BSG Finale

[boldbidder]

How bout it, any Galactica fans around? Any thoughts on the finale?

Personally, I thought it bordered on the sublime. Ron Moore and his team of writers did a phenomenal job tying up plot threads that had been introduced to 2 and 3 years ago. I'll be sad not to be able to watch BSG anymore, but I'm glad that Ron Moore stuck to his guns and told the story he wanted and didn't needlessly extend the series for a couple seasons despite the big money he was offered.

[Lycurgus]

It was truly an epic saga, ended in a truly fantastic way. The entire series could have ended at almost any point beyond the 1/2 way mark, and it would've been the best ending ever. But to end it the way they did, with Ron Moore himself, and "you know he doesn't like to be called that," was probably one of the most... well... amazing endings of all time.

[Freedom Geek]

Could have done with 100% less luddite.

[Lycurgus]

Could have done with 100% less luddite.Agreed.

They should've kept complete records, this time. Cataloging everything, and maybe that actually would have broken the cycle.

[DewFuel]

The series hit the shit fan midway through season 3.

Season 4 was a haphazard mess.

Something foul went on in the upper management that managed to change gold into lead.

[Merle]

Could have done with 100% less luddite.


Absolutely! I was a little offended: you make a science fiction show about robots, you appeal to people who like that kind of thing; then you go and whack them around the face with "technology is BAD, we should all go back to the agrarian simple life, then we'll be closer to God" thing after dragging them along with you for 4 seasons... it was all a bit condescending I thought.

[Lycurgus]

Absolutely! I was a little offended: you make a science fiction show about robots, you appeal to people who like that kind of thing; then you go and whack them around the face with "technology is BAD, we should all go back to the agrarian simple life, then we'll be closer to God" thing after dragging them along with you for 4 seasons... it was all a bit condescending I thought.I don't think it was about being closer to G(/g)od(s), it was about breaking the cycle.

Which, they inadvertently perpetuated, which was part of the point, I think.

If you have a destiny, then fighting it will do you no good, and you might, in fact, be making it happen by fighting it.

[Freedom Geek]

I don't think it was about being closer to G(/g)od(s), it was about breaking the cycle.

Which, they inadvertently perpetuated, which was part of the point, I think.

If you have a destiny, then fighting it will do you no good, and you might, in fact, be making it happen by fighting it.

But they broke the aesop by making their attempts to fight destiny completely stupid and irrational. Do they really think humanity will never develop technology again if they give it up? Probably because their aesop is completely stupid and if they had made the attempts to stop destiny rational and smart then they would have required a deus ex machina to break it.

[Lycurgus]

But they broke the aesop by making their attempts to fight destiny completely stupid and irrational. Because humans always make rational, informed, intelligent choices?

Do they really think humanity will never develop technology again if they give it up? No, but keep in mind that they don't know how the cycle works. They may assume that giving up the technology is the only chance they even have.

Or, that even if its truly unavoidable, they at least have some level of safety for they kids, and their kids, and so on. Keep in mind we only have 2-4,000 years history & civilization behind us.

They had 30,000 IIRC, maybe hey wanted their desendants to have a few tens of thousands of years of peace before the cycle began again.

Probably because their aesop is completely stupid and if they had made the attempts to stop destiny rational and smart then they would have required a deus ex machina to break it.The show implies that it will still happen again...

[Freedom Geek]

Because humans always make rational, informed, intelligent choices?

No, but keep in mind that they don't know how the cycle works. They may assume that giving up the technology is the only chance they even have.

Or, that even if its truly unavoidable, they at least have some level of safety for they kids, and their kids, and so on. Keep in mind we only have 2-4,000 years history & civilization behind us.

They had 30,000 IIRC, maybe hey wanted their desendants to have a few tens of thousands of years of peace before the cycle began again.

The show implies that it will still happen again...

No humans are not always rational but it still changes the aesop from don't fight destiny to don't be a moron when fighting destiny. As long as they keep the knowledge of the past alive they'll still have a long while before another AI war and even the occasional devastating AI war is nothing compared to the sheer poverty of pre-technological life.

[Lycurgus]

As a note: The entire series is a Dues Ex Machina, from Kara to All along the Watchtower (I did love the line "There must be some way out of here...") to the "Super Gaius" and "Super Six." The entire series is predicated on a higher power.

No humans are not always rational but it still changes the aesop from don't fight destiny to don't be a moron when fighting destiny. As long as they keep the knowledge of the past alive they'll still have a long while before another AI war and even the occasional devastating AI war is nothing compared to the sheer poverty of pre-technological life. Poverty and lack of technology don't always go hand in hand, but they often do, yes.

