Zeitgeist - Religion, 9/11, and the Federal Reserve

[AJ]

My brother sent me the link to this movie several days ago, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
While I am hesitant towards movies that discuss conspiracy theories, it was an interesting film. But part of it is bogus even if it has sources, but worth the watch anyways. I was wondering what everyone else here thinks of the movie if you have time to watch it. Some of it most would be familiar, Jesus birthday being a pagan holiday the U.S. money being fiat money and so forth.

[Drayakir]

Buh.

I hate that movie. I mean, I don't care for the religious bent, but the conspiracy thing is SO annoying, and SO last year. I mean, they've been debunked several times, and yet people persist.

That's why I can't stand anarchists. They still bleat on about how JFK, WTC, and Bay of Pigs was an "inside job."

[NoahAddle]

I found the movie interesting and have recommended it to friends, if only because it brings up the kind of questions that can cause people to jump outside their own tunnelled perspectives and get them to think about why things are the way they are. Most people could stand to benefit from more of that kind of thing.

[edalz]

It was okay... I really didn't care for the trippy part in the beginning. The pagan holiday thing was very familiar. I don't have a problem with fiat money or The Fed.

[AJ]

Drayakir,
Do you have links to the arguments against Zeitgeist. I would be interested in reading them, better than getting a one-sided story which the movie does.

I agree with you Noah, it provides a new way of thinking about the current situation. But best not to take everything to be true.


What bothered me in the movie were the 9/11 conspiracy theories, some of the situations may have been the result of something else other than an airplane; WTC collapsing and probably the pentagon as I still question the damage the Boeing 757 caused there. However when they mentioned Flight 93 crash in Shanksville they went to far, the black box was found and voices confirmed if I am not mistaken? Also you could tell the movie makers just wanted to throw it in there, they mentioned it and were in the next section of the movie in seconds. It would have been best to not even mention Shanksville as a 'conspiracy' theory.

[Umbrex]

That's why I can't stand anarchists. They still bleat on about how JFK, WTC, and Bay of Pigs was an "inside job."

Why is one an anarchist for raising questions which attends to obvious flaws in the official story?

I mean, WTC 1 & 2 went down in free fall speed, where most of the material was pulverized to dust, where the dust clouds couldn't have been the way they were without explosive energy.
Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK from the back, even though the videos clearly shows him being hit from the front, after JFK just fired the 3 most prominent members of the CIA after they arranged the bay of pigs without the consent of JFK (which also addresses the 3rd part).

See the blatant inconsistencies ?
If not then i'm suggesting that you are in denial. 9/11 was a shift in paradigm, realizing the truth about what went on would be like forcing another and much more horrendous paradigm over your own head, which the fewest would venture into voluntarily. Sure, there are lots of conspiracy stuff out there which doesn't get it 100% correct. Sad part is how debunking 3% of the content can make the other 97% seem invalid.

I found out something wasn't right in the world, so i took 2 years out of my life to examine how, what and why - and believe me - there is a conspiracy. Believe me ?

I knew u wouldnt, but how about three of your presidents ?

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JFK

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Dwight Eisenhower

A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ... [W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men. - Woodrow Wilson, US president after signing the federal reserve act.

So last year ?

[chocky]

Umbrex, you've presented a sound argument for an objective assessment of the information presented in the movie.

I've noticed a trend on other forums for immature, irrational, and/or emotional reactions when the word 'conspiracy' is used. When our psyches react with unreasoned thought to something, one has to ask what subconscious buttons are being pushed.

I would have to agree with you, that for many people it is simply too much effort to overthrow embedded psychological paradigms before one can even begin to assess information from a center of neutrality - that to ask certain questions leads to asking other questions that are simply too big for us to comprehend, and the answers potentially too hard to digest. Not everyone wants to walk that path.

Personally I never shy from asking questions (even if they are mostly asked within my own mind) and I am quite prepared to accept the world may not be the way I imagine it to be, so any and all possibilities are simply grist for the mill. (Fascinating, delectable grist!)

