Age Difference and Relationships

[Sesquipedalian]

This has come up in the past on other forums and I'm interested to read what other INTJs think. What do you think about people with relatively wide age gaps who date? Do you have a strong problem with them? If so, why? Do you think morality and ethics come into play here? (...assuming one party isn't some kind of perverted manipulator. We're assuming that these people, in general, are "good people", and that sexual intimacy isn't necessarily part of the equation at this point)

Below are a few examples to consider.

At what point does it become wrong? Why? At what point is it a responsibility of one of the parties to say that despite other factors of compatibility, the generational difference is too much?

70 year old with 30 year old
60 year old with 35 year old
40 year old with 24 year old
30 year old with 21 year old
25 year old with 19 year old
23 year old with 18 year old
22 year old with 17 year old

Discuss :D

[Synamon]

At what point does it become wrong? Why? At what point is it a responsibility of one of the parties to say that despite other factors of compatibility, the generational difference is too much?


If everyone in the relationship is a consenting adult then I don't care what their ages are. Age is just a number.

[Vagrant]

Ironically, about a month ago some random woman on myspace contacted me and asked if I would consider dating an older woman. She looked somewhere in her 40s, judging by her pictures, and I'm 19.

I wouldn't say it's wrong, per se. I think it's more natural to see older people chasing younger people, simply because youth is always considered attractive. It's usually a little stranger to me though, to see a young woman chasing after an old man (who's not rich), or a young man chasing after an older woman. That strikes me as strange.

[Lycurgus]

If everyone in the relationship is a consenting adult then I don't care what their ages are. Age is just a number.I'd have to agree with what Synamon said.

And i can't define exactly when 'adulthood' starts, other than I've met 21 year olds who shouldn't be allowed out of their home without mommy dressing them, and 17 year olds who I'd trust with my life savings.

[Puffi]

The examples are too tame. What I want to know if it's OK for a 70 year-old to date a 13 year-old? or 12? 11?

Most people are never all that mature, but still they have relationships all the time. So why deny a 10 year-old that? The chances of a 10 year-old being mature enough are pretty close to 0, but for it to be moral to deny dating for this reason it would ALWAYS have to be 0.

When people imagine relationships like these they think of the older person taking advantage and abusing the younger one. What if the older person is very compassionate, loving etc..? Is that worse than an abusive, violent relationship between two adults?

Also, does it really matter if you are post-pubescent? Especially if you're not even having sex?

[Sesquipedalian]

Just a number? Age is so much more than a number! Age signifies life experience, and by extension, more knowledge and (sometimes...) more wisdom. Age reflects when one was born and what kind of an impact that generation's history has had on the individual. Furthermore, it carries with it implications that one person might die significantly earlier than the other.

Once you get down to 10, 11, 12, 13... Now you're talking about an adult influencing a child. A child is going to follow the lead and inherent authority of that adult, even if the adult isn't maligned (which I find to be impossible, frankly), which, because the child is so malleable, makes the decision FOR the child, even if the child doesn't realize it.

I'm talking more about relationships that are actually feasible and whether or not they can be healthy.

[Synamon]

The examples are too tame. What I want to know if it's OK for a 70 year-old to date a 13 year-old? or 12? 11?

Most people are never all that mature, but still they have relationships all the time. So why deny a 10 year-old that? The chances of a 10 year-old being mature enough are pretty close to 0, but for it to be moral to deny dating for this reason it would ALWAYS have to be 0.

When people imagine relationships like these they think of the older person taking advantage and abusing the younger one. What if the older person is very compassionate, loving etc..? Is that worse than an abusive, violent relationship between two adults?

Also, does it really matter if you are post-pubescent? Especially if you're not even having sex?

Are you seriously condoning relationships between adults and 10 year olds? Do you understand the difference between adult and child? Or the difference between consent and abuse?

[Puffi]

The problem here is that a 10 year-old world-class genius... will be more mature than a 20 year-old idiot. It's not only about experience, it's about what you do with that experience. A lot of people I know make a mistake in a relationship... then do it again... and again... and so on, and never realize what's happening. That's stupidity. The genius wouldn't do this, hence he's more mature. So MORALLY it would be more OK for the 10 year-old to date than for the 20 year-old. That's how morals work. They're not tied to laws and standards of society.

Are you seriously condoning relationships between adults and 10 year olds?

In theory, yes I am. In reality it will be almost impossible to find a mature enough 10 year-old (if it isn't in fact impossible, which is the debate here). And not only that, he'd also have to meet someone to be with and so on, which makes it astronomically unlikely... So you're better off just saying no to it altogether... Which is immoral and prejudiced by the way, but I never claimed I was perfect.

You can change the age 10 to 12 or 14 or anything you want. The actual number isn't important, nor are the feelings you get when you think about the ages. I'm not debating your personal experiences or feelings but whether it is immoral to date these kids.

Are there some other ideas than "maturity" that stands in the way of dating?

[tp6626]

I don't agree on your supposition that a 10 year old is mature enough for a relationship, but even so that is beside the point.

There is still a physiological and developmental difference between an adult and a child, for instance.

[Synamon]

You can change the age 10 to 12 or 14 or anything you want. The actual number isn't important, nor are the feelings you get when you think about the ages. I'm not debating your personal experiences or feelings but whether it is immoral to date these kids.



It's the "feelings you get when you think about the ages" that troubles me.

It's not just immoral, it's illegal. Society has laws to protect children from adults preying on them.

[Sinequanon]

You can change the age 10 to 12 or 14 or anything you want. The actual number isn't important, nor are the feelings you get when you think about the ages. I'm not debating your personal experiences or feelings but whether it is immoral to date these kids.
The "feelings" people have are what inform our sense of morality. You can't measure something to find out whether it is right or wrong.

