Gentlemen! Just how much does it take to get you to notice? [Archive]

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 05:25 PM

Half of this is a rant, half a question. Just hear me out.

I have been in two relationships before, both equally catastrophic and dysfunctional. One was extremely successful until the guy went wild and had a few sexual mishaps. The other kept having nervous breakdowns. Needless to say, I haven't had much luck with men.

I currently have a medium amount of interest (quantification for feelings... an INTJ thing?) on this certain classmate. Unfortunately, he is either A: so oblivious that he won't notice if a pig flew above his head, or B: he doesn't like me at all. Numerous friends (both his and mine) have stated A, including himself. Which is fine. But this brings the question...

how much signs do you need to take notice?

Eyelash batting? Stripping naked? (Okay, that's a bit too far, but you get my point). I tend to notice who's here and who's not right away, so being ignored (as a result) is rather painful. I am at a complete loss at what to do. We know each other vaguely well (as in, we know who we are, talked a few times, e.t.c.). I've been after him for five months. Should I get a move on? Or should I forget about the "get a" and move on? Usually I'm picky so I don't say yes when a guy asks me out even if I'm single and looking... yes, that may be a problem but that's not the topic of this discussion. I have no idea if a guy's mind works the same.

Also, he is moving in with his "friend" next year. I have no idea if "friend" implies group of friends, or just singular. From the looks of it, the said friend is a female. This slightly disturbs me, but that's just an addendum.

Any insight?

Nightshiver2

03-17-2009, 05:28 PM

Just ask one of your friends, to tell one of his friends, that you want him to ask you out. I saw this stunt pulled many times in high school with success.

Kisai

03-17-2009, 05:29 PM

After 5 months of being unsuccessful, you should drop him and move along. If he hasn't noticed you, he doesn't like you.

Solaris

03-17-2009, 05:30 PM

Well, you really need to ascertain if he is single first. Is he? Anything else I might say is a waste or irrelevant if he's not.

Storm

03-17-2009, 05:40 PM

Why don't you just ask him out? (Ok, just remembered that "ask out" in highschool can mean "Will you be my boy/girlfriend?" and not "Will you go on a date with me?") So, just ask him to a movie.

azelismia

03-17-2009, 05:41 PM

Well, you really need to ascertain if he is single first. Is he? Anything else I might say is a waste or irrelevant if he's not.

yup a female friend may or may not really be a "friend"

not being single is a very good reason not to notice someone. If you've put yourself in his way a few times and exchanged niceties and he still isn't showing interest.. he's not interested. for whatever reason. maybe he's involved, maybe you're not his type.. so on and so forth.

move on.

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 05:41 PM

Storm

03-17-2009, 05:42 PM

^Further proof that highschoolers are often shallow. Who cares how attractive other people find him?

azelismia

03-17-2009, 05:43 PM

To my belief, he is single... I've heard about his mum, his grandmother, his sister, and his father, but never about his girlfriend. None of has ever heard about his girlfriend either. To be honest, all of my friends are querying my sanity because apparently he rates a 4 out of 10 in attractiveness :P

oh.. in that case maybe he thinks he isn't worthy. in that case my advice is to make physical contact with him. touch him while talking to him and go out of your way to talk to him.

Plane Stress

03-17-2009, 05:46 PM

I don't agree with the people that say he's not interested-he could very well be interested and oblivious. If you get the nerve up, ask him out. Or read some of the threads on here about how to tell if a guy is interested, maybe you are missing something. I wouldn't give up because if you've been after him for 5 months and you're still interesting, then he obviously isn't going to be easy to forget about... you've just got to find out whether or not he likes you back.

Edit: Oh yeah, I like Azi's suggestion. That's a sure-fire way to get an introverts attention. Then apologize and see how he reacts. Just like brush his arm or something.

Cygnus

03-17-2009, 05:49 PM

That's a trick question! I notice alot, but what a woman considers "signals" varies considerably, plus of course any "signal" has to be something I would recognize as well as have a positive reaction to. Then if I picking up on these signal, and I am interested, I would have to determine if she is just a flirt, if she just want something from me, or if the interest genuine...

ScurvyRose

03-17-2009, 05:52 PM

There are times where I have run into a male not talking about an "other" in their life. It does not mean that there isn't one, it could just mean they enjoy the light banter that inflates his ego. The signs you need to look for also include what isn't said. He has not said he is available, he has not inquired about your plans for the week (weekend). These are very telling.

Enjoy the flirt, but do not spend your time on this, especially if you have already made it known that you are available. His not acting or admitting any status will likely not lead to what you have been hoping for.

Just remember the non-action on his part is absolutely no reflection on you as a person, it is just not the connection you want.

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 06:03 PM

Well, here we're reaching the other problem. Ever since my first relationship I seem to make myself quite distant from my crush (although since this is my first since my first break-up, I can't really tell). I'd invite him to things, but as my friend said, "it's like he's an afterthought". We pass each other, but he doesn't say hi and neither do I. I don't talk to him privately. So no, there are no flirtations.

My friend's observation was that "he might be VERY VERY insecure". The first tell-tale sign was that he seems to hide his face behind his hair (literally); you can't really see half his face. He sits alone in the lectures, while I clump with my friends (and I am ALWAYS surrounded by friends for some reason).

The second is an anecdotal intuition. Our mutual friend asked me to round up some friends so we could all go to an amusement park together. I had no idea where the said location was, and neither did he. So he asked my classmate (the topic). He replied; I assumed then that he was invited. Why would you ask someone where an event's location is when you haven't invited him?

A few days later, I tried to ring my friend up to see how many people he needed, but since he wasn't available I (bravely) rang the guy up to ask him. His first reaction was, "what?" followed by "I wasn't aware I was invited... I thought you guys were just mentioning it in passing. I thought it was your event." I would have been upset if two of my friends were setting up this huge day-out and I wasn't invited (that is, if they were talking about it right in front of me and even asked me where the said place was), but he seemed to accept it like it was all natural.

So, a little more information about the guy.

By the way, I am not a high school student. I'm in med school... is that why I don't find that many attractive guys? :S

dogwoodlover

03-17-2009, 06:06 PM

If you are set on trying to nab this guy, just be overly direct. Go up to him, ask him what he's doing tonight, and then ask him to go do x with you. Then once you're there, sit extra close, lean on him, brush his hand, etc.

If at that point he doesn't respond, either A) he's a pussy and can't make a move, in which case you should forget about him B) he's an idiot C) he's taken or D) he's completely uninterested. Either way it will solve your questions / problem most likely.

HeyZeus

03-17-2009, 06:10 PM

I second (third?) the suggestion "go junior high" and have a mutual acquaintance explore whether he's asexual or not, taken or not, interested or not.

If he says no, tell everyone he misunderstood, and you really were just interested in seeing his bug collection.

HeyZeus added to this post, 1 minutes and 35 seconds later...

By the way, I am not a high school student. I'm in med school... is that why I don't find that many attractive guys? :S

Ahhh...no. It's not that. It's that you're in the UK. Just peeped your profile.

Cygnus

03-17-2009, 06:16 PM

It is hard for me to follow what you are saying, but I am seeing you are not really looking for general feedback, more specific advise for your current situation. So I will back out and wish you the best.

Cygnus added to this post, 3 minutes and 47 seconds later...

If you are set on trying to nab this guy, just be overly direct. Go up to him, ask him what he's doing tonight, and then ask him to go do x with you. Then once you're there, sit extra close, lean on him, brush his hand, etc.

If at that point he doesn't respond, either A) he's a pussy and can't make a move, in which case you should forget about him B) he's an idiot C) he's taken or D) he's completely uninterested. Either way it will solve your questions / problem most likely.

In all fairness Dogwood...if this is a loner, introverted guy...being confronted buy a group of social friends...his defenses are likely up. I think we all learn in school how cruel people can be...

Thinker

03-17-2009, 06:19 PM

I'm in the "Eyelash batting and Stripping naked" camp.

I have never been able to tell whether anyone is flirting with me.
Then again....perhaps no-one has!:p

Jinxu

03-17-2009, 06:21 PM

Any insight?

What kind of signs of interest are you giving out? Are you giving out any at all?

