stirnerian concepts: egoism is different from egotism

[deicruxified]

... i'll elaborate further. i just made the thread so that i won't lose the thought. but just to give you a teaser, this thread is existential philosophy which deals with the self or the ego.

so to use as jump of point, let's have some assignments to reflect on:

1. what is ego?
2. what do you know about egoism/egotism? are they the similar/different?
3. what is selfishness?

[stasis]

Hasn't Rand covered this already? I'm not sure what exactly it is you mean by "egotism," and I'll wait for your elaboration there before commenting further, but presumably, you're attempting to delineate between the two in order to eventually portray one as positive or potentially positive and the other as something which embodies the popular contempt directed at "egoism" in general?

[Danellian]

Not sure how you are distinguishing the two, but I see both as involving a contraction in the self-image toward specific traits for comparison to determine superiority and inferiority with other people.

[stasis]

Not sure how you are distinguishing the two, but I see both as involving a contraction in the self-image toward specific traits for comparison to determine superiority and inferiority with other people.
I don't think rational egoism deals with ascertaining the qualities of others relative to oneself, and particularly not with respect to establishing esteem through superiority or inferiority; these concepts are predicated upon the social status of others, which would therefore require others in order to manifest self-esteem. That'd be a fundamental contradiction in terms, wouldn't it?

[Tsuru]

... i'll elaborate further. i just made the thread so that i won't lose the thought. but just to give you a teaser, this thread is existential philosophy which deals with the self or the ego.

so to use as jump of point, let's have some assignments to reflect on:

1. what is ego?
2. what do you know about egoism/egotism? are they the similar/different?
3. what is selfishness?

I'm not particularly feeling very philosophical today. :(
But here goes:

1) Your mind. Your soul. Whatever you wish to call it. It's the concepts within your brain that makes you more than a body with sensory input and instincts. The sum of your experiences and memories and thoughts and attitudes and feelings that creates a coherent whole makes you a unique entity. :o

2) It seems to be a semantic thing which I don't quite understand. The general impression I have seems to be that egoism is *rational* self interest while egoTism tends to be more irrational, personally destructive behavior - expecting things of others of which you have no right to expect (the sort of "gimmie gimmie gimmie" way of life, so to speak). Maybe the key difference between the two lies in understanding that everyone else is a sovereign entity existing for their own sake just like you, or not. ^_^

3) Living your life for your own happiness, or believing in the fundamental right to exist for your own sake - as opposed living under the philosophy that you exist to sacrifice yourself for duty, the tribe, "god", or humanity in general as a sort of vague abstraction in order to have worth as a person.

Yes, I've obviously read a lot of Ayn Rand. -_- :P

[Danellian]

Tsuru, I have a question for you: In your view, are the pure consciousnesses of all human beings distinct from one another (even if they are identical, which is another argument), or, are we, once we strip ourselves of all personality traits, literally, one being?

* Danellian added to this post, 0 minutes and 50 seconds later...

Stasis, you may be right. Could you tell me more about rational egoism?

[Tsuru]

Tsuru, I have a question for you: In your view, are the pure consciousnesses of all human beings distinct from one another (even if they are identical, which is another argument), or, are we, once we strip ourselves of all personality traits, literally, one being?

Negative. I don't think we are all fundamentally one in terms of an underlying collective consciousness or anything. We obviously have deep-rooted commonalities of the psyche due to shared basic physiology, environment, evolution / drives (don't die and reproduce!), (some) fundamental common experiences, ect. But our minds are rooted purely in the physical (body-brain) in my eyes, and I can't really grasp at what the alternative would be.

If my body dies, what I am dies with it (unless I get my consciousness converted to binary and put into a computer or a robot at some point - *CROSSES FINGERS FOR LASER EYES AND CHAINSAW HANDS*)

At the risk of seeming a bit overly simplistic, where exactly would a collective unconsciousness be STORED? You know, in a metaphysical sense. ;P

[blueback]

If I remember correctly, egoism is self-constructive and egotism is self-destructive.

[deicruxified]

Hasn't Rand covered this already? I'm not sure what exactly it is you mean by "egotism," and I'll wait for your elaboration there before commenting further, but presumably, you're attempting to delineate between the two in order to eventually portray one as positive or potentially positive and the other as something which embodies the popular contempt directed at "egoism" in general?
stirner was way before nietzsche... way before rand... but was not that known because he only had a few writings. he's a left-winged hegelian alongside with marx who happens to be one of his colleagues.

on "egotism", stirner did mention terms such as "egoism" and "egotism". the later he used to label the solipsisic people who have their own "wheels in the head" also known as attachments and pre-conceived notions i.e. religious fanatics. the former was similar to that of nietzsche's "ubermensch". some scholars even said that nietzsche pirated stirner's work. i've seen a book, i'll ask my friend for the title and author since he has it. :) if you read stirner works, it's as if you're also reading nietzsche. however nietzsche never sided with anarchy.

:edit:
on rand, they are similar in some aspects however, stirner's ego is corporeal. :) a lot of my batchmates have done stirner-rand papers but they fail in the end because of their concepts of "ego".





deicruxified added to this post, 7 minutes and 14 seconds later...

If I remember correctly, egoism is self-constructive and egotism is self-destructive.
bingo...

unfortunately i left the book at home so i guess i'll be delayed in explaining a lot of things. but as of the moment, let's keep our thinking juices flowing.

[The Many]

1. what is ego?

- "I" in Latin. Apart from that it means too many different things to really be worth defining here. Generally speaking though, it is "oneself".

2. what do you know about egoism/egotism? are they the similar/different?

There are quite a few various forms of egoism; for instance you have Rand and objectivism, you have Nietzsche (and Stirner, as deicruxified enjoys mentioning - a question though, how can you relate Nietzsche to a left wing German idealist more than that they have a few concepts in common? From what I read about Stirner they seemed to be quite different), you even have psychologists, etc, etc. Egotism however seems to be to exaggerate ones own ideas and thoughts to a degree where it is hurtful, whilst (most forms of) egoism seems to be about living for oneself.

3. what is selfishness?

According to contemporary definition, selfishness is usually to act in ones own interest whilst discounting others. According to others it is acting in accordance with ones rational self-interest to gain as much profit as possible.

If you ask me though, all actions are necessarily selfish. For, all human beings do in all situations always act according to what they - themselves - consider to be the most favourable option. Of course, this may very well mean doing a "selfless" thing since this makes them feel good about themselves (so it's not particularly selfless in the end anyway), or even to hurt themselves since that is what they consider themselves best off doing due to, for example, thinking that they deserve punishment or simply to revel in some depressive emotion.