Student-Teacher Relationships

[graciela224]

When I was in high school, I went to junior prom with a guy that later married the scatter-brained science teacher, and knew another girl that married her algebra teacher. These relationships appear to baffle and anger those around to witness them. What do you think of teachers marrying, or pursuing friendships with, their students?

My best friend is 19 years old and not romantically involved with her philosophy teacher, but they hang out all the time. He even invites her to parties outside of school. I believe he is married to another woman. Is this a borderline relationship?

I am in my senior year of high school and friendly with a few of my former teachers (all male except for one woman), and have never/would never pursue any romantic relationships with any one of them. I used to live in the same apartment building with one of my teachers, and he would let me in whenever I was sick or wanted to just talk. During those visits, I became friendly with his wife as well. Otherwise, I have never ‘hung out’ with a teacher. However, sometimes I wonder where the 'line' really is. Social networking sites have been a good way to keep in touch, but they present the dilemma of who we consider ‘friends’. We message back and forth about issues going on in my life, and I rarely ask about theirs unless they decide to share. They have been there for me when I’ve been sick, struggling in school or with my family, or when I just have questions about life. Their words are valuable to me, and I see no reason to reject them on the basis of age or authority. I see them as elder brothers or uncles. But how friendly is too friendly? Is it okay to talk to a student online at all? Do you see it as unprofessional, or as a gesture of goodwill? Is it okay to be friendly, but not a friend? Where is that line crossed? Is there a specific age limit for befriending a student – 18 and up only? Is it okay if their wife knows about you? Is it okay to invite a student to a party, over to their place, talk to them through e-mail, or just not okay at all, period?

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[Maayan]

My close friend had a love affair with a professor. It's a big mess and has put a damper on my fantasies of Socratic seduction with a teacher. ... oh, look. I'm not the only person who's thought up that term (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.):

""In general, Socrates attracts the students to him by engaging their vanity. They look for a kind of support from him, and he takes them on a long ride into unknown terrain in which they are receptive because of their need."

I told my uncle about it. He joked that my university used to be known for its lecherous male professors. "When I was your age, I dated a very nice girl whose father was a professor known for getting involved with his students. His first wife was a student -- they had kids and everything -- and then he left his family for another student, whom he also married and with whom he also had children; and then left her for yet another student. I never got his appeal. He wasn't an agreeable person and he wasn't handsome. He was a shriveled old gnome, really."

[speedsuit721]

I dated a professor two years after I graduated. And a teacher I had in high school did some really messed up shit and hit on me a lot. But somehow he kept his job and continued doing the same thing to a new girl every year for six years after I left. Last year he went too far and finally got fired.

As my professor told me, when you're in school, a relationship is out of the question. Once you've graduated, you're fair game. I guess I could understand a college student dating a professor while still in school, but there's a power relationship there, and it certainly wouldn't look good. High school is absolutely off limits, even if a person is 18.

[Octavianus Caesar]

I agree, I think most do it, because it is a power play. "Look at me, I am dating a professor!"

[speedsuit721]

Actually, I don't think the power is in the student's hands. It's in the professor's. The student may think she's going to get better grades or feel important, but the professor ultimately holds sway over her. I think part of the attraction a student feels toward a teacher is the power the teacher has.

[demaugustus]

I was in a small class once in college where one of the students happened to be dating one of the professors teaching the class. It was a three section class with a professor for each section, the professor she was dating was in the third and final section. Before he began his first lecture both of them informed the class that they had been dating for a long period before the class, and asked if everyone was ok with this. His girlfriend was already doing really well in the class and was one of the top students, so no one objected. Things went along quite professionally. I'm sure glad I never made a move on her before I knew she was dating the final professor because that would have been rather embarrassing.

[Octavianus Caesar]

Actually, I don't think the power is in the student's hands. It's in the professor's. The student may think she's going to get better grades or feel important, but the professor ultimately holds sway over her. I think part of the attraction a student feels toward a teacher is the power the teacher has.

Agreed, the power goes back and forth. But I did not stop and think of the power of the professor over the student.

[Monte314]

As a general rule, student-teacher and dating relationships should not run concurrently; this would be professional malpractice.

There might be exceptions: one of the other professors at one of the schools where I teach had his wife in a class (he was the only one that taught that course, and she needed it).

What the department did was have me, as another faculty member, review all of her work after he had graded it, along with the distribution of grades for the other students in the class, to insure the integrity of the process. This seemed to be satisfactory to all.

As I have said before on the Forum, I cc (not bcc) my wife on all non-work email communication I have with women, and all email communication I have with female students.

