Music, or Lyrics?

[INTJoe]

I have a very preliminary theory that N's may appreciate instumental music more than S's, and S's might appreciate singing and lyrics more than a typical N.

As a strong N (88), I often hear a song many times over and not pay attention to the lyrics, as in most cases, I find them very arbitrary. I love to get lost in the music and try to separate the bass, the drums, and the guitar.

My gf is a stong S (also 88), and she finds it difficult to understand or compartmentalize the musical instruments. She likes songs because of the lyrics.

So, with this insanely small sample size, is there any validity to my theory that N's get lost in the music, and don't notice the words, and S's take the words to heart, and allow the music to provide ambience?

Yay? Nay?

Chime in. Which do you prefer, and how stong is your N or S function.

Thanks,
INTJoe

[brewmaster]

Strong N

I am the same as you in that I like to separate the instruments. Moreover, I nearly cannot hear/understand the lyrics (understand in the definition of its inaudible).

So add me as data to your theory. I simply don't pay attention to lyrics at all. After all, I am a Dead fan, and to get something out of those lyrics you need to be on something (gross generalization)

[The Many]

I'm 100% N, and I definitely love getting lost in the music. I often enjoy listening to classical music (symphonies and such) since there are no irritating vocals in the way. On the other hand, I'm a (part-time) lyricist/poet so lyrics DO matter a lot for me too when they are there. They need to be good for me to be able to appreciate a song. Or at least not something I disagree with too much if they are political or something like that.

I have a theory though, in that NTs enjoy listening to the patterns and structure of a song, whilst the other types probably rather enjoy listening to the emotions in it and how it makes them feel. Of course, this goes to some extent for NTs too, but at least I often ignore the lyrics and will only listen to the structure - this goes especially for extreme metal where it's quite hard to hear the lyrics anyway.

[stasis]

The lyrics that I am familiar with are almost always hilariously terrible. It is for this reason I tend to prefer them either in a language that I do not understand, or somehow obscured within the music such that I can regard the vocals as a tonal instrument only.

But then, to contrast with lyrics, I have to submit that poetry does nothing for me either. And also: I can't say that I usually listen to music for "complexity," and nor do I tend to listen to it for an emotion intended by the composer. My primary interest tends to be in the 'abstracted spatiality' of the sound. Or something.

Oh, and 'strong N'.

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm a strong N (88) and have found myself, especially as of late, getting lost in the music more so than the lyrics. I've also begun to develop an appreciation for compartmentalizing the guitar vs. the bass vs. the drums and listening for little things like a cymbal crash.

[Danisty]

I guess I'm the odd one. I'm a strong N and if a song does not have understandable lyrics, I'm not even going to listen to it. Then those lyrics have to either be very deep or very silly. This does not mean that I don't care about the music or appreciate the patterns and structure in it. I suppose you could just say I'm extremely picky about my music. My favorite bands are The Who and Led Zeppelin.

[Heretic]

I'm a strong 'N', and I'm all about the music. Sometimes I'll figure out lyrics so I can actually sing along instead of just humming, or to see what the song is about to get a better idea about the "mood". A lot of my favorite songs I can barely remember even the chorus, though.

[Theoden]

Yep. Polyphony is clearly an 'N' concept.

[Paul V]

Strong "N", and it depends on the music.

A) Instrumental, classical or non-vocal music: Obviously, lyrics don't matter.

B) Any other music: Lyrics are of the utmost importance. I must approve and tolerate the lyrics, or they just make the song unbearable.

[Tsuru]

The music itself is always the most important to me. The lyrics are more tertiary for me for the most part (unless the artist's main point is the lyrics, such as Weird Al or whatever), so I generally vastly prefer instrumental stuff to songs (ie, classical music, video game/movie/anime music) for that reason I think. I probably have bias in part since I compose instrumental stuff for a hobby as well, but in general I think the main purpose of music is a language to convey feelings and images in a really pure form. Lyrics only seal the deal. They can't accomplish the expression on their own.

I can't stand 95% of modern music since instrumentally it's absolute garbage. You almost never find something as basic and important as melody anymore in the stuff churned out by pop stars and rock bands. Or even unique instrumentation/sound for that matter. Hehe, I'm getting worked up so I think I'll stop now. D: It's one of the few things in the world that genuinely gets under my skin, to have total mediocrity being held up as the peak of modern creative expression, and being subjected to it in every store and restaurant I go to. :(

Songs obviously depend on the lyrics a lot more, but the most brilliant lyrics in the world won't make crappy music good music.

[Charlie Mc.]

