. *j/k... kinda*

I think the main difference that I have seen since getting engaged is that before I would keep on living with my SO and never question whether it was forever or not despite having no desire to be with anyone else.
Now because I feel that I will be adding to my own values that it is meant to be for good, it is a big deal. If I took it on the social norm only, then I would think that if things go wrong, there is always divorce. I don't see it that way. If I say it outloud, I will have to abide to it (or in some cases, I have to have evidence of truth). But this is a value I imposed on myself (hence why I don't talk that much) so I have spent many months weighing the chances of me not being able to maintain my promise. Maybe it is just my personality. My SO has not had any such thoughts. He has been super patient in answering all my questions. After a while, my doubt disappeared.

[More Tea]

I strongly recommend marriage and kids. Here are my recommendations for a happy marriage:

1. Choose your mate very carefully. Find someone with a common background and common goals. for example, I just watched Vicky Cristina Barcelona. Javier Bardem fought like crazy with Penelope Cruz but he would have never lasted long term with Scarlett Johansen or the other chick--too different.

2. Be committed to marriage. You will have every reason in the world to split a number of times throughout the marriage, and be justified in doing so. You should hope for just enough storms to enjoy a beautiful sunset.

3. Have the right expectations. You will have to work hard. It will feel like you are ALWAYS giving in, ALWAYS sacrificing, ALWAYS taking the high road, and your mate is never doing these. Reality is he/she probably feels the same.

4. Find a good marriage counselor.

I have to disagree with three out of four here, with the caveat that I am probably not from the same culture.

1. Total agreement. I think this is where many people make their mistake. It can be hard to know yourself enough to know what you need in a mate, though. Take your time and never, ever feel like you are settling.

2. Be committed to your own wholeness before any abstracts, including marriage. A divorce can actually be a wonderful thing. Personally, I am ecstatic that we no longer use the fault-based system of divorce that either locked people into unhappy and/or abusive marriages, or forced them to perjure themselves before the courts. Making yourself miserable for a "sunset" does not strike me as a good idea, but each to their own. Every person has to know when enough is enough for them.

3. Actually, I've been with the same guy eight years now and almost NEVER felt like that. But then, we're childfree. Maybe all that sacrificial stuff clicks in if you have kids (see earlier posts in this thread on how happiness decreases when raising children).

4. Haven't ever needed one with my husband. Not that marriage counselors can't be a help in some circumstances, I'm sure, but they aren't a panacea either. People are people, and people are complex. Some marriages just aren't going to work (if you define "work" in terms of both people enjoying some satisfaction, happiness, and mutual respect within the marriage... if you define "work" as not getting divorced, other rules apply).

[Jinxu]

Marriage Cons.

30%-50% of Men report having an extramarital affair. 20%-40% of Women report having an extramarital affair. Keep in mind these are self reported figures and the actual number is likely higher. Look up a researcher named David Buss if you want to see the hard data for yourself.

***If you really want me to source the stats, I will.

Sure, why not. Sources are always helpful.

I have a solution to the above statement. How can you find a partner who will agree to an open marriage? You know one where you can have relationships with other people beside your spouse. I know there are couples who does it and are happy/satisfied with the arrangement.

[Sequoia]

Sure, why not. Sources are always helpful.

I have a solution to the above statement. How can you find a partner who will agree to an open marriage? You know one where you can have relationships with other people beside your spouse. I know there are couples who does it and are happy/satisfied with the arrangement.

I only knew of one couple who did that and claimed to be happy and satisfied with the arrangement. They divorced.

[Visum]

Sure, why not. Sources are always helpful.

I have a solution to the above statement. How can you find a partner who will agree to an open marriage? You know one where you can have relationships with other people beside your spouse. I know there are couples who does it and are happy/satisfied with the arrangement.

I wouldn't even go here. In my opinion you will both be fooling yourselves that this will work, or even be beneficial. Besides, why get married if you want to have "relationships" with others? Marriage is about creating intimacy, stability, commitment, respect, safety...and much more..etc. Sex alone will not keep you together. I don't know if this was brought up in your love thread, but take a look at the Greek's understanding of love (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[Jinxu]

I only knew of one couple who did that and claimed to be happy and satisfied with the arrangement. They divorced.