Anyway, addressing the non-disturbing portion of this thread, I tried dating a woman 10 years my senior and it didn't really take. I don't know if it was her age or other factors, but it was definitely an elephant in the room.

[Sean O]

...Puffi, between your disgust-with-non-virgins thread, and your posts in this thread, you're starting to disturb me.

In any case, I think it's safe to say that you definitely can't ignore age differences when considering a relationship. At the same time, however, age is, at best, a guideline for how to evaluate people - it's far from absolute. Sure, the longer a person has been alive, the more life experience he/she has had the potential to have, and the more important lessons he/she has had the potential to learn. The key word there is potential, though. Different people have different life histories, different upbringings, and different outlooks on life, and these things can have an equally strong influence on maturity as age can. Ultimately, age is important to keep in mind, but you can't make too many assumptions based on age before getting to know the person better.

I say all of that assuming that both people in question are legal adults, of course. :cheesy:

[Vagrant]

The problem here is that a 10 year-old world-class genius... will be more mature than a 20 year-old idiot. It's not only about experience, it's about what you do with that experience.Intelligence =/= Maturity. Maturity is a kind of wisdom acquired from experience. Wisdom naturally includes use of that experience.

You can't know to avoid too much if you don't know what "too much" is.

A lot of people I know make a mistake in a relationship... then do it again... and again... and so on, and never realize what's happening. That's stupidity. The genius wouldn't do this, hence he's more mature.You're assuming the genius is an NT.

I've seen smart people make the same error over and over. I've seen "stupid" people move on. What you're claiming is that intelligent people lack emotions and hubris. Which often isn't the case.

[Autoptic]

Maturity is a kind of wisdom acquired from experience. Wisdom naturally includes use of that experience.

Maturity and wisdom are relative terms too.

[Indubitably]

I'm just going to go ahead and copy my post from the "define cradle robbing" thread...


There are indeed significant reasons to avoid pursuing a relationship, but age in and of itself is not one of them. I mean, sure, its worth thinking about, just like whether or not you like the same food, music, or sports teams is worth thinking about, but it doesn't hold a candle to serious considerations. By comparison to considerations like whether or not you can communicate on a meaningful level, whether or not you trust each other, whether or not you are attracted to each other, and whether or not you make each other happy, age is relatively insignificant.

It is almost always a bad idea to let tradition arbitrate your choice of mate for that matter. Discarding the affection of someone for whom you sincerely care, and are honestly attracted to, in order to observe an essentially meaningless ritual is at best petty, and quite possibly self destructive.

If age indirectly mitigates something more meaningful, like your degree of attraction, or your ability to communicate (not to mention your ability to actually date the person without going to jail) that is one thing. If nothing fundamentally meaningful is affected however, denying each other when you have the potential to find love, is just foolish.

[Sesquipedalian]

Okay, Puffi's view on the legitimacy of a 10 year old "dating" an adult is obviously "CUCKOO!" (to quote Jack Black haha).

There is a reason why I gave a few examples up above... I knew if I didn't then someone would ask a stupid question about children and adults and it'd digress to the point that it is where it is now, sooooo

...all that to say, lets please discuss my original post rather than Puffi's jacked up post.

[Puffi]

The "feelings" people have are what inform our sense of morality. You can't measure something to find out whether it is right or wrong.

Yes, your personal sense of morality, which you should be able to see in a larger societal context. Your personal morals mean nothing in this debate. It's just one person screaming in the wind - who cares? You could be a psycho. What matters is the context and how people's morals affect society as a whole. And not just now, but in the future.

You can't know to avoid too much if you don't know what "too much" is.

a 20 year-old can be very sheltered from experiences, and in contrast a 10 year-old can be very rich in experiences for his age, balancing the experience at least to some degree. With the 10 year-old's superior intellect he would not only balance the scale but turn out to be much more mature.

You're assuming the genius is an NT.

I was talking about a hypothetical genius. He should have all the best personality traits that would help him be more mature.

I've seen smart people make the same error over and over. I've seen "stupid" people move on. What you're claiming is that intelligent people lack emotions and hubris. Which often isn't the case.

This is true, i concede that. I was talking about intelligence as the ability to spot these repeating trends for the sake of this thread.

Yup I did steal this thread, didn't I... I put it on a more theoretical level because I don't enjoy these "eww that's weird but I can't explain why" threads, which is what the alternative is. Or that people just quietly give their opinions which are all the same, which I find boring... Anyhuu, sorry about the jack. I'll leave this alone now.

[Sesquipedalian]

If you want to make a thread discussing the merits of pedophilia then go make your own but QUIT HIJACKING MINE!!!

[BostonIan]

I don't think I'd ever court outside of the (16-25) window, no matter how old I get.

When you're picking a wife, they get older later, and it's just a better buy to start younger. Practically, there are more fertile years ahead, more time for children, more sensible spacing between children. And, not to cross threads, but that's another draw of youth, for some of us. For a marriage relationship, to me, it only gets icky when the men are no longer sexually attractive.

If people are pursuing women for a non-permanent relationship, consent and age matters a great deal more. Even a few years is an unfair difference in life experience that can be exploited. The older men who pursue teenagers for non-permanent sexual relationships, well, they should be shot. Something like a 40 male/25 female would be fine, as long as the man is still attractive. Older women, younger men, my mind can't seem to process, I wouldn't know how to form an opinion on it.

Edit to add: I'd also shoot anyone who pursued a prepubescent girl, for any relationship. Shoot first, argue later.

[HeyZeus]

After Anna Nicole Smith and her millionaire husband who played the bad spirit in Poltergeist II, I am convinced age ain't nothin' but a number when it comes to love of money.

