How much freedom do you give your partner?

[OneHertz]

When in a long term relationship, how touchy are you about your partner spending time with members of the opposite sex (or same sex if homosexuals are involved):

In larger groups of people?
In a one-on-one situation?
Alcohol involved?

[Josephine1012]

I strongly believe that people will do what they want to do and it is not my place to tell them what to do. I tend to observe the situation and draw conclusions based on the information they give me. For example, I would never tell my SO not to hang out with someone, however if it looks like they aren't interested in me to the extent which I find sufficient (translated: A LOT!), I first get my feelings hurt and maybe try to bring up my hurt feelings, then lose trust and eventually leave.

[ElstonGunn]

I don't give her any freedom. Her freedom isn't mine to give. If you're asking me if I try to put limits on what she can do and who she can do it with, then no, I don't do that. She's my partner, not my 14-year old kid. She can spend time with whoever she wants to. I'd rather someone left me based on her own choice than stayed with me because I told her to.

I know it's not that simple, but I'm not interested in either limiting her options, or constantly keeping watch on her, as if she's a hungry dog eying a steak. If she does something that I don't appreciate, I'd let her know about that, but I'm not about to start bossing her around.

[dalidaisy]

If you trust someone completely, none of this matters. I've always been confused as to why people have issues with their partner spending time away from them. I need my space & if my partner is a type that likes to be social, so be it.

If you are fearful of a cheating partner, you have far more issues to address than if your partner is drinking with a person of the opposite sex.

[Synamon]

Not at all touchy. I have no restrictions about who my husband associates with. Your partner is going to interact with people of the opposite sex on a daily basis their whole life. How they act is entirely up to them, you have no control over that.

[OneHertz]

Thanks for the replies. I feel the same way. Had a discussion yesterday with a couple of male friends and everyone seemed to say that they do not let their girlfriends hang out with other guys... Was a little confused with that myself.

[Solaris]

I wouldn't date a man who tried to stop me from spending time with other males. Most of my friends are male, so that would mean isolating me from nearly all of my friends, and that's unacceptable. Likewise, I wouldn't stop him from doing what he wants either. As long as we're open with each other about what's going on and effectively communicating, I'm surprisingly easy-going and open. But don't break my trust, then I'm done and won't look back for a second.

[OneHertz]

While I do understand the trust point, a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if your SO is spending nights with a person of the opposite sex in their house (sleeping on the couch of course) and both are getting really drunk? My ex did that and while I didn't say that she wasn't allowed to, I did get pretty upset and told her I believed that to be just bad judgment on her end if nothing else.

[alphawolf]

What if your SO is spending nights with a person of the opposite sex in their house (sleeping on the couch of course) and both are getting really drunk?

And having sex on the couch, too...

Got the t-shirt.

[dalidaisy]

Well, I don't think any significant other of mine would be getting drunk & spending nights with another person anyway, so it's hard to say. Why is she your ex? Undoubtedly there was something missing there or you would still be with her, right? If you find the right person, they won't do things that make you uncomfortable & they will be trustworthy. At least that's how I feel...

[Solaris]

While I do understand the trust point, a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if your SO is spending nights with a person of the opposite sex in their house (sleeping on the couch of course) and both are getting really drunk? My ex did that and while I didn't say that she wasn't allowed to, I did get pretty upset and told her I believed that to be just bad judgment on her end if nothing else.

So you'd rather she drove drunk instead?

I'm not faulting you for not liking that situation, you are free to prefer what you like. I'm just questioning how her staying over was a bad idea if she was drunk and so was everyone else present.

[karenk]

A relationship can't be kept in a bubble. Also, if a relationship brings these kinds of limits then it hinders the people in the relationship from growing.

[Caramel]

What if your SO is spending nights with a person of the opposite sex in their house (sleeping on the couch of course) and both are getting really drunk?

I've done this myself a couple of times. Most of my friends are male, thats the curse of being a female xNTx I guess. So if I can get drunk with my friends, my SO can get drunk with his. So I agree entirely with Solaris here.

[wotsamattaU]

It pays to have your eyes open, particularly if the individuals have displayed flirty behavior in the past.

My spouse has his freedom, as I very much value mine. I trust him. I do not trust the females around him.

Females throw themselves at him right in front of me, no matter where we are.

He is often clueless and thinks they are just being 'nice'.

[Maayan]

As much freedom as I'd give myself.

I have big qualms about "giving" or "taking" my boyfriend's freedom, or vice versa. If I'm monogamous, for example, it's because that person satisfies me; not because I'm doing it "for the sake of the relationship" or some similar extrinsic motivation. I realize that's a personal preference.

[Chisos]

Hey, if some guy wants to go for my borderline personality disorder wife, more power to him.

Seriously, fidelity is about the only thing I feel I can trust and depend on from my wife.

If she got real drunk around males whom I do not know, I would be concerned about someone taking advantage of her when she is passed out.

She will get drunk at her sisters, and spend the night. But I can rationalize that, since: (a) she is not driving; and (b) if she came home intoxicated, I would be berated by a drunk, pissed off, BPD and informed that I'm the cause of everything that is "not right" in her life, along with a list of each of those "not right" items.

Sorry, I could not resist providing this dark response. Dark, but true.

I beleive that people are going to do what people are going to do--it is just a matter of time.

You cannot control other people. You can only try to control yourself.

[ToC]

Hey, if some guy wants to go for my borderline personality disorder wife, more power to him.

Seriously, fidelity is about the only thing I feel I can trust and depend on from my wife.

If she got real drunk around males whom I do not know, I would be concerned about someone taking advantage of her when she is passed out.

She will get drunk at her sisters, and spend the night. But I can rationalize that, since: (a) she is not driving; and (b) if she came home intoxicated, I would be berated by a drunk, pissed off, BPD and informed that I'm the cause of everything that is "not right" in her life, along with a list of each of those "not right" items.

Sorry, I could not resist providing this dark response. Dark, but true.

