Do you like prostitutes?

[alphawolf]

How do you feel about them?

[Rudy]

I chose the 4th option, though that doesn't represent my opinion very well. I think poorly of people who choose to prostitute themselves, or who choose to use prostitution. I do not, however, think that it is morally wrong, or that it a serious societal problem.

I certainly don't think that it should be illegal.

[zibber]

I had to pick the last, on account of me, well, living in Amsterdam, but in actuality I'm with the Rude. (I promise that's the only time I'll ever use that.) Far be it from me to declare that a physical activity is off-limits to anyone; that's essentially for them to decide. Given the unpredictable nature of relationships (ie not just being able to click your fingers and be in one, as well as all of the rituals surrounding sex), I think it's quite understandable that some folks (mainly guys) like being able to go for a quick in-out. Right now the practice is still quite shady, even here (human trafficking and such, forced prostitution), but I have a hunch that a lot of that is simply due to the legal limbo prostitution finds itself in all over the world. Now, what's so damn interesting to me is why exactly it is in such a limbo. Could it mainly be the fault of the taboo? Has it always been viewed as such a shady thing?

[Chronos]

I chose the fourth option as well. I don't have anything against prostitution as such, but I would never pay for sex myself. It would just feel wrong; I very much doubt I'd be able to enjoy it.

[Shikaze]

I don't think prostitution should be illegal either. I mean, they could tax it and should help solve the economic problem.

I chose the 4th though. I consider it as a snack if not done with someone you know.

[Rudy]

actuality I'm with the Rude. (I promise that's the only time I'll ever use that.)

I've heard that many times before and, actually, I've been given far worse nicknames. =D As long as it's some derivation of my actual name, I really don't mind.

[SiMey]

That question to me is similar to "do you like soccer players?"

[Maayan]

I've nothing against the act of profiting from one's body. I worked as a Hooters waitress over the summer, and I've joked that I'd work as a stripper if I weren't such an awkward dancer and if I didn't live in the same city as my parents, whose esteem I value.

If you're a third-wave feminist from a privileged background and you can afford to call yourself Inara Serra, then I envy you. I have nothing against prostitution as a concept, but I strongly dislike the reality of the profession: that many prostitutes are bound to that world for very sad reasons, as well as the prospect of STDs and of putting onself in a vulnerable position with assholes (pimps, dealers, customers).

I wrote a so-so paper on prostitution way back when I first started university. Unionize them! My friend's dad worked with prostitutes in Amsterdam and taught them computer skills to help them run their businesses. Pretty cool, eh?

[Urania]

Live and let live.

[Hatsumomo1]

I really don't care for slutty people in general, but I realize that not all prostitutes necessarily fit my definition of slutty. Some of them are really struggling and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and it went on from there. In reality, it is a terrible social ill, but I think that's because it is illegal. If it were legal and taxed, I think it would be regulated and you wouldn't have half of the BS going on in that industry that you do now. In a perfect world it wouldn't exist at all to me, but this world isn't exactly rainbows and unicorns. If you keep it illegal it'll still happen a lot. The only real way to get rid of prostitution would be to make sure everybody has all the money they need all the time, which is a fine goal to word towards, but unrealistic. Even then it'll still exist.

In short, I really don't like the fact that prostitution exists (for my own moral reasons) but I don't believe in the government telling grown adults what to do with their own time, as long as nobody else getting harmed in the process. Whatever comes of their choice will be their responsibility.

[MaleVolentworld]

I remember seeing one in real life in East Vancouver once while on holiday and didn't know that the area was worse than Baghdad. She was about 1cm wide and weighed about a pound, a walking skeleton high on drugs, a bit like a zombie. What sort of person would pay to get STD from such a zombie? I was disgusted.

[True Rune]

It'll probably never be an honorable career.

[Visum]

I did not take the poll as I don't really like the options given. I do not agree with prostitution, but yet do not have a problem with "them", combo of 3 & 4. I am convinced that the majority of women or even girls that are in prostitution have not chosen this route as their life dream or goal. I would much rather focus a society's efforts on providing people with more productive work. Prostitution has and will be around as long as sex is wanted, but to actually classify it as a viable and productive work brings to mind Romanesque debauchery.

[Mina]

I definitely don't think it should be illegal. Consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies, and that includes selling them.

[rara avis]

...I have nothing against prostitution as a concept, but I strongly dislike the reality of the profession: that many prostitutes are bound to that world for very sad reasons, as well as the prospect of STDs and of putting onself in a vulnerable position with assholes (pimps, dealers, customers).



Agreed.
(Excerpted because I have never been a Hooters waitress, as I would be nightmarishly bad at that. In terms of temperament. Ditto for the stripper thing... although I don't know, maybe there's a niche market there for girls with the chilling Android Gaze of Death. Probably not so much at Hooters.)

Anyway, yeah, live and let live... yet at the same time, probably cringe a little.

[boldbidder]

The prevailing opinion here seems to be of 'live and let live, but I still find it nasty/disgusting/off-putting/<insert adjective of choice>' I'm a bit confused by this. From an evolutionary standpoint reproduction is the single most natural function of any life-form, conceivably single celled organisms learned how to reproduce rapidly before they evolved the ability to ingest nutrients thereby increasing lifespan. In humans, long before verbal or written communication people were reproducing. Sexual urges are more natural than any other; so I say whatever floats your boat.

I don't pay for sex, I pay them to leave when its over (sic) - Alec Baldwin

[walden]

I chose the third option, but none of them really fit. I don't think prostitutes are wrong, but I think the system which drives people into prostitution and which creates people who pay for prostitution is wrong. Prostitutes shouldn't be a target for hate or love because they aren't the issue. If you have a problem with prostitutes themselves then you probably have a problem with vulnerable people or a problem with sex in general. While there are some empowered prostitutes, I would have to guess that the great majority have found the profession for less than desirable reasons, and that it leads them down an even darker road. If prostitution existed in fantasy land and the prostitutes were never poor women who were, in their own minds, degrading themselves to scrape by, and their clients were never abusive, depressingly lonely, or carriers of disease, then both parties would be having a blast. The reality is that I think both parties have severe problems. Prostitutes generally deserve help and sympathy while the people who visit prostitutes need help and are perpetuating the cycle of pain as long as they pay for sex. That's my take on it.

[alphawolf]

The prevailing opinion here seems to be of 'live and let live, but I still find it nasty/disgusting/off-putting/<insert adjective of choice>' I'm a bit confused by this.

You're confused that you find it nasty, or that most people don't care?





alphawolf added to this post, 10 minutes and 34 seconds later...

The reality is that I think both parties have severe problems. Prostitutes generally deserve help and sympathy while the people who visit prostitutes need help and are perpetuating the cycle of pain as long as they pay for sex. That's my take on it.

What do the people who visit prostitutes need help with?

[walden]

The short answer is that they need help finding a way to gain satisfaction (sexual or otherwise) without supporting the exploitation of another person.

[Zer0]

Hmm... Nope?
I'm a bit on conservative side on this matter both in personal feeling and logical way of thinking.
I think the social in general will be better if we minimize prostitution.