That is disappointing to know.





Jinxu added to this post, 2 minutes and 55 seconds later...

Besides, why get married if you want to have "relationships" with others? Marriage is about creating intimacy, stability, commitment, respect, safety...and much more..etc. [/URL].

You mean beside love? Well there's money, less taxes, security, peer pressure, etc. You don't need love to get them.

About the second sentence, I'm not sure I am capable of doing those things.

[Visum]

That is disappointing to know.





Jinxu added to this post, 2 minutes and 55 seconds later...



You mean beside love? Well there's money, less taxes, security, peer pressure, etc. You don't need love to get them.
Well, I wasn't attempting to create the list of marriage benefits, hence "and much more".

About the second sentence, I'm not sure I am capable of doing those things.
Respectfully, I think a more accurate statement would be, I am not sure I have experience with, or understand those things. You have, and are capable of emotions, even if you don't understand them.

[Plastikcat]

I have no plan on marriage anytime soon.

[Storm]

My marriage is going on 16 years. We married young, which is what is encouraged in our religion/culture. We were immature and dumb, but from a similar background with similar goals and fell in love. The marriage has endured through some serious rocky times, probably most of them my fault. Sometimes it was pure hell. Many times I was sure it would not last. Now I'm sure it will. It's an amazing thing to grow up together with your best friend and the one you love. Our kids bring us a lot of fulfillment and joy.

I strongly recommend marriage and kids. Here are my recommendations for a happy marriage:

1. Choose your mate very carefully. Find someone with a common background and common goals. for example, I just watched Vicky Cristina Barcelona. Javier Bardem fought like crazy with Penelope Cruz but he would have never lasted long term with Scarlett Johansen or the other chick--too different.

2. Be committed to marriage. You will have every reason in the world to split a number of times throughout the marriage, and be justified in doing so. You should hope for just enough storms to enjoy a beautiful sunset.

3. Have the right expectations. You will have to work hard. It will feel like you are ALWAYS giving in, ALWAYS sacrificing, ALWAYS taking the high road, and your mate is never doing these. Reality is he/she probably feels the same.

4. Find a good marriage counselor.

I'm confused as to why you are recommending marriage? Could you elaborate on the good aspects for me?

[bethanygm]

I know that marriage is a broad subject with a lot of topics that can be discussed. But I keep hearing more and more from older men that marriage life is not all that great. "It's sucks" and "Don't ever do it" are some of the comments.

I want to ask the older members here two (or four) basic questions:

What is marriage life like? Is it good or bad?

Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?

I am married and it is awesome. I have never been this happy before, EVER.

Ok married life:
*Wake up next to the love of your life every day
*Work on interesting problems that require creative solutions (and compromise) (constantly learning things about your partner and new ways to communicate and make things work!)
*Usually have someone to hang out with, cuddle with, and be intimate with ;)
*Get to know someone very deeply over a long period of time, and share your life with them.
*Change and Grow with this person and feel accepted and loved by them.
*Experience many of life's various stages with your best friend.

This is all depending on if you picked the right mate! My husband and I knew right away that we were supposed to be together. I mean, within the first week, if not the first time we saw each other. We are also past the "honeymoon" stage, which is the stage where you feel very in love and your partner can do no wrong. We have encountered problems/misunderstandings/and disagreements, and emerged stronger from them (communication is key). We know a lot of unhappily married couples, and it really seems like they are stumbling in the areas of communication and making the effort to understand each others differences. We have both read "the five love languages", attending marriage seminars, and learned about eachothers personality types and preferences. Marriage is hard work, but very fulfilling. (plus, we like a good challenge, don't we?)

"Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?"

I don't know what you are talking about. You need to marry someone you fit well with, and who loves you for who you are, attempts to understand you, and accepts you even if they don't always get you. I am 24 and my husband is 31. I recommend that women marry older men. Men seem to mature later in life, generally. My parents are divorced and my husbands are not. This has REALLY helped us. I would be feeling like there was no hope for us during some of our low points, because all I saw was differences that could tear us apart. My husband saw differences as challenges to be overcome. We learned these things by watching our parents. My husbands faith in our marriage (and marriage as an institution) really really helped get me through the first few rough patches.

