Aspergers and INTx's

[Gabrielle]

Where should I start?

Oh yes. Well, my father is an INTP... he's an economist. He has Asperger's (clinically diagnosed, sending my mother into one hell of a marriage.... communication problem much). I am INTJ and I have Asperger traits.

So... do you think there's a linkage between Autism and being INTxs?

It has been known that autism is more prevalent in the males and that it is seen quite often among physicists and mathematicians. And since INTJ is the typical male brain centered around logic and whatnot, I thought there might be some connection.

This is for my psych paper... any insight would help :-D

[qwerty]

At the end of the day someone has mentioned the apparently high IQ rate of intj's and yet this forum seems plagued with social anxiety topics so this either tell us that intj's and Aspergers display the same 'symptoms' or perhaps intelligent people are more prone to Aspergers or Savant Autism.

Looking Aspergers though it is a complete lack of emotions, and intj is apparently hyper sensitive and introverted (so given the right stimuli it should be easy enough to see differences - is your subject uncaring or simply nervous).
As for Autism, that's a little harder as introversion and anxiety in social situations seem to go hand in hand. Using myself as an example -

Minimal Eye contact is a defining trait in young autistic sufferers. For myself I've never been big on eye contact as I get distracted in a persons eyes. This appears to be a symptom that is the same externally but I'm sure is internally different. I imagine that an autistic person avoids eye contact as they see something completely different (maybe they have some OCD to stop them).

[Tsuru]

Well I've definitely got eye contact issues and a lot of trouble reading social/emotional cues from others. I don't catch implied things in a lot of questions (ie, answer them simply when it should be obvious the person is asking for more detail). I've got narrow fields of interest that I know a lot about. I probably wouldn't be labeled with it but I've got a lot of traits.

I'd be willing to bet INTJs probably have a higher correlation with Aspergers than any other type.

[elsdfr]

I've actually worked with two people with slight Aspergers and went to school with another two. I was fairly close to all of them and I know three of them where INTPs. Off the top of my head I found the difference between us was the fact that even if they new what they where talking about they where rarely able to relate it to other people. Not only because they couldn't explain it in any form other than the one they knew but because they couldn't engauge the person that they where talking to and eye contact is number one step. If you can't look someone in the eye they are more likely to dismiss it if they don't understand how that person works

Personally I've never had an issue with eye contact if I know what I'm talking about and know I'm right I can stare straight through people. Its just when I'm uneasy or unsure about a situation that I become flighty or aloof.

I would also think introverted thought would be their primary function with Se and Fe almost non existent.

[mielikki]

My oldest son is autistic, and my youngest son has Asperger's. It is suspected that I have Asperger's also. (I really have no desire to go through the testing procedure at this stage of my life, as it would serve no purpose, but all the Psych's dealing with my sons believe it to be so)

I disagree with the thought that people under the autistic spectrum do not have emotions. What we have is a lack of emotional depth, perhaps - or an inability to convey our emotions in an acceptable manner. Undoubtedly, I have problems with the nuances of emotions, but I do have them. I don't find them useful most of the time, and annoying a lot of the time. I don't use them to make decisions either.

I have no trouble getting my thoughts and ideas across. Neither does my youngest. People with Asperger's are usually quite verbal and indeed score high on verbal reasoning. As a matter if fact, they tend to talk - a lot. We are usually considered quite rude, though. We could care less about social conventions, and say what is on our minds. The good news is, Aspie's can learn social cues and behaviours by rote. Much like learning how to play the piano. To be an Aspie, you cannot have a cognitive delay.

My autistic son? Not so much. He is high-functioning, which means he has an IQ of at least 70 (how can you can test someone with a language disorder using a language-based test and expect accurate results?), but has a serious language disability. His verbal comprehension is quite low, and he just can't "get" anything but the broadest body language. However, he has a driver's license and a job - and is undoubtedly the "nicest" of the three of us. I don't believe I am badly afflicted, so I can be taken out in company; but my youngest, by his own admission, is meaner than a snake.