(The scientific reason being : The energy and food spent on the "activities" could be spent elsewhere in a more productive fashion)

[boldbidder]

You're confused that you find it nasty, or that most people don't care?

No, I personally don't find it nasty. I was saying that I'm confused that so many people find it personally/morally reprehensible, but are still okay with it being legal. I only say that because nothing is more natural than reproductive acts so I don't see why people seem to have such a problem with it, even if they're willing to tolerate it.

[Mina]

I'm jealous of how much money some of the "high class" prostitutes make, to be honest.

If I weren't afraid of screwing up my relationships/catching an STD, I might consider becoming an escort, or a pro-domme or something similar. It's all a matter of priorities, really.

When I heard about the girl who auctioned off her virginity for several million dollars, I was like, "man, I wish I'd thought of that." Honestly, for that kind of price, it would be *so* worth it. >.>

[alphawolf]

Well, here is my take on prostitution.

It is the oldest profession in the world, and will most likely be the last remaining profession in the world.

I have walked around the red light district in Amsterdam, where you can get a fuck for 50 EUR, and let me tell you, most of those women couldn't pay me enough to come in the door. There were a few exceptions on the street along the canal, but for the most part the women were overweight and highly unattractive.

I don't have anything against them being in Amsterdam, as I believe it is somewhat controlled. I am not 100% sure about that, but it seems at least mostly legitimate.

[putupon]

Sure, hookers are people too. But seriously... not my thing, and as others have pointed out, far too much exploitation/shadiness. Since there’s no way the world’s oldest profession is going away, legalization is likely the way to go, with an eye to minimizing the shadiness.

[Maayan]

I have walked around the red light district in Amsterdam, where you can get a fuck for 50 EUR, and let me tell you, most of those women couldn't pay me enough to come in the door. There were a few exceptions on the street along the canal, but for the most part the women were overweight and highly unattractive.


What's your take on why it's like that?

[Zombicide]

Prostitution is great, I find it offensive that people / law enforcement tells other people they aren't allowed to do something that makes no sense how the government can even have its hand in it to regulate. I mean, maybe zoning regulations. . .for the solicitation part of it but none of this real legal / illegal bull shit. Even in the relatively unlikely event that it were to cause trouble, like guns, tobacco and alcohol, it should still be legal. I do intend to hire prostitutes for the purpose of painting her like they did in the old days. I have little interest in fucking anyone, much less a prostitute but it is fine by me if others want to. Maybe it should be taxed

[alphawolf]

What's your take on why it's like that?

This will require some speculation.

The better looking ones are locals who do escort service because they don't want their friends and family to see them standing in the brothels?

And the really good looking ones can just talk rich men out of money in any case...

[IreOfDesire]

there are two types of prostitutes - the official and the prostitutes in denial. I am ok with the official ones but those people that live as parasites in the pocket of a rich host I pity. Actually I pity anyone that lives in denial.

[SeaCzar]

There has been another thread on this I think, but here's my (jaded and cynical) $0.02.

You are paying for it, one way or another. If you do not want all of the emotional and pyschological bullshit needed to maintain a relationship with some broad just to do the horizontal bop, then why not? Legalising and regulating it should take out the shadiness that others have alluded to, plus fill tax coffers (What deficit?). Its not referred to as "the world's oldest profession" for nothing. Wake up and smell the......coffee?

[daydreamer]

to me it's not a question of morals. what occurs between consenting adults, is ok by me so long as it's ok by them. unfortunately the framework of prostitution usually isn't limited to an exchange between two people... in many instances legalized or high prostitution rates are an indication that a society practices or believes in the inferiority of women, women's lives; thailand and the phillipines for example. it's not just proof of oppressive ideas, but a devaluation of their existence. yeah i think it's a bad idea.

"they are a terrible social ill" - not my words, but closest to my line of thinking

[Hatsumomo1]

The prevailing opinion here seems to be of 'live and let live, but I still find it nasty/disgusting/off-putting/<insert adjective of choice>' I'm a bit confused by this. From an evolutionary standpoint reproduction is the single most natural function of any life-form, conceivably single celled organisms learned how to reproduce rapidly before they evolved the ability to ingest nutrients thereby increasing lifespan. In humans, long before verbal or written communication people were reproducing. Sexual urges are more natural than any other; so I say whatever floats your boat.

I don't pay for sex, I pay them to leave when its over (sic) - Alec Baldwin

Humans aren't slaves to their primal urges though. We're a bit more picky than that.

[Harmony]

I really don't care either way, so I suppose for me it's option 4.

[Asinine]

Although paying for sex just does not make sense to me (benefit < cost), I don't mind the people themselves all that much. I think much higher of a person that prostitutes their body over one that prostitutes their mind.

Although, I could see paying that much for training...

[HeyZeus]

Social conditions that make it an appealing choice are sad. But it's a victimless crime, as long as the guy gets off.

[altoid]

I don't really care either. What other people do is their business. I chose the fourth option as well.


If you're a third-wave feminist from a privileged background and you can afford to call yourself Inara Serra, then I envy you.

Yeah, Inara's got a pretty good setup for that profession... :laugh:

[invicta]

This will require some speculation.

The better looking ones are locals who do escort service because they don't want their friends and family to see them standing in the brothels?

And the really good looking ones can just talk rich men out of money in any case...

Oh yes, everyone knows unattractive people have no shame.

[walden]

Social conditions that make it an appealing choice are sad. But it's a victimless crime, as long as the guy gets off.

Ummm, if you had ever watched anything where former or current prostitutes talk about the shame and self-hate they have for themselves, as well as the abuse that they are often subjected to by clients, I don't think you would say it is a victimless crime.

Do some of you get all of your ideas of prostitution from Hollywood movies?

[LaoTzu]

When I heard about the girl who auctioned off her virginity for several million dollars, I was like, "man, I wish I'd thought of that." Honestly, for that kind of price, it would be *so* worth it. >.>


I think you just solved the global financial crisis!


Personally, I don't think about prostitutes. I'm told they don't think of me either.

I do think it should be legalized, but to take it further, I think it should be regulated by the prostitutes as well.

Just keep it out of my face, and we're all happy ;)

[Shoeless]

I remember watching a comedy by George Carlin, and he said something like, "Selling is legal, @#$%ing is legal. Why is selling @#$%ing illegal?"

I would not go as far to say that I like prostitutes, in the way that I like people who provide sexual favors for money. But I would have no trouble liking them for the person he or she is.

I think a better question would be, "What are your views on prostitution?"

[alphawolf]

Oh yes, everyone knows unattractive people have no shame.

How did you reach that conclusion?

I suspect that the unattractive ones are not able to do escort service because nobody would hire them and they certainly can't become gold-diggers, so their only option is the high-traffic areas where the brothels are. Again, this is just speculation.

[walden]

Most prostitutes are not attractive by society's standards. They look more like homeless people or like methheads.

[Nightelf]

Alphawolf, I think that was irony.

[Kisai]

Most prostitutes are not attractive by society's standards. They look more like homeless people or like methheads.

You are looking a street prostitutes. The upscale ones rent out as 'escorts', 'girl friend experiences', and 'tantric goddesses'. Some are very nice looking.