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 06:23 PM

Well, I have invited him to social gatherings that my group holds (picnic, e.t.c.) but none exclusively with him. I have his number but I generally don't call without a valid reason. Spontaneity is not my thing...

Jinxu

03-17-2009, 06:26 PM

That's fair. But it could be misinterpreted or missed depending on how socially intelligent the guy is?

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 06:36 PM

Well, I won't give my opinion, since I'm the first-person narrator and that's never accurate enough. He terms himself "social", but as far as all my friends could see he was a typical medical school social imbecile (no offence intended, but we do have loads of those). Also he came off as slightly childish when we were sitting in the sun yesterday - there were about 6 of us, and he and his friend were throwing grass at each other.

Jinxu

03-17-2009, 06:42 PM

My friend's observation was that "he might be VERY VERY insecure". The first tell-tale sign was that he seems to hide his face behind his hair (literally); you can't really see half his face. He sits alone in the lectures, while I clump with my friends (and I am ALWAYS surrounded by friends for some reason).

Okay I've read some more. I can't tell if he likes you or not based on what you've said. But let's assume he does. If he is shy, you need to create some opportunities for him to talk to you alone. Standing near him helps.

Second, you could give him a smile once in a while to show you are interested. We are not mind reader and smiling is the most basic and best way to show that you're interested. You can smile and shyly look down and away and that works too.

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 06:57 PM

Jinxu

03-17-2009, 07:02 PM

If you're attractive, there is always some level of interest. If you were to ask and I wasn't aware that you were interested, I would need some time to think about it. But, I would probably agree if you were attractive enough.

Also, if you're going that route, you might want to casually mention that you don't usually do something like that because usually girls don't do the asking.

Cthulhu

03-17-2009, 07:03 PM

Another question (on a tangent) is... would you go out with a girl that you're not interested in, if she asked you out? Or is an initial interest an absolute requirement?

I'll go out with just about anyone a couple of times, as long as they don't bear too strong a resemblance to my avatar. It takes me a couple of dates to decide whether or not I'm really interested in someone.

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 07:13 PM

I'll go out with just about anyone a couple of times, as long as they don't bear too strong a resemblance to my avatar. It takes me a couple of dates to decide whether or not I'm really interested in someone.

Aw why not? Your avatar's awesome :P

2obvious

03-17-2009, 07:54 PM

Gentlemen!

(? ! I'm a gentleman. ...?)

Just how much does it take to get you to notice?

(?) This...is a rhetorical question. Right?

Because otherwise it's just emotional and confusing.

Acextreme

03-17-2009, 08:15 PM

Hmm. I might try that... :) I am laughing 80% of the time though, so I'd have to stop to smile :P

Another question (on a tangent) is... would you go out with a girl that you're not interested in, if she asked you out? Or is an initial interest an absolute requirement?

Well, read through most that's posted. To your initial question of how much signs needed, I would say that depends. The strength and quantity of the signals required varies for different individuals. But seeing that your target is apparently oblivious to anything but an outright declaration, I would suggest you turn the heat up a little and chase him for a while. For example, you can walk up to him and say hi and start talking to him like asking what's he doing then, what's his hobbies, etc, and then say that you heard of this place/movie that's interesting but have not had the chance to experience it yet and suggest to go together.

Well, if a girl that's reasonably attractive (i.e. normal acceptable looks) ask me out, I would probably agree and see where that leads to (i.e. see if she's interested in me or not) before making a decision whether to consider her; dates are opportunities to test one's worth for suitability to be life-time partners. So yeah, even if I have no interest whatsoever initially, but if a girl is interested and ask me out, I will go along for a while to see if she suits me. Interest can be developed if I find sufficient qualities in her that matches my list. Sorry this sounds so much like making an economical and rational decision in what should be an emotional (i.e. love relationship) decision but hey, you are asking an INTJ so what do you expect; we make decisions almost leaving emotions out of the picture and analyze the marginal cost and benefits of any decision in an absolute rational manner using mostly (if not entirely) objective criteria.

Therefore, for such decision-makers (your interest article may be as I described), it's vital that information (i.e. flirting signals) be concrete to base decisions on and opportunities (i.e. relationships) be presented right-in-the-face if the subject isn't particularly hunting for them.

LaoTzu

03-17-2009, 08:34 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here...

Not really, just sounds cool.

I would definitely go out with a woman that asked me. Interest is the main thing, but there's also the part about 'being seen' with a pretty woman. Even if it didn't amount to anything, it's still a good ego boost; especially when it's in a social situation with people I would know. The only reason I would decline would be pure fear/shyness (which I don't have...) or , if I didn't think her and I would make a good match, and she wanted more.... or worse yet, if I thought she was 'playing' me; and had some kind of agenda.

I would suggest you just ingratiate yourself a little more into his life. It amazes me that women feel that same insecurity that men do... especially the attractive ones.... I just don't get it. Being a woman gives you a 'free pass' to deal with men in any way you want.

You've talked to him...talked over the phone (albeit in a benign way)... you've already moved past the first hurdle. I'd avoid just bluntly asking him out, but....

You could slip something into conversation... like " I think you owe me an Ice-Cream for that one..." or something like it.

And compliment him. Not a hell of a lot, but here and there. If he is a 4/10, he'll probably think you're nuts, but it makes it plain that you are into him.

My only question is.... do you really want to be with someone who isn't up to pursuing you?? :/

Gabrielle

03-17-2009, 08:59 PM

My only question is.... do you really want to be with someone who isn't up to pursuing you?? :/
You do bring up a good point. The thing is, though, a lot of men do pursue me for purely sexual motives (as a lot of 18~25 year old males are wont to do). I feel safe around him; I don't think he'll be ripping my shirt off anytime soon, as one of my friends tried to do.

Someone has to pursue the other first... I'm not quite sure how this works! hmm.

Wapiti

03-17-2009, 09:18 PM

I just read the post where you said you had his number?????? I'll just say "use it!" Quit asking us and call the guy. Direct sounds like the way to go after reading this thread. Or if you like, pm his number to me and I'll call him for you, maybe we could conference us all in and get the situation straight. :)

gestalt

03-17-2009, 09:22 PM

Half of this is a rant, half a question. Just hear me out.

Well said, Striking singularity with your relationship experience.

Your love interest is too wrapped up to take notice. He isn't ready to commit to anything, if that's your subconscious desire. What do you want from him and how are you going to get it? Motivate his ass.

Jinxu

03-17-2009, 10:30 PM

You do bring up a good point. The thing is, though, a lot of men do pursue me for purely sexual motives (as a lot of 18~25 year old males are wont to do). I feel safe around him; I don't think he'll be ripping my shirt off anytime soon, as one of my friends tried to do.

Someone has to pursue the other first... I'm not quite sure how this works! hmm.

That does seem to be the universal law of attraction. One party has to be the one doing the initiating, otherwise nothing will happen. Usually it's men that initiate things and women responds, but there's no rule that women can't make the first move.

Personally, I prefer that women make the first move. The world would be a more efficient and happier place. :smartass:

alphawolf

03-17-2009, 11:38 PM

This guy has low self-esteem. He is shy, with you and the social circle.

If you want to work black magic on the guy, then study this article. It's written to be used on women, but it will work just the same on a man.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Be warned, if you work black magic on him, you'll never be able to get rid of him... Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

jm123

03-18-2009, 01:24 AM

Most likely nice guy syndrome. I suffered severely from this. In high school my wife tells me I was a 9.5 out of 10. Yet every girl I asked out (that knew me) shot me down, as the perfect guy to marry, but just not potential boyfriend material? After awhile of hearing this from girls that flirt non-stop with you, it is almost impossible to tell what the hell any girl wants.

My suggestion as a nice insecure guy. Either be upfront and ask him out. Or make excuses to talk with him and almost throw yourself on him. However be forewarned us insecure nice guys, believe in chivalry so we can be very sloooooow. Also it sounds like he may have never have had a true relationship, and unless you are strong willed, you should forget about him.