[Sinequanon]

Yes, your personal sense of morality, which you should be able to see in a larger societal context. Your personal morals mean nothing in this debate. It's just one person screaming in the wind - who cares? You could be a psycho. What matters is the context and how people's morals affect society as a whole. And not just now, but in the future.
Your personal senses of morality are constantly negotiated between what we personally feel is right and what our dominant societies feel are right (and to a lesser degree, whatever "fringe" section of society you may ascribe to). None of these are logical designations. There is no logical reason why it used to be common practice for 30 year old men to marry 14 year old girls, but it is considered disgusting, amoral and evil now. There is no logical reason why the ancient Greeks viewed homosexual sex between men and boys to be acceptable in some way. There is only your personal taste and disgust, which is somewhat informed by the social reality you grow up in.

Secondly, of course peoples' personal morality factors in. The question is what is an acceptable age range to you. That's a question of your personal morals, an exploration of how you have negotiated our understanding of society and come to form a personal moral base.

[azelismia]

I think early 20's and late teens need to have their own bracket and above that it's all consenting adults. I remember when I was 20 -- 25 year olds were off in their own adult world. they were significantly more mature than I was. by the time I was 21 I had caught up. it is different for all people. From my own experience people in their 20's going after teenagers is not cool. most teenagers regardless of how smart or stable they seem, are still doing some significant growing mentally and don't really understand the place you're coming from at that point in life.

[Sesquipedalian]

Nice Boston :).

Hm... Perhaps it'd be correct to say that you're only comfortable if the male is attractive and find it disgusting if he looks old? I mean, I can commiserate with your view, but if he's ugly, why would that make it wrong?

Furthermore, I wonder how any woman, especially young and attractive, would want to jump into a realtionship who was 25+ before they were even born.

Sinequanon - please PM puffi for further discussion if you don't mind. :-\

Azel. Good points. I wonder... There is indeed growing up to do. What if said older person were to foster the growth of said late teenager or 20-year old within the relationship, using their maturity to overlook the road bumps of a maturing person?

[tp6626]

That's interesting (16-25). I was asked the other day what age range I would 'accept' in a girlfriend, and I the lower limit I said was 18, and the upper limit 1-2 years older than me (so 18-26).

I consider 16 still too immature because they're still involved in all the high school / teen culture, and are highly likely not to have a level head or enough experience of the real world.

Plus, I'd generally consider an 18 year old an adult, but not a 16 or 17 year old. Not sure why though. And also, there are older people who are still immature, and I'd want to avoid those where possible.

I really shouldn't judge, but more than say 10-15 years difference just seems odd to me; likely to bring up problems of one kind or another through the relationship.

[Synamon]

If you want to make a thread discussing the merits of pedophilia then go make your own but QUIT HIJACKING MINE!!!
Starting a thread does NOT give you ownership of it. It is a public forum and people can post in the thread if they choose to. If the thread gets really off topic it can be split. To bring off topic posts to the attention of the moderator of this sub forum please use the Report function.

[Sinequanon]

That's interesting (16-25). I was asked the other day what age range I would 'accept' in a girlfriend, and I the lower limit I said was 18, and the upper limit 1-2 years older than me (so 18-26).

I consider 16 still too immature because they're still involved in all the high school / teen culture, and are highly likely not to have a level head or enough experience of the real world.

Plus, I'd generally consider an 18 year old an adult, but not a 16 or 17 year old. Not sure why though. And also, there are older people who are still immature, and I'd want to avoid those where possible.

I really shouldn't judge, but more than say 10-15 years difference just seems odd to me; likely to bring up problems of one kind or another through the relationship.
As a 26 year old constantly around 18 year olds... no. Just.. no. They are quite annoying. They're much better in theory than when you're having to deal with their inane conversations and crap TV shows/music.

[Sesquipedalian]

That's interesting (16-25). I was asked the other day what age range I would 'accept' in a girlfriend, and I the lower limit I said was 18, and the upper limit 1-2 years older than me (so 18-26).

I consider 16 still too immature because they're still involved in all the high school / teen culture, and are highly likely not to have a level head or enough experience of the real world.

Plus, I'd generally consider an 18 year old an adult, but not a 16 or 17 year old. Not sure why though. And also, there are older people who are still immature, and I'd want to avoid those where possible.

I really shouldn't judge, but more than say 10-15 years difference just seems odd to me; likely to bring up problems of one kind or another through the relationship.
Yeah, I feel you on the 16/17 thing. However, 18 isn't a magic number. I'm sure there are 17 year olds that are far from the standard deviation of foresight and maturity just as there are some 40 year olds that act like they're 10.

As a 26 year old constantly around 18 year olds... no. Just.. no. They are quite annoying. They're much better in theory than when you're having to deal with their inane conversations and crap TV shows/music.
Sounds like an ESF problem, not an age problem :P

[Storm]

I've always found this is an interesting question.
One's extent of life experience (and thus age), makes a big difference on how people interact.

I've heard a formula once (more as a joke), but it sort of works up to age about 40:
Your age/2 +7 = lowest age you can date.
(Youge age -7) *2 = higest age you can date.

So, a 30 year old can date 22 year olds to 46 year olds.

In other words, the older you are, the bigger the age difference can be.

But once you reach about 15-20 years difference, no matter your age, you've reached a max. Past 20 years (maybe 25), the age difference becomes too great.

As to your inquiry Sesquipedalian, if the more mature person is guiding the younger person, that's not a relationship between equals. That's more of a mentor relationship. Two people in a relationship should be on equal footing, otherwise someone is going to end up hurt. Either the more mature person will feel like they are babysitting or the younger person will feel like they are never listened to and understood.