I'm an INTP/J (50/50 on the P and J on nearly every test.. so I just don't know, honestly.)
and my husband is definitely an ENFP.
We are a very good fit.

[Maja]

I am 24 and my husband is 31. I recommend that women marry older men. Men seem to mature later in life, generally. My parents are divorced and my husbands are not. This has REALLY helped us. I would be feeling like there was no hope for us during some of our low points, because all I saw was differences that could tear us apart. My husband saw differences as challenges to be overcome. We learned these things by watching our parents. My husbands faith in our marriage (and marriage as an institution) really really helped get me through the first few rough patches.

There is the same age difference in my marriage (as Bethany's). It was in my grandparent's marriage as well. IThere was also a similar age spread to the last long relationship I had. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the recipe for happiness, but, I guess as with anything else maturity is something to consider and older men might have a tendency to share points of view with younger women more often.

As far as the question up there about it seeming like a social convention, well, it IS a social convention. We have no choice but to be social in a pair or as a part of a group. It's the definition. Once you live with another person you are automatically social, so, why bother about trying to pretend you're not? You can always pull away from society and be strictly an individual but your sense of reality will become so different it may not be worth it in the end. Pulling away as two people can be done. You can make your own reality and ignore everything around you, but why? Since all societies have some form of marriage, it's sort of pointless not to allow yourself to whatever exists in your own...because if you don't use your own society's methods you'll simply end up imitating another society's methods (since you can't escape needing some sort of social method to live in a society, even if it's only a society of two). You'll just be living another social convention but without the benefits afforded you by your own. Worrying more about social convention than your partnership's reality sounds a little like worrying about your identity as an individual. This isn't about your identity as an individual, so it shouldn't matter.

[PortInStorm]

BIG con- loss of freedom.

Someone all of a sudden has a "right" to dictate what you do/don't do, what you feel, how you do something etc.

[Sequoia]

BIG con- loss of freedom.

Someone all of a sudden has a "right" to dictate what you do/don't do, what you feel, how you do something etc.

Only in controlling relationships. In our marriage, I don't tell my husband what to do or how to do it and he knows to never even consider to do that with me. The only exception is if we're asking each other for help on a project or something and working together.

Because of this respect of each other as individuals, we both find ourselves quite willing to do things for the other.

btw, there is only one year age difference between us.

[PortInStorm]

No, see I knew someone would take it that way-sorry, I should be more specific. It seems to be the nature of a marriage that it comes with all this baggage of expectation about how partners "should" act now that they're married. I know this is no unique and mind-boggling contribution to the thread, but it bugs me big time.

You say that you would never dictate, control etc, but people do it all the time just by their reactions. If he picked his nose and wiped it on the tablecloth at Easter in front of your friends or family, you'd probably think it reflected badly on you and have some kind of negative reaction. That is a way of controlling. If he was not married to you, you might not care as much and leave him be to pick himself a winner.

It's all about the invisible binding cords that come with marriage- those expectations that we are all supposed to bend to. And if you don't- LOOK OUT! Depending of course on how traditional etc your spouse is. But even the most liberal, open-minded husband/wife sees their partner as an extension of themselves and so tries to control/train/bend their partner into more acceptable forms.


Edit:

Damn, now I'm on the topic. OK, so here are two things I hear re: wondrous marriage
1. It's great cause it's an other-centred institution in a self-centred world. that's all fine and dandy when you're looking out for them and they're looking out for you. Problem is, it can get so that you're looking out for them, and they're looking out for them. OOps, who's taking care of your needs? Right.... try that line about "other-centredness" when you're looking down the barrel of a lifetime of unsatisfied needs
2. commitment is great, holds you through the tough times. Thing is, if you think about it, commitment is holding someone when they don't want to be there, or else no would think "Wow, they're really committed" when a person was going through hell and stuck it out. So why, if you loved someone, would you want them to be stuck in a place they didn't want to be? (Even if that place was with you?) Why would they want YOU stuck in a bad place if they loved you?