I am a strong N as well (mid 80's if I remember right). I care alot about lyrics. The majority of music I listen to is lyric oriented, and my favorite music is that with very good/clever lyrics. I said this in another thread, but I don't see alot of difference between lyrics and poetry. I put alot of effort into improving my spoken communication and certainly appreciate it when others display a high level of skill at it whether it be in poetry rhetoric or lyrics. Generally the only times I relax and enjoy the music is when it is another language, and even then I am likely to look up a translation.

[WavesSootheMe]

I'm a mildly strong N (70ish), and I do tend to focus more on the music than the lyrics, but this does not necessarily lend to preferring pure instrumental music. I still appreciate amazing lyrics. It's more that, in the moment, the music (if it's good) takes over my senses much more so than the lyrics. Good lyrics become part of the music to me. I seem to perceive it all as a musical whole. I couldn't tell you what the lyrics are word for word unless I purposely focused on them and memorized them or I looked them up, but I may be able to pick out and play the general tune. Also, I can appreciate songs with good music but bad lyrics but not good lyrics but bad music - both being great is ideal. Another important note (besides my Nness) is that I've been playing instruments since the age of 5. I started out on the piano and have since studied the clarinet, flute, sax, and guitar. I've also sang in a couple choirs/dance choirs throughout the years. Those experiences at a young age may also play into how I process music.

[rwyatt365]

My preference is towards instrumental music, probably 75-80% of my musical collection is instrumental music of one sort or another.
The lyrics that I am familiar with are almost always hilariously terrible. It is for this reason I tend to prefer them either in a language that I do not understand, or somehow obscured within the music such that I can regard the vocals as a tonal instrument only.
As with stasis, when I do listen to vocals about half the time they are in a language that I don't understand so that the voice become a part of the musical tapestry.
I'm a mildly strong N (70ish), and I do tend to focus more on the music than the lyrics, but this does not necessarily lend to preferring pure instrumental music. I still appreciate amazing lyrics. It's more that, in the moment, the music (if it's good) takes over my senses much more so than the lyrics. Good lyrics become part of the music to me. I seem to perceive it all as a musical whole. I couldn't tell you what the lyrics are word for word unless I purposely focused on them and memorized them or I looked them up, but I may be able to pick out and play the general tune. Also, I can appreciate songs with good music but bad lyrics but not good lyrics but bad music - both is ideal. Another important note (besides my Nness) is that I've been playing instruments since the age of 5. I started out on the piano and have since then studied the clarinet, flute, sax, and guitar. I've also sang in a couple choirs/dance choirs throughout the years. Those experiences at a young age may also play into how I process music.
Waves, to the bolded text, since the lyrics aren't that important to me I too can listen to a song with bad lyrics but strong music. The voice just becomes another instrument.

And just to throw in another data point, my "N" ranges between 50 and 65% - not exceptionally strong.

[logos]

100% N, every test ever...

Both music and lyrics are important to me, but I say music is more important because if the music isn't good, I don't care what they're saying. If the music is good, I'll listen to the lyrics, which must also be good for me to enjoy the song.

When I was a teenager, I liked hard rock, metal & techno music. Now I prefer more calm music. I generally listen to classical music on the radio, but my favorite musicians are Air. They are my heroes. I don't know how they do what they do. If someone asked me to express my soul in the form of music, I would reply "there is no need, it's already been done for me." and hand them a copy of Moon Safari. :P

[Danisty]

I think part of the importance of lyrics to me is that I prefer songs I can sing along with. I don't mind instrumental music (especially jazz), but if a song has lyrics, I need to be able to sing along. If I don't like the words I'm singing, it just pisses me off and I can't enjoy the song.

[Charlie Mc.]

Danisty,
We are on the same page there. Alot of people have said that they have musical backgrounds. I was in band from 5th grade through highschool, but was in Choir for much of that time also. I no longer play any instruments actively (and haven't for probably 10 years), but I still sing quite often. I wonder if it isn't an N function so much as that of musical background?

[radioactivez0r]

I'm borderline N/S, but along the lines of what Tsuru said, with the exception of something like Weird Al or the Aquabats, where a great deal of the point of listening is the lyrics, I almost never care what's being said, so long as it doesn't distract from the music. I also agree with rwyatt - a "good" vocalist in much of the music I listen to lends his tones and pitches to the music, acting as another instrument.

On that note, I always wondered if the lyrics from None So Vile were written after the fact, or if Lord Worm was actually saying those things in his unintelligible gargle.

[INTJoe]

Hey great thread, everybody. I really enjoyed reading everyone's input.

I wouldn't say that anything is conclusive from this thread, but I liked the discussion anyway.

