Romantically pushing for male INTJs

[krapyrubsnif]

I shall keep the question simple as often the most insightful comments come when you aren't overloaded with incidental detail.

Im a gay ENTP/ENFP and the guy ive been seeing for the last 3 months is an INTJ. He is very busy especially now.

Should I be concerned that he doesn't particularly push for me? (He has pushed for me on occasion, but irregularly)

Im know the answer is probably that I shouldn't be concerned. But Im also curious about how much pushing is considered appropriate by males INTJs.

And when I say push, I mean pushing for time, a date, a commitment, sex - anything really.

[reb]

when i have been 'pushed' (when i was younger, any way), if i didn't see/feel any solid connection or 'matching paths', i would allow myself to be 'pushed away'. happens fairly quick.....also, a 'smell of desperation for a commitment' will make my 'emotional baggage antenna' go right up and detect signals. a small amplitude of 'i wanna grab ya' wave, and i was gone.

if there is a solid connection, i might allow some pushing, but it won't be much. at this point in my life, i have no interest in any kind of entangling commitment. any more than a slight nudge would likely get me to backing away. to me, my work was paramount....if this is the situation here, and you interfere with work, that may be 'all she wrote'.

good luck!

[Kisai]

I'm always busy, its the curseof not having enough time to fit a complete understanding of the universe in your head.

If you're pushing and he's not responding either a) He's not that into you. b) He's really, truly busy or c) He doesn't know what a great person you are.

You can't do anything about a) or b), short of being able to assist the INTJ in his endeavour. c) can be accomplished by fooling him into spending some time with you. This can be accomplished by inviting him to an activity that he thinks is so much fun that he'll make room in his schedule or by being an excellent cook.

[Antares]

I don't think I would be concerned, since knowing INTJs (and knowing me), not contacting someone does not mean I've lost interest in someone; it's just that I have a fairly low need for seeing or contacting someone often. I would spend days alone and holed up in my room if it so pleases me; but that doesn't mean I like my friends or romantic partner any less.

[rwyatt365]

If you were to base that question solely on me, I would say (without hesitation) that you shoulddn't be concerned at all. My perception is that the INTJ has a tendency to become absorbed in "something" (work, a project, some research...) and completely dissociate from other aspects of their life. But rest assured that (if you had their heart), you are not forgotten. An INTJ, once smitten, is not one to lose interest easily - become distracted, perhaps. Don't assume that the distraction is the result of any lack of depth of feeling, or desire, or interest. Your partner has just directed his focus onto something else.

[Maayan]

Beware of the "Death Spiral." (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

If you're pushing and he's not responding either a) He's not that into you. b) He's really, truly busy or c) He doesn't know what a great person you are.

The "Death Spiral" refers to NFs, but I've always thought of it as being very applicable to ESFPs. The latter group seems likely to assume (a) or (c) regardless of what's going on. At least, that's the case with me.

My question is, How do you tell if it's (a), (b) or (c)?

[krapyrubsnif]

If you're pushing and he's not responding either a) He's not that into you. b) He's really, truly busy or c) He doesn't know what a great person you are.


Ah, but he is responding and giving me time :) I am mostly curious at what point an INTJ considers themselves too pursued and too invaded.

He just has a proclivity to not be able to make appointments last minute, or saying he will call/text and then inevitably doesn't. Though I believe this to be symptomatic of him as an INTJ. We are close, closer and more open than he is to his friends, but not so close that i have gained access his immense personal world in even a small way. Which Im fine about, these things take time. But as an ENTP/ENFP it is really hard, the thing that has allowed me to invest 3 months in trying to get to know him is the knowledge that once we are close enough for me to be involved in his world proper (if it happens, fingers crossed), it should get so much easier.

Plus I accept his non-verbal cues of affection, or "lack of intimacy" and his general internalization of feelings. I understand that what slivers he has shown resemble a far greater well. Its hard for me to understand as I am so much more external than him. But even if it doesnt work out its been great finding out and understand and getting close to such a type of person.