MaleVolentworld

03-18-2009, 02:29 AM

I remember a new girl that joined my old workplace. On the very first day she was there, while I was putting down the shutter, she was waiting outside for me just to smile and say goodbye. I thought she was just being friendly but I also wasn't available at the time. Thinking about it recently, why the hell would anyone hang around after work just to say goodbye to someone they don't even know on their first day and give them a smile? it was definitely a present for me since no one has ever done that to me before.

Anyway just ask him if he wants to go to the cinema or something.

School days were strange, I remember going to a geography lesson once and the seating arrangements were re-arranged so boys had to sit next to girls. So this girl just starts drawing over my work and then rubs it out...at the end of the lesson I walk out and she's right next to me, apparently she now thinks I'm her boyfriend and holds my hand. LOL :)

thod

03-18-2009, 04:00 AM

Guys often have a hard time telling if a girl is just being friendly or is looking for more. They don't act because they are confused and don't want to make the mistake of destroying a good friendship.

Instead of asking him out, ask him "if he would like to take you for a coffee". That way you are getting your message across but allowing him to be in the male role of asker.

Trenchant1

03-18-2009, 04:33 AM

When I was a student, many years ago, I was interested in lots of girls but I was painfully shy. Rather than ask them out, I would put on a face that indicated complete lack of interest. What a fool I was. My aloof manner probably put everyone off. It was a defence mechanism. If I don't get involved, I don't get hurt. It sounds like the young man in question may be similar to how I was. Be direct but not too direct. If you're too direct, he will probably be put off. Like Groucho Marx said 'I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member'. If you seem too attracted to him, his own lack of self-worth will tell him that anyone who likes him must also be unworthy. It's a toughie. If he's a particularly good student, you could ask him to come over and help you with your work. That would make him feel good and give you the opportunity to spend some time alone with him. Damn, if I was 21-ish, I'd come over and take his place. Good luck.

uncon

03-18-2009, 06:47 AM

Honestly, this guy sounds like a dud. I would've gone out with any girl that showed me any interest and I think I actually DID. I never ripped anyone's shirt off that didn't want it. I think you're setting yourself up again.

Men aren't one extreme or the other necessarily. If this guy is throwing grass at his friend then get ready to find an action figure collection on his dresser. But then again, I've never been asked out by a woman - maybe I never gave them the chance to make that move. Now that I think of it, one girl made the "moves" on me in high school but I was kinda repulsed by her (even before this). That's weird - a memory just flashed - she was the friend of one of my teenage friend's girlfriend and she was wealthy. We went over there and drank booze in the plush basement while the parents were out golfing or country clubbing. Maybe she was slumming with me or something. We were robbing the wine cellar...

I can't offer much advice it seems. I can't understand these overly shy types. I mean, I'm pretty bashful but my libido was too large for me to be alone.

You mention groups a lot but then I saw the 5w6 in your profile and it all made sense. If you've waited even over 1 month for this then you have the patience of a nun compared to me.

raharu

03-18-2009, 08:45 AM

Just ask one of your friends, to tell one of his friends, that you want him to ask you out. I saw this stunt pulled many times in high school with success.

Right. It's best to avoid the whole "try to get his attention" thing. It'll probably end in tears, as you don't want to be so over the top that you give him the wrong impression. You don't know where that threshold is, so it's best to circumvent the entire thing, and send him a message through one of his friends.

As for myself? What it takes to get me to notice?

Not much. I'm very intuitive and perceptive, even for an INFP. I'm usually the one telling other people "You know, she really likes you" even after seemingly innocuous interactions. I can tell when people are into each other even if they aren't sure of it themselves. I don't make myself out to be a matchmaker - it's kind of an INFP thing to want to make judgment calls about these things - I'm aware of that and try to avoid it.

Shinqui

03-18-2009, 09:28 AM

How about blunt honesty? I like you, would you be interested in dating me? Sure, it sets you up for rejection, but the problem is immediately solved.

rwyatt365

03-18-2009, 09:33 AM

I've always feared ridicule more than rejection. A simple "No, not interested" is ok. Pointing and laughing causes severe discomfort.

ElstonGunn

03-18-2009, 10:54 AM

how much signs do you need to take notice?

If you were asking about me (Hey, I'm the only person I can speak for), then that would be the wrong question. I notice. At least, I notice sometimes. But then I'm not sure what it was that I noticed. Flirtation? Friendliness? Something else? ...And even if it was flirtation, the question then becomes what kind of flirtation? From what I hear, some people enjoy flirting for its own sake, which to me sounds like enjoying a root canal for its own sake, but people are different. So if I think I noticed flirtation, I'm never sure if that guess is right or not, but if it is, then is it being done to indicate an interest in developing a romantic relationship, or is it being done just for fun, or what?

My point is that you're not making yourself clear as far as I'd be concered if I were the guy you like. And if someone isn't going to be clear about her intentions, I don't act on any signals I receive, no matter how obvious you (or I, for that matter) think they are.

Why don't you just ask him out?

Maybe because it's more fun to confuse yourself and get worked up over not knowing if someone is interested in you or not.

Well, I have invited him to social gatherings that my group holds (picnic, e.t.c.) but none exclusively with him.

So you call him and ask if he'd like to spend time with you and a bunch of your friends? "Hey, want to tag along with a bunch of people you barely know and aren't comfortable around? You could be a third wheel. What do you say-- wanna come?" Sounds fun, doesn't it? :p

Another question (on a tangent) is... would you go out with a girl that you're not interested in, if she asked you out? Or is an initial interest an absolute requirement?

If she asked me directly? If she quit screwing around with hints and signals and middlemen? Absolutely, with the only exception being if I weren't single at that time.

That was a conscious decision on my part, since I'm so against women expressing their interest in implicit ways. If any of them would just say that they were interested, I'd respect that, and I'd have to at least give her a chance. I can't guarantee that it would be a good date or that a relationship would result from it, but I'd definitely think that she's worth spending an hour or two getting to know a little better, just because she actually did what I wish women would do.

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 11:34 AM

Also, if you're going that route, you might want to casually mention that you don't usually do something like that because usually girls don't do the asking.

I take this back. Instead of doing that, you could just casually mention that you and him should do xxx something sometime on day xxx. It could be something innocent like just lunch.

Or you can say you want to do something but there's no one do do it with. For example, "I really want to see that movie, but I don't know anyone to go see it with."

Another route, is to drop hints that you're available on a certain day. For example, "My roommate is out of town on Saturday and I don't have anyone to watch some porn with." j/k, but you understand my point.

As a last resort, if he really is shy and didn't catch any of that, then you should just go ahead and be the one that take charge and ask him. Movie example: A Beautiful Mind.

ClydeB

03-18-2009, 11:49 AM

Ok. I will add my two cents worth. Since I used to be one of those very very insecure guys. (Now I have moved up to just insecure)

Ask him if he is dating anyone. You never know, his 'friend' may be a male significant other.
Ask him out. Some place neutral like a coffee shop or outdoor park. See what he says.

WaeV

03-18-2009, 12:07 PM

Hey, if you want to know how thick we can get, look at my thread. :rolleyes:

She put her picture on my phone, put a "!" before her name on my contacts so it's first when alphabetized, got her friend to come up to me with her at the dance and sing "If you want to be my lover, you gotta get with my friends," her friends kept trying to get her to dance with me at the December dance, and when I was over her house for reasons not involving her, she came in the room and just sat there smiling at me.

And when I posted all of the above, I still wasn't sure about whether she liked me or not. I don't know what would have made it clearer.

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 12:12 PM

WaeV, that is dense. How about if she had touched your d*ck?

Gabrielle

03-18-2009, 12:15 PM

WaeV, That is dense. How about if she had touched your d*ck?

Jinxu added to this post, 1 minutes and 21 seconds later...

Maybe, subconsciously I wasn't really kidding. :wiseguy:

I can kinda see WaeV screaming "SEXUAL HARRASSMENT!" Maybe that's my overwored mind.

WaeV

03-18-2009, 12:24 PM

Lol, not unless she punched it or something I guess.

I started paying attention after the "If you want to be my lover, you gotta get with my friends" bit, but I was in no way certain.

boldbidder

03-18-2009, 12:57 PM

Gabrielle,

First off, don't take ANY advice from any of your single girlfriends, it will only end badly.