I don't pay money for sex, though, that would be silly. Sex workers make cool friends, though, they always have funny stories.

[walden]

I'm not doubting that there are attractive prostitutes, I'm just saying that high end escorts are the exception, not the rule. Street prostitutes are something we have in America, and are a lot closer to the type of sex slavery prostitution which is dominant in many countries around the world.

[invicta]

How did you reach that conclusion?

I suspect that the unattractive ones are not able to do escort service because nobody would hire them and they certainly can't become gold-diggers, so their only option is the high-traffic areas where the brothels are. Again, this is just speculation.

If you look back at your post that I quoted you will notice that you presented the less common visibility of attractive prostitutes in terms of dignity and not practicality.

I just thought it was funny and was having a laugh with you. I'm glad you are intelligent enough to know the difference.

[Kisai]

I'm not doubting that there are attractive prostitutes, I'm just saying that high end escorts are the exception, not the rule. Street prostitutes are something we have in America, and are a lot closer to the type of sex slavery prostitution which is dominant in many countries around the world.

I wouldn't say the escorts are the exception, its just a different type of product that they are selling. It's like saying that steakhouses are the exception in America and fast food is the rule. Technically its more true than not, but its still off.

As for prostitution around the world, as long as girls fiend for Gucci handbags, we'll have prostitution.

[Homini Lupus]

I don't put any degradating evaluation on them. A body is a body and it's your choice how to get a living out of it. The problem is that for most of them it isn't a choice: they are promised a better future, taken in a rich, foreign country (at least those I see myself) and forced into that job with threats of abuse on them or their family. So I prefer to endure my unfulfilled urges by myself and not to turn them into somebody elses' torment.

[Ender]

Go easy on me, as I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but it seems to me that the only way prostitution would ever be "good", is if prostitutes weren't treated like crap and there was actually a good system for it. I don't see this as ever happening though, because of the amount of religious and societal "taboos" against such a thing being open and legal.

[walden]

As for prostitution around the world, as long as girls fiend for Gucci handbags, we'll have prostitution.

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. Do you think Indian girls who are forced to prostitute themselves or face death or torture are doing it for Gucci handbags? Forced prostitution (which is nearly synonymous with slavery, which is actually stronger than ever in the world, regardless of what the American public believes) is prostitution, and in third world countries this is the type of prostitution which most commonly exists.

[alphawolf]

If you look back at your post that I quoted you will notice that you presented the less common visibility of attractive prostitutes in terms of dignity and not practicality.

The most successful ones are beautiful narcissists; they always have dignity, even in the brothels. Nobody can shame the narcissistic mind. Men lined up outside the door, while the other brothels are empty. Thumpers walking around with big cardboard Jesus signs, chastising the guys in line... Damned shame they prohibit photo taking there in Amsterdam. That would have been a really funny youtube video!

[Kisai]

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. Do you think Indian girls who are forced to prostitute themselves or face death or torture are doing it for Gucci handbags? Forced prostitution (which is nearly synonymous with slavery, which is actually stronger than ever in the world, regardless of what the American public believes) is prostitution, and in third world countries this is the type of prostitution which most commonly exists.

Could you point to an article, please?

[walden]

Could you point to an article, please?

I didn't search for scholarly articles because I wasn't sure if you would have access to whatever database they'd be on. Here's one I found in a quick minute.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Guest speaker Linda Smith, former congresswoman and founder of Shared Hope, started fighting sex trafficking after she took a trip to India and saw hundreds of caged girls who were sold to men for sex 40 times a night.

“The undercover videos I found in the U.S. shocked me more than anything I saw around the world,” Smith said.

Smith shared the story of two girls who were tricked into trafficking by the promise of a safe place to live, clothes, freedom, money and more.

One of the girls was taken from her grandmother after the trafficker followed her for months; he sold her for four years around the U.S., took her to truck stops, hotels and forced her to walk the streets for hours. She was arrested over 14 times by law enforcement and was never looked at as a victim, but instead was labeled as a prostitute.





walden added to this post, 3 minutes and 18 seconds later...

Here's another article dealing with the murky line between prostitution and slavery.

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Enslaving women for prostitution is dehumanising and "about as bad as it gets for a woman", a Supreme Court judge said.

Justice Chris Maxwell delivered a withering rebuke during an appeal by a former Melbourne brothel owner against her jail term for enslaving five Thai women as prostitutes.

Wei Tang was sentenced to 10 years jail in 2006 for forcing the women to serve 900 clients to work off debts of $45,000 each at her inner Melbourne brothel, Club 417.





walden added to this post, 2 minutes and 35 seconds later...

Here's a page dealing with Nepal and India.

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According to Terres des Hommes though, prostitution in Indian brothels is rarely a calculated choice by young Nepalese women, who are highly appreciated by local customers for their”fair skin, young appearance and honesty,” says the report. There are, by different accounts, between 100.000 and 200.000 Nepalese girls and women who sell sex in India. And according to the Child Workers in Nepal Concerned Centre, a fifth is under 16 years of age. Most were lured by promises of work, money, or even marriage. And about 25% were brought there and sold to the brothel owners by their own families, says Terre des Hommes.

Gita’s nightmare
Little Gita was only ten years old when her aunt took her to India. She thought they were going shopping in Kathmandu when they left their little village that morning, but despite her young age, she understood something was wrong when the trip took several days. On arrival, her aunt left her at a stranger’s house and said she’d be back in the evening. As the sun set, Gita asked a middle-aged women who looked to be in charge of the place when her aunt would be back. “She won’t,” the woman said. “You’ve come to a brothel. You’ll have to work, because we have bought you.”

The now 22-year old Kathmandu-based employee of Maiti Nepal recalls her first night at the brothel in Pune with unsettling sobriety. “They smeared my face with make-up and dressed me up in a mini-skirt,” she says. The little girl refused to let the strange men touch her that night, and was rewarded with her first beating, of which there would be more. The next night, two older girls held her down and stuck a piece of cloth in her mouth so no one would hear her scream as she was raped by a customer. At age ten, that was how Gita got to know men.... She’s also HIV positive, because none of the customers she was forced to serve used protection.

Sounds like they really wanted those Gucci bags, eh?

[Revlutio]

Revlutio added to this post, 54 minutes and 5 seconds later...

It'll probably never be an honorable career.

Not exactly mistresses and courtesans were part of the highest of society during monarchy. I just don't know how we would have a republic version of that.





Revlutio added to this post, 17 minutes and 33 seconds later...

I think I'll have the last say on this.
Prostitutes are just a variation of all of us. You see we all pay for sex and we all have a price. The difference is most of us don't directly use currency (excluding paying for dinner). ;)

I respect that prostitutes are at least honest and foreword about the price. However I could never respect or (Ideally) desire them being that there isn't much exclusivity to there bodies. It just defeats the purpose for me. I don't want what any one can have. Do you?

[alphawolf]

Prostitutes are just a variation of all of us. You see we all pay for sex and we all have a price. The difference is most of us don't directly use currency (excluding paying for dinner). ;)

With that line of thought, they are a lot cheaper than a wife... or even a girlfriend, for that matter.

