Why are STP/SFP placed in the same group while N's are divided by T and F

[Meyer]

Does anyone know why an stp or an sfp are placed into the same group while the N's are divided by t and f and not j and p?

[Diva]

Does anyone know why an stp or an sfp are placed into the same group while the N's are divided by t and f and not j and p?

I had the similar question.
Didn't have time to dig deep yet, maybe this site provides more information:

Keirsey's "Mirror Temperaments" and the MBTI:
A New Bridge between Type and Temperament
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[Hypomanic]

SP's all share Se in some way and SJ's all share Si.

If you think about the differences between an ISTP and an ISTJ they are phenomenal.
This is my opinion, but I don't think it would make sense to separate iNtuitives into the groups NP and NJ.

Oh and Te and Ti are judging functions, unlike Fe and Fi. That may be why. Ti and Te belong with the J's.

[Meyer]

SP's all share Se in some way and SJ's all share Si.

If you think about the differences between an ISTP and an ISTJ they are phenomenal.
This is my opinion, but I don't think it would make sense to separate iNtuitives into the groups NP and NJ.

Oh and Te and Ti are judging functions, unlike Fe and Fi. That may be why. Ti and Te belong with the J's.

Don't nps all share Ne in some way and NJs Ni? Bluewing, we could use some assistance.

[Hypomanic]

Research Link: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This site says it was left up to interpretation, so given that the order is:
NT - Rationals
NF - Idealists
SP - Artisans
SJ - Guardians

This seems to make the most logical sense, especially when one considers the logical equivalence of other configurations.

If the NJ group were considered Rationals and the NP group were considered Idealists then we'd be inferring that Rationality is based on J traits. However, making decisions based on feelings (Fe/Fi) as ENFJ and INFJ do is considered irrational. Also, making decisions based on thinking (Ti/Te) as ENTP and INTP do isn’t very idealistic.

[Henry]

Does anyone know why an stp or an sfp are placed into the same group while the N's are divided by t and f and not j and p?

Kiersey admits that this is illogical, he states that its practical in that it works. They started with NT and realized they had similarities, then realized the same for NF. They then looked at SF v ST and found that they were not very similar to each other. Probably because if you're small-minded and/or small-souled, the T/F function isn't going to make a significant difference in your personality or behavior, but whether you are rigid or open will.

[Tarrick]

You're about right Henry.

If you take Sensory vs. Intuition is how you operate, one which relies on what is perceived and the other which takes in information and analyzes it, then the importance of either set of secondary factors changes.

In SJs and SPs, the difference is in whether they Judge things in accordance with schedules and prior experience or on a spontaneous "here and now" attitude.

NTs and NFs however, deal with the information they take in internally, so how they analyze it is influence more by how their thought process is, either governed by logic or emotion.

[mind_wander]

You're about right Henry.

If you take Sensory vs. Intuition is how you operate, one which relies on what is perceived and the other which takes in information and analyzes it, then the importance of either set of secondary factors changes.

In SJs and SPs, the difference is in whether they Judge things in accordance with schedules and prior experience or on a spontaneous "here and now" attitude.

NTs and NFs however, deal with the information they take in internally, so how they analyze it is influence more by how their thought process is, either governed by logic or emotion.

Great Point Tarrick,

What happens is when NT's talking to SJ's; the SJ's are willing to opened up, but at a slower pacing. There are so many information processing in their mind, but can't sort it out. As compared to NT's processors, we can tell them apart fairly quickly. Now NT's are very patient, if the SJ does not get it; in the worst case scenario have to sugarcoat it, then fine. Sugarcoat information works for the person, then sugarcoat it will be.

[Hypomanic]

Heh yeah. I adjust depending on the friend.. with SJ's I'm much more patient and sensitive.. but I definitely much prefer just being me.. I don't think I'm too fond of SP's... so there is quite a difference. SP's are too spontaneous based on worldly-things for me. If that even makes sense.

[Tarrick]

What it is, is that Artisans (SPs) think in terms of the present, whereas Guardians (SJs) think in terms of the past. An Artisan generally cares only about how things are, and don't really care about the past or think about the future. Guardians on the other hand are very concerned, in general, about tradition and holding to it. Also Artisans main goal is having freedom to do what they want, while Guardians desire belonging to something bigger than themselves.

FYI: Idealists (NFs) see things in terms of the future and are mainly concerned with finding their identity. Rationals (NTs) see things in context as timelines and are concerned with being knowledgeable.

[Hypomanic]

Right on. My dad is an ISFP and that applies to him... big time. Insightful post.

[INTJgal]

SP's all share Se in some way and SJ's all share Si.

