I'll never figure out how to make friends

[SiMey]

Just sitting at home on Fri night half watching the cricket and drinking a beer or two on my own.

Always stuck with the ongoing dilemma of wanting to be with people but also not wanting to be with people.

I think I have reasonable people skills for an INTJ, yet no matter how friendly I am towards others, no matter how much small talk I initiate, I'm always on the outside. Just feeling a bit down right now but I'll be fine by tomorrow.

Like today people went out for lunch and it seemed like almost everyone and anyone was invited but me. (I enjoy lunch alone but hey, c'mon, I do exist people!).

There's two guys at work who like cricket and I involve myself in discussions where I can. They are always off doing things together, to the point where I almost feel like I gotta thrust myself into or intrude to be included.

I'm initiating conversations around the office where I can about a person's cat... dog... weekend... shoes... sport... weather... whatever interests the masses. I feel like I'm always missing something that is so obvious to everyone else and if I knew the secret I'd somehow crack the inner circle.

Today sorta brought it up once more eg where I'm told that person X doesn't get on with person Y (which is my problem as a middle manager); another manager told me a person answered the phone wrong (which is my problem despite that not being my area of responsibility); and I get asked for a myriad other things basically coz I'm efficient and get things done (so people like my help, a common INTJ thing); my boss is away so her boss comes to me for stuff etc and so on.

My view is that people just like me for my ability to do work. End of story. I'm feeling a bit fatalist again, like I should accept it and stop making an effort to fit in, conform, be sociable, when I feel like I get minimal returns for my effort.

I've been really working hard on this during my life. Today is just a big sigh day.

So I get to the point where I'll accept invites to stuff I'm only half interested in, just to have pretense of a social life... Got a golf game Sunday morning to get me out of the house.

Rant finished...

[MaleVolentworld]

SiMey

I can never talk to a manager as I can talk to a fellow non-managerial colleague. The rules are different somehow. But, if you join some sort of club there will be people that will approach you as you have a shared interested, if you get good at a certain activity people will admire you and want to be your friend. You could try things like badminton, tennis, chess, whatever.

Also, turn off the cricket, it is boring as hell and goes on for too long :)

[SiMey]

Played squash for quite a while. It's not like I haven't tried.

Just feeling down.

[dalidaisy]

I wish I could say that I understand, but I have the opposite problem, in a way. I mean, like you, I am efficient & good at my job, so people are constantly coming to me for that. But, they linger, they gossip, they pry, they small-talk me to death. If I could only make them go away! I guess the grass is always greener, huh?

On a side note, I get lonley sometimes, too. I have tons of friends & plenty to do all the time. But, I really just want someone more like me to hang with. Be careful what you wish for...

[NancyS786]

SiMey,

I understand your dilemma perfectly.

I'm 43, used to have a ton of "friends" when I was in school, but now in later life, I really just don't have many at all.

I really think it's hard to meet someone I really get along with. Someone who is WORTH being an ongoing friend with.

I'm dating recently, honestly, I think I've physically met 30-40 guys in the last few months, and there was only one that I hit it off with, he's a sorta annoying INTP..... I just don't have anything to say to "normal" people.

I was wondering, do anyone ever use this forum to get together in person? To see if us INTJ's really do get along well? Maybe we can make some friends that way.

Nancy

[jerr]

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand. Do you want to know/see more people or do you just feel lame for not seeing anyone compared to the majority?

I find that an INTJ life is often a solitary one. I have a few friends, maybe 5-6, only maybe 3 of them really get me. Those friends are invaluable I must admit, because sometimes I do want to get out, after a week or two of solitary life, I need to see some people, get out of the routine.

but I'm not interested in making friends. The truth is, I can't seem to find people that are really nice. Most people have interestes I cannot understand, or they act in an irrationnally ridiculous way. On that point alone, I'd rather have no more new friends, keep the ones I have and just go on with life knowing I'm a INTJ, knowing I'll always have issues with crowds and new contacts.

The truth is: I don't care for small talk at all, I care for deep thoughts or just plain fun with friends when I feel like it.