I am reminded of a funny SNL skit which was a commercial selling a bunch of CD's composed of old classical songs like Ode to Joy, etc. where they added lyrics to the songs. The lyrics were really horrible. And at the end of the commercial, the speaker basically said that a spoiled, glue-sniffing brat son of a really rich guy was the one they chose to write the lyrics.

One of the songs was Sprach Zarathustra, and the lyrics added were: "He.....Who.....Smelt it...................Dealt it!" lol. Some songs are best left as-is.

[Hdier]

Extremely overpowering N, little to no S.

I think that the lyrics enhance the music, when a song is done right. In a lot of my favorite songs, I love the rhythms and instruments, but the lyrics are what makes the song awesome (the icing on the cake, if you will). For example, in one of my favorite songs, The Vrondi's Eyes, the lyrics sound really cool and stir up my emotions, but it's the music that carries the real weight. My favorite songs, including this one, often have little percussion overall, but has a powerful, yet not prominent, base percussion. They make me 'feel' the beat better, and they sound really cool.

[Paul V]

I am a strong N as well (mid 80's if I remember right). I care alot about lyrics. The majority of music I listen to is lyric oriented, and my favorite music is that with very good/clever lyrics. I said this in another thread, but I don't see alot of difference between lyrics and poetry. I put alot of effort into improving my spoken communication and certainly appreciate it when others display a high level of skill at it whether it be in poetry rhetoric or lyrics. Generally the only times I relax and enjoy the music is when it is another language, and even then I am likely to look up a translation.

I say this to people repeatedly. To me, a song is art in two forms: Poetry and melody.

[Hdier]

I used to think that everyone saw lyrics and poetry as the same thing until someone looked at me odd for mentioning it (that seems to happen a lot...). Really, they are the same thing, just one has music to go along with it.

[Charlie Mc.]

Extremely overpowering N, little to no S.

I think that the lyrics enhance the music, when a song is done right. In a lot of my favorite songs, I love the rhythms and instruments, but the lyrics are what makes the song awesome (the icing on the cake, if you will). For example, in one of my favorite songs, The Vrondi's Eyes, the lyrics sound really cool and stir up my emotions, but it's the music that carries the real weight. My favorite songs, including this one, often have little percussion overall, but has a powerful, yet not prominent, base percussion. They make me 'feel' the beat better, and they sound really cool.


Good to see that I am not the only one who likes filk also. :thumbsup:

[Hdier]

Oh, I forgot to say that I also enjoy songs that speak to me. For example, there is a song (I forget it's name) that has a line that goes "save me from the nothing I've become", which really resonates within me, as I often feel that way. I know little of the rest of the song, but that one line makes it worth it.

Weird Al FTW!

[ankeshkothari]

Strong N. Prefer music over lyrics.

I usually never know the words of a song like others do and can't sing it.

[Paul V]

Oh, I forgot to say that I also enjoy songs that speak to me. For example, there is a song (I forget it's name) that has a line that goes "save me from the nothing I've become", which really resonates within me, as I often feel that way. I know little of the rest of the song, but that one line makes it worth it.

Weird Al FTW!

Evanescence's "Bring me to Life". I usually memorise the lyrics of the songs I relate to. It started as an exercise to improve my English and ended up a mental reflex.

[xhaan]

N: 62

I like both the lyrics and music. I think about what the lyrics are saying and how they make me feel, the manner and expressiveness with which they are sung, not necessarily the skill or niceness of the voice but I can appreciate those also.

I can also separate and compartmentalize the music (unless it's total noise wall), I hear different instruments and their tones, and their expressiveness, I often detect background noise, distortion, needle pops, looped samples (like short guitar riffs played looped for length...) I appreciate very much the technique and expression, artistry, of the music.

Also if I don't know the words, like with death metal, or hardcore, I tend to look them up and read them as I play the song to understand which part is saying what.

[Ytterbium]

I prefer the sound, the flow and the feelings which the music evokes. Then if the lyrics are thoughtful and expressed in such way it goes well the sound it's a plus. Generally I prefer music be of varying complex sounds and patterns. That makes it enjoyable listening to.
I don't like music "uhuh I love you *howls*" or rap.

[mikeeppolito]

Strong N. I almost always approach music in regard to the notes (i.e. melody & harmony): If it isn't either catchy, clever, interesting, or well-formed, then I don't have much interest in it as a work of art. But it's nice to sometimes know what they're saying so you can sing along or get a sense of what's going on in the song (sense of dramatics).