Secondly, from what you've described you haven't actually shown him that you're interested. You say you've spoken a few times, invited him to group gatherings, and you only call when on 'official business'. To the average introverted guy all this comes off as legit procedural like contact. Making small talk his painful so that certainly isn't gonna spark his interest, inviting him to group gatherings is equally painful (an I isn't gonna wanna be around a bunch of people he doesn't know), and always having a legitimate excuse call isn't gonna cut it either.

Introverted male's are invariably clueless at picking up on the subtleties that women feel like are so obvious so your best bet is to engage him in something HE finds interesting. Forego small talk, find out some subject he's passionate about and get him talking about that, nothing flatters an I guy faster than showing genuine (or feigned interest) in something they care about. Do that and he'll be part of your fan club in no time.

p.s. Did I mention to avoid listening to any and everything your single girlfriends have to say about the matter? Can't emphasize that enough.

llBradll

03-18-2009, 02:00 PM

I'll do a multipost help here.
To my belief, he is single... I've heard about his mum, his grandmother, his sister, and his father, but never about his girlfriend. None of has ever heard about his girlfriend either. To be honest, all of my friends are querying my sanity because apparently he rates a 4 out of 10 in attractiveness :PYou've probably formed attraction to his personality first which explains why the looks are overlooked

Well, here we're reaching the other problem. Ever since my first relationship I seem to make myself quite distant from my crush (although since this is my first since my first break-up, I can't really tell). I'd invite him to things, but as my friend said, "it's like he's an afterthought". We pass each other, but he doesn't say hi and neither do I. I don't talk to him privately. So no, there are no flirtations. He may want to flirt, but just be shy or unexperienced.

Hmm. I might try that... :) I am laughing 80% of the time though, so I'd have to stop to smile :P

Another question (on a tangent) is... would you go out with a girl that you're not interested in, if she asked you out? Or is an initial interest an absolute requirement? If she's fairly attractive and has a decent personality then I probably would.

I can kinda see WaeV screaming "SEXUAL HARRASSMENT!" Maybe that's my overwored mind. Before my first experience I was that clueless as well. My ex gf invited me to go out with another couple to see a movie. She thought double date while I thought hangout. She also made me a cd, introduced me to her sister, sat right beside me on a huge couch, and probably sent a couple thousand subtle body language cues that I didn't notice. I'm really convinced that this guy is clueless. Besides, if he didn't like you and he knew what was going on he would have withdrawn by now.

nacht

03-18-2009, 02:26 PM

Why don't you just ask him out? (Ok, just remembered that "ask out" in highschool can mean "Will you be my boy/girlfriend?" and not "Will you go on a date with me?") So, just ask him to a movie.

^ This.

I don't really see what the big deal is with asking someone out. It is blatantly hypocritical for you to want him to notice you and then make the first move, while refusing to do the same with him.

Even if you "want someone who pursues you," I would start looking inward on that since that "being pursued" feeling rarely lasts more than a few months. If you are looking for a long term relationship, it pays to be willing to take initiative.

So, go up. Say "hi, would you like to grab coffee/go out to dinner/go to a dance/go to a movie/have wild, passionate sex right here?" Then, regardless of the answer, you know and can move on.

nacht added to this post, 9 minutes and 30 seconds later...

Secondly, from what you've described you haven't actually shown him that you're interested. You say you've spoken a few times, invited him to group gatherings, and you only call when on 'official business'. To the average introverted guy all this comes off as legit procedural like contact. Making small talk his painful so that certainly isn't gonna spark his interest, inviting him to group gatherings is equally painful (an I isn't gonna wanna be around a bunch of people he doesn't know), and always having a legitimate excuse call isn't gonna cut it either.

I'll throw on top of this that women tend to communicate substantially more with body language than men do, and are generally much better at picking it up.

I read an article some years ago that talked about this in some depth and gave the example of a guy who asks his wife if it is okay if he goes out with friends tonight. She says "Sure." while leaning against a doorframe with her arms crossed, tapping her foot. The guy wonders why he gets yelled at when he gets back, the woman wonders why she was ignored.

There was a case where a young woman was having issues with her boyfriend and so she went to a friend of mine. My friend asked "did you talk with him about it?" She said "yes, absolutely, many times!" So my fried gave her a tape recorder and said "next time you talk about it, use this."

She came back with the tape recorder after she had talked with her boyfriend about it, so they played the recording... and the issue was never directly mentioned. Not even once.

Long story short, the OP asked:

how much signs do you need to take notice?

Eyelash batting? Stripping naked?

Both of these are physical actions, they involve body language.

Try using words. For your average male--let alone an introverted male or especially someone with a strong Ni function--the words will communicate more effectively and with a lot less ambiguity than stripping naked would.

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 08:04 PM

^ This.
I don't really see what the big deal is with asking someone out. It is blatantly hypocritical for you to want him to notice you and then make the first move, while refusing to do the same with him.

I think it's fear of rejection is why many girls take the passive role. Many girls get around this by dropping hints and sending out signals.

There are a few that are aggressive and looking back, I know one was a textbook ENTJ. Personality type may have an influence.

Jinxu added to this post, 9 minutes and 41 seconds later...

the words will communicate more effectively and with a lot less ambiguity than stripping naked would.

I support the stripping naked method.

nacht

03-18-2009, 08:35 PM

I think it's fear of rejection is why many girls take the passive role. Many girls get around this by dropping hints and sending out signals.

Thus leaving it to the men to take the active role, who have the exact same fears of rejection and cope with it in their own ways.

The defensive behavior is not functional in nature. The solution still comes down to "ask him out, see what he says."

I support the stripping naked method.

As the joke goes:

Two engineering students were walking across campus when one said, "Where did you get such a great bike?"

The second engineer replied, "Well, I was walking along yesterday minding my own business when a beautiful woman rode up on this bike. She threw the bike to the ground, took off all her clothes and said, "Take what you want."

The second engineer nodded approvingly, "Good choice; the clothes probably wouldn't have fit."

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 09:16 PM

The defensive behavior is not functional in nature.

It is functional in an evolutionary sense in that it weeds out the weak from the strong. The men who can muster up the courage to ask a woman out will be the one with the higher odds of getting lay and passing their genes on.

as the joke goes

humorous. haven't read this one yet.

nacht

03-18-2009, 09:28 PM

It is functional in an evolutionary sense in that it weeds out the weak from the strong. The men who can muster up the courage to ask a woman out will be the one with the higher odds of getting lay and passing their genes on.

Except that "strength" has absolutely zilch to do with "will you ask someone out." Confidence yes, but in a modern society we are discussing what comes down to a trivial measure of confidence and a poor overall measure of fitness when looking for longer term relationships.

Regardless of what ancestors who were closer to chimps may have done, or our ancestors who lived in profoundly different circumstances, we aren't them. We are talking about humans, now, predominantly in the Core countries. In a modern society a woman who is more assertive with these issues is more likely to get the person she wants. Full stop. That is the only form of functionality that matters, because we are not our ancestors.

Though if we want to talk about previous cultures, marriage proposals in Iceland around the turn of the millennia were initiated by men (to the father of the bride), but proposals for sex were frequently initiated by women. Even granting you the nature of the argument, trying to pin this on evolutionary reasons is questionable at best.

The arguments from evolution (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) get really tiring.

firebee

03-18-2009, 09:34 PM

It is functional in an evolutionary sense in that it weeds out the weak from the strong. The men who can muster up the courage to ask a woman out will be the one with the higher odds of getting lay and passing their genes on.

Oh please. The fact that something is theoretically adaptive for cavewoman Trogette in her cavewoman bar, does not make it adaptive or anything even resembling advisable for non-caveperson me in non-caveperson bar.

We have ginormous brains for a reason; that reason would be so that we can figure out how to get laid in our actual environment rather than be constrained by ingrained behaviors. And just because a behavior has its roots in an evolutionarily-sound mechanism does not make it healthy (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 09:40 PM

I disagree. We are still the same as our ancestor, except we have a more developed neo-cortex, the area of the brain that controls rationing. We still have the same emotional and instinctual area of our brain as our ancestors. I believe for mating, human use more of their primitive brains than the rational area.

