Rape Fantasies

[Shinqui]

At the risk of derailing another thread (whoops, neat how I accidently started a new thread)

Rape is about power. It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it, your enjoyment is not what the rapist is after. (Callous, cold, yes, but apparently true.)

Rape fantasies are about desire and struggle.

Two completely different things.

[Sinequanon]

At the risk of derailing another thread (whoops, neat how I accidently started a new thread)

Rape is about power. It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it, your enjoyment is not what the rapist is after. (Callous, cold, yes, but apparently true.)

Rape fantasies are about desire and struggle.

Two completely different things.
Rape is also not about sex, and it's sort of hard to enjoy getting your face bashed in by a person you've never met.

[nacht]

At the risk of derailing another thread (whoops, neat how I accidently started a new thread)

Rape is about power. It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it, your enjoyment is not what the rapist is after. (Callous, cold, yes, but apparently true.)

Rape fantasies are about desire and struggle.

Two completely different things.

Rape fantasies can also be about power transference.

[Shinqui]

Rape fantasies can also be about power transference.

Oh to be sure, but typically would you find them to be in the same sphere as the power play enacted in real rape? Perhaps it is, while rape fantasies remain fairly common amongst women, it has not been something I have been requested to play at so far. So my knowledge here is limited.

[nacht]

In a 1980 study (Crépault C, Couture M. "Men's erotic fantasies", cited on Wikipedia (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)), 45.8% of men during heterosexual intercourse fantasized about "a scene where [they had] the impression of being raped by a woman." 44.7% fantasized about a woman who "pretends resisting," and 33% raping a woman.

According to this article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.'s+erotic+rape+fantasies:+an+evaluation+of+th eory+and+research.-a0176374283) between 31% and 49% of women have rape fantasies (the numbers go up for people who are college age), and these numbers are quite possibly underestimates.


Oh to be sure, but typically would you find them to be in the same sphere as the power play enacted in real rape? Perhaps it is, while rape fantasies remain fairly common amongst women, it has not been something I have been requested to play at so far. So my knowledge here is limited.

Depends on how you define "sphere of power."

Power is seductive for both men and women, on both sides. I've seen the question asked about how to act out an anonymous rape fantasy with an abduction pretense--in which case the only real differences would be prearranged consent and (hopefully) a safe word. Those are fairly dramatic differences on one hand (from an abstract point of view), but on the other hand are about the only way to conduct such ethically (SSC).

It really depends on the individuals involved and what they are looking for.

[Mina]

I'm female and I've been having rape fantasies for as long as I can remember. To be sure, I wouldn't enjoy it in real life- even if the guy was attractive, I'd be too worried about STDs and such. But it is a scenario I like to play out with lovers. In my relationships, "no" means "yes please." I like it rough, too. This can include (but is not limited to) hitting (not with a closed fist!), hair pulling, choking, etc. My only requirement is that he can't do anything to me that I wouldn't be allowed to do to him (because I enjoy taking on the dominant role sometimes, as well!).

[Shinqui]

Wow, those numbers are way higher than I would have thought!

I guess the power difference here might have to do with my perception that rape fantasies are still about sex, where rape itself, is not.

Certainly power exchanges are extremely interesting in sexual encounters, although I tend to gravitate towards voluntary power exchanges rather than pretending things are involuntary. Perhaps that is the T vs F, but I'm sure we will see if this is the case as this thread progresses, certainly many here will volunteer information on their preferences.

[Nomadofthehills]

Rape is about sex to some degree. I had a professor who gave an entire lecture on human rape and evolution.

Statistically, rape is linked to anger, lust, and the ability to not get caught. The most common targets for rape are young, attractive women. If rape were only about power, then old decrepit women would be just as likely to be raped.

[Maayan]

I guess the power difference here might have to do with my perception that rape fantasies are still about sex


I had this conversation the other day. :laugh: I can't speak for other women, but for me, the appeal lies in the psychological power play. The physical aspects serve to reinforce the thoughts spinning in my head. I imagine them being aroused not only by my body, but by my body language as well. For me, a big part of the fantasy is what's going through my partner's head. I like to imagine that he's thinking about what I'm thinking. :laugh: That he's thinking that he enjoys tormenting me, and that he enjoys the fact that I'm feeling tormented. Mind games are a huge part of the appeal. (On that note, when a partner asks me to elaborate on "mind games," I never know how to instruct him. I don't know the first thing about messing with people's heads!)

So... for me, it's certainly about desire, although the nature of that desire is instrumental to my cause.

[Sinequanon]

I guess the power difference here might have to do with my perception that rape fantasies are still about sex, where rape itself, is not.
Yeah, rape fantasies are, I think, primarily about sex, the quote above is a bit out of context, I think, since the women were talking about depictions of actual rape but in a fictional context ("fantasy rape"). The desire to be taken against one's will by a person you trust is a completely different thing from the violent act of actual rape.

[karenk]

If rape were only about power, then old decrepit women would be just as likely to be raped.

You do realize "old decrepit women" get raped too, right? I mean if you're not referring to date rape.

[changos]

I had a GF who enjoyed the "rape me" thing. At first I thought it was a joke, then I was impressed on what was going on. I agreed to find out what would happened. She loved it, she asked for it too and even used certain clothes to allow tearing it apart. I was very interested on understanding the how, the why... never got it and I must confess it was disturbing for me to play that role at that level, we finally split for several other reasons.

She enjoyed being dominated. It was problematic, I couldn't deal with the screaming while role playing... she screamed like crazy and that made almost impossible for me to enjoy anything (worried by the neighbors). And... being my GF (relationship) I was worried about the future... "hey kids, go turn on the TV and put on some loud rock and roll!!!".

I think, to some extent, we need to deal with discussions and disagreements in some or other way and role playing allow us to even take advantage of that energy. But I'm very interested on hearing more from the protagonists.

[Nomadofthehills]

You do realize "old decrepit women" get raped too, right? I mean if you're not referring to date rape.

I'm not referring to date rape, and old decrepit women do not get raped at nearly the same frequency as younger attractive women.

