What are the signs that an NF chick wants to be more than friends?

[Samoan Corleone]

I'm curious. There's this girl, she seems very xNFx to me (I can't figure out whether she's I or E, or if she's J or P) and we're good friends, so I'm curious as to what the signs are that she wants to be more than friends with me. We've known each other for almost a year now and have gotten fairly close. Whether or not I like her is irrelevant, I just need some closure. I wouldn't be afraid to ask her upright, but that's my last resort. I'm not going to give away too much information, because she may stumble upon this, realise that it's me under the alias, and from there on things would just get awkward.


Things she does that indicate to me that she wants to be more than friends:

- Always playfully touches me.
- We've held hands before (only in clubs though, and she totally initiated that shit).
- Whenever we hang out, it's usually just the two of us.
- Says that I'm cute (no, judging by the tone in her voice it isn't in a "cuddly teddy-bear way sort of way), funny, smart, and a fun guy to talk to.
- Sometimes we have txt message conversations that last all night, talking about meaningful, thought-provoking, sometimes random, stuff and playfully making fun of each other, sometimes flirting. She tells me personal things as well.
- Once, when she saw me at the mall (we were still in the early stages of getting to know each other) her eyes lit up and opened wide at me (that's a good sign, right?). We smiled at each other, talked briefly then went our seperate ways as we both had other places to be.
- She points out certain things we have in common.


Things that would make me think she just wants to be friends:

- Sometimes she takes eight years to reply to a txt/email.
- Has other guy friends she tells me she unintentionally led on (possibly her way of telling me that she doesn't want to lead me on, but still wants to be friendly with me at the same time).


Other things:

- Her parents know me although I've never met them.
- Uses my name a lot (Robert this, Robert that).
- Sometimes we talk about the future and she said something like "our kids are gonna have it easy". I didn't notice it then, but I don't know if "our kids" meant both my kids and her kids collectively, or the kids she intends to create with me.


Once again, whether or not I like her as in more than a friend is irrelevant, I'm just after closure. I know this isn't the love forum, but I prefer the advice of this highly intelligent and analytical forum community than some brainless manwhore talking out his ass. Thanks.

[intjdude]

The one tip I've picked up on over the years about an NF is:

If she drops her panties, she wants to be more than just friends. It's guaranteed.

[Tranquillity]

neah, I wouldn't say so. If you have known her for a year and nothing has happened then she sees you only as bro. The thing is that as guys we are programmed to be over optimistic at reading the signs. If you are unsure, then you are more than likely wrong. If a girl is interested they are totally blatant about it.

[ToC]

They start asking for dude advice and they want your nuts.

[JohnDoe]

Kiss her the next time you see her (assuming she doesn't have a boyfriend). Apologize if its a no go, but I think the odds are in your favor.

Pointing out that you have already gone on things that any sane person would call a date. I don't go to clubs 1 on 1 with guy friends and hold their hands. Shes probably wondering why you haven't already kissed her. Do not have a "conversation" with her about feelings. You are going to kiss her, and you are not going to worry about the future consequences.

I'm an NF, so your going to listen to me. Don't listen to all the NT's here who are afraid of rejection.

Edit:
You can check my posting record, I am always the most conservative person in these types of threads. I have never issued a go for it recommendation before. Having said that, go for it! Now!

Edit:
Don't do this if you don't want a relationship. If you don't want a relationship, don't bring it up. But you do, or you wouldn't be asking this question. Instead your using a bunch of doubletalk to hide the fact that your interested in her.

You may want to edit your post to remove your name if that is it. If you can't, get a mod to.





JohnDoe added to this post, 12 minutes and 31 seconds later...

neah, I wouldn't say so. If you have known her for a year and nothing has happened then she sees you only as bro. The thing is that as guys we are programmed to be over optimistic at reading the signs. If you are unsure, then you are more than likely wrong. If a girl is interested they are totally blatant about it.

Going to a club and holding hands is totally blatant, enough to justify action. And a long time span doesn't always mean anything. Sometimes friendships do turn into more. Its very plausible that she is wondering about his lack of interest. Also, playful touching not being blatant? seriously? I mean what do you consider blatant, taking off her shirt?

[wotsamattaU]

I am (can't believe this) going to agree with JohnDoe's advise here. Close the personal proximity. Get close to her and see if she steps back. The first time she may not be prepared and she might back away. If so, wait until another time and try it again. The second trial should tell the tale.

Trying to kiss her will solve this question for you, and I agree - it does sound like the indicators are in your favor.

She sounds quite outgoing. Some of what you described sounds very ENF to me. If she recharges her energy in solitude, then you know she is an INF.

Regardless, she has behaved very flirty with you. I say get into her personal space and see how she responds to that. It would be very easy to slip in a kiss from there.

[JohnDoe]

I figured wotsamattaU might come in here and 100% agree with me for the first time ever, but I didn't want to jinx it. If we agree, then you should disregard whatever everyone else says and just listen to our advice :P Also we expect an update on how it turns out. :)

[Moriarty]

Samoan, I'm gonna make this easy for you. She totally digs you. Just go for it, man. ;D

She may take "8 years" to reply to an email, but you need to consider that your mind and her mind may not work the same way. Emails and texts are all about the ability to transpose thoughts and emotions into written words. For a "T", this is natural and easy. For an NF, this can be more difficult, and she may even be taking so long because she chooses her words very deliberately and carefully for her own reasons, which may include a hidden insecurity about not appearing intelligent enough to meet your standards. Never know.

Seriously, if you're interested in her, go for it.

[JohnDoe]

Samoan, I'm gonna make this easy for you. She totally digs you. Just go for it, man. ;D

She may take "8 years" to reply to an email, but you need to consider that your mind and her mind may not work the same way. Emails and texts are all about the ability to transpose thoughts and emotions into written words. For a "T", this is natural and easy. For an NF, this can be more difficult, and she may even be taking so long because she chooses her words very deliberately and carefully for her own reasons.

Seriously, if you're interested in her, go for it.

Yeah I completely take a long time to respond to emails sometimes because I am very very carefully choosing my words. Its an NF thing. Its also an English major thing.

[wotsamattaU]

I figured wotsamattaU might come in here and 100% agree with me for the first time ever, but I didn't want to jinx it. :)

It is unprecedented that we are seeing eye to...(eh)...'eye'. :suspicious: Most suspicious that, but also an indicator as to how strongly the NF's thus far are interpreting this (supposed NF girl's) behavior.

I'll third Moriarty's comment on taking time to construct our reply. It is not uncommon for me to do so, for the reasons JD supplied.

Personally, I have never acted so forward with a male - not even with my future husband. If she is an INF she is WAY into you by these accounts.

If she's an ENF it may be typical flirty behavior. Have you seen her behave this way with other men? Even so, would her parents know their names?

Many's a couple which began in friendship. For some it is the safest springboard. Life is too short to be wondering 'what if's' down the road. Gain the closure you need by closing the distance.

[Maayan]

Once again, whether or not I like her as in more than a friend is irrelevant, I'm just after closure.

She sounds like a nice person who won't judge you for being yourself. You could probably just take her out for drinks and ask her bluntly. "I get the impression that you want to be more than friends. Is this the case?"

[JohnDoe]

She sounds like a nice person who won't judge you for being yourself. You could probably just take her out for drinks and ask her bluntly. "I get the impression that you want to be more than friends. Is this the case?"

Don't do this; these conversations always suck. Kiss her now; shes given you enough signals that no sane person, especially a friend, would begrudge you if you were wrong. On the other hand, if your right, which is very likely, you might get much more.

Edit:
An awkward conversation could end up with a false no if you approach it wrong, say something stupid, etc. Kisses are safer.


JohnDoe added to this post, 7 minutes and 0 seconds later...


Many's a couple which began in friendship. For some it is the safest springboard. Life is too short to be wondering 'what if's' down the road. Gain the closure you need by closing the distance.
It can happen, it does happen, and when it happens it produces the best relationships.

Edit: She sounds ENFP, but could be INFP depending on if she is more extroverted only with you.
Edit: Maybe shes pointing out some guys think shes leading you on to say she is single? Just saying there are two possibilities here...