[Vagrant]

My question is, How do you tell?Easiest way to tell if he's not that into you -- he'd rather be somewhere else when he's with you. INTJ's usually only will be willingly around people they want to be around.

From what it sounds like: He is trying to make time now and then, which means he IS into you. I've never known an INTJ who would try to make time with somebody they don't want to be around.

[Kisai]

My question is, How do you tell if it's (a), (b) or (c)?


If it's:

a) He'll just ignore you, if he doesn't tell you outright to go away.

b) He might say something like "I'm sorry, but I'm just very busy." However, I've used this excuse for a) regarding family members. I would ask him about the nature of his work. Ask if you can help in any way. If he likes you, he'll appreciate the gesture, even if there's nothing you can do. If he doesn't like you, he'll go back to ignoring you.

c) The trickiest. Sometimes INTJs need to be beat over the head with the CLUE that you like them. You have to make them spend time with you. If they don't mind spending time with you, you're probably okay in their book. Then start making romantic gestures.

Or you could say something like "It would profit us both financially if we got married." and look at them. If they consider it, they like you. If they just tell you flatly "No", they don't.

[krapyrubsnif]

Beware of the "Death Spiral." (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

The "Death Spiral" refers to NFs, but I've always thought of it as being very applicable to ESFPs. The latter group seems likely to assume (a) regardless of what's going on. At least, that's the case with me.

My question is, How do you tell if it's (a), (b) or (c)?

Hmm I dont like the sound of the death spiral. At this stage I got a bit hormonally teenager-like and needy, so Im giving him some space though he seems to be quite forgiving about my relative inexperience and youth. He also got a tad annoyed because he mistakenly thought he had to repeat himself. I dislike communicating by text, but im actually rather pleased that after 3 months this is the first time he has been even slightly ticked of with me! And isnt even that notable.

Is it a) b) or c)? Well i dont think the question is valid as he wants to be with me and enjoys my company (he has never ever appeared uncomfortable or distracted with me in the lat 3 months as per Vagrant's suggestion)

Though b) is certainly true, he is very busy at the moment. I think c) is unlikely as he wouldn't bother with me at all if it were so. And a) well im constantly surprised by how much sexual passion he displays for me (we are not very regular as we dont meet that often anyway [hes busy]).

I dont wish to turn this into another gushing thread. So let me reiterate that Im curious about how what INTJs feel about being pushed and at what point they might feel they have been pushed too much

[Kisai]

It sounds like he's already let you into his space. An INTJ who feels pushed will not let you in his space or he'll go off to be by himself.

INTJs make horrible friends by dint that they will let large amounts of time go by without contacting their friends. They just forget because they're usually busy with things and don't usually make time to have fun.

[Maayan]

c) The trickiest. Sometimes INTJs need to be beat over the head with the CLUE that you like them. You have to make them spend time with you. If they don't mind spending time with you, you're probably okay in their book. Then start making romantic gestures.

YES. I wrote about a recent tale of woe in this post (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). I tried everything! I wrote him tall tales to amuse. I told him that he's got a nice ass. I hung around his lab and leered at him until my ENFP friend came by and dragged me out of there by force. For his thesis, he empirically tested mathematical models for bet-hedging evolution strategies using a common mold. So, for Valentine's Day, I drew him an anthropomorphic spore reclining languidly in a petri dish. She wore fishnet stockings and patent heels. I wrote, "Dahhhhling, I've been waiting for you all day. Let's colonize. Love, Your Spores."

He roared with laughter. He wrote me long letters. He really enjoyed analyzing the mechanics of dating with me. But he never asked me out. I gave up and got bolder: "I'll bet you there's someone who's got a raging crush on you right now, and you just don't know it." "Who cares? A crush is transient." I was close to tears.

Now, I just get men drunk. It works better.

