Need help with an ENTJ Lady?

[juchestyle]

Hey all,

So I met this wonderful lady the other day at a party in a hotel. Her name is Mimi, she is from Canada, speaks and sings in French, use to be a pilot, extremly intelligent, is an engeineer, athletic, rides 50 mile road races, dresses very well, and is catholic.

We had a wonderful time talking during this party. Several times I had to step away to make sure on of my friends was not too drunk, and when I came back there was always another guy talking to her. We would pick up where we left off and before you know it the other guy would take off and we would be talking again.

I asked for her number, we hugged and she left, nothing more than that. And both of us really enjoyed the conversation.

I called her later and she came out to celebrate my birthday with me at Epcot. We were having a grand old time, talking, laughing, people were giving us their fast pass's, like the world was saying, this is a good thing you two are together. During the firework show she said happy birthday, and leaned over and gave me a G rated kiss on the lips. She kissed me. Our hugs have been long embraces, and that night we held hands a couple times too. She bought me ice cream and had me close my eyes while she put a candle on my ice cream and lit it. She got me a birthday card, and a decorative plant.

I didn't expect any of this.

We have continued to talk and get to know each other, never kissing more than a G rated kiss. Last Friday she invited me to her place (she lives 40 miles away) and I hung out with her parents and her and we went to eat oysters. I ended up paying for it and we went back to her place. Her parents went to sleep (they are visiting), and her and I watched The Secret, and then most of Happy Feet.

She seemed surprised that The secret was religiously based. During the movies we hugged a little and G rated kissed a couple times. During the second movie we spooned and she mostly fell asleep in my arms.

Then on Sunday, we were talking up a storm and I asked if she would like to have dinner with me at my place or I could go to her place and make dinner for her and her family? She seemed very uncomfortable with it all and said she didn't want to be intimate with me.

I was kind of blown away by that, I have never been more G rated with a woman than I am with her, per her request. She countered and said, let's go out to eat. Personally I like to do that once or twice and then I like to do other things like make dinner, go to the park and have a picnic, etc.

Any ideas what is going on?

I think I am going to call her tonight and suggest the park thing.

I am emotionally involved of course so I can't see very clearly here?

Thoughts, Ideas, suggestions, Ladies don't be shy?

[alphawolf]

LOL, she got you interested, you showed it, now she started the "playing hard to get" game.

Ignore her for a week, then ask her out again. If she refuses, don't call her again. She might call you back. If she agrees, then you set the terms of where you are going - it's not open to negotiation, either yes or no will do.

This is what I am talking about when I say that women will test a man who they are interested in for weakness. Don't bend.

[Synamon]

You mentioned that she's Catholic, and also had another reference to religion in your post. I would take her statement that she doesn't want to be intimate with you at face value. Maybe she doesn't trust herself to keep it G rated if she's alone with you in private so she is setting some boundaries. If you are ok with a G rated courtship, you should reassure her that you don't want to pressure her into anything physical at this stage of your relationship. Respect her boundaries and take her out to eat somewhere where there isn't a bed or a couch.

[rara avis]

Are you willing to just be friends with her?

If she said she doesn't want to be intimate with you - with no yet or at this point involved in the sentence... then I'd think you can take her at her word. Either she has a very unusual standard of what's involved in a romance (ie, no physical intimacy for whatever reason) - or she really just wants to be friends with you, and nothing more.

[cereza]

What a tangled web.

I say you put her on the backburner for a few days as Alphawolf suggested. A girl like her seems to catch the attention of men frequently, so don`t make her your first priority. Cool off, get your mind back into the game, read a book and approach the situation differently. I won`t go into what it could be, because it could be anything. I will say cool your heels, and take a little bit of control in the friendship by not just flying with her ideas and letting her steer you. Be as firm as she is. However don`t be too intimate with your suggestions: i.e. go out to dinner at public places... you both could be making this too close, too quickly for her liking. Let her know that you have a life. If she plans something, say at 8:00.. say 8:45. Get what I mean?

Game on, let us know how it goes. :)

[tp6626]

Last Friday she invited me to her place (she lives 40 miles away) and I hung out with her parents and her and we went to eat oysters. I ended up paying for it and we went back to her place.
This part stood out to me for some reason, it makes you sound a little resentful of that fact, hehe, but from the rest of the post I think I can tell you're not.

