Other people's children

[Samoan Corleone]

I'd never even want to date a chick who already had kids. The only kids I want are gonna be half mine, and born within wedlock. There's no way I'm picking up another man's scraps.

[Anreader]

For me its not about the other woman its about the man. If he had been married before it would be ok but no illegitimates.... Yuck.

[dalidaisy]

It's about purity, isn't it? Someone who saves themself for marriage, as I can only assume Puffi is doing, is more pure and possibly has stronger morals and strength of character. Well, that's how I interpret Puffi's point of view.

Are you saying that believing in the institute of marriage & the idea of saving sex for after you sign the contract means you have stronger morals & strength of character than those who do not?

[Samoan Corleone]

For me its not about the other woman its about the man. If he had been married before it would be ok but no illegitimates.... Yuck.

Uh huh, I get you. For me it's no prior children whatsoever, regardless of whether or not the child is an Edgar. It's a Catholic thing.





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 2 minutes and 14 seconds later...

Are you saying that believing in the institute of marriage & the idea of saving sex for after you sign the contract means you have stronger morals & strength of character than those who do not?

No, that's the way I was interpreting the OP's point of view. I know that there's more to strength of character and morals than how easily one "gives it up."

[Anreader]

Are you saying that believing in the institute of marriage & the idea of saving sex for after you sign the contract means you have stronger morals & strength of character than those who do not?

Nope I'm saying I would only marry someone with similar values, regardless of the reason why.

[pure potential]

Samoan, my grandmother goes to Catholic church every day and would still take in any child as her own.. its not a religious thing, its a personal thing, a matter of the heart.

It makes me sad when people just so easily disregard children due to irrelevant ideas like genetics. I highly value all children and believe that it does takes a community to raise a child. "Children are not born unto you, they are born unto the world." - when we start to remember/realize this, and *attempt* to empathize with it, we will all be much better off.. and have a better sense of community around the world.

Khalil says it beautifully when he speaks on the topic of children, the true virgins..

On Children
by Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

[Anreader]

It makes me sad when people just so easily disregard children due to irrelevant ideas like genetics. I highly value all children and believe that it does takes a community to raise a child.

Thank you for the lovely poem, but I think you misunderstand. He is not saying the children should disappear. He is saying he would prefer a mate who does not have any. Not some kind of... retroactive abortion, or anything.

[pure potential]

Nope I'm saying I would only marry someone with similar values, regardless of the reason why.

Are these sexual preferences or values?? I highly value the sexual experience, yet I have different preferences on initiating it.





pure potential added to this post, 1 minutes and 25 seconds later...

Thank you for the lovely poem, but I think you misunderstand. He is not saying the children should disappear. He is saying he would prefer a mate who does not have any. Not some kind of... retroactive abortion, or anything.

I think you may have missed it. Its more of the perspective that children are children.. not yours, not mine.. ours. Our children that we hold in priority as part of the human race community.

[Samoan Corleone]

Samoan, my grandmother goes to Catholic church every day and would still take in any child.. its not a religious thing, its a personal thing, a matter of the heart.

It makes me sad when people just so easily disregard children due to irrelevant ideas like genetics. I highly value all children and believe that it does takes a community to raise a child. "Children are not born unto you, they are born unto the world." - when we start to remember/realize this, and *attempt* to empathize with it, we will all be much better off.. and have a better sense of community around the world.

Khalil says it beautifully when he speaks on the topic of children, the true virgins..

On Children
by Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

That is indeed a lovely poem. Anreader understands where I'm coming from, though. It's not like I would disregard the children, I LOVE kids! Anyone in my family will tell you I spend hours playing with and taking care of my younger siblings and cousins, and any of my friends will tell you I do the same with their younger relatives. I detest when people abuse children, especially paedophile Priests, as they're in such a position of trust.

What I meant was that, in the unlikely situation I end up in a relationship with a woman who already has children I'd never be able to look at them as mine. You may overlook genetics, but I wouldn't be able to handle seeing another man's eyes on my "child". I'll love and care for the children as if they were my own, but there are certain things I'd never be able to overlook.

[pure potential]

Pardon, I don't think that you disregard children completely. This was more in your direct reference of not being able to see them as yours. What makes them "his" or "yours" other than genetic factors? Aren't they just children when it comes down to it, deserving of love, guidance and protection- like all of us?

[Samoan Corleone]

What makes them "his" or "yours"?

The fact that I half-created him or her.

