An INFP girl

[Vagrant]

So, some of you may have noticed, I disappeared for roughly 10 days. I didn't forget about INTJf, I simply haven't had the desire to really come and post. Part of the reason was due to meeting an INFP girl not too long ago. We started off on good footing, although a bit awkward.

The thing is, we recently had a misunderstanding. I thought she was judging me unfairly, when it turns out she was actually putting up walls because of insecurities. Once we explained or thoughts and feelings though, the whole situation became a whole lot clearer, and we're probably closer now because of it.

So my question is...

Are INFP girls generally insecure? Is there a way to avoid hitting the proverbial land mines (yes, making up was good, but not the part before)? Or is this just a general girl with insecurities question?

[Noehelia]

Hm, I think all people have their insecurities in different kinds and levels ofc. And when you are interested about them (people) you try to unravel them (the insecurities) and find ways to deal with them.

We could try to explore based on MBTI what kind of insecurities each type has and how he/she behaves when an insecurity emerges.
For example her reaction of putting up a wall I believe is something that I do also especially with people I do not know that well. How you deal with that is going to show her if she can trust you in the future to tell you when something like this happens again.

[BlackOp]

So, some of you may have noticed, I disappeared for roughly 10 days. I didn't forget about INTJf, I simply haven't had the desire to really come and post. Part of the reason was due to meeting an INFP girl not too long ago. We started off on good footing, although a bit awkward.

The thing is, we recently had a misunderstanding. I thought she was judging me unfairly, when it turns out she was actually putting up walls because of insecurities. Once we explained or thoughts and feelings though, the whole situation became a whole lot clearer, and we're probably closer now because of it.

So my question is...

Are INFP girls generally insecure? Is there a way to avoid hitting the proverbial land mines (yes, making up was good, but not the part before)? Or is this just a general girl with insecurities question?

I have vast experience with dating female infps...this is what you get. Your "j" will have them hiding in the corner and you wont know why. It will end poorly...trust me. Do you like explaining shit that shouldnt be an issue ? You just found your girl...great make up sex though. What you described is just the start...hope you like drama. They are great for about 7 days...

Are INFPs insecure?...thats why they are INFPs. If I were you, I would roll. They are extremely passive-aggressive....its a bad match.

[Vexbeast]

Are INFP girls generally insecure? Is there a way to avoid hitting the proverbial land mines (yes, making up was good, but not the part before)? Or is this just a general girl with insecurities question?

It's a general people with insecurities question. Amazingly, the whole 'explain thoughts and feelings' thing will work over and over. I'd suggest sticking with that method. (As you do it more, you'll find you won't take as long before resorting to it, whereupon the so-called 'landmines' are more like bumps in the road if you're not over/under-cautious.)

[jikin]

I would not say that INFPs are generally insecure in relationships (that is a person by person basis), but if there is some sort of insecurity there they will protect it at all costs. Keep in mind that INFPs don't like others to know whatever insecurities they may have and may be very sensitive when you come close to hitting one. That may mean that even though you worked through it this time, it might pop up again, depending on how big of an issue it is to her.

How to avoid hitting one? Well, as we generally try to keep others from knowing them, they may be hard to notice ahead of time. As your relationship progresses, and she trusts you more, she will probably start letting you see them ahead of time. Please respect them. If you try to "solve" her insecurity she will see it as a form of control, and INFPs hate others trying to control them. The biggest defense mechanism an INFP has is shutting down. If you notice the beginnings of it you are close to hitting one.

Your "j" will have them hiding in the corner and you wont know why.

ummm...no. J tendancies do not send us hiding in corners. Strong controlling behavior or tramping on our ideals: possibly, but normal J tendancies: no.

[darynthe]

Give time to know each other. INFP people are extremely complex and has a whole lot of love to give, you will have a loyal companion, someone who is not interested in money as opposed in you, someone who will love you deeply and yet understands perfectly well your defects and loving you in spite of them.

As I said for it to work out you will both need time to accept each other, be patient, she is totally worth it.

[curiousjane]

I have a coworker who is ESTJ who appears to be type-A, go-getter, Ms. Confident is actually very, very insecure. Once our ENTJ coworker pointed this out to me about the ESTJ, I began to see it more ... the ESTJ is constantly asking for the opinions of others, is self-depreciating, wonders why she is "the only single person left" and is generally seeking for "more" in her life.