[krapyrubsnif]

It sounds like he's already let you into his space. An INTJ who feels pushed will not let you in his space or he'll go off to be by himself.

Was there anything in particular that I said that makes you think that?

INTJs make horrible friends by dint that they will let large amounts of time go by without contacting their friends. They just forget because they're usually busy with things and don't usually make time to have fun.

He recently said that he really didnt want to go to a dinner party with his friends, but felt he had to because he avoided the previous 4. Was rather surprised but pleased that he told me this!

[SShack]

The key for me to realizing an INTJ guy is interested in you is -- as you seem to be discovering -- he tells you things he doesn't tell other people.

That was the big realization for me that I was more than just a friend with my INTJ guy -- I realized he was telling me stuff about his family and personal life that he wasn't sharing with his other friends. It took me a little while to figure it out. I started to discover his other friends had somewhat superficial understandings of his personality and didn't quite "get" him the way I did.

As for pushing too hard, being an ENTP comes with a mild neurosis about pushing too hard based on past experiences of ... um ... pushing too hard. So being aware this is part of who you are will likely prompt you to check with your INTJ to make sure you're not pushing too hard. So the problem sort of resolves itself as long as you remain aware of your tendencies.

[krapyrubsnif]

The key for me to realizing an INTJ guy is interested in you is -- as you seem to be discovering -- he tells you things he doesn't tell other people.

...

I started to discover his other friends had somewhat superficial understandings of his personality and didn't quite "get" him the way I did.



A long drawn out yyyyyyyyeeeeesssssssss (shut up spell-checker, you CAN spell it that way...)

I see where you are coming from! The very fact that I know he is gay is something he keeps from most of his friends. And whilst I am very sure there are other examples of him telling me things he wouldn't tell others I cannot recall them.

But the whole "I get him better than I see most of his friends getting him" comes out in the very fact that we just chat about anything and everything, and get on like a house on fire without needing an occasion around which to have fun in (like the pub etc etc). We haven't had a SINGLE date. But it doesnt matter, the conversation and interest and intrigue simple hasnt run out by any means. Plus he clearly gets bored of his friends as he cant be bothered to see them or occasionally involved me in his socialising because, and i quote, "My presence would make it easier".

And then the fact that there is, albeit little, intimacy, affection and moments of kindred spirituality is something over and above what his friends will ever experience.

And yeah, I dont think his friends get him that well. Im under the impression that they just see him as a bit of a character in a slightly peculiar but fun way. Something that he sees in me (woooooo!) - which is a more accurate description of me than it is him.

[SShack]

A long drawn out yyyyyyyyeeeeesssssssss (shut up spell-checker, you CAN spell it that way...)

I see where you are coming from! The very fact that I know he is gay is something he keeps from most of his friends. And whilst I am very sure there are other examples of him telling me things he wouldn't tell others I cannot recall them.

But the whole "I get him better than I see most of his friends getting him" comes out in the very fact that we just chat about anything and everything, and get on like a house on fire without needing an occasion around which to have fun in (like the pub etc etc). We haven't had a SINGLE date. But it doesnt matter, the conversation and interest and intrigue simple hasnt run out by any means. Plus he clearly gets bored of his friends as he cant be bothered to see them or occasionally involved me in his socialising because, and i quote, "My presence would make it easier".

And then the fact that there is, albeit little, intimacy, affection and moments of kindred spirituality is something over and above what his friends will ever experience.

And yeah, I dont think his friends get him that well. Im under the impression that they just see him as a bit of a character in a slightly peculiar but fun way. Something that he sees in me (woooooo!) - which is a more accurate description of me than it is him.

Yup, I don't really ever have "dates" with my INTJ either. We just kind of do things together. When he comes down to visit me we'll go to Disneyland and stuff like that. It's never what is considered a traditional date. Last time we had dinner at Disneyland's fancy romantic restaurant in Pirates of the Caribbean, but that's about as "traditional" as we get. We're actually planning a little mini-vacation later in the month designed so that my dog can come along.