If you think about the differences between an ISTP and an ISTJ they are phenomenal.
This is my opinion, but I don't think it would make sense to separate iNtuitives into the groups NP and NJ.

Oh and Te and Ti are judging functions, unlike Fe and Fi. That may be why. Ti and Te belong with the J's.

It totally makes sense to separate Ns by J and P. Just like Se in SPs and Si in SJs, Ne and Ni are very different. NJs share Ni, NPs share Ne.

Your logic makes no sense b/c you're applying it to some cases but not to others.

The reason NTs and NFs are grouped together is that they share the same drives. (NT = competence, etc. NFs = identity, etc.). See PUMII (Please Understand Me II) for more detail. In practice, though, their inner worlds and way of seeing/dealing with the outer world is quite different.

SJ, SP, NT, NF all have their types of drives. But it makes sense to say the people are similar in their inner/outer worlds by NJ/NP. (My inner world is far more like an INFJ than an INTP; the ENTJs inner world is far more like an ENFJ than an ENTP, etc.)

[Danellian]

This makes sense to me, due to the differences between xSFPs and xSTPs that I have noticed. xSFPs seem to have far more in common with NFs that do xSTPs, which is a significant difference among SP types. Another SP differentiation factor I have noticed is this: by my observations, the typical SP descriptions fits the ESTP best, the ISTP less well, the ESFP even less well, or these middle two are perhaps about equal, and the ISFP fits it the least. The ISFP seems to bear the most similarity to NFs, but to xNFPs, who share Fi, and mostly INFP, who are both introverted and share Fi as primary function. ISFPs seem to place a premium on personal relationships above personal freedom, but the desire for personal freedom does seem to enter the picture, but in the form of auxiliary Se, mediated through Fi, such that it is not mutually exclusive to relationships. These seems to be a focus on the here and now simultaneoulsly with personal relationships. The ISTP, on the other hand, has dominant Ti, so has more similarity to NTs, particularly, xNTP, mostly, INTP. There is a focus on independent thought based on observations, and hands-on activity coupled with practical facts. The drive for freedom is more apparent because they lack the Fi focus on personal relationships. Their technical interests may even take them away from significant others, but their Se is not in conflict with their Ti. The ESTP fits the bill for the Se dominant, independent, role-directive artisan because they have primary Se supported by Ti. Their primary drive is for external experience and personal freedom, with an auxilary focus on practical facts, which means they don't get caught up in mental frameworks before taking action, as the ISTP might. The extraverted nature of this type makes them also more role-directive then ISTP, in my opinion. The ESFP, which I have less experience with, I see as lacking the role-directive quality due to their Fi, but having a more experiential, spontaneous focus due to primary Se, having the similarity to ISFP of relational focus instead of technical details and factual frameworks, but sharing the spontanaeity and experiential focus of ESTP. Does this cooberate with your guys' perceptions? In summation, there seems to be a lot of differences in the SP category that sometimes leads me to question it's validity.

[Hypomanic]

It totally makes sense to separate Ns by J and P. Just like Se in SPs and Si in SJs, Ne and Ni are very different. NJs share Ni, NPs share Ne.

Your logic makes no sense b/c you're applying it to some cases but not to others.

The reason NTs and NFs are grouped together is that they share the same drives. (NT = competence, etc. NFs = identity, etc.). See PUMII (Please Understand Me II) for more detail. In practice, though, their inner worlds and way of seeing/dealing with the outer world is quite different.

SJ, SP, NT, NF all have their types of drives. But it makes sense to say the people are similar in their inner/outer worlds by NJ/NP. (My inner world is far more like an INFJ than an INTP; the ENTJs inner world is far more like an ENFJ than an ENTP, etc.)

No.

ENTJ is like ENTP and INTP. My mom is an ENTJ and I by far appear more like her than an INTJ does. That's why the Myers-Briggs (doctorate = more knowledgeable than you, thanks) grouped the types this way. You should learn more about NF's and NT's and you'll understand.