[BostonIan]

Hm... Perhaps it'd be correct to say that you're only comfortable if the male is attractive and find it disgusting if he looks old? I mean, I can commiserate with your view, but if he's ugly, why would that make it wrong

Well, I put a great deal of stock in physical attractiveness. I think it's a sign of good genes, health cues, fertility, maybe even morality. I also think that sex is something that should occur between attractive people. No one should ever sleep with someone they're not attracted to, it does seem wrong.

Say, in an arranged marriage, I doubt either side would complain much if they got arranged into a marriage with an attractive person. I also assume that no young woman should ever want to sleep with an unattractive old man, all other things being equal. Therefor the sexual relationship is more likely to be more about power dominance coercing a woman against her physical will.

Not an air-tight moral case, but there's something right in there.

[tp6626]

Don't get me wrong, the younger they are, the more it is a stretch. I.e. Said 18 year old would have to be extremely level-headed, intelligent, stable, and into the things I'm into.

Which is unlikely, so most unlikely to even be an issue really.

If it were to happen, I think I'd feel some paternal responsibility towards her and her development, which might not be the most appropriate form of relationship.

[Sesquipedalian]

As to your inquiry Sesquipedalian, if the more mature person is guiding the younger person, that's not a relationship between equals. That's more of a mentor relationship. Two people in a relationship should be on equal footing, otherwise someone is going to end up hurt. Either the more mature person will feel like they are babysitting or the younger person will feel like they are never listened to and understood.
Hahaha, that formula is awesome! It really seems to work for most cases :D

When I wrote about an older person fostering the growth of a younger person to make up for the age gap, I wrote that with the mindset that it would fluidly transition from somewhat of a mentorship into a full-blown relationship. What are your thoughts on that?

EDIT: On the other end of the spectrum, I do wonder if relationships like Anna Nicole Smith had and that Larry King have can be truly loving relationships. I mean, I know money and stability can be huge draws, but I do wonder how much attraction there is there. I do feel pretty horrible for Larry's kids though. I feel like he shouldn't have had kids. He might as well be their great grandfather.

[Storm]

When I wrote about an older person fostering the growth of a younger person to make up for the age gap, I wrote that with the mindset that it would fluidly transition from somewhat of a mentorship into a full-blown relationship. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, the problem I immediatly see with this idea is twofold
1. The younger person might still resent the older person since they are suppose to be equals or they might grow up and turn into someone else.
2. It would be extremely hard from thinking of another as your student to your collegue in a romantic relationship.

Transitioning from student to collegue is possible in other situations, but with the romantic relationship, you're suppose to start as equals. Not starting as equals would put a strain on things. Plus, unlike other situations, there would be no clear set time when the younger person is the student, and when they are the collegue.

[Sesquipedalian]

Well, the problem I immediatly see with this idea is twofold
1. The younger person might still resent the older person since they are suppose to be equals or they might grow up and turn into someone else.
2. It would be extremely hard from thinking of another as your student to your collegue in a romantic relationship.

Transitioning from student to collegue is possible in other situations, but with the romantic relationship, you're suppose to start as equals. Not starting as equals would put a strain on things. Plus, unlike other situations, there would be no clear set time when the younger person is the student, and when they are the collegue.
To play devils advocate... :P

1. If the younger person loved and saught the wisdom of the older person, then resentment would be a non-issue.
2. It might likewise be equally hard to transition from viewing someone as your mentor/superior to an equal, but it's not unsurmountable, is it?

Plus, is it really important that there is a clearly-defined point of transition? I mean, is that even worth thinking about if both parties are realistic, flexible, and loving?

[amberlinen]

I'd prefer someone who's within 3 years older or younger than me, but there have been exceptions.

I know a man in his 30s "dating" a 13 year old girl. He called her "my little princess', and from his loving description one can clearly see that the girl basically used him to buy her things and rebel against her family. One day he claimed that they had...consummated their relationship. He disappeared from the online community since while the girl's family and other furious people are going after him.

The man is a desperate idiot and the girl is a manipulative brat. This pattern is generally true in any old man---young woman relationship.

[Sesquipedalian]

I'd prefer someone who's within 3 years older or younger than me, but there have been exceptions.

I know a man in his 30s "dating" a 13 year old girl. He called her "my little princess', and from his loving description one can clearly see that the girl basically used him to buy her things and rebel against her family. One day he claimed that they had...consummated their relationship. He disappeared from the online community since while the girl's family and other furious people are going after him.

The man is a desperate idiot and the girl is a manipulative brat. This pattern is generally true in any old man---young woman relationship.
Well yeah, you're talking about either a pedophile or a very emotionally infantile adult here. I know that ANY relationship is possible but I'm talking more about relationships that end up being happy, healthy ones.

Interesting insight though. I wonder if the brat/manipulator aspects are true of anna nicole smith and her husband as well as larry king.

[Maayan]

It depends on the nature of the relationship. I know young models who date rich older men. The model likes dating the older man because he treats her like a princess: he takes her out to expensive restaurants, buys her nice things and acts like a gentleman. She considers it to be more fun than going out with a young man who invites her over to play video games on his flea-bitten couch because he's strapped for cash and ideas. The older man likes dating the model because she's arm candy. As long as both parties take the relationship for what it is (that is to say, a non-permanent relationship, as BostonIan put it), I don't see anything wrong with it.

I'm far less skeptical of this arrangement than one in which the older man insists that the girl is very mature for her age. I'm not saying that it never turns out to be true, but it does seem statistically improbable.

[Mina]

I'm 19, and my range is about 19-24. I definitely wouldn't date someone still in high school, even if they were only a few months younger than me (I'm in my second year of college). Honestly, I don't like older guys... I'd much rather play video games than go to a fancy restaurant, and I definitely wouldn't want to deal with the "baggage" that might go along with dating an older man (namely, kids).