Weird, I guess. lol

[Storm]

You mentioned that she's Catholic, and also had another reference to religion in your post. I would take her statement that she doesn't want to be intimate with you at face value. Maybe she doesn't trust herself to keep it G rated if she's alone with you in private so she is setting some boundaries. If you are ok with a G rated courtship, you should reassure her that you don't want to pressure her into anything physical at this stage of your relationship. Respect her boundaries and take her out to eat somewhere where there isn't a bed or a couch.

I agree with Syn here. It doesn't sound like she's playing any sort of game or involved in any sort of power struggle. She's letting you know she's uncomfortable with physical intimacy and prefers to stay in public places, at least at this stage. Too bad she wasn't more upfront with that since "intimate" can mean both emotional and physical closeness. If you aren't sure, I'd ask her what she meant.

[Asinine]

I can see a thread in about a week where some ENTJ woman openly wonders why her new INTJ friend suddenly clammed up on her. History dictates she will point out his faults in an attempt to figure out "what's wrong with him." And, people will essentially reply something along the lines of "He's an ass."

Do I have this about right?

[juchestyle]

Hey Asinine,

I couldn't agree more with you on that one. I was driving to work today thinking about this (I hate being an INTJ sometimes) and I wanted to yell to the women in the world "Be truthfull, do you really want a great guy, really, are you sure!"

My ex-girlfriend in Australia, haven't seen her since November of 97, but we talk all the time; told me, "Stop trying to figure women out, they don't even know what they want."

Look I think I understand why a woman doesn't want anything to do with a great guy, and it is funny that Asinine pointed out, yeah why did this INTJ guy stop being so (nice, pleasant, accommodating, friendly, cool, who knows?)

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE GUYS FAULT?

So anyway, I did call her last night and I invited her to Survivor night with my friends on Thursday. I am going to make Matthews Famous Bruschetta as an appetizer. I am not going to hold her hand, or kiss her.


Ladies, should I give a good hug or avoid this too?

[Henry]

We had a wonderful time talking during this party. Several times I had to step away to make sure on of my friends was not too drunk, and when I came back there was always another guy talking to her. We would pick up where we left off and before you know it the other guy would take off and we would be talking again.

I asked for her number, we hugged and she left, nothing more than that. And both of us really enjoyed the conversation.

I called her later and she came out to celebrate my birthday with me at Epcot. We were having a grand old time, talking, laughing, people were giving us their fast pass's, like the world was saying, this is a good thing you two are together. During the firework show she said happy birthday, and leaned over and gave me a G rated kiss on the lips. She kissed me. Our hugs have been long embraces, and that night we held hands a couple times too. She bought me ice cream and had me close my eyes while she put a candle on my ice cream and lit it. She got me a birthday card, and a decorative plant.

I didn't expect any of this.

We have continued to talk and get to know each other, never kissing more than a G rated kiss. Last Friday she invited me to her place (she lives 40 miles away) and I hung out with her parents and her and we went to eat oysters. I ended up paying for it and we went back to her place. Her parents went to sleep (they are visiting), and her and I watched The Secret, and then most of Happy Feet.

She seemed surprised that The secret was religiously based. During the movies we hugged a little and G rated kissed a couple times. During the second movie we spooned and she mostly fell asleep in my arms.


One, I would question typing her as ENTJ.

Two, there's little ambiguity in her signals.

Three, zero downside to either talking about a serious relationship or making a move.

Human communication is prone to error. INTJs are probably the least suited, after INTPs, to reading non-verbal signs of communication. This means that we sometimes have to just "go for it" when we're not sure, and if wrong, don't beat yourself up about it. A handful of misread signals is better than a lifetime of being single.

[wotsamattaU]

What a tangled web.

you both could be making this too close, too quickly for her liking.

I think that is it. Too, her parents are in town visiting and suddenly there is this persistent male presence (you)...this would put the folks antenna up.

It could be any of the below, or a combination of:
Too much too fast
Parents jumping to conclusions
She doesn't want a physical relationship quickly (some men start slowly then suddenly pounce on you)
She could be experiencing an attachment towards you which frightens her


She is setting boundaries she feels comfortable with. It's great that she is being upfront with you on this, and so soon after meeting. It shows honestly in communication and a willingness to deal with things directly.

Next time you two are together ask her specifically what she meant regarding intimacy. Allow her to define it for you.

I think she is trying to slow the pacing of everything, and it could be due to a wide variety of reasons...reasons which have not a thing to do with you personally. (religion, upbringing, goals, fears, past experiences in relationships, etc.)

