The lost minds of the world.

[Pandemonium]

In the time of crisis and change the pragmatist rises to make the crucial decisions. To ward off the destruction that people inevitably create through their counter-productive and detrimental belief systems.

Time and time again we notice that the projects and policy required to ensure progress, development, efficiency and sustainability being destroyed through people's misguided motives and beliefs. The great ideas of the world have been misconstrued and perverted by an media industry that uses fear as its main selling point. The fear of the unknown, fear of unrest, fear of poverty, fear of death, fear of change ,fear of science, fear of fear! This fear drives the masses to opt to do nothing or agree to detrimental decisions and courses of actions.

My main question is 'Where have the pragmatists gone?'

[Kenetics]

If anything, I'd say we're living in the most pragmatic era ever. The only two reasons we complain about our systems failing, are 1) because we're getting used to a certain standard of living, and 2) because we're much better informed than ever before. Why do you feel there is a lack of pragmatists/pragmatism?

I'm from Norway, your profile says your from Australia - maybe our systems are very different. There isn't a lot of ideology in Norwegian politics (idealism yes, ideology not too much), but there is a lot of incompetence.

[Doppelbock]

In the U.S., there is a growing anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism (Google for Susan Jacoby's book, for example, or "The Dumbing Down of America", etc.). Critical thinking is a dying skill.

[RBM]

If anything, I'd say we're living in the most pragmatic era ever. The only two reasons we complain about our systems failing, are 1) because we're getting used to a certain standard of living, and 2) because we're much better informed than ever before. Why do you feel there is a lack of pragmatists/pragmatism?

I'm from Norway, your profile says your from Australia - maybe our systems are very different. There isn't a lot of ideology in Norwegian politics (idealism yes, ideology not too much), but there is a lot of incompetence.

My primary online hangout at an oil/energy board has some posters from Norway. I think their view is qualitatively different than yours. Course I expect that to be a direct result of the different missions of the respective boards.

I don't quite understand your use of pragmatism. Maybe you aren't aware of the US financial difficulties ?

I would offer that up as an off the tip of head refutation to this being "the most pragmatic era ever".





RBM added to this post, 5 minutes and 4 seconds later...

In the U.S., there is a growing anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism (Google for Susan Jacoby's book, for example, or "The Dumbing Down of America", etc.). Critical thinking is a dying skill.

DB

Or read John Taylor Gatto's work. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)





RBM added to this post, 3 minutes and 12 seconds later...

In the time of crisis and change the pragmatist rises to make the crucial decisions. To ward off the destruction that people inevitably create through their counter-productive and detrimental belief systems.

Time and time again we notice that the projects and policy required to ensure progress, development, efficiency and sustainability being destroyed through people's misguided motives and beliefs. The great ideas of the world have been misconstrued and perverted by an media industry that uses fear as its main selling point. The fear of the unknown, fear of unrest, fear of poverty, fear of death, fear of change ,fear of science, fear of fear! This fear drives the masses to opt to do nothing or agree to detrimental decisions and courses of actions.

My main question is 'Where have the pragmatists gone?'

The pragmatists are in the systems trying to keep it together. They will lose, because civilizations collapse. Then the pragmatists will be the rebuilders. Hopefully without the interference of the power mongers - but I doubt it.

[Kenetics]

The multiquote thing is all messed up.

"In the U.S., there is a growing anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism (Google for Susan Jacoby's book, for example, or "The Dumbing Down of America", etc.). Critical thinking is a dying skill."

I know that, it seems to be growing in Norway as well, but compared to when? Compared to 30 years ago? Sure, maybe. I'm not saying the world is full of rational people - what INTJ would? But of course there are pragmatists left. They're a minority, but then again they always were, and look at what we've accomplished. The financial crisis is a bitch, but how many people are starving, compared to a fully-functioning economy by 19th century standards?

"My primary online hangout at an oil/energy board has some posters from Norway. I think their view is qualitatively different than yours. Course I expect that to be a direct result of the different missions of the respective boards."

I'll reiterate my point that there is little ideology, but a lot of incompetence and anti-intellectualism in Norwegian politics. I'd be interested to know what their political views are. The election is coming up, and I doubt that the quasi-socialist government will survive it. Then there is the threat from the right, with the pseudo-libertarian-let's-spend-all-the-billions-of-dollars-of-oil-money-so-called-Progress-Party. But in spite of all that, Norway works. And it works first and foremost because our politicians - dumb as they may be (and trust me, they are) - are willing to make compromises.

"I don't quite understand your use of pragmatism."

Political pragmatism? To always choose utility over ideology? To focus more on the problems at hand than at a closed vision of how society should be? But was the financial crisis caused by a lack of pragmatism? Or was it caused by greed and a lack of long-term goals?

"Maybe you aren't aware of the US financial difficulties ?"

I'm unemployed. People are being fired all across the board. Social services are struggling to pay money to the unemployed. The Norwegian economy is closely tied to the American economy. But the financial crisis has only lasted for about 6 months, how much time are you willing to give the pragmatists to rise out of the ashes? It will happen!

[Visum]

"Although they are highly capable leaders, Masterminds are not at all eager to take command, preferring to stay in the background until others demonstrate their inability to lead. Once they take charge, however, they are thoroughgoing pragmatists." (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
It is just a matter of time until we feel compelled to jump up and say enough is enough.