[Valiyn]

From my years in the BDSM community, I've noticed it is perfectly natural to want to be dominated. It's all about control. See, trust is very important to everyone, and the level of trusted needed to even temporary let someone do whatever they want to you is more then alot of people can hope for in a relationship today.

Here's my idea of why: MASLOW'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS

Physiological, Safety, Love/Belonging, Esteem, and Self-actualization. In a fantasy rape, we have the rapee that has mentally given up control (by having it forcefully taken away in their minds) so that another can attempt to fulfill their needs. In real rape, obviously, the rapist won't fulfill these -- in a fantasy however, they actually will. And it's a very small difference. Stockholme syndrome really isn't a sickness or illness or anything bad...infact, it's probally been a key to human evolution. We want someone who can meet our needs on their own (because there will be times when we can't do it ourselves and we want a mate that can help us anywhere we need it.)
Physiological - Physical needs are met by a fantasy rapist (or dom) by providing you the sex and attention you want. Perhaps it's without religious condemation you're able to have it, or perhaps you want to fill like you've inspired someone primal need for you.
Safety - I know what you all are thinking "safety in rape?!", but it's true. Real rape isn't safe, but fantasy rapist tend to only go as far as subcontiously we allow them to. They are safe and controlled by our minds, even if they hurt us. Pain and pleasure arn't that different in terms of nerve signals. And your pain tolerance increases greatly when you are aroused. The rapist or dom is a powerful figure, powerful enough to render you helpless. They can do whatever they damn well want with you. And that's the thing, they are very powerful. We want powerful people in our lives to protect us. We all want the alpha mate that will turn hell upside down to save us.
Love/Belonging - Love and belonging are really intersting concepts when talking about rape fantasy. Instead of love, we're looking at primal lust and need for sex. We're that irrestistable to the rapist. We also have a clear role: helpless. Doesn't seem like much of a role, but in reality, it is. Quite a bit so - we are not in control at all, and have nothing to do with this rape. Ultimately, you need to zome out if you really want to see this in action. We really can't meet our needs by ourselves, dispite how much INTJs want to. There will always be those moments of uncertainty were our greatest plans won't get anywhere. That's life, or in this case, a rape fantasy. We know our role in it, and we can't escape it, and so we make peace with the choatic situation. Believe it or not, rape fantasies are often stress releif for those who have them.
Esteem - Esteem from being raped? really? Oh yes. You are beautiful and attactive enough someone went out of their way to break the law, fight through your defenses, just to get to the treasure: you. INTJs love it when people break down their defenses and earn their trust in conversations - and rape fantasies really aren't that different for most people. We want to feel charished, be the reward at the end of a long and dangerous journey. Being the victim in a rape fantasy is almost like flipping to the climax of the book where the hero conquers the villain -- and you lean back in your chair. That part of the book might only have been 2 pages, but the chase has been going on for the past 100. In a rape fantasy, the rapee was worth the chase to the rapist. The harder we are to rape, the more they have to work, and the more we feel like the reward.
Self-actualization - This is where it all comes togeather. We feel wanted and desired, have made peace with the brutality of life, we are still safe, and by this point - probally orgasming and enjoying the physical enjoyment of it. We have transended a horrible event to the point, that when the fantasy rapist leaves, we get on with our lives unaffected by it. Something that takes some very strong character according to the world around us.

And so, we have rape fantasies because they fulfill our needs.

[firebee]

I had this conversation the other day. :laugh: I can't speak for other women, but for me, the appeal lies in the psychological power play.

Interesting. Psychological games seem to be something of a Big Thing for me, but in this particular scenario I don't think of it first. This is probably also a matter of definitions, but for me I see the physical balance of working to the limits of all of my joints, rather than something that is more internal.

But let me call this out explicitly as one potential motivation for the fantasy: it's an implementation of pitting your entire strength and skill against an opposing force. And if you win, there's no guarantee that you found all of it...





firebee added to this post, 1 minutes and 46 seconds later...

And, ah... I think the INTJf may just need, as an abstract entity, to get some... considering the way every single line of conversation seems to go. Or maybe that's just me.

[Valiyn]

And, ah... I think the INTJf may just need, as an abstract entity, to get some... considering the way every single line of conversation seems to go. Or maybe that's just me.

Any females are more then welcome to contact me for mental stimulation...*cackles* :p There is a very good reason "Virgins" is in our motto on the forum. Perhaps that is why there are rape fantasies....the only way we'll ever get some!

/apologizes for the awful jokes.

[firebee]

There is a very good reason "Virgins" is in our motto on the forum.

Haha. I think it's something of a NT curse -- our way of thinking is sufficiently foreign to the general run of things that we have something of a tendency to either become masters of our domain ;P or abandon the field.

[Chain]

Oh to be sure, but typically would you find them to be in the same sphere as the power play enacted in real rape? Perhaps it is, while rape fantasies remain fairly common amongst women, it has not been something I have been requested to play at so far. So my knowledge here is limited.

Sometimes. It's not unheard of for women to orgasm while being raped. However, after it's over, the rapist isn't "stabilizing" her emotionally like a lover would.

Wow, those numbers are way higher than I would have thought!

I guess the power difference here might have to do with my perception that rape fantasies are still about sex, where rape itself, is not.

Certainly power exchanges are extremely interesting in sexual encounters, although I tend to gravitate towards voluntary power exchanges rather than pretending things are involuntary. Perhaps that is the T vs F, but I'm sure we will see if this is the case as this thread progresses, certainly many here will volunteer information on their preferences.

It's the loss of control and power that makes the fantasy sexually enticing. Also, even among lovers, sexual activities are not always about sex.

I had this conversation the other day. :laugh: I can't speak for other women, but for me, the appeal lies in the psychological power play. The physical aspects serve to reinforce the thoughts spinning in my head. I imagine them being aroused not only by my body, but by my body language as well. For me, a big part of the fantasy is what's going through my partner's head. I like to imagine that he's thinking about what I'm thinking. :laugh: That he's thinking that he enjoys tormenting me, and that he enjoys the fact that I'm feeling tormented. Mind games are a huge part of the appeal. (On that note, when a partner asks me to elaborate on "mind games," I never know how to instruct him. I don't know the first thing about messing with people's heads!)