I asked my ENTJ coworker if she thought I was insecure, and she said resolutely: NO.

So the point is that MBTI type does not necessarily determine security.

The thing is ... sure, I feel insecure a lot. Maybe you can chalk it up to nerves or introversion or shyness. Then again ... I bet we all do; maybe I'm just more aware of it! (After thinking about it, I realized I really am NOT insecure. I have more determination and a better sense of who I am and where I'm going than many other people my age that I've met. I just have to remember that!)

INFPs, in general, I suspect have formed part of their personality as a result of having to survive in more brutal environments. We're kind of like the flowers you see growing out of rock outcroppings or through cracks in the sidewalk. We're tenacious. But we are quite vulnerable, and we're all too aware of that. We're quite used to having our "impressions" or "feelings" or "thoughts" ignored or mocked. So if we let you in and you respect those things ... WOW.

In a healthy growing relationship with an INFP you are likely to come across some of those walls; but don't think of them as fortresses. They are more like dams. They hold things back as much as they keep things out. Healthy INFPs (and by healthy I mean, not easily offended, not hyper-sensitive) will have some of these dams because they are cautious about their own responses and want to be honest with you but need to be sure, deep inside, that the response they give is true to what is going on inside their heart/mind AND is appropriate for the timing and for the maturity of the relationship. Just showing that it's OK to be her and letting her ease out of some of those barriers will, in fact, be probably the best thing that you could do to help.

I guess the question is do you think this girl is mature or immature? If she's immature, then yes, this could be a reoccurring problem. If she's mature, she's just learning how to communicate with you (and vice versa) and things will progress much better now that you've gotten past that first awkward straightening-out of expectations/miscommunications out of the way.

If you like her and think she's worth getting to know better, be patient. Things will get smoother. If you don't like her or she's way immature, watch for signs of emotional clingy-ness (i.e. not reciprocal on your part and she depends on you for happiness). Bad sign. Run away!

[speedsuit721]

Hmmmm... well, I've already shown my bias against INFPs. I just don't think the blunt honesty of an INTJ goes over very well with an INFP. You can try to hide it or temper it, but after a while, it will wear on you. Also, I think INTJs put up their own walls, probably more walls than any other personality type, whether it's consciously or not.

I think INFPs and INTJs falls for each other initially because they're so foreign to each other. The INTJ is flattered that the INFP hangs on his every word and showers him with compliments, and the INFP... well, I don't know. Maybe she finds his mysterious nature attractive. Maybe she thinks she can melt his stony heart. I just don't think it's sustainable for a long period of time.

[curiousjane]

I think INFPs and INTJs falls for each other initially because they're so foreign to each other. The INTJ is flattered that the INFP hangs on his every word and showers him with compliments, and the INFP... well, I don't know. Maybe she finds his mysterious nature attractive. Maybe she thinks she can melt his stony heart. I just don't think it's sustainable for a long period of time.
INTJs don't have stony hearts. At least not all of them.

It's always possible that my guy and I have mis-typed ourselves, and as I've said many times, MBTI does not determine who you are. Each person is individual. BUT! ...

I've found our relationship to be quite the opposite of this. He, the INTJ, showers me with compliments. I, the INFP, am the brutally honest one with the walls up around my heart of hearts (that only recently I found the courage to allow to crumble).

We're not foreign to each other, at all. In fact, in some ways we are almost uncannily similar! We think the same things, notice the same things in our environment around us when out and about, and have a similar sense of humor and enthusiasm for life. THAT is what draws us to each other.

Yes, I'm the traditionally whimsical INFP dreamer who ends up acting very ENFP around him and flitting about excitedly while he observes with that wonderful smile of his and the amusement in his eye that tells me he's enjoying me pulling him out of his shell. Yes, he's the traditionally driven INTJ with incredible focus and great enthusiasm for making things work even better than before (systems!). But, all in all, while our interests are different, they are very compatible. As are our approaches to life.

*shrug*

But hey! That's that just us.


Are INFP girls generally insecure? Is there a way to avoid hitting the proverbial land mines (yes, making up was good, but not the part before)? Or is this just a general girl with insecurities question?
I really couldn't generalize. Some are, some aren't. More importantly, what you consider to be signals of insecurity may actually simply be caution.