Keep in mind that they joined 'earth' when poverty wouldn't have been an issue because, frankly, there were almost no humans to be found. Poverty (to humanity) only became a real issue in the last thousand or so years, when the human population exploded.

[Freedom Geek]

As a note: The entire series is a Dues Ex Machina, from Kara to All along the Watchtower (I did love the line "There must be some way out of here...") to the "Super Gaius" and "Super Six." The entire series is predicated on a higher power.

Poverty and lack of technology don't always go hand in hand, but they often do, yes.

Keep in mind that they joined 'earth' when poverty wouldn't have been an issue because, frankly, there were almost no humans to be found. Poverty (to humanity) only became a real issue in the last thousand or so years, when the human population exploded.

I must admit I quite dislike the religious (and luddite) parts of this story.
Perhaps they do not have resource poverty but what about medicine, bathing or basic luxuries. Without technology they lack all those things. Remember that the reason there were almost no humans around was because we kept dieing.

[Lycurgus]

I must admit I quite dislike the religious (and luddite) parts of this story.I'll be honest, as irreligious as I am, I enjoyed it as much (or more) because of than in spite of the religious parts of the story.

Kind of the way I've so far enjoyed the TV Series Kings.

Perhaps they do not have resource poverty but what about medicine, bathing or basic luxuries. Bathing without technology is easy, medicine is more complicated but can be done, you'd be surprised how many medicines we're (re)discovering these days that were used before penicillin.

As for basic luxuries, some people find peace and relaxation, without technology to be the ultimate bliss. You're projecting a personal bias in that respect.

Without technology they lack all those things. Not really.

Remember that the reason there were almost no humans around was because we kept dieing.And because Rate of Reproduction was lower... infant & child mortality was higher... etc.



That, of course, doesn't mean it's perfect. But keep in mind the entire series is about imperfection. The Cylons could've simply made peace when they came back to the 12 Colonies, but instead they launched a Genocidal rampage.

The Cylons could've let the 12,000 of them go, but instead they insisted upon chasing them to the ends of space.

The Cylons could've exterminated them on New Caprica, finishing the job they couldn't in the previous years.

The Cavil faction could've joined the Sixes (and had peace, finishing the job they set out to do on New Caprica, instead of the Genocide), but instead they decided to resume trying to genocide.

That, on top of all the thousands of individual mistakes and imperfections that the Cylons & Humans alike, made.

Not to mention, Head Gaius and Head Six... they liked to stack the deck. :laugh:

[Freedom Geek]

I'll be honest, as irreligious as I am, I enjoyed it as much (or more) because of than in spite of the religious parts of the story.

Kind of the way I've so far enjoyed the TV Series Kings.

Bathing without technology is easy, medicine is more complicated but can be done, you'd be surprised how many medicines we're (re)discovering these days that were used before penicillin.

As for basic luxuries, some people find peace and relaxation, without technology to be the ultimate bliss. You're projecting a personal bias in that respect.

Not really.

And because Rate of Reproduction was lower... infant & child mortality was higher... etc.



That, of course, doesn't mean it's perfect. But keep in mind the entire series is about imperfection. The Cylons could've simply made peace when they came back to the 12 Colonies, but instead they launched a Genocidal rampage.

The Cylons could've let the 12,000 of them go, but instead they insisted upon chasing them to the ends of space.

The Cylons could've exterminated them on New Caprica, finishing the job they couldn't in the previous years.

The Cavil faction could've joined the Sixes (and had peace, finishing the job they set out to do on New Caprica, instead of the Genocide), but instead they decided to resume trying to genocide.

That, on top of all the thousands of individual mistakes and imperfections that the Cylons & Humans alike, made.

Not to mention, Head Gaius and Head Six... they liked to stack the deck. :laugh:

Bathing isn't the right word, a better word would be sanitation. Just think of water purification for instance.
While hunter-gatherers may have some medicine it certainly doesn't compare to the modern stuff, what the colonials would know about when starting especially.
Some people find pure relaxation but I'm talking about the sum of all their experiences.
I have never seen a source that claimed reproduction was lower in hunter-gatherers and child mortality (which is a horrible thing in of itself) doesn't quite account for the total loss of lifespan, these people will have significantly lower lifespans.

[Merle]

I don't think it was about being closer to G(/g)od(s), it was about breaking the cycle.

Which, they inadvertently perpetuated, which was part of the point, I think.

If you have a destiny, then fighting it will do you no good, and you might, in fact, be making it happen by fighting it.

The way I saw it, the destiny is not that they become technological and create cylons and the cylons turn on them etc etc again. The destiny was these survivors getting to Earth. The whole journey was orchestrated by God/the gods (whatever) in order for them to start again with a clean slate. It only happens over and over again because humans keep making the wrong choice (in god's/the gods' eyes) and embrace science and technology thus leading to the cylons the uprising etc. It's basically a big Blakean anti-scientific creation myth.