I beleive that people are going to do what people are going to do--it is just a matter of time.

You cannot control other people. You can only try to control yourself.

Is it the battle axe ESTJ mother that's keeping you from divorcing her?

[Merle]

I would never try and limit what my boyfriend did with HIS time, assuming of course that it wasn't having sex with other people, both he and I see friends of the opposite sex without each other on a regular basis...I very occasionally might get a little twinge of something that's not quite worry.. but nearly, that he could, maybe like one of those female friends in a romantic way... but it's very rare and very fleeting, and I figure probably quite normal.
I would leave a relationship if someone tried to impose any such behavioural rules on me, and I can't imagine wanting to impose them on anyone else.

If you need to impose such rules, because there's a real chance your partner is going to cheat/ blah/ whatever,there's something seriously wrong with the relationship anyway and there's no point in being in it.

[boldbidder]

I've never imposed any rules on an SO, on the contrary I encourage them to do things with out me because I know I need my alone time.

However, after a little thought, I realize that I've never dated a woman who had just tons and tons of male friends so I can't say if that would change my feelings, I doubt it though.

[Harmony]

I'm not touchy at all. I've got many guy friends, and many girl friends. I'm also extremely good friends with several exes. I would be a hypocrite if I put restrictions on my SO or anyone I was dating. As long as they can accept that I do have friends that are of the opposite sex, I'm cool with his friends as well.

[Indubitably]

In total agreement with the majority on this one. A relationship is not a contract, no one posses or has authority over their SO. As far as I am concerned, a girl friend is just a best friend that I happen to also be sleeping with, and whom I would rather be sleeping with than anyone else. If my feelings change to the point that I honestly don't want to be with her romantically any more, I'd tell her and hopefully we would figure out how to go back to just being really good friends. I certainly hope any girl I was with would show me the same respect.

[True Rune]

I wouldn't care who she hangs out with really. But I wouldn't date a "get drunk and pass out somewhere" kind of girl anyway. Lots of freedom and independence on both sides is great, though there would be other things to it as I probably wouldn't date a non-Christian.

That is if I ever date again.

[LvHmBirth]

Thanks for the replies. I feel the same way. Had a discussion yesterday with a couple of male friends and everyone seemed to say that they do not let their girlfriends hang out with other guys... Was a little confused with that myself.

As a female INTJ, many of my friends were male. I use the past tense because while we are still friends (I know I could contact them and we'd pick up where we left off), their wives have made it known that they don't approve of us socializing without the wives, or my husband, also being around.

So, it's a view held by other women, of their boyfriends/husbands, as well.

In my marriage, we have a fair amount of freedom, and don't limit the other person's social time with others. If alcohol were involved, we would both prefer the other person err on the side of safety (i.e., not drunk driving), but most likely, we'd just call and get picked up and returned home.

[Freedom Geek]

Meh. Their life.

[Antares]

When in a long term relationship, how touchy are you about your partner spending time with members of the opposite sex (or same sex if homosexuals are involved):

In larger groups of people?
In a one-on-one situation?
Alcohol involved?

I don't know about 'giving' any freedoms, since freedom was never taken. If the said partner was unfaithful in the first two situations, then I can quite calmly and rationally call it quits. I would not recommend that they get too drunk especially in the presence of the opposite sex, but I can't stop them. That said, though, I have every right to act should I find something distasteful, and if that's not 'giving freedom', then perhaps I don't know what is. I'll make my stance clear; he's aware of what might happen if he breaches it.

[rwyatt365]

I believe that every person has the intrinsic right to live their life as an individual within a relationship. Trust, or no trust is irrelevant (to me). I have no right to attempt to dictate who my partner should spend time with, or for how long, or under what circhumstances (and vice-versa).

I do, however, feel that every participant in a relationship has the ability to make known how things that their partner does affects them. So, if I feel twinges of jealousy if my partner goes out all night with Bob (which I don't), then I should let her know that. How she chooses to act, armed with that knowledge, will help shape my future actions.

You can't legislate emotions, and putting restrictions on one's partner is exactly that (in my estimation). As someone else stated, I'd rather my partner find "true love" and follow their dream than to stay because I "forced" them to. Is that love?

[OneHertz]

You guys are picking at my wording too much, english is my third language :)

I should rephrase it from giving freedom to "being comfortable with your partner doing such things".

[Josephine1012]

I believe that every person has the intrinsic right to live their life as an individual within a relationship. Trust, or no trust is irrelevant (to me). I have no right to attempt to dictate who my partner should spend time with, or for how long, or under what circhumstances (and vice-versa).

I do, however, feel that every participant in a relationship has the ability to make known how things that their partner does affects them. So, if I feel twinges of jealousy if my partner goes out all night with Bob (which I don't), then I should let her know that. How she chooses to act, armed with that knowledge, will help shape my future actions.

You can't legislate emotions, and putting restrictions on one's partner is exactly that (in my estimation). As someone else stated, I'd rather my partner find "true love" and follow their dream than to stay because I "forced" them to. Is that love?

This is a great post and I agree with it whole-heartedly. The only control a person ever really has is over themselves, anyone who deludes themselves into thinking otherwise is in for a rude awakening. Depending on the personality of your partner they will react by either resenting you, lying to you, or blatantly ignoring your attempts to instill rules. Either way this isn't a good foundation for a relationship.



You guys are picking at my wording too much, english is my third language :)

I should rephrase it from giving freedom to "being comfortable with your partner doing such things".

Ahhhhh, I see what you're trying to say. I think this question can only be answered in a specific context. To be honest, the only way I would act that way in a relationship, is if I'm unhappy and restless. Having said that, it is your choice on how you cope with this.

I do think your best bet is to think about how this effects you, if it bothers you than that's your answer. Who cares if it doesn't bother anyone else, in order for a relationship to work people have to respect each other's feelings and insecurities. You can't control what she does, but you can most certainly let her know it isn't making you happy.