So which one is it? Do you want to comply with society or do you want to be yourself? (both aren't mutually exclusive)

[alphawolf]

My view is that people just like me for my ability to do work. End of story. I'm feeling a bit fatalist again, like I should accept it and stop making an effort to fit in, conform, be sociable, when I feel like I get minimal returns for my effort.


You are right. Most people don't like you. Most people don't like me, either. I am weird. Big freaking deal. I like myself. Most people really seem to like me if I smile at them. It's only when I start talking philosophy that they excuse themselves.

You don't have to conform, you just need to learn to recognize a person you can really talk to. You are probably bypassing them all the time without knowing it. Become less judgemental on people's outward appearance and you will find some really amazing friends. They might weigh 20 stone. Who cares. They are always the ones you'd never suspect.

[Noehelia]

The important questions is: Do you really want to be friends with anyone from your job SiMay? I mean, anyone particular. Is anyone compatible with you? Because it seems that you are just looking on the wrong direction. Why would you expect to be regarded as a suitable friend if yourself have not regarded anyone as special enough to be your friend?

There are people out there that will be suitable to be your friends it is just more difficult for INs to find them, especially if their environment is limited. And when you find someone don't expect him to come himself to you on his own, try to initiate a connection.

[gallihand]

This is from my experiences. And I'm not the best at this.

I would suggest looking outside of work. Supervisor-employee friendships tend to be awkward which puts you in a difficult position. I've also noticed that it seems to be easier to make friends with new groups rather than to try to change my image in groups that I've already become known for being aloof.

One thing that I haven't seen addressed yet is how often you invite other people to do things. My experience has been that its up to me to make the plans for things. Other people just don't take the initiative or just don't want to. On the minus side it means that you're usually the one with the responsibility for contacting others. On the plus it means you're in charge, you decide who can't come (the most annoying of your friends' friends), and you're doing something that YOU like to do, along with a few other benefits.

[karenk]

I wish I could say that I understand, but I have the opposite problem, in a way. I mean, like you, I am efficient & good at my job, so people are constantly coming to me for that. But, they linger, they gossip, they pry, they small-talk me to death. If I could only make them go away! I guess the grass is always greener, huh?


This is my experience. I feel I'm paid to work and not to listen to my coworkers. I thought this happened because I was INFJ and thought INTJs had an exterior that prevented this. Nice to know it happens to everyone.

[ricearoni]

So I get to the point where I'll accept invites to stuff I'm only half interested in, just to have pretense of a social life... Got a golf game Sunday morning to get me out of the house.

Damn. I know what you mean. I'm debating whether or not I should go to a softball game tonight, because I feel like I spend too many Friday nights alone. I probably won't go...I hate softball.

And yeah, sometimes I feel like there's some sort of secret handshake (or wink or whatever) that certain people do that instantly makes people want to hang out with them and be BFF with them. I really don't understand the magnetism they seem to have. I mean some of these people are really annoying...

But then maybe that's the problem? Perhaps I'm a little too judgemental? Maybe a little too uptight?

Anyway, I have noticed that the few times I've compelled a few people to persistently invite me out, they caught me in one of those rare charming/silly/devious moods. I don't know what's worked for you in the past, but maybe looking into ways you've behaved in the past may help?

[MrCynical]

I think as INTJ's we are very intimidating so no one invites us to do anything.

Most people like being around their own kind, whether it be race, gender or personality type.

For us it means being on our own.

[Sazeriel]

I understand completely. When I'm sitting at home on a Friday night, reading a book, I have that feeling to be around people and I admit, I do feel lonely. But then I know I would rather be there, submerged in a book, then out around people.

Sometimes, I crave to be popular. I'm still in school, and I am one of those people who drift. I don't have a set group of friends. The people I do tend to hang out with never invite me along places, and though I feel completely left out at times, I know I would never be able to interact with them, and to become more friendly with them. I have adopted this feeling that no one around me really understands me. I haven't gone around asking people, but I am almost certain that the only person I have ever met who is an INTJ is my father, and that's just a guess.

*Sigh* What a life.

[Tyrant Soup]

I don't think it's a matter of people not liking you. It's more to do with the fact that most INTJs tend to be extremely private people. Others feel that they are intruding on your personal space, so they tend to stay away. Just put yourself in their shoes and picture how you would respond to a mysterious person like yourself.