[pure potential]

Are you that much different? We are way more alike than we realize it.. possibly even 99.9% as a base genetically.

[Samoan Corleone]

Pardon, I don't think that you disregard children completely. This was more in your direct reference of not being able to see them as yours. What makes them "his" or "yours" other than genetic factors? Aren't they just children when it comes down to it, deserving of love, guidance and protection like all of us?

Yes, the child would deserve love, guidance, and protection, but I can't disregard genetics. If I'm going to marry a woman, I'll want exclusive children with her. If she has children to other men from a previous relationship, I'll love them, I'll just never be able to be their father. It's more than just genetics, trust me.

[pure potential]

And lets say you met this wife, had your child, and lost her for some reason leaving you to raise your child on your own. I would hope that you would be able to find another loving partner that would see your child as hers.. you and your child deserve it.

[Samoan Corleone]

Well, yes it's very possible I'll find someone who would be willing to take my child into their life should I lose my wife. Don't call me a hypocrite, or anything, but that would only be because this woman who comes along after my wife would have differing views from my own. If no woman wanted to be with me because I already had a child, I'd understand completely.





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 2 minutes and 36 seconds later...

Don't you just love it when threads go off-rail?

[pure potential]

Well I hope that woman would still offer both of you the consideration whether or not you were still too stubborn to give the same.

[Samoan Corleone]

Well, ask my ex, I'm a stubborn person.

[Ender]

I don't think I would ever want someone else's children or to adopt for that matter, but it's really just personal preference (more power to those who would). I mean, if I had to I would, but I'd probably never really feel like they were my "flesh and blood". In other words, not so much *my* offspring, as much as a human mind that I'm training to act in a certain way. I know it sounds messed up when I put it that way, but, if you boil it down, isn't that really what you're doing when raising a child?

[Samoan Corleone]

I don't think I would ever want someone else's children or to adopt for that matter, but it's really just personal preference (more power to those who would). I mean, if I had to I would, but I'd probably never really feel like they were my "flesh and blood". In other words, not so much *my* offspring, as much as a human mind that I'm training to act in a certain way. I know it sounds messed up when I put it that way, but, if you boil it down, isn't that really what you're doing when raising a child?

No, that doesn't sound messed up at all. I understand completely.

What the hell? I don't even remember starting this thread. This was originally a segment in another thread which kind of strayed from the original subject matter, hence my line "Don't you just love it when threads go off-rail?"

[alphawolf]

I'd never even want to date a chick who already had kids. The only kids I want are gonna be half mine, and born within wedlock. There's no way I'm picking up another man's scraps.


Well, if you ever happen to suddenly find yourself single when you are over 35 years old then you will have a damned hard time finding any woman near your age that will match your criteria.

I don't mind if a woman has 1 or 2 kids, but 3 is too many for me. Also, if any of the kids are still babies, then that is just not a good sign for her to be starting a new relationship already.

And children aren't scraps. They are human beings who need love just as much as you do.

[Hatsumomo1]

I can kind of agree with the OP, but for different reasons.

It probably doesn't help that I'm younger to begin with, but the main reason is that I get very uncomfortable around kids and can even be short with them. I can tolerate them for about an hour and that's it. This will sound harsh but I don't want to be with someone who's going to have their three-year-old throwing tantrums every five minutes while we're trying to spend some quality time together. It would be best if any kid I had to spend so much time with was my own. At least there would be that motherly connection, something I don't have with other people's kids.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate kids or think of them as just scraps, but I still would prefer that I avoid such a situation altogether.

[karenk]

Well, since I'm not going to have children myself, I probably wouldn't get involved with a male whom has children. This is a completely different reason from the OP so I'm derailing further.

[noueux]

My parents adopted four children before they had me (through biological means). I asked Mom once what she felt the differences were, if any, between raising an adopted or biological child. She said that when I was little and got sick and needed surgeries, she felt guilty, like it was her fault for giving me bad genes, whereas with my brothers and sisters, when they needed some kind of medical attention, there weren't any questions about it, in her mind- her responsibilities in making medical decisions were a lot clearer. Other than that, all the differences were individual.

[Anreader]

I really don't see other people's children as "our" children and that kind of attitude could get you into trouble. What about the Michael Jackson- its-ok-for-people-to-sleep-in the-same-bed attitude? Most people would agree that it is ok to sleep with your child but if you sleep with my child you are going to jail. If you give my kid a spanking, Im calling my attorney.