[boldbidder]

Humans aren't slaves to their primal urges though. We're a bit more picky than that.

If you say so......try not eating or drinking any water for the next week and tell me how that goes. You might find those primal urges a bit tougher than you think ;)

[naberus]

I don't think highly of them, but if an individual has an awareness of what they do and the implications, then I can be less critical of that individual.
At the end of the day, it's their choice what they do with themselves and I'm not going to stop them from trying to make a living.

[Urania]

Perhaps live and let live was a bit short...

What happens between consenting adults is noone's business but their own IMHO.

[Deliberator]

I think it should be legalized.

I think it has a bad association because of how people want to force their own personal values about sex on other people. However, there is also a bad vibe surrounding prostitution because a large proportion of clients are married men.

It is a victimless crime to exchange money for sex. If casual sex isn't illegal and exchanging sex for other things of monetary value isn't illegal, then there's no reason why prostitution should be illegal.





Deliberator added to this post, 1 minutes and 27 seconds later...

With that line of thought, they are a lot cheaper than a wife... or even a girlfriend, for that matter.

Oh, so you only marry/date a woman so you can have sex with her?





Deliberator added to this post, 21 minutes and 46 seconds later...



Here's another article dealing with the murky line between prostitution and slavery.

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Your examples only serve to bolster arguments for legalization... doing so would make it much, much safer because it would be regulated while still supplying the customer base with what they want. Prostitution will exist whether or not it is legalized, it's supply-and-demand.

And prostitution is not the same as kidnapping and sex slavery. A woman who willingly prostitutes herself is not being victimized.

[JohnDoe]

Oh, so you only marry/date a woman so you can have sex with her?

I normally don't comment in these threads, but are you seriously going to stand there and tell me there is a difference between a serious girlfriend/wife and a best friend besides sex?

[Deliberator]

I normally don't comment in these threads, but are you seriously going to stand there and tell me there is a difference between a serious girlfriend/wife and a best friend besides sex?

I don't think you got my point. AlphaWolf made it sound like sound like the only reason you would have a long-term committed relationship with a woman is to have sex with her, as opposed to doing so because you want a friend/companion in addition to sex.

[JohnDoe]

I don't think you got my point. AlphaWolf made it sound like sound like the only reason you would have a long-term committed relationship with a woman is to have sex with her, as opposed to doing so because you want a friend/companion in addition to sex.
Its very easy for some of us to make very, very good friends. It can be very difficult to find someone who is a very, very good friend and is attracted to you. So the argument is certainly much more subtle then you make it out to be. (Its easy to find someone attracted to you, its easy to find someone who makes a very good friend. Its very, very difficult to get both in the same person. This is the crux of the argument).
Edit: Let me add to clarify: If all I wanted was a very good friend, I can find one significantly easier then by having a girlfriend. So, he has some point, although I think its misguided.

[Prunesquallor]

Exploitation is always wrong.
In rare cases, it may be a choice. But often it isn't - and a lack of other options means little choice either, but perhaps starvation. Rarely is it a victimless crime. And even if it were legalised, a certain amount of social development wold have to coincide for exploitation not to find its way into the system.

I won't judge individual people who have been forced into this. I'll not hate all people who visit prostitutes, either, but anyone who knowingly takes advantage of an exploitative situation, however, I loathe, or even those who just plain don't think about what they are doing to these people. Sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.

In theory, exchanging money for sex in and of itself is not wrong and I don't feel the need to judge what goes on between consenting adults. But so rarely is that what is happening.

[Chain]

I'm going with 4. I don't care what you do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If you want to pay or get paid for horizontal refreshment, have at it.

Ummm, if you had ever watched anything where former or current prostitutes talk about the shame and self-hate they have for themselves, as well as the abuse that they are often subjected to by clients, I don't think you would say it is a victimless crime.

Do some of you get all of your ideas of prostitution from Hollywood movies?

What you choose to feel about yourself, or how you choose to change your situation based on your feelings, is your decision.

And making it illegal and thus not regulated has done what for the abuse?

to me it's not a question of morals. what occurs between consenting adults, is ok by me so long as it's ok by them. unfortunately the framework of prostitution usually isn't limited to an exchange between two people... in many instances legalized or high prostitution rates are an indication that a society practices or believes in the inferiority of women, women's lives; thailand and the phillipines for example. it's not just proof of oppressive ideas, but a devaluation of their existence. yeah i think it's a bad idea.

"they are a terrible social ill" - not my words, but closest to my line of thinking

Not every civilization has been that way. For instance, in feudal Japan they were highly respected. But, either way, why should society's view of value (high or low, in this case) influence the law? Garbage men are looked down on too... and the guys and gals flippin' fries at McD's, but neither of those jobs are illegal.

Oh, so you only marry/date a woman so you can have sex with her?

That's how it starts. But, I also consider "dating" a long term interview for personal assistant and baby factory.

Exploitation is always wrong.
In rare cases, it may be a choice. But often it isn't - and a lack of other options means little choice either, but perhaps starvation. Rarely is it a victimless crime. And even if it were legalised, a certain amount of social development wold have to coincide for exploitation not to find its way into the system.

I won't judge individual people who have been forced into this. I'll not hate all people who visit prostitutes, either, but anyone who knowingly takes advantage of an exploitative situation, however, I loathe, or even those who just plain don't think about what they are doing to these people. Sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.

In theory, exchanging money for sex in and of itself is not wrong and I don't feel the need to judge what goes on between consenting adults. But so rarely is that what is happening.

And so... what has making prostitution illegal solved? What would it hurt to make prostitution legal?

[Prunesquallor]

And so... what has making prostitution illegal solved? What would it hurt to make prostitution legal?

Did I say making it illegal had solved anything?

So. If prostitution were made legal: let's see, would it be the same people who had been exploiting and using people who ran the new businesses? Yes, I rather think so. Would the victimisation of women/men go away? No. Perhaps those that frequent prostitutes would have their risk of contracting stds go down, especially in certain places. Charming, but inadequate.

As I said, a certain amount of social development would have to complement this decision. On its own, it is inadequate.

In a world where one in four women will be raped or sexually assaulted, is anyone stupid enough to think that there is enough equality that there will not be victimisation and exploitation in a business like prostitution?

[Chain]

Did I say making it illegal had solved anything?

So. If prostitution were made legal: let's see, would it be the same people who had been exploiting and using people who ran the new businesses? Yes, I rather think so. Would the victimisation of women/men go away? No. Perhaps those that frequent prostitutes would have their risk of contracting stds go down, especially in certain places. Charming, but inadequate.

As I said, a certain amount of social development would have to complement this decision. On its own, it is inadequate.

In a world where one in four women will be raped or sexually assaulted, is anyone stupid enough to think that there is enough equality that there will not be victimisation and exploitation in a business like prostitution?

Would legalizing it make it any worse? That's the point. "Legal" is irrelevant. Hell, if anything it would help them. Rather than running from police, they go to them for assistance without worrying about getting arrested in the process.