It is clear she likes you. All you need to do is ask her what she means exactly regarding intimacy. Have her spell it out. Work it out in your head beforehand how you will respond to each different scenario. (I know, that's a given.)





wotsamattaU added to this post, 8 minutes and 36 seconds later...

I am not going to hold her hand, or kiss her.

Ladies, should I give a good hug or avoid this too?

I suggest getting her alone and asking what she meant re: not wishing intimacy. Don't make the mistake of second guessing her and not having that conversation. You are doomed to failure if you go that way.

As to how to greet her, go with what she has offered you in the past. She was comfortable with that.

It's possible the spooning, which is very intimate got her a bit concerned later.

[juchestyle]

One of lady friends at work somewhat familiar with all of this suggested that I talk to her face to face and ask her "If you were me how should go about getting to know you, what should I do?"

The reasoning is to try to understand through her eyes. I like this idea, face to face communication always seems to be good. Plus I am trying to seek to understand first and then to be understood; Stephen Covey.


So she emailed me back, after I sent her my address and she asked what my friends address was? Seems weird to me, I am going to call her tonight and see if I can talk with her. I am also kind of mentally preparing myself that this just isn't going to work, while at the same time being cool.

[pocohauntus]

Several times I had to step away to make sure on of my friends was not too drunk, and when I came back there was always another guy talking to her. We would pick up where we left off and before you know it the other guy would take off and we would be talking again.
I'd say this right here is the possible problem, mrs. doubtfire.

[Asinine]

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE GUYS FAULT?

Eh, unfortunately it's not just the women. The assumption with most people is that when a relationship breaks down it is the other person's fault. And, by that point, there is usually no shortage of annoying screw ups and tit for tats to pull from to justify that belief. Failing that, a person can always just make something up based on a false belief and flimsy evidence. It's all for shielding one's own ego. (I'm a good and honest person, so that asshole must be at fault.)

With men, they typically involve their friends, and come to the crazy-bitch conclusion. With women, they typically involve the community and play amateur psychoanalyst. (Hell, I was mucking around on a thread on another board last night where they where rolling off potential psychiatric problems, trying to find one that matched her complaints.)

...oh, and before I get the "but they do it, too" replies: What part of "typically" do you not understand?

[Cyrus]

DUDE. I agree w Alpha completely. Was about to say something along similar lines.

She's obviously an attractive lady + intelligent & witty.

Let me be blunt here. Women like that dont want a guy who's a pussy.
So dont be one.

When you play cards, you reveal them one by one by one by one... throw in the whole deck and they'll know you're wussed out.
Fastest way to lose a good woman.
Control your interest expressed. Lay it out, bit by bit.
She must reciprocate. If she doesn't.
Be prepared to drop it.
Want it too much and you'll DEFINITELY lose it anyway.

Amongst my circle of guys, "nice guy" is used as a derogatory code word for someone who is generally harmless, but will never command respect of both male and female cause he's just too wussed out.

Hope this helps mate.

[juchestyle]

Hey Cyrus,

I hear you man, and I agree with what you just said. I just keep hoping that it doesn't have to be that way. I just keep hoping that it doesn't have to be that way. I know.

[azelismia]

Eh, I say be yourself. Playing games isn't going to get you anywhere.

if she doesn't like you for who you are you don't have a chance in the long run anyway.

Be yourself and be honest.

[Prunesquallor]

Don't bother playing games. Talk to her and listen to her. Don't try to find some subtle dance of meaning behind her every statement. You'll just guess something that fits into your biases. If you have a problem with the way things are, tell her.
This isn't high school.

[juchestyle]

Just got off the phone with her, and I asked her what I should do to get to know her?

She said that the last person she dated, she spent three months getting to know him before she felt like dating. That she likes to do a lot of different things to get to know someone. She says she is still friends with him.

I don't even know where to go after that? Ideas? Three months before you can even figure out if you want to date? She asked what my longest relationship was and I said 2.5 years, she said that wasn't long. She says, people in their 30's might date 7 to 10 years. I am thinking yeah, and that is probably why they only date 7 to 10 years before they break up. I pretty much know by about a year if it is going to work or not.

Anyone else ever run into something like this?

[azelismia]

Just got off the phone with her, and I asked her what I should do to get to know her?

She said that the last person she dated, she spent three months getting to know him before she felt like dating. That she likes to do a lot of different things to get to know someone. She says she is still friends with him.

