Honor code violation

[esialb]

Myself and two other students were discussing CS assignments a few minutes ago, and the conversation got around to submission of hard copies. In the class I'm in right now, assignments must (in part) be submitted as printed copies. An example would be the latest one, where one of the files is a program's source code, which is to be printed.

So then the topic turned to another instructor who requires hard copies, and doesn't actually run the program. In his specifications he says to write in your external documentation about what doesn't work so you can get partial credit. Apparently this classmate of mine lied on his assignments. He said they worked when they didn't, which necessitates faking the program output as well. Massive honor code violation for the school I'm at.

It's long past, and I don't have any particular urge to raise a stink. Live and let live, after all. But I'm shaken. I take things like honor codes seriously, and seeing cheating of that level on major projects hurts.

Once again, I've lost a little more faith in humanity.

[Rei]

I used to be appalled when I hear of such things.

I think perhaps I've become numb to it all because it doesn't seem to bother me anymore. I just expect that these people will continue doing this, and risk more and more and eventually get caught and pay for it big time.

I'd personally never take such a risk. I'd rather work my ass off and hand something in that was 'true' and my blood sweat and tears, get what I get, than hand in a fake and get perfect. I don't think I can live with that on my conscience. (Okay, I'll probably get over it eventually; but I secretly believe in karma... and so I never stray too far from 'the path')

[The Rose]

... Once again, I've lost a little more faith in humanity.Yeah. I hate when that happens.

[rwyatt365]

I am not so much hurt by such violations as disappointed by the lack of personal integrity of the violator. I come to think of people that do that kind of thing as lazy, deceitful and not worthy of my company and I do whatever I can to remove myself from their sphere of influence.

[Max T]

Yeah- Like Rei I've become a little numb to such deceptions too.
Of course, having seen so much deception there comes a point when you can no longer attribute it to humanity at large- else you'd never interact with others.
So I try to differentiate the individual from the mass by steering well clear of the deceiver.


It's why I respond here to deceitfulness:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
... just file away the lie with that individual and don't forget it.


Quite apart from anything, you have to remember lies which take up valuable mental space (for positive things)!
That cheater not only didn't technically pass the course, but he also has to remember that he didn't pass to sustain the deceit for some time. What a mental burden.

* Max T added to this post, 2 minutes and 51 seconds later...

I do whatever I can to remove myself from their sphere of influence.


... their ever decreasing sphere of influence!
(not just due to your avoidance and loss of influence through you, but through others too, since I imagine a liar must have difficulty knowing when to stop).

[Rei]

...
Of course, having seen so much deception there comes a point when you can no longer attribute it to humanity at large- else you'd never interact with others.
So I try to differentiate the individual from the mass by steering well clear of the deceiver.
...

That's a good point.
I almost never attribute things an individual does to the whole of society.
I also look at acts on it own (and judge it's "correctness") independently from the person who performs the act. Whether I like the person or hate the person, if his deed was bad I will deem it bad and vice versa. Similarly, one bad act does not make the person a 'bad' person; nor does one good act make a person a "good" person.

I wouldn't actively remove the person from my life though. I don't tend to actively build or break down relationships with acquaintances. The ones I have are the ones I have on my palette/in my toolbox. Despite his/her dishonourable actions, he/she may have good attributes in other areas and may be of use in the future. I will however, be careful of what favours I will do for him/her and when to trust him/her as his tendency to lie may lead me, unknowingly into trouble.

[esialb]

I am not so much hurt by such violations as disappointed by the lack of personal integrity of the violator. I come to think of people that do that kind of thing as lazy, deceitful and not worthy of my company and I do whatever I can to remove myself from their sphere of influence.


The person in question I already had some disdain for. I've grown wary of discussing any kind of homework with him at, say, the very beginning of class, because he will instantly change his answer before submitting the assignment. I can't really remove myself from their presence, other than that the semester is almost over.

They've basically lost all respect in my eyes.

[logan235711]

I'm sorry to hear that : ( Good luck toughing it out until the end of the semester--hopefully you won't have to have many more classes with them.

[Hdier]

Once again, I've lost a little more faith in humanity.

You still have faith in them to lose? I don't, and each new thing that happens (such as the recent Nebraska shoothing at Westroads mall) seems to make it less and less likely that I will.

Though, I must admit, America seems pretty good at Civil Rights once they have someone bring it to the Supreme Court...

[Ijz]

I wouldn't feel bad at all, other than feeling sorry for the guy. He may have beaten the system but he's really just fooling himself. In the end, its always the knowledge that counts, even after graduation...