[Pinkie]

I like both... my favourite pieces of music are mostly instrumental, but I do love some vocal music too. However, I will only like music with lyrics if the lyrics make sense and mean something. After all, it's not hard to write a reasonably coherent and sensible set of rhyming words. People have been doing it for centuries.

[quentin]

You people are forgetting about phrasing. The right voice hitting the right lyric set to the right melody at the right time. There's an art to it: the marriage of a good lyric and a good melody to evoke a powerful emotion. Both are necessary.

For example, "Yesterday" by the Beatles contains one of pop's most memorable melodies. The melody came to Paul McCartney one morning and when he was eating breakfast he kept humming it, trying to set some lyrics to the tune. The original lyrics were, "Scrambled eggs, mmm-hmmm, scrambled eggs."

Somehow I don't think that "Yesterday" would be half as powerful if Paul had kept the original lyrics.

[xhaan]

You people are forgetting about phrasing. The right voice hitting the right lyric set to the right melody at the right time. There's an art to it: the marriage of a good lyric and a good melody to evoke a powerful emotion. Both are necessary.

For example, "Yesterday" by the Beatles contains one of pop's most memorable melodies. The melody came to Paul McCartney one morning and when he was eating breakfast he kept humming it, trying to set some lyrics to the tune. The original lyrics were, "Scrambled eggs, mmm-hmmm, scrambled eggs."

Somehow I don't think that "Yesterday" would be half as powerful if Paul had kept the original lyrics.

This is true, however I find that what "works" and what doesn't is subjective.
I feel there are general rules to music, yes, however I also feel that if you know those rules, you can then bend them or even break them. I have heard lyric parts that were off key, off beat, and just blurted out in a borderline incoherent manner, but for me it worked because the discord fit the mood and was done intentionally, not from a lack of skill or technique.. it WAS the technique.

[Maverick]

Strong N, and absolutely do not care about the lyrics. I'm into styles of music where they can be bypassed somewhat, such as Blues, Jazz, Hard-Rock and Heavy-Metal. I actually prefer instrumental music. I have noticed that this seems to be also a male/female difference, the latter paying far more attention to the lyrics.

[Firelie]

I'm a low/moderate N, and I like both the lyrics and music. Usually if I can't understand the lyrics (I listen to a lot of international folk music), I focus on the music and/or the way the vocals blend with it. With english music, I tend to pick out the lyrics unless the music is the more interesting of the two.

[King K]

Strong N (around 80%), I care more about the music than the lyrics, I also care a lot about phrasing, I usually prefer rock and metal over everything else.

[Alpha Prime]

I enjoy the instrumentals, but the lyrics are important as well, they aid my intuition.

[Paul V]

Come to think of it, I believe that your theory is just the opposite.

Sensors will stick to the music, or the melody, often humming the song without knowing the words; while Intuitives will try to learn the meaning behind it, and look for connections among the lyrics.

[Snuggles]

I'm a strong N (89%)... I really have no idea what the lyrics are to most songs, but if I find I really enjoy a particular tune that happens to have lyrics, I'll look them up and find that they relate to something happening or has happened, in my life.

However, I am currently quite fond of Post Rock bands like The Drift, Explosions in The Sky, Maserati etc.... (I think I just listed all the bands on Temporary Residence Limited...) and other Ambient Rock bands like Doves or Yeasayer. I care more about the melody and the fulfillment of the sound spectrum.

[Antares]

I'm a mild N. I like to listen to orchestral pieces and I try to distinguish Double Basses, Base Drums, Timpani, Trombone, Tuba, Flutes, Oboes and Baritones. Basically the lower and the softer instruments. Somehow I think that it trains my ears' sensitivity.

To me, lyrics are just as important and I can memorize lyrics to many songs. If the melody is exceptional, but the lyrics is bad, at best it will be a song that I listen to if I have nothing else. I highly value poetry and literature claims the same place in my mind as music. I don't listen to songs with lyrics that don't even make sense.

[INTJoe]

while Intuitives will try to learn the meaning behind it

I wouldn't consider lyrics to be "behind it". And I wouldn't even say lyrics give a song "meaning". In many instances, sure, but not all.

I think the lyrics, by most people, are considered "it", and the music is the "behind it".

The lyrics for most people are what smacks them in the face, while the music is just "ambience".

I, too, notice the lyrics, as they smack me in the face, but I hear them as a "necessary evil" and try to get past the words and see if there is quality music behind it.

If the melody is sung well, and it flows with the music, and everything is working together, the words themselves are completely meaningless imo. But the sounds that the words make lend themselves to the music, which becomes synergistic.

There is a point of diminishing returns. This isn't to say Pavarotti singing "I took a dump on a log", intertwined well with beautiful opera music would be considered good lyrics. lol.