I don't even know where to go after that? Ideas? Three months before you can even figure out if you want to date? She asked what my longest relationship was and I said 2.5 years, she said that wasn't long. She says, people in their 30's might date 7 to 10 years. I am thinking yeah, and that is probably why they only date 7 to 10 years before they break up. I pretty much know by about a year if it is going to work or not.

Anyone else ever run into something like this?


nope, I'd run.

[JohnDoe]

nope, I'd run.

RUN!

[cereza]

RUN!

:laugh:

[JohnDoe]

RUN!

Having said that, Catholics don't believe in divorce, so maybe that has something to do with it? Maybe she wants to be sure before she ties the knot, but this seems very extreme.

[Storm]

The three months thing doesn't seem that weird.

But the "people in their 30s might date 7-10 years"? I don't think you'll be in your 30s any longer after that.

[wotsamattaU]

Just got off the phone with her, and I asked her what I should do to get to know her?

She said that the last person she dated, she spent three months getting to know him before she felt like dating. That she likes to do a lot of different things to get to know someone.

Anyone else ever run into something like this?

The first thing that struck me is yes - right here on this forum. It seems not uncommon for INTJ to take their time deciding whether they want to date an individual or not.

[Synamon]

The first thing that struck me is yes - right here on this forum. It seems not uncommon for INTJ to take their time deciding whether they want to date an individual or not.

I've seen those posts from INTJ women too, many say flat out that they have to get to know someone as friends before they will consider dating them. Check out posts 109-124 in the Where is a good place to meet INTJ women (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) thread.

[JohnDoe]

I've seen those posts from INTJ women too, many say flat out that they have to get to know someone as friends before they will consider dating them. Check out posts 109-124 in the Where is a good place to meet INTJ women (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) thread.

Its not the 3 months that worry me as the dating for 3+ years...

[wotsamattaU]

She asked what my longest relationship was and I said 2.5 years, she said that wasn't long. She says, people in their 30's might date 7 to 10 years. I am thinking yeah, and that is probably why they only date 7 to 10 years before they break up. I pretty much know by about a year if it is going to work or not.

Its not the 3 months that worry me as the dating for 3+ years...

I don't quite get this. If you liked someone well enough to be together for 7 to 10 years, wouldn't you likely take it to the next level before then? (assuming they want to marry or move in together eventually) That seems an excessive amount of time to date, to me.

Now I did date my future husband for 5 years prior to marriage, but that was because we were young and also saving for a decent down payment on a house.

[alphawolf]

Anyone else ever run into something like this?


Yep. Otherwise known as a waste of time.

When attempting to start a relationship, one person does not run the show. If you are not going to be assertive enough to put forth a reasonable set of demands regarding what you want, and stick to your guns, then she isn't going to give them to you. This is especially true with women who get a lot of approaches from men. And if she doesn't give them to you even after assertive communication, then certainly do not reward her for her behaviour by continuing to be nice to her. Reward good behaviour, do not reward bad behaviour.

Remember, you deserve happiness, not frustration.

[juchestyle]

Alpha,

I am with you on that one, and I am taking steps to make that a reality. I think one of the problems with being single for so long into our 30's is that we start to form a habit to life that can create a boundary to others. The other side of this is getting married young, then two people still have not formed all their habits in life, and the two of them can grow together naturally.

She is very independant, amazingly so for a woman, even as an INTJ I am surprised by the way she conducts herself. I keep wondering if this is a sign of something else that is not yet apparent.

When I first posted this thread I was a bit on the woe is me side. Presently I am reclaiming my sense of self; I am still very interested in this lady, I am still a great person, but I don't believe that two people need to take two steps backward so that the woman can take four.

I believe there is a trend in society right now for women to knock men down. They are gaining their own ambition, their own sense of self and that is great! But at the same time, it is trendy for sophisticated ladies (not all of them) to make themselves feel better by bashing on men.

Look at advertising, look at movies, how are men portrayed now days in every type of media? They are portrayed very poorly. Ladies, you have fathers, you may have brothers, and possibly sons some day or even now. How are young boys suppose to grow up to be MEN, honorable men when all the role models they see in the media are portrayed as incompetent? What do young minds learn and emulate?

[alphawolf]

She is very independant, amazingly so for a woman, even as an INTJ I am surprised by the way she conducts herself. I keep wondering if this is a sign of something else that is not yet apparent.

I had a past gf who was just like this. She had an enormous amount of guilt about sex, though she wanted it so badly. I had to be the bad one and take her guilt, to allow her to give in. But in the end, that wasn't enough, because her family started to find out about us and the guilt overwhelmed her. This was a highly successful, divorced woman in her 30s.