[daydreamer]

hope you feel better soon. i don't have a lot of friends but i'm finally to the point in my life where it doesn't matter. i don't feel the need to cultivate friendships artificially; what happens happens. my friendships (all 3 of them) took a long time to develop, but they are worth it. i wouldn't trade any of them for the chance to have more, or to feel more well -liked in a broader sense.

[LionsPride]

I would suggest looking outside of work. Supervisor-employee friendships tend to be awkward which puts you in a difficult position. I've also noticed that it seems to be easier to make friends with new groups rather than to try to change my image in groups that I've already become known for being aloof.

I agree with gallihand. For anyone who would like to meet new friends, joining an activity outside work is a good start. I find people at work have a box they fit me in and if I wanted to have a friendship, I'd have to change their perceptions before I could start a friendship. That takes a lot of work and the friend/ business thing is hard for me to maintain.

I've met people through volunteer activities, joining teams, and going to events relating to hobbies of mine. If a person is very introverted, I recommend joining a team as it doesn't require being the first to make contact and your acceptance by the group is faster. Get the most out of your activities by getting yourself invited to places where there will be new people (team member has house party with non-team friends there too). It's a good way to sift through many people to find that one new person who makes you happy to chat with.

You'll also find that once you have a social life, you'll have more to talk about at the office and won't feel like an odd duck as much.

[karenk]

I agree with gallihand. For anyone who would like to meet new friends, joining an activity outside work is a good start. I find people at work have a box they fit me in and if I wanted to have a friendship, I'd have to change their perceptions before I could start a friendship. That takes a lot of work and the friend/ business thing is hard for me to maintain.

Yes and if you make friends at work they'll expect more from you at work too. (More chit-chat, carpooling, lunches...) I try not to make friends at work and people expect this from me anyway. It gets awkward.

[llBradll]

I don't deter people at work or anything, but I feel that they are attached to me mostly because I know what I'm doing and they see me as a leader even though I'm in the same position as them.
My co-workers have recently started talking to me about what they're doing and thats a step in the right direction but I still feel wierd not knowing how to make a connection. On the other hand most people don't interest me so I probably don't really make them feel comfortable.

[Perf]

Well SiMey, I have a few points:

1) Acceptance: Yes, it's true, you will probably have to accept that a lot of what you mention as problems for you are probably just part of your personality, at least as it's laid out in MBTI. Work = Force x Distance, and in your case you're putting a lot of force into it but not getting very far, which means it's not working very well (side note: this is about as close as I can come to feeding Monte). Right now, you're stuck in small talk land, and as you can see it's not a very fun place to be.

2) Renewal: If you want to get out of your rut and become a more interesting person to other people you would actually want to talk to, I have two words for you: Sell Yourself. No, I'm not pimping you out, I'm just saying that you need to try some different things, get yourself involved in social or asocial activities you really want to do, and a wide variety of them as well. That way, you are making yourself feel better and you also will have topics of your own choosing to talk about with interested parties. If golf is actually something that appeals to you, that's great.

For myself, I'm working towards taking new courses that will lead me to a new career, I'm getting my teeth fixed, I might even finally learn how to play guitar. I decided after a bit of soul-searching that I want to invest in myself for the next few years. As I learn all of this stuff, my confidence will grow and I will likely meet new, like-minded people just because I appear more positive and active.

If you approach your situation wanting to learn about the causes, rather than just the symptoms, of feeling like shit, you'll probably have more success.

[Cairech]

Some unasked for advice: Go and do things you find interesting. It is OK to go by yourself (as long as it's safe to do alone - perhaps no bungee jumping alone, OK?)

If you do this, you will not be bored and your brain will love you. And that's more important than anything else, right?

[VinceVanGo]

... Always stuck with the ongoing dilemma of wanting to be with people but also not wanting to be with people. ...

I can totally relate. Ive spent the past three weekends by myself--some days not speaking to another person a single time. I know that is just where my head is right now, so I try not to beat myself up over it.