[PortInStorm]

You guys are picking at my wording too much, english is my third language :)

I should rephrase it from giving freedom to "being comfortable with your partner doing such things".
Really? Kudos, I don't even have a second.

But if that's the jist, then what I'm comfortable honestly depends on how the relationship is going to a certain extent. If it's going really well then obviously I'm going to feel more hurt at less blatant action. But my first line of defense is really dealing with it myself, asking myself why I'm feeling that way, thinking it through to see if the reaction was reasonable. If I still feel it was, tell them. I used to just react and let them "figure it out" by my actions, but I'm not a fan of that method anymore. Trying something new now when a relationship is important to me and I think the communication effort will possibly pay off in change of behaviour.

[josephine]

A lot of people are focusing on the "control" aspect, but it really is not about that (unless it's an extreme, unhealthy relationship). Most people aren't out to "control" their partners when they ask that they not do things like get drunk and sleep over at the homes of opposite sex friends. It's more about having respect for the relationship. By doing that, you're putting yourself in a situation where something could happen with the friend. People are not completely in control of their faculties when drunk. What if the friend fails to respect your relationship, and makes a move on you while you're both drunk? In this case, you might not be thinking clearly, and you might end up doing something that you regret later. And honestly, I'd be more inclined to blame the person in the relationship rather than the friend, since the friend had no commitment to honor.

You can't legislate emotions, and putting restrictions on one's partner is exactly that (in my estimation). As someone else stated, I'd rather my partner find "true love" and follow their dream than to stay because I "forced" them to. Is that love?

Yeah, but emotions don't spring out of nowhere. If you spend an inordinate amount of time with opposite sex friends (sleeping over at their apartment while drunk), emotions may develop where none would have developed before. To some degree, you CAN choose who you fall in love with. If you're already taken, it's probably a bad idea to put yourself in situations with other people where something could develop.

It's also not about "forcing" anyone to stay with you. The person needs to do some introspection to decide whether they TRULY want to be with you. Then they can either break up or commit fully to the relationship. They don't get to have you on the hook while looking for "true love" and exploring other avenues. If my hypothetical s.o. wanted to sleep over with female friends, he would be free to do so - - after I dumped him. I don't like wishy washy people. If someone REALLY likes you and is crazy about you, they won't be getting drunk and sleeping over with opposite sex friends. This is way over the line for me.

[nacht]

When in a long term relationship, how touchy are you about your partner spending time with members of the opposite sex (or same sex if homosexuals are involved):

In larger groups of people?
In a one-on-one situation?
Alcohol involved?

If you love someone, let them go.

I don't "give" partners any freedom: I don't maintain the illusion that it is mine to "give." Relationships are all about negotiation, and so if I do not feel my needs are being met I will negotiate. If I am uncomfortable with something, we can discuss it.

Jealousy Management for Love and Profit, or, how to fix a broken refrigerator (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) is worth reading.

[josephine]

Nacht: I'm not sure if you're referring to a general situation where one partner is too controlling, or to the specific situation set forth by OneHertz. I don't think that not wanting your girlfriend/boyfriend to get drunk and sleep over with opposite sex friends makes you a candidate for jealousy management.

You said: "If you love someone, let them go". Well it's not about letting someone go. I (and many others), have certain standards of behavior that we expect our partner to meet. If those standards are not met, the person SHOULD go, because I certainly would not be willing to have them around. It's great that you're willing to negotiate. However, there are certain things that are not up for negotiation, at least not for me. So if they want to go, they should go. But as long as they're with me, they need to respect me and our relationship.

The whole "I'll do what I want, and you can't stop me, you control freak" is something that I hear a lot. What people don't get is that it's not about being controlled (barring extreme cases). If you're doing something that REALLY makes the person you love uncomfortable, you'll stop. This will be done out of love and respect for the person. Again, I'm excluding exceptional circumstances, like if the person wants you to stop calling all your friends and family.

It seems (this is just my perception) that people are VERY excessively worried about falling into a trap of being controlled. (Actually, the ones who do end up in abusive relationships were never the hyper-vigilant ones to begin with.) In my experience, there are fewer people who have the pathological need to control others than there are people who simply don't respect their relationships. The more one of the partners disrespects the relationship ("you can't tell me what to do"), the more "controlling" the other partner gets. This is largely because they're worried and don't want to lose their bf/gf. If you truly love them, I don't see why it's so bad to alleviate their worries by agreeing to their more reasonable requests (such as not spending drunken nights with guy friends).

Something in the article you cited caught my attention:
"In a relationship, a fear or an insecurity is a symptom of a problem."

No, it's not. It's an evolutionarily programmed behavior. Jealousy was adaptive for our ancestors in retaining partners and averting/predicting infidelity, so it's actually a very useful thing. Of course, there are people who are TOO jealous, and need to reign it in. But jealousy can be used to your advantage, like fear. If you jump at every shadow and are afraid of everything, then fear won't really help you. But if you fine-tune your senses so that they detect information at the subconscious level, and synthesize the important bits of information to predict potentially dangerous events, then fear is actually useful (this is like subconscious logic - it's very fast, and works even when you're not consciously paying attention to the relevant stimuli).

Also, there are some situations that your romantic partner can get into that SHOULD arouse jealousy. In these cases, jealousy is a warning sign that something might be wrong in THEIR head. Hence, you can either ask them to refrain from the behavior, or dump them. So jealousy is NOT always a fault in the person who is jealous. Sometimes it's just smart to be jealous - call it self-preservation.

[firebee]

I'm apparently a weird creature in that "finding other people attractive" is something that I find attractive. So from my point of view, a partner spending the night on the couch of someone they might find appealing sounds... kinda disappointing.

Which is not to say that I'm not capable of jealousy, just that it's not that which causes it, and what does is not exactly something I want to put on a pedestal.