Oh my god, I was crazy about her. She liked me a lot as well. Sometimes things don't work out due to external influences. It's sad, but what can you do? Move on is all you can do.

[Gazelle]

Alpha,

I am with you on that one, and I am taking steps to make that a reality. I think one of the problems with being single for so long into our 30's is that we start to form a habit to life that can create a boundary to others. The other side of this is getting married young, then two people still have not formed all their habits in life, and the two of them can grow together naturally.


So true. I've found that dating in my mid-30s is a whole other world from dating in my 20s (which is when I did it last). We know ourselves better, know what we do and don't want. The trick is being able to communicate that unambiguously. I also agree that a lot of women, even in their 30s, still don't know what they want and can't explain the reasons for the behaviors and/or emotions. I find that sad.

As I've made it clear here, I love INTJs. I love them for the rationality and straight-forwardness. I hate people who are confused. Know what you want and go after it! I hate games but I do agree with alpha: "Reward good behavior; do not reward bad behavior".

[juchestyle]

Hey Gazelle,

I cherish you for you! I have great friends that are ladies and they tell me that a woman will love you for telling her that you don't play games. I often tell ladies that I will call you when I want to call you, I won't wait some specified number of days or hours or whatever the social norm is. But so far that doesn't seem to work on any of the ladies I have met in the last year.

My ex girlfriend in Australia and I talk; and she said the same thing you did Gazelle, "Don't try to figure out women, they don't even know what they want!"

Amazing how little there is of good communication!

I appreciate all of you, over and over again this group makes me feel normal; whereas the outside world tries to convince me that I am crazy.

If you guys and gals are ever in Orlando, let me know!

[Prunesquallor]

I am slightly in agreement with previous posters, only I wouldn't call it bad behaviour. Nothing makes your standards better than hers. She chose ones that work for her, or that she thinks will work for her. And she has a right to make that choice, she has a right to her boundaries and she doesn't owe you anything.

However, if they diverge from yours to a significant degree, than you are not compatible, so there's not point wasting your time. She said what she was comfortable with, and that's not what you want, so find someone else who moves faster.

[Gazelle]

My ex girlfriend in Australia and I talk; and she said the same thing you did Gazelle, "Don't try to figure out women, they don't even know what they want!"



I suspect that sometimes this has to do with the fact that women (traditionally) "defer" to men. In other words, they wait to see what the man wants/doesn't want and then conform to that. That's why we get confused! I'm not judging; I do this myself. It's hard not to.

[juchestyle]

Hey Prunesquallor,

We just met, and clearly there is an attraction on both our accounts. I think we are still in the phase where we are trying to understand one another, and fall in line with our different modes of communication, and experiences. I am not trying to change or control her, only understand what is and what is not possible.

I don't need to move fast, but I do need to know if we are both still looking for the same thing with the same goal in mind.

[Prunesquallor]

Hey Prunesquallor,

We just met, and clearly there is an attraction on both our accounts. I think we are still in the phase where we are trying to understand one another, and fall in line with our different modes of communication, and experiences. I am not trying to change or control her, only understand what is and what is not possible.

I don't need to move fast, but I do need to know if we are both still looking for the same thing with the same goal in mind.

That sounds entirely reasonable.. I just think the "bad behaviour" remark was taking it a bit far - which was what I was responding to.

[juchestyle]

While I think that was fair, I also feel that there were some signals that she threw out, that led me to be more attracted to her, and then I find out that she has this lets hang out for months before we decide to date. I realize we are both human and have needs and sometime weaknesses. And again I don't need to move fast, but three months of friendship before deciding to date is a bit on one side of the graph, wouldn't you agree?

[Prunesquallor]

While I think that was fair, I also feel that there were some signals that she threw out, that led me to be more attracted to her, and then I find out that she has this lets hang out for months before we decide to date. I realize we are both human and have needs and sometime weaknesses. And again I don't need to move fast, but three months of friendship before deciding to date is a bit on one side of the graph, wouldn't you agree?

I find it hard to agree, because it's relatively normal in my circle, especially for girls. But I was stuck into nerd classes very young and am now in librarianship, so that skews my perception somewhat. Still, I have eyes. And since it's really not hard for a girl to get laid - all you need to do is be easy, there's plenty of ready options- thus, if you can afford to be discriminating, then why not do so? it's not all like it's shown on television.