This is something I have chosen to do as an expression of my complete openness to my wife, and to make sure she knows whatever she wants to know about these relationships. She also has all the passwords for my email, MySpace, AOL, FaceBook, and INTJ accounts (I don't think she's ever used any of them, but I believe it is her right to have access to everything I am doing... I belong to her).

Also, since my students know that I do this, it keeps things "businesslike" with them as well... because, after all, as a mathematician, I am incredibly HOT.

[Rudy]

(I don't think she's ever used any of them, but I believe it is her right to have access to everything I am doing... I belong to her).
I thought you belonged to God... do they have a timeshare?

To address the question, high school is absolute no no. A college student dating a professor is only acceptable if that professor is not actively teaching the student, or reviewing their work. Even then it's a bit "iffy."

[graciela224]

I think that it is ultimately the student's responsibility to stay out of wayward relationships, such as student-teacher ones, although the majority of the blame falls on the instructor. I think it is not power that attracts a student to a teacher, but the security of someone in authority that is more knowledgable and experienced. In any case, that's the feeling I get from the relationships with my teachers - someone is looking out for me. I can see how a student that is unstable or insecure (not uncommon in teenagers) could be easily attracted to that security.

Monte, I think that the open communication you have with your wife is an excellent idea. It makes me uncomfortable to be unsure whether or not my friend's teacher's wife knows that her husband is hanging out with a young female student. Or whether the e-mails I share about my family life are shared with someone else besides the intended, trusted audience.

I wouldn't really consider the relationship I have with my teachers a real 'friendship', because there definitely is that difference in authority, and therefore the communication we have can never be completely straightforward and equal. But oftentimes kids need a trusted adult to talk to, and it won't necessarily be a parent. At least, that's how I feel about talking to teachers outside of school.

PS. So yes, I agree with Maayan's definition of Socratic seduction. ^^

It is generally agreed that student-teacher romantic relationships are wrong, but I am curious to know what you think in general of outside-the-classroom interaction. When does a mentorship become a friendship, a friendship become a relationship, and so on? How can we see the 'warning signs'? And where should teachers draw the line on communication?

[Harmony]

I've never really known anyone that dated a teacher while they were under their instruction... However, I did run into a former teacher and a girl that graduated a year ahead of me at a bar one night. I thought it was kind of awkward, but I know they didn't date back when she was in school because she was hung up on another guy (dating him).

As long as the student is no longer under their instruction, I don't see a problem with it.

[DDL]

A short while back I was discussing student/professor relationships with my physics teacher. He told me that back when he was at Cornell University, one of his physics professors ended up marrying one of the students there and he had to leave the university as a result. I asked my physics teacher why he would have done that since it seemed a rather foolish move to make for someone obviously very brilliant. First he said, "Well, why does anybody get married?" but that didn't satisfy me, so he continued, "My professor had been married to his housekeeper but there had been nothing romantic to the relationship. His housekeeper wasn't particularly well-educated and they didn't get along very well. The student he ended up marrying shared similar interests with him and, unlike his housekeeper, was intelligent enough to keep up with him."
My teacher didn't condone the professor's decision, but he understood it. I'm certain that professors have varying, personal reasons for having relationships with their students, but I do wonder if perhaps a common factor is that their students share their interests and they find this to be the trait that attracts them the most.

In reference to whether professors and students could be friends, I think it's all right as long as the friendship doesn't go from being innocent to a relationship. If both parties are willing to be friends and the professor doesn't mind "surrendering" some of his authority by becoming more informal with the person, I don't see what the problem is. However, when you start seeing each other a lot privately, getting more intimate in discussions, and enjoying the company of the other more and more, I think it's time to back off.

[Shy18]

I have a dilemma. There are two teachers in my high school, both male, that seem to be interested in me. I don’t know if their attention is romantic, probably not as one of them is married, at least I hope it’s not. They keep looking at me and it is a bit confusing, I don’t know how to react. Two years ago when I first noticed, I was curious. Why are they staring? I never approached any of them about this since I was afraid they would deny ever doing it and thus I would make an idiot of myself.
After some time I stopped looking them in the eye, I stopped looking at them at all. I felt extremely confused and ashamed. I kept asking myself what they would want to do with me. As you can probably guess they didn’t stop. There are times when they stop, maybe because they feel discouraged by my unresponsiveness, but it does never last long.
In two months I graduate, after that I’m leaving school and have no idea what do with the two of them. I respect them both. One is a Polish teacher and the other is Philosophy teacher. I think I would like to pursue a relationship with both, though nothing romantic, and yet I’m afraid. While they are my teachers, any form of closer relationship is definitely out of question; I have my rules I follow and I keep to them, regardless how much I want to break them. But the graduation is only two months away and I can’t stop asking myself if maybe I lose something really important, something really valuable by acting indifferent towards them? After three years of this, let’s call it a play, they both seem resigned. And I have no idea what to do now?
I don’t expect an answer, just what do you think about this? Are you friends with your teachers? Are you not afraid that after he or she gets to know you better, they will find you dull? Because this is what I fear- rejection.