Anyhow, I used to feel the same as you regarding work. Then I quit one job and my boss said, "I'm really going to miss you. I can't believe you're leaving." I emailed her for a reference a few months later and she again said that she missed me. Who knew?

Then I left another job couple of years later, and a woman I worked fairly closely with said, "I love you!" and I could tell she really did care about me. We've gone out for dinner/drinks a few times since I left. When I worked with her I focused so much on how f-ed up the place was and how she was so hung up on the old way of doing things, etc. I just didn't focus on what nice things were there, including this really wonderful person with whom I love to talk and hang out.

My point is that you may be assuming, as was I, that there are no connections for you at work. The reality may be that you just don't realize the connections are there, and therefore don't take advantage of them. I think because we INTJs don't pick up on social cues very well that we don't always notice when someone has a connection with us.

However, the flip-side of that is that we have to actually nurture those relationships. If we want people to be there when we want companionship we have to maintain the relationship, hence the dilemma to which you refer. I've kind of accepted that and tried to enjoy as much as I can. I offer some info about me, i.e. what movies I've seen, concerts I've gone to--just open myself up a bit so that people get a little more from me and I from them in return.

[SiMey]

So many response and thoughts; so much to respond to. Thanks all!


May I start by saying I’m absolutely fine again. I go through 3 maybe 4 days per year where I feel really down and then I just go with it and feel as bad as I can, to get it out of my system. This forum is a good place to offload and admit things I wouldn’t to another person’s face. Plus there’s lots of INTJs here!

I wish I could say that I understand, but I have the opposite problem, people are constantly coming to me for that. But, they linger, they gossip, they pry, they small-talk me to death. If I could only make them go away!

I sort of have that. There is one person who corners people at work and doesn’t actually have a conversation but likes to show you how much she knows. We talked a bit about Obama, which led to her telling me George Bush never even had a passport before he was prez, then she’s telling me the history of the middle east conflict!

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand. Do you want to know/see more people or do you just feel lame for not seeing anyone compared to the majority?

I find that an INTJ life is often a solitary one. I must admit, sometimes I do want to get out, after a week or two of solitary life, I need to see some people, get out of the routine.

So which one is it? Do you want to comply with society or do you want to be yourself? (both aren't mutually exclusive)

That day I was feeling down. It was a case of having several weekends of solitary life and then events of the day just contributing to me feeling like the outcast that I am (and am usually fine with being).

You are right. Most people don't like you. Most people don't like me, either. I am weird. Big freaking deal. I like myself.

Become less judgemental on people's outward appearance and you will find some really amazing friends. They are always the ones you'd never suspect.

Yes I like being me and it is no freaking deal. The people I do hang with are never the beautiful popular people. I tend to look for the weird looking person who is not socialising to start talking to.

The important questions is: Do you really want to be friends with anyone from your job SiMay? I mean, anyone particular. Is anyone compatible with you?

I don’t want them to be dropping over my house unannounced or anything. However maybe once every 3 months or so, it would at least be nice to be asked, included, in something that half the bloody office seemed to be invited to.

I would suggest looking outside of work. Supervisor-employee friendships tend to be awkward which puts you in a difficult position.

One thing that I haven't seen addressed yet is how often you invite other people to do things. My experience has been that its up to me to make the plans for things.

There are probably two people who I could connect with, however as one is the opposite gender and I am her supervisor I recognise that is not realistic. The other dude always comes and hangs around near me at morning tea. When he first started, he was milling around on his own, so I invited him into my safe corner. He is an IT dude so I think we both like being near but not in the middle of things.

It takes a lot of courage for me to invite anyone out. I don’t do it enough, but it is really hard for me. (The INTJ fear of rejection?)

I did invite one of the bloke who talk sport out for lunch once (and he is not from my section so we don’t have a supervisor/employee relationship). I didn’t think I completely bored him that day but there’s never been a return invite. That’s fine, move on, look elsewhere. I can’t invite him out twice, even though I suspect he wouldn’t say no if I did try again.

I understand completely. When I'm sitting at home on a Friday night, reading a book, I have that feeling to be around people and I admit, I do feel lonely. But then I know I would rather be there, submerged in a book, then out around people.