[thod]

So. If prostitution were made legal: let's see, would it be the same people who had been exploiting and using people who ran the new businesses? Yes, I rather think so. Would the victimisation of women/men go away? No. Perhaps those that frequent prostitutes would have their risk of contracting stds go down, especially in certain places. Charming, but inadequate.


Clearly you have no experience with a legal prostitution system. Take Australia/NZ for example. I fucked students, women with 4 kids at home and housewives. None of them was a victim. I should know because you rent them by the hour and that means more talking than fucking. I didn't notice anything odd about them, they were just normal women. Not junkies and not disturbed.

Some do it every night, some do it once a week for extra cash. Its entirely up to them. They get regular medical check ups, the get a bar to wait in, all the rooms have alarm buttons. They are totally safe and warm. They do it because they enjoy the work and the pay. They actually like sitting around chatting with the other girls, they like chatting to men and then fucking them. Some people love that kind of social job. Everything is with a condom and to fail a health check up puts the girl out of work so it doesnt happen.

They are not exploited because they are not employed. They are free lance workers. The brothel provides the showers, towels, sheets, security, bar etc. Its not unlike a hotel. It takes a fixed cut from what each girl earns for these services. She is free to work there or go to another. Likewise the brothel can ban her as they would do with junkies or the disturbed. The brothel wants to keep its reputation high. It cant employ illegals, underage etc. It has an interest in reporting and closing down any that do so you the industry polices itself.

I guess you call me one of the exploiters because I looked at the price of buying one. They are traded and operated like any other business and the owners buy and sell them in the papers.

You only get all this exploitation in your land because it has to operate undercover. They cannot involve the police or authorities and you dont have the inter brothel competition.

[Jonathan Brewer]

I think socially prostitution is a bad thing. I do not believe laws will ever prevent it or even those who wish to sell themselves or others. I do however feel the laws help curb its expansion by making it more difficult for those seeking their services.

I do believe it is a bad thing, though I don't judge. I am friends with more than one former or current prostitute. They are as diverse as the rest of us.

[qwerty123]

I believe in regulation to reduce crime, violence and disease along both groups of people who use such services. I personally would not indulge, I'd probably judge those who do, but I would not want to restrict someone's freedom to what is at the end of the day pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

It provides an opportunity for women to earn a decent income. One could argue that people might be lazy and shirk more demanding careers. Someone who was planning to be a physician will probably not become a proverbial "fallen angel" in this manner.

One could also argue that the prostitutes might need psychological care, but most of us do anyways, and is a pretty menial desk job all that different? It's repetitive and generally unfulfilling.

[alphawolf]

It's repetitive and generally unfulfilling.

Au contraire; prostitution is repetitive and generally filling.

[Prunesquallor]

You only get all this exploitation in your land because it has to operate undercover. They cannot involve the police or authorities and you dont have the inter brothel competition.

Bullshit. Men exploiting women for sex is not going to go away just because it's legalised. Don't be naive.

I'm all for regulating things to make them safer - drug use, for example. All I'm saying is that it's not a magic pill.

I'm sure there are a few places where people can make a choice to do it - a free choice, not one based on financial need, prejudice, and the fact that no one wants anything else from them. Some may even like it - and they're all paid to say that they do.
I doubt, however, that in most societies this is remotely close to happening, even if it were legalised there. Legalisation is not enough on its own.

[Jgib5328]

I don't see anything wrong with it for other people, but I'd personally never lower myself to paying for sex. I know all of the arguments that you could make against this statement, but I'm just saying, me on a personal level would feel incredibly dirty doing it.

[thod]

Bullshit. Men exploiting women for sex is not going to go away just because it's legalised. Don't be naive

Surely you mean women exploiting men. He spends all day hammering in fence posts, gets his pay, and gives it her for 10 minutes pussy pounding. She is weighs up the options and sees a good deal. I think you are upset about the icky-sticky side of it rather than looking at the amount of work done.

[Prunesquallor]

Surely you mean women exploiting men. He spends all day hammering in fence posts, gets his pay, and gives it her for 10 minutes pussy pounding. She is weighs up the options and sees a good deal. I think you are upset about the icky-sticky side of it rather than looking at the amount of work done.

You honestly think you make sense, don't you?
Humans.

[Sinequanon]

Exploitation is always wrong.
In rare cases, it may be a choice. But often it isn't - and a lack of other options means little choice either, but perhaps starvation. Rarely is it a victimless crime. And even if it were legalised, a certain amount of social development wold have to coincide for exploitation not to find its way into the system.

I won't judge individual people who have been forced into this. I'll not hate all people who visit prostitutes, either, but anyone who knowingly takes advantage of an exploitative situation, however, I loathe, or even those who just plain don't think about what they are doing to these people. Sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.

In theory, exchanging money for sex in and of itself is not wrong and I don't feel the need to judge what goes on between consenting adults. But so rarely is that what is happening.
Have you ever actually seen a guy being led by a stripper to an ATM machine to get more money (at a $9 service fee, with a $20 per use limit) for another lap dance? I lost a lot of respect for my friend witnessing that. The power dynamics in those situations are not black and white. I don't go to strip clubs anymore (that was the first and last time) because I don't want to be exploited.

[Rudy]

You honestly think you make sense, don't you?
Humans.

It made perfect sense. Not all girls are prostitutes due to a lack of options (although this does happen.) Many look at the hourly rates and say, "This is the job for me." Look at the interviews with some of the employees of the legal brothels in Nevada, for example.

[Prunesquallor]

It made perfect sense. Not all girls are prostitutes due to a lack of options (although this does happen.) Many look at the hourly rates and say, "This is the job for me." Look at the interviews with some of the employees of the legal brothels in Nevada, for example.

I never said all were. I've mentioned that repeatedly. Only that I do not entirely trust that legalising prostitution is a magic panacea.
I'm saying that in a society where women lack power and options, it's a bit silly to claim they're the exploiters. Yes, it's mean to take advantage of people with no common sense; no, it's not empowering to be valued solely because you have a cunt.

[alphawolf]

it's not empowering to be valued solely because you have a cunt.

You forgot tits and ass...

[Prunesquallor]

You forgot tits and ass...

Why thank you for pointing that out.

[Sinequanon]

I never said all were. I've mentioned that repeatedly. Only that I do not entirely trust that legalising prostitution is a magic panacea.
I'm saying that in a society where women lack power and options, it's a bit silly to claim they're the exploiters. Yes, it's mean to take advantage of people with no common sense; no, it's not empowering to be valued solely because you have a cunt.
It's sad and self-perpetuating that you appear to automatically assume "someone with a cunt" automatically lacks power and options (don't say you didn't say that, you're heavily implying it, and relying on it to inform your position).

[alphawolf]

Why thank you for pointing that out.

My pleasure, dear!

[Prunesquallor]

It's sad and self-perpetuating that you appear to automatically assume "someone with a cunt" automatically lacks power and options (don't say you didn't say that, you're heavily implying it, and relying on it to inform your position).

And you think that's not true? Do you really believe we're equal in terms of power and options as a gender? I think not. Discrimination exists, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Individuals make do, but there is a heavy bias in favour of men, overall.

You are, perhaps, confusing the probabilistic with the absolute.