There are some things most girls are insecure about: our bodies and how you see them (are we attractive to you?), our emotions, and our flaws (whatever they may happen to be).

INFPs are Idealists. If you mock or diminish or viciously criticize or make less of our Ideals, Thoughts, Dreams, Hopes, or Fears ... that makes us retreat and be insecure.

So basically, if you want to avoid what you call "land-mines", don't feel like you have to tip-toe around things, but use a calm demeanor and be gentle. Let an INFP breath easily (this person is not going to belittle or mock me ... I'm okay) and you will be surprised how open they can be. It all boils down to: can she trust you to respect her, even the parts of her you don't understand.

If the answer is yes, you shouldn't have a difficult time of it, so long as you're committed to keeping open channels of communication. You'll pick up on non-verbal signals of discomfort with time.

Hope this helps.

[Vagrant]

Hmmmm... well, I've already shown my bias against INFPs. I just don't think the blunt honesty of an INTJ goes over very well with an INFP. You can try to hide it or temper it, but after a while, it will wear on you. Also, I think INTJs put up their own walls, probably more walls than any other personality type, whether it's consciously or not.Actually, it seems my blunt honesty has been a turn-on factor for her. :p

And thanks guys, all of this has really helped. :) Seems I've been doing the right things so far.

[curiousjane]

Actually, it seems my blunt honesty has been a turn-on factor for her. :p

And thanks guys, all of this has really helped. :) Seems I've been doing the right things so far.
You're welcome!

And you know why blunt honest is a turn-on for her? Because it is refreshing. I know I worry more about how people perceive me if they are passive-aggressive or prefer talking about me when I'm not around than talking to me about their issues straight-on. I'd much rather my friends and loved ones tell me what is bothering them or they don't understand than for me to wonder. (The wondering is what can drive me batty!)

[Antares]

Are INFP girls generally insecure? Is there a way to avoid hitting the proverbial land mines (yes, making up was good, but not the part before)? Or is this just a general girl with insecurities question?

I used to identify as INFP, so I'll give it a shot.

I was VERY insecure. Can't say the same for all INFP, but the INFPs I know seem to be quite insecure too. One made a hobby of self mockery.

I agree with BlackOp's point about passive-aggressive tendencies. They really frustrate me. Well, I admit I wasn't very mature when I was dealing with an immature INFP (she was going around the circles, sometimes being direct and sometimes drawing triangles in the circles she's already making). The INFP I had a conflict with was passive-aggressive, and I'm just plain stubborn. She wants people to understand what she wants, but she doesn't say it. She doesn't show it. She expects the majority of us to read her mind. I think I can read her quite well because I used to identify as INFP AND because of my intuitive function. I KNOW what she wants. I just won't give it to her until she has the guts to come out and say it. I contempted her apology because she did not list her faults, instead hitting at vague generalities. I want to hear her admit all the things she did that infuriated people. I want to hear her say 'I'm sorry' for those things, not repeating the phrase non-stop and making excuses for herself. Maybe it's my bad experiences speaking, but I've never had a really successful relationship with an INFP, friendship or otherwise.

[Monte314]

My wife is an INFP. She is highly intelligent and insightful. She does need regular encouragement, from which she seems to draw her energy. I do my best.

[Sinequanon]

I would not say that INFPs are generally insecure in relationships (that is a person by person basis), but if there is some sort of insecurity there they will protect it at all costs. Keep in mind that INFPs don't like others to know whatever insecurities they may have and may be very sensitive when you come close to hitting one. That may mean that even though you worked through it this time, it might pop up again, depending on how big of an issue it is to her.

How to avoid hitting one? Well, as we generally try to keep others from knowing them, they may be hard to notice ahead of time. As your relationship progresses, and she trusts you more, she will probably start letting you see them ahead of time. Please respect them. If you try to "solve" her insecurity she will see it as a form of control, and INFPs hate others trying to control them. The biggest defense mechanism an INFP has is shutting down. If you notice the beginnings of it you are close to hitting one.
This is so insightful that I want to give you a hug. Yes, control is a huge, huge issue with my INFP, and I have only been able to get closer to her by paradoxically backing off and maintaining a respectful distance with a gentle aura of (very, very genuine) love, concern and care. But if I try and run in full-bore Fe and "fix" things it all goes to shit. I think I should print out what you said and pin it to my wall, Jikin. :)


I've found our relationship to be quite the opposite of this. He, the INTJ, showers me with compliments. I, the INFP, am the brutally honest one with the walls up around my heart of hearts (that only recently I found the courage to allow to crumble).