I had a similar experience with a classmate myself. This classmate had asked me to help him with an assignment. I didn't really have time for it so I gave him my code so he could learn from it and do it himself. Not for a second had it occurred to me that he would copy the code. Which was exactly what he did and then turned it in (also on paper). Of course the teacher found out and we had to explain. I explained he had copied my code and the other guy confirmed that he had. Still the teachers thought it would be a good thing to punish us both with extra assignments. That really pissed me off so much and definitely made me a lot more weary about certain individuals....

[Rei]

I wouldn't feel bad at all, other than feeling sorry for the guy. He may have beaten the system but he's really just fooling himself. In the end, its always the knowledge that counts, even after graduation...

I had a similar experience with a classmate myself. This classmate had asked me to help him with an assignment. I didn't really have time for it so I gave him my code so he could learn from it and do it himself. Not for a second had it occurred to me that he would copy the code. Which was exactly what he did and then turned it in (also on paper). Of course the teacher found out and we had to explain. I explained he had copied my code and the other guy confirmed that he had. Still the teachers thought it would be a good thing to punish us both with extra assignments. That really pissed me off so much and definitely made me a lot more weary about certain individuals....

Quite true...
he can cheat all he wants in assignments and such... but he's still screwed for exams (much higher risk of being caught even if he tries to cheat).

At least the teacher didn't plain give you zero. It happened to me once, and the teacher said that I shouldn't have lent it to the other person in the first place. She gave us both zero for the assignment, and I didn't even have a chance to make up for it.

[banzai]

Erm... you have faith in humanity? I'm sorry...

I wouldn't respond much differently to a baby rapist than a petty thief. People are stupid and fucked up and it doesn't surprise me any more, they just all have their different poisons.

I don't believe in karma, but I do believe that people will risk when they think can win, and I hope that the consequences are severe and likely enough to occur that people will get spanked and convince them otherwise.

If they don't get caught, then they win, and good for them. Morals are subjective, you can't blame people for doing what benefits them when they're able to get away with it. That's a problem with how we're preventing what we consider wrong, not with people taking advantage of it. People are always going to have some degree of personal values, but we can't rely on that alone to keep society in order.

To think otherwise is nice, but a bit naive in my opinion. A lot of the "honor system" does have de-facto consequences, but it certainly shouldn't be trusted in and of itself.

[Paul V]

I used to be appalled when I hear of such things.

I think perhaps I've become numb to it all because it doesn't seem to bother me anymore. I just expect that these people will continue doing this, and risk more and more and eventually get caught and pay for it big time.

I'd personally never take such a risk. I'd rather work my ass off and hand something in that was 'true' and my blood sweat and tears, get what I get, than hand in a fake and get perfect. I don't think I can live with that on my conscience. (Okay, I'll probably get over it eventually; but I secretly believe in karma... and so I never stray too far from 'the path')

I have to agree with this statement to the last dot. From "Used to be appalled" to "I believe in karma" (although I don't believe it secretly, and I believe my own personal interpretation of it; without reincarnation, for example), passing through "I expect people to continue doing this" and "I'd rather work my ass off and hand something that was true".

zygemniw, if I were you, I'd stop worrying. They'll get what they deserve eventually. Wait a few years when they try to develop software and fail at detecting their own errors.

[Rei]

I have to agree with this statement to the last dot. From "Used to be appalled" to "I believe in karma" (although I don't believe it secretly, and I believe my own personal interpretation of it; without reincarnation, for example), passing through "I expect people to continue doing this" and "I'd rather work my ass off and hand something that was true".

zygemniw, if I were you, I'd stop worrying. They'll get what they deserve eventually. Wait a few years when they try to develop software and fail at detecting their own errors.

Yes, minus the reincarnation etc etc.

But I think work is there for a reason. Evaluations are there for a reason. I'd really much rather know how well I'm meeting the expectations than just getting a good mark and pass. Just passing only works for now, where as actually meeting expectations lets you continue and move forward.


*must stop reiterating my thoughts* *band head against desk*

[Paul V]

Yes, minus the reincarnation etc etc.

But I think work is there for a reason. Evaluations are there for a reason. I'd really much rather know how well I'm meeting the expectations than just getting a good mark and pass. Just passing only works for now, where as actually meeting expectations lets you continue and move forward.


*must stop reiterating my thoughts* *band head against desk*

*must stop agreeing with people that think like me* *must overcome the surprise of seeing someone similar-minded*

By the way, who here still has faith in humanity (not counting INTJs as a part of it)?

[stasis]

It's long past, and I don't have any particular urge to raise a stink. Live and let live, after all. But I'm shaken. I take things like honor codes seriously, and seeing cheating of that level on major projects hurts.

Once again, I've lost a little more faith in humanity.
Whether or not this bothers me would depend upon the student being sufficiently knowledgeable and capable of doing the work. If he (or she) is, I don't see that it matters. He hasn't jumped through a hoop designed to ascertain that he possesses a proficiency that he possesses. Big deal. If on the other hand he (or she) is incompetent, it becomes more troublesome in that an incompetent person will be credentialed. I tend to take honor seriously as well, but only when applied with specificity to function. Honor for honor's sake is in my opinion a meaningless idealism. And idealists always end up in tears.