[Sinequanon]

And you think that's not true? Do you really believe we're equal in terms of power and options as a gender? I think not.
You may be conflating criticizing social problems with enforcing them. To cite the status quo as deterministic is defeatist, and ultimately does little real good. Would you tell your daughters that they can't be anything they want to be, because of how society is? Or would you give them the encouragement they need to tackle the world, cunt be damned? I'd favor the latter approach.

Discrimination does exist, but what's generally more critical than the discrimination itself is our reaction to it.

[Prunesquallor]

You may be conflating criticizing social problems with enforcing them. To cite the status quo as deterministic is defeatist, and ultimately does little real good. Would you tell your daughters that they can't be anything they want to be, because of how society is? Or would you give them the encouragement they need to tackle the world, cunt be damned? I'd favor the latter approach.

Discrimination does exist, but what's generally more critical than the discrimination itself is our reaction to it.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that these factors are in play around the issue of prostitution and that it's silly to ignore them. I certainly don't think that the status quo re societal prejudice cannot change - what I have said is that it needs to, for legalising prostitution to really make a real difference, and that simple legalisation is not sufficient without such change.

[Chain]

You forgot tits and ass...

Not all those with two X's have tits and ass...

And you think that's not true? Do you really believe we're equal in terms of power and options as a gender? I think not. Discrimination exists, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Individuals make do, but there is a heavy bias in favour of men, overall.

You are, perhaps, confusing the probabilistic with the absolute.

Yep, I think you're on crack, or have some serious penis envy.

If people are dumb enough to pay you for sex or blue balls... If people will pay your way- house, food, clothing, fun- for a bit of horizontal refreshment now and then... If people do things for you just because you lack a Y chromosome... that's a type of power.

[Prunesquallor]

Not all those with two X's have tits and ass...

Yep, I think you're on crack, or have some serious penis envy.

If people are dumb enough to pay you for sex or blue balls... If people will pay your way- house, food, clothing, fun- for a bit of horizontal refreshment now and then... If people do things for you just because you lack a Y chromosome... that's a type of power.

We are clearly never going to agree, and I have no intention of continuing this conversation.

Happy Wednesday.

[Rudy]

We are clearly never going to agree, and I have no intention of continuing this conversation.

People rarely do in argument/debate. The point of debate is less to change the other person's mind, as to test your own beliefs and ideas.

[Prunesquallor]

People rarely do in argument/debate. The point of debate is less to change the other person's mind, as to test your own beliefs and ideas.

That implies one hasn't already tested them.
However, I would not have a belief without having a solid basis for it.
It may rely on various ideals that are more personal, or experiences of discrimination, for example, but that doesn't mean it wasn't considered rationally. If people like to shoot of their mouth on topics about which they know little, they are welcome to, but I do not do the same.

I know what I believe and why I believe it - I simply have no interest in discussing the issue with someone who says I'm "on crack" or have "penis envy" just because I acknowledge discrimination exists. It is fruitless and rather irritating.

[Rudy]

I know what I believe and why I believe it - I simply have no interest in discussing the issue with someone who says I'm "on crack" or have "penis envy" just because I acknowledge discrimination exists. It is fruitless and rather irritating.

I don't think it's an issue of discrimination existing. Obviously women get discriminated against. The problem is that you seem to refuse to acknowledge that women have certain advantages over men as well.

[Prunesquallor]

I don't think it's an issue of discrimination existing. Obviously women get discriminated against. The problem is that you seem to refuse to acknowledge that women have certain advantages over men as well.

The net balance is an issue.

Plus, the fact that they just want us for sex: that's an advantage? Tell that to a girl who's been raped. Tell that to girls forced to wear burqas because males "clearly" cannot control themselves upon seeing *any* part of their body - let's blame the woman! This "power" takes much more sinister forms than guys buying girls chocolates - and then thinking that this entitles them to sex.

If the ability to induce sexual attention is the main societal strength we have, forgive me if I do not throw a parade.

Society favours men. Especially in the realm of sexual relations. This is an issue. That is all. It does not explain everything, it is not the most important thing - it is an issue and all I've been saying is that it should not be ignored.

[Rudy]

Actually, I blame religion for the burkas, but that's another issue.

The fact that men want women for sex is an advantage and a disadvantage. That's all I'm saying. Many women choose to use the advantages. I'm not sure how you got to the point where you think I'm favoring rapists. I actually favor forced chemical castration for anyone convicted of rape.

[Chain]

The net balance is an issue.

Plus, the fact that they just want us for sex: that's an advantage? Tell that to a girl who's been raped. Tell that to girls forced to wear burqas because males "clearly" cannot control themselves upon seeing *any* part of their body - let's blame the woman! This "power" takes much more sinister forms than guys buying girls chocolates - and then thinking that this entitles them to sex.

If the ability to induce sexual attention is the main societal strength we have, forgive me if I do not throw a parade.

Society favours men. Especially in the realm of sexual relations. This is an issue. That is all. It does not explain everything, it is not the most important thing - it is an issue and all I've been saying is that it should not be ignored.

You're the ugly duckling, aren't ya?

I'd say society favors women. All they have to do is lay back and moan, men actually have to work for a living.

[Prunesquallor]

Actually, I blame religion for the burkas, but that's another issue.

The fact that men want women for sex is an advantage and a disadvantage. That's all I'm saying. Many women choose to use the advantages. I'm not sure how you got to the point where you think I'm favoring rapists. I actually favor forced chemical castration for anyone convicted of rape.
Religion helps, but it's hardly the only factor.

I didn't say you favoured rapists, I'm just pointing out how guys going stupid over girls is not always benign. And I think touting being seen as a sex object as an advantage is a bit much.
Yes, some girls use it to their advantage. After all, if you have breasts rather than brains, why not use them? But they're still not stepping out of the object-subject relationship and that's hardly empowering. Taking advantage of a relatively crappy situation doesn't make it an advantage. I question that logic.

[Rudy]

Religion helps, but it's hardly the only factor.

I didn't say you favoured rapists, I'm just pointing out how guys going stupid over girls is not always benign. And I think touting being seen as a sex object as an advantage is a bit much.
Yes, some girls use it to their advantage. After all, if you have breasts rather than brains, why not use them? But they're still not stepping out of the object-subject relationship and that's hardly empowering. Taking advantage of a relatively crappy situation doesn't make it an advantage. I question that logic.
I guess what I don't understand is why you automatically think that being objectified is a bad thing. What makes it bad? And breasts are a tool just as brains are. I'm not sure why using one is morally superior to using the other.

If I were a buff guy, I would use that to my advantage in the same way. If I were an aggressive guy, like our dear alphawolf, I would use that advantage as well. If that the same thing?

[alphawolf]

I have brought up a few controversial topics lately, to encourage people to test their own beliefs and arguments, just like Rudy said.

- prostitution
- fur
- religion


I voiced my opinions on fur and religion, but not too much on prostitution. The reason is because I didn't have much of an opinion on it, and wanted to learn from all of your arguments. Some people have told me that I was just baiting, but I do think that we can grow from debating controversial topics.