[Maayan]

Don't do this; these conversations always suck. Kiss her now; shes given you enough signals that no sane person, especially a friend, would begrudge you if you were wrong. On the other hand, if your right, which is very likely, you might get much more.

Kisses are gross if they're not solicited. It can get awkward very quickly if she's not into you. If I have a big ol' crush on a guy and I get the opportunity to act on it, kissing him is like drinking from the fountain of life. It's wonderful. However, if I'm not into him, I don't want to have to contend with his spit suddenly coating my lips. She might not begrudge you for assuming that it was a good idea, but she won't enjoy the experience, either.

[JohnDoe]

I didn't say make out with her, jeeze. You can always abort if shes turning away or something... wotsamattU's advice on how to do it is spot on. At the end of the day you absolutely have to take risks to get the cool things in life. This is a risk worth taking.

Edit:
I know people who have been dumped for talking to someone about their feelings instead of kissing them. There are people who believe that if you have to talk before you kiss your not worth dating. I don't believe that this applies in this case, but in general talking first is bad advice. (This is not permission to randomly make out with someone, you can manage to be smooth about it). All I'm say is that a big "lets discuss relationships and the future and what we are" is often unsexy and a turn off. There is no good way to have one unless you've been dating for a while, and even then it can freak people out.

[Maayan]

I didn't say make out with her, jeeze. You can always abort if shes turning away or something... wotsamattU's advice on how to do it is spot on. At the end of the day you absolutely have to take risks to get the cool things in life. This is a risk worth taking.

Edit:
I know people who have been dumped for talking to someone about their feelings instead of kissing them. There are people who believe that if you have to talk before you kiss your not worth dating. I don't believe that this applies in this case, but in general talking first is bad advice. (This is not permission to randomly make out with someone, you can manage to be smooth about it).

Let me rephrase. Regardless of his intentions, the prospect of an unalluring friend closing in on me with his dripping-wet lips jutting out and his face collapsed into an expression of blissful adoration (soon to be replaced by a stricken expression, no less) is a dreaded possibility. I don't dump my male friends over it, but I really don't enjoy being put in that position. I don't want to have to kick a puppy dog, even if it's just a little punt. It's sad.

That's just my opinion, though. If you don't care about whether she enjoys the experience, go for it.

[AnotherNormal]

*takes notes on NF advice*

*Raises hand* yep, guilty of talking first. Yes, it did backfire.

[Maayan]

*takes notes on NF advice*

*Raises hand* yep, guilty of talking first. Yes, it did backfire.

Backfired in what sense?

Again, speaking from personal experience, but if I'm really into a guy, anything that comes out of his mouth (whether spit or an awkward admission of affection) is pure gold. The magic of Dominant Feeling is that it trumps all common sense! If I'm not interested, however, anything that comes out of my mouth is just a lame excuse. "I was totally ready to go out with you, but then you asked me out. Geez! What a loser." Chances are that she wasn't interested in the first place.





Maayan added to this post, 112 minutes and 28 seconds later...

ETA: I suggested talking instead of kissing because it takes into account her feelings, regardless of what they may be. Risks need to take into account the people that they affect. Besides, Samoan Corleone said that he was looking for closure, not the best possible way to convince her to reciprocate.

[seoa]

Things she does that indicate to me that she wants to be more than friends:

- Once, when she saw me at the mall (we were still in the early stages of getting to know each other) her eyes lit up and opened wide at me (that's a good sign, right?). We smiled at each other, talked briefly then went our seperate ways as we both had other places to be.

Things that would make me think she just wants to be friends:
- Sometimes she takes eight years to reply to a txt/email.
- Has other guy friends she tells me she unintentionally led on (possibly her way of telling me that she doesn't want to lead me on, but still wants to be friendly with me at the same time).

Other things:
- Her parents know me although I've never met them.
- Uses my name a lot (Robert this, Robert that).
- Sometimes we talk about the future and she said something like "our kids are gonna have it easy". I didn't notice it then, but I don't know if "our kids" meant both my kids and her kids collectively, or the kids she intends to create with me.

Once again, whether or not I like her as in more than a friend is irrelevant, I'm just after closure. I know this isn't the love forum, but I prefer the advice of this highly intelligent and alytical forum community than some brainless manwhore talking out his ass. Thanks.
ok, sorry, but i'm gonna disagree with the Is... if this girl is an E, then their interpretations aren't quite right, i'm afraid...

as a younger enfp, i would do a lot of that stuff & not mean anything much by it... the biggest red-flag is her mentioning that her behaviour is often misinterpreted as leading men on... i have *frequently* used this one to try to subtly tell a guy not to take things the wrong way...

although i also used it recently to tell a guy that i was totally into him, because with him i wanted him to be led on...

your safest route is to bring the conversation back round to the: "so, you were talking about how you often give guys the wrong impression...???" and let her take it from there... i would absolutely take that and run with it, to set out what i wanted you to understand about how i was interacting with you...

but you will never be sure until you ask her out... which you don't sound entirely sure you want to do (you don't think it matters whether you like her or not, you just want to know about her interest??? well, i'm pretty sure that's about the most relevant point to her, if she's interested in you...)

[mel]

I think that she is probably as undecided as you are about this relationship. It sounds like she's trying to test boundaries, but if you dont do anything then it makes it confusing for her.

[alphawolf]

Just kiss her.

Just kiss her.

Just kiss her.

[Jouk]

She sounds very much like an enfp, and I'd have to agree with Seoa on this one.



My enfp friend:

- Loves playful touching, PDA (do we really have to hug everytime we meet?)
- Enjoys intimate one-on-one time
- Will give me verbal affirmation of her affection (“love you”, “you're a dork”, etc lol)
- Likes frequent texting/verbal conversations on all sorts of topics, sometimes deep.
- Is a very flirty with myself and other guys (sometimes unintentionally).
- Tells me stories about guy friends who have “gotten the wrong idea.”
- Has introduced me to most of her family and insisted on meeting mine.

We are just friends, and I'm very certain that she wants to keep it this way.


If you are unfamiliar with extroverted NF types, this behavior in an romantically uninterested friend is not uncommon, and can be very confusing to INxJ types. Believe me, I Know! Another thing to keep in mind is that enfps are naturally drawn to introverted types, along with the thrill of trying to figure you out. You might want to do a little research on the enfp profile, if you haven't already done so.


Seoa's advice about turning the conversation around and asking about her thoughts on giving guys the wrong impression is an excellent idea.

As far as closure, sorry I don't think anyone here can give you that. That's something that you will only be able to fully achieve by having a DTR. If you are unable/unwilling to have that conversation, you will never really know.

The question to ask yourself is: how much do I like/love her? Go from there.

[Tuesday]

I don't think I am the only NF female to respond here but she sounds like she likes you but is unsure of your feelings for her. Probably already stated here. While I may playfully touch my male friends(in appropriate places), I don't hold their hands. I don't text or email for hours.

The name thing... I do that to everyone. I don't go clubbing...I am not that social, maybe holding hands at a club is normal. IDK.

While I don't take forever responding to an email or text I do take my time thinking about what I will say as I write (then make a million changes).

Just laying on a kiss on her ... I don't know. It would depend on the situation. It has to be the right time or it can make it very awkward and uncomfortable. Coming from my perspective as a woman... I would want you to initiate closeness first, then maybe YOU taking my hand and holding it, then move on from there. But at some point you will have to ask her about your relationship.... clarify things.

Just my perspective. Good luck:-)

[Maayan]

Derailing this thread with a semi-related question:

What's the difference between an ENFx and an ESFx with regards to day-to-day body language? There seems to be a general assumption in the thread that arm touching, spontaneous hugs and other flirtatious behavior is a calling card of the ENFx. I know I'm completely guilty of all of the behaviors described in the opening post and in Jouk's post. However, I don't consider myself to be an NF in this particular respect, because the moment that I have a crush on someone, I'll keep on doing the same thing and hope that he'll magically notice that something's changed. I'll huff, and puff, and pull the exact same behaviors with all my might, just as before, because now they're signals why isn't he getting it argh. My archetypal ENFP friend, on the other hand, knows exactly how to play the character of the silly girl who has a big crush and who isn't afraid to show it. She's the one who instructed me to switch gears and send fake-drunken messages to my crush:

"HAHA. I'm sorry, I'm still thinking about it... it's too cute, haha... but I'm a little bit drunk, haha... I just came back from a bar with some friends... and... I'm really happy to hear a reply from you... and... since we're all heading out... I'll let you go..."