So... for me, it's certainly about desire, although the nature of that desire is instrumental to my cause.

"Mind games" can come in a lot of forms and be about a lot things. If you'd like, start another thread or PM me.

From my years in the BDSM community, I've noticed it is perfectly natural to want to be dominated. It's all about control. See, trust is very important to everyone, and the level of trusted needed to even temporary let someone do whatever they want to you is more then alot of people can hope for in a relationship today.

Here's my idea of why: MASLOW'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS

Physiological, Safety, Love/Belonging, Esteem, and Self-actualization. In a fantasy rape, we have the rapee that has mentally given up control (by having it forcefully taken away in their minds) so that another can attempt to fulfill their needs. In real rape, obviously, the rapist won't fulfill these -- in a fantasy however, they actually will. And it's a very small difference. Stockholme syndrome really isn't a sickness or illness or anything bad...infact, it's probally been a key to human evolution. We want someone who can meet our needs on their own (because there will be times when we can't do it ourselves and we want a mate that can help us anywhere we need it.)
Physiological - Physical needs are met by a fantasy rapist (or dom) by providing you the sex and attention you want. Perhaps it's without religious condemation you're able to have it, or perhaps you want to fill like you've inspired someone primal need for you.
Safety - I know what you all are thinking "safety in rape?!", but it's true. Real rape isn't safe, but fantasy rapist tend to only go as far as subcontiously we allow them to. They are safe and controlled by our minds, even if they hurt us. Pain and pleasure arn't that different in terms of nerve signals. And your pain tolerance increases greatly when you are aroused. The rapist or dom is a powerful figure, powerful enough to render you helpless. They can do whatever they damn well want with you. And that's the thing, they are very powerful. We want powerful people in our lives to protect us. We all want the alpha mate that will turn hell upside down to save us.
Love/Belonging - Love and belonging are really intersting concepts when talking about rape fantasy. Instead of love, we're looking at primal lust and need for sex. We're that irrestistable to the rapist. We also have a clear role: helpless. Doesn't seem like much of a role, but in reality, it is. Quite a bit so - we are not in control at all, and have nothing to do with this rape. Ultimately, you need to zome out if you really want to see this in action. We really can't meet our needs by ourselves, dispite how much INTJs want to. There will always be those moments of uncertainty were our greatest plans won't get anywhere. That's life, or in this case, a rape fantasy. We know our role in it, and we can't escape it, and so we make peace with the choatic situation. Believe it or not, rape fantasies are often stress releif for those who have them.
Esteem - Esteem from being raped? really? Oh yes. You are beautiful and attactive enough someone went out of their way to break the law, fight through your defenses, just to get to the treasure: you. INTJs love it when people break down their defenses and earn their trust in conversations - and rape fantasies really aren't that different for most people. We want to feel charished, be the reward at the end of a long and dangerous journey. Being the victim in a rape fantasy is almost like flipping to the climax of the book where the hero conquers the villain -- and you lean back in your chair. That part of the book might only have been 2 pages, but the chase has been going on for the past 100. In a rape fantasy, the rapee was worth the chase to the rapist. The harder we are to rape, the more they have to work, and the more we feel like the reward.
Self-actualization - This is where it all comes togeather. We feel wanted and desired, have made peace with the brutality of life, we are still safe, and by this point - probally orgasming and enjoying the physical enjoyment of it. We have transended a horrible event to the point, that when the fantasy rapist leaves, we get on with our lives unaffected by it. Something that takes some very strong character according to the world around us.

And so, we have rape fantasies because they fulfill our needs.

Very good post.

[karenk]

I'm not referring to date rape, and old decrepit women do not get raped at nearly the same frequency as younger attractive women.

Just curious if you have any statistics/where you're getting this info from. I'm not saying it's unbelievable. I'm just curious about the comparisons.

[nacht]

Let's throw out some stats:

Age Patterns of Victims of Serious Violent Crime (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Unfortunately the way that the the statistics are reported makes it very difficult to make direct inferences. From what is reported we can conclude that individuals 50+ are rarely raped and those 12 to 24 are--by and far--the most likely to be raped.

This includes all forms of reported rape, including date rape.

This also doesn't support nor counter the hypothesis that rape is about power. Intuitively we could say that if you are going to rape someone at random, you would pick someone young and attractive regardless of the motivations that lead you to rape someone.

[Nomadofthehills]

Just curious if you have any statistics/where you're getting this info from. I'm not saying it's unbelievable. I'm just curious about the comparisons.

I wish I did, I normally do not like to talk without having the stats to back it up, but I received this information from a professor that is highly regarded in the field of criminal justice, genetics, and evolution.





Nomadofthehills added to this post, 2 minutes and 8 seconds later...

This also doesn't support nor counter the hypothesis that rape is about power. Intuitively we could say that if you are going to rape someone at random, you would pick someone young and attractive regardless of the motivations that lead you to rape someone.

You would also rape someone vulnerable. Damn, I wish I remembered more of the lecture I attended... It was all spilled out exquisitely.

[playthestatic]

I remember the first time I heard that some people fantasized about being raped. I couldn't understand why they'd want it; I greatly fear losing control of my mind or body, and thus, along with becoming insane, being raped is something I hope to avoid.

Dominance and submission, to me, is the fundamental dynamic of rape. Perhaps old decrepit women do not get raped as often as younger attractive women because a greater sense of twisted and satisfaction is gotten out of subjugating more desirable and sought-after (by conventional standards) victims? And sex is the fundamental action involved in rape - along with the thrill of subjugating someone, I doubt a rapist who had conventional sexual preferences would turn down the added pleasure of having sex with an attractive young woman, as opposed to a less attractive old woman.

[rara avis]

To me, a non-consent fantasy is about-
- Not being responsible for what occurs; it's out of your control. There is a lot of freedom in that, for a Thinker- especially, imho, for a female T.

- The idea of triggering an animalistic arousal in your partner, at a brass-tacks level that would make them break their own rules of decency to get to you. (just for pretendsies, mind you)

- focussing on particular classic aspects of the masculine/feminine power exchange- particularly masculine physical prowess/strength/testosterone.