[DanteFalling]

I married a little over 8 years ago and I believe love is a choice. Focus on being the right person rather than finding the right person. The right person will come along, but in the meantime focus on who you are and what you can bring to the marriage. There is no such thing as perfection, and I would wager that those men you spoke to need to think about their marriage expectations and focus on pleasing their spouses before waiting to be pleased. Marriage is not easy, but it is worth it. I am continually challenged and stretched by my spouse and I know I am a better man for it. I agree with what Monte wrote, and remember it takes two to tango. Take responsibility for your actions and take care not to blame others for your situation when times are difficult. They will come, but it is how you get through it that matters.
Oh, and along with what Kymbirleigh wrote, I knew my wife as good friends for about 4 years before we married.


Thank you. I hope to have a relationship like that one day.

[Maja]

OK, so here are two things I hear re: wondrous marriage
1. It's great cause it's an other-centred institution in a self-centred world. that's all fine and dandy when you're looking out for them and they're looking out for you. Problem is, it can get so that you're looking out for them, and they're looking out for them. OOps, who's taking care of your needs? Right.... try that line about "other-centredness" when you're looking down the barrel of a lifetime of unsatisfied needs
2. commitment is great, holds you through the tough times. Thing is, if you think about it, commitment is holding someone when they don't want to be there, or else no would think "Wow, they're really committed" when a person was going through hell and stuck it out. So why, if you loved someone, would you want them to be stuck in a place they didn't want to be? (Even if that place was with you?) Why would they want YOU stuck in a bad place if they loved you?

re: 1. Maybe it does circulate around getting along with others, but, that alone isn't what makes it a wondrous thing or not. If you ever want children you're going to have to learn not to worry about how much of yourself you're passing around. If you don't want children, then you probably wouldn't care if you got married or not. The Self and how much attention you give to others isn't limited. You always have some left for the Self unless you can't regulate your own actions, thought, and desires, and that's a personal issue. You can't expect other people to take care of your needs. If you have a lifetime of unsatisfied needs, it's likely the problem was more than just being married to an oblivious person.

re: 2. It depends on where you live. It's easy for an American to break it off. Maybe unpleasant, or a bother, but all they have to do is walk out the door. Most contemporary couples who go through a tough episode and get over it get over it because they love each other and know life isn't always perfect, not because they feel they have no choice. They stay together because they want to for some reason. The fact that it IS so easy to leave is what makes people admire those who try to stay together in the face of hardship, not that they are dampening their own desires. The unsatisfied party can do whatever they want. If you marry someone and feel trapped by their pure existence, that's a problem that goes beyond marriage. If they control you in such a way that you are afraid to leave, that's not commitment, that's possibly abuse. Commitment is about love. You can be committed to anything you love. You can be committed to a jelly doughnut.

You're overlooking the many, many posts that are saying that sure, marriage is great...but when you make a good match. It sounds like you're saying marriage is bad if you're in a bad match. Well sure. The right person wouldn't control you or leave you with a life unfulfilled. And you would like taking care of their needs. The marriage itself, the growth of your friendship, the other person themselves would be part of your life fulfillment.

[Rho1334]

Thank you. I hope to have a relationship like that one day.

Sound iddylic doesn't it? Too perfect really. But I too wish to have a relationship like that.

[Sequoia]

Look through this thread, Visum isn't the only one in such a relationship; he did give a good road map on how you can recognise one though.

[Pcell]

I haven't been married but I've had a long term relationship that lasted several years. One thing I can recommend is to wait a few years before you would even consider marriage. Get to know the person as a lover, a friend, a teammate. Live with the person to see if you could share living quarters. Go through experiences that test your relationship..and then some. Only then you may be able to really decide if that person is for you.

But this doesn't always work. Even after being with that person for several years, in the end he showed me what he was really like and the relationship quickly dissolved. Sometimes you never know how people are until its really late in the game. His family was begging for us to get married and have babies by that point.

That's also another point; never marry someone due to outside pressures..a lot of times they don't work out. Make sure it's what you truly want.

Can you be with that person as you age and you lose your looks, can you take care of them if they become ill, can you weather good and bad times...these are all things you should ask yourself.

[MaineJohn]

If you marry the right person it's amazing...the wrong person and it's terrible.