Damn. I know what you mean. I'm debating whether or not I should go to a softball game tonight, because I feel like I spend too many Friday nights alone. I probably won't go...I hate softball.


Exactly! Being unhappy coz you haven’t gone out but knowing that if you do go out it’s a compromise and you might be unhappy anyway. I want to have my cake and to eat it too, dammit!

And yeah, sometimes I feel like there's some sort of secret handshake (or wink or whatever) that certain people do that instantly makes people want to hang out with them and be BFF with them.

I wish I knew what the secret handshake was, but it’s just the other personalities doing what comes effortlessly for them. Sort of like one of us seeing the way to make something more efficient in about 3 seconds and then having to wait for the others to discuss it for 30 mins to reach the same conclusion.

I don't think it's a matter of people not liking you. It's more to do with the fact that most INTJs tend to be extremely private people. Picture how you would respond to a mysterious person like yourself.

I go talk to those types.

1) Acceptance: Yes, it's true, you will probably have to accept that a lot of what you mention as problems for you are probably just part of your personality. Right now, you're stuck in small talk land, and as you can see it's not a very fun place to be.

Yes, on normal days I practice lots of acceptance of who I am and what life is like for someone like me. It’s just disappointing when I try to learn the social rituals and initiate some small talk, thinking that may lead to at least some modicum of friendship. Maybe I’m doing it wrong and in their heads they are thinking “when will this guy shut up and go away!”

2) Sell Yourself. No, I'm not pimping you out, I'm just saying that you need to try some different things, get yourself involved in social or asocial activities you really want to do, and a wide variety of them as well.

Yes, it just takes so much effort and I don’t always have the energy. It’s the case of put yourself out often enough and even if you have a 3% chance of success, eventually you will succeed. The return on effort is so small it is draining.

I can totally relate. I’ve spent the past three weekends by myself--some days not speaking to another person a single time. Then I left another job couple of years later, and a woman I worked fairly closely with said, "I love you!" and I could tell she really did care about me.

The reality may be that you just don't realize the connections are there, and therefore don't take advantage of them. I think because we INTJs don't pick up on social cues very well that we don't always notice when someone has a connection with us.

This is pretty much what my wife observes. She says whenever she meets people I have worked with, they tell her how much they like me. She says that she has met people who I have never even mentioned to her and they talk to her like they think they are one of my friends.
It would be either not noticing the connection, or being too socially fearful to act on it, so I end up in a self defeating spiral. Alternately, other people have a different much broader definition of what a friend is, whereas I’d see these people as acquaintances.

I offer some info about me, i.e. what movies I've seen, concerts I've gone to--just open myself up a bit so that people get a little more from me and I from them in return.

Yep so back to the beginning… small talk. I try! I really really do!!

Anyway, I’m over it now and fine. People at work can go and socialise without me again and I won’t care.

[Dominguez]

but I'm not interested in making friends. The truth is, I can't seem to find people that are really nice. Most people have interestes I cannot understand, or they act in an irrationnally ridiculous way. On that point alone, I'd rather have no more new friends, keep the ones I have and just go on with life knowing I'm a INTJ, knowing I'll always have issues with crowds and new contacts.

The truth is: I don't care for small talk at all, I care for deep thoughts or just plain fun with friends when I feel like it.



i agree with jerr. i get along best with people who i feel comfortable with, where i don't have to be on my toes about what i say to them, where i can be perfectly at ease and not have them asking if i'm ok. if i feel at ease, can have in-depth conversation (although not always necessary) and have a good time ie both of us having a good/matching sense of humor, then we're good.

[brainysmurf]

I'm initiating conversations around the office where I can about a person's cat... dog... weekend... shoes... sport... weather... whatever interests the masses. I feel like I'm always missing something that is so obvious to everyone else and if I knew the secret I'd somehow crack the inner circle.


That sounds as if you're be trying too hard. Aren't there any other places you could make friends (e.g. sport clubs)?