[Danellian]

Not to offend here, but from my experience, the ENTPs I've known have not seemed a whole lot like ENTJs, at least, not any more than the INTJs I have known. You can't just go off yourself and your mom as an example. You would have to have a randomized sample of a large number of exemplars of these types to make such a valid comparison. But, I can at at least say, based on all the ones I have known, which is not just one example, they seem about equally different, just in different ways. ENTJ also has completely different functions that INTP, so it makes no sense that they are more like INTJ than INTP. According to functional analysis, ENTJ and INTJ both use the same set of functions, and both have Ni and Te as their conscious functions. ENTP and INTP both use the same set of different functions, and both have Ti and Ne as thier conscious functions. So, in this way ENTP is more similar to INTP than ENTJ. You can't simply ignore that. This being said, both ENTP and ENTJ are extraverted NT types, which gives them the similar flavor of extraverted NTness. On the same vein, INTJ and INFJ share the same dominant function, Ni. You cannot ignore the similarity this will accord to both types. Their auxiliary functions will, however, give them similarities to NTs and NFs, respectively. Thus, it's really not fair to say that an INTJ is more or less similar to an ENTJ than an INFJ. True, INTJs are NTs and thus abstract utilitarians, while INFJs are NFs and thus abstract cooperatives. This is true. But both types also share the same dominant function, and share this quality with no other types, not even with the other types in their own NT and NF quadrants.

[INTJgal]

No.

ENTJ is like ENTP and INTP. My mom is an ENTJ and I by far appear more like her than an INTJ does. That's why the Myers-Briggs (doctorate = more knowledgeable than you, thanks) grouped the types this way. You should learn more about NF's and NT's and you'll understand.

Because clearly a doctorate makes you knowledgeable in every single topic under the sun! Thanks for reminding me of this! How did I forget that a PhDs social relational understanding is far superior to mine?! This is demonstrated in my personal experience with a 7 1st or 2nd order relatives with PhDs. They all seem soo bright at life. (Sarcasm. They all do great in school but are terribly ignorant in interpersonal relationships and finding happiness.)

Thanks again for reminding me that your limited life experience goes against all that has been taught by Keirsey and the Myers-Briggs ladies. My evidence is backed up by MBTI research. Yours is by your mother being similar to you. But, you've got a PhD. So you're more knowledgeable. :thumbsup:

[Meyer]

No.

ENTJ is like ENTP and INTP. My mom is an ENTJ and I by far appear more like her than an INTJ does. That's why the Myers-Briggs (doctorate = more knowledgeable than you, thanks) grouped the types this way. You should learn more about NF's and NT's and you'll understand.

Don't believe everything that you read.

[Tarrick]

No.

ENTJ is like ENTP and INTP. My mom is an ENTJ and I by far appear more like her than an INTJ does. That's why the Myers-Briggs (doctorate = more knowledgeable than you, thanks) grouped the types this way. You should learn more about NF's and NT's and you'll understand.

Ummm....first of all, all majors groups (Rational, Idealist, Guardian, Artisan) all have a lot in common with each other. Next, everyone that has similar traits (Extroverts, Thinkers, Judging, etc.) have some things in common. Also the strength of each trait that is expressed in each individual can make some types more similar to some or others.

The determining components of Rationals are intuition and thinking. This means that all rationals have this in common. However, a "flip" is found in the E/I. Either the primary attribute of that rational is either introverted or extroverted. For J types it's N and for P types it's T. However, a ENTP and INTP are only different in that way. ENTP and ENTJ are different in what is their primary attribute, even though they are both expressed in a E fashion.

And as for being smarter because of a PhD....it means you learned more on a topic. Flaunting degrees to INTJs is rather...unappreciated by the audience in general. Proving that you are intelligent without pulling papers is much better received.

[Hdier]

And as for being smarter because of a PhD....it means you learned more on a topic. Flaunting degrees to INTJs is rather...unappreciated by the audience in general. Proving that you are intelligent without pulling papers is much better received.

I definitely have to agree here. When I read that, I was amused for three reasons:

1) Degree in what?

2) Not even evidence?

3) Having a doctorate obviously makes you infailable.

Sorry, but simply saying that you have a doctorate will impress few people on this board.


On the original topic, I have often wondered this as well. It made no sense to me when I originally looked at MBTI, and still makes little sense now. Are people saying that that S interacts with the T-F scale in the same way that N interacts with the P-J scale? That would be the only reason that makes sense to me, that I can think of.

[Hypomanic]

Okay, actually I've changed my mind.

I don't care to stick strictly to the groupings.. other factors are at play for whom you're most like, the groupings are a guideline. Take them or leave them, really. I suppose if you wanted to group yourself into the NJ group versus NT that's fine.

[Tarrick]

I don't care to stick strictly to the groupings.. other factors are at play for whom you're most like, the groupings are a guideline. Take them or leave them, really. I suppose if you wanted to group yourself into the NJ group versus NT that's fine.

First of all, yes, temperament is guidelines at best when determining who you will get along with.

However, just so we are all on the same page: Groups go as SJ, SP, NT and NF. From there we go like this:

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This is off of David Keirsey's site (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Rationals -> Coordinators and Engineers

Coordinators ->Masterminds and Field Marshals
Engineers->Architects and Inventors