But which came first - the chicken or the egg?
Do I test INTJ *because* I have Asperger's tendencies?

[Fatvamp]

It seems I'm having a similar constellation here: INTJ and having as you describe it "Asperger traits".

Hard to tell for me where INTJ ends and Asperger starts or vice versa. But all in all I know the obstacles of such a combination, but also the opportunities.

Don't feel challenged at all :)


bye
FV

[Jennywocky]

The people I've known with Aspergers are an odd mix -- they come across as INTP in their relational ability / detachment, but demanding a LOT of structure and regularity that is usually more indicative of (S)J types. Sort of like a maxed-out ISTJ (in overall personality) that has an N range of thinking.

[AntimonyLegault]

Imho it is really of importance to take psychology at face value, it paralells astrology in some aspects. There is no way to 'prove' aspergers syndrome scientifically, just intuitively. While there are patterns to things, not knowing why and assuming links is alot like sterotyping/racism/etc.

[Booko]

Where should I start?

Oh yes. Well, my father is an INTP... he's an economist. He has Asperger's (clinically diagnosed, sending my mother into one hell of a marriage.... communication problem much). I am INTJ and I have Asperger traits.

So... do you think there's a linkage between Autism and being INTxs?

It has been known that autism is more prevalent in the males and that it is seen quite often among physicists and mathematicians. And since INTJ is the typical male brain centered around logic and whatnot, I thought there might be some connection.

This is for my psych paper... any insight would help :-D

I've seen more indication in naturopathic literature about a link between autism and reactions to particular additives in vaccinations.

[Ytterbium]

By reading the definition I think it sounds a lot like ISTJ. But then generally INTP seems to be very "Aspergic".

I did a test on the net which said I have Asperger tendencies. The test (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[INTJgal]

Where should I start?

Oh yes. Well, my father is an INTP... he's an economist. He has Asperger's (clinically diagnosed, sending my mother into one hell of a marriage.... communication problem much). I am INTJ and I have Asperger traits.

So... do you think there's a linkage between Autism and being INTxs?

It has been known that autism is more prevalent in the males and that it is seen quite often among physicists and mathematicians. And since INTJ is the typical male brain centered around logic and whatnot, I thought there might be some connection.

This is for my psych paper... any insight would help :-D

Autism is ridiculously correlated to SLI (specific language impairment). 25% of 1st order relatives of autistic kids have a SLI. A 2% correlation would be something to scream from the hilltops about, but 25% means it's ridiculously correlated. Strong genetic component.
The 7 characteristics of autism (see leo kanner) also somewhat correlate with traits common to introvertedness and NTs. But not super well.

I actually just wrote a short paper on brain lateralization, handedness, and language (language being strongly related to autism, right). I could email it to you if you wanted.

Introvertedness has been proven to be biological (different brain responses than extroverts). I know of no evidence for S/N, F/T, J/P.

But is NT, and introvertedness, genetic?

[rocksteady]

Imho it is really of importance to take psychology at face value, it paralells astrology in some aspects. There is no way to 'prove' aspergers syndrome scientifically, just intuitively. While there are patterns to things, not knowing why and assuming links is alot like sterotyping/racism/etc.

can't be proven yet, the brain is being mapped with more and more detail everyday, these answers probably won't be a mystery for long. Why is looking for genetic link somehow racist?

I take general psych at face value for sure. Interpreting behavior is a tricky business. But when psychology and neurology come together, you can get solid answers. This is something that isn't done much and I remember watching a talk on TED about how they lacked an even basic framework for how the brain works for the longest time, but now they are making all kinds of breakthroughs...

[Yonae123]

I too disagree with the thought that people under the autistic and aspergers spectrum do not have emotions.

I am skeptical that genetics plays a major role in personality and lean toward environment as the key factor in determination. True personality can be supressed or masked by life events and circumstance. But I have read Aspergers and Autism is genetically inherited. So I don't believe the two have any correlation. Although the traits of INTJ and Aspergers might be similar I think that the genetic relationships would be different.