If she wants to fall in love with someone, then she'll make her desires a lot less ambiguous (and sound completely adorable doing it). She's very direct without being crude. So, if your crush is anything like my friend, it seems to me that it shouldn't be this hard to intercept a clear message in her actions. Maybe you just wish a message was there?

[AnotherNormal]

Backfired in what sense?

In the sense that it didn't work.

[Jinxu]

Once again, whether or not I like her as in more than a friend is irrelevant, I'm just after closure. I know this isn't the love forum, but I prefer the advice of this highly intelligent and alytical forum community than some brainless manwhore talking out his ass. Thanks.
There's so many competing advices here. I find that humorous. To the OP, there's only one clear way, you can find out and be sure. Just ask or tell her!

"Hi NF girl, I've been getting mix signals from you. Are you interested in me?"

or...

"Hi, I'm interested in you. What do you think?"

You can just email or text her those messages if you don't like saying it directly. You can even edit them if you like. Personally, I would like to see you try to kiss her just to see what would happen.

P.S. "Fortune favors the bold."

[JohnDoe]

Maayan: My point about having a big discussion about feelings came from the women who were on the receiving end. They were the ones who were unhappy about it. If your on a date like activity, and you want to know if its a date, its perfectly justifiable to just kiss someone (obviously with all of the disclaimers like try to see if they want to...) I would tend not to ever recommend someone on a datelike activity ever have a discussion about feelings. Now, if your not on a datelike thing, then a bit more discretion may be advised, but in general I'd feel pretty confident in saying that there are alot more ways that talking can go wrong then right. I know people who will have explicit rules to not date anyone who is not capable of delivering a kiss without a committee meeting. For the record, the only people I know who have been that blunt were all people who wanted to basically go back and make out. So in 99% of cases, your not going to get someone sending fake-drunken messages to your crush. Most likely scenerio: it sounds like she doesn't know what your thinking, so she doesn't want to be too aggressive. This does happen quite often, where two people both like each other and neither will make the first move, regardless of what Maayan says.


Just laying on a kiss on her ... I don't know. It would depend on the situation. It has to be the right time or it can make it very awkward and uncomfortable. Coming from my perspective as a woman... I would want you to initiate closeness first, then maybe YOU taking my hand and holding it, then move on from there. But at some point you will have to ask her about your relationship.... clarify things.
Clarify things after you guys kiss, but obviously don't kiss her if you don't have mostly green lights. Some people consider hand holding to be more intimate then kissing, so that may not be the best idea (but you should know if this is the case)

[Mozzes]

I'm not sure I'd come to INTJs for romantic advice...

[JohnDoe]

There's so many competing advices here. I find that humorous. To the OP, there's only one clear way, you can find out and be sure. Just ask or tell her!



You can just email or text her those messages if you don't like saying it directly. You can even edit them if you like. Personally, I would like to see you try to kiss her just to see what would happen.

P.S. "Fortune favors the bold."

Don't do this. Its hard to say yes even if that is the answer you want to say. This is why you never directly ask questions like this.





JohnDoe added to this post, 0 minutes and 45 seconds later...

I'm not sure I'd come to INTJs for romantic advice...
I'm not an INTJ

[Jinxu]

Don't do this. Its hard to say yes even if that is the answer you want to say. This is why you never directly ask questions like this.


How is using a kiss test any better?

If she say "no"; ask "why not?" Worked for me once.

[JohnDoe]

ok, sorry, but i'm gonna disagree with the Is... if this girl is an E, then their interpretations aren't quite right, i'm afraid...

as a younger enfp, i would do a lot of that stuff & not mean anything much by it... the biggest red-flag is her mentioning that her behaviour is often misinterpreted as leading men on... i have *frequently* used this one to try to subtly tell a guy not to take things the wrong way...

although i also used it recently to tell a guy that i was totally into him, because with him i wanted him to be led on...
I wanted to point out here that you wrote a bunch about how saying that if she says that she is often misinterpreted as leading guys on, it means shes not interested, and then go on to say that you used it to say you were interested...





JohnDoe added to this post, 2 minutes and 57 seconds later...

How is using a kiss test any better?

If she say "no"; ask "why not?" Worked for me once.

Because asking a question requires a unilateral answer that may lead to her getting hurt if she says she likes you and you say you don't like her. Alternatively, if you say you like her first, you put extra pressure on her. By kissing her your saying that you like her, while making it easy for her to say yes. Lots of people kiss at the end of first dates. It shouldn't be a big deal.

[Mozzes]

I'm not an INTJ

This thread was addressed specifically to you, hmmm? Listen, I was just joking around because, you know, INTJs are all completely lost on the path of love and all that jazz and this being an INTJ forum and all....

Having to explain it really does suck all the fun out of it.

[JohnDoe]

As a bit of a clarification: if you have never been in the position of having someone who has a crush on you ask if you like them, you should stay out of this debate. I am unfortunately guilty of running away from a few women in the moment because I didn't want to have to explain in words things I wasn't sure about. On the other hand, if they had just kissed me, I probably would have gone with it. Its very dangerous to spontaneously force people to articulate something they arn't 100% sure on.

[Jinxu]

1) Because asking a question requires a unilateral answer that may lead to her getting hurt if she says she likes you and you say you don't like her. Alternatively, if you say you like her first, you put extra pressure on her.

2) By kissing her your saying that you like her, while making it easy for her to say yes. Lots of people kiss at the end of first dates. It shouldn't be a big deal.

1) Sometime you gotta take risks to get what you want.

2) You can show her your interest in other ways beside kissing. Like smiling at her for example.

[Maayan]

I would tend not to ever recommend someone on a datelike activity ever have a discussion about feelings. Now, if your not on a datelike thing, then a bit more discretion may be advised, but in general I'd feel pretty confident in saying that there are alot more ways that talking can go wrong then right.

A surprising statement by an "F." What do you do if she's pissed off? Plant a wet one on her lips and hope it pacifies her every time? How the hell do you expect to have a healthy relationship if you're not willing to learn to have a mature discussion about your feelings? I feel very confident in saying that it's unhealthy to avoid talking every time things get uncomfortable. (It's also unhealthy not to know when to back off, but that's another story.)

In the sense that it didn't work.

Please refer back to my reply.

[Jinxu]

As a bit of a clarification: if you have never been in the position of having someone who has a crush on you ask if you like them, you should stay out of this debate. I am unfortunately guilty of running away from a few women in the moment because I didn't want to have to explain in words things I wasn't sure about. On the other hand, if they had just kissed me, I probably would have gone with it. Its very dangerous to spontaneously force people to articulate something they arn't 100% sure on.

That sounds more like a problem with the way you reacts to the situation more than it is about the other person.

[alphawolf]

Good god, just kiss her and don't stop. And don't be a wimp about it, either, do it like a man. Do it like you mean it. If she turns her head or something, then just start kissing her cheek and neck. Get her hot enough and you should be taking her panties off within 10 minutes after that.

Here is some reading for you to help your attitude:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[JohnDoe]

That sounds more like a problem with the way you reacts to the situation more than it is about the other person.

Read any book on negotiation, psychology, or sociology. People don't like conflict. Asking someone straight out if they like you is one of the most stressful things you can do. It also is almost like conflict, in that there is a great potential to get hurt. While I know that some people on this board can turn their emotions off when dealing with things like this, not everyone can. Especially not NF's! Let me be clear: communication is good, but sometimes you just have to go with it.





JohnDoe added to this post, 4 minutes and 16 seconds later...