[Paul V]

I wouldn't consider lyrics to be "behind it". And I wouldn't even say lyrics give a song "meaning". In many instances, sure, but not all.

I think the lyrics, by most people, are considered "it", and the music is the "behind it".

The lyrics for most people are what smacks them in the face, while the music is just "ambience".

I, too, notice the lyrics, as they smack me in the face, but I hear them as a "necessary evil" and try to get past the words and see if there is quality music behind it.

If the melody is sung well, and it flows with the music, and everything is working together, the words themselves are completely meaningless imo. But the sounds that the words make lend themselves to the music, which becomes synergistic.

There is a point of diminishing returns. This isn't to say Pavarotti singing "I took a dump on a log", intertwined well with beautiful opera music would be considered good lyrics. lol.

Errr... no. You're quite wrong. The majority of the songs you hear start as lyrics, and then they are paired with a melody that suits them. The main driving force of a song that has lyrics ARE the lyrics. Otherwise, there is no point in having them. If the composer wanted people to appreciate the melody of the song instead of the lyrics, he'd compose classical music (or ambience music, like jingles and that of videogames). The intention of a songmaker is the same as any artist, to transmit something through his art. If he wants to transmit something through the melody, then the lyrics are useless and in the way. If he wants to transmit something through the lyrics, then the melody has to complement and enhance them.

Didn't you read what I wrote? People can't memorise the lyrics of a song quickly. They must listen to it over and over again before it sticks. The melody, however, is burnt on the brain from the first time you hear it. That's what people remember, and that's what people focus their attention in. But don't take my word for it, find some research to disprove it, if you're so sure of the opposite.

Well, then unless you're unbiased enough to consider other points of view, this conversation is going to be quite one-sided.

I find it to be completely the opposite, but almost everyone I know agrees with you. And they're all Sensors. Almost everyone I know could care less about the lyrics, all they want in a song is a rythm that's suitable for dancing, or that is pleasant to the ear and catchy.

Of course not, what's the point of that?

[INTJoe]

Paul, you came into a thread and said "Intuitives will look for the meaning behind it". How are lyrics "the meaning behind it"!? What is 'behind it' about words that smack you right in the face? Most people can hear every word in a song, but you can ask all kinds of people if they hear the cowbell in "Don't fear the reaper" and they couldn't pick it out for the life of them.

And I never said I was "right". I just thought I'd start a thread asking the question. And after 3 pages, and a majority of N's saying they prefer music to lyrics, and putting it in writing, you came in and said "You know what? The complete opposite of your theory is right."..."All my friends prefer the music like you but they're sensors."

That doesn't really help the thread too much. Have all of your sensor pals sign up on here and post their thoughts in the thread. If anything, it'll help the site grow, and provide actual evidence.

[Gonzo]

Paul, you came into a thread and said "Intuitives will look for the meaning behind it". How are lyrics "the meaning behind it"!? What is 'behind it' about words that smack you right in the face? Most people can hear every word in a song, but you can ask all kinds of people if they hear the cowbell in "Don't fear the reaper" and they couldn't pick it out for the life of them.


First something a little off topic, regarding the cowbell (I just can't help myself): To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Thought you might enjoy this if you haven't seen it. Funny as hell :cheesy:

As for lyrics vs music, I mostly listen to instrumental music like trance and classical (strong N btw), so it comes down to music for me. Although one of my favorite songs is "The Drugs Don't Work" by The Verve, and thats all about the lyrics...

So even though I like instrumental music best, I think lyrics are more important in "normal" songs. If your gonna have lyrics I feel they need a serious meaning to be worth listening too, and not just senseless jibberish ;)

[danalaina]

hm.

well, i don't tend to listen to much instrumental music because i like to sing along, so i want lyrics.

but, i also don't generally pay attention to what those lyrics are unless i'm interested in learning them so i can sing along better. the content isn't that important.

the music itself is really important - rhythmic elements, especially - but it's not often that i opt for something with no words.

i think i'd have to say i'm somewhere in between. if the music isn't enjoyable for me, the best lyrics in the world won't fix it, but if there aren't any lyrics, i'm much less likely to listen to it often.

i'm a low to mid range N.

[emaleth]

I am heavily inclined towards linguistics, so i prefer the music with lyrics. i don't think that lyrics are behind the music- to me it is all a blend. the lyrics however great they might be can't make up for a lack of rhythm and sense.
sounds alone however if they are good and have a logic to them can make for a great song.

however, preferences are preferences. so lyrics and music arranged sensibly are what i usually go for :)