Other people's kids, regardless of how much you love them, or have respect for the fact that they are the future, are not your kids. They aren't even our kids. They belong to their biological or adoptive parents. And not wanting to marry someone with children doesn't make you a bigot any more than the "It takes a villiage" attitude makes you a hippie.

[Sesquipedalian]

I wouldn't marry a woman with kids. I also struggle with the notion of adoption. I question my ability to embrace the child as my child. It's something I remain open to, though, if my wife were infertile or if she just wanted to adopt. There are a lot of kids out there that need to be loved and need a family.

[pure potential]

Personally, I've always planned on adopting at least one child. If I had enough energy to adopt more, I would.

[Anreader]

I personally would not adopt although I don't disapprove it. I think the main reasons to have children is to further your genetic material, and also to leave your posessions to when you die. I want my genetic descendants to have my stuff and I feel like there would be hurt feelings if adopted children didn't get the same amount of stuff. And I wouldn't give money to someone just to make them feel better, even if I loved them.

[pure potential]

I really don't see other people's children as "our" children and that kind of attitude could get you into trouble.

Really? How so?

Sorry, but MJ does not count. Nor does any other reference to lusting after a child. This topic is about raising/loving other people's children, not lusting after them.





pure potential added to this post, 5 minutes and 53 seconds later...

I personally would not adopt although I don't disapprove it. I think the main reasons to have children is to further your genetic material, and also to leave your posessions to when you die. I want my genetic descendants to have my stuff and I feel like there would be hurt feelings if adopted children didn't get the same amount of stuff. And I wouldn't give money to someone just to make them feel better, even if I loved them.

The grand 'ole idea of "keeping it in the club" shows its head once again.. :rolleyes:

[LaoTzu]

I'm not going to handicap myself to some misguided notion that my genetics mean something. I like kids, they are genuine.

I treat my own son as a human being, not my own personal property. I treat him as fairly and with as much equality as I possibly can. Kids are NOT some type of 'carrier' of your own personal morality and socio-ethical framework. They are their own people. They are capable of their own opinions. They can handle options. I don't see your problem with 'looking at someone else's eyes' when seeing your partner's kids... because I don't see children as Objects.

This all goes back to 'owning' your significant other...


I think you should ask yourself.... would you date someone who cares for their parent/grandparent in their home? I'm assuming the answer will also be 'no'.

[HeyZeus]

I'll love them, I'll just never be able to be their father.

Right. You won't be their father. Ever. You'll be either the guy that's OK, or the a-hole stepdad. But that's not by definition, it's because of the attitude you're showing up with. A different attitude about the kids would bring with it a completely different set of alternatives as to how the kids viewed you. Mostly, they need love, attention, and affection. He or she that gives, receives back richly. Life's full of choices...enjoy.

[noueux]

I personally would not adopt although I don't disapprove it. I think the main reasons to have children is to further your genetic material, and also to leave your posessions to when you die. I want my genetic descendants to have my stuff and I feel like there would be hurt feelings if adopted children didn't get the same amount of stuff. And I wouldn't give money to someone just to make them feel better, even if I loved them.

I don't really understand this at all, but I do think it's good that you're not planning on adopting if your notion of adoption doesn't actually include that no matter how you bring a child into your family, once the child is there, it is your child, period.

I try very hard to support that people have the right to form their families however they choose, but I just plain don't understand people's reservations about adoption, most of the time. I think I understand the stepchildren thing a little better, particularly if the children are older, because that puts a person in the awkward position of being in a parenting role, but not wanting to take that role away from the child's other parent(s).

[Anreader]

Sorry, but MJ does not count. Nor does any other reference to lusting after a child.

Actually, I was not referring to the accounts of child molestation, I was referring to that attitude.

I treat my own son as a human being, not my own personal property. I treat him as fairly and with as much equality as I possibly can.

I agree with this. I don't feel like I own my eventual children. I feel like they would be a member of my tribe, a full member not some kind of second class citizen. (And to avoid confusion, I do not mean this instance of "my" to mean that I am the Leader or Owner or whatever, either.) Other people's children are not related to me. They are worthy of respect and fair treatment but they do not belong with me. Belong has more than one meaning than posession. Its why people join gangs, or clubs, or the military.

I think you should ask yourself.... would you date someone who cares for their parent/grandparent in their home? I'm assuming the answer will also be 'no'

Remember what they say about assuming.
You would be wrong. My grandmother lives with me and I am her primary caretaker.