[Rudy]

I don’t expect an answer, just what do you think about this? Are you friends with your teachers? Are you not afraid that after he or she gets to know you better, they will find you dull? Because this is what I fear- rejection.
I don't mean this to be derogatory, but if one if them is interested in a relationship with you, it's probably romance they have in mind. There are definitely exceptions, but not many teachers are interested in forming long lasting friendships with their graduating students. If you've impressed them with your wit or intelligence, that may be a different matter.

[DDL]

I don’t expect an answer, just what do you think about this? Are you friends with your teachers? Are you not afraid that after he or she gets to know you better, they will find you dull? Because this is what I fear- rejection.

I think you should try just conversing with them easily to see what they say. I don't know how much you interact with them but that's probably the easiest way to "test the waters".
I just read what Rudy wrote and I tend to agree with him. Still, you can't be 100% sure until you find out for yourself from the individuals in question.

I'm decent friends with my English teacher who is convinced I walk on water simply because I'm her best student. Every day she makes a point of telling me how wonderful I am. Despite how this makes me uncomfortable, we get along well and I suspect we'll keep in touch after graduation.

I'd like to think that I'm friends with my physics teacher because he's my favorite, but I'd consider our relationship more of a solid acquaintanceship rather than a true friendship. I admit to fearing that if he got to know me better he'd consider me dull and become less cordial than he already is; despite this, I realize that the only way to prove to him I'm not dull is by trying to relax around him and demonstrating how well I understand the physics he's taught me.

[Pandemonium]

I was at bar once when I was 18 and my chemistry professor appeared and we both got severely drunk and had one damn crazy night. I don't think I have had an intimate relationship with any teachers. In grade twelve, one was very interested in my love life......was a bit weird.

[graciela224]

In reference to whether professors and students could be friends, I think it's all right as long as the friendship doesn't go from being innocent to a relationship. If both parties are willing to be friends and the professor doesn't mind "surrendering" some of his authority by becoming more informal with the person, I don't see what the problem is. However, when you start seeing each other a lot privately, getting more intimate in discussions, and enjoying the company of the other more and more, I think it's time to back off.

I think it's good that you bring up the point of teachers 'surrendering' authority while keeping reasonable boundaries.

I have a dilemma. There are two teachers in my high school, both male, that seem to be interested in me. I don’t know if their attention is romantic, probably not as one of them is married, at least I hope it’s not. They keep looking at me and it is a bit confusing, I don’t know how to react. Two years ago when I first noticed, I was curious. Why are they staring? I never approached any of them about this since I was afraid they would deny ever doing it and thus I would make an idiot of myself.
After some time I stopped looking them in the eye, I stopped looking at them at all. I felt extremely confused and ashamed. I kept asking myself what they would want to do with me. As you can probably guess they didn’t stop. There are times when they stop, maybe because they feel discouraged by my unresponsiveness, but it does never last long.
In two months I graduate, after that I’m leaving school and have no idea what do with the two of them. I respect them both. One is a Polish teacher and the other is Philosophy teacher. I think I would like to pursue a relationship with both, though nothing romantic, and yet I’m afraid. While they are my teachers, any form of closer relationship is definitely out of question; I have my rules I follow and I keep to them, regardless how much I want to break them. But the graduation is only two months away and I can’t stop asking myself if maybe I lose something really important, something really valuable by acting indifferent towards them? After three years of this, let’s call it a play, they both seem resigned. And I have no idea what to do now?
I don’t expect an answer, just what do you think about this? Are you friends with your teachers? Are you not afraid that after he or she gets to know you better, they will find you dull? Because this is what I fear- rejection.

Actually, I had a science teacher that was incredibly sketchy - asked me to go places with him alone, favored me in class, tried to get me to help after school, etc. If you get a creepy vibe from either one, I'd suggest you back off. On the other hand, you could always ask for an e-mail address to keep in touch and talk more about education. Personally, I think that a great deal can be learned from a teacher so long as boundaries are kept.

However, I don't consider myself truly 'friends' with the teachers I keep in touch with. I cannot be straightforward with them and say what I think all the time because of the difference in age and authority.