[Lycurgus]

Bathing isn't the right word, a better word would be sanitation. Just think of water purification for instance. You don't need to purify water from most streams, ponds, etc.

I have never seen a source that claimed reproduction was lower in hunter-gatherers.Fertility is lower in more primitive societies.

The way I saw it, the destiny is not that they become technological and create cylons and the cylons turn on them etc etc again. The destiny was these survivors getting to Earth. The whole journey was orchestrated by God/the gods (whatever) in order for them to start again with a clean slate. It only happens over and over again because humans keep making the wrong choice (in god's/the gods' eyes) and embrace science and technology thus leading to the cylons the uprising etc. It's basically a big Blakean anti-scientific creation myth.I didn't see the mistake as embracing technology, but abusing the technology. If you ascribe it to a mistake at all.

Head Gaius and Head Six (six, specifically) implied that it didn't have to happen this time, despite the fact that we've embraced technology today.

[Merle]

If you ascribe it to a mistake at all.



What do you mean?
If you're saying it's not a mistake then what you're saying is that god's plan is actually for the whole sorry cycle to play itself out over and over again: the repetition of the cycle is the aim, Which I just don't think is true.

[Lycurgus]

What do you mean?
If you're saying it's not a mistake then what you're saying is that god's plan is actually for the whole sorry cycle to play itself out over and over again: the repetition of the cycle is the aim, Which I just don't think is true.My point was, ascribing the cycle to a mistake is a leap of logic.

It requires;
1. The same choice is made repeatedly
2. 'God' (the unmentioned, unnamed higher power) has determined that this choice is undesirable.
3. That 'God' is unable (or prefers not to) intercede when the choice is being made, but rather after the choice is made.

1 is a given. 2 & 3, however, are not.




One could make the argument that "becoming (G/g)ods" (through the creation of life) caused the retribution from 'God,' and have a solid case, just as one could make the argument that the cause was the mistake of embraced technology.

I just don't think that the root cause was embracing technology, but abusing the technology. In reference to Head Six's comments about complex systems, it seems to me that it's perfectly possible (since they were referring to our society today) for us to go on, continue technological advancement and still avoid a Cylon Revolt of our own, based on the fact we are taking a similar, but not exactly the same, path.

[Merle]

My point was, ascribing the cycle to a mistake is a leap of logic.

It requires;
1. The same choice is made repeatedly
2. 'God' (the unmentioned, unnamed higher power) has determined that this choice is undesirable.
3. That 'God' is unable (or prefers not to) intercede when the choice is being made, but rather after the choice is made.

1 is a given. 2 & 3, however, are not.






I'm not making a leap of logic, I'm following the motifs and symbols of the show to their natural conclusions. The final montage of robotic innovations clearly suggests that we on this Earth are headed towards the same fate as humanity in BSG. I agree that we don't know if god is angered by us appropriating godliness by becoming creators of life, or if it's how we treat that life that is the mistake, but that is an entirely moot point of discussion because the show's ultimate message is 'don't dabble in tech too much because goddoesn't like it and you'll all end up dead'. Six's words about complex systems and maths etc seemed pretty flimsy against the rich symbolism of the survivors casting off civilisation and returning to nature: the suggestion the show makes is that the best way to stop themselves making the wrong choice is to give up technology all together.

Your points about not knowing whether god thinks the choice of using high level technology is desirable or when and how god can intervene are taking the show out of the Western religious context in which it was made, and which it clearly alludes to. The daddy of the ship is Adama, obviously (gosh could they make it any clearer with the name?!) an Adam figure. The show deliberately draws parallels with Genesis and the finale suggested pretty clearly to me that this Earth was a new Eden from which humanity risks being cast out if it again seeks knowledge god does not want it to possess. The whole point of the Eden story is that humanity has free will to make the choice he wants - God will not intervene except to punish the wrong choice. BSG clearly subscribes to that notion, and to pretend those overtones don't exist is disingenuous.

[Lycurgus]

The final montage of robotic innovations clearly suggests that we on this Earth are headed towards the same fate as humanity in BSG. This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I think the robot montage, coupled with Head Six's comments, are more about not abusing your technology, and, as Lee Adama said, ensuring that morals advance with technology, rather than ascribing to ancient philosophies which may or may not apply in an ever changing, dynamic world.

Six's words about complex systems and maths etc seemed pretty flimsy against the rich symbolism of the survivors casting off civilisation and returning to nature: the suggestion the show makes is that the best way to stop themselves making the wrong choice is to give up technology all together.That's what the Survivors thought, and that is one of the possible messages from the show. However, personally, I don't think that's the message that the show, as a whole, prevails.