The financial status of a guy doesn't really matter to me because I plan on making my OWN money. I'm very ambitious and can't wait to achieve financial independence. Taking money from someone (including a significant other) means being dependent on them, and being dependent on someone means being under their control.

[Maayan]

I'm 19, and my range is about 19-24. I definitely wouldn't date someone still in high school, even if they were only a few months younger than me (I'm in my second year of college). Honestly, I don't like older guys... I'd much rather play video games than go to a fancy restaurant, and I definitely wouldn't want to deal with the "baggage" that might go along with dating an older man (namely, kids).

The financial status of a guy doesn't really matter to me because I plan on making my OWN money. I'm very ambitious and can't wait to achieve financial independence. Taking money from someone (including a significant other) means being dependent on them, and being dependent on someone means being under their control.

You're thinking of a long-term relationship. These relationships aren't about building a life together. They're about having sex and (what these people consider to be) fun in the short term.

I don't think of them as "taking money from someone" at all. The models aren't taking advantage of the older men. There's an exchange going on: the models are giving the older men the pleasure of their company in exchange for their financial backing and the benefit of their experience. Both parties benefit from the arrangement, and both parties are willing to put something in to make it happen.

They're not depending on the older men, because they're under no delusion that the relationship is meant to last, and they have the choice to reject the offer and walk away.

[AnotherNormal]

My former landlord has a younger wife, they seem very happy together.

I don't know their ages but she must be 30+ and young enough to be his daughter.

[Sesquipedalian]

Well, what's wrong is that is that love isn't a business arrangement. They might as well be "civilized hookers"

I'm talking about loving, real, healthy relationships. ...relationships where both individuals have every intention of staying together indefinitely.

[Lycurgus]

Well, what's wrong is that is that love isn't a business arrangement. They might as well be "civilized hookers"

I'm talking about loving, real, healthy relationships. ...relationships where both individuals have every intention of staying together indefinitely.What you're talking about is only one type of loving, real, healthy relationship.

[amberlinen]

Since my last post is more on the pedophilia sidetrack I'll say a little more:

According to Plato the highest form of love is the one between two men (probably a Mentor-Protege relationship between an older and a younger man). Personally I think since the heterosexual relatiohships are more about sexual desire and power struggle, adding the inequality of age difference would only make it drift more from the ideal of an equal relationship. But of course not everybody likes equal relationships.

[tp6626]

I wonder how the Jedi handle this issue?

[Maayan]

Well, what's wrong is that is that love isn't a business arrangement. They might as well be "civilized hookers"

I'm talking about loving, real, healthy relationships. ...relationships where both individuals have every intention of staying together indefinitely.

What's unhealthy about a consensual relationship where both parties are aware of the terms of the arrangement? In any relationship, I want to know where I stand.

There's nothing "unhealthy" about short-term relationships in and of themselves. They satisfy a desire.

[tp6626]

I'd just like to add, that Plato talks bollocks.

[Sesquipedalian]

What's unhealthy about a consensual relationship where both parties are aware of the terms of the arrangement? There's nothing "unhealthy" about short-term relationships in and of themselves. They satisfy a desire.
Well this is another discussion altogether. This basically just has to do with our different value systems and worldviews.
I'd just like to add, that Plato talks bollocks.
hahaha.

[SeaCzar]

Age is indeed a number. From what I have seen, that number is a dollar figure. I really do not care what ages a couple might be, as long as their happy.

I have seen a lot of people I knew from college and high school who's Dad dumped their Mom for some buxom (and vacuous) twenty something. I think that is vulgar. Then again, I never felt the need for a trophy wife.

[Sesquipedalian]

Age is indeed a number. From what I have seen, that number is a dollar figure. I really do not care what ages a couple might be, as long as their happy.

I have seen a lot of people I knew from college and high school who's Dad dumped their Mom for some buxom (and vacuous) twenty something. I think that is vulgar. Then again, I never felt the need for a trophy wife.
That's so sad. All that is for me is evidence of what I already knew: We live in a jacked-up, broken world. That doesn't make his action acceptable though!

I know a similar family. The guy dumps his wife (a kind, wonderful Christian woman) for some latina whore, dumping the rest of his family and scarring them in the process. Following his wonderful example, his daughter (probably 18?) is now pregnant with her SECOND daughter out of wedlock.

[amberlinen]

= =

I don't like Plato but that doesn't prevent me from relating to this bit in an intuitive level.

[tp6626]

= =

I don't like Plato but that doesn't prevent me from relating to this bit in an intuitive level.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult. It was more a pun on him talking of homosexuality (and expressed aptly my disagreement).

[Indubitably]

I think this thread is probably a better indication of just how significant the influence of popular culture is on our value system, and how truly disconnected F and T functions can be in a given individual, than anything else.

Obviously, a lot of this stuff is definitively subjective, but I also see a lot of people making assumptions that are built on such a shaky foundation that they are fundamentally undermined by nothing more than a little common sense and observation of self evident truths. Perhaps the most obvious is the apparent assumption that there is a linear correlation between age and mental competence. If anything it is asymptotic, and quite frankly, barring mental retardation you'd be pushing your luck to say that the curve hasn't already seriously leveled off by the time someone hits 15 years of age. Whether or not the circumstances of their life at that point have prepared them for interaction with society is obviously subjective and based on culture, but I'm sorry, there will be no more radically fundamental growth in their cognitive functionality.