I think that Maayan originally brought up a good point - student/teacher relationships are built around vanity. If you fear rejection, then I don't think it is such a good idea to keep in touch with your teachers. Your unstable confidence may cause you to say or do something inappropriate.

[Shy18]

I don't mean this to be derogatory, but if one if them is interested in a relationship with you, it's probably romance they have in mind. There are definitely exceptions, but not many teachers are interested in forming long lasting friendships with their graduating students. If you've impressed them with your wit or intelligence, that may be a different matter.

I am nothing special, not overly intelligent, I hate jokes and I’m overweight. I doubt their motives could be romantic.

I think you should try just conversing with them easily to see what they say. I don't know how much you interact with them but that's probably the easiest way to "test the waters".

The thing is that I started to avoid them sometime in my first year. I can’t seem to relax around them. I can’t seem to think around them. They make me nervous, I feel insecure and under inspection. My hands tremble, my heart is beating frantically in my chest. And I always say the most stupidest things ever. I realize, I have some problems with my self-esteem and it’s driving me crazy to think how much I lose because of it.

I admit to fearing that if he got to know me better he'd consider me dull and become less cordial than he already is; despite this, I realize that the only way to prove to him I'm not dull is by trying to relax around him and demonstrating how well I understand the physics he's taught me.

I think that the more emotionally involved you are, the more irrational fears seem to rise in you. But it’s hard to fight them.

[DDL]

The thing is that I started to avoid them sometime in my first year. I can’t seem to relax around them. I can’t seem to think around them. They make me nervous, I feel insecure and under inspection. My hands tremble, my heart is beating frantically in my chest. And I always say the most stupidest things ever. I realize, I have some problems with my self-esteem and it’s driving me crazy to think how much I lose because of it.
I think that the more emotionally involved you are, the more irrational fears seem to rise in you. But it’s hard to fight them.

Believe me when I say that I understand what you mean. I used to get absolutely terrified when I went to talk to my physics teacher. I wasn't afraid of him in the least; I was afraid of doing dumb things around him. And trust me, I did! I still remember the time I dove to catch something with my pencil in my hand and ended up leaving a long graphite streak down his khaki pants leg.
But then I thought to myself, "I'm graduating soon. If I don't loosen up and talk to him like a normal person now I'm never going to get anywhere." I'll still say stupid things sometimes (especially when we're discussing electrical currents, it's not coming to me like it should be) but I remind myself that everybody will, from time to time, say stupid things. I know it's difficult to forget yourself and act naturally when you feel like you have to "prove yourself" to a teacher you like because you respect them and seek their approval. But the only way to really deal with it is to interact with them and find for yourself that they aren't going to deem you the most unintelligent person on the planet for making one mistake. As teachers, they see mistakes all the time.

Awhile back, I performed somewhat poorly on a test over machines and levers. I was beating myself up over it like crazy. I had, of course, studied intensely for very long periods of time for quite awhile before the test had come and I'd felt that I'd been ready for it. When I got a lower grade than I expected, I freaked out. Somehow I just knew that my teacher was going to kill me for it.
I also knew that I'd have to talk to him about it so he could explain what I did wrong before midterms. I couldn't go into midterms not knowing what I was supposed to do.
I was absolutely mortified to have to go up to him after school and have him fetch my test paper. He'd see the grade and associate it with me and surely he'd express some feeling of disappointment or irritation (trust me, he frequently doesn't hesitate to let you know if you're being an idiot). Eventually the time came and we sat down together, my test in hand. My mouth was dry, I was sweating, my stomach was doing back flips, and I was waiting for him to start grousing about how stupid I had been.
We got started on a question and he asked me something about it and I couldn't think. I just stared at it, unable to do anything. Getting frustrated, he pointed at a previous question that had the answer he wanted in it, his tone sharpening. I turned bright red, certain he had deemed me an idiot.

Did the world end? Not at all. He suddenly realized that I was about to die on the spot, understanding how horrible it was for me to earn a lower grade, and he ended up being very gentle and kind about the entire thing. After we were done talking about it, we even got into a friendly conversation about school and physics that lasted for quite awhile.

By showing him how much doing well and understanding the material meant to me, a passing mistake didn't matter as much to him.
(I hope some of that was helpful to you.)

[rara avis]

Much as I personally love the idea of, um, "corrupting" authority figures, I think a very personal relationship between a teacher and student is unprofessional on both parts, and should be avoided until the professional relationship is concluded.