It comes nowhere near encompassing the entire range of exchange that happens between people in an average balanced, healthy relationship- doesn't hit much on the care-taking aspects of the genders, for instance. But sometimes it's nice to hit one button without messing around with the others, if only for novelty's sake.

In my mind, there is really no essential relation in this type of fantasy to an actual rape.

[Lagawrd]

Rape is about power. It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it, your enjoyment is not what the rapist is after. (Callous, cold, yes, but apparently true.)

Why do I highly doubt such a thing? Pretend to enjoy it and there is a chance it might stop? Eh... that is pushing it.

[Maayan]

This is probably also a matter of definitions, but for me I see the physical balance of working to the limits of all of my joints, rather than something that is more internal.

But let me call this out explicitly as one potential motivation for the fantasy: it's an implementation of pitting your entire strength and skill against an opposing force. And if you win, there's no guarantee that you found all of it...


God, yes. I relate completely. You hit the nail on the head when you (aptly!) described the tension that's created by resisting an opposing force, and the ultimate failure to withstand that tension, as an underlying appeal. My partner, for his part, finds a cruel enjoyment in chipping away at my resistance. For both of us, the excitement lies in the process as well as -- if not more than -- in the end result. (And the permutations of this arrangement are endless. Catholic guilt, you say? rara avis touched on this: he could be in conflict with me -and- with himself. Call it a psychological threesome.) It's important for me to establish beforehand that my partner and I share a common motivator and opposing goals. Then, a staged rape provides us with the impetus to use our minds and/or our bodies to generate that tension.

(Huh. I've never been able to put that into words before.)

I enjoy including both physical motivators and emotional motivators in power play. In some of my fantasies, I might not even be exerting my body -- the interaction could be entirely verbal and still create the desired effect.


"Mind games" can come in a lot of forms and be about a lot things. If you'd like, start another thread or PM me.


Done. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) The floor is yours.

[Curious Cat]

I think rape fantasies are a way to take yourself out of life. The world can be a scary place, one takes a risk every time they make a decision. If you take take away the decision you take away the fear, you feel safe, so you feel free at least temporarily.

At least that is how it is with me, I can't speak for anyone else.

[Chain]

A year or two ago I was doing some research on sadism and across a college website who's psychology department had a long write-up on rape. An interesting note was a long explanation of the FBI's profiles for rapists. Unfortunately, I haven't found it yet, but at the moment, here's the closest thing I can find: Rapist Profiling. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

FYI: There is no claim stated or implied that the above link contains entirely accurate information.

[LionsPride]

It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it, your enjoyment is not what the rapist is after. (Callous, cold, yes, but apparently true.)

I would actively discourage ANYONE to believe this statement to be true. There are different types of rapists that are after different things and while this might be true in some small percentage of rapes, it could be harmful with the other percentage of rapists. In Chains' post, a link was provided describing types of rapists, specifically that there are those that rape to make themselves feel they are desired. Providing fuel for this desire is not going to save you in a rape situation and might even encourage them to come back if they raped you in your home.

I think there seems to be a desire for some solution that if a women could just remember it, she could protect herself from rape. I think it provides a sense of security. The issue is there is no tried and true way to defend against all rapes as rapists aren't all made the same. It's a nice thought, that you can prevent your own rape, but in practice, you might do more harm than good. The best advice would be to try and remember identifying features of the rapist, not destroy evidence, and to report rapes (so many are not). Of course, this isn't something that makes women feel safer, so they tend to get told ridiculous things like wearing coveralls to prevent rapists from tearing off your clothing...

As to rape fantasies, I agree that fantasies are vastly different from rape. Regardless of the reasons behind either rape or fantasy rape, consent makes the difference.

[Shinqui]

Certainly various situations call for different responses, however this statement is not really in dispute. When faced with a man that wants to hurt you, wants you to be afraid, wants to take something from you, wants to dominate you, sometimes the best course of action is compliance. This can completely change a situation to the point where the sexual agression of the attacker is completely nullified.

Of course, the altogether best defense would be street smarts, they can take you far. Many situations are completely avoidable, but not all.

Learning how to kill someone easily with your bare hands also works pretty well in my opinion.

What are the stats now, one in four, one in three women will be raped in their lifetime? Far too many, best to be prepared.

[firebee]

Certainly various situations call for different responses, however this statement is not really in dispute. When faced with a man that wants to hurt you, wants you to be afraid, wants to take something from you, wants to dominate you, sometimes the best course of action is compliance. This can completely change a situation to the point where the sexual agression of the attacker is completely nullified.


For some reason I'm thinking of a tale (apocryphal?) of a person who complied with a rapist up to a certain point. That certain point being when her teeth were in a particular relationship with his bits. At this point she made a minor alteration to the plan which rather ruined his day.


Of course, the altogether best defense would be street smarts, they can take you far. Many situations are completely avoidable, but not all.


A few years ago, I was leaving a record store shortly after dark, when two guys who were hanging out in a parking lot came out and asked me for money. I stopped immediately, with them about 15-20 feet away from me, and said "no thank you" (and, I think, a couple other polite things) in a very firm and carrying tone. They stayed where they were -- which happened to be roughly in between me and my car. I waited. After a few beats they moved away such that my car was between me and them, and they were far enough away that I could get to the car without entering their space or turning my back to them. I left without incident.


Learning how to kill someone easily with your bare hands also works pretty well in my opinion.


Fracturing the trachea is an effective means of rearranging someone's priorities. That said, this is the last step in a chain of responses and one that you or I will (fortunately!) probably never see. If you manage your space, fear the right things (deBecker's The Gift of Fear describes this better than I ever could), and respond assertively to people who draw your attention, then a number of potential problems will fall away before you or anyone else even notices that they exist. And if something doesn't fall away, you'll be in a better position to deal with it.

And learn breakfalls. This skill has saved me from more serious injury than anything else I've learned from martial arts.