Especially since there are a lot of people who see dating as an annoying amount of time investment, as work, as an opportunity to get screwed over, etc. etc. so they want a good reason to start. Or they're religious. That doesn't mean that they don't have feelings, or that they should never show interest.

If she told you, the very second she met you, that she had these standards, would you even have talked to her? I think a lot of girls who like to take their time expect to be rejected right off the bat if they let that out. Especially in certain age groups. Does that mean she's manipulative? No. How big on disclosure were you? Did you state every single one of your expectations the first day you met? Probably not, because you think you're entirely normal and she's weird, therefore you were obvious...

Thing is, though, it's not usually that simple.

Now she's talked to you about what she likes. It wasn't crazy long down the road either. You can choose to fit into it or not. But she is not responsible for your expectations. It's frankly impossible not to talk to a guy kindly without him expecting sex really really soon - and that doesn't really reflect reality. You all seem to think it does, but I blame television.

[alphawolf]

While I think that was fair, I also feel that there were some signals that she threw out, that led me to be more attracted to her, and then I find out that she has this lets hang out for months before we decide to date. I realize we are both human and have needs and sometime weaknesses. And again I don't need to move fast, but three months of friendship before deciding to date is a bit on one side of the graph, wouldn't you agree?

It's bad behaviour. Not bad in the sense of immoral, but bad in the "don't fuck around with people's feelings and desires" department (which is what romance is all about).

Yes, it's bad behaviour. But like I said, it may have been brought on by her parents.. Maybe her mother thought you were weak since you picked up the whole tab while barely knowing them. Who the hell knows.

[juchestyle]

Prune,

She leaned in and kissed me during the fireworks. I am ok with that. I have not tried to do anything inappropriate. She has told me she waits to get to know someone, it would have been nice to say I wait longer than normal, and could have clarified that she doesn't date others during that time.

And when we were on the couch and I was not touching her inapprpriately because I told her I was fine with waiting and I told her it wasn't important that I wanted to get to know her also; what I didn't like is that she was showing no signs at all that my touch, was too much for her, now she seems like she pulled back because of it.

Look, I am not saying anything bad about her, I like her, I think she is beautiful and smart, and I have shared this. What I don't like is when anyone doesn't know themself and I have to suffer because they can't figure themselves out.

She leaned in and kissed me, ok, she was ok with me touching her arm and giving her a friendly massage, ok, but then she seems to pull back afterwards for whatever crazy reason without clearly setting expectations.

All I am looking for are expectations. I will wait 6 months a year for physical intimacy, I don't care, but I need to have an understanding of what the rules are and I don't want to be punished because I did something that she never communicated to me was not ok.

If she chooses to communicate with me, spend time with me, she told me she wants to get to know me; therefore she is partly responsible for my expectations.

I had to ask her how I should get to know her before I had any indications of her expectations.

Prunesquallor, I wonder if you are bringing your own expectations into this context? I value your input, I am just saying.

:)

[Prunesquallor]

Prune,

She leaned in and kissed me during the fireworks. I am ok with that. I have not tried to do anything inappropriate. She has told me she waits to get to know someone, it would have been nice to say I wait longer than normal, and could have clarified that she doesn't date others during that time.

And when we were on the couch and I was not touching her inapprpriately because I told her I was fine with waiting and I told her it wasn't important that I wanted to get to know her also; what I didn't like is that she was showing no signs at all that my touch, was too much for her, now she seems like she pulled back because of it.

Look, I am not saying anything bad about her, I like her, I think she is beautiful and smart, and I have shared this. What I don't like is when anyone doesn't know themself and I have to suffer because they can't figure themselves out.

She leaned in and kissed me, ok, she was ok with me touching her arm and giving her a friendly massage, ok, but then she seems to pull back afterwards for whatever crazy reason without clearly setting expectations.

All I am looking for are expectations. I will wait 6 months a year for physical intimacy, I don't care, but I need to have an understanding of what the rules are and I don't want to be punished because I did something that she never communicated to me was not ok.

If she chooses to communicate with me, spend time with me, she told me she wants to get to know me; therefore she is partly responsible for my expectations.

I had to ask her how I should get to know her before I had any indications of her expectations.

Prunesquallor, I wonder if you are bringing your own expectations into this context? I value your input, I am just saying.

:)

She has told you what her expectations are, has she not? She said she likes to wait a few months. If for some reason this is confusing, ask for further clarification. You can either drive yourself nuts trying to figure out what she really meant, because it couldn't possibly be what she said, or you can assume she's not a liar and believe her.