That said, I've never cheated on a test in my life. Although I do oftentimes resent them.

[blueback]

Once again, I've lost a little more faith in humanity.

Just one more reason to avoid faith in anything.

My school (a military academy) has an honor code but we include a toleration clause. We not only promise to be honorable we promise not to tolerate the dishonorable acts of our peers. We can get probation or expulsion for doing something dishonorable, which includes the dishonorable act of allowing someone to get away with something dishonorable.

The thing about capitalism is that it rewards risk takers. Lying, cheating and stealing are risks that competent people can use to their advantage. It's really easy to move on after being caught doing something dishonorable, but not illegal, because the few people who care aren't willing to talk about it. America loves people who get things done and we don't actually care too much about how they do it. We say we do, but we hardly ever act on the values we claim are important to us.

By way of example, the Bush administration is pretty much the most misleading and uncooperative group of people who have ever run the country, but no one's pushing to investigate them. Clinton, on the other hand, lied about getting a blow job and almost got kicked out of office. So, what the country is saying is that they can barely tolerate the outrage of a public official having sex but a group of public officials who refuse to take responsibility for their actions are okay.

[rwyatt365]

The thing about capitalism is that it rewards risk takers. Lying, cheating and stealing are risks that competent people can use to their advantage. It's really easy to move on after being caught doing something dishonorable, but not illegal, because the few people who care aren't willing to talk about it. America loves people who get things done and we don't actually care too much about how they do it. We say we do, but we hardly ever act on the values we claim are important to us.

Good point there. America does not value "honor". By that, I mean that there is no reward for honor in American society. As you've stated, the capitalist economy rewards (values) those that "get things done" irrespective of the means. The "Robber Barons", the Carpetbaggers, the legitimized Crime Lords, the Enron thiefs - they all received massive monetary rewards for less than honorable activities, and in some regards are lionized for their methods. Whereas the guy that saves his company from an enemy attack gets a medal and a handshake from the President and his next unemployment check.

That's why people feel completely justified in committing dishonorable acts - the rewards and accolades are there!

[Rei]

*must stop agreeing with people that think like me* *must overcome the surprise of seeing someone similar-minded*

By the way, who here still has faith in humanity (not counting INTJs as a part of it)?
Yes it's funny how I still haven't gotten over the *gasp someone agrees with me*

Anyway,
I still have faith in humanity.
There is always a possibility of improvement. We just need some better leaders... or... we just need the smart, more honourable etc people to be willing to step up and lead.


I appreciate the efficiency of (US of) America though... compared to Canada.
Canada is way too laid back, things that should only take days take months to get done; very few people are motivated, and those that are move to the States :thinking:

[The Rose]

...By the way, who here still has faith in humanity (not counting INTJs as a part of it)?I'm a little confused with this question.
I don't understand the impact of the parenthetical statement on the question.

But secondly, I'm pretty sure I've heard that in order to have a relatively normal and healthy emotional life, you have to trust people. So in my opinion, that requires us to have some degree of faith in humanity.

The way I keep my faith in humanity from going down the tubes is: I don't watch the news.

[Rei]

If you put it that way... why have faith in anything at all? Why do we need faith? Does it matter what I think of the world? In the grand scheme of things... no, not really. Things will function (or not), life will go on whether I have faith in it or not. I find it better not to have an expectation of anything but yourself, and so I pretty much only have faith in myself... if anything.

As Jack Sparrow would say:
"Me? I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly stupid"

At least you can always trust humanity... to be human...

If the whole world is "bad", and you don't like it, don't be like the world. Just remember to adjust your expectations of the world and stop expecting what you think is "good".

*continues to ramble in own head, trying to find the point of the ramble*

[Drayakir]

Bah. I've come to the conclusion that morals, ethics, honors, etc., are self-imposed limiting factors that humans impose on themselves for reasons I can't really fathom.

I mean, if you cheat, you're more likely to get a higher grade, higher GPA, better chance of getting into a good grad school, and start on a well-paying job earlier. If you were to squeal on your friend, he'd get in trouble- but you'd look better, because you turned someone in, and that means that you probably don't cheat.

[Hdier]

I would agree, except that having faith in something that is trying to improve is fruitful. The problem with humanity is not that they can't improve, but they are not willing to try. Once I see humanity as a whole regaining morals and selflessness, I will start to regain faith in them (and maybe someday I might even use them in the first person!).