Its almost as if people think being older somehow gives you psychic mind control powers. Which brings me to another assumption, that being older means you are necessarily capable of being more manipulative, and that you have greater "control" over the relationship. As INTJs I'd expect you guys to be well aware of the fact that the capacity for social interaction or manipulation and age do not go together. I've met people in their 30s that were wrapped around the little finger of their 12 year old daughter. Obviously this not always the case, but it does illustrate the fact that a relationship, romantic, platonic, filial, professional, or otherwise, is about the people involved, not the momentary circumstances of their lives. Just because you make more money than someone, and society has told you that more money and possessions means you are superior, doesn't make it so. Just because the current circumstances of your life dictate that you go to your 9:00 to 5:00 and bring home the bacon while the circumstances of your 16 year old kid's life dictate that he or she go to high school, doesn't necessarily mean you are a fundamentally superior individual or that you have absolute control over your relationship with them. You may feel entitled to be considered superior because your value system says you should be, but after a certain point people are people, they are as capable of learning, reacting, and thinking as anyone.

Experience in an environment may help to refine the capacity for survival provided by your natural potential, but it won't radically improve it. When exactly your kids are eventually forced to live under the same circumstances that you are is really not even a function of their age. A 25 year old that has been hanging out on their parent's couch since high school is going to have less real world experience than a 16 year old that had to get a job and has been working through school since he or she was 14 because their parent was a dead beat. Even so, that 25 year old is going to wind up catching on pretty damn fast when he eventually does have to live in the same environment. Whether or not, and how each individual survives is really much more a function of their personal nature, and beyond that even more a function of the simple reality that they are a human being and have for the most part the same functional limitations of any other human being.

This doesn't even take into account more subjective value based assumptions that aren't necessarily true. Like the assumption that someone who did actually have a greater capacity for manipulation necessarily would manipulate someone in a romantic relationship. Are ENFJs to date no one but other ENFJs because they are naturally better at manipulating people? Not to mention that the assumption that two people need to have similar levels of social aka "life" experience in order to have a healthy and successful romantic relationship. Should the 25 year old couch surfer only date teens in high school just because he has the same level of social experience with working society as they do? Should the 16 year old with more "life experience" be prohibited from dating people in high school because most teens have yet to adjust to the environment she has? Is it really even all that taboo to date outside your social environment? Just because a 20-something may live in a different world than a 50 something doesn't mean that they can't love each other. A lot of the same arguments could be made against people of different races or religions dating each other as have been made in this thread, and if you ask me, they would be just as unfounded for the exact same reasons.

I mean, seriously, we are for the most part all NTs here, if we can't rationally and objectively question the fundamental basis of our own cultural biases when they are this obvious, who can.

[Sesquipedalian]

Good points. Yes... I think there are certain social norms which are really just our culture, and which have nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of a relationship.

Can a 22 year old court then date then marry a 17 year old and have it turn out beautifully? Yeah. Would they run into a lot of people who think the guy is a pervert and that the girl is being manipulated? Almost definitely.

[AnotherNormal]

So if we take the formulas by Storm, this is what it looks like in a spreadsheet:

Your Age Lower Limit Upper Limit
18 16 22
20 17 26
22 18 30
24 19 34
26 20 38
28 21 42
30 22 46
32 23 50
34 24 54
36 25 58
38 26 62
40 27 66
42 28 70
44 29 74
46 30 78
48 31 82
50 32 86
52 33 90
54 34 94
56 35 98
58 36 102
60 37 106

[azelismia]

I think this thread is probably a better indication of just how significant the influence of popular culture is on our value system, and how truly disconnected F and T functions can be in a given individual, than anything else.

Obviously, a lot of this stuff is definitively subjective, but I also see a lot of people making assumptions that are built on such a shaky foundation that they are fundamentally undermined by nothing more than a little common sense and observation of self evident truths. Perhaps the most obvious is the apparent assumption that there is a linear correlation between age and mental competence. If anything it is asymptotic, and quite frankly, barring mental retardation you'd be pushing your luck to say that the curve hasn't already seriously leveled off by the time someone hits 15 years of age. Whether or not the circumstances of their life at that point have prepared them for interaction with society is obviously subjective and based on culture, but I'm sorry, there will be no more radically fundamental growth in their cognitive functionality.

Its almost as if people think being older somehow gives you psychic mind control powers. Which brings me to another assumption, that being older means you are necessarily capable of being more manipulative, and that you have greater "control" over the relationship. As INTJs I'd expect you guys to be well aware of the fact that the capacity for social interaction or manipulation and age do not go together. I've met people in their 30s that were wrapped around the little finger of their 12 year old daughter. Obviously this not always the case, but it does illustrate the fact that a relationship, romantic, platonic, filial, professional, or otherwise, is about the people involved, not the momentary circumstances of their lives. Just because you make more money than someone, and society has told you that more money and possessions means you are superior, doesn't make it so. Just because the current circumstances of your life dictate that you go to your 9:00 to 5:00 and bring home the bacon while the circumstances of your 16 year old kid's life dictate that he or she go to high school, doesn't necessarily mean you are a fundamentally superior individual or that you have absolute control over your relationship with them. You may feel entitled to be considered superior because your value system says you should be, but after a certain point people are people, they are as capable of learning, reacting, and thinking as anyone.

Experience in an environment may help to refine the capacity for survival provided by your natural potential, but it won't radically improve it. When exactly your kids are eventually forced to live under the same circumstances that you are is really not even a function of their age. A 25 year old that has been hanging out on their parent's couch since high school is going to have less real world experience than a 16 year old that had to get a job and has been working through school since he or she was 14 because their parent was a dead beat. Even so, that 25 year old is going to wind up catching on pretty damn fast when he eventually does have to live in the same environment. Whether or not, and how each individual survives is really much more a function of their personal nature, and beyond that even more a function of the simple reality that they are a human being and have for the most part the same functional limitations of any other human being.