[Necrosis]

A lot of people are focusing on the "control" aspect, but it really is not about that (unless it's an extreme, unhealthy relationship). Most people aren't out to "control" their partners when they ask that they not do things like get drunk and sleep over at the homes of opposite sex friends. It's more about having respect for the relationship. By doing that, you're putting yourself in a situation where something could happen with the friend. People are not completely in control of their faculties when drunk. What if the friend fails to respect your relationship, and makes a move on you while you're both drunk? In this case, you might not be thinking clearly, and you might end up doing something that you regret later. And honestly, I'd be more inclined to blame the person in the relationship rather than the friend, since the friend had no commitment to honor.

You can't legislate emotions, and putting restrictions on one's partner is exactly that (in my estimation). As someone else stated, I'd rather my partner find "true love" and follow their dream than to stay because I "forced" them to. Is that love?

Yeah, but emotions don't spring out of nowhere. If you spend an inordinate amount of time with opposite sex friends (sleeping over at their apartment while drunk), emotions may develop where none would have developed before. To some degree, you CAN choose who you fall in love with. If you're already taken, it's probably a bad idea to put yourself in situations with other people where something could develop.

It's also not about "forcing" anyone to stay with you. The person needs to do some introspection to decide whether they TRULY want to be with you. Then they can either break up or commit fully to the relationship. They don't get to have you on the hook while looking for "true love" and exploring other avenues. If my hypothetical s.o. wanted to sleep over with female friends, he would be free to do so - - after I dumped him. I don't like wishy washy people. If someone REALLY likes you and is crazy about you, they won't be getting drunk and sleeping over with opposite sex friends. This is way over the line for me.

I agree. Your partner could be completely trusthworthy but you can't help the actions of other people if she is forced to spend the night at a friend's house who then tries to hit on your SO. Sometimes enough coercion can lead people to do the wrong thing they never meant to do. Out of respect, I think the SO should not place themselves in that situation in the first place and I don't think thats controlling their freedom in anyway. If they want to do those kind of things, they shouldn't be in the relationship in the first place.

When I'm single, I will go out and party but if I am in a relationship, I won't because for myself it's a respect thing and I don't need the wrong attention. I can party with my SO and friends instead.

[firebee]

You said: "If you love someone, let them go". Well it's not about letting someone go. I (and many others), have certain standards of behavior that we expect our partner to meet. If those standards are not met, the person SHOULD go, because I certainly would not be willing to have them around. It's great that you're willing to negotiate. However, there are certain things that are not up for negotiation, at least not for me. So if they want to go, they should go. But as long as they're with me, they need to respect me and our relationship.


Y'all are playing in different ballparks. And saying the same thing for different preferences, more or less. And... something else random. But yes. If people can't work things out well, they should shake hands and part ways.


The whole "I'll do what I want, and you can't stop me, you control freak" is something that I hear a lot. What people don't get is that it's not about being controlled (barring extreme cases). If you're doing something that REALLY makes the person you love uncomfortable, you'll stop. This will be done out of love and respect for the person. Again, I'm excluding exceptional circumstances, like if the person wants you to stop calling all your friends and family.


It's not "I'll do what I want", it's "You do what you want". Difference.


Something in the article you cited caught my attention:
"In a relationship, a fear or an insecurity is a symptom of a problem."

No, it's not. It's an evolutionarily programmed behavior. Jealousy was adaptive for our ancestors in retaining partners and averting/predicting infidelity, so it's actually a very useful thing.


People have all kinds of issues that come from solid evolutionary reasons. Sometimes they get in the way of what we want. In these cases, we can treat ourselves and others gently while we untangle the situation -- which is precisely what Tacit advocates in that article.


Also, there are some situations that your romantic partner can get into that SHOULD arouse jealousy. In these cases, jealousy is a warning sign that something might be wrong in THEIR head. Hence, you can either ask them to refrain from the behavior, or dump them. So jealousy is NOT always a fault in the person who is jealous. Sometimes it's just smart to be jealous - call it self-preservation.

Not a matter about fault or not-fault -- it's just how you decide to organize your life. But being willing to deal with jealousy and other unpleasant triggered emotional reactions with acceptance will serve a person well regardless of their particular expectations in a relationship.

[josephine]

It's not "I'll do what I want", it's "You do what you want". Difference.
Well, the person who refuses to respect their partner's wishes and continues to engage in questionable activities IS saying "I'll do what I want". And I don't think that's something that people should have to accept, or else be labeled inordinately jealous. If you're fine with your partner drinking and sleeping over at the homes of opposite sex friends, that's great. But if you're not comfortable with that, it doesn't make you an unreasonably jealous person who needs to manage their jealousy issues. In fact, I think that it would be wise to be on alert if your partner started engaging in behaviors like that (let alone refusing to stop when you asked them to). IMO, the next logical step is the demise of the relationship.


People have all kinds of issues that come from solid evolutionary reasons. Sometimes they get in the way of what we want. In these cases, we can treat ourselves and others gently while we untangle the situation -- which is precisely what Tacit advocates in that article.

First, I was simply responding to the article's assertion that all jealous is a sign of trouble in the relationship (and more specifically, a problem within the person experiencing the jealousy). This may be the case sometimes, but often, it's not.

I too advocate treating others gently. For example, the person doing things that make their partner uncomfortable could cut back on those behaviors so that their partner will worry less. However, there are limits. In the specific case presented in this thread, drunken sleepovers with male friends are NOT something that should be dealt with "gently". There is no room for tolerance there. IMO, that is very firmly a deal breaker. Say that you were going to marry the person - I sure wouldn't be ok with my spouse acting that way. (This may be colored by the fact that I'm VERY against drunkenness. I've never been drunk, and I never intend to be. It's just undignified and very...I don't know the word, but it feels low, and gross.)


Not a matter about fault or not-fault -- it's just how you decide to organize your life.
Well, the main assertion of the article was that jealousy is a flaw that the person who experiences it needs to deal with. This may be true in some circumstances, but definitely not in this particular case.