[rwyatt365]

I mean, if you cheat, you're more likely to get a higher grade, higher GPA, better chance of getting into a good grad school, and start on a well-paying job earlier. If you were to squeal on your friend, he'd get in trouble- but you'd look better, because you turned someone in, and that means that you probably don't cheat.
And so that mythical "you"-person gets that well-paid job on the basis of credentials that were obtained as a result of cheating, knowing little but professing much. And they become an arrogant, pompous boss who has no clue about anything because their knowledge is on paper, and not in their head. And the real you has to work for this jerk because he got the job before you did. And so now you're in a dead-end job, working for a creep that has 1/10 of your knowledge and understanding.

But all is right with the world…

[Hdier]

Why do I have a feeling that you have a boss like this...

[rwyatt365]

Why do I have a feeling that you have a boss like this...
Not now, but several times in the past, the last one being the "gentleman" that suggested my layoff to upper management from a previous position.

Am I bitter? No, can't you tell? :irked: :angry:

[Paul V]

Yes it's funny how I still haven't gotten over the *gasp someone agrees with me*

Anyway,
I still have faith in humanity.
There is always a possibility of improvement. We just need some better leaders... or... we just need the smart, more honourable etc people to be willing to step up and lead.


I appreciate the efficiency of (US of) America though... compared to Canada.
Canada is way too laid back, things that should only take days take months to get done; very few people are motivated, and those that are move to the States :thinking:

Hm. I often wonder if what I bolded in your statement is in fact true. There are people who are successful in their own honourless way (look at what rwyatt typed for reference), and they are not going to be benefited from people like that leading. They're the ones at the top at the moment, and they're not going to relinquish that position without a fight. Hence why the honest and smart people will have to be constantly fighting those that attempt to thwart them. And in the end, the war will destroy them both.

I'm a little confused with this question.
I don't understand the impact of the parenthetical statement on the question.

But secondly, I'm pretty sure I've heard that in order to have a relatively normal and healthy emotional life, you have to trust people. So in my opinion, that requires us to have some degree of faith in humanity.

The way I keep my faith in humanity from going down the tubes is: I don't watch the news.

I don't trust anyone. Not my parents, not my friends, nobody. Well, at least not COMPLETELY. I have a system with degrees of trust. Nobody ever has reached any further than... let's say... the 6th level (those who have can be counted with one hand). A lot of people are stuck in the 2nd, and won't advance any further without making amends. Everyone else is in the 1st, and some are completely out of it.

Are you saying, by the italicised part of your post, that I don't have a healthy emotional life? Because trust has never (and I really mean never) led me somewhere even remotely good. I'd rather have a screwed up emotional life, but know that at least I'm not being hurt by the people I thought I could trust.

If you put it that way... why have faith in anything at all? Why do we need faith? Does it matter what I think of the world? In the grand scheme of things... no, not really. Things will function (or not), life will go on whether I have faith in it or not. I find it better not to have an expectation of anything but yourself, and so I pretty much only have faith in myself... if anything.

As Jack Sparrow would say:
"Me? I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly stupid"

At least you can always trust humanity... to be human...

If the whole world is "bad", and you don't like it, don't be like the world. Just remember to adjust your expectations of the world and stop expecting what you think is "good".

*continues to ramble in own head, trying to find the point of the ramble*

I do believe you must have faith in your own capabilities. I think it's necessary to succeed.

I would agree, except that having faith in something that is trying to improve is fruitful. The problem with humanity is not that they can't improve, but they are not willing to try. Once I see humanity as a whole regaining morals and selflessness, I will start to regain faith in them (and maybe someday I might even use them in the first person!).

Hah! I agree. But look at what I wrote to rei, way above. I believe it's even harder than "they are not willing to try".

[Rei]

That is true.

That's why I hate politics.

[Hdier]

I don't trust anyone. Not my parents, not my friends, nobody. Well, at least not COMPLETELY.

Definatley, though I think that I take this to the extreme, as I don't trust MYSELF completely.

[Sagacious]

zygemniw, if I were you, I'd stop worrying. They'll get what they deserve eventually. Wait a few years when they try to develop software and fail at detecting their own errors.

Hear hear. I'm one of those software developers, now interviewing people, and it's very easy to tell who did the learning and who copied his way through school. Resumes may look good, but twenty minutes of talking is plenty long to give a cheater enough rope to hang himself. I don't even have to try hard.


Where I went to school, we had an automated program that compared CS assignments. (A professor did his PhD thesis on this program; quite a clever piece of compiler work). I taught for this class ... we told everybody up front what would be done, and every year a half dozen people out of a hundred would cheat. (Usually, a not-so-smart upperclassman guy "helping" his girlfriend through the class by doing her assignments, or some management student who goofed off until he realized his grade was too low to pass.)

The really clever thing about this program was... if you were smart enough to cheat and get past the program, you were smart enough to have done the assignment on your own. Has a nice, poetic balance to it.