Or.... maybe it is just my idealism coming out which fights against any concept that the reason I am the way I am is because of my DNA influencing or even determining my thought process and actions.

[Xenolar]

There is a very high chance that I have Asperger's.

Most psychologists believe that Asperger's is correlated directly with a near-absent Fe, and to a lesser extent, Se. Thus, the types most susceptible to having Asperger's are INTP and ISTP along with INTJ and INFJ. Generally speaking, people with Asperger's and autism live in their own worlds and have many problems with processing sensory information, so, in my opinion, it is more common for people with Asperger's to be N rather than S. The world of Asperger's is highly Ti and Ni in nature.

Many people seem to believe that autistic spectrum disorders are the result of mercury poisoning from vaccines. Honestly, I think that, generally speaking, this is completely wrong. Autism is a very genetic disorder. I have once seen Asperger's referred to as "The Engineer's Disorder" because a shockingly large number of people affected by Asperger's have family members working in scientific fields or fields of engineering. As previously stated, autistic traits can actually be helpful in very systematic fields of study, such as science in general.

I hate how people assume that those on the autism spectrum are devoid of emotions. This is entirely false. People with Asperger's may have a hard time expressing emotions in a "conventional" manner, but this hardly means that they don't have emotions.

Eye contact and facial expressions are very confusing to those with Asperger's. Unlike most people, those with Asperger's lack an intuitive and built-in comprehension of body language. On the flip side, however, those with Asperger's tend to have an extremely intuitive understanding of complex systems, such as mathematics, engineering, and physics.
Eye contact actually feels physically strenuous to a certain degree, and it distracts the him or her from the conversation. Thus, if you are ever speaking to someone with Asperger's, don't tell him or her to look you in the eye out of suspicion that he or she is not paying attention to what you are saying. Just because he or she is not looking at you doesn't mean that he or she isn't listening.

Here are explanations of the symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome:
Problems with communication and social norms: As stated, this is simply something that people with Asperger's are not built in with. To quote a documentary about Asperger's, think of it as "social dyslexia." Miscommunication often results from the difficulty people with Asperger's have in expressing empathy (note that I said expressing empathy).
Obsessive interests: People with Asperger's usually have a very deep interest in a particular subject. The world is very chaotic for those with Asperger's. Studying something systematic in nature is something they are naturally drawn to.

Here are some videos that attempt to make neurotypicals better understand the reasons for the seemingly strange behavior of those with autistic spectrum disorders. The first clip and the last clip are exaggerated and not done very accurately, but at least they get the point across:

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[OneBadMother]

I get along pretty well with this guy I know who has Aspergers. He's much more into there being truths than I am, though. Me and my INTJ friend bothered him once with the concept of subjective reality.

[acyckowski]

My son (8) has the Asperger's label from school, although I suspect he is just INTP with a very pronounced preference to the concrete. Reading Keirsey's description of the NT in a school environment is almost like a paraphrase of the Asperger's definition...seems like which way you call it is based on your bias of psychology as either corrective or descriptive.

I don't think the need for structure is indicative of an ISTJ, as a true ISTJ (my wife) accepts the structure of what Society expects, whereas my son and I will create structure where there is none, and feel free to reject a structure that does not make sense.

For those who are wondering, I was perfectly willing to accept the Asperger's label in order to get my son help in reading comprehension. As a bonus, it gets the teacher off his back for stuff that is truly stupid. So what if he gets up to sharpen his pencil every fifteen minutes? Don't send me a note home, Teach, deal with it or let it go.

[Nausved]

One of my better friends is an Aspie, as well as an ISTP. I am an ISTJ, but I am not at all autistic or Aspie.

He and I do get along very well, and I'm sure his autistic tendencies (or maybe it's just his ISTP tendencies?) have something to do with it. With most people, I have to be "on" and at attention, but he doesn't seem to mind/notice if I become socially more relaxed. As such, his company doesn't drain my energy the way that most people do.