[Chain]

Certainly various situations call for different responses, however this statement is not really in dispute. When faced with a man that wants to hurt you, wants you to be afraid, wants to take something from you, wants to dominate you, sometimes the best course of action is compliance. This can completely change a situation to the point where the sexual agression of the attacker is completely nullified.

Of course, the altogether best defense would be street smarts, they can take you far. Many situations are completely avoidable, but not all.

Learning how to kill someone easily with your bare hands also works pretty well in my opinion.

What are the stats now, one in four, one in three women will be raped in their lifetime? Far too many, best to be prepared.

Wanting power and wanting to exert aggression are not the same. With someone that merely wants power, aggression is a tool not a motivation. Compliance in that situation doesn't mean they'll stop, the activity will become unenjoyable to them or even that they'll be less aggressive; it simply means that you've removed their need to be agressive, whether they see it as that or not.

Any self-defense class will tell you: The best way to ensure your safety is not to be in a bad situation to begin with, and the majority of them are easily avoidable.

[Shinqui]

Fracturing the trachea is an effective means of rearranging someone's priorities. That said, this is the last step in a chain of responses and one that you or I will (fortunately!) probably never see. If you manage your space, fear the right things (deBecker's The Gift of Fear describes this better than I ever could), and respond assertively to people who draw your attention, then a number of potential problems will fall away before you or anyone else even notices that they exist. And if something doesn't fall away, you'll be in a better position to deal with it.


Exceptionaly well said, particularily the part about managing your space.

[llBradll]

I'm female and I've been having rape fantasies for as long as I can remember. To be sure, I wouldn't enjoy it in real life- even if the guy was attractive, I'd be too worried about STDs and such. But it is a scenario I like to play out with lovers. In my relationships, "no" means "yes please." I like it rough, too. This can include (but is not limited to) hitting (not with a closed fist!), hair pulling, choking, etc. My only requirement is that he can't do anything to me that I wouldn't be allowed to do to him (because I enjoy taking on the dominant role sometimes, as well!).
So what was this thread about again? Somehow I just lost my train of thought.
Being a guy I'd like to point out that I like the idea of a female taking control. I like the idea of her taking whatever she wants. However I can't really enjoy the idea of being the rapist. I guess I don't feel the thoughts needed to get into the role.

[LionsPride]

Learning how to kill someone easily with your bare hands also works pretty well in my opinion.

In theory, it seems like a good idea, but in practise it doesn't work so well. Reason being that self defence skills are only good if they are current. Like language, those skills fade over time and in a violent situation, these skills need to be second nature not "where's that pressure point again..." Even worse is lashing out and failing in your attack. Now women who train or participate in fighting classes regularly would be better suited to a defence, but for most women it just makes them more confident and can lead to more risk taking.

I believe the best advice is "live" and like people who are robbed, often it is the ones who fight back or do something sneaky that wind up injured. Faking that you like the rape is ridiculous. You don't have to pretend you enjoy the rape to live through it. Again, the best advice is to remember your attacker, preserve evidence, report it immediately and press charges.

Rapes don't just happen in "the streets". In most cases rape is caused by someone you know, to the tune of about 80%. Of the remaining 20% some of those might be from someone breaking into your home. Not walking down certain alleys does improve your odds, but chances are that guy who bought you your umpteenth drink or worse, dropped something in it, is going to get you first.

[Shinqui]

Lionspride,

Street smarts have nothing to do with being on a street.

The statement about compliance and enjoyment is not mine, its a rather widely held opinion.

Women, well really people in general, have a responsibility to themselves to learn how to defend against those that would do them harm.

Anway, you've got a lot of emotional stuff tied up in your responses, I'm not going to argue it further with you.

Peace

[dalidaisy]

We generally define rape as sex against the victim's will. But a woman mentally aroused by a sexual assault fantasy isn't thinking about the victim's will. She's thinking about the perpetrator's. She's imagining being wanted. That's what she wants—and the fact that she wants it exposes the fantasy, by definition, as not really rape. The imaginary act arouses her not because the woman in the scenario doesn't want it, but because the man does.

The fact is, the guy who is doing the "raping" in a lot of women's fantasies of forced sex is someone who she might want to have sex with anyway. Missing is the terror, violence, confusion, rage and disgust that makes rape, rape. The woman with the fantasy is in control by virtue of who she has "raping" her or because she's the one scripting the scenerio, while control is the last thing that a woman who is being raped has any of.

I think that whatever sexual activities (role-play, in this case) consenting adults engage in is just fine, and is their own business to pleasure and satisfy each other however makes them both (or more) content. Even if the word "rape" is used, this form of role-play is consensual, it is about power, expressing dominance and submission in sexuality. So, I don't see it as being healthy or unhealthy, but as individuals expressing themselves sexually... we are sexual beings with our own inclinations.

[Sinequanon]

Again I find the "enjoy the (actual) rape and he'll leave you alone" line of thinking really stupid. Do a google image search for "rape victims" and tell those women how they should have just enjoyed getting beaten. Or is it your hypothesis that their non-compliance "caused" their worsening injuries? This whole line of thought is really troubling.

[firebee]

Again I find the "enjoy the (actual) rape and he'll leave you alone" line of thinking really stupid. Do a google image search for "rape victims" and tell those women how they should have just enjoyed getting beaten. Or is it your hypothesis that their non-compliance "caused" their worsening injuries? This whole line of thought is really troubling.

I can't speak for him, but from my perspective it's not a matter of "don't trouble your little head about it". Compliance is not a good alternative, but by the time it gets to that point there may be no good alternatives. The most sensible-sounding advice I've heard is not to follow any given formula, but rather to keep your head about you and take the action that seems likely to get you away with the least damage. If that includes crashing the car with you and the attacker in it, or killing the attacker, or giving in to avoid a beating that will surely kill you, then so be it.

And I emphasize that this is not about assigning fault to victims for any action that they did or did not take. If anything, it is about saying "whatever you did is what you saw best to do at the time, and I defer to your judgement then -- regardless of the degree of success obtained."