Confidence is important and you will need some of that if you are gonna ask a girl out. A girl can't say yes if you don't ask her. And you can't get lay if a girl doesn't say yes.

Jinxu added to this post, 5 minutes and 47 seconds later...

E
Though if we want to talk about previous cultures, marriage proposals in Iceland around the turn of the millennia were initiated by men (to the father of the bride), but proposals for sex were frequently initiated by women. Even granting you the nature of the argument, trying to pin this on evolutionary reasons is questionable at best. .

Take note that society has not always been like this. In the past it was men who initiated things. Today the trend is women are becoming more aggressive while men are becoming more passive. Another way to say this is that women are taking the masculine role while men are becoming more feminine.

reb

03-18-2009, 09:41 PM

Gabrielle,

all this discussion; no action?

i confess, out of 20 women that asked me to a movie, i would likely try to determine which ones were whackos that might want a relationship out of the deal. this young fella likely has not had all of the 'r' word he can take, as have i.

just go ask him for 'dinner or a cup of coffee or a movie' or even' i'd like to talk to you someplace private to see what you're really like' and see what he says. if he acts like he's confused, tell him 'look, i like what i've seen of your personality and i would like to spend some time with you as friends.' if he doesn't want that...then he doesn't want nuthin'. give up and go find more fertile ground. jeez...i dint read al lthe posts, but this is too much messin' around...just get to it and find out. if you don't have the guts to find out, then you may as well continue your fantasy, cause that's all it is.

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 09:46 PM

I have to post this. What's the deal with the men purse?:

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Well, actually it's a murse - a man purse. Produced by Louis Vuitton, these little things are quite popular amongst men - mostly metrosexuals (???)

nacht

03-18-2009, 09:53 PM

I disagree. We are still the same as our ancestor, except we have a more developed neo-cortex, the area of the brain that controls rationing.

I think you mean "reasoning."

We are not "the same" as our ancestors. Any socio-biological arguments aside (and there are quite a few--I don't spend my time plowing a field or hunting aurochs, and thus have a very different body type from my ancestors), we live in a radically different society. My ancestors were, among other things, pillaging others when they got bored and doing things like attempting to overthrow James VI (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Egil (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.ímsson) once is said to have remarked "Let us go back to the farm and acquit ourselves like true warriors: kill everyone we can catch and take all the valuables we can carry." Clearly his society and our society have different priority systems, and it is within our society that we must live.

We still have the same emotional and instinctual area of our brain as our ancestors. I believe for mating, human use more of their primitive brains than the rational area.

First, your logic on that this is evolutionary is questionable at best (as indicated above). There may be precursor functions which are evolutionary, but this specific incident is highly questionable.

Second, even if we do use the more instinctual areas of our brain, that is no reason not to work to overcome it because, as I indicated, in our society it is not functional. Especially when looking for a long term relationship.

It is a poor indicator of confidence if that is what you are looking for, it is a poor indicator of long-term compatibility, and is a poor indicator of interest. Overall, I'm not seeing the advantage.

Confidence is important and you will need some of that if you are gonna ask a girl out. A girl can't say yes if you don't ask her. And you can't get lay if a girl doesn't say yes.

I can and have gotten laid from a girl initiating things, thank you.

nacht added to this post, 0 minutes and 58 seconds later...

Take note that society has not always been like this. In the past it was men who initiated things. Today the trend is women are becoming more aggressive while men are becoming more passive. Another way to say this is that women are taking the masculine role while men are becoming more feminine.

When I said around the turn of the millennia, I meant around the turn of the *first* millennia, a thousand years ago.

firebee

03-18-2009, 09:55 PM

Here's why men today are much, much more masculine:

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Or possibly why assuming one culture's standards for masculine and feminine behavior are how it is, was, and will ever be everywhere in the world is a bad idea. I'm not sure.

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 10:07 PM

Here's why men today are much, much more masculine:

It's not only about if one society has more masculine men than the other. The other main point is that society cycles between men being more masculine and men being more feminine as time goes. The same goes with women. The key word is "cycles."

Jinxu added to this post, 4 minutes and 57 seconds later...

Second, even if we do use the more instinctual areas of our brain, that is no reason not to work to overcome it because, as I indicated, in our society it is not functional. Especially when looking for a long term relationship.

Let's test your theory. Every guy have an idea mate look-wise. Give us your description (or a pic) with hair color, eye color, skin color, etc. And then give us your rational reasons why you like that particular looks. Another question, why do you like a certain personality type over the other?

My point is that our primitive mind still have more influence on us then we are aware of.

Jinxu added to this post, 3 minutes and 51 seconds later...

I can and have gotten laid from a girl initiating things, thank you.

I was speaking in general. I've never said anything about that a girl can't do the initiating.

nacht

03-18-2009, 10:11 PM

It's not only about if one society has more masculine men than the other. The other main point is that society cycles between men being more masculine and men being more feminine as time goes. The same goes with women. The key word is "cycles."

I think you don't understand basic gender theory. What is "masculine" or "feminine" changes. In some societies it was expected that the woman approach the man for sex, in some it goes the other way. Regardless, gender is not a linear scale on which you have "female" on one end and "male" on the other.

Let's test your theory. Every guy have an idea mate look-wise. Give us your description (or a pic) with hair color, eye color, skin color, etc. And then give me your rational reasons why you like that particular looks. Another question, why do you like a certain personality type over the other?

My point is that our primitive mind still have more influence on us then we are aware of.

Waiting for a guy to approach you because "evolutionarily he should be asking you out, not the other way around" 1) shows fallacious reasoning and 2) is maladaptive, because it is a poor filter for anything at all.

My "type" is a function of sexual arousal, which is not especially maladaptive unless I hold to it too rigidly (which, again, enters the rational function).

nacht added to this post, 1 minutes and 14 seconds later...

I was speaking in general. I've never said anything about that a girl can't do the initiating.

"Speaking in general" is a good way to be wrong when giving advice to a female who wants a guy to approach her.

She wants to go on a date with him, therefore she should ask him out.

Jinxu

03-18-2009, 10:19 PM

alphawolf

03-19-2009, 12:14 AM

I think it's fear of rejection is why many girls take the passive role. Many girls get around this by dropping hints and sending out signals.

It's not fear of rejection. Even the ugly women are being approached by men. Decent looking ones are being approached several times a day. Good looking ones are being approached non-stop. Why in the hell would a woman need to take an active role, when she gets approached anyway?

Any woman can find a man. Any man can not find a woman. If a woman takes a weak man (romantically shy), things can go very badly because he is so scared of losing her for fear that he can not possibly get another. By badly, I mean emotional or physical abuse, controlling, etc.

Bottom line: Women should leave men who lack an acceptable level of self-confidence and self-esteem alone.

nacht

03-19-2009, 12:19 AM

I think you are not aware on how much society is cyclical in nature. Go here if you want to learn why:

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Maybe, you are looking at this from an INTJ viewpoint. Most people may not be like you in that they pick their mate based on logic.

Vague handwaving about one particular and poorly validated psychological theory does not an argument make. Even if we were to accept your cyclic argument at face value, it doesn't apply to a single thing I've said.

Neither does the MBTI.

I wonder why you're getting personal over this? I've never said that she shouldn't ask.

I haven't gotten personal over anything here.

I did, however, directly address the OPs question in the frame of the OPs situation, and you disagreed, it is rather natural to assume that you were disagreeing with the advice given to the OP.

Jinxu

03-19-2009, 12:27 AM

It's not fear of rejection. Even the ugly women are being approached by men. Decent looking ones are being approached several times a day. Good looking ones are being approached non-stop. Why in the hell would a woman need to take an active role, when she gets approached anyway?

I think there's a difference between being approach by average men and approaching the guy that a girl has a crush on. People tend to get nervous around people they like versus people they are neutral with.

Jinxu added to this post, 4 minutes and 44 seconds later...

Vague handwaving about one particular and poorly validated psychological theory does not an argument make. Even if we were to accept your cyclic argument at face value, it doesn't apply to a single thing I've said.