And all his friends think he's a "character" too. He's a very upbeat kind of INTJ, and because he doesn't "share" as much as most folks, this gets him perceived as "goofy." Some guys don't even realize how smart he is underneath it. (That's how I can determine fellow gay intuitives -- they eventually figure it out)

I'd say this guy is very obviously into you, especially if he's still sort of in the closet! (My INTJ is in the U.S. military and is therefore professionally in the closet, though all his friends outside the military know he's gay).

I've learned patience with my INTJ. I don't pester him and I know I'm not being a nuisance because he frequently initiates conversations with me online and does other little things that indicates that he's not just passively responding to me. That your guy is inviting you along to make it easier to deal with his friends is one of those kinds of things.

It's okay to be the aggressor, as long as it's not always you. If you can calm your hormones down a bit to give you both some space (oh and it's not just hormones; ENTPs can get a bit overexcited about new relationships) now and then, you'll have a relationship with both of you initiating stuff.

[krapyrubsnif]

Yup, I don't really ever have "dates" with my INTJ either. We just kind of do things together. When he comes down to visit me we'll go to Disneyland and stuff like that. It's never what is considered a traditional date. Last time we had dinner at Disneyland's fancy romantic restaurant in Pirates of the Caribbean, but that's about as "traditional" as we get. We're actually planning a little mini-vacation later in the month designed so that my dog can come along.

We haven't even "done" anything together yet. There just isnt a need really. This is partially because he lives 5 minutes away from me, walking. Its easier to just chill than us both leaving our town to do something.

And all his friends think he's a "character" too. He's a very upbeat kind of INTJ, and because he doesn't "share" as much as most folks, this gets him perceived as "goofy." Some guys don't even realize how smart he is underneath it. (That's how I can determine fellow gay intuitives -- they eventually figure it out)

Same here. Goofy and not particularly seen as being smart.

I'd say this guy is very obviously into you, especially if he's still sort of in the closet! (My INTJ is in the U.S. military and is therefore professionally in the closet, though all his friends outside the military know he's gay).

He doesnt tell many people, especially not his mother. I often call, dont get a response and then get a "Im with a friend so i cant talk" in a text meaning - Im not out to this person so i daren't chat to you even if its innocuous.

I've learned patience with my INTJ. I don't pester him and I know I'm not being a nuisance because he frequently initiates conversations with me online and does other little things that indicates that he's not just passively responding to me. That your guy is inviting you along to make it easier to deal with his friends is one of those kinds of things.

We only have the phone to communicate through and nothing else. And he is rubbish with it!

It's okay to be the aggressor, as long as it's not always you. If you can calm your hormones down a bit to give you both some space (oh and it's not just hormones; ENTPs can get a bit overexcited about new relationships) now and then, you'll have a relationship with both of you initiating stuff.

Well often us agreeing to meet up is a mutual thing. I might send the first text, but i dont need to push or make suggestions. I just say when im free and we try and work something out. It has occasionally been him to send the first text. But that was before he became very busy...

[Uytuun]

I wants me an ENTP now. :D

You guys sound lovely with your INTJ.

[krapyrubsnif]

Lol :P I cant speak for SShack, but im sure that me and henry are lovely together. If it wasn't for my teenage insecurities leading to excess worry. There would be no pain in our relationship at all :)

So I know what to work on!!! (Oh and he needs to pick up his phone just a little bit more... :P)

[Maayan]

I've been told that this quote hits dead:

... Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make _sense_. :-) This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness.'

[krapyrubsnif]

Hormones dont make sense... I hate my hormones...

But the inexhaustible reasonability and directness... I have that written down in my notebook, I think it hits home perfectly.