[Estelore]

I wonder if anybody else here suffers my lovely affliction:
I am the friend, counselor, shoulder-to-cry-on, guide-and-guardian, and/or object-of-one-sided-and-badly-misplaced-affection for everybody in my immediate vicinity. Since I invariably love all of these people in a rather sisterly or motherly way, I am stuck being the very-best-friend-forever of some rather annoying people. Worse, they come to me for everything they need emotionally and spiritually to fix their effed-up little lives, and they drain my time and energy. I love them and I love to be able help them, but I loathe to have to help them just because nobody else will be there for them.

Of all the people near me, there are maybe seven people that I genuinely consider MY best friends, closer to me than anyone else on the planet.
Five of them are online people that I've never met in person.

Essentially, I have all the friends I can ever want, and MORE than I want, but scarcely a handful of them have the slightest clue who I really am. Even so, no matter who it is who takes up my offer of friendship, I am invariably the best and most sincerely loving friend they will ever have.

[Rohsiph]

Just put yourself in their shoes and picture how you would respond to a mysterious person like yourself.

This struck a chord with me. I note I may be too tired to effectively share the effect of this chord-striking, but I feel compelled to try.

I have to say I feel kindred with SiMey's plight, to the extent that periods of this sort of 'depression' or 'sigh' only emerge infrequently--to the point that I know full well such moods evaporate.

But this idea inserted as something of an advice to possibly explain the rationale of the 'other side of the fence'--I have to assert, and strongly, this: Why should anyone consider any one of us mysterious?

Because we tend to be private? Yet, surely, the majority of these other people have some private spaces in their own lives, right? Because we 'intimidate'? But it's one thing to make this claim without explaining anything beside it--are any of us sure that this is true, or is it just as likely as any time we witness 'someone being intimidated by an INTJ' it's actually the case the INTJ, I don't know, has a piece of licorice stuck in his/her teeth and it would be really awkward to say anything.

Or maybe we are mysterious because we like pondering, and dislike eating so many simple answers. Is this mysterious to the non-INTJ? The desire to question, and to remain skeptical of convenient answers?

In any case, I think what shot me off on my rant is the presumption that when we get in a mood like SiMey we don't already--instinctively--try to put ourselves in everyone else's shoes to figure out a solution. That, in fact, the conclusion I am drawn to at this moment as far as "INTJ mysteriousness" is that what makes us so mysterious is everyone else's lacking of putting themselves in our shoes.

[Noehelia]

I don’t want them to be dropping over my house unannounced or anything. However maybe once every 3 months or so, it would at least be nice to be asked, included, in something that half the bloody office seemed to be invited to.



There you say it yourself. You do not want to be friends with these people, open up to them, hang up with them. They are doing all this social buzzing 90% of their time and you want to do it 5% of your time. The problem is that they can not know when you have the mood to do it. I imagine that they do invite you sometimes but you notice the times that you would like to and they don't invite you. Plus, when people see that you are so close, they will lessen and lessen their invitations because they do not like to be rejected themselves. You are projecting a loud and clear signal "I prefer being alone".

However I would like to say that all this that you are talking about is not about friendship. The incidents that you mentioned are in the context of acquaintances. As introverted however it is not easy for us to do that but most importantly it is not desirable. I have come in terms with it myself. I realized that although I was dreaming younger that I would have lots of friends and acquaintances to hang about I did not really enjoyed it. So I focused my interest in few stronger friend relationships.

[SiMey]

That sounds as if you're be trying too hard.

I hear what you are saying but don't think so. I was just saying that, for an INTJ, I felt I was making some effort to join in and relate to the others. It's not like I'm always giving off signals that I'm unwilling to socialise.

I find it important at work to try to balance out just talking to people about work with general chit chat. I find this makes them feel more at ease and makes work more efficient and makes me more approachable, at least about work-related issues.

My description of what I do at work just sounds like trying too hard, as I was in a funk that day, but I was just trying to emphasise that I don't sit in the corner and wonder why no one approaches me. I try to meet people half way and listen to stories about their pets, kids or whatever.

I wonder if anybody else here suffers my lovely affliction:
I am the friend, counselor, shoulder-to-cry-on, guide-and-guardian, and/or object-of-one-sided-and-badly-misplaced-affection for everybody in my immediate vicinity. Since I invariably love all of these people in a rather sisterly or motherly way, I am stuck being the very-best-friend-forever of some rather annoying people... and they drain my time and energy.