A society took a step towards ludditism, however that step failed. Is that not more of a condemnation (if you choose to accept that it failed)?

Also, I don't think Adama was meant to be "Adam," I think Adama was the name of the original Adama in the original show, and filled that role, which is leader and Patriarch of the fleet... But that's another discussion entirely.

[boldbidder]

I kinda took the view that the show wasn't saying to cast aside technology, but rather that being married to ideals/philosophies/morals set in an ancient past coupled with modern technology is a recipe for disaster (e.g. I believe in some holy after life so let's nuke everyone else). Lee's monologue seemed to be saying that with out the proper moral and philosophical advancement then we'd be doomed to repeat the cycle, I didn't get from his diatribe that tech itself was inherently evil.

The meta-religious symbolism in the final 30 minutes was a bit much though.....Hera walking around in robes with a staff in particular really clubbed the audience over the head in my opinion.

All things considered though I think BSG is probably the best television show of all time. I just started re-watching the series yesterday and its amazing how you look at things with foreknowledge of what's to come. I say again, Ron Moore and his writing team did an outstanding job bordering on the sublime.

[Merle]

I kinda took the view that the show wasn't saying to cast aside technology, but rather that being married to ideals/philosophies/morals set in an ancient past coupled with modern technology is a recipe for disaster (e.g. I believe in some holy after life so let's nuke everyone else). Lee's monologue seemed to be saying that with out the proper moral and philosophical advancement then we'd be doomed to repeat the cycle, I didn't get from his diatribe that tech itself was inherently evil.

The meta-religious symbolism in the final 30 minutes was a bit much though.....Hera walking around in robes with a staff in particular really clubbed the audience over the head in my opinion.

All things considered though I think BSG is probably the best television show of all time. I just started re-watching the series yesterday and its amazing how you look at things with foreknowledge of what's to come. I say again, Ron Moore and his writing team did an outstanding job bordering on the sublime.


I totally agree that as a whole it was an amazing show!

But, just to nitpick your point: if the big reveal of the finale was that god had engineered the whole thing, proving that there is a higher power orchestrating creation, life and everything else, and therefore that the religious visions, prophesies and other sundry mystical/spiritual elements of the show were valid, and real and NOT the crazy imaginings of sick people/ crazy people/ fundamentalists then it can't logically be wrong for those elements to continue to exist in the society at any level of its development.





Merle added to this post, 18 minutes and 58 seconds later...


Also, I don't think Adama was meant to be "Adam," I think Adama was the name of the original Adama in the original show, and filled that role, which is leader and Patriarch of the fleet... But that's another discussion entirely.

You really think that in a show as replete with Biblical and religious references as this one is that Adama's name is nothing but a scribal accident?! The original show was almost as religiously allusive as this one, yes they carried the name over, but that doesn't stop it functioning as a potent symbol.

[Lycurgus]

You really think that in a show as replete with Biblical and religious references as this one is that Adama's name is nothing but a scribal accident?! The original show was almost as religiously allusive as this one, yes they carried the name over, but that doesn't stop it functioning as a potent symbol.It was Hera who was the mitochondrial "Eve," and there was no mention of a Y-Chromosome Adam.

I donno, maybe, it just didn't jump out at me as "Adam & Eve," so much. I could've gone with either Adama being Adam if either had been shown with a mate, and reproducing... or even with a mate after they reached Earth.

Even though William Adama was a Patriarch, I just don't see him being Adam. More filling the role of Adam (and Eve) to me, would be Helo (and Athena).

[Merle]

The symbolism isn't as literal as that, and the show mixes it all up because it never really thought its symbolic dimensions through properly, more just grabbed everything and anything that helped it add more layers along the way. But, Adama (Adm Adama) as Patriarch of the survivors and thus as the father of humanity on our Earth is a fairly straight parallel to Adam as father of humanity, no? Plus, the name makes that hard to ignore.

[Frodis]

I thought it was beautifully done. I laughed, I cried. My Friday nights just got a bit lonelier; BSG was always my "thing" to look forward to. I'll be impatiently waiting for the complete series DVD collection (they better release one!).

At first, I was wary of the religious mythology. But it works (for me, anyway). It was hopeful, but maintained that sense that all this COULD happen again. My husband keeps saying that they didn't answer this or that, etc. But I prefer to let my mind fill in the blanks. Removing all the mystery would've ruined it for me.

I can't think of any other way I would've wanted it to end. I initially thought it would be revealed that the "humans" were all actually Cylons all along. It didn't do that explicitly, but the theme of "this has all happened before" suggests that humans - in whatever their original form - ceased to exist long before the show takes place. And the humans of the colonies must be some hybrid of human and Cylon. Makes you question what it means to be "human."