We're not foreign to each other, at all. In fact, in some ways we are almost uncannily similar! We think the same things, notice the same things in our environment around us when out and about, and have a similar sense of humor and enthusiasm for life. THAT is what draws us to each other.

Yes, I'm the traditionally whimsical INFP dreamer who ends up acting very ENFP around him and flitting about excitedly while he observes with that wonderful smile of his and the amusement in his eye that tells me he's enjoying me pulling him out of his shell. Yes, he's the traditionally driven INTJ with incredible focus and great enthusiasm for making things work even better than before (systems!). But, all in all, while our interests are different, they are very compatible. As are our approaches to life.
This also sounds really familiar. You guys are making me miss her (my INFP). :(

[BlackOp]

The chemistry is immediate but short lived....I found the idealism charming and innocent at first. Being a critical, pragmatic INTJ quickly put an end to it as they REALLY believe the fantasy. They will fight you to the bitter end to maintain it. Logic flies out the window. Remember we strive for people to make sense....its a frustrating clash of different perspectives of the world. I just dont enjoy having to walk on eggshells and biting my tongue.

I have concluded INFP is a transition type...a reaction to a traumatic childhood. I dated two and had a male friend....the story was the same. Its as if they are emotionally stunted...frozen at 12 years old. I ended up not really liking all three. They are a "small dose" personality.

[WaeV]

My male INFP friend is insecure. I've been trying to help my female infj friend start a relationship with him. They both had initial attraction, but one weekend he had an anxiety attack over the whole thing that was so bad he missed school on friday and was out the whole weekend. Like actual vomiting and stuff.

[Chain]

Actually, it seems my blunt honesty has been a turn-on factor for her. :p

That and the intelligence factor was what the one I dated for a short time was attracted to. As usual, what she was attracted to was also what made her hide in the corner.

Not to go quoting movies again, but "Eggs have no business dancing with stones." -Shoot 'em up. At any rate, rather than avoid the stones, it seems they put on armor and hold out as long as they can.

[speedsuit721]

The chemistry is immediate but short lived....I found the idealism charming and innocent at first. Being a critical, pragmatic INTJ quickly put an end to it as they REALLY believe the fantasy. They will fight you to the bitter end to maintain it. Logic flies out the window. Remember we strive for people to make sense....its a frustrating clash of different perspectives of the world. I just dont enjoy having to walk on eggshells and biting my tongue.

Holy cow, I agree 100%. The first boyfriend I ever had was an INFP. He self-mutilated, and even when our relationship was going to hell, he was still convinced that I was his one, true love, even though I possessed none of the qualities he thought I did. One time he was talking to me and said something incredibly obvious. I said, "No shit." And he almost cried. It was exhausting trying to make sure I didn't hurt his feelings by just being myself. And his parents were something else, for sure. I tried to reason with him over and over, and it was like throwing yogurt at a brick wall.

[BlackOp]

He self-mutilated,

Interesting, the 2nd one I dated also did as a teen.....luckily, I got out of it quickly. She had BPD...yikes! The male had a nervous break down and moved back with his parents, He was 33....

[wotsamattaU]

The chemistry is immediate but short lived....

I disagree. You can not speak in absolutes regarding people and types.

It has been my experience that the chemistry is self-sustaining (long term - years) and of an intensity not achieved in any other combination. Results will vary with individuals, of course.

Logic flies out the window. Remember we strive for people to make sense....its a frustrating clash of different perspectives of the world. I just dont enjoy having to walk on eggshells and biting my tongue.

Believe it or not, this is specific to both of you - it is not type related. It has more to do with maturity, life experience and the willingness to be open minded enough to learn to see differing points of view.

For what it's worth, my INTJ friends do not have to walk on eggshells around me. Their candor is refreshing and makes me laugh. Perhaps the difference in our relationship is both of us seek to understand one another. This broadens our entire life scope and gives a more complete, accurate Big Picture of whatever it is we are discussing or experiencing.


I have concluded INFP is a transition type...a reaction to a traumatic childhood.