Exactly. And I'll add: I could never, ever have known what married life was going to be like until I took the leap. In my case, glad I did. I did 25 years ago.

[Henry]

Marriage is an ordeal in which both parties have to overcome:
1. Placing the self over the relationship.
2. The fading of anima/animus projections and actually dealing with who the person actually is.

The thing is that if for some reason one party doesn't overcome either, then you have a divorce. And in a divorce, the man usually gets fucked in the settlement. So that's strike one.

With a never ending supply of 18-25 year olds available, most more than willing to fill any emotional or physical need that a man may have in exchange for a bit of status, there's little reason for a man to settle down unless he really wants a family life. So there's a great deal of opportunity cost for any reasonably attractive, solvent man in getting married.

Strike three is that the vast majority of western women engage in an ever-increasing amount of the "You wanted to see movie X, I wanted to see movie Y, we saw movie X, therefore you are a paternalistic asshole" routine that I simply have no patience for. They almost universally suppress it for a few months until men are emotionally attached, and then pour it on thick, at which point I walk.

Unless someone comes along that radically shakes up my idea of what marriage actually is, I am avoiding it like the plague, and I'd advise any man not dead-set on having a family to avoid it as well.

[Rho1334]

You forgot about the I want movie x, you want movie y...it's x or no sex.

[PortInStorm]

Maja:

Yes, I'm saying that with the wrong person marriage can be bad, but what I'm also saying is that a person can start out the right person and turn into the wrong one. Via you changing, or them changing. I don't care if you've lived with them or been married to them for 1 year or 20, they (or you) can still turn.

As to others fulfilling your needs, I don't think I'm the only one looking to marriage to enhance my life, or no one would do it. I'm not saying that I'm looking for another person to completel me etc etc- I'm a very independant person who gets what she needs. What I am saying is if all the advantages are going one way in a marriage ie to the other person, and it's not benefitting you, it sucks.

Edit: and please, don't assume that any or all of these things describe my own marriage. I've seen many, many marriages, as we all have, and these are some of the issues I've noted.

[Storm]

"You wanted to see movie X, I wanted to see movie Y, we saw movie X, therefore you are a paternalistic asshole" routine that I simply have no patience for.

You forgot about the I want movie x, you want movie y...it's x or no sex.

Of course, the ideal solution would be for you to see Movie Z, that is a movie which has aspects of both X and Y that both of you would agree upon.

Some people claim that there is no movie Z, however simple logic tells us that movie Z necessarily exist. Let me explain
1. Movie Z, being a movie that both you and your loved one wants to see, is the greatest possible movie.
2. A movie which exist is greater than a movie that doesn't exist.
3. Therefore, Movie Z exist.

[Harmony]

Yes, I'm saying that with the wrong person marriage can be bad, but what I'm also saying is that a person can start out the right person and turn into the wrong one. Via you changing, or them changing. I don't care if you've lived with them or been married to them for 1 year or 20, they (or you) can still turn.

Yes! This is exactly what happened to me. Or perhaps, he just hid the bad qualities for long enough and then waited until after we were married to reveal them...

[LPM]

I'm confused as to why you are recommending marriage? Could you elaborate on the good aspects for me?

Yeah my post might not have sounded too positive. But I do believe highly in marriage. The joys and rewards in life are in relationships. I don't think anything can top a long lasting, intimate marriage and kids.

[Storm]

Yeah my post might not have sounded too positive. But I do believe highly in marriage. The joys and rewards in life are in relationships. I don't think anything can top a long lasting, intimate marriage and kids.

But why? I'm not disbelieving you, I'm just really interested in your answer. Your initial post went into a lot detail about how hard it is, so I was expecting the same level of detail about how great it is.

[LPM]

But why? I'm not disbelieving you, I'm just really interested in your answer. Your initial post went into a lot detail about how hard it is, so I was expecting the same level of detail about how great it is.


I agree with bethanygym's list.

Ok married life:
*Wake up next to the love of your life every day
*Work on interesting problems that require creative solutions (and compromise) (constantly learning things about your partner and new ways to communicate and make things work!)
*Usually have someone to hang out with, cuddle with, and be intimate with
*Get to know someone very deeply over a long period of time, and share your life with them.
*Change and Grow with this person and feel accepted and loved by them.
*Experience many of life's various stages with your best friend.