Personally, I didn't understand what you said because it wasn't clear what you were trying to say. Your main argument I believe was that people today are different from the past. From that I am assuming you mean more civilized. With that I agree and disagree. We have a different environment, but we're still using the same brain as our ancestor.

My cyclic argument applies because society does not change randomly.

From what I've picked up about you, you seem to understand relationships from a more logical point of view. This is expected if you're a high T, but the reality is that human relationship are not 100% logical. Things like emotions are involved, and emotions also aren't entirely logical. If you really want to understand them, you have to use your F function. T may be good at analyzing objects, but F is much better with people.

NovemberRain

03-19-2009, 02:50 AM

Guys are not always as oblivious as many girls think they usually are... (oopps)
If you are ignored, just move on. It simply means he's not interested. Personal point of view... :bucktooth:

I have girls who crush on me and yeah I KNOW ABOUT IT... but yeah, I can be very tolerant (and impassive) with whatever they do to get my attention (because I'm not interested)... :wideeyed:
But if its a girl whom I have a crush on... woots... I'll try to initiate a conversation in any way that is possible or try to get in contact with her!
Ooops.
:shy:

JohnDoe

03-19-2009, 03:56 AM

It's not fear of rejection. Even the ugly women are being approached by men. Decent looking ones are being approached several times a day. Good looking ones are being approached non-stop. Why in the hell would a woman need to take an active role, when she gets approached anyway?

Any woman can find a man. Any man can not find a woman. If a woman takes a weak man (romantically shy), things can go very badly because he is so scared of losing her for fear that he can not possibly get another. By badly, I mean emotional or physical abuse, controlling, etc.

Bottom line: Women should leave men who lack an acceptable level of self-confidence and self-esteem alone.

Sorry I gotta disagree here. Sometimes people have a tendency to think that "oh hey if I start really subtly flirting with my friend who I've known for months they are going to figure out that I want them to ask me out." If hes already used to thinking of you as a friend, you need to be aggressive. Ask him on a date (AND USE THAT WORD), go kiss him (seriously!), or physically start flirting with him (and not just body language here, I'm talking unambiguous "flirting" contact). Do something that unambiguously makes him understand that your not just having fun with a friend.

Edit: The point here is that if he thinks the way you are acting now is "friendly" then you need to raise whatever your doing to the level that its significantly over the top of your normal friendly behavior. This is how you shift peoples perceptions. SHOCK AND AWE. You need to be using SHOCK AND AWE.

alphawolf

03-19-2009, 05:12 AM

Sorry I gotta disagree here. Sometimes people have a tendency to think that "oh hey if I start really subtly flirting with my friend who I've known for months they are going to figure out that I want them to ask me out." If hes already used to thinking of you as a friend, you need to be aggressive. Ask him on a date (AND USE THAT WORD), go kiss him (seriously!), or physically start flirting with him (and not just body language here, I'm talking unambiguous "flirting" contact). Do something that unambiguously makes him understand that your not just having fun with a friend.

If a woman completely eliminates the fear of rejection and risk taking, this is not good for the man as a "man". It may seem to help him immediately as a "person with a name", but it won't help him as a "man". A man has to help himself, and have the confidence in himself to take a risk and not have his ego shattered if he gets rejected. Only then is he confident enough to take on the daily challenges of a healthy romantic relationship.

I guess you figured out that my black magic post was really intended to demonstrate the problem.

How much does it take to get me to notice if a long-time female acquaintance suddenly becomes interested in me? If she starts acting strange for no known reason, then I'll know. For example, if we were having lunch together, and she just started smiling at me and looking into my eyes without saying anything, I ask her "what?" and she doesn't answer, closes her eyes just keeps smiling takes a deep breath and exhales slowly, well that is like a big HELLO!!! HERE I AM!!! BUST A MOVE ALREADY, FOOL!!!

zibber

03-19-2009, 05:42 AM

Why don't you just ask him out? (Ok, just remembered that "ask out" in highschool can mean "Will you be my boy/girlfriend?" and not "Will you go on a date with me?") So, just ask him to a movie.

I fully second this.

I mean, what, you insist that he asks you? You like him, so ask him out.

Well, I have invited him to social gatherings that my group holds (picnic, e.t.c.) but none exclusively with him. I have his number but I generally don't call without a valid reason. Spontaneity is not my thing...

What do you want from this situation?

Another question (on a tangent) is... would you go out with a girl that you're not interested in, if she asked you out? Or is an initial interest an absolute requirement?

What does that matter? If there is no interest, will a date really make that much sense?

I'm just throwing this out there, but it seems like you are just, I don't know, bored and looking for some fun. From the way you talk about this guy, it isn't exactly clear that you're sincerely interested. You can use flirty tricks from a website and maybe get some reaction from the guy, but with tricks like that, tricks, it is irrelevant whether he sincerely likes you. If he does, you'd be setting one hell of a terrible precedent by acting so contrivedly.

Get with the program and figure out what you want. Do you want to play around with this guy (like the girl did with (to!) WaeV), or do you want something real?

I think you don't understand basic gender theory. What is "masculine" or "feminine" changes. In some societies it was expected that the woman approach the man for sex, in some it goes the other way. Regardless, gender is not a linear scale on which you have "female" on one end and "male" on the other.

You are a breath of fresh air, nacht.

Bobert

03-19-2009, 05:56 AM

I was dumb when it came to picking up on signals. I practically needed a written invitation and verbal confirmation.

Point is, some people are slow to realize signals or misinterpret them.

To get his attention, talk to him about his interests. If he gives you the cold shoulder, then he's probably not interested or too nervous to engage the conversation. See how he talks to and behaves around others.

JohnDoe

03-19-2009, 07:08 AM

If a woman completely eliminates the fear of rejection and risk taking, this is not good for the man as a "man". It may seem to help him immediately as a "person with a name", but it won't help him as a "man". A man has to help himself, and have the confidence in himself to take a risk and not have his ego shattered if he gets rejected. Only then is he confident enough to take on the daily challenges of a healthy romantic relationship.

I guess you figured out that my black magic post was really intended to demonstrate the problem.

How much does it take to get me to notice if a long-time female acquaintance suddenly becomes interested in me? If she starts acting strange for no known reason, then I'll know. For example, if we were having lunch together, and she just started smiling at me and looking into my eyes without saying anything, I ask her "what?" and she doesn't answer, closes her eyes just keeps smiling takes a deep breath and exhales slowly, well that is like a big HELLO!!! HERE I AM!!! BUST A MOVE ALREADY, FOOL!!!

The problem is two fold though: there are people who frequently act like that, and arn't interested in anyone. If the baselines wrong, your advice doesn't work very well. And the case you described is pretty obvious. All too often people think they are being obvious and they arn't. Given we have an INTJ talking about how they are flirting non verbally with a friend, turn the flirting up may be good advice here :P

Vagrant

03-19-2009, 12:44 PM

After 5 months of being unsuccessful, you should drop him and move along. If he hasn't noticed you, he doesn't like you.

Agreed.

If he's really that clueless, it means he's not trying to read the signs with you. Which means he's not interested.

Although as a guy, I wouldn't mind a girl sitting in my lap out of nowhere. >.>

(that said though, cluelessness can only carry a guy so far for not being able to see signs. I pronounce myself as being clueless socially, but I can see clear as day when a girl is trying to flirt with me.)

Gabrielle

03-20-2009, 02:20 AM

I discussed this with my friend who happened to be there when a few of us (including him) were sitting together on the grass the other day. I was sitting next to him, and (get this) the flirtation was apparently zilch.

On the other hand, his social etiquette is pretty much non-existent, which is slowly turning me off. So perhaps it's a good thing that we never went any farther.

Imposcillator

03-20-2009, 03:18 AM

How about blunt honesty? I like you, would you be interested in dating me? Sure, it sets you up for rejection, but the problem is immediately solved.

Finally some sane advice.

Why did everyone pass this by?

Introverts don't do well with flirting. At least not if it's long-winded and too subtle. I've often been told I'm oblivious to who likes me and who doesn't, and in some of these cases I've discovered it myself (sometimes a bit too late).