Are you surrounding yourself with psychic vampires?

I love them and I love to be able help them, but I loathe to have to help them just because nobody else will be there for them.

I think you are collecting wounded sheep for your own benefit despite how draining it is. Tell me what you get out of these relationships?

Essentially, I have all the friends I can ever want, and MORE than I want, but scarcely a handful of them have the slightest clue who I really am. Even so, no matter who it is who takes up my offer of friendship, I am invariably the best and most sincerely loving friend they will ever have.

I'd query whether you are having very one sided relationships. I used to fall into this sort of trap more as a younger person, by spending a lot of my energy on helping others, but not getting the same in return.

I have to say I feel kindred with SiMey's plight, to the extent that periods of this sort of 'depression' or 'sigh' only emerge infrequently--to the point that I know full well such moods evaporate.

Yep knowing that the moods will pass, I am more than happy to go with them, experience the down as fully as a I can which gets it right out of my system. My "woe is me" rant helped to get it out and I'll be "happy as Larry" for ages now.

The conclusion I am drawn to at this moment as far as "INTJ mysteriousness" is that what makes us so mysterious is everyone else's lacking of putting themselves in our shoes.

I was hanging out with a bunch of others Introverts who were discussing going out to the work lunch/functions... and them seeing it as a general waste of money. One guy said he'd rather spend his money on something tangible like DnD minis. I suggested that most people cannot even begin to comprehend why you might think that spending $30 on a meal you eat in 5 minutes is a waste of money yet spending $30 on little toys is of greater value to you. They cannot put themselves in another person's shoes who has a completely different value base, it is generally alien to others.

They are doing all this social buzzing 90% of their time and you want to do it 5% of your time. The problem is that they can not know when you have the mood to do it...You are projecting a loud and clear signal "I prefer being alone".

Yep, I must be giving off these signals and totally agree it is unfair to expect others to be able to spot the 1 time out of 10 I might feel like getting out of the office with others.

However I would like to say that all this that you are talking about is not about friendship. The incidents that you mentioned are in the context of acquaintances.

So in effect I've put the wrong title on this thread. Perhaps it's about the difficulty of wanting on the odd occasion to hang out with a few acquaintances but then not wanting people in my back pocket either.

So I focused my interest in few stronger friend relationships.

Yep, it is these areas where the effort should be placed. Still, you can't blame me for wanting to just be one of the masses every once in a while.

[Noehelia]

Actually I do blame you ;)

Because you are hurting yourself unjustifiable. It's like you want to feel depressed and you just pick a reason that doesn't make sense and use it to feel bad. You do not focus on the issue in a productive way.

From what you have written so far I do not think that you are an unsociable, dysfunctional person who can not interact sociably with his world around him.

You felt lonely lately, why? Do you think that if you had 2-3 close friends with whom you spend any amount of spare time that you wanted, would you ever had this kind of thoughts, that you are not picked by acquaintances for lunch?
I mean, you do not really care for that. Because if you really cared you would not send the signals you are sending (there are people that do send wrong or mixed-up signals but as I said I do not think that you are one of them).

So instead of just falling to bad mood for reasons that do not stand find which are the real reasons and try to fix them.

Now, if you want to discuss why you do not have friends, that's another matter.

[SiMey]

There's a simple reason why I have no friends. I'm an INTJ!

[Noehelia]

There's a simple reason why I have no friends. I'm an INTJ!

Well, there are INTJs that have friends. My boyfriend for example has one of the most admirable circle of friends in my eyes, I envy him for that. They go out and start discussing whatever philosophical, political, religious thing that have caught their attention lately.

I have only once in my life found a girl that can talk with me interesting stuff and she lives in a different country (we had became friends when I lived there for a year).

It is not easy for INs to find suitable friends, that is their biggest problem, the scarcity. And then their natural introversion makes it more difficult to recognize those suitable (if they come across them) and do a move towards them. That is a matter of behavior that you are accounted for and you can try to modify it but you are not accounted for the scarcity of suitable friends in your environment.

[elsdfr]

i.e. what movies I've seen, concerts I've gone to--just open myself up a bit so that people get a little more from me and I from them in return.