Prune, you obviously have some serious issues with men and you should probably take some time to look deep down inside and see what has caused those, so you can let it go and become happy. You become angered very easily regarding the topic and it shows. Find a friend here, there are some damned good ones.

[Prunesquallor]

I guess what I don't understand is why you automatically think that being objectified is a bad thing. What makes it bad? And breasts are a tool just as brains are. I'm not sure why using one is morally superior to using the other.


Brains are better because they involve intelligence? is this hard?

As for objectification: It feels gross. Like you're being used. Like you're not valued for anything that matters nor will ever be.

Imagine you work in an old folk's home. And there's creepy eighty year old ladies staring at the doors as you walk past, just going rrshhhhhh, touching themselves.
Do you feel flattered, or just repulsed?

I mean, people are entitled to their own opinions, but I should be expected to be flattered because some guy leers at me? Please.

Besides which, try talking to someone if all they do is stare at your chest, or make inane remarks about, you know, crap. blah, blah, beautiful, blah crap blah. How does one expect to accomplish anything? It takes so much mroe time to cut through their bullshit and they don't fucking listen.

Some people are, yes, content to be valued not for who they are, or what they think, or what they've accomplished, but only for their looks. They are usually somewhat shallow.





Prunesquallor added to this post, 1 minutes and 16 seconds later...

I have brought up a few controversial topics lately, to encourage people to test their own beliefs and arguments, just like Rudy said.

- prostitution
- fur
- religion


I voiced my opinions on fur and religion, but not too much on prostitution. The reason is because I didn't have much of an opinion on it, and wanted to learn from all of your arguments. Some people have told me that I was just baiting, but I do think that we can grow from debating controversial topics.

Prune, you obviously have some serious issues with men and you should probably take some time to look deep down inside and see what has caused those, so you can let it go and become happy. You become angered very easily regarding the topic and it shows. Find a friend here, there are some damned good ones.

Gosh, you're right, clearly I just need to get laid, isn't that it?

Gotta love being female...you get taken so seriously.

[alphawolf]

Gosh, you're right, clearly I just need to get laid, isn't that it?

No, you know that's not what I said.

Free your mind...

[Rudy]

Brains are better because they involve intelligence? is this hard?
Why is intelligence better than beauty? I certainly don't think it is, and this is coming from someone who has a lot more of the former, than the latter.

As for objectification: It feels gross. Like you're being used. Like you're not valued for anything that matters nor will ever be.
It feels gross to you. Stop assuming that the same applies to everyone. A certain amount of objectification of myself is flattering, and I think, from female friends, that most women feel the same.

Imagine you work in an old folk's home. And there's creepy eighty year old ladies staring at the doors as you walk past, just going rrshhhhhh, touching themselves.
Do you feel flattered, or just repulsed?
Flattered, actually. I might even put on a little show for them; wear some tight jeans, or something. Poor old ladies getting no action. It's the least I can do.

I mean, people are entitled to their own opinions, but I should be expected to be flattered because some guy leers at me? Please.
You don't have to be flattered by it, no. What you do have to do is stop looking down on those who are.

Besides which, try talking to someone if all they do is stare at your chest, or make inane remarks about, you know, crap. blah, blah, beautiful, blah crap blah. How does one expect to accomplish anything? It takes so much mroe time to cut through their bullshit and they don't fucking listen.
A lot of guys are idiots, true. This is an extreme case, however. You don't want to date that kind of guy, don't, but there are plenty of guys who can express attraction without being complete idiots about it.

Some people are, yes, content to be valued not for who they are, or what they think, or what they've accomplished, but only for their looks. They are usually somewhat shallow.
Sorry to tell you, but looks are part of who you are. There's nothing wrong with being proud of them. I was born with high mental capabilities. How can I be proud of that, but look down on those proud of their natural beauty?

[Prunesquallor]

No, you know that's not what I said.

Free your mind...

I have issues with stupidity. Which includes most men, yes, but also most women. Because humanity is not that impressive, let's be honest.
I don't see why not appreciating being treated like a pretty, dim brainless object is a sign of deep-seated issues. Nor do I think that believing that a certain amount of social development is useful in making prostitution less likely to involve exploitation is a problematic idea either.
If you are so deep in your world that you cannot explain my opinions without resorting to the typical 'you have guy issues' schtick, then that is your problem, not mine.

[Rudy]

If you are so deep in your world that you cannot explain my opinions without resorting to the typical 'you have guy issues' schtick, then that is your problem, not mine.

I, at least, said nothing of the sort. My point is that you need to stop projecting your standards onto everyone else.

[Prunesquallor]

Why is intelligence better than beauty? I certainly don't think it is, and this is coming from someone who has a lot more of the former, than the latter.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

It feels gross to you. Stop assuming that the same applies to everyone. A certain amount of objectification of myself is flattering, and I think, from female friends, that most women feel the same.

Not most that I've talked to. And even those that like attention only like it from certain people. And a lot of girls who pretend to like around guys, because it is useful to them, will still talk to other girls about not liking it and wanting guys to at least notice that they have a brain and personality.

Flattered, actually. I might even put on a little show for them; wear some tight jeans, or something. Poor old ladies getting no action. It's the least I can do.

You don't have to be flattered by it, no. What you do have to do is stop looking down on those who are.

Then I guess I cannot explain it to you. That's as much as I could do to make it seem as unpalatable as it is to many of us.
Although I don't particularly understand people liking it, what bothers me the most is those giving the attention with the blanket assumption that it will always be appreciated. This usually involved either arrogance or ignorance, occasionally both. A lot more people have problems with it than you think. In fact, I don't even mind shallow people, though I'd not want to be one myself - I just happen to recognise that they're shallow.

A lot of guys are idiots, true. This is an extreme case, however. You don't want to date that kind of guy, don't, but there are plenty of guys who can express attraction without being complete idiots about it.

Sorry to tell you, but looks are part of who you are. There's nothing wrong with being proud of them. I was born with high mental capabilities. How can I be proud of that, but look down on those proud of their natural beauty?

Because it's shallow?
And where are these guys who aren't idiots? I've only met two.

And, to be perfectly honest, I do not identify with my looks as who I am. They're that other part that people react to without it touching me. It is not part of my personality, character, or brain, and that is who I am. My looks are merely what other people think I am - and far too often it's all they think I am.

[alphawolf]

If you are so deep in your world that you cannot explain my opinions without resorting to the typical 'you have guy issues' schtick, then that is your problem, not mine.

Is it typical for men to say that to you? Because you're the first woman I've said that to in a few years now. If it's typical for you to hear that, then maybe there just might be something to it...

[Prunesquallor]

I, at least, said nothing of the sort. My point is that you need to stop projecting your standards onto everyone else.

I was not saying that to you. Don't be silly.

Nor do I expect to project my standards upon everyone. No one would live up to them. I don't, even.

All I've been saying is that legalising prostitution is insufficient when there's so much discrimination attached to the men-women-sex issue. It's not complicated.





Prunesquallor added to this post, 1 minutes and 16 seconds later...

Is it typical for men to say that to you? Because you're the first woman I've said that to in a few years now. If it's typical for you to hear that, then maybe there just might be something to it...