I'm all for blunt honesty, whether I'm rejecting or accepting someone. If I reject them bluntly they might hate me but I don't lead them on (this has made a few girls cry but oh well...gotta break some eggs), and if I accept/tell them I like them back in the same way they are pleasantly surprised and we don't have to wait to be together any longer.

I'd like to be treated the same way but women are usually not into the whole "straightforward" thing. No feminist hate please. Just my observations.

JohnDoe

03-20-2009, 04:50 AM

Agreed.

If he's really that clueless, it means he's not trying to read the signs with you. Which means he's not interested.

Although as a guy, I wouldn't mind a girl sitting in my lap out of nowhere. >.>

(that said though, cluelessness can only carry a guy so far for not being able to see signs. I pronounce myself as being clueless socially, but I can see clear as day when a girl is trying to flirt with me.)

Confirmation bias. I'm sure you notice 100% of the girls who you notice are trying to flirt with you. The real test is do you notice every girl who is trying to flirt with you that your friends notice.

El Ganso

03-20-2009, 09:30 AM

So, go up. Say "hi, would you like to grab coffee/go out to dinner/go to a dance/go to a movie/have wild, passionate sex right here?" Then, regardless of the answer, you know and can move on.

I am going to try the last one today. <<crosses fingers>>

El Ganso added to this post, 2 minutes and 47 seconds later...

Seriously though, the physical contact barrier is the key to shy guys (Being a recovering shy-guy myself). If you break that barrier and his tune doesn't change, there's nothing there.

Gabrielle

03-20-2009, 02:13 PM

Apparently I got roped into going to a park for picnic with him and couple of other friends. That is, if he replies. We'll see how it goes :P

In the meanwhile, I'll keep you updated!

Vagrant

03-21-2009, 11:47 AM

Confirmation bias. I'm sure you notice 100% of the girls who you notice are trying to flirt with you. The real test is do you notice every girl who is trying to flirt with you that your friends notice.

Actually, yes.

As long as I'm not interested in the girl (not just lookwise), I can accurately tell if they are flirting with me.

rain

03-21-2009, 02:09 PM

You can always say,
Hey, do you want to grab a bite to eat?

Then IF he says yes, then you can accidently brush up against him, bat eyelashes, touch his arm, etc.

If he's unresponsive, it means he doesn't like you. If he's responsive, then he might like you. Once you ask him out, he'll get the point that you fancy him.

PhillyFanWA

03-21-2009, 03:55 PM

Actually, yes.

As long as I'm not interested in the girl (not just lookwise), I can accurately tell if they are flirting with me.

So you never get the clue like a month or a year later? Looking back when I was younger, there were definitely things that I have missed!

Red Queen

03-21-2009, 03:58 PM

p.s. Did I mention to avoid listening to any and everything your single girlfriends have to say about the matter? Can't emphasize that enough.[/QUOTE]

Interesting point you have there, boldbidder. If they're SINGLE, what's their advice worth?

Gabrielle

03-21-2009, 03:58 PM

Okay. Updates.

I am the one who thought up of the picnic (and I have all the contact numbers)... so I am trying to get people to get back to me whether they're coming or not, so I don't have to wait for a long time before heading off. unfortunately he is the only one who hasn't answered. I had to call him three times before he picked up the phone, then one of our phones dropped the call. Since then, nada. I'd think it's a common courtesy to at least return the call if it was dropped, if the other person didn't return it. But nope, nothing.

This has happened before. I think it's time for me to move on...

mentor

03-21-2009, 04:00 PM

i love it when young women flirt with me.. :)

HeyZeus

03-21-2009, 04:36 PM

then one of our phones dropped the call. Since then, nada. I'd think it's a common courtesy to at least return the call if it was dropped, if the other person didn't return it. But nope, nothing.

This has happened before. I think it's time for me to move on...

The initiator should call back if the phone drops off.

Be exhaustive. Make the creep respond yes or no to the invite. He does not sound like the type to pass an opportunity to throw grass!

PhillyFanWA

03-21-2009, 05:11 PM

nacht

03-21-2009, 05:13 PM

Out of curiosity, why does it seem like every single one of your friends and even random people online knew about this before he did?

The initiator should call back if the phone drops off.

Barring an odd circumstance on their end, absolutely.

Gabrielle

03-21-2009, 05:43 PM

PhillyFanWA

03-21-2009, 08:38 PM

Well... I have texted him to rsvp. I think I've done enough. I guess I'm scared that I'd look like obsessing over him (although another voice tells me that he's oblivious and he won't notice...). If he can't bother to reply, that's not my problem. I don't think the phone's model would have anything to do his claims of "dropped texts"... does it?

Sigh, from my personal experience if you truly want someone, then it's not something that's easily shrugged off. However considering that you're asking people's advice from an internet board about him, you might be just a bit obsessed. :)

Edit: also when you finally do get to date them, they become huge disappointments romantically most of the time. These days I guess I'm conditioned not to have high school crushes on anyone anymore.

Jinxu

03-21-2009, 11:32 PM

This has happened before. I think it's time for me to move on...

I'm not really 100% sure what's going on. I would have to see it to get the full picture. But from what you have said, the best plan now would be to move on. Maybe find another guy. You never know, maybe the new guy will be better. Maybe your crush will start getting jealous. If he doesn't then you will know. This would be a win-win plan for you as far as I can see.

Think of dating like shopping for a brand new car. The best way to do it is to make a list of the top 5 cars you are considering. Research them. Test drive them if you need to. As you are doing your research, you apply the method of elimination to scratch off the ones that don't meet your standard until you get down to one. That one will then be your new bf (or car).

On second thought this idea is a lot like the shows: The Bachelor or The Bachelorette.

Note: Getting drunk in a bar helps in times like this. Dressing up also helps too.

Jinxu added to this post, 164 minutes and 12 seconds later...

P.S. how attractive are you? Maybe your looks are scaring him off and he may not think he has a chance.

Also, obsessing over one person and one outcome tend to disappoint you. This is from experience. For some reason what you plan never seems to happen. And the best things that do happen, you never expected it to.

rain

03-22-2009, 12:26 AM

Jinxu

03-22-2009, 02:32 AM

Here's an interesting article. I haven't read it but it may help the OP:

Inside The Mind Of Guys Who Are Shy And Inexperienced With Women
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Gabrielle

03-22-2009, 04:48 AM

How attractive am I? Well, that's really up to who's looking at me, but everyone I asked (females and males, dead honesty required) have stated that on scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being unable to look at and 10 being Angelina Jolie/Cheryl Cole/Gisele Bundchen, I rate around 8~9. I do find a lot of guys looking at me on the street during the summer (in the winter I'm always wearing a hat, obscuring half my face).

Unfortunately looks-wise I tend to go for boyish slender types, and he is the only one that fits the category in my school.

ElstonGunn

03-25-2009, 11:08 AM

A man has to help himself, and have the confidence in himself to take a risk and not have his ego shattered if he gets rejected. Only then is he confident enough to take on the daily challenges of a healthy romantic relationship.

Whenever I hear or read something like this, I can't help but wonder why so many people think that women don't need confidence in a relationship.

Going one step further, I don't understand why it's okay for women to say, "I like this guy, so he should ask me out," but if I say, "I want a Ferrari, so you should buy one for me," it's unreasonable.

...on scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being unable to look at and 10 being Angelina Jolie/Cheryl Cole/Gisele Bundchen...

That's the funny thing about the 1 to 10 scale. I don't think any of those women are especially attractive. I recognize that they have some aesthetic qualities that are kind of nice, but they really don't do much of anything for me.

JohnDoe

03-25-2009, 01:37 PM

Think of dating like shopping for a brand new car. The best way to do it is to make a list of the top 5 cars you are considering. Research them. Test drive them if you need to. As you are doing your research, you apply the method of elimination to scratch off the ones that don't meet your standard until you get down to one. That one will then be your new bf (or car).

What a romantic.

Kellie

03-25-2009, 01:50 PM

ElstonGunn

03-25-2009, 05:25 PM

Watch the movie He's Just Not that Into You...it will change your life

You need a movie to tell you that the idea that there was nothing you could have done to improve your situation is a lot easier to accept than the idea that you screwed yourself out of something you wanted?