But being willing to deal with jealousy and other unpleasant triggered emotional reactions with acceptance will serve a person well regardless of their particular expectations in a relationship.
This is true. But dealing with a problem doesn't always mean that you have to bend and try to accommodate your partner. Sometimes dealing with the situation can just mean making it very clear that either the behavior stops or the relationship is over.

Anyways, these are just my personal opinions. I'm honestly surprised that so many people seem to find the behavior described here acceptable. I think that being in a serious relationship with such a person would be very nerve-racking.

I guess people should make these kinds of things clear early in the relationship. But I would never think to ask: "Hey, are you going to get drunk and sleep over with female friends, and then expect me to be ok with it?" This just wouldn't occur to me. :suspicious:

[dalidaisy]

Anyways, these are just my personal opinions. I'm honestly surprised that so many people seem to find the behavior described here acceptable. I think that being in a serious relationship with such a person would be very nerve-racking.

I guess people should make these kinds of things clear early in the relationship. But I would never think to ask: "Hey, are you going to get drunk and sleep over with female friends, and then expect me to be ok with it?" This just wouldn't occur to me. :suspicious:

This is what I was saying. If I had a partner, they would be a certain type of person that wouldn't do the kinds of things that would make me uncomfortable in the first place. I do not think any partner of mine would be getting drunk & sleeping over at someone else's house, regardless of the gender (assuming we lived together). I, like you, don't like drunkeness & doubt my partner would engage in a behavior that facilitated this.

However, if I choose a partner to be a part of my life, then I have given that person my highest level of trust. So, I do not fear what they do when I'm not around. It just never crosses my mind. I would think they would feel the same way. Sometimes awkward situations happen. Sometimes feelings change as well. If you truly know your partner, you must expect that they will do what is best for them. You have to trust that they will keep you informed of this.

[firebee]

First, I was simply responding to the article's assertion that all jealous is a sign of trouble in the relationship (and more specifically, a problem within the person experiencing the jealousy). This may be the case sometimes, but often, it's not.


To a degree, what the article speaks of are issues related specifically to dealing with jealousy in a polyamorous relationship. The principles in the article are linked to more general truths, but basically he's referring to patterns that occur in open relationships, particularly those that start from a traditional closed pairing. In that context, the issue of jealousy and what you do to manage it is rather crucial.


However, there are limits. In the specific case presented in this thread, drunken sleepovers with male friends are NOT something that should be dealt with "gently". There is no room for tolerance there. IMO, that is very firmly a deal breaker.


Don't forget the bit about being gentle with yourself. We can't help having emotional reactions, but we can choose how we want to deal with them without beating ourselves up for having them. As to whether there is room for tolerance or not... well, it does depend on the circumstances and on your opinion. The advice is there for the disadvantages certain thought patterns have in polyamorous relationships (and can sometimes have in monogamous relationships also). If you think you've got the problem, attempt to apply the cure. If what you do works, keep doing it.


Well, the main assertion of the article was that jealousy is a flaw that the person who experiences it needs to deal with. This may be true in some circumstances, but definitely not in this particular case.


One of my particular Achilles heels is feeling like I've been blown off socially. In general, when this thing that I perceive as a flaw comes up, it occurs in a context where I could easily claim justification for my outrage. I try not to do this. It doesn't have to be that you're wrong. It can just be that you want to be different.


I guess people should make these kinds of things clear early in the relationship. But I would never think to ask: "Hey, are you going to get drunk and sleep over with female friends, and then expect me to be ok with it?" This just wouldn't occur to me. :suspicious:

Not communicating is perilous. Particularly with INTs, where things are not always up-front and obvious.

[nacht]

"Jealousy is a disease, love is a healthy condition. The immature mind often mistakes one for the other, or assumes that the greater the love, the greater the jealousy -- in fact, they're almost incompatible; one emotion hardly leaves room for the other." -- Heinlein

Jealousy is a flaw that you need to deal with. Jealousy is incompatible with love, and the solution to jealousy is not "my partner needs to stop doing the things that make me jealous."

The negotiated bounds of your relationship may or may not involve an open model, that's not relevant: basic relationship principles are the same, because relationships are about negotiation and communication, regardless of the specific model or whether you are sleeping together.

Jealousy is an expression that something fundamental within you is not being met or is out of balance. For example an insecurity or feeling like you personally are not getting enough attention. These feelings then lead to jealousy.

The solution? Figure out what that core emotion is, and deal with it. Perhaps the solution is negotiation with your partner, perhaps it is just requires talking out. "It makes me uncomfortable when you do X" with an eye to figuring out why instead of saying "don't do X anymore."

Perhaps the solution is more time, perhaps the solution is that they can limit their time or activities according to what you negotiate.

The point is: its about negotiation and knowing yourself, just like any relationship.

I don't want friends or lovers who act in certain ways, the reasons why being practical and for my own comfort, but those are points I negotiate with them in advance. If I feel my needs are not being met, or am concerned about something or feel that something goes outside of what we have negotiated, I discuss it with them.

I own 50% of the relationship, they own 50%. I own 100% of my 50%, they own 100% of their 50%, and I do not own any of theirs or they any of mine.

Jealousy is something to be managed within myself, not something I should expect my partner to manage for me. The only one responsible for my emotional state is me, and part of that management may involving leaving the relationship if we cannot work something out.

[Lucid]

Wow. I didn't realize there were this many others who shared my views on this topic. I've never understood the "No, you're not wearing that out" thing or the "No, you can't hang out with that person" thing, or even the "Stay home with me, only be gone for a few hours!" thing either.

In a relationship I am still an autonomous person. I make my own decisions, I will dress as I choose, spend time which whom I choose and come and go as I please. So will my partner.

I have friends who have things like the "boyfriend veto" or the "girlfriend veto," when it comes to things like that. I have had male friends whose girlfriends have tried to physically prevent them from leaving the house. If someone did that to me, and in the few instances where they have, it brings the relationship to a crashing halt.