If only I didnt have hormones... Then I'd make a lot more sense :(

(I know its my hormones, I recognise the biological signals when they kick in, and when they kick it, thats when the problems occur)

[Maayan]

On a semi-related note:

I've noticed that certain skills are useful in communicating with an INTJ. For example, they appreciate the ability to phrase a request directly and precisely. (It's also a good skill to have in general.) This can help you achieve the desired response and seems to work better than moaning and groaning and sending them "signals." For example: "I'm tired of holding hands and walking around town. Can we go back to your place and make out on your couch? I really want to do that." Mind you, I'm talking more about communicating with them once the relationship has been established; unless alcohol is involved, opening with a bold request before they've come to terms with you seems like it would just scare them away. Incidentally, I've also found that they're able to make sense of what I'm trying to say before I've come to terms with it myself, and if they're unsure, they know what to ask.

There's also the ENFP approach of acting like a kindly spirit who'll whisk them safely back to their computer lab before the clock strikes midnight, but I'm less clear on how to pull that one off.

[Storm]

Should I be concerned that he doesn't particularly push for me? (He has pushed for me on occasion, but irregularly)

I don't know if this is because I'm INTJ or because of myself, but I am very cautious when entering into a new relationship. I want lots of time to observe the person and my interactions with them without having any pressures of a Relationship. If I start feeling the other person pressuring me into a decision, I will back off. Sort of like how if you go to a used car parking lot (not implying people are used cars LOL), and you find a nice car and start looking at it, maybe even think of buying it. But then the sleazy used car sales guy comes by and starts acting all slick and :deal:. You might walk away even if you liked the car.
In other words, I don't like to be too far from the Exit sign in the beginning. I just like to be good friends with the person first. And if I find out we aren't compatiable during the vetting process, hey! now I have a good friend instead of an ex.

So, how much pressure is "too much." Hmmm....harder to say. I don't like to go on an official "date" until I know the person pretty well. (Although there have been exceptions). I don't like little love notes or anything like that until I'm actually in a relationship. Having deep conversations, spending time together is all I really need.

Don't know if this translate to your guy, though. Everyone is different and MBTI just scratches the surface. I wouldn't worry about it. If you're meant to be together it'll happen, just keep being his friend in the meantime. No hurry. 3 months is no time.

[ElstonGunn]

For example, they appreciate the ability to phrase a request directly and precisely. (It's also a good skill to have in general.) This can help you achieve the desired response and seems to work better than moaning and groaning and sending them "signals."

That's important. Have you told him in a non-accusatory way that you feel like he's avoiding you (or however you'd phrase the problem here)? Because if you haven't told him that, as far as I can tell you, speaking as an INTJ, you have no reason to worry, let alone complain, about it.

We're not mind readers. And we tend to have unusual social/interpersonal habits, like not requiring tons of time being spent with our significant others. But if you alert us to a problem, there's always a good chance that we'll want to solve it, because we like solving problems.

[SShack]

I can go for days without talking to my INTJ at all without worrying about it, so no doubt that probably contributes to his feeling of independence and therefore actually strengthens things. I've only chatted with him once this week. I don't know how often your hormones are making you want to call him (or him call you).

[krapyrubsnif]

On a semi-related note:
I'm talking more about communicating with them once the relationship has been established; unless alcohol is involved, opening with a bold request before they've come to terms with you seems like it would just scare them away.

Yes, I think it would be unwise to be too bold with him when there is no commitment. It would appear to him that I am making a claim over him, his space and his time when I have no right to make a claim. Best to say that I want to make out with him (for example) and see if he agrees. When we are closer, I could see him enjoying the forwardness and boldness of saying "Oi, we're doing this now".

There's also the ENFP approach of acting like a kindly spirit who'll whisk them safely back to their computer lab before the clock strikes midnight, but I'm less clear on how to pull that one off.

Well If you find out how to be this kindly spirit-facilitator, do tell. INTJ's have a tendency to trust little other than themselves. I think our job is to just not screw up when he places practical dependency on us. If we succeed with flying colours then they will more receptive and trustworthy of us being able to whisk them off and return home in time (or something similar)

I don't know if this is because I'm INTJ or because of myself, but I am very cautious when entering into a new relationship. I want lots of time to observe the person and my interactions with them without having any pressures of a Relationship. If I start feeling the other person pressuring me into a decision, I will back off.