Some differences I've noticed between him and myself:

-He is unable to drive because he has difficulty responding to so many stimuli at once.
-I am a good driver (but I do find it very boring and avoid it when I can).
-He talks loudly and somewhat monotonously. This is off-putting to most.
-I am soft-spoken, and I involuntarily inflect my voice. People are comfortable talking with me.
-He can talk endlessly about a single subject that is of particular interest to him.
-I'm not much of a talker, and nor do I devote myself so entirely to any one interest.
-He does not pick up on most social cues.
-I am aware of social cues (although they do drive me nuts).
-He is very stringent about following rules. He never jay-walks, for example.
-I break rules that get in my way.
-He never says hello; he just jumps right into conversation, even if it has been months since we last spoke.
-I always share greetings with people (except for him, obviously).

I'm not sure how much of the above is due to simple differences in personality, and how much is due to differences between the autistic and "neurotypical" mind.

[elsdfr]

I saw a doco on gifted people and the few Autistic people they had on there struck me as very INTJish as in I could see parts of myself in them... just extreme/young cases.

I'm no expert on the difference between the two but I would say Autism is inline with INTJ and Aspergers with INTP. Although I did see a few paper in the past pointing to it being a line ball between the two MBTI types and Aspergers (sorry no references :p).

[eMachine]

I've had social anxiety for as long as I can remember. I have been reading and watching videos about autism/asperger's lately and I was beginning to wonder if I may be 'on the spectrum', but then I took a test and learned I am INTJ. I'm sure this has something to do with my social anxiety and it explains alot for me. Still, there are some commonalities between INTJ and the autistic spectrum.

Although, there are some parents of autistic children who now believe that they've treated their childs autism with 'diet detox'... I'd be interested to see what psychological personality categories those 'detoxed' children fall into.

[ssfanatic]

I dont necessarily think that showing a few traits gives (ok a lot of traits) me a genetic disorder that has no history in my family. Though i may just be in denial ;D

[acyckowski]

I saw a doco on gifted people and the few Autistic people they had on there struck me as very INTJish as in I could see parts of myself in them... just extreme/young cases.

I'm no expert on the difference between the two but I would say Autism is inline with INTJ and Aspergers with INTP. Although I did see a few paper in the past pointing to it being a line ball between the two MBTI types and Aspergers (sorry no references :p).

See, I looked at the Aspie screen and identified with quite a bit of it. I have trouble making anybody believe it, since at the age of 14 or so I decided I wanted to blend with the general population and applied my NT to interpersonal skills.

Sorry, I digress. Point being, my son seems less interested in general systems and more interested in physical systems than I am, otherwise he's my boy. Just seems like one part of the Psych community says it's a "syndrome" while another part says the same thing is just a natural result of a personality conflict. Either way, the school has a real problem with it....back in my day, you were just called a Nerd and left alone.

[Parallel]

I definitely do think INxJ's have Aspergerish traits because many of them seem like they don't have feelings or might come off as socially retarded b/c they're so imperceptive to other people's feelings.

Some of my friends think I either have a Narcissistic Personality Disorder or that I have high-functioning Asperger's. Probably because I can be so harsh in my judgments when I don't mean to be or that I tend to do things the way that I want even if they don't make sense socially.

[deepFlow]

Eye-contact-wise, I get caught up in knowing that I should make eye contact, so I try, but then stress out over things like "Okay, so which one of their eyes should I stare at?", "For how long?", "Is it okay to blink?, "Can I / should I switch eyes at some point? How often?", "Should I look away?", "But does that make me look shifty?" etc.

[elsdfr]

Ahh yeah I care stare the hell out of someone but others can really see me through me at other times, Its a worry!

On the Aspie traits I agreed because sometimes you are told "I can't believe you where like that"... yet at others "you where totally unreasonable".. how can you understand this?