By all means, make your concerns known. I will do the same. If my hanging out with an ex boyfriend (for example) makes you insecure, nervous or jealous I'll do what I can to lessen that (bring you with us when we hang out for example), but I won't end my association with that person.

Each person involved in a relationship has a right to make decisions about their lives and to do what they will. Just as each also has a right to become upset about certain actions or to opt out of the relationship as a result of certain actions.

[josephine]

Jealousy is a flaw that you need to deal with. Jealousy is incompatible with love, and the solution to jealousy is not "my partner needs to stop doing the things that make me jealous."

Okay, but SOME behaviors are completely over the line, and if you feel jealous, it's not something that you need to deal with "within yourself". Sometimes the bf/gf's behavior is just plain inappropriate, within the bounds of what most people would consider a romantic relationship.

Jealousy is an expression that something fundamental within you is not being met or is out of balance.

Yeah. Maybe something is out of balance because your partner is acting inappropriately, and is triggering emotions of frustration and jealousy in a person who normally would not experience them. To say that the person experiencing the jealousy needs to deal with it on his/her own in ALL circumstances is simply not right, IMO. Sometimes, they are simply not the root cause of the problem. The whole point of my second post in this thread was that jealousy is not always a flaw - it can help you if you use it correctly.

I could agree with your model in more neutral cases, but this case is very clear cut for me.

It definitely comes down to a difference in opinion/values, and probably nothing would make me think that the behavior described here is ok.

And this is coming from a person who most definitely would not tolerate controlling and unreasonable behaviors.

[demaugustus]

When in a long term relationship, how touchy are you about your partner spending time with members of the opposite sex (or same sex if homosexuals are involved):

In larger groups of people?
In a one-on-one situation?
Alcohol involved?

If you have to wonder about any of these questions it means you're insecure.

[josephine]

Wow. I didn't realize there were this many others who shared my views on this topic. I've never understood the "No, you're not wearing that out" thing or the "No, you can't hang out with that person" thing, or even the "Stay home with me, only be gone for a few hours!" thing either.

Lucid, this thread isn't about that (not my posts, anyways). I was responding specifically to the case of the drunken girlfriend sleeping over at the male friend's house.
ETA: Not that you can't bring up that aspect, but that's not what my posts were responding to.

The clothing aspect that you mentioned - I don't care what my partner wears, but I feel that it's tacky or cheap or inappropriate for the situation, I might not even mention it to them. It would be one negative thing that I would weigh against all the positives in the relationship. However, if they dressed in a socially embarrassing manner - I'd probably break up with them eventually (after maybe suggesting a few fashion changes). I'm simply not going to associate with people who are a social embarrassment. Because in a relationship, I'm representing them, and they're representing me, in a way. People are going to form an opinion about me based on the type of partner I choose. (I'm talking extreme clothing cases cases here - showing up in torn sweats at formal events, etc...)

The "control" issue is just not as clear cut as you make it sound.

[demaugustus]

If you have to wonder about any of these questions it means you're insecure.

Or perhaps you should reevaluate who your "significant other" is.

[firebee]

The whole point of my second post in this thread was that jealousy is not always a flaw - it can help you if you use it correctly.


I think for some people issues of jealousy don't come up frequently enough to be a problem, but I still don't see how it is an advantageous thing to cultivate. Do you have an example of where jealousy would be necessary to handle a given situation?


I could agree with your model in more neutral cases, but this case is very clear cut for me.

It definitely comes down to a difference in opinion/values, and probably nothing would make me think that the behavior described here is ok.


Hehe, it's so funny to see all y'all INTJ people gathered in one place :). "You are by all means entitled to your incorrect opinion."

[nacht]

Okay, but SOME behaviors are completely over the line, and if you feel jealous, it's not something that you need to deal with "within yourself". Sometimes the bf/gf's behavior is just plain inappropriate, within the bounds of what most people would consider a romantic relationship.



Some behaviors may be, but that is a matter of negotiation and personal boundaries and then it comes down to violations of trust or dealing with insecurity or an equivalent emotion or schema, not jealousy. What "most people" consider is irrelevant, what matters are the negotiated bounds in your own relationship.

I cannot control how my partner behaves. I can negotiate with them, but I cannot control them. Thus how I respond to them emotionally is mine and something to deal with within myself.

It is not their "fault" I am jealous, it is not their responsibility to drop what they are doing because I am jealous. It is not an emergency that I am feeling jealous.

I can discuss it, I can negotiate, but at the end of the day the problem is my own insecurity or my own feeling neglected that is leading to the problem and thus is within me.

Violations of trust? Absolutely they are "over the line," but that's something else, wholly separate from jealousy.

Trust is something between us, jealousy is something within me.


Yeah. Maybe something is out of balance because your partner is acting inappropriately, and is triggering emotions of frustration and jealousy in a person who normally would not experience them.


Are you sure you "normally would not experience them"? We all have triggers, some of them buried deep, but those triggers are our problems to deal with. Others may trip them unwittingly (or deliberately, which is another problem), but dealing with those triggers is our own issue to deal with.

Not theirs.

This is very important: you cannot take responsibility for someone else's emotional state. They are responsible for theirs, you are responsible for yours.


To say that the person experiencing the jealousy needs to deal with it on his/her own in ALL circumstances is simply not right, IMO. Sometimes, they are simply not the root cause of the problem. The whole point of my second post in this thread was that jealousy is not always a flaw - it can help you if you use it correctly.


The root cause of the problem for jealousy is always within you.

The behavior may be a problem, but that's a separate issue and a matter of negotiation, time management, and dealing with people's insecurities.

Not jealousy.

[firebee]

I'd also add that IIRC the behavior in question was "a drunk person sleeping at the house of a person of opposite gender". Among the folks I hang out with, this is not uncommon practice at parties where alcohol is consumed, and I'd be more mad at a partner who attempted to drive in a borderline case, rather than just stay the night and not be tired and questionably sober.

Although part of this is probably that I do drink on occasion, and don't find it to be terribly out of line.