If you have an open, curious mind, watch the movie and make your own conclusions.

[gzeus]

Umbrex and chocky - extremely well reasoned responses.

INTJs are supposed to use reason and logical deduction to come to conclusions. This involves looking at the available evidence (not listen to words) - photographic, video...

there is no denying the buildings came down in freefall manner, pulverised to fine dust. You can even see streams of dust shattering the windows and bursting tens of meters out of them 10-15 stories BELOW the collapsing structures. It is true by my research (checking the claims that no other steel structure high building has ever collapsed like this due to fire) that this is the first time this sort of thing happened anywhere.

All the other things (remote control planes, pods, missiles etc.) are pure speculation based on what I have looked at. WTC 7 was demolished on purpose and the leaseholder admitted it here: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Pulling is a demolition term for controlled demolition. It was established that it is impossible to demolish a building in this fashion without at least a number of days of preparation and setting the explosives. He implies they pulled it in a matter of hours? Strange indeed...

Why did they do this when there was only a moderate fire in the building? I have no answer to this one.

There are a lot of unanswered questions that any thinking person can come to. The commission did not answer these particular questions in a logically satisfactory manner as of yet. Also it would not be so "last year" if one of your loved ones died in this event, now would it?

[PhoenixRising]

Very interesting movie indeed. I had just seen the link to it and watched it in the last several days and had thought about posting the link in here myself to get different takes on it. Do I necessarily believe it? Perhaps not every detail, but many of the subjects it covers I have had similar thoughts (and fears) about before watching from 911 to the war on terror to all of the big brother technology and North American alliance. It's all very sobering, add in the slow disarming of the population and a pill for everything / legalized drug pushing with the executive branch of the government (US at least) becoming more and more omnipotent and I don't see a very positive future for free thinking, with no recourse when the government gets too big for it's britches. Freedom is inherantly dangerous, but the alternative is going back to a slave state, which is just if not more dangerous it only changes where the danger lies. Definitely thought provoking and recommended viewing though, even if only to provoke thought.

[Younggun88]

a lot of it i am very skeptical of but the ID card is one thing that i am really scared about. with the Social Security scam failing the government will have to find a new nation identification process. And with technology the way it is today freedom could be given away.

[1OFMANY]

I mean, WTC 1 & 2 went down in free fall speed, where most of the material was pulverized to dust, where the dust clouds couldn't have been the way they were without explosive energy.

thats untrue.

Heres an example, I was about 400-500 meters away from a 2000 pound JDAM dropped in the middle of a city in Iraq. the dust cloud was frikkin awesome( possibly the biggest shock wave I have ever felt, and I have felt a few small ones about 20 feet away( IEDs)
Anyways...a few moments later a neighboring building fell because it was structurally damaged in the blast. Its dust cloud floated around for ever it seemed, no explosion. And that is just a TINTY TINY example.

Unless.....:stunned:

Someone PLANTED a charge to drop that piece of shit 3 story house filled with insurrgents !! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Aoiluna]

Im usually not the first to go for conspiracies, but i enjoyed the religion part and the reference to pagans. Some of my friends believe every conspiracy they read or hear about, especially if it involves the government. This gets extremely annoying sometimes. The part about the chip did kind of get to me, because a lack of privacy bothers me.

[Umbrex]

thats untrue.


watch the videos please...

[Marmalade]

I don't care too much about the conspiracy parts, but the religious stuff fascinates me. I've discussed this kind of thing before and most people already have their minds made up about it one way or another.

The info from the film was partly based on the work of Acharya S.(aka D.M. Murdock). She has written 3 books about Christianity and Astrotheology. If you'd like to learn more about her ideas, then here are some links where you can find more info about it:

At the main page of her website, you can find many articles about Christianity:
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She just finished a companion guide to the Zeitgeist that is available now:
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Here is the section in her forum about Zeitgeist:
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If you have any questions, doubts, or criticisms, then you can find Acharya's responses here:
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Very long threads about Zeitgeist and Acharya can be found at the IIDB forums and the Richard Dawkins forums. I'm sure you could find some lively threads about it on Christian forums, but the atheists get pretty lively too. You'd be surprised by how many atheists are critical of astrotheology.