Gabrielle

03-25-2009, 08:01 PM

Watch the movie He's Just Not that Into You...it will change your life

Coming from personal experience?

AS for Jinxu's car theory - I didn't know people picked their partners in other ways.

Anyway, revision time has officially arrived and I have put this problem on hold.

qwerty123

03-25-2009, 08:43 PM

Gabrielle

03-25-2009, 10:12 PM

If you tried to hang out with us significantly more than normal, then we would notice. If a girl is going out of the way and there is no clear other motive (money/class projects/more attractive friend access) then the guy should probably get the hint. If attempts are repeatedly denied, then you have your answer. If he agrees to hang out a lot and still doesn't "like" you, then maybe question him if he can't even stand up for himself a little bit.

Maybe?

I haven't done that, now that I observe myself. My friends who were watching stated that our interactions were strictly "friendly", and not much else. Maybe I should single him out... I generally don't invite just one friend unless they're one of my really close friends, and all three are females. Otherwise we just hang out in a group.

drumdance

03-25-2009, 10:27 PM

Move on. When I was in college I remember a girl came up to me in class and apologized for having been rude to me at a party. I didn't even remember seeing her there. In retrospect I realized that she had been trying to catch my attention in class and at social functions but I wasn't interested. Her "apology" was actually another attempt to catch my attention.

That sounds arrogant, but then again I'm INTJ... :)

qwerty123

03-26-2009, 08:05 AM

I haven't done that, now that I observe myself. My friends who were watching stated that our interactions were strictly "friendly", and not much else. Maybe I should single him out... I generally don't invite just one friend unless they're one of my really close friends, and all three are females. Otherwise we just hang out in a group.

Well it never hurts to try, at least you'll have an answer. Not knowing and guarding hope only lasts for so long. In economic terms, there are decreasing marginal returns. When it gets warmer out studying outside together is a good alternative to coffee shop.

Move on. When I was in college I remember a girl came up to me in class and apologized for having been rude to me at a party. I didn't even remember seeing her there. In retrospect I realized that she had been trying to catch my attention in class and at social functions but I wasn't interested. Her "apology" was actually another attempt to catch my attention.

Ahh in infamous: you seemed upset, or I didn't mean to come across like that. Several girls have emailed me (yes emailed.. don't have facebook) and apologized for this or that. Usually it's for something I've put little thought into. At first I was like WTF? Then I was like ohhh... Future interactions are known to correlate with large increases in batting averages. I know that's bad, but it's been a while since any of those shenanigans.

Another observed positive is for a girl to find you mysterious. Not creepy.. it's a fine line.

Kellie

03-26-2009, 10:20 AM

You need a movie to tell you that the idea that there was nothing you could have done to improve your situation is a lot easier to accept than the idea that you screwed yourself out of something you wanted?

Have you seen it?

Kellie added to this post, 2 minutes and 59 seconds later...

Coming from personal experience?

AS for Jinxu's car theory - I didn't know people picked their partners in other ways.

Anyway, revision time has officially arrived and I have put this problem on hold.

I experienced the book first, and all the "what ifs" that I used melted away until only the truth was left. But the movie emphasized the most helpful parts.

ElstonGunn

03-26-2009, 11:10 AM

Have you seen it?

No, so my opinion doesn't really count. But if you can judge a book by its title, author, and reviews, then I'm not too impressed. Although I should also point out that I have a personal bias against most romantic advice geared toward women on the subject of how to get men-- the vast majority of it would be horrible advice if the subject were "How to get Elston Gunn." So yet again, my opinion doesn't count for much, since I'm evidently part of a statistically insignificant minority.

Kellie

03-27-2009, 09:05 AM

No, so my opinion doesn't really count. But if you can judge a book by its title, author, and reviews, then I'm not too impressed. Although I should also point out that I have a personal bias against most romantic advice geared toward women on the subject of how to get men-- the vast majority of it would be horrible advice if the subject were "How to get Elston Gunn." So yet again, my opinion doesn't count for much, since I'm evidently part of a statistically insignificant minority.

ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. avatar and this response go so well together. It's not how to GET men it's how to know when he doesn't want you. Thanks for being humble about not having read it before. It's pretty funny when you read some of the letters the girls mail to the authors! Kind of a comedy on relationships :cheesy:

Harmony

03-27-2009, 09:12 AM

ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. avatar and this response go so well together. It's not how to GET men it's how to know when he doesn't want you. Thanks for being humble about not having read it before. It's pretty funny when you read some of the letters the girls mail to the authors! Kind of a comedy on relationships :cheesy:

Yeah, I read the book and wanted to argue with it... But when things started matching up so perfectly with the book, I faced the facts... In rare occasions there is an except to the "rules" in the book.

Kellie

03-27-2009, 09:15 AM

Yeah, I read the book and wanted to argue with it... But when things started matching up so perfectly with the book, I faced the facts... In rare occasions there is an except to the "rules" in the book.

My best friend pulls it out and reads a chapter to me whenever I get a little too "unrealistic" :p

Harmony

03-27-2009, 09:17 AM

My best friend pulls it out and reads a chapter to me whenever I get a little too "unrealistic" :p

I would have to walk away grumbling... I really did try to argue with certain things... And then when I finally accepted the guy wasn't interested, I was thinking... Damn... The book was right! Curse you!

mnmeq

03-27-2009, 10:06 AM

I'm almost totally oblivious to and unable to accurately assess romantic intent and sometimes just not interested. Also occasionally I'll figure it out, be sufficiently interested but be unsure of how to proceed. Someone grabbed my ass at the bar a few weeks ago. That's about what it takes.

JTG1984

03-27-2009, 10:39 AM

Kensington

03-30-2009, 09:40 PM

The guy should not always have to be the one to make the first move. For me anyway it would make dating a lot less stressful.

Plane Stress

03-31-2009, 04:30 AM

The guy should not always have to be the one to make the first move. For me anyway it would make dating a lot less stressful.

Haha, good luck getting a woman to listen to that :p.

ElstonGunn

03-31-2009, 06:56 AM

I would have to walk away grumbling... I really did try to argue with certain things... And then when I finally accepted the guy wasn't interested, I was thinking... Damn... The book was right! Curse you!

I'm almost totally oblivious to and unable to accurately assess romantic intent and sometimes just not interested. Also occasionally I'll figure it out, be sufficiently interested but be unsure of how to proceed. Someone grabbed my ass at the bar a few weeks ago. That's about what it takes.

What are the odds that any given individual is going to be interested in you at the time that you're trying to figure out if he is or not? That's the main thing that bugs me about romantic advice. To me, it seems to be built on the idea that everyone has a definite opinion on everything and everyone, and you can figure that idea out easily. When you're dealing with people, I think that one of the most risky things you can do is assume that they clearly and objectively know what they're doing and what they're thinking in black-and-white terms (such as "he's just not that into you" as a purely random example).

That also sounds like it's putting the blame outside of yourself. "He's not interested. There's nothing I can do about it." It might be a minor difference, but I think it's a lot better to say that he's not doing the specific things that you require from him, so you've lost interest. It's a lot easier to watch what someone does on the level of the most basic description of actions than it is to correctly and definitively figure out that person's reasons for doing things. "He didn't ask me out, so I've lost interest in him" makes infinitely more sense to me than "He didn't ask me out, so he must not like me (because there are no other conceivable reasons for a man to not ask me out-- not to mention that it's always his responsibility to make the first move and I'm not willing to do it myself, nevermind that by my own logic that means that I'm not interested in him)."

It also bothers me that the advice that's given on a wide scale (like in a book or a movie or an advice column) is inherently impersonal. So some oblivious oaf like me or mnmeq (;)) is being judged by the same basic standard as Don Juan or Cassanova. That doesn't seem fair to anyone involved. It tries to tap into the non-existent "male opinion." There are three billion opinions of individual males. Granted, there is a lot of overlap between them, but being a male doesn't necessitate any one specific opinion or preference. Even if there is some general overlap, the specifics can vary widely. Are all men baseball fans, and do all baseball fans like the New York Yankees? Of course not. So where did this idea that all men love the Yankees (so to speak) come from?