[Gabrielle]

I personally exclude teachers from my target zone (and there was a case I wish I hadn't), primarily because we'd never be equals. Instead of having a division of labour, my "teacher" would be the one imparting with the knowledge, and me, the "student", the one receiving it, making it quite a one-way relationship. It just won't work for me. And since I hold all teachers as my teachers no matter what (even after graduating), they would automatically be ruled out from my dating zone. My parents are paying my tuition so they'd be on equal terms with the teacher (knowledge purchased and bestowed upon me as gift - the exchange is technically between my parents and the said teacher).

Unfortunately I don't even have that kind of teacher at the moment. My professors are all old and decrepit and refuse to retire, because then they'd croak it.

[Monte314]

Reading through these posts, you see the confusion and fear that the ambiguity of a relationship with a teacher/professor engenders...

... when you add the teacher's authority into the mix, you see how vulnerable students in such situations are, and how easily they could be manipulated. The unavoidable disparity inherent in such an unbalanced relationship makes it dangerous, and unethical.

[JohnDoe]

As a general rule, student-teacher and dating relationships should not run concurrently; this would be professional malpractice.

This is one of those questions where I can't believe that problems arise often enough that someone actually started a thread on it. I mean, it clearly does, but it shouldn't! The end all of the topic should pretty be much what Monte said.

[speedsuit721]

I'm starting to sense a pattern here. It seems a lot of us have had teachers that were inordinately interested in us. Do you suppose this happens with all personality types? Or is there something about an INTJ that attracts teachers?

[Gabrielle]

My guess is that we were closer than other students with some of the teachers. I was very close with one of my Quant lecturers last year, for example. We went to a conference in Paris together (accompanying this shlock of a prof) and since there were no vacancies available in the hotel, we had to share a room. He was young, he was interested in stuff I was interested in, and I probably would have asked him out if he wasn't a lecturer.

[LvHmBirth]

I'm starting to sense a pattern here. It seems a lot of us have had teachers that were inordinately interested in us. Do you suppose this happens with all personality types? Or is there something about an INTJ that attracts teachers?

Of all the personality types, too, the INTJ tends to be the one who disregards authority just for authority's sake. Since the INTJ-authority line isn't as clearly defined as some other personality types, I can see how those in authority may be more tempted to test the boundaries of the teacher-student relationship.

I do think that Monte (I think, sorry if I mis-attributed) brings up a good point about the teacher-student power differential. If the power differential is to be disrupted, it's time for the teacher (and yes, I think the responsibility is primarily the teacher's) to find a new teacher for the student.

[Ender]

I've never had a problem with "love" relationships (for lack of a better way of putting it), or seen them, involving teachers in my experience. However, I dislike the Student-Teacher set up in general. Don't me wrong, I understand its purpose and I understand why it needs to be the way it does. But, it doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating to know that no matter what you do, you can't exactly even "befriend" a teacher and while you might be cordial or friendly, the fact that there's this invisible line you shouldn't be crossing makes it all seem so fake and contrived. And insincerity is one of my biggest pet peeves.

[LvHmBirth]

But, it doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating to know that no matter what you do, you can't exactly even "befriend" a teacher and while you might be cordial or friendly, the fact that there's this invisible line you shouldn't be crossing makes it all seem so fake and contrived. And insincerity is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Why be insincere? An honest, "I'd like to pursue a friendship/relationship with you" and a change in teacher would allow the relationship to continue. (Assuming we're talking about all parties being of legal age for relationships, etc.)

[Ender]

Why be insincere? An honest, "I'd like to pursue a friendship/relationship with you" and a change in teacher would allow the relationship to continue. (Assuming we're talking about all parties being of legal age for relationships, etc.)
I'm not even talking about relationships though. I'm just talking about basic friendships and how it doesn't really feel natural to be friends with a teacher when you know that you always have to keep a certain distance. I don't think I'm being exceptionally clear in my meaning right now.

[graciela224]

I dislike the Student-Teacher set up in general. Don't me wrong, I understand its purpose and I understand why it needs to be the way it does. But, it doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating to know that no matter what you do, you can't exactly even "befriend" a teacher and while you might be cordial or friendly, the fact that there's this invisible line you shouldn't be crossing makes it all seem so fake and contrived. And insincerity is one of my biggest pet peeves.

I understand exactly what you're talking about. In particular, history teachers are always having to walk a fine line when discussing current events. They want to be careful not present a personal bias, though it would make classroom discussion and debate more interesting and lively if the teacher would open up to the students a little more. There's also a sense that the subject matter is more important when you value the person speaking to you. (Obviously not in a romantic way, but in a generally caring, friendly manner.)