[Sinequanon]

I can't speak for him, but from my perspective it's not a matter of "don't trouble your little head about it". Compliance is not a good alternative, but by the time it gets to that point there may be no good alternatives. The most sensible-sounding advice I've heard is not to follow any given formula, but rather to keep your head about you and take the action that seems likely to get you away with the least damage. If that includes crashing the car with you and the attacker in it, or killing the attacker, or giving in to avoid a beating that will surely kill you, then so be it.

And I emphasize that this is not about assigning fault to victims for any action that they did or did not take. If anything, it is about saying "whatever you did is what you saw best to do at the time, and I defer to your judgement then -- regardless of the degree of success obtained."
There's a world of difference between saying "You should comply as much as you can to protect yourself" against someone who is obviously already overpowering you, and saying you should "pretend to enjoy it." (<-- That's an actual quote)

[firebee]

There's a world of difference between saying "You should comply as much as you can to protect yourself" against someone who is obviously already overpowering you, and saying you should "pretend to enjoy it." (<-- That's an actual quote)

Yes it is, but there's a world of difference between pretending to enjoy something and "enjoy the (actual) rape and he'll leave you alone". Which is also an actual quote.

[Sinequanon]

Yes it is, but there's a world of difference between pretending to enjoy something and "enjoy the (actual) rape and he'll leave you alone". Which is also an actual quote.
No there's not. The whole quote is: "It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it." Which is to say if she starts moaning in ecstasy, he'll just get up and leave because he's totally not that into consensual sex. It's a statement which makes very little sense in the reality of the crime of rape.

[LionsPride]

The statement about compliance and enjoyment is not mine, its a rather widely held opinion.Really? Because I did some searches and not once did I come across this widely held belief in any women's pamphlets or websites dedicated to rape victims. I would think that some really great advice that would make attackers stop raping you would be widely published on many credible pages.

Women, well really people in general, have a responsibility to themselves to learn how to defend against those that would do them harm.Yes, and some of the most common advice I read when actually reading rape webpages was that "escape any chance you get" and to "yell and run" (usually involved in escaping) was a close second. After that came the advice I gave of remembering, preserving evidence, reporting and testifying (which I should have clarified was in the event escape wasn't available). Oddly enough your advice of learning how to kill a person or to pretend to like it didn't come up anywhere.

Anway, you've got a lot of emotional stuff tied up in your responses, I'm not going to argue it further with you.If by "emotional" you mean a great desire to educate people about the truths surrounding rape especially to counter very bad advice given then yes, I am emotional. While my comments were strong and contained no jokes like many of my other posts, I didn't think I was particularly emotional in my posts. I was blunt and pointed out your advice was wrong. If you can't handle this, then I suggest you review your "widely held opinions" for accuracy before you post them.

Perhaps by rape fantasies you actually meant rape myths? See, there's a joke, now everyone can tell I'm just being me.

[firebee]

I am seeing a lack of ravishing here. Is there any kind soul who might offer up, e.g. a grabbing by the hair and holding a knife to the throat while...???

No there's not. The whole quote is: "It is speculated that the easiest way to stop a rape is to pretend to enjoy it." Which is to say if she starts moaning in ecstasy, he'll just get up and leave because he's totally not that into consensual sex. It's a statement which makes very little sense in the reality of the crime of rape.

Possibly it is speculated by idiots. But nonetheless the difference between fake and actual enjoyment is not trivial. One is suggesting actual resignation to the situation, whereas the other is a show meant to gain tactical advantage. Whether that approach is valid is something I hope never to discover, except possibly in a context involving a word other than the name of a flower I have difficulty pronouncing while not stressed.

[Sinequanon]

Possibly it is speculated by idiots. But nonetheless the difference between fake and actual enjoyment is not trivial. One is suggesting actual resignation to the situation, whereas the other is a show meant to gain tactical advantage. Whether that approach is valid is something I hope never to discover, except possibly in a context involving a word other than the name of a flower I have difficulty pronouncing while not stressed.
Firebee, the statement I'm talking about is in the OP. The fact that it hasn't been dealt with yet, being idiotic speculation (and I don't disagree with you there) is bothering me. I credit Lion's Pride for also taking this issue to task. It's bad advice and incredibly ignorant with respect to the brutal reality of rape. There's no such thing as "pretending to enjoy it so they'll stop". There is a such thing as, compliance to lessen the chance of getting hurt worse. The gulf between those two things is so wide there can be no comparison between them.

[firebee]

I think the problem here is of different categories of what bothers us. I have a big problem with the suggestion that one should enjoy being literally raped. I also have a moderate problem with any narrow prescriptivist suggestion as to what one should do to prevent or mitigate such an occurrence. To the extent that this speculation (and it is true that it has been speculated; I recall vaguely a story of it being tried) gives the idea that there is a singular solution, I am not much for it. As a set of possible things to try in the unfortunate event, should it seem to be indicated, I am not closed to the idea and think that inventiveness (and the use of teeth) should be encouraged. And as a lead-off to discussing the idea of actual rape being something other than an act of passion, vs whatever the heck it is that rape fantasies are (which I forget at this point)... well, it's words that fill up the first post. The OP's eyeballs are safe from me, at least.

Or, more succinctly: It makes me grind my teeth but so does 90% of what everyone else says and 25% of what I say.

[Deliberator]

To me, a non-consent fantasy is about-
- Not being responsible for what occurs; it's out of your control. There is a lot of freedom in that, for a Thinker- especially, imho, for a female T.

- The idea of triggering an animalistic arousal in your partner, at a brass-tacks level that would make them break their own rules of decency to get to you. (just for pretendsies, mind you)

- focussing on particular classic aspects of the masculine/feminine power exchange- particularly masculine physical prowess/strength/testosterone.

It comes nowhere near encompassing the entire range of exchange that happens between people in an average balanced, healthy relationship- doesn't hit much on the care-taking aspects of the genders, for instance. But sometimes it's nice to hit one button without messing around with the others, if only for novelty's sake.

In my mind, there is really no essential relation in this type of fantasy to an actual rape.

Damn, you pretty much nailed it.

I've had rape fantasies for a loooooong time. They dominated when I was a teenager, but have subsided somewhat since I lost my V-card. Now they just pop up occasionally when I'm in my ovulatory phase. So annoying.