A surprising statement by an "F." What do you do if she's pissed off? Plant a wet one on her lips and hope it pacifies her every time? How the hell do you expect to have a healthy relationship if you're not willing to learn to have a mature discussion about your feelings? I feel very confident in saying that it's unhealthy to avoid talking every time things get uncomfortable. (It's also unhealthy not to know when to back off, but that's another story.).

Err, its bad to have a discussion about feelings before you know if there are any. Once your in a relationship, fine.





JohnDoe added to this post, 0 minutes and 56 seconds later...

1) Sometime you gotta take risks to get what you want.

2) You can show her your interest in other ways beside kissing. Like smiling at her for example.

I smile at everyone. Thats not very useful.





JohnDoe added to this post, 1 minutes and 36 seconds later...

Good god, just kiss her and don't stop. And don't be a wimp about it, either, do it like a man. Do it like you mean it. If she turns her head or something, then just start kissing her cheek and neck. Get her hot enough and you should be taking her panties off within 10 minutes after that.

Here is some reading for you to help your attitude:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can't endorse being that aggressive, but that is a good blog with lots of good articles.

[Sinequanon]

I wonder if, besides all the normal apprehension, if there's a reason you don't want to just (get closer to her and all that jazz and then) kiss her?

[alphawolf]

I can't endorse being that aggressive, but that is a good blog with lots of good articles.

Well, every hot babe I've ever been with (even the introverts) tells me stories about all the wimps that have tried to date her. You should hear how they make fun of these guys (you probably have). It is just freaking hilarious.

[Maayan]

Err, its bad to have a discussion about feelings before you know if there are any. Once your in a relationship, fine.

Bull. It's pointless to ask about feelings if neither party has shown an interest in the other. He's aware of his own feelings. Either he's not interested and he merely wants to satisfy his own curiosity, at which point a conversation will suffice, or he's interested and wants to know if she feels the same way, at which point I refer back to my original argument. If he's concerned with not putting her in an unpleasant situation regardless of the outcome, then a kiss is not the solution.


Here is some reading for you to help your attitude:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Honestly, the original poster doesn't strike me as the type who is capable of spontaneously acquiring mad movez.

[JohnDoe]

Well, every hot babe I've ever been with (even the introverts) tells me stories about all the wimps that have tried to date her. You should hear how they make fun of these guys (you probably have). It is just freaking hilarious.

Yeah I have heard those stories from my friends. I know *exactly* what you are talking about.





JohnDoe added to this post, 1 minutes and 51 seconds later...


Honestly, the original poster doesn't strike me as the type who is capable of spontaneously acquiring mad movez.

That website pretty much has nothing to do with spontaneously developing mad movez. Thats why it gets recommended. Its about learning to be comfortable with yourself, which is a long term process. Hence it gets my recommendation. Way to fail to read the website.

[Maayan]

That website pretty much has nothing to do with spontaneously developing mad movez. Thats why it gets recommended. Its about learning to be comfortable with yourself, which is a long term process. Hence it gets my recommendation. Way to fail to read the website.

The original poster didn't ask how to change his behavior over the long term so that he'd come off as a completely different person. He asked for immediate closure in a situation with a friend. That web site is irrelevant to his present conundrum. (Perhaps I didn't make that clear. My bad.)

Way to resort to insults.

[alphawolf]

A man succeeds or fails. A coward never makes the attempt.

For you guys who would beat someone half to death with a pipe for $100m: why in the hell are you scared of a woman?

[wotsamattaU]

I can tell you what does not go over well: making a move before testing personal space boundaries.

Once while sitting in the library with a good male friend he surprised me by grabbing my ass. :stunned:

Startled the hell out of me. His reply: 'well I had to do something!'

Don't do that.

[Jinxu]

Read any book on negotiation, psychology, or sociology. People don't like conflict. Asking someone straight out if they like you is one of the most stressful things you can do. It also is almost like conflict, in that there is a great potential to get hurt.

Giving birth is also very stressful and risky. Should a woman not get pregnant because she doesn't want to deal with that. If the O.P. wants something to happen, he's gonna have to risk it.





Jinxu added to this post, 3 minutes and 45 seconds later...


I smile at everyone. Thats not very useful.

I've got a comment on this statement, but I'm not gonna tell. You'll thank me. :lipsrsealed:

[Maayan]

alphawolf:

1. Refer back to previous argument that a display of courage is not contingent on kissing.
2. A respectful person considers the reality of the situation and the consequences of his actions with regards to others. If he were Fabio De Sade, he'd be better at playing the game and we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. The reality is that he's a shy guy and that it's dubious that he'll be able to successfully feign an overnight transformation.

[alphawolf]

I can tell you, if somebody grabbed my ass in a library, it would startle the hell out of me, too. A library is just not the place to be grab-assing around ;-)

Once I was at a party in a bedroom with about 20 people there (when I was about 22 years old). The night was still young and I had not really been talking with any women yet. Somebody flipped off the lights and all the sudden I started getting a blowjob. Startled the hell out of me, too, but she said "just relax". Well, she was still going at it when somebody flipped the lights back on. People were laughing at us, and I think I turned red as a beet! Ended up having sex with her 5 times before morning...

[Maayan]

Once I was at a party in a bedroom with about 20 people there (when I was about 22 years old). The night was still young and I had not really been talking with any women yet. Somebody flipped off the lights and all the sudden I started getting a blowjob. Startled the hell out of me, too, but she said "just relax". Well, she was still going at it when somebody flipped the lights back on. People were laughing at us, and I think I turned red as a beet! Ended up having sex with her 5 times before morning...

She's a girl coming after a guy. That's an entirely different situation. :)

[Jinxu]

I can tell you, if somebody grabbed my ass in a library, it would startle the hell out of me, too. A library is just not the place to be grab-assing around ;-)

Once I was at a party in a bedroom with about 20 people there (when I was about 22 years old). The night was still young and I had not really been talking with any women yet. Somebody flipped off the lights and all the sudden I started getting a blowjob. Startled the hell out of me, too, but she said "just relax". Well, she was still going at it when somebody flipped the lights back on. People were laughing at us, and I think I turned red as a beet! Ended up having sex with her 5 times before morning...

The world will be a better place if more women see this as advice! hint hint. ;D





Jinxu added to this post, 3 minutes and 4 seconds later...

I've tried to stay out of relationship discussion like this. I feel like I got suckered into one here. However, I have to say it is fun to play an adviser. It's like holding the O.P.'s life in the palm of your hand.

[alphawolf]

The world will be a better place if more women see this as advice! hint hint. ;D

It damned sure would. No worries about flirting, misinterpreting body language signals, asking "what is your name?", wondering "does she like me?", etc.

Set your sights on what you want, and just go and take it.

[wotsamattaU]

I'm curious. There's this girl, she seems very xNFx to me (I can't figure out whether she's I or E, or if she's J or P) and we're good friends, so I'm curious as to what the signs are that she wants to be more than friends with me.

I think it is important to at least try and determine the I/E factor here. It will affect the accuracy of the advice here.

ETA: I suggested talking instead of kissing because it takes into account her feelings, regardless of what they may be.

As an INF I do not want to discuss my feelings prior to a relationship being established. It puts you on the spot for something you may be quite unprepared for.

ok, sorry, but i'm gonna disagree with the Is... if this girl is an E, then their interpretations aren't quite right, i'm afraid...

as a younger enfp, i would do a lot of that stuff & not mean anything much by it... the biggest red-flag is her mentioning that her behaviour is often misinterpreted as leading men on... i have *frequently* used this one to try to subtly tell a guy not to take things the wrong way...

This is why I think it is important to determine the I/E factor.

although i also used it recently to tell a guy that i was totally into him, because with him i wanted him to be led on...

That is such confusing (contradictory) behavior. Do you do anything which distinguishes one from the other - 'just friends' vs. 'wants more than just friends'?


your safest route is to bring the conversation back round to the: "so, you were talking about how you often give guys the wrong impression...???" and let her take it from there... i would absolutely take that and run with it, to set out what i wanted you to understand about how i was interacting with you...

What would you say? This is interesting. I'm glad you brought your opinions to the thread, because this is a clear example of the difference in thought processes/behavior between INF's and ENF's. I was hoping some of the E's would join the discussion.