Wanting to get to know you, wanting to spend time with you, a certain amount of physical attraction --- does not automatically equate to wanting to get intimate quickly. Many people have other factors they like to consider. She has told you she isn't comfortable with moving fast and wants to get to know you first - I'm having trouble understanding why you are confused?

You keep saying 'she should have said' - well, she has now. Where is the ambiguity?

[juchestyle]

Fair questions, let me elaborate.

I had to ask and find out, and that didn't happen until last night, prompted by myself.

I have never asked for or requested anything from her in terms of intamacy, with the exception of the movie watching on the couch; that she did not object too, until afterwards and I think it is unfair that she has pulled back because of that experience, which was before last night, when I had to ask for details to make sense of it.

I am an INTJ, I can adjust to anything as long as I can understand it. The goal I have is to find someone I can respect and therefore love, so I am not hating here, just trying to figure out the path that quite honestly I don't thing even she can follow. And that is my beef.

[Prunesquallor]

Fair questions, let me elaborate.

I had to ask and find out, and that didn't happen until last night, prompted by myself.

I have never asked for or requested anything from her in terms of intamacy, with the exception of the movie watching on the couch; that she did not object too, until afterwards and I think it is unfair that she has pulled back because of that experience, which was before last night, when I had to ask for details to make sense of it.

I am an INTJ, I can adjust to anything as long as I can understand it. The goal I have is to find someone I can respect and therefore love, so I am not hating here, just trying to figure out the path that quite honestly I don't thing even she can follow. And that is my beef.

Honestly, you generally do have to ask. Someone has to - this time it was you. People are often quite different - not talking is not an option.

As for pulling back - sometimes people let things go a little further than they expected. Then, when they analyse the situation in retrospect, they realise it didn't fit into how they want things to go, so they backpedal. People do this all the time - one simply has to deal with it. It's no use telling people to think before they speak or act - especially extraverts. With luck, they can tone it down a little, but that only goes so far. This is not weird, abnormal, or unfair.

I call attention to this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)"Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :-) This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness."

Nobody's perfect and a lot of things with feelings don't make sense. You have to adapt a little.

[alphawolf]

The goal I have is to find someone I can respect and therefore love

Be a giver, but don't be afraid to demand the same and walk if it doesn't feel right.

Best thing to do is simultaneously work 3 or 4 love interests so you don't get hung up on one, can make demands, and can afford to walk. Get rid of one if it isn't working, and replace it with a new one. If one starts to work well, then you can make a decision to cool down with the rest. Don't dump them, just tell them that you're busy - keep them on the back burner.

It's just business, man. If you don't look out for your own ass, nobody else will. And if you think that women don't do the same thing, time to start a pot of coffee...

All's fair in love and war...

[Gazelle]

Best thing to do is simultaneously work 3 or 4 love interests so you don't get hung up on one, can make demands, and can afford to walk. Get rid of one if it isn't working, and replace it with a new one. If one starts to work well, then you can make a decision to cool down with the rest. Don't dump them, just tell them that you're busy - keep them on the back burner.


Yep. This is exactly my strategy. And I'm a woman.

[juchestyle]

Prune, now I think you and I are getting to the same level. You are right, but I don't have to like it, that is why I started this thread to make sure I didn't listen to my own propaganda. I feel that INTJs are broken people and need to listen more when it comes to interpersonal, I know my weaknesses, and I work to over come them, doesn't mean I don't have ups and downs along the way with that.

Alpha, I hear you man. Truth be known, I am writing a book, working full time, doing an MBA, exercising, and socializing. I am not really good at being interested in more than one at a time, I get what you are saying and I agree with you out of necessity of our environment but just don't have the time or the desire. I am ok on my own.

[Prunesquallor]

Prune, now I think you and I are getting to the same level. You are right, but I don't have to like it, that is why I started this thread to make sure I didn't listen to my own propaganda. I feel that INTJs are broken people and need to listen more when it comes to interpersonal, I know my weaknesses, and I work to over come them, doesn't mean I don't have ups and downs along the way with that.

Alpha, I hear you man. Truth be known, I am writing a book, working full time, doing an MBA, exercising, and socializing. I am not really good at being interested in more than one at a time, I get what you are saying and I agree with you out of necessity of our environment but just don't have the time or the desire. I am ok on my own.

Yeah, you don't have to like it. But that doesn't mean she's doing anything wrong - just possibly not totally direct, logical, and reasonable. Which, for a lot of people is perfectly normal and fine. That's all.