Actual rape would be horrible of course. Rather odd, that the fantasy persists nonetheless.

[thod]

Rape fantasies and combat are two different things. Lots of women have rape fantasies where the guy is some desirable hunk. What they are really fantasizing about is total submission to the other person. Once they are unable to effect the outcome they relieve themselves of responsibility and can orgasm without guilt. These fantasies dont revolve around violence, the male is more likely to be fantasied as overpowering and holding them down than striking or creating undesired pain.

[Shinqui]

Well this thread is certainly stimulating, although the ire directed at one who is considered the original poster when one involuntarily became one from administrators splitting ones comments from another thread is somewhat disconcerting. My previous comments on not wishing to argue these points come not from fear of repercussion or exposition, but mostly from a profound sense of apathy on a subject that many of you feel quite strongly about. With that said, I can not, in good conscience, continue to accept your ire without making myself clear. So, here goes thirty minutes of my life, enjoy.

The world is not a nice place, this is a given, there are many of us who at the very least will take that which they can, should they feel that they can get away with it. There are also many who are not even concerned with reprisal, rather their overwhelming selfishness, combined with a psychotic apathy towards others allow them to act in ways that we, as a society, interested in the well being of the individual, would not agree with.

As it is a mute point that most of us will encounter said people within our life times, it behooves us to prepare for the eventuality of violence, whether it occurs in the form of rape, physical assault, or even a con game. We must take responsibility for ourselves and this includes a fair amount of responsibility for what we allow to happen to us.

Should any of you wish to point out that I am male, and have not been raped, and as such am not qualified to speak to the idea of violence against another. I submit to you a life time of physical assault conveniently placed under the heading of “gay bashing” or perhaps simply a victim of those who wish to destroy anything that offends their sense of normalcy. My time on the streets in the inner cities of Canada, combined with a personality that attracts those who wish to unburden themselves of their problems, have also brought me into contact with dozens of women who have been in this type of situation, often repeatedly. Lastly, a fairly high percentage of my partners have been raped, some of them during the time that I dated them. As such, my comments should be taken to reflect the thoughts of someone with a tremendous amount of life experience, and not to simply be a regurgitation of facts that I have gathered from a few hours of web surfing.

The very first thing we should address is the concept of personal responsibility. While many of us certainly float through life, oblivious of the reactions and motivations of others, it does not bode well for those of us on this board to consider ourselves kindred spirits with this type of people. The street smarts that I mentioned before really come down to understanding that there are many people we will encounter, who should we gain the ability to see into their very souls, would repulse us completely; and that these people are watching you. Not that said people are actively searching at any given time for someone to perpetrate any type of violence against. Rather that these people have a highly developed sense of victim radar as it were and they are always ready to take advantage of any opportunities that they find.

The sad fact is that most incidents of violence against people (I’m not talking solely about rape here) are completely avoidable. This is something that is difficult to teach, it is all about being aware of your surroundings, your vulnerabilities and how to ensure that these things are not capitalized on. It’s a simple as stopping to look in a shop window when someone is following too closely, so that they pass you and you can look at them unobserved via the reflection. Or timing your bathroom breaks in a bar to coincide with your drink being empty. Or keeping your beer in your hand while dancing, I’m sure many of you will understand what I’m talking about here. It would be very difficult to list all the behaviors that one needs to take in order to avoid potentially damaging situations, rather it is a mentality that expresses itself with action, based on the situation that one allows themselves to be in.

Situations will still occur mind you, despite our best protective measures. At that point one must learn the concept of physical space and to learn to choose logically between flight or fight. When someone with aggressive intent is entering your personal space, often the time for words is over and the time for survival has started. Certainly running is a great option, and in fact, often the best one. However many times it is not an option at all and instead one must prepare ones self to deal with the coming violence. Simply put, whether male or female, no matter what type of violence, sometimes, when we are alone, and cornered and someone is aggressively entering our personal space, our only recourse is to unleash the fury inside and to destroy, rather than be destroyed. This is a survival mechanism.

When it comes to rape, there are only two things that are useful to talk about; they are how to avoid and how to survive. I have addressed the former, and now I will continue to the latter. Which is, how to survive once rape has become an inevitability. There are many survival mechanisms at your disposal, should you find yourself in this situation, and I don’t intend address them all, but here are a few.

Compliance

Simply put, if you’re going to get raped no matter what you do, it may be best to just submit. Retreat into that little walled off space in your mind and wait for it to be over. Should you have no other recourse, this will often prove more useful than futile struggles which may, in fact, bring greater harm to you.

Elimination

Should you have the training and ability, a very good option is to eliminate the threat through a judicious application of violence.

Enjoyment

What many of you seem to be forgetting here is that it is not guaranteed that one will survive the rape. Many women are left for dead, or chained in basements or any number of vile things that we don’t like to think about. Often in this type of situation, what a person wants from you is your fear. Enjoyment would be the complete opposite of fear and by not providing what your attacker wants, you may indeed be left alone, or at the very least be able to lull your attacker into a false sense of security so that you can continue with your plan of escape.

Obviously, once one gets past the ability to avoid, and instead gets to the point where one is forced to deal with the situation, a judicious application of various possible responses will be warranted. What I have written represents some, not all, of the responses one can bring to this type of situation. The application rests completely in the abilities of the victim combined with the motivations of the attacker.

As for police involvement, I suggest you take a strong dose of reality. This does not occur in any meaningful way when compared with the legions of women who are being raped daily. Sure, file your report, but don’t expect much to come out of it. Justice, in this case, would be better served with a firearm.

Twenty five to thirty three percent of the women reading this will be raped in their life time and I certainly hope that if you become one of them that you survive the ordeal.

So these are my thoughts, though certainly not exhaustive, but it is as much time as I’m willing to waste writing about such things, and I do not apologize for them. Should you still wish to attempt to take out my eyes, be assured that I will not wait for you to get to me, rather I will meet you half way, and do my best to rip your throat out, but that’s just me and my defense mechanisms for dealing with violence.

I’m awfully attached to my eyes.