Wrong. My childhood was truly far more fortunate than most people experience. I was born from two creative, intelligent parents who encouraged continual life education in things of substance.


I dated two and had a male friend....the story was the same. Its as if they are emotionally stunted...frozen at 12 years old.

This, coming from a type not known for being in touch with their feelings? :laugh:

There is a richness and depth to the INFP type, the likes of which you will be exceedingly fortunate should you ever be allowed to tap into it.

Three people is your 'vast' experience with the INFP type?


They are a "small dose" personality.

Please explain.

[speedsuit721]

She had BPD...yikes!

My mom sent me an article on borderline personality disorder from Time Mag a couple weeks ago. He had every single symptom!

[BlackOp]

Please explain.

Exactly......


To Vagrant- Be careful that she is not the damsel in distress, "fixer upper" type. I know this dynamic well as INTJs think they can fix anything....including people. Its nice to feel needed but at what cost? I dont think INFPs are emotionally stable when risk is involved.

[rara avis]

You can not speak in absolutes regarding people and types.

This, coming from a type not known for being in touch with their feelings? :laugh:


It's not about being out of touch with our feelings, for most of us, so much as controlling how we use and express them. As opposed to being used by them. Yes, sometimes to a fault... but we tend to value our logic and reason over relatively arbitrary emotional sensation.

[wotsamattaU]

The thing is, we recently had a misunderstanding. I thought she was judging me unfairly, when it turns out she was actually putting up walls because of insecurities. Once we explained or thoughts and feelings though, the whole situation became a whole lot clearer, and we're probably closer now because of it.

Crossed wires - you felt you were being judged unfairly - she thought you were judging her.

It is only when a person feels safe with another, that the walls and wariness come down. You both need to get to that point. When you do, everything changes.

If hurt arises you will both know it was unintentionally done, because you truly care about one another. When you care deeply and it is returned in kind, the level of intimacy possible is extraordinary. It is worth working towards; it is very rarely found among the general population.

I am speaking of true depth of connection here. If you believe there is a possibility for it between you, do not take this opportunity for granted.


So my question is...

Are INFP girls generally insecure? Is there a way to avoid hitting the proverbial land mines (yes, making up was good, but not the part before)? Or is this just a general girl with insecurities question?

Speaking for myself, in my 20's wotsamattaU didn't give a rat's behind what anyone else thought of her. EXCEPT - and this is key - except if I cared about you.

I did my own thing and did not follow 'the herd'. Fitting in was not on my mind. I did not strive to be accepted by others in general - it only mattered when I liked the individual in question...usually due to some perceived commonality factor of interests or traits.

Insecurity comes into play when the perceived risk is high. If I like you, then it follows I will care about what you think of me, because ideally I would like my affections returned.

[curiousjane]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, let us hearby assume that the INFP girl in question is not needy, clingy, or easily hurt.

Let us assume she is a mature adult (we hope!) with full possession of her faculties.

Let us assume she is psychologically, emotionally, and physical sound.

Let us assume she does, indeed, have an interest in the OP.

Let us assume that he does, indeed, have an interest in her.

Let us also assume that our preconceived ideas of a particular type based on our limited exposure/experience to or with said type is inadequate, at best, to figure out what is going on in his girl's mind.

With these things in mind ... how can we help him communicate with her?

[wotsamattaU]

It's not about being out of touch with our feelings, for most of us, so much as controlling how we use and express them. As opposed to being used by them. Yes, sometimes to a fault... but we tend to value our logic and reason over relatively arbitrary emotional sensation.

I can appreciate this rara, thank you for pointing this out. I see this in play with the INTJ in my life. Another example of generalizing not being applicable to all.

The quote I was referencing smacked of the pot calling the kettle black - for some - as I am aware of others having so repressed their emotions there is difficulty in knowing what it is they are experiencing; having to sort through them in depth much later to fully glean understanding.

This differs from INFP's in general, who experience the emotion strongly in the moment, recognize what it is and why they are going through it...who then must then make the choice whether to act on it or allow time to pass before making a decision (weighing the emotional implications within the logical components). Which will weigh heaviest in the resulting decision - emotions or logic? In a well balanced temperament, both will come into play.

Understanding emotions and social dynamic interplay is our forte', at least to many - so for someone to say we are emotionally stunted is really quite laughable.