Her viewpoint is Astrotheological, but its not really any different than the comparative mythological views of Jung or Campbell. I believe there are similar discussions about alternative interpretations of Christianity on two forums I belong to(JCF and Kaleidoscope).

If you're really interested or if Acharya's opinions are too strongly stated for your taste, then I'd recommend checking out the websites of Earl Doherty and Robert M. Price. They have similar ideas to Acharya, and both partially interpret the New Testament according to the Docetist(non-physical savior) theology of Gnosticism. Earl Doherty has tons of writings on his site, but Robert M. Price is the more mainstream of these three theorists. Price was a member of the Jesus Seminar and now is a member of the Jesus Project. Also, Price just came out with a translation of all known pre-Nicene Christian texts which I've been reading lately.

[TDK442]

First off, hello... finally was enlightened to the MBTI thing, and have delved into the literature... the first time I read my INTJ type description I almost fell out of my chair... finally someone understood me!

"when the doors of perception are cleansed, everything will appear as it truly is, infinite (or just corrupt)"

At any rate, no offense, and I dont remember who is responsible for that early post, with the typical mainstream garbage... the "so last year" thing, and the "conspiracy" thing, and the "that has already be debunked" thing..

first off: Huh? Really, when was the 9/11 conspiracy thing proven wrong? Please pass that evidence on to me. I know that I have missed the last four years of Dennis Miller, Bill O'Reilly, and Sean Hannity, but maybe you can fill me in and explain exactly what was disproven about the very "rational" 9/11 conspiracy theory... Isnt this a board for "rationals?" I sure as hell know that the official government horseshit story is just as IRRational as was the Warren Commission re:irked:port..

Maybe you are one of those Dennis Miller "rationals." You know, the intuitive thinker one minute, and the evangelical neo-con the next...

Perhaps someone who is not willing, or, more likely, has the propensity to have their world turned upside down by the suggestion of dirty dealings by our government does not truly classify as an INTJ or rational? Perhaps you would be more comfortable over on the ESFJ board, where you can get all your news from Fox and the Roman Catholic church...

And I am so freakin sick of this "conspiracy" thing. I am so sick of mainstream idiots turning "conspiracy" and "liberal" into slanderous words...

They have effectively created a society where 80% of the citizens have no idea what conspiracy or liberal even mean... all they do know is that people who talk about such things should be marginalized, locked up, and waterboarded...





TDK442 added to this post, 13 minutes and 37 seconds later...

I was just pumped about this group, and the ability to read rational thoughts by rational people.... people who just see right through our faux democracy, bullshit government, and hypocritical religions.... the type of people who are like me... the INTJ's who just look at something and say:

"BULLSHIT!!"

They say, THAT is bullshit, and I dont care what the other six billion people in the world think... dont care what the president says, or what the church says, or what their parents told them when they were in 5th grade... cause bullshit is bullshit...

so, I am rambling, but my point was, to finally get on this board and to read people actually continuing to marginalize the quack "conspiracy" theorists... I think is is just obscene... really...

to a truly rational mind there is no such thing as marginalizing a conspiracy theorist...

true rational minds understand that absolute power corrupts, and that money corrupts, and that money and power run our government. Truly rational minds understand that America has been dirty for 150 years, killing hundreds of thousands... millions of people in the process... overthrowing dictators, imperialism, internment of their own citizens, human experimentation... and yeah... you think that killing 3,000 people in the WTC is not a feasible "entrance strategy" into the middle east?

Did you ever read the Wolfowitz/Rumfeld/Cheney piece? The Project for the New American Century? Where in 1997 the the Bush brass simply laid out exactly what they were going to do and how they were going to proceed once "taking" office?