Peace

[Maayan]

Words!

You know you're posting in the wrong thread (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), right? :laugh:

[PortInStorm]

From my years in the BDSM community, I've noticed it is perfectly natural to want to be dominated. It's all about control. See, trust is very important to everyone, and the level of trusted needed to even temporary let someone do whatever they want to you is more then alot of people can hope for in a relationship today.

Here's my idea of why: MASLOW'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS

Physiological, Safety, Love/Belonging, Esteem, and Self-actualization. In a fantasy rape, we have the rapee that has mentally given up control (by having it forcefully taken away in their minds) so that another can attempt to fulfill their needs. In real rape, obviously, the rapist won't fulfill these -- in a fantasy however, they actually will. And it's a very small difference. Stockholme syndrome really isn't a sickness or illness or anything bad...infact, it's probally been a key to human evolution. We want someone who can meet our needs on their own (because there will be times when we can't do it ourselves and we want a mate that can help us anywhere we need it.)
Physiological - Physical needs are met by a fantasy rapist (or dom) by providing you the sex and attention you want. Perhaps it's without religious condemation you're able to have it, or perhaps you want to fill like you've inspired someone primal need for you.
Safety - I know what you all are thinking "safety in rape?!", but it's true. Real rape isn't safe, but fantasy rapist tend to only go as far as subcontiously we allow them to. They are safe and controlled by our minds, even if they hurt us. Pain and pleasure arn't that different in terms of nerve signals. And your pain tolerance increases greatly when you are aroused. The rapist or dom is a powerful figure, powerful enough to render you helpless. They can do whatever they damn well want with you. And that's the thing, they are very powerful. We want powerful people in our lives to protect us. We all want the alpha mate that will turn hell upside down to save us.
Love/Belonging - Love and belonging are really intersting concepts when talking about rape fantasy. Instead of love, we're looking at primal lust and need for sex. We're that irrestistable to the rapist. We also have a clear role: helpless. Doesn't seem like much of a role, but in reality, it is. Quite a bit so - we are not in control at all, and have nothing to do with this rape. Ultimately, you need to zome out if you really want to see this in action. We really can't meet our needs by ourselves, dispite how much INTJs want to. There will always be those moments of uncertainty were our greatest plans won't get anywhere. That's life, or in this case, a rape fantasy. We know our role in it, and we can't escape it, and so we make peace with the choatic situation. Believe it or not, rape fantasies are often stress releif for those who have them.
Esteem - Esteem from being raped? really? Oh yes. You are beautiful and attactive enough someone went out of their way to break the law, fight through your defenses, just to get to the treasure: you. INTJs love it when people break down their defenses and earn their trust in conversations - and rape fantasies really aren't that different for most people. We want to feel charished, be the reward at the end of a long and dangerous journey. Being the victim in a rape fantasy is almost like flipping to the climax of the book where the hero conquers the villain -- and you lean back in your chair. That part of the book might only have been 2 pages, but the chase has been going on for the past 100. In a rape fantasy, the rapee was worth the chase to the rapist. The harder we are to rape, the more they have to work, and the more we feel like the reward.
Self-actualization - This is where it all comes togeather. We feel wanted and desired, have made peace with the brutality of life, we are still safe, and by this point - probally orgasming and enjoying the physical enjoyment of it. We have transended a horrible event to the point, that when the fantasy rapist leaves, we get on with our lives unaffected by it. Something that takes some very strong character according to the world around us.

And so, we have rape fantasies because they fulfill our needs.
This post and Rara Avis' describe my motivations almost to a t.

[Maayan]

Interesting. Psychological games seem to be something of a Big Thing for me, but in this particular scenario I don't think of it first. This is probably also a matter of definitions, but for me I see the physical balance of working to the limits of all of my joints, rather than something that is more internal.

Cold fear. This is a fantasy rape scene from Iain Banks's Complicity. There are better examples out there, but this will do:


"I creep closer. She stirs. I reach forward, the knife in one hand, the other glove touching then gathering and balling a fistful of duvet and then pulling it sharply, throwing it away behind me as I leap forward, seeing her pale nakedness in the same instant as I slap my hand over her mouth; her eyes open wide and she starts trying to push up; I force her back down int other bed, hand still over her mouth. I raise the knife so she can see it. She struggles, eyes widening further, but I pin her to the sheets with my weight and keep the glove firmly over her mouth even though she isn't making any noise. I rest the blade of the knife against her throat and she goes still.

"Make a noise and you're dead, understand?" I say. She seems not to hear, staring up at me. "Understand?" I say again, and this time she nods quickly. "Warning you," I tell her as I slowly take my hand away from her mouth. She doesn't call out.

I push myself up, still keeping the knife near her throat. I undo the zip on my jeans. I'm not wearing any underpants and my cock falls out, already hard. She's staring into my eyes. I see her swallow. A pulse beats at the top off her long, white neck, under her chin. Her hand is creeping to the side of the bed. I look at it, and it stops. Her eyes look terrified now. I put the blade of the knife against her neck again and look down to the edge of the mattress. She's trembling. I feel under the edge of the mattress, above the wooden frame of the huge bed. I feel a wooden handle; I pull out a ten-inch hunting knife with a serrated blade. I whistle softly, then throw it across the carpets towards the windows. She's staring at me.

"On your front," I tell her. "On your knees, like a dog. Now."

She starts to breathe raggedly, mouth open. Her whole body is trembling.

[Krazy P]

Rape is about sex to some degree. I had a professor who gave an entire lecture on human rape and evolution.

Statistically, rape is linked to anger, lust, and the ability to not get caught. The most common targets for rape are young, attractive women. If rape were only about power, then old decrepit women would be just as likely to be raped.

I agree. The conventional wisdom of rape as a "power trip" doesn't stand up under the scrutiny of rape statistics. And it doesn't make sense from an animal/specie perspective to me. If sex is the most primitive instinctual act, then one would have to look at a more biological explanation.

One that seems to fit is the idea that Beta males, frustrated in their attempts to mate, would attempt to mate by force to produce off-spring.

If you look at other animal species, you see some of these patterns.