When a male has been confused regarding me, it was because I can be very friendly and outgoing if I feel comfortable with you. I never led them on, it was a matter of their hoping for more. There is a difference.

If someone observed how I behave with random others vs how I behave with them, it would be very clear I am an introvert. The outgoing persona emerges when I feel at home or my spirits are unusually high.

It's been stated fairly often on the MBTI boards by INFP's, ENFP's and INTJ's that they are able to flirt with others but not with the one's they like. Oddly enough, the one's they like are all but ignored.

I have read this to be particularly true of those possessing introverted feeling. You become over stimulated by the object of your affections and retreat to hide your vulnerability.

She sounds very much like an enfp, and I'd have to agree with Seoa on this one.

If you are unfamiliar with extroverted NF types, this behavior in an romantically uninterested friend is not uncommon, and can be very confusing to INxJ types. Believe me, I Know! Another thing to keep in mind is that enfps are naturally drawn to introverted types, along with the thrill of trying to figure you out. You might want to do a little research on the enfp profile, if you haven't already done so.

Seoa's advice about turning the conversation around and asking about her thoughts on giving guys the wrong impression is an excellent idea.

I think that is very good advice and may aid you in typing her more accurately.

Coming from my perspective as a woman... I would want you to initiate closeness first, then maybe YOU taking my hand and holding it, then move on from there. But at some point you will have to ask her about your relationship.... clarify things.

I agree with this - if she is an INF judge her by how she responds to your nearness and then go from there.

Derailing this thread with a semi-related question:

What's the difference between an ENFx and an ESFx with regards to day-to-day body language? I don't consider myself to be an NF in this particular respect, because the moment that I have a crush on someone, I'll keep on doing the same thing and hope that he'll magically notice that something's changed.

I mentioned the possibility of ENF because the behavior described in the OP has widely been affirmed by ENF's on this board elsewhere. It is good you brought up that it can be true of the ESF as well.

Just to confirm the above - you do not change anything in your behavior between 'just friends' and wishing for more?

My archetypal ENFP friend, on the other hand, knows exactly how to play the character of the silly girl who has a big crush and who isn't afraid to show it. She's the one who instructed me to switch gears and send fake-drunken messages to my crush:

This made me wonder if your behavior isn't directly influenced by your ENF friend.

Clarify things after you guys kiss, but obviously don't kiss her if you don't have mostly green lights.

Very sound advice, particularly if the woman is an INF.

In general, testing physical boundaries (even just by your nearness - will she tolerate you in her personal space?) is a very good indicator of how close they want to get to you.

[Samoan Corleone]

Well, I'd like to thank everyone for their contribution so far. To add to what has already been discussed:

- Sometimes she seems E, other times she's I. I don't know if she's E around me and I around other people because I rarely see her with other people.
- I'm not exactly "scared" of her, if she said she didn't want to be more than friends I'd have closure and be able to move on.
- This one night (last January) we were on MSN and she was like "I want to tell you something, but..."
I was like "but, what? What it is you wanna tell me?"
"Oh, don't worry lol I'm a bit drunk."
"Nah, just tell me lol."
"No."
"C'mon."
"No."
"C'mon."
and it went on like that, but I finally gave up. The next time we meet in person will be when I ask her what it is.
- I'm turning 19 soon and I've never asked out a girl in my life. Every girlfriend I've ever had has asked me. Well, what I mean is that they ask me to the first date, and then I'll ask them to the second, and so on.
- It's just the two of us when we have dinner or go to the movies, or something, but there are usually other people eveytime we go clubbing.
- I can't just kiss her out of the blue. We know each other very well, and although we get touchy and flirty at times if I was to put my lips anywhere near hers that would startle her because I've never done anything like that with her before.
- In the early stages of our, how-you-say, "relationship" it was her who did most of the pursuing, like, following me around, asking where I was going, if I wanted to hang out, and stuff.
- She mentioned that she had a boyfriend before, but that was after she'd chased me around and stuff. She also asked if I was single, but it's been like a whole year since then and I haven't heard anything about the guy since.

Also, I've confided in another friend who's an ENF girl. She helps with my girl problems and I help her with guy problems. Anyway, she said that, the way we are with each other, it could be more than just an ordinary teenage crush. She said that we could possibly love each other, and not know it. The girl I'm unsure about, has often called me a dork and such, in a fun way, but has never outright told me that she loves me. The J in me is dying for some closure...





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 3 minutes and 38 seconds later...

When a male has been confused regarding me, it was because I can be very friendly and outgoing if I feel comfortable with you. I never led them on, it was a matter of their hoping for more. There is a difference.

If someone observed how I behave with random others vs how I behave with them, it would be very clear I am an introvert. The outgoing persona emerges when I feel at home or my spirits are unusually high.


In regards to you personally, when you feel comfortable with a guy, does that mean that you like him?

[wotsamattaU]

Is she energized by going out socializing? Or does she require a considerable amount of solitude to recharge? You could easily work that into a conversation, by comparing your needs vs. others.

What you have shared with us thus far sounds like an ENFP description to me.


In regards to you personally, when you feel comfortable with a guy, does that mean that you like him?

It definitely means I like him on some level. It could very well be platonic.

The way to tell with me is by my nervousness. If I become flustered in your presence, my speech slows (due to hearing myself speaking all of a sudden) I may drop things - those are clear indicators of romantic wotsamattU behavior. :loveeyes:

There will be micro focusing on everything concerning you (my sensory function goes into overdrive).

You will hear me bring up little personal things you mentioned previously to show I pay attention to you, that you matter to me.

I will try to get you to laugh to loosen you up - it eases the tension and allows for a freely flowing conversation.

Also - I do not touch the one I am really attracted to. You won't see me talking and touching you. This is because I am so attracted it would be like a jolt of electricity coursing through me upon tactile connection with you.

Lastly, I am rarely really attracted to anyone. So when it does happen, I experience it very intensely.

[alphawolf]

- I can't just kiss her out of the blue. We know each other very well, and although we get touchy and flirty at times if I was to put my lips anywhere near hers that would startle her because I've never done anything like that with her before.

You won't startle her. When you look into her eyes and smile, reach up and run both hands through her hair, she will know what is coming.

Use the force, Luke.

[Samoan Corleone]

Is she energized by going out socializing? Or does she require a considerable amount of solitude to recharge? You could easily work that into a conversation, by comparing your needs vs. others.

What you have shared with us thus far sounds like an ENFP description to me.

Well, when I'm with people I like I could socialise for hours and not need the introvert alone time. Overall, I'd say she's an E, but with some I traits, like pausing for a while before she replies to a question to carefully consider her answer.





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 1 minutes and 18 seconds later...

You won't startle her. When you look into her eyes and smile, reach up and run both hands through her hair, she will know what is coming.

Use the force, Luke.

Ok, I'll give it a shot. It all depends on the mood, really.

[alphawolf]

Ok, I'll give it a shot. It all depends on the mood, really.

If you think about it for too many days, you will get anxiety or something, be nervous, and give off bad vibes.

Just get happy first, then do it.

[SimplyOtter]

I say she has ALL the signs.

But you didn't even tell US if you're interested, what can she possibly do more than that? :)

[Samoan Corleone]

I say she has ALL the signs.

But you didn't even tell US if you're interested, what can she possibly do more than that? :)

If you read between the lines I think you'll be able to figure out what my feelings towards her are... ;)

[Maayan]

I mentioned the possibility of ENF because the behavior described in the OP has widely been affirmed by ENF's on this board elsewhere. It is good you brought up that it can be true of the ESF as well.

Just to confirm the above - you do not change anything in your behavior between 'just friends' and wishing for more?


Correct. Eventually, I'll get frustrated and "switch tactics," which to me means getting us both real-drunk. :)


This made me wonder if your behavior isn't directly influenced by your ENF friend.


I don't quite understand what you're asking. In terms of displaying the character traits in the OP's post? If so, not at all. I was like this long before we met.

[Samoan Corleone]

…if she is an INF judge her by how she responds to your nearness and then go from there.
In general, testing physical boundaries (even just by your nearness - will she tolerate you in her personal space?) is a very good indicator of how close they want to get to you.