And then, poof.... 8 1/2 months after taking over.... "oh my goodness," a new Pearl Harbor.... how ironic and what a fantastic opportunity this gives us for Mid-East dominance...

I know that I am being an irrational conspiracy theorist and diabolical liberal now, so I will stop....





TDK442 added to this post, 898 minutes and 21 seconds later...

rationals, NT's, they are in fact "marginalized" already...

can someone who lives on the margin of society actually marginalize someone else or some other group? Can they marginalize conspiracy theorists?

Really, a serious question... this is a group of people who already function on the margin of society... we are so far from mainstream that it is silly...

[thod]

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[TDK442]

I absolutely loved it. It just kept reminding me of a great quote I once heard.

Paul McCartney went to some small English pub in the mid-60's to see, for the first time, this young phenom who he had heard about... a buzz, if you will... After watching Jimmi Hendrix for the first time, McCartney said, and I quote only from memory:

"He freaked me out and turned me on. The next day I went out and bought an electric guitar and wrote Taxman."

Well, the 10% to 20% of the world population who are actually capable of understanding this video... the people who have the intellectual facilities, the ability be emotionally and intellectually turned upside down... the people who have real confidence in their own intellect..

at the very least, those 10%-20% of people need to watch this video with an open mind and start figuring out what is at play in this world. The Noam Chomsky's of the world need the full support of at least that 10%-20%...

Perhaps if the actual intellectual elites could somehow take leadership away from the financial elite, then we could start turning things around..

90% of the people are going to mindlessly follow the leader... unfortunately, however, they are mindlessly following the 99.9 percentile of income owners, as opposed to the 99.9 percentile of intellectual thought...

the actual "rationals" of the world need to get on board and take this MF'er back!

[Cookabara]

The doco is alright. Didn't quite see the link between Part 1 and the rest. Am I missing something?

What I am having problem with is the idea that an Education system subsidized by the government is necessarily corrupt. "What the government pays for it gets". The charts in support of this argument show countries which score higher in Maths and Physics than USA. But these countries have governmental support for their education as well?!? They could as well cite "If you want to be rich and happy, don't go to school". Well, that is brainwashing crap. Do private schools tell "the truth"?

While on the education topic, my son told me today that they don't teach geometry in high school any more because of safety reasons; three students got injured with compasses. As Giordano Bruno said santa simplicita (holly stupidity)!!!

[AgentofGaming]

I see the documentary as trying to describe the ways we have been manipulated.
Part1 starts with religion to tell us that Christianity (a religion or a tool of manipulation) is no different than any other religion (tool) and that it has been used before over and over to get us to dedicate ourselves to submission. It gets at the basis of religion, why some of the facts align.

As for the school issue I think they want to say that the government is already under control of the bank and they (the government) now wants to keep the citizenry subdued education-wise.

I kind of think it's weird that the US central bank is a private organization. In Canada the central bank is a crown corporation. I'm not sure a government in debt to a private bank is a good thing.

Anyone notice how most of the first world countries are in debt? A debt so huge that it can never be repaid? or how all politicians need money to finance themselves? or how powerful the media and banks have become? It feels like a corporate takeover of government.

[Cookabara]

I'm not sure a government in debt to a private bank is a good thing.

Anyone notice how most of the first world countries are in debt? A debt so huge that it can never be repaid? or how all politicians need money to finance themselves? or how powerful the media and banks have become? It feels like a corporate takeover of government.

Don't know about good or bad, but shows who reports to whom.
The Eastern block tumbled in 1989 because of the major banks, not for any political reasons. The East European governments were enjoying the excess cash generated by the economy stagnation that followed the energy crisis in the 70's. When the financial monsters pulled the plug, bankruptcy was the only possible reaction.

Wonder how the US sub-prime mortgage crisis will pan out.