[josephine]

Do you have an example of where jealousy would be necessary to handle a given situation?
It can be useful in alerting you to your partner's potential future actions, or their falling commitment to the relationship, or both. I wouldn't know, though. This is a theory (but I'm pretty sure it's right).


Hehe, it's so funny to see all y'all INTJ people gathered in one place . "You are by all means entitled to your incorrect opinion."

;D ;D ;D Doesn't everyone think that they're right? When most people debate, they can agree to disagree, but obviously each person thinks he/she is right. I just come right out and say it. ;D Funny observation, though.

I have actually been swayed and reconsidered my opinion on some topics due to debates, but I guess this won't be one of them. What defines a relationship is very different for me than for you or nacht. I seem to have "tighter" boundaries, with a smaller range of behaviors being acceptable. (Which is fine).

[Perf]

Probably too much freedom for my wife. Right now, she's being coerced by her on-line dom into a hook-up with some black lesbian topper. I really am not going to end up getting much tangible out of that, but it gives us something to talk about over coffee.

[josephine]

Among the folks I hang out with, this is not uncommon practice at parties where alcohol is consumed, and I'd be more mad at a partner who attempted to drive in a borderline case, rather than just stay the night and not be tired and questionably sober.

Well, as I stated, I don't appreciate drunkenness, so our social groups are very different. My partner should not be in a position of crashing at someone else's place or driving home drunk. I would expect them not to get drunk and remain reasonably alert to begin with. So no, it's not like I'm so jealous that I would rather they drive drunk and possible kill someone or get killed than stay passed out at a friend's house. :)

[firebee]

It can be useful in alerting you to your partner's potential future actions, or their falling commitment to the relationship, or both. I wouldn't know, though. This is a theory (but I'm pretty sure it's right).


See, I don't know about that. Having a feeling that your partner is untrustworthy, or really isn't into you, or whatever is not lacking in utility, but I wouldn't quite call it "jealousy". I kind of see it as being the state of emotional reaction over some possibility, such that I can't think clearly and have difficulty acting properly in accordance with what I want. Not the awareness, but the unpleasant mental association...?

But then again, I have inferior Fe. It makes one less than trusting of extreme emotion.


;D ;D ;D Doesn't everyone think that they're right? When most people debate, they can agree to disagree, but obviously each person thinks he/she is right. I just come right out and say it. ;D Funny observation, though.


It's not my own -- it's a poor paraphrase of something said somewhere on teh internets about INTJs. On this forum I see it left, right, and center though. Your form for "agreeing to disagree" seems often to be distinctive, having an element of "My opinion is the right one, but you are entitled to have yours as well."

It's a J thing. I wouldn't understand. :D


I have actually been swayed and reconsidered my opinion on some topics due to debates, but I guess this won't be one of them. What defines a relationship is very different for me than for you or nacht. I seem to have "tighter" boundaries, with a smaller range of behaviors being acceptable. (Which is fine).

We may be having another one of those semantic arguments where we go 'round on what the definition of 'is' is. If you've got a given set of boundaries, and your prospective partner has got a given set of boundaries, and they're not compatible... well, 'tis time to ditch. Or renegotiate.

[Nikita]

She can spend time with whoever she wants to. I'd rather someone left me based on her own choice than stayed with me because I told her to.

Agreed. I want a relationship with someone who wants one with me. I don't need to babysit a grown man. His life is ultimately his responsibility. He is my partner and my equal, not my father or my son.

As long as we're open with each other about what's going on and effectively communicating, I'm surprisingly easy-going and open. But don't break my trust, then I'm done and won't look back for a second.

I second this. Communication is key. I think it's natural to get a flash of jealousy here and there, but turning that jealousy blindly into accusation is another story. If you're actually open and honest with one another, social relationships should not be a problem. And anyway, it's not the friends you know about that you need to worry about. If something's going on, it's most likely with someone you don't know about or is taking place at times when you are none the wiser.

[Lucid]

Wow. I didn't realize there were this many others who shared my views on this topic. I've never understood the "No, you're not wearing that out" thing or the "No, you can't hang out with that person" thing, or even the "Stay home with me, only be gone for a few hours!" thing either.

Lucid, this thread isn't about that (not my posts, anyways). I was responding specifically to the case of the drunken girlfriend sleeping over at the male friend's house.
ETA: Not that you can't bring up that aspect, but that's not what my posts were responding to.

O...k.... I hadn't actually read your posts and was neither responding to them nor addressing your points. But thanks for reading! :thumbsup:

Also, what the thread is about is really up to the OP, not you. I was responding to his question in some specific ways and also to the issue of what rights and freedoms I think each partners should be entitled to. You will be able to tell if I'm talking to you or responding to something to say by the quoting of your test in my post and/or my addressing you by name.

The clothing aspect that you mentioned - I don't care what my partner wears, but I feel that it's tacky or cheap or inappropriate for the situation, I might not even mention it to them. It would be one negative thing that I would weigh against all the positives in the relationship. However, if they dressed in a socially embarrassing manner - I'd probably break up with them eventually (after maybe suggesting a few fashion changes). I'm simply not going to associate with people who are a social embarrassment. Because in a relationship, I'm representing them, and they're representing me, in a way. People are going to form an opinion about me based on the type of partner I choose. (I'm talking extreme clothing cases cases here - showing up in torn sweats at formal events, etc...)

I didn't think we were talking about being the fashion police. I meant clothing that was deemed too provocative. And you're really taking my comment out of context. If what I was wearing was inappropriate for the situation (like jeans to a formal occasion) and my partner asked me to change I would. And vice versa.

The "control" issue is just not as clear cut as you make it sound.

What "control" issue is that? You're responding to things I'm not saying and why you'd assume I was talking to you is beyond me. No offense, but it makes you look rather full of yourself. What you or others choose to do in your relationships is up to you. I'm describing what I choose to do in my relationships; not commenting on or critiquing yours.