As it has come to fore already in this thread - those with extreme behavior also proved to have extreme highs/lows (such as bi-polar or BPD).

This has not a thing to do with MBTI.

The INTJ/INFP pairing is currently tied for 7th place on this forum. We may have difficulty finding one another within the general populace, but when we do it can be quite a spectacular match. Monte and his wife are a wonderful example of success in this arena.





wotsamattaU added to this post, 10 minutes and 35 seconds later...



...how can we help him communicate with her?

They have to make the other feel safe with them.

When an INFP explains how they arrived at their conclusion (step by step) and reveals their true motivation in life, this greatly helps the INTJ achieve understanding - they will not be as likely to jump to the conclusion they are being judged.

The INTJ will likewise have to do the same. This is more true in the beginning. When both realize the motivations of the other, and understand the basic structure of their thought process - then the walls begin to drop.

You feel safe with one another when you mutually recognize there is no need to have your guard up with this person. For some it is realized early on. For others it will come with time.

Sharing things with one another will accelerate this process.

[rara avis]

They are a "small dose" personality.

Please explain.

OK, I'll have a go at a definition.

Small doses means that the amount of work that seems to fall to an INTJ in a lot of these interactions, in order to anticipate and keep some INFPs from getting upsettingly upset, or hurt, or to keep them from trying to punish you for things that wouldn't bother another NT, can be tiring to the point of unpleasantness.

Interaction which only goes smoothly when you're constantly careful to rein yourself in, or needing to often defend your thoughts or actions is rarely worth the ride. So if you're not really, really into the particular person... you may want to experience them in small doses, instead of all the time.


There are all kinds of varieties within the types, certainly. But MBTI is about generalities, and I think it has to be acknowledged that there can be some strange chemistry between INFPs and INTJs, for better or for worse. There is a draw there... but it is easy for there to be a lot of difficulty as well.

[JohnDoe]

INFP's are interesting. Wotsamattau doesn't strike me as insecure, so its not a general thing :)

[wotsamattaU]

Thank you rara. I never heard that term before! I appreciate your defining it for me.

Thankfully I am not experiencing what you described in my day to day RL NF/NT interactions. I tell them to say what they have to say, they call a spade a spade and how we laugh! The connection is a breath of fresh air for us.

Once I get which angle a person is coming from the necessity for explaining is no longer an issue.

Thanks JohnDoe. :popcorn:

Black op - you just can not stay away from us, confess!

Fear not; though we tred the same sidewalks, and breathe the same air...I shall not seek you out, promise. ;)

[Vagrant]

To Vagrant- Be careful that she is not the damsel in distress, "fixer upper" type. I know this dynamic well as INTJs think they can fix anything....including people. Its nice to feel needed but at what cost? I dont think INFPs are emotionally stable when risk is involved.

From what I can tell, she isn't. I just accidentally stumbled on a land mine without realizing it. I could've done the same with almost any girl, considering how young our relationship still is. :)

Insecurity comes into play when the perceived risk is high. If I like you, then it follows I will care about what you think of me, because ideally I would like my affections returned.

Then that's a good sign for me, hah.

[laserist]

It's not about being out of touch with our feelings, for most of us, so much as controlling how we use and express them. As opposed to being used by them. Yes, sometimes to a fault... but we tend to value our logic and reason over relatively arbitrary emotional sensation.

No, it's about being completely out of touch. I call them stealth walls. You can't see them - there nothing interesting over there. "Oh, so that's what an invisible barrier looks like!"

[Vagrant]

No, it's about being completely out of touch. I call them stealth walls. You can't see them - there nothing interesting over there. "Oh, so that's what an invisible barrier looks like!"

Or, for us gamer nerds, "Damn you invisible walls!"

[rara avis]

No, it's about being completely out of touch. I call them stealth walls. You can't see them - there nothing interesting over there. "Oh, so that's what an invisible barrier looks like!"

OK, OK. :p
Honestly, for myself - I don't know my emotions from a hole in the ground. I couldn't tell you where or how to access them... I'm sure they're around here somewhere, but the closer I look, the less there they are. And on the rare occasion that they do noticeably rear up all on their own, they tend to get automatically choked off before I have the chance to get a good look at them.

But I'm like 90% T, so. I suspect that many INTJs must have more, um, colorfulness in this area than I do, and orient themselves a little more deliberately to a T preference.