[TDK442]

and I am paraphrasing here, but, the point of part one was something like this:

"organized religion lays the fertile soil of lies and manipulation that all other lies are built off of. Those who understand the myth of religion, and then manipulate the sheep towards their own corrupt ends are the most dangerous people in the world."

so after exposing the myth and lies that are religion, and talking about how the groundwork of mythology is laid, how the people are completely willing to follow complete garbage, then they get into all of the other corruption that is perpetrated by the elite...

but make no mistake, religion is the groundwork for all of the bullshit that we see... when people are willing to follow blindly, and trained to follow blindly, then it doesnt matter whether it is:

Jesus Christ
Nelson Rockefeller
Adolf Hitler
David Koresh
George Bush
The Central Bank

etc., etc., etc.....

ERADICATE religion and "blind faith to authority" and we have a hell of a start..

[INTJayW]

I completely agree with TDK442, except for one point, which I will come back to.

First of all being a rational, defined as: 'Capable of Reasoning', I know that an irrational is incapable of reasoning. (Those who let emotion cloud their reasoning.)

Further: Conspiracy's are quite common and mainstream defined as "Those who plan a crime together".

We all conspire at some time against some one. Sometimes it’s our brothers and sisters, sometimes it’s our teachers or bosses and sometimes some of us conspire against the government, its called Tax evasion.

So I would say that those who would make the blanket statement that conspiracy's are for quaks are in point of fact 'irrationals' and in capable of reasoning.

Finally, no one here can deny that 'people in governments', not 'governments' conspire to use the bureaucratic apparatus in a criminal way for personal gain.

It's called Corruption and it happens all over the world every day. In some countries like India it is quite mainstream.

The point that I do not agree with is that 'governments' or institutions are at fault when we all know that we the people put these criminals in power, and we are at fault for not removing them.

[E148]

The doco is alright. Didn't quite see the link between Part 1 and the rest. Am I missing something?

What I am having problem with is the idea that an Education system subsidized by the government is necessarily corrupt. "What the government pays for it gets". The charts in support of this argument show countries which score higher in Maths and Physics than USA. But these countries have governmental support for their education as well?!? They could as well cite "If you want to be rich and happy, don't go to school". Well, that is brainwashing crap. Do private schools tell "the truth"?

While on the education topic, my son told me today that they don't teach geometry in high school any more because of safety reasons; three students got injured with compasses. As Giordano Bruno said santa simplicita (holly stupidity)!!!

I had seen this before but I watched again before responding here.

Point 1, has been answered here already. Just wanted to add that I agree and believe that religion has been responsible for many, if not, all wars, years before I saw Zeitgeist.

Point 2, I think the documentary was targeting US government as being incompetent in (all matters, including) education. The US government cannot administer anything. So far as other countries and government subsidizing education, do they want to control as much as the US government does? I do not know.

There are those who say that it is not so much that the US students have fallen it is more that the a lot of the world has risen/improved.
Well, yeah. The point is we are rather low in the polls-- did not maintain our rank. So, I would disagree with them.


Point 3, what happened? Did they stick their hands or sit on the compasses?

[gogurtdynasty]

I'm skeptical about many facts listed in the movie but as a whole i really enjoyed it especially the beginning

[AgentofGaming]

If any of you watched Part III,
It seems kind of weird that the fed is giving money to JP Morgan to buy out Bear Stearns.
That's some pretty blunt interventionism.

[Agile]

Yep, AoG, completely weird. The Fed is privately owned, but has governmental power? Is taking over regulatory oversight from the SEC? Is stepping in to 'rescue troubled companies' in this subprime 'crisis' which was started by the 1% interest rates which were basically set by the Fed? Yes, this is ridiculous. And if the average person knew that the Fed is as private as Microsoft, people would be outraged (even more so than they already are).

[Claptonian]

Very convincing documentary, which is impressive considering 99.99% of it is total bullshit, including the section on religion.

For the record, I am a devoutly anti-government, anti-religion anarchist/atheist.