Quit with the ad hominems. They're useless and inaccurate, as well as irrelevant. And a poor debate tactic.

[Rudy]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I disagree.
That's the thing. It's not an opinion for me. The reason that I do not say that intelligence is somehow better than beauty is that I have no rational basis on which to say so. Thus, I recognize that I have no right to say so. I prefer intelligence to beauty, but that is a different thing altogether. Do you have a rational basis on which to make this distinction?

Not most that I've talked to. And even those that like attention only like it from certain people. And a lot of girls who pretend to like around guys, because it is useful to them, will still talk to other girls about not liking it and wanting guys to at least notice that they have a brain and personality.
Maybe we're talking to two very different groups of people, but all the girls that I am friends with in reality (primarily from upper level economics courses,) made it very clear to me that they would not date someone who did not make it very clear that he was physically attracted to her. (This came when I was asking their advice on dating.)

Then I guess I cannot explain it to you. That's as much as I could do to make it seem as unpalatable as it is to many of us.
If there is anyone else who finds what she described unpalatable, please say something. If I'm wrong, I want to know.

Although I don't particularly understand people liking it, what bothers me the most is those giving the attention with the blanket assumption that it will always be appreciated. This usually involved either arrogance or ignorance, occasionally both. A lot more people have problems with it than you think. In fact, I don't even mind shallow people, though I'd not want to be one myself - I just happen to recognise that they're shallow.
Again, it comes back to the point of why is valuing physical appearance bad.

And where are these guys who aren't idiots? I've only met two.
Hmm. Don't know what to tell you. I think that most of my dating experience has gone badly because I did not indicate enough appreciation of physical beauty.

And, to be perfectly honest, I do not identify with my looks as who I am. They're that other part that people react to without it touching me. It is not part of my personality, character, or brain, and that is who I am. My looks are merely what other people think I am - and far too often it's all they think I am.
Again, if you want to think this for yourself, fine. But you have no right to be saying that other people cannot think of their beauty as one of their important attributes, and be proud of it.

[alphawolf]

Quit with the ad hominems. They're useless and inaccurate, as well as irrelevant. And a poor debate tactic.

I will remind you that I am the originator of this thread, dear :-)

[TheLastMohican]

I'm jumping in here with some scattered thoughts:

Why is intelligence better than beauty?

It would be very hard to figure out which is "better," and perhaps there is no objective answer. One thing intelligence has over beauty is that it is valuable even when there are no other humans around to appreciate it. Intelligence will help you to survive in isolation, and beauty will not. That is a very unusual situation, however, and determining which is more advantageous in life is hopelessly complicated. Neither can be valued very accurately until we understand a great deal more about them, so it's currently a non-sequitur to say that one person is more intelligent than another is beautiful, or vice versa. Until we can quantify both attributes in terms of deviations from the average, and then study large numbers of people and assess how their rankings affect their lives, we can't say that one is better or worse than the other.

Sorry to tell you, but looks are part of who you are. There's nothing wrong with being proud of them. I was born with high mental capabilities. How can I be proud of that, but look down on those proud of their natural beauty?

What exactly do you mean by being "proud" of your attributes? You did not work to attain them, but do you feel proud of them in the same way that you feel proud of your accomplishments?
Also, I think that the extent to which looks are part of a person's identity varies a lot from person to person. If you suddenly get a bad case of acne, rendering you less good-looking, do you become a different person because of that? Some people are largely oblivious to what they look like, and identify very weakly with their appearances. A change in intelligence, meanwhile, would be felt as a major change to identity for most people.

Because it's shallow?

What makes it "shallow"? If a person recognizes that his or her looks are valuable, especially more so than any of the person's other positive attributes, then it makes sense for that person to value the looks over the intelligence.


And where are these guys who aren't idiots? I've only met two.


Then you must have a very broad definition of "idiot." Scientifically speaking, idiots comprise a small percentage of the population, and it doesn't make sense to label more than half of the population "idiots." Where do you get your standards? Do you consider all those less intelligent than yourself to be stupid?

[Rudy]

It would be very hard to figure out which is "better," and perhaps there is no objective answer. One thing intelligence has over beauty is that it is valuable even when there are no other humans around to appreciate it. Intelligence will help you to survive in isolation, and beauty will not. That is a very unusual situation, however, and determining which is more advantageous in life is hopelessly complicated. Neither can be valued very accurately until we understand a great deal more about them, so it's currently a non-sequitur to say that one person is more intelligent than another is beautiful, or vice versa. Until we can quantify both attributes in terms of deviations from the average, and then study large numbers of people and assess how their rankings affect their lives, we can't say that one is better or worse than the other.
I agree that intelligence has more utility than beauty. My point was simply that valuing one more than the other does not make you a superior, or more moral, person.

What exactly do you mean by being "proud" of your attributes? You did not work to attain them, but do you feel proud of them in the same way that you feel proud of your accomplishments?
Poor word choice on my part. I would say I am proud of my accomplishments, but most of those accomplishments would not have occurred without my above average intelligence. So, indirectly, I am proud of my intelligence.

Also, I think that the extent to which looks are part of a person's identity varies a lot from person to person. If you suddenly get a bad case of acne, rendering you less good-looking, do you become a different person because of that? Some people are largely oblivious to what they look like, and identify very weakly with their appearances. A change in intelligence, meanwhile, would be felt as a major change to identity for most people.
This is a fair point, that most people consider intelligence to be a more integral part of them than their beauty. Again, my only point is that those who value their intelligence are not better than those who value their beauty.

[TheLastMohican]

^ Right, I was replying to both you and Prunesquallor in most of that, hence the agreements.

[Prunesquallor]

I will remind you that I am the originator of this thread, dear :-)

And that is relevant how?



Prunesquallor added to this post, 5 minutes and 39 seconds later...

What makes it "shallow"? If a person recognizes that his or her looks are valuable, especially more so than any of the person's other positive attributes, then it makes sense for that person to value the looks over the intelligence.

Shallow is, by definition, a focus on appearances. And it's not wrong, it's just shallow. And not something I personally happen to appreciate. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion, of course. I'm not insane.

Then you must have a very broad definition of "idiot." Scientifically speaking, idiots comprise a small percentage of the population, and it doesn't make sense to label more than half of the population "idiots." Where do you get your standards? Do you consider all those less intelligent than yourself to be stupid?

All those less intelligent than myself? No. But most people are idiots. Not in terms of diagnosable mental disorders, no, but seriously, read any newspaper and try not to get disgusted with humanity. Read any bestseller. Watch most successful movies. People are stupid. That's not necessarily bad, or morally wrong (although sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice), but humans are pretty dumb. I mean really.

[Synamon]

I will remind you that I am the originator of this thread, dear :-)

And that is relevant how?
It is not relevant. This is not "alphawolf's thread", it is INTJ Forum's thread. It doesn't matter who started the thread, this is a public forum and everyone has equal right to post their views and debate the issue. If the discussion veers off course and someone thinks it should be split into a new thread, go ahead and use the Report feature. You can also use the Report feature to report posts which violate the forum rules (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts._rules).

[Urania]

The question most people seem to be answering is what do you think/feel about the consequences of illegal prostitution.