Believe me, this sort of thing drives me mad too. But I grew up around hordes of NFs - I had to learn to deal.

I wish you luck.

[alphawolf]

Believe me, this sort of thing drives me mad too. But I grew up around hordes of NFs - I had to learn to deal.

NFs drive me crazy with the need for mind reading... you?

[juchestyle]

Yeah, intuitive feelers, please that is like the polar opposite of INTJs.

[phoenix]

Yeah, intuitive feelers, please that is like the polar opposite of INTJs.


Then why the heck am I sooooo attracted to them? Not just for romance either. Every single one of my long-term friends is an NF.

1 ENFJ
3 INFJ
1 INFP

'Splain it! I have no clue...

[Synamon]

Yeah, intuitive feelers, please that is like the polar opposite of INTJs.
In a good way.
Then why the heck am I sooooo attracted to them? Not just for romance either. Every single one of my long-term friends is an NF.

1 ENFJ
3 INFJ
1 INFP

'Splain it! I have no clue...
Because Fe is yummy. :lovestruck:

[phoenix]

Because Fe is yummy. :lovestruck:


It must be my preferred sustenance.

[Prunesquallor]

There are a few I like.

Mostly, I just want to throw things. And scream. Especially my beloved enfj of a mother, dear lord...

[Perseus]

Big Silver Cross pendant on a necklace chain

Always get the Wolf Lady (ENTJ) to pay for the meal the first time around. Then runaway; at least that is what I would do as I am an INTP. In my limited experience the Wolf Lady knows what she wants and is very used to getting it as well.

She will know where she wants to go and the partner will have to comply. Mine wanted to go to Spain.

The physical sex bit is very important to them in a relationship, more than any other type (except perhaps the crazy Pony girl ESFJ). Their natural partner is the Cat ISTP, the horror partner for the INTP. The Wolf Lady would visit a male Cathouse. It saves them the bother of being nice to get what they want. That's why you don't pay for the meal.

[rain]

as far as my understanding of ENTJ women, once they decide you're not going to be intimate, that is the decision. you should take what she says at face value because usually ENTJs don't like to play games in relationships. they're very honest and direct.

[Cyrus]

Am I reading this right? you guys can't stand NFs? I find that their opinions usually compliments my NT side with perspective that I usually miss out. I enjoy talking to NFs alot. It's the ES types tt usually get on my nerves.

Anyways, regarding this particular ENTJ woman... well,
(1) one of the problems right now is that it's _woman_ singular.
(2) you like her ALOT

I'd suggest getting to know other women. She's prob sharp enough to sniff out that she's your key interest right now.
IE: she's holding all the cards. a _Monopoly_

juchestyle, you do come across as liking her abit too much, since you're not quite with her yet.
During the beginning phases of a relationship, you got to be prepared to walk away if the terms do not meet your requirements.
A relationship consists of two people reaching out half-way to meet at the middle.
Effort needs to be mutual. If not the imbalance in power will kill it... and make you look like a wuss if you're putting in all the effort.

In a nutshell, go see other women, and let her know that if she doesn't make up her mind, you'll find someone else.
Its human nature to automatically associate value with an object if there is competition for it, or they have a threat of losing it.
If she doesn't do anything despite this, then well, it speaks of how much she's interested in you....

rain:
erm... most ENTJs I know are by nature, subtly manipulative.
In the sense that they are aware of contextual and personal power and are willing to use it to their advantage.
They also respect competence highly and want something that is known to be of value.
They're honest and direct with people who have _earned_ their _respect_

[rain]

rain:
erm... most ENTJs I know are by nature, subtly manipulative.
In the sense that they are aware of contextual and personal power and are willing to use it to their advantage.
They also respect competence highly and want something that is known to be of value.
They're honest and direct with people who have _earned_ their _respect_

how many entjs do you know cyrus? and what are you basing your observations on?

i think what you say refers more to ENFJs. they're subtly manipulative by nature. let's not confuse apples with oranges.

[Cyrus]

I severely doubt i'm confusing apples with oranges.

i know three ENTJs. while it's not a "statistically significant" number per se, overall traits of observing people remain consistent.
I also know 2 ENFJs, one is actually very nice.
The other, like you said, is subtly manipulative and she's actually a freakin' darth vader in disguise on the inside.

So yea. I agree on the ENFJ portion, but my observation tells me ENTJs do possess similar tendencies, although of course, exhibited differently.