I am not saying I would not adopt because they are not "owned" by me. I am saying that I have complex motivations and do not think that is the right decision for me or them. I am not saying that adoptees are unworthy or unimportant in their families, adoptive or otherwise. I am saying I realize my current beliefs and currently I am not the best person to be an adopter.

[Asinine]

I would marry a woman with kids. But, I would like my own genes to pass on as well. (Maybe I should donate to a fertility clinic...) It does worry me, however, thanks to a cultural tenancy I've noticed:

Ms. Thing gets pregnant by Mr. Fling. Turns out, while Mr. Fling is great at getting her blood boiling, he sucks at anything even remotely resembling responsibility, and flees to a new conquest. This leave's Ms. Thing with one or more kids, no time, likely almost no income, and no one to help her out on a day to day basis.

So, she notices Mr. Wallet. Mr. Wallet is not a very outgoing guy. He's had a few hit and miss relationships that haven't worked out. But, he has a good job with a good income and is stable, hardworking, and reliable (at least seemingly). Partially because of this, he's generally attractive in a social sense, but has almost no sex appeal. She catches Mr. Wallet's attention, and he begins to court her. At first, things go well. But, then they get married... And, it turns out she's just not that into him, and does not want any more kids. He's just something to assist in raising her offspring for her.

It's just the other side of the men using women for sex fear. And, also, what evolutionary trait gets promoted?

[LaoTzu]

I suppose it's my own personal philosophy that everyone and everything are one and the same that is driving my incredulity at this debate.

I understand the complex motivations of individuals, but at the end of the day... it doesn't matter who's DNA a kid has.

I look at it more as providing some stability to someone who may not have it otherwise. I wouldn't treat an adopted child any more differently than my own.... hell, I don't treat my son's friends any differently than I do my own... again, that's just my world-view manifested. I'd never ask a partner's kid to call me 'Dad' or anything as rediculous as that either. My son's been calling his stepfather his 'dad' for years, and to be honest, It doesn't bother me... he IS a 'Dad' to him as well. (my kid's lucky to have 2 fathers in my mind)

As far as taking care of your grandmother, good for you. But... the point was that someone is going to judge you as unsuitable to them because they do not want to 'adopt' that responsibility... I hope you dont think ill of them for it.



I suppose I should say, that I don't really care what people decide is right for them. What I do care about is that they acknowledge the self-serving nature of their opinions, and simply state it as such. :P

[Ender]

No, that doesn't sound messed up at all. I understand completely.
Strange minds think alike I guess. I think I'm not used to talking to people who aren't afraid to look at things in a purely analytical way (ie: too much emotion getting in the way <_<).

[pure potential]

Anreader, your grandmother is very lucky to have you. :)

[Anreader]

Asinine, men do that too. I have an aquaintence whose famiy is wealthy and the father is an ambassador. She got involved with a man with 2 illegitimate children who is a musician, who makes a very irregular wage. Her father pays the bills because she's his daughter. She watches the man's kids. He treats her like crap and she does ALL the housework. She has gotten pregnant twice and he insists she abort. So he has genetic offspring and she won't unless she pulls some kind of dirty trick, or leaves him.

[Asinine]

Asinine, men do that too. I have an aquaintence whose famiy is wealthy and the father is an ambassador. She got involved with a man with 2 illegitimate children who is a musician, who makes a very irregular wage. Her father pays the bills because she's his daughter. She watches the man's kids. He treats her like crap and she does ALL the housework. She has gotten pregnant twice and he insists she abort. So he has genetic offspring and she won't unless she pulls some kind of dirty trick, or leaves him.

I am not surprised, just like there are women out there who use men for sex. Like I said, it's a tendency. And, either way, it's exploitative if the nature of the relationship was not made clear early on. I thought to say something to that effect, but I lack personal evidence of it and decided it was not necessary.

But, hell, often the person perpetrating the fraud has convinced themselves that they really are in love, despite their actions saying otherwise, self image and all...

Edit: Considering the thread topic, live-in grandmother and the like, when courting one of the family member, you also end up having to court the others in a sense. Getting along with one does not mean much if the others hate your guts and see you as an invader. I don't know about other people, but, I can't make someone I love make a choice between me and their loved ones. It seems to violate something fundamental.

[Zhen]

I'd never even want to date a chick who already had kids. The only kids I want are gonna be half mine, and born within wedlock. There's no way I'm picking up another man's scraps.


what happens if you fall in love with a widow who had a full grown adult child? I think you can only really know what you'd do when placed in a situation...

[Freedom Geek]

I'd never want children period.