I'd agree with this as I think most people need to see you have some kind of vulnerability in order for them to be able to connect and share. That is if you can't on a normal basis.

If you're their boss or someone in their workplace who isn't quite "in the circle" then there's not much chance. They probably know what you're like not much will change that. Best is just to be yourself and hope to fit in that way.

To be honest I don't think I've ever been "in the circle" so I'm not sure why I'm trying to offer advice but I do understand as it can be frustrating when you... care.

[mutebim]

why do you need friends?

[smashy]

I guess people relate to each other by two ways (and the most you have this, more people will like you):

- By being emphatic, this means being in the present moment, analyse it quickly and say things that relate to that moment. Of course this means saying a lot of small talk and common sense things,
- By showing emotions: if you can do the above and show your emotions, showing you're vulnerable and human, people will relate to you easily.

Sales people do the above things all the time. And that's why for us INTJ's it's difficult to make friends, because we hate small talk and saying the obvious and we also don't show emotions. So it seems to other people most of the time that we are not empthatic and we have no emotions. And then, of course, there are the few people in our lifes that really understand us like we are, know how to relate to us and like us for what we are. This is what I call friends, the others I don't even care about.

[elsdfr]

why do you need friends?

Why do you get up in the morning?

[mutebim]

Why do you get up in the morning?

I get up in the morning to work for a better future.

[Samoan Corleone]

Just sitting at home on Fri night half watching the cricket and drinking a beer or two on my own.

Some of the best nights of my life have been when I've been by myself at home with a few drinks in the fridge, watching movies and cooking myself dinner. I still live with my parents so that only happens when they're out.

[elsdfr]

Having friends in an office place is up to you. I mean it doesn't have to be done but in my experience it's an easier/better place to be when you have some or are at least in the know and I guess it's why the OP was asking.

[SiMey]

Well, there are INTJs that have friends. My boyfriend for example...

Hmm perhaps INFPs don't detect INTJ humour well.

I'd agree with this as I think most people need to see you have some kind of vulnerability in order for them to be able to connect and share. That is if you can't on a normal basis.

Yeah well that is what seems to attract some connection on a forum, discussing a period of vulnerability.

To be honest I don't think I've ever been "in the circle" so I'm not sure why I'm trying to offer advice but I do understand as it can be frustrating when you... care.

All advice and suggestions are appreciated.

I guess people relate to each other by two ways ... say things that relate to that moment. Of course this means saying a lot of small talk and common sense things...we hate small talk and saying the obvious and we also don't show emotions.

Stating the obvious sounds like a conversation with my mother in law. I can't remember what I said to her but it was so obvious that I'm sure she just enjoys the noise. Dinner time conversation was about the fish and chips she bought somewhere and how it was no good. This isn't an off hand comment, you get the detail on the amount of chips, quality of fish, how much it cost where they ate it etc etc. She's so funny.

There are the few people in our life that really understand us like we are, know how to relate to us and like us for what we are. This is what I call friends, the others I don't even care about.

Hence my comment that its hard to make friends. I can make acquaintances. As a younger fella I might not have cared but I try to be a bit more balanced and considerate of the differences in others.

Some of the best nights of my life have been when I've been by myself at home with a few drinks in the fridge, watching movies and cooking myself dinner. I still live with my parents so that only happens when they're out.

Agreed! Treasure the moments for they are gold. Still, I wouldn't want that for every night unto eternity, even if I enjoy being alone a lot.

[Samoan Corleone]

Most of the friends that I have now are from my childhood and high school. Surely you have friends from back in the day?

[Noehelia]

Hmm perhaps INFPs don't detect INTJ humour well.



I wasn't sure if you were joking but I have the tendency to reply seriously in jokes anyway.

[SiMey]

Most of the friends that I have now are from my childhood and high school. Surely you have friends from back in the day?

I must clarify that I do have friends. I was just down on the day.

One I have known since primary school and I have recently re-connected with a friend from primary/high school.

I still think I have a limited ability to make new friends. It just comes so easily to the other types.

[elsdfr]

Be friendly and kind. Talk about things they like and offer information about yourself without appearing pretentious or obnoxious.