Also I would add an equally meaningful list of the joy that children bring that come out of the partnership of marriage.

[Maja]

Maja:

Yes, I'm saying that with the wrong person marriage can be bad, but what I'm also saying is that a person can start out the right person and turn into the wrong one. Via you changing, or them changing. I don't care if you've lived with them or been married to them for 1 year or 20, they (or you) can still turn.

As to others fulfilling your needs, I don't think I'm the only one looking to marriage to enhance my life, or no one would do it. I'm not saying that I'm looking for another person to completel me etc etc- I'm a very independant person who gets what she needs. What I am saying is if all the advantages are going one way in a marriage ie to the other person, and it's not benefitting you, it sucks.

Edit: and please, don't assume that any or all of these things describe my own marriage. I've seen many, many marriages, as we all have, and these are some of the issues I've noted.

It would suck, I just have a problem imagining that situation in a circumstance that wasn't abusive. It might be due to a different way in which I few interpersonal relations, but, I've never seen a personal relationship of any sort (friendship, etc...) that was black and white, unless the person getting nothing from it allowed themselves to be dissatisfied. In an ironic way, that means they were satisfying what they wanted, which was letting themselves be dissatisfied. That said, I can't imagine a completely back and white scenario like that in a contemporary, otherwise average relationship.

Looking toward marriage to satisfy one's needs...of course. Certainly. From my perspective (and YMMV, this is simply mine), it's worth considering that you can marry anyone you like. Also, the objective needs that marriage satisfies I could get from anyone I like. I could remain unmarried, have a roommate I like, have sexual relationships with anyone I wanted, have children whenever I wanted with whomever I wanted. I don't need to get married or have only one person satisfy those objectives or dynamics. Choosing to do so, therefore, is totally up to me, and what I make of it is therefore up to me. To me, choosing your own partner and how you partner is the utmost expression of freedom modern life has to offer. No matter who the other forces in your life, a monogamous partnership is part of you in a way that others will never be, and you are allowing it. If you control your married life and not outside forces, you're totally free to pursue whatever kind of a personal life you want, no matter what they have to say. Because we're so used to other people seeking to control what we do in life I think it's difficult to make real use of this freedom while still being responsible, but, the opportunity is there.

In a way this brushes the posts about how it's not just the wrong person but making yourself the right person. I don't know if I (YMMV) believe people really change. Their behavior under a circumstance might change but what's changed is the circumstance, not their inner core. They might chose to relate to things from a different angle as time goes on but they're still pivoting from the same place. There are many times in the past when I've thought, "My husband's not at all the person I thought I married!" But I was always angry over something and choosing not to recognize that there were certain traits I was purposefully blind to before, or things being said now I wasn't hearing, or current circumstances I wasn't considering because they weren't readily apparent or important to myself.

...Part of what I've gotten out of marriage,then, is a greater ability to see all this going on and maneuver through it in a more practiced way. It's the only place this "practice" exists. Of course, observing and understanding behavior is my thing. Another person might not find that benefit as appealing. That said, this ability enhances all of your other relationships, even the one you have with yourself. The ability can never be perfected. It can always be enhanced. This is sort of what I was getting at with my earlier post about the special social benefits of a marriage. Technically, it didn't matter who I married to get at those but it certainly made it easier that they spoke in a language that made the obstacles more clear.

[music221]

Married life can be like a roller coaster ride at times, but for the most part it is smooth if you learn to compromise and work together to make it work. Every marriage will have its issues and at times you will want to pull your hair out, but anything worthwhile takes work. It absolutely takes two people to make it work though. Both individuals have to work together or it will inevitably fail.

[Rho1334]

Married life can be like a roller coaster ride at times, but for the most part it is smooth if you learn to compromise and work together to make it work. Every marriage will have its issues and at times you will want to pull your hair out, but anything worthwhile takes work. It absolutely takes two people to make it work though. Both individuals have to work together or it will inevitably fail.

And that is why the divorce rate is so high. you generally always have no partner who keep working and one that just gave up. The one that gave up generally is the one who files for divorce but not always. People don't work together anymore...people are just to damn cynical these days that they can't even let thier spouses in. Its the relationships that the spouses are open with eachother, share everything and ride the coaster together that make it.