[Pandemonium]

What compelled me start such a thread was that the Queensland government has invested 9 billion dollars with an allocation of 2 billion dollars to a water recycling plant, for a our water security plan. (The whole drought problem). The media ran a fear campaign stating that recycled water "will make you sick". What ever story sells no matter how false.The notion is ridiculous since this water recycling plant expels 99.99999999999999% pure H20. Under pressure the government had folded to the fear campaign and has commissioned the plant to remain on idle until the water supplies fall to 10% again. Many of the doom speakers when asked if they understood the science behind the plant replied with "We don't need to understand the science to know it will make us sick."

The same types of scenarios occur all the time. Whether it be the introduction of infrastructure or regulation of market risk. The basic fear of the unknown and the lack of education or want to be educated causes people to be seduced by the fear driven media industry.

Ergo it is the job of 'us pragmatists' or whom ever to fix the problems when the shit hits the fan, rather than prevent the problem from occurring.

[Thinker]

Populations are conservative by nature. Often the lowest common denominator view prevails....because it is conservative.

I think you also have too many '9's in your number...they work to log9 purity.

On the water issue, I have to admit that whilst I am all in favour of recycling, there are a few issues to sort out.

Human Error
Nuclear energy was put forward in the 60's as 100% (techically) safe....3 mile island and Chernobyl are both examples of where human intervention created potentially cataclysmic outcomes.

Dr Collignon from the ANU has made some valid points about risks.
Whilst the risks may be small - a "bad" outcome could be cataclysmic.

In relation to the water supply to a modern city (like Brisbane and SE Qld) is that a bad outcome has the potential for many millions of people to be affected.

I am not completely satisfied with the technology...and I have to admit I have not personally researched the issue. My own city is dealing with a significant water shortage and is also looking at recycling from the main treatment works back to a primary storage dam. Dr Collignon who is being consulted on this has concerns about the ability to eliminate some artificial hormones from drugs from the recycled water.

I would also say that pragmatism does not sell newspapers or TV programs, and often goes unreported.

I work for a lobbying organisation and have to say that often pragmatism seems to be lost in the public debate....but is happening behind closed doors.

[dogwoodlover]

The great ideas of the world have been misconstrued and perverted by an media industry that uses fear as its main selling point.

Try comparing the writings of Marx to what you read in your high schools textbooks about "Communism."

[Pandemonium]

Populations are conservative by nature. Often the lowest common denominator view prevails....because it is conservative.

I think you also have too many '9's in your number...they work to log9 purity.

On the water issue, I have to admit that whilst I am all in favour of recycling, there are a few issues to sort out.

Human Error
Nuclear energy was put forward in the 60's as 100% (techically) safe....3 mile island and Chernobyl are both examples of where human intervention created potentially cataclysmic outcomes.

Dr Collignon from the ANU has made some valid points about risks.
Whilst the risks may be small - a "bad" outcome could be cataclysmic.

In relation to the water supply to a modern city (like Brisbane and SE Qld) is that a bad outcome has the potential for many millions of people to be affected.

I am not completely satisfied with the technology...and I have to admit I have not personally researched the issue. My own city is dealing with a significant water shortage and is also looking at recycling from the main treatment works back to a primary storage dam. Dr Collignon who is being consulted on this has concerns about the ability to eliminate some artificial hormones from drugs from the recycled water.

I would also say that pragmatism does not sell newspapers or TV programs, and often goes unreported.

I work for a lobbying organisation and have to say that often pragmatism seems to be lost in the public debate....but is happening behind closed doors.

The plant can work up to log12 purity. After the water has been recycled it gets put into the damns. Then once again it is treated. If we were really worried about hormones we should first take note of the artificial hormone content in the food we eat. Not pure water.

Due to the fact I am studying engineering the methods used to purify water have be ground into me. I have had to design several plants so far.

Try comparing the writings of Marx to what you read in your high schools textbooks about "Communism."

I done that a very long time ago.

[SirJac]

The plant can work up to log12 purity.

108% pure H2O? how does that work?

[Pandemonium]

108% pure H2O? how does that work?

You would be very surprised.......I have no idea. I really have to research better.

[eternaltriangle]

"What compelled me start such a thread was that the Queensland government has invested 9 billion dollars with an allocation of 2 billion dollars to a water recycling plant, for a our water security plan. (The whole drought problem). The media ran a fear campaign stating that recycled water "will make you sick". What ever story sells no matter how false."

I don't think it is fair to say that the opponents are irrational or un-pragmatic, simply because their messaging is. Lets say opponents were fiscal conservatives that thought 9 billion was too much money, or environmentalists that feared damage from the recycling plant, and preferred a different option (desalination plants, for instance). Those may not be your positions, but it isn't hard to imagine reasonable people holding them.

Now, in order to stop an event both consider to be bad (a water recycling plant), they need an issue that unites supporters of both groups, and is easily understood. Do they employ misleading attacks? Sure. But in pursuit of a defensible objective. Should they have conducted an honest campaign that would probably have lost? Well, no pragmatist would.

[Thinker]

With the implementation of any new technology or system, it is not enough to be right in a technical sense..

You need to sell the idea to the public, to various interest groups, to the media and to politicians. If the idea does not get traction across all of these groups, that is enough for it to fail.

Many exceptional ideas fail because their proponents are simply unable to sell the idea to a broad spectrum of the community.

Also, the reality is that sometimes you will just end up with a stupid (community) leader who mounts a negative campaign and you end up losing, as happened in Toowoomba.

Pragmatism is often about patience and about waiting until all of the elements are aligned until proceding.

Pragmatism is realism...it is not idealism.

As an engineer (I would suggest), you will be spending a lot of time during your career selling concepts and ideas to a wide range of audiences. This is an extremely valuable skill....there are very few engineers who are both good engineers and good salespeople.

I am all in favour of this technology...I just need to be convinced of the systems in place to mitigate risk, especially human error.