You know I don't get this cautious impression from him. He doesn't seem to actively seek a relationship or necessarily desire it. But if someone comes along he will give them time and effort. Maybe not as much time and effort that you would EXPECT, but time and effort nonetheless.

But I defiantly think he wants to observe us as friends & as lovers (which we kinda are, even though there is no commitment yet) before he makes a step such as "I choose you". But I think this lack of "I choose you" is more symptomatic of his current situation where his time is taking up with being an abnormally busy lawyer and having to train intensely for an intense race around easter. I understand this and am making possibly slightly extreme gestures of attraction, but I still understand. (Damn hormones...)

I just like to be good friends with the person first. And if I find out we aren't compatiable during the vetting process, hey! now I have a good friend instead of an ex.

I completely agree! If it doesn't work I'd simply be a close friend without the sex and the commitment. Which is fine by me! I dont even want a big gesture of commitment, I just want to spend time with him. It doesnt have to be eros love, it can just be storge.

Plus, I dont make good friends easily, and i have none in my current environment. He is my best friend at the moment.

So, how much pressure is "too much." Hmmm....harder to say. I don't like to go on an official "date" until I know the person pretty well. (Although there have been exceptions). I don't like little love notes or anything like that until I'm actually in a relationship. Having deep conversations, spending time together is all I really need.

We've tried to go out dates several times, but something has always conspired against us. I dont mind. The dates would only benefit me by allowing me to say "Im dating him" which i couldnt give a rotten fig about.


Don't know if this translate to your guy, though. Everyone is different and MBTI just scratches the surface. I wouldn't worry about it. If you're meant to be together it'll happen, just keep being his friend in the meantime. No hurry. 3 months is no time.

I wouldn't worry about it...

Can't help it, brought up by 2 compulsive worrying parents. I have made huge strives at getting better at it though!

That's important. Have you told him in a non-accusatory way that you feel like he's avoiding you (or however you'd phrase the problem here)? Because if you haven't told him that, as far as I can tell you, speaking as an INTJ, you have no reason to worry, let alone complain, about it.

I wouldn't even phrase it as avoidance. I'd say, "Not making enough of an effort".

But he is making an effort that is appropriate to show that he does want to be with me, even he is forgetful or rubbish at keeping appointments. Im just being childish and a bit needy by wanting more. Though I think people always want just that little bit more from INTJs.

But yes, I havent talked about it to him to his face. So I shouldnt bitch about it yet ;).

We're not mind readers. And we tend to have unusual social/interpersonal habits, like not requiring tons of time being spent with our significant others. But if you alert us to a problem, there's always a good chance that we'll want to solve it, because we like solving problems.

I dont want to spend TOO much time with him, just a bit more than we are. But every time ive raised an issue (in person), even slightly innocuous ones. He has made an effort.

I can go for days without talking to my INTJ at all without worrying about it, so no doubt that probably contributes to his feeling of independence and therefore actually strengthens things. I've only chatted with him once this week. I don't know how often your hormones are making you want to call him (or him call you).

We chat on average every 3/4 days but mainly via text. We meet on average once a week. I dont text him that much, my friends think im texting FAR too little, I think im texting too much, as I dont give him a chance to come to me. But thats hormones.

But yeah, I would never want to step on his toes in regard to independence. For his own sake more than for the sake of our relationship.

[INFJ]

Ah, I can relate to this, especially on the INTJ "not making enough of an effort." My INTJ and I live in different states, and we communicate through email while we're apart, but of course he lets a lot of time pass in between his replies, while I reply immediately after I receive an email from him (ha). I sometimes feel I be being a bit too needy, but I do only see him about once a year, so . . . that's my excuse. :P