[Samoan Corleone]

Ok, people, this was not originally a thread I started. The opening post has been taking too far out of context.


Well, if you ever happen to suddenly find yourself single when you are over 35 years old then you will have a damned hard time finding any woman near your age that will match your criteria.

I don't mind if a woman has 1 or 2 kids, but 3 is too many for me. Also, if any of the kids are still babies, then that is just not a good sign for her to be starting a new relationship already.

And children aren't scraps. They are human beings who need love just as much as you do.

Oh man, I KNOW they aren't scraps! Like I said, a lot has been taken out of context. I'm 16 years away from being 35, I've still got plenty of time. I actually think I've found someone...


I'm not going to handicap myself to some misguided notion that my genetics mean something. I like kids, they are genuine.

I treat my own son as a human being, not my own personal property. I treat him as fairly and with as much equality as I possibly can. Kids are NOT some type of 'carrier' of your own personal morality and socio-ethical framework. They are their own people. They are capable of their own opinions. They can handle options. I don't see your problem with 'looking at someone else's eyes' when seeing your partner's kids... because I don't see children as Objects.

This all goes back to 'owning' your significant other...


I think you should ask yourself.... would you date someone who cares for their parent/grandparent in their home? I'm assuming the answer will also be 'no'.

No, the answer would be "yes". Caring for an elderly parent or grandparent is much different from caring for a child who is half my partners and half someone elses. It's not like I'd be a control freak with my future kids, as you seem to imply. I'd except any child of mine and allow them to make their own choices, not without my guidance here-and-there of course. I wouldn't be possessive of my significant other either, although I'd expect her to be loyal.


what happens if you fall in love with a widow who had a full grown adult child? I think you can only really know what you'd do when placed in a situation...

*slightly revises*

Well, being a widow is different. It's not like one partner in the relationship decided they'd made the biggest mistake of their life and filed for divorce, one of them died while still in a relationship. I'm currently undecided on that one. Other people may have ideas...

[Dresha]

I've stated numerous times in my life that I'd vow to never date a woman with a child, basically for the same reasons you just threw out there. Also, because some of these women tend to be looking for a new "daddy". I tried it out, dated a cute girl with a 5 year old for 6 months.... it didn't work out. Not because I was getting "scraps", as a matter of fact, I still miss the kid! It didn't work out because no matter what you do, the woman will always, always, ALWAYS have her priorities straight (if she's a good mother) - and those priorities will place your IMTJ ass fairly low - as she has a child, home, and career to consider before her man. Also, she was a crazy bitch (If I had to guess, I'd say ESFP). But that's besides the point. I'll never say never again, but the woman's going to have to look like Kate Beckinsale for me to consider.

[Samoan Corleone]

I've stated numerous times in my life that I'd vow to never date a woman with a child, basically for the same reasons you just threw out there. Also, because some of these women tend to be looking for a new "daddy". I tried it out, dated a cute girl with a 5 year old for 6 months.... it didn't work out. Not because I was getting "scraps", as a matter of fact, I still miss the kid! It didn't work out because no matter what you do, the woman will always, always, ALWAYS have her priorities straight (if she's a good mother) - and those priorities will place your IMTJ ass fairly low - as she has a child, home, and career to consider before her man. Also, she was a crazy bitch (If I had to guess, I'd say ESFP). But that's besides the point. I'll never say never again, but the woman's going to have to look like Kate Beckinsale for me to consider.

Well if I encountered a woman like that and entered a relationship with her, I'd alter my priorities to mirror hers. I'd put all the things she put above you above her and see what happens. If she was fine with that then I guess that would make for a working relationship. If not, she would be one big hypocrite.

As the old saying goes, "do onto others as they do to you."

[Dresha]

Well if I encountered a woman like that and entered a relationship with her, I'd alter my priorities to mirror hers. I'd put all the things she put above you above her and see what happens. If she was fine with that then I guess that would make for a working relationship. If not, she would be one big hypocrite.

As the old saying goes, "do onto others as they do to you."

Most people are, fellow IMTJer, and that's part of the reason why the relationship didn't work. I showed more affection for that child than probably anyone else in my life at the time, understood the focus of her priorities, and was there when she needed me to be. Unfortunately, most people are hypocrites- She would still want me attached to her, showing her unconditional love and attention, yet would not offer much in return.

When you date a woman with a child, the "compromise" is very lop-sided. I was putting in WAY more than I would ever get back.. something that doesn't fly from my point of view.