Well, she's very tolerant of me in her personal space (she started invading mine first). I still don't know if that's because she's keen, or if it's just a platonic comfort thing.

[JohnDoe]

You have a girl who likes to get in your personal space, likes you in hers, likes to touch you, thinks your cute, and you talk for hours. You routinely go on datelike things. What would possibly give you the idea that kissing her isn't the exact right thing to do here? Really? I bet you hide your feelings the same way with her as you are here, and this is why she hasn't outright kissed you yet. Your already in a relationship with this girl, you two just haven't realized it yet. Kiss her. Anyone telling you to do anything but this at this point is a god damn idiot. Your friend is telling you that you two could be in love and you wouldn't even know it... Every time I have told a friend something like that it meant that I knew something they didn't. Trust your friend. Let me restate this. Your friend is saying that this is quite possibly more then a crush. You need to trust your friend. Especially if she knows the person in question.

It's just the two of us when we have dinner or go to the movies, or something, but there are usually other people eveytime we go clubbing.
Normal people call dinner and movies a date. You've already been on dates. You have clearance to kiss her at an appropriate time.





JohnDoe added to this post, 8 minutes and 41 seconds later...


I've got a comment on this statement, but I'm not gonna tell. You'll thank me. :lipsrsealed:

Whats the comment? I mean, I'm usually in a happy mood. Would you prefer I scowl at people?

[seoa]

I wanted to point out here that you wrote a bunch about how saying that if she says that she is often misinterpreted as leading guys on, it means shes not interested, and then go on to say that you used it to say you were interested...
yes i know... i was intending to say that the "majority" interpretation (if she's an E) is not encouraging... when i used it to say i was interested, i was explicitly clear... he was left in no doubt...

but as i also said in the same post - while there are steps he can take to try & clarify the situation to build confidence, they are dependent on whether she's an E or an I, and on so many other things besides, so he will have to ask (or kiss, same difference) to be sure...

and to the OP: don't get too hung up on personality types... as an enfp, i've variously given the wrong impression when i was not interested... i've "hidden" from guys that i was interested in... i have confidently flirted & been open to guys, letting them know i would say 'yes' if they asked (but they had to ask!)... depends on where my head is at, and what else is going on in my life...

you won't know till you do something... but (assuming she's interested) she's clearly gone as far as she is willing to go, it is up to you to make some kind of effort in return now... altho whether you do or not depends on how much you want to find out, and if you're willing to risk the possibility she's not that into you...

You have a girl who likes to get in your personal space, likes you in hers, likes to touch you, thinks your cute, and you talk for hours. You routinely go on datelike things. What would possibly give you the idea that kissing her isn't the exact right thing to do here?
i agree...

if you need a build up (confidence) then try the conversation starter i suggested earlier... and the thing about first kisses is that they don't have to be fast... in fact, slow (with anticipation) is often better... have you seen that will smith film, hitch...? the 90:10 thing...? go for it in that way - i.e. show clear intent, but hesitate before closing the deal (in a "i'm confident enough to allow a bit of anticipation here" way, not in a "i'm losing my nerve" way...)

and that way, if you have mis-read it, you can back off before planting the actual kiss... less unfair on her (if she didn't want it) and a bit more pride-restoring for you...





seoa added to this post, 2 minutes and 18 seconds later...

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. - altho i'm not sure about "as long as it takes for her to come the 10%..." - if after a few seconds she hasn't pulled away (especially with eye contact) then feel free to close...!

[wotsamattaU]

Correct. Eventually, I'll get frustrated and "switch tactics," which to me means getting us both real-drunk. :)

I'm glad you explained what 'switch tactics' would be, because that would have been my next question. hehe



I don't quite understand what you're asking. In terms of displaying the character traits in the OP's post? If so, not at all. I was like this long before we met.

Ah, yes that is what I meant - thank you.

Well, she's very tolerant of me in her personal space (she started invading mine first). I still don't know if that's because she's keen, or if it's just a platonic comfort thing.

Here's a good how to (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) for any situation.

Look, this is likely what would happen if she sees you as 'just friends', taken from the above site:



Imagine the following: there is a particular individual who has been crushing on you for some time now, but from your perspective, the chemistry just isn’t there. Come the holiday season, he or she may decide that the fabled powers of Mistletoe are just what the doctor ordered, and approach you, mystical sprig in hand. What do you do?

Just present him or her with a cheek to kiss. Place your hands on the front of their shoulders. This puts you in a good position to better control the action, and gently push them away if necessary. If they try to dodge the cheek and go for the lips instead, just turn your head so that they hit the other cheek instead, and gently push them away, saying something like, “I’m so glad that we’re friends.”


Is that your worse case scenario?

[Jinxu]

I don't quite understand what you're asking. In terms of displaying the character traits in the OP's post? If so, not at all. I was like this long before we met.
I get the feeling that you don't like me. Is there a reason why?





Jinxu added to this post, 1 minutes and 5 seconds later...


Whats the comment? I mean, I'm usually in a happy mood. Would you prefer I scowl at people?
Maybe you have a bad smile that scares people. Ever thought about that. Plus, some guys that smiles all the time can appear like douches.

[JohnDoe]

Maybe you have a bad smile that scares people. Ever thought about that. Plus, some guys that smiles all the time can appear like douches.

What the hell? Whats with the random personal attacks? I mean, are you honestly telling me that its good to sulk around like an idiot? What do you propose I do, purposely try to keep any emotion off my face?
Edit: I tend to smile when I'm happy. I'm often happy for days at a time. Thus I smile alot. I mean, its not like I'm smiling on purpose, its quite genuine.
Edit: To put it differently, it just happens. When I'm happy, I'm going to be smiling if I want to or not.

[wotsamattaU]

Jinxu - Maayan's quote you referenced was in answer to a question of mine.

re: smiling to show you like a person -

I don't think INTJ's realize that to smile at a person is not necessarily going to indicate your interest in them. Since the majority of the population readily displays a friendly smile with ease, most will not pick up that for you it is an indication of anything else.

Now I had a very nice exchange with a male INTJ once that went like this:

He walks in, I smiled at him. He immediately returned it.

This made my smile widen into a full one, showing teeth. He immediately followed suit giving me a very broad smile - the biggest a person can give.

We were also smiling from the eyes; these were not forced. This was an exchange which proved to both of us of our regard for one another.

When you have a flow like that, it is unmistakable if you know how to read body language. A simple smile however (though wonderful) is often not taken as anything more than a casual pleasantry.

[Jinxu]

What the hell? Whats with the random personal attacks? I mean, are you honestly telling me that its good to sulk around like an idiot? What do you propose I do, purposely try to keep any emotion off my face?
Edit: I tend to smile when I'm happy. I'm often happy for days at a time. Thus I smile alot. I mean, its not like I'm smiling on purpose, its quite genuine.
Edit: To put it differently, it just happens. When I'm happy, I'm going to be smiling if I want to or not.
It's not an attack. It's input. And you asked for it remember and I'd warned you. It's something for you to think about.



Here's a nice smile:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[JohnDoe]

Yeah but I mean why would you even correlate I smile with -- I have a horrible smile and I'm a douche?

[wotsamattaU]

That picture with the near-microscopic smile looks more appropriate to someone who just passed gas in a bathtub and found it amusing.
heh heh

Those glassy eyes though - now THAT is a clear indicator of romantic interest. :lovestruck:

I would think only people who are ingenuine and smiling like an idiot would come off as anything negative.

[stephante]

The one tip I've picked up on over the years about an NF is:

If she drops her panties, she wants to be more than just friends. It's guaranteed.

PARDON??

I'm sorry, that's a bit of a stretch. Don't take a lack of panties dropping means she's not into you.

neah, I wouldn't say so. If you have known her for a year and nothing has happened then she sees you only as bro. The thing is that as guys we are programmed to be over optimistic at reading the signs. If you are unsure, then you are more than likely wrong. If a girl is interested they are totally blatant about it.

Hmmmm... I'm never blatant until I have a pretty good idea that there is a good possibility that my feelings will be returned, or am positive that I'd rather have my hopes crushed than not know anymore.