This doesn't even take into account more subjective value based assumptions that aren't necessarily true. Like the assumption that someone who did actually have a greater capacity for manipulation necessarily would manipulate someone in a romantic relationship. Are ENFJs to date no one but other ENFJs because they are naturally better at manipulating people? Not to mention that the assumption that two people need to have similar levels of social aka "life" experience in order to have a healthy and successful romantic relationship. Should the 25 year old couch surfer only date teens in high school just because he has the same level of social experience with working society as they do? Should the 16 year old with more "life experience" be prohibited from dating people in high school because most teens yet to adjust to the environment she has? Is it really even all that taboo to date outside your social environment? Just because a 20-something may live in a different world than a 50 something doesn't mean that they can't love each other. A lot of the same arguments could made against people of different races or religions dating each other, and they would be just as unfounded for the exact same reasons.

I mean, seriously, we are for the most part all NTs here, if we can't rationally and objectively question the fundamental basis of our own cultural biases when they are this obvious, who can.


manipulation runs thru all ages sure, but a 12 year old who is loved dearly by her parents and thus gets what she wants is a very different sort of manipulation than a 25 year old playing a 15 year old girl. While there are always exceptions to any rule in order to protect the vast majority of youth these social norms make sense.


your argument doesn't strike of somebody making "sense" it strikes me as someone trying to justify what they want. a streetwise 16 year old is still a kid who doesn't fully understand the motivations of older men. they still are kids.

[Sesquipedalian]

So if we take the formulas by Storm, this is what it looks like in a spreadsheet:

Your Age Lower Limit Upper Limit
18 16 22
20 17 26
22 18 30
24 19 34
26 20 38
28 21 42
30 22 46
32 23 50
34 24 54
36 25 58
38 26 62
40 27 66
42 28 70
44 29 74
46 30 78
48 31 82
50 32 86
52 33 90
54 34 94
56 35 98
58 36 102
60 37 106

Those 106 year olds sure are robbing the cradle by dating 60 year olds! xD hahahahaha

[amberlinen]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult. It was more a pun on him talking of homosexuality (and expressed aptly my disagreement).

There's actually no need to aptly express your disagreement, because no one here, including me, would totally agree on his view. That statement just illustrates a kind of intellectual ideal of love relationship, and it's somehow related to the topic of age difference in a totally unrelated way. So it's interesting to bring this up.

[Chain]

I'd have to agree with what Synamon said.

And i can't define exactly when 'adulthood' starts, other than I've met 21 year olds who shouldn't be allowed out of their home without mommy dressing them, and 17 year olds who I'd trust with my life savings.

I agree entirely and you can jack that age 21 thing up a few decades.

Just a number? Age is so much more than a number! Age signifies life experience, and by extension, more knowledge and (sometimes...) more wisdom. Age reflects when one was born and what kind of an impact that generation's history has had on the individual. Furthermore, it carries with it implications that one person might die significantly earlier than the other.

Once your brain physically becomes capable of advance human thought, it's just a number. I've met old fools and I've met young people with tons of wisdom.

I work with men mostly in their 50's and 60's. I jump social circles every couple years and with each crop the average age goes up between 5 and 10 years. I've dated women 18-40. Considering all of that, looking at social/interacting type maturity, here's what I've found: The exact same bullshit, games, etc. that were present in High School. The only differences were that it all became more complicated and more hidden with age.

I only had two problems because of age dating an older woman and only one was major:

1. She reached her max of having children.
2. She'd talk about things that happened before I was born or before I could remember and conversations occasionally got awkward.

...Puffi, between your disgust-with-non-virgins thread, and your posts in this thread, you're starting to disturb me.

In any case, I think it's safe to say that you definitely can't ignore age differences when considering a relationship. At the same time, however, age is, at best, a guideline for how to evaluate people - it's far from absolute. Sure, the longer a person has been alive, the more life experience he/she has had the potential to have, and the more important lessons he/she has had the potential to learn. The key word there is potential, though. Different people have different life histories, different upbringings, and different outlooks on life, and these things can have an equally strong influence on maturity as age can. Ultimately, age is important to keep in mind, but you can't make too many assumptions based on age before getting to know the person better.

I say all of that assuming that both people in question are legal adults, of course. :cheesy:

I'll agree it's a guideline based on a realistic trend. But, when you're looking for a very specific needle in a pile of needles, I say throw the guidelines out the window.

Example: Youth should bring beauty and health. The woman I've been with that had the best body was the oldest.

Hahaha, that formula is awesome! It really seems to work for most cases :D

When I wrote about an older person fostering the growth of a younger person to make up for the age gap, I wrote that with the mindset that it would fluidly transition from somewhat of a mentorship into a full-blown relationship. What are your thoughts on that?

What do you say if the youngin' is the mentor?

[pure potential]

Well, what's wrong is that is that love isn't a business arrangement. .

The business of life has its arrangements. Not always ones that may appeal to you personally, but a fact nonetheless. Preferences are preferences period, reasoning not need apply.

Now with the focus of building a strong, healthy, sustainable, personally intimate and loving relationship, I'd agree that those types of "civilized" arrangements are not the most constructive towards long-term success of that goal.

Age doesn't provide me with enough information to make a judgement on a persons ability to healthily enter into and sustain a mutual relationship on any level. Intellectual and emotional maturity are developed senses of character that are direct benefits from our availability of and responses to life experiences. If someone has had the opportunity to develop this maturity and is healthy enough to make conscious decisions towards both parties in the relationship, age turns into mere factor of attraction rather capability.

[Indubitably]

manipulation runs thru all ages sure, but a 12 year old who is loved dearly by her parents and thus gets what she wants is a very different sort of manipulation than a 25 year old playing a 15 year old girl. While there are always exceptions to any rule in order to protect the vast majority of youth these social norms make sense.


your argument doesn't strike of somebody making "sense" it strikes me as someone trying to justify what they want. a streetwise 16 year old is still a kid who doesn't fully understand the motivations of older men. they still are kids.