Also, when responding to individuals, it helps to use the "quote" button. Thank you. :)

[Muumeh]

I don't restrict my husbands social interactions with either sex in any way. He can go and socialize all he wants. It's not under my jurisdiction to have any say on with whom he wants to spend time with.

When it comes to things that affect both of us, for example expensive purchases, I do require him to discuss about it with me so we can decide about it together, rather than just letting him do whatever he wants. (He does that voluntarily though. If the opposite would be true I doubt we'd ever get married in the first place)

[josephine]

Also, what the thread is about is really up to the OP, not you.

The specific example was raised by the OP. I also find this comment, and some others, unnecessarily snarky. You seem to be way too offended by what I posted. Relax. I was clarifying what I perceived to be a misunderstanding.

You're responding to things I'm not saying and why you'd assume I was talking to you is beyond me.

It's a public forum - I can respond to any of the comments that I want to respond to. Why you would be annoyed by my responding to your post is beyond me. You don't have to be talking directly to someone in order for them to respond to your post.

No offense, but it makes you look rather full of yourself. What you or others choose to do in your relationships is up to you. I'm describing what I choose to do in my relationships; not commenting on or critiquing yours.

The whole point of the forum is for everyone to post their opinion. Why is it "full of myself" to post an opinion about how I think relationships should work? I'm not trying to tell YOU what to do - you can do whatever you want; I really could not care less. :rolleyes: That's why I restated that the stuff I posted is MY opinion. Too bad that you find it "offensive".

[Lucid]

The specific example was raised by the OP. I also find this comment, and some others, unnecessarily snarky. You seem to be way too offended by what I posted. Relax. I was clarifying what I perceived to be a misunderstanding.

Not what you posted as in your opinions about relationships. What you posted as in how I should be posting and whether I was responding to you correctly.

It's a public forum - I can respond to any of the comments that I want to respond to.

Not what I was taking issue with.

The whole point of the forum is for everyone to post their opinion. Why is it "full of myself" to post an opinion about how I think relationships should work? I'm not trying to tell YOU what to do - you can do whatever you want; I really could not care less. :rolleyes: That's why restated that the stuff I posted is MY opinion. Too bad that you find it "offensive".

I never thought you were trying to tell me how I should be having relationships. I thought you were assuming that I was responding to your post and criticizing me for doing so incorrectly.

And none of this "I was just stating an opinion!" stuff is what you did. You said that I wasn't properly responding to your posts and then proceeded to clarify your posts in response to my perceived response to them.

You're welcome to respond to my comments and you're welcome to post your opinion. But criticizing me for not "correctly" responding to your posts (when I was doing no such thing) is pompous. Just to be clear: It's not your opinion I find offensive, it's your presumption.

Let's just review:
Lucid, this thread isn't about that (not my posts, anyways). I was responding specifically to the case of the drunken girlfriend sleeping over at the male friend's house.

This thread isn't about you.

The "control" issue is just not as clear cut as you make it sound.

I was never talking about a control issue. I have no idea where you're getting this from.


EDIT:

Ok, on reviewing the posts in question it looks like an honest mistake on your part. My bad for going off on you like that. Your post reeked of this "I deserve to be the center of attention and you should be responding to me, not posting your own opinions!" attitude and for some reason I found that really irritating.

However I will say this: When someone is posting an on topic response to the OP, you should not tell them that they are off topic because they are not responding to you. It was the "That's not what this thread is about" comment (when it clearly is what the thread is about) that really set me off more than anything else.

[josephine]

When someone is posting an on topic response to the OP, you should not tell them that they are off topic because they are not responding to you.

But I thought the discussion WAS about the specific situation raised by the OP, not so much about unreasonable jealousy. The specific situation was what everyone seemed to be responding to. You raised the points about clothes, etc... It appeared to me that you misunderstood my POV and thought that what I was writing in response to the other posters was about jealousy in general, when in fact, I had a very specific situation in mind. It's hard to monitor how you come across on a forum, and I don't want to appear to be advocating total control over the three things that you listed (clothing type, who your partner hangs out with, or when they go out). That would kind of make me a nazi. I do have strong opinions on this topic, and I don't mind making them clear even if others disagree. But I don't want what I's saying to be misinterpreted/taken out of context.

If you personally are not interested in my post, that's fine. By quoting you, I wasn't suggesting that you MUST care about what I wrote. But other people reading the thread may be interested in what I wrote, and I don't want any confusion about what I meant.

[Perf]

Holy crap! I'm probably totally hypocritical in saying this but, private message all of this tit-for-tat crap. The whole point of the thread is completely lost here.

[MacGuffin]

I keep mine chained to the radiator, à la Black Snake Moan.

[OneHertz]

I essentially started the thread to see where the comfort levels were of the people on this forum.

I did have a situation in my last relationship where my girlfriend would go to her male friend's house and spend the day & night there and they would both be drinking quite a bit (a bottle of Scotch for an evening for two people). I did think it was a bit disrespectful of her to do that, but I was generally ok with it. The only reason I was ok is because that guy was her best friend for a very long time and he was the classic case of "wimp" (math major, INTP, horribly intimidated by me) so I wasn't exactly worried about him doing anything.

I got some good responses so thanks everyone!

[MacGuffin]

He hit it.

Oh yeah.

[magdalena]

While I do understand the trust point, a line has to be drawn somewhere. What if your SO is spending nights with a person of the opposite sex in their house (sleeping on the couch of course) and both are getting really drunk? My ex did that and while I didn't say that she wasn't allowed to, I did get pretty upset and told her I believed that to be just bad judgment on her end if nothing else.

I agree that it is bad judgement, if someone is in a committed relationship. Almost every affair in a marriage, or every "other" that breaks up a couple, started as friends. While it can be done- having friends the opposite sex, it's playing with fire.
It's not a risk I'm willing to take if I've made up my mind to be committed to someone, and I expect the same of him. In almost every case, one of the supposedly "platonic" parties is interested in more.
But, this is a a personal decision based on experience and research. What's right for one person may not be for another.