You've already gotten a lot of good advice (not from the two I quoted :)).

However, as an XNFP, I can say that if this girl is at all similar to me, she will be very kind with your feelings regardless of if she is interested in you or not. Also, I think my current boyfriend (an INTJ) is the only person I've ever been interested in who ever accurately picked up on my flirting tactics (which include more subtle touches and quipping than panty-dropping).

JohnDoe and wotsamattaU have hit the proverbial nail on the head. :)

[alphawolf]

Well, she's very tolerant of me in her personal space (she started invading mine first). I still don't know if that's because she's keen, or if it's just a platonic comfort thing.


Men who are good friends with each don't invade each other's personal space. At least not for more than a second or two. Or maybe if they are gay, I don't know...

Anyway, she is not "invading" your personal space. She is a beautiful young woman who is coming close to you because she likes you and she is attracted to you. She is telling you that she is comfortable with you. She is waiting for you to be a man (inside your own head) and make the first move, to show her the way, to show her how good that first kiss feels.

When a woman is interested, she'll create windows of opportunity for you which can almost always be perceived in two different ways in case you don't make a move. Women don't like to be rejected. It's up to you to do your job as a man and take the risk and lead the situation where you want it to go. A man can not be a man when he lives with fear of rejection. You have to take the risks, make the first moves, hold the doors, pay the bills, make sure your woman is satisfied first, etc. And you will never learn to understand why they behave the way they do. That's just the way it is.

Men are the root source of energy, security, and love for the women and children around them - not the takers. Men learn to be men and build their source energy from spending time with their own men friends and brothers, not from hanging out with women friends. That's why it's so important to have same-sex friends and not just hang out with the opposite sex all the time - even if you have a girlfriend.

Order in the court.

[curiousjane]

Hmmm. I've been reading this with interest, but have mostly been at work or on a lunch break when doing so and have not had the opportunity to respond at length.

To loosely quote Inigo Montoya, "Let me explain—no, there is too much—let me sum up."

From an INFP Perspective:

- Light touching = good
- Smiles = good
- Talking for long amounts of time = good
- Doing things one on one = good

For me, personally, the touch thing is the clincher. Granted, I'll playfully smack a guy friend I'm comfortable with, but I won't touch his arm and hold on ever-so-slightly. I won't reach up and brush something off his shoulder. I definitely won't touch his hair or his face or his hands. Hands are really intimate to me.

If nothing else, you have the green light for trying to ask for some clarification. I would take the advice of those who say ask her what's going on AND I would take them up on the "kiss her already!" advice. If you just need one final go-ahead ... do what my guy did. Lean in, look into her eyes gently, speak softly, and tell her you want to kiss her and and make it a bit of a question so she can respond. HINT: I kissed him back. ;)

The only caveat I have to this is sometimes when I'm super comfortable with a guy friend I can be silly and affectionate (which I suppose can be translated as flirty) but it means nothing because I am confident he knows it means nothing. But again ... I would never, ever do anything I considered truly intimate (emotionally) or romantic.

You'll never get closure and be able to make a decision whether or not to pursue/allow this girl to pursue you unless you make some kind of proactive move.

Good luck!

[intjdude]

PARDON??

I'm sorry, that's a bit of a stretch. Don't take a lack of panties dropping means she's not into you.



Dude, just ask her to drop her panties and see if she does it. It's a win-win situation. Trust me! ;D

[Samoan Corleone]

Once again, thank you all for your contribution. I should really be on here more frequently.


You have a girl who likes to get in your personal space, likes you in hers, likes to touch you, thinks your cute, and you talk for hours. You routinely go on datelike things. What would possibly give you the idea that kissing her isn't the exact right thing to do here? Really? I bet you hide your feelings the same way with her as you are here, and this is why she hasn't outright kissed you yet. Your already in a relationship with this girl, you two just haven't realized it yet. Kiss her. Anyone telling you to do anything but this at this point is a god damn idiot. Your friend is telling you that you two could be in love and you wouldn't even know it... Every time I have told a friend something like that it meant that I knew something they didn't. Trust your friend. Let me restate this. Your friend is saying that this is quite possibly more then a crush. You need to trust your friend. Especially if she knows the person in question.


Normal people call dinner and movies a date. You've already been on dates. You have clearance to kiss her at an appropriate time.


I went to school with this girl and she had a really good guy friend named Joel from another school. They basically did everything a normal teen couple would do except kiss. She had a boyfriend he hardly ever heard about, all we did hear from her was what her and Joel did in the weekend. However, I bet if Joel tried to kiss her things would get awkward.

Don't worry, though. I'll give things a shot next time we meet up (we live like two hours away from each other).



and to the OP: don't get too hung up on personality types... as an enfp, i've variously given the wrong impression when i was not interested... i've "hidden" from guys that i was interested in... i have confidently flirted & been open to guys, letting them know i would say 'yes' if they asked (but they had to ask!)... depends on where my head is at, and what else is going on in my life...

you won't know till you do something... but (assuming she's interested) she's clearly gone as far as she is willing to go, it is up to you to make some kind of effort in return now... altho whether you do or not depends on how much you want to find out, and if you're willing to risk the possibility she's not that into you...


Well you see, what if she's flirting with me with no intention of taking things further? We're meeting up soon, and if it turns out she only ever wanted to be friends then I get to tell her that she led me on and I also get to call her a bunch of names, right? It should be fun. Yes, I've seen Hitch, but I'm no Albert. :laugh:


Here's a good how to (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) for any situation.

Look, this is likely what would happen if she sees you as 'just friends', taken from the above site:



Imagine the following: there is a particular individual who has been crushing on you for some time now, but from your perspective, the chemistry just isn’t there. Come the holiday season, he or she may decide that the fabled powers of Mistletoe are just what the doctor ordered, and approach you, mystical sprig in hand. What do you do?

Just present him or her with a cheek to kiss. Place your hands on the front of their shoulders. This puts you in a good position to better control the action, and gently push them away if necessary. If they try to dodge the cheek and go for the lips instead, just turn your head so that they hit the other cheek instead, and gently push them away, saying something like, “I’m so glad that we’re friends.”


Is that your worse case scenario?

Well, if she does that at least I'll have the closure I need to pursue other girls. If I knew I would've felt this way the first time we met I would've moved in on her earlier.


However, as an XNFP, I can say that if this girl is at all similar to me, she will be very kind with your feelings regardless of if she is interested in you or not. Also, I think my current boyfriend (an INTJ) is the only person I've ever been interested in who ever accurately picked up on my flirting tactics (which include more subtle touches and quipping than panty-dropping).

JohnDoe and wotsamattaU have hit the proverbial nail on the head. :)

That's just the thing though. Maybe she will be able to be kind with my feelings regardless of how she feels, but I won't. Once everything is out in the open I won't be albe to just comfortably carry on being her best guy friend if my delicate feeling aren't returned. There's gonna be tension and awkwardness there, and I'll probably severe contact with her and move on with my life. That would be a real cold move, but, hey, I'm a real cold guy.


Men who are good friends with each don't invade each other's personal space. At least not for more than a second or two. Or maybe if they are gay, I don't know...

Anyway, she is not "invading" your personal space. She is a beautiful young woman who is coming close to you because she likes you and she is attracted to you. She is telling you that she is comfortable with you. She is waiting for you to be a man (inside your own head) and make the first move, to show her the way, to show her how good that first kiss feels.

When a woman is interested, she'll create windows of opportunity for you which can almost always be perceived in two different ways in case you don't make a move. Women don't like to be rejected. It's up to you to do your job as a man and take the risk and lead the situation where you want it to go. A man can not be a man when he lives with fear of rejection. You have to take the risks, make the first moves, hold the doors, pay the bills, make sure your woman is satisfied first, etc. And you will never learn to understand why they behave the way they do. That's just the way it is.

Men are the root source of energy, security, and love for the women and children around them - not the takers. Men learn to be men and build their source energy from spending time with their own men friends and brothers, not from hanging out with women friends. That's why it's so important to have same-sex friends and not just hang out with the opposite sex all the time - even if you have a girlfriend.