And? Does the fact that my position happens to be bolstered by objectivity negate the voracity of my argument? I'm not trying to claim that I am unbiased here, its just that my personal values and my desire to make sense of things coincide in this particular case.

The situation with the 12 year old girl, as you have mentioned, effectively serves no other purpose than to illustrate that a 12 year old is capable of being more manipulative than someone many years her senior. In doing so it emphasizes the fact that a relationship is between two people, not two sets of circumstances. It doesn't equate to the example of the 16 year old, nor does it need to, which is why I explicitly declined to extend that particular example to a romantic relationship. The point at which the majority of an individual's cognitive functionality is in full swing may be a little fuzzy, but at 12 I think it is a pretty safe bet to assume that anyone, even as little as a few years older does have a very real advantage in mental development, and then you are really talking about child abuse, which is an entirely different subject, and is both in my personal opinion, and according to my reasoning, equally as heinous whether it is being committed by a 16 year old or a 30 year old.

As for the 16 year old streetwise kid, I don't think his or her capacity for manipulation has much of anything to do with the fact that he or she is 16, I think it has to do with what kind of person he or she is. If the 16 year old knows how to live on their own, and so does the 30 year old, then at least they have a relatively similar level of competence when it comes to dealing with the demands of society, but that isn't even central to what I was talking about. The 30 year old may be manipulative, or they might not, said individual may have more relationship experience, but then they may not. Basically I don't think anyone should be emotionally manipulative, especially with the people they supposedly care for, but again, that has nothing to do with age.

Either way, the fact that the 30 year old is older alone doesn't some how give them greater power over the other. In the case that the 30 year old is indeed manipulative, and the 16 year old is indeed clueless when it comes to dealing with manipulative people, and the 30 year old has every intention of using their powers of manipulation to force the 16 year old into an abusive controlling relationship, I think it is pretty damn messed up. I also think that if the 16 year is manipulative and the 30 year old is forced into an abusive relationship it is messed up. Likewise if a 30 year old manipulates a clueless 30 year old, or a 16 year old manipulates a clueless 16 year old, again, the behavior is unacceptable.

Now, I don't think most people here are trying to stretch their argument to this extreme; but when someone does make a blanket statement about an entire population of individuals based on an arbitrary characteristic whether it be age, race, sex, occupation, social affiliation or anything else, it is very much my opinion that their actions debase the argument at hand. I don't think people should be manipulated, but for exactly that reason, neither do I think it is ok to try to manipulate or control the lives of people simply because they have found love with someone who happens to be outside the socially accepted range of ages. (As I said in my first post, unless your age does happen to indirectly mitigate the things that really matter, it is irresponsible and possibly even self destructive to let it dictate your love life.) That is my opinion, and yes I do think that if one strives to interpret the situation objectively it will serve to bear out both the justice of my position and the logical truth of my argument.

[llBradll]

While ages are just numbers, I'd feel better morally going out with a 45 year old woman then a 15 year old girl, and I'm 19 myself.
The more that I feel somebody is mature and can take care of themselves the better. In fact over the past year I've only really been interested with maybe four people. One was 21, and the other two I'd guess were late 20's and mid 40's.
Most young girls just like to party anyways--well around here anyways. So its hard to make a connection with somebody who has their fun almost exclusively by drinking and dancing.

[Krazy P]

People enter relationships - contracts with others if you will - for all kinds of reasons. People have done this for many years - for all of recorded history, actually.

Other people will always "judge" these relationship contracts through the prism of their own values and experiences - and against community norms.

From a moral standpoint, I think that you have to be old enough to enter a "contract" to be able to enter a relationship contract. That age varies - but seems to fall someone in modern society between 16 - 21.

We let 16 year old's take control of a piece of machinery, a tool (car, airplane, gun) which can cause great harm. I think that would be reasonable hurdle.

This is all moot anyway - we have extensive laws on the subject.

Does this help clarify your question?

[alphawolf]

When I was younger, I dated older women because they were better in bed. When I got older, I started dating younger women because they are better in bed. I still prefer women who are about 10 years younger than myself. Yeah, women in their 30s are the best when it comes to sex.

I think the line is usually, but not in all cases, crossed when one person is old enough to be the other one's parent. Not for social reasons, but because the younger person is usually looking for a father figure instead of an equal partner (or she's just after money).

A lot of women haven't gotten proper love from their fathers, and they try to find it with a romantic partner. I want a woman from whom I can also ask advice and opinions; not a one-way relationship where she needs a man to control her and make her behave. I don't want to be her father. These type of women do not usually like it when an older man treats her as an equal, at least that has been my experience on multiple occasions.

And the gold diggers are screwing every man they can.

[Storm]

This thread has advanced considerably since I last posted, so I'm going to respond based on where it is now and not where it was.

Indubitably has made a lot of good points; that age alone is not vindictive of maturity and each circumstance must be looked at individually.

However, I don't think anyone has been arguing for a hardline rule and age is a very good guidepost as to someone's maturity. Further, it's also a good indiciation of what someone is looking for in relationship. (again not absolute)
People in their 60s are not typically looking to start a new family, whereas people in their 20s are just starting off their life.

Part of this is also practical. Assuming we're limiting the discussion to people that want to gain a life partner (not gold diggers), then more than a 20 or 25 year old age difference is going to compromise that goal. The older person will in a nursing home while the younger person is still in their prime.

And to address the earlier part of this thread: On Mentoring
I firmly believe that romantic relatinoships should start off on equal footing because partners should be solving problems together.
However, perhaps others could stream between mentor/student to colleagues. However, it's easier said than done and few could pull it off.