[Jinxu]

Here is a story of a marriage gone bad:

Hello. I don't normally go to places like this but I am so lost and don't know where to turn. My wife of 14 years has recently told me that she loves me but is not in love with me. Our life is in upheaval. We are currently building a new house and living with her mom during the construction process. I did not want to go there but she insisted. We never fight. (maybe 3-4 times in 16 years of knowing each other) Now, since we have been in limbo for 6+ months my wife says that she is indifferent and needs a break. We have 4 children ranging from 7 to 19 and I don't know what to do. She wants me to leave but I do not want to leave my kids. My attitude is that I love my family and she is the one who is having issues.... therefore she should leave even though it is her mothers house. I do not want separation. I love my wife and family to pieces. I have tried to get her to move to a rental house but she refuses. She won't go to counselling. We are very successful people in the business world. What to do??? Today is d-day....

28th March 2009


Note: The phrase in bold is not too uncommon a subject that pops up in these type of marriages.

As usual. Any Thoughts?

[Rho1334]

he should leave and try and get custody. She doesn't want to be there and no matter how many times he argues it will never get through. She will stubbornly stand her ground becuase thats what the person that gives up does. "She loves me but is not in love with me." is a bullshit answer given to people when thier significant other had gotten bored, went psycho selfish and decided they want out. She gave up but doen't have the balls to fill for divorce. More than likely she found someone and doesn't want to admit that she's been bangin' someone else trhe entire time.

[F6M13]

It's too late for me to do anything about my situation now, married for 5 years now with 2 children brought into this world, but if i could only have the chance to do it over again, i wouldn't consider marriage a second time, the dumbass that i am.

I guess being an INTJ always has me yearning to be alone again, and having friends with benefits, but that contradicts what being an INTJ is all about. I don't want any friends. Maybe just an occasional companion would be nice.

The loneliness of life just made me settle for something i really didn't want. Life sucks.

[dalidaisy]

The loneliness of life just made me settle for something i really didn't want. Life sucks.

I've been there, I understand & I'm sorry for you. I finally decided I didn't want to settle anymore, nor did I want someone to be with me because I settled. Leaving was one of the hardest, but most liberating things I've ever done (after 7 years of marriage). It was so worth it. Yea, now I'm a single mom with 2 kids, but I'm happy about it. It is so much better than the misery of my marriage. I wish you luck...

[F6M13]

Thanks. I can't help but thinking back and saying to myself "what the hell was i thinking?" Marriage really isn't for me, and while i love my kids, i never wanted the responsibility of taking care of them. I know it might sound harsh, but i will tell you the truth. But i know that because of my character, that i'll be in it for the long haul, like it or not, only because of my son and daughter.

[lancelot]

I know that marriage is a broad subject with a lot of topics that can be discussed. But I keep hearing more and more from older men that marriage life is not all that great. "It's sucks" and "Don't ever do it" are some of the comments.

I want to ask the older members here two (or four) basic questions:

What is marriage life like? Is it good or bad?

Would you recommend getting married to the younger generation? Why or why not?

Marriage takes a lot of maturity, some people mature faster than others. For someone who is mature, appreciative, and realizes what you see in the media is a fantasy, marriage should be a good thing.

[Jinxu]

Marriage takes a lot of maturity, some people mature faster than others. For people who are mature, appreciative, and realize what you see in the media is a fantasy, marriage should be a good thing.

What if one party is mature and the other party isn't? Can the mature party somehow force the immature party to mature?

[lancelot]

What if one party is mature and the other party isn't? Can you somehow manipulate the immature party to mature?

That's a tough one, maybe marriage counseling would be a good idea. Sometimes it takes an outsider to help someone realize their responsibilities.

[Rho1334]

What if one party is mature and the other party isn't? Can the mature party somehow force the immature party to mature?

No, they can't. Even marraige counseling is worthless in this case. If you party isn't mature enough to see that his or her marriage is failing then fail it will. Going to marriage counseling show a certain level of maturity on account of both parties. But if one party is completely immature, then the marriage is doomed to fail.