Order in the court.

As I mentioned before, every girlfriend I've ever had did the initial pursuing. If I liked them I'd pursue back. Don't worry, I'll take the lead role next time the two of us meet. I also don't fear rejection, just lack of closure and losing a good friend if all turns to shit. Don't worry, when the time comes, I'll know my cue. Wish me luck, everyone...


From an INFP Perspective:

- Light touching = good
- Smiles = good
- Talking for long amounts of time = good
- Doing things one on one = good

For me, personally, the touch thing is the clincher. Granted, I'll playfully smack a guy friend I'm comfortable with, but I won't touch his arm and hold on ever-so-slightly. I won't reach up and brush something off his shoulder. I definitely won't touch his hair or his face or his hands. Hands are really intimate to me.

If nothing else, you have the green light for trying to ask for some clarification. I would take the advice of those who say ask her what's going on AND I would take them up on the "kiss her already!" advice. If you just need one final go-ahead ... do what my guy did. Lean in, look into her eyes gently, speak softly, and tell her you want to kiss her and and make it a bit of a question so she can respond. HINT: I kissed him back. ;)

The only caveat I have to this is sometimes when I'm super comfortable with a guy friend I can be silly and affectionate (which I suppose can be translated as flirty) but it means nothing because I am confident he knows it means nothing. But again ... I would never, ever do anything I considered truly intimate (emotionally) or romantic.

You'll never get closure and be able to make a decision whether or not to pursue/allow this girl to pursue you unless you make some kind of proactive move.

Good luck!

Thank you. That's helped make the line between playful, meaningless, potentially-leading-on flirting, and "I'm serious about becoming more than just friends" flirting a little less blury.


Dude, just ask her to drop her panties and see if she does it. It's a win-win situation. Trust me! ;D

She's not that kinda girl. She's got morals, you know? As do I. :laugh:





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 10 minutes and 36 seconds later...

Also, as for the ESF friend I mentioned earlier, she does not personally know the girl in quesion, just all of the stuff I tell her.

[JohnDoe]

I went to school with this girl and she had a really good guy friend named Joel from another school. They basically did everything a normal teen couple would do except kiss. She had a boyfriend he hardly ever heard about, all we did hear from her was what her and Joel did in the weekend. However, I bet if Joel tried to kiss her things would get awkward.

Don't worry, though. I'll give things a shot next time we meet up (we live like two hours away from each other).

If Joel was interested in her, he should have asked her out. Maybe she was waiting to dump the boyfriend until he expressed interest? This isn't exactly uncommon.


Well, if she does that at least I'll have the closure I need to pursue other girls. If I knew I would've felt this way the first time we met I would've moved in on her earlier.
You arn't the first person to fall for someone who you wern't initially interested in

That's just the thing though. Maybe she will be able to be kind with my feelings regardless of how she feels, but I won't. Once everything is out in the open I won't be albe to just comfortably carry on being her best guy friend if my delicate feeling aren't returned. There's gonna be tension and awkwardness there, and I'll probably severe contact with her and move on with my life. That would be a real cold move, but, hey, I'm a real cold guy.
As I mentioned before, every girlfriend I've ever had did the initial pursuing. If I liked them I'd pursue back. Don't worry, I'll take the lead role next time the two of us meet. I also don't fear rejection, just lack of closure and losing a good friend if all turns to shit. Don't worry, when the time comes, I'll know my cue. Wish me luck, everyone...
Just remember you have a right to be happy. This means pursuing reasonable opportunities. People who treat you like a boyfriend don't have a reasonable expectation for you not to be interested in them.

Just remember, people who get the big rewards are the people who take the big risks.

[LaoTzu]

Whatever happened to just bluntly asking?... :/

so odd...


I can't live with 'what ifs' and 'maybes'... I just put it all out there.
They're just fucking words .... just emotions...
Hit the issue straight on... life is short, finding someone you are willing to talk to for hours... rare...

you should know the right words, and the way to phrase them...

[MacGuffin]

A really good sign is when you find your penis in her vagina.

[Samoan Corleone]

Well, I'm going to be taking the big risk next time I see her, which may very well be on Valentine's Day. Don't worry people, I'll have my answer by then. I know a lot of you have been watching this thing like a soap opera, on Valentine's Day is the season finale.





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 0 minutes and 44 seconds later...

A really good sign is when you find your penis in her vagina.

Hey, I've never thought of that. That might just be an indication...





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 0 minutes and 43 seconds later...

Whatever happened to just bluntly asking?... :/

so odd...


I can't live with 'what ifs' and 'maybes'... I just put it all out there.
They're just fucking words .... just emotions...
Hit the issue straight on... life is short, finding someone you are willing to talk to for hours... rare...

you should know the right words, and the way to phrase them...

I'm not afraid to bluntly ask, but that's a last resort.

[alphawolf]

I'm not afraid to bluntly ask, but that's a last resort.

Don't ask her if she likes you, don't ask her if you can kiss her, don't ask her if you can hold her hand, don't tell her you want to kiss her. That is asking her to do your job for you. Just show her what is coming and do it like you mean it.

She will either be really glad you did it, or she won't. End of story.

[simoncpu]

Don't ask if she likes you. You're being a wussy... so un-INTJ. It's your task to make her like you. She has already given you a couple of indicators that she likes you. By hesitating, you may have ruined your chance.

[Samoan Corleone]

Don't ask her if she likes you, don't ask her if you can kiss her, don't ask her if you can hold her hand, don't tell her you want to kiss her. That is asking her to do your job for you. Just show her what is coming and do it like you mean it.

She will either be really glad you did it, or she won't. End of story.

Well, of course man, I'm taking everything into account, but it's hard to make a move when I don't see her until next week. :laugh:


Don't ask if she likes you. You're being a wussy... so un-INTJ. It's your task to make her like you. She has already given you a couple of indicators that she likes you. By hesitating, you may have ruined your chance.

First of all, I'm not exactly an INTJ, I'm very borderline T/F. Second of all, I'm no "wussy," I'm just being smart. I didn't exactly "hesitate" either, I had to figure out if a relationship with her was what I wanted before doing anything.


Ugh, everyone seems to be contradicting each other. Not to worry, I know that the right thing to do will come to me when the time arrives.

[SimplyOtter]

If you read between the lines I think you'll be able to figure out what my feelings towards her are... ;)

Sure. I think I can do that. :)
But I tell you, an INF girl is not the type of woman who can confidently express her love unless she's 100% sure she's reciprocated.


I think both Alphawolf and JohnDoe got it right (great posts guys); that's exactly what a woman needs. Or at least it works really well with me. ;)

[Terian]

A really good sign is when you find your penis in her vagina.Not if she's screaming, "Help!"

[FLINTJm]

She may take "8 years" to reply to an email, but you need to consider that your mind and her mind may not work the same way.



I agree. I have an INFJ that is pretty much in lust with me, but she sometimes doesn't respond to emails at all.



I'm not sure I'd come to INTJs for romantic advice...



Ain't that the truth.

But anyway... lol.


I agree with the spirit of the "go for it" advice. In my experience, girls like guys that aren't afraid to make a move. There can be instances where a girl will like you, and that eventually will fade because she figures out you're not the the type to take a risk. Waiting forever to make a move also shows a lack of confidence which 1.) makes you look unconfident and 2.) can get her to reasess her own opinion of you and put it in line with what you're signaling to her. After all, you should know.


But with the go for it stuff, I'm not saying you have to stick your tongue out and go charging for her mouth the next time you see her. Here's something a little less dangerous for both of you. And I only say this because she seems to be comfortable touching you already. When you have some opportunity, come up behind her, and nuzzle on her neck a little. Does she expose it? (good) Turn into you? (probably good) She'll probably give you plenty of signs that it's ok or not ok or uncomfortable for her.



Don't ask her if she likes you, don't ask her if you can kiss her, don't ask her if you can hold her hand, don't tell her you want to kiss her. That is asking her to do your job for you. Just show her what is coming and do it like you mean it.

She will either be really glad you did it, or she won't. End of story.



Yeah, that too.