If a male is shy, does it change the rules? [Archive]

karenk

01-20-2009, 10:06 PM

Zombicide

01-20-2009, 10:24 PM

Although I'd still be cynical of that person, yes, I prefer it when the female takes the initiative, I'm not necessarily interested in making new connections, so she'd basically have to be the one. If there's no initiative from her, I'd just allow the regular type of friendship to drag out infinitely. This is how it is every time, and I'm content with that, granted I now hate most of those initiators. If they're interested, they initiate it, there's no need to let down my guard. The most initiation I'll care to put forth is allusion when it seems appropriate enough. For the female to initiate, I guess it's kind of a turn on actually. . .sorta. . .even if that does imply that I come off as a confident/stupid asshole seeing as those are things women are attracted to. . .that said, I'm not sure I even want them to be interested.

wotsamattaU

01-20-2009, 10:24 PM

What I'm wondering is: if you know the male is shy, do the females here make an exception?

Short answer, Yes. :)

Do shy males still initiate if the interest is strong enough?

Only if they are near 100% that the interest is mutual and also certain the female won't take the matter into her own hands. It is a last ditch effort, one they would rather not have to make.

Would they dislike a female initiating even more because of their shyness?

Dislike? Hell no, they long for it! (generally speaking)

Maybe they would be uncomfortable thinking of a way to say no or they would feel overwhelmed. I'm referring to quite a high level of shyness.

They would much prefer you taking the lead than having to do it themselves. It's a matter of feeling like a fish out of water. Odds are if they need to reject someone, it will be done gently. Either that or they will do the disappearing act. Some will try to dissuade by pretending they have just met you for the very first time.

It's a matter of acceptance, or evasion...and evasion often means you have struck an emotional cord they are not ready or willing to deal with. Persistence can be key if you sense mutual connection.

Good luck. You could be waiting forever to find out, otherwise.

Vagrant

01-20-2009, 11:55 PM

FYI, I speak from firsthand experience because I am one of these shy males.

Do shy males still initiate if the interest is strong enough? Would they dislike a female initiating even more because of their shyness?I will initiate if interest is strong enough -- but only if I can recognize she's interested back. Too often have I seen a flirty girl who I like, but can't tell whether she's genuinely interested in me or not, so I don't bother. I'm fairly sure I've lost a lot of potential girlfriends that way.

And on the contrary, I would absolutely love a female initiating the conversation/relationship/whatever. It's one of those things I wish happened more often. It just doesn't happen much, due to societal expectations and that women are given a "get out of jail free" card for not starting the relationship.

JohnDoe

01-21-2009, 12:56 AM

I get asked out more often then I ask people out (sample size: reasonable). You have my permission to ask out people your interested in. Overt flirting may also work, but doesn't always, especially if your a flirty person normally.

Pandemonium

01-21-2009, 02:23 AM

I have had a few girls make the first move and I am hardly a shy person.

darkeldar88

01-21-2009, 02:31 AM

Wish I had girls making the 1st move on me :(

Pandemonium

01-21-2009, 02:56 AM

Wish I had girls making the 1st move on me :(

That reminds me what one of my friends said to me the other day. He stated if your learn mandarin and speak it well, travel to Taiwan or China and you will get numerous marriage proposals.

alphawolf

01-21-2009, 03:02 AM

What I'm wondering is: if you know the male is shy, do the females here make an exception? Do shy males still initiate if the interest is strong enough? Would they dislike a female initiating even more because of their shyness? Maybe they would be uncomfortable thinking of a way to say no or they would feel overwhelmed. I'm referring to quite a high level of shyness.

Shyness, especially romantic shyness, is a mental disorder; this has nothing to do with being introverted. And the stronger the shyness, the stronger the disorder. It is all about internal shame and a fear of happiness. Once you can identify and release your shame, shyness will disappear.

What is a man going to do if a woman he really likes makes an exception for him? He is going to become dependent on her. He is going to fear that he can not possibly find another like her. He is going to fear losing her at all costs. The more he like's her, the more powerful the fear.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate . Hate leads to suffering.

In practice, it leads to jealousy, insecurity, controlling, addictions, violence, divorce...

In my opinion, women should not make an exception for romantically shy men. Don't give them advice on how to unlock your box, either. If they can't figure it out how to use the key, then they simply do not gain entrance.

Soobpar

01-21-2009, 03:27 AM

Shyness, especially romantic shyness, is a mental disorder; this has nothing to do with being introverted. And the stronger the shyness, the stronger the disorder. It is all about internal shame and a fear of happiness. Once you can identify and release your shame, shyness will disappear.

What is a man going to do if a woman he really likes makes an exception for him? He is going to become dependent on her. He is going to fear that he can not possibly find another like her. He is going to fear losing her at all costs. The more he like's her, the more powerful the fear.

In practice, it leads to jealousy, insecurity, controlling, addictions, violence, divorce...

In my opinion, women should not make an exception for romantically shy men. Don't give them advice on how to unlock your box, either. If they can't figure it out how to use the key, then they simply do not gain entrance.

You can't be serious. Shyness is NOT a mental disorder, it's simply what happens when you lack the experience and social skills to know how to properly handle and interpret a situation. There's a world of difference between shyness and social anxiety.

seoa

01-21-2009, 03:43 AM

I have a natural instinct to be the initiator when I'm interested in someone... I think my natural inclination is basically poor social skills.

Do shy males still initiate if the interest is strong enough?

Would they dislike a female initiating even more because of their shyness?

the basic truth is - the kind of relationship you initiate is *exactly* the kind of relationship you will end up with...!

if you want to permanently take the role of initiator, then sure, go ahead and set things up that way...

the problem is, that in these feminist days, many women are going after what they want in relationships (which is a good thing in terms of career, property, education, etc) and then once they have it, they more often than not, find out that they'd quite like to modify it a bit...

for me, i know that i would only settle down with a guy who will take the initiative with his career, with our children, with the direction that our lives will take... i just couldn't be long-term attracted to a passive, reactive guy, who just wanted to follow... so for me, it's really important that any serious relationship starts with *him* doing the pursuing...

coz a relationship is not like a career... relationships involve 2 people with gender differences (assuming it's a guy/girl relationship, obviously!) - and to ignore those gender differences is illogical...

personally, i think it's ok (and essential) to be very open to the guy... to make it as unambiguous as possible that you are interested... to be positive about any social thingummies he might suggest (not saying you have to say 'yes' to everything - coz we have busy & interesting lives, don't we ladies - but saying 'sorry i'm already busy' in a way that makes it clear you'd love to go if you were free is good...)

but it's up to him to set the speed of things, in context of the above... i do think it's broadly true that a guy who is properly interested will do something about it, if he knows the girl will say yes if he asks...

it does take a lot of social confidence to do the 'open & unambiguous' thing while waiting for the guy to decide if he's interested...

at most, i'd maybe take the 'unambiguous' thing to actual words: is this friendship likely to ever move to the next level, because i would be ok with that (or words to that effect), but after that ONE move to correct any potential misunderstandings (and to protect your heart if he's definitely un-interested - it can be better to know earlier, than to keep hoping!), anything further would have to be his initiative... because a relationship is more than just the 'how does it start' - it's also the what happens in the first 2 weeks (especially after that excrutiating first date!)... what happens at the one-month stage... how /when /why you meet each other's friends & family... the first holiday you go on together...

and the sad truth is, if the girl initiates all of those milestones, many guys will just go along for the ride, and far too much time will have passed until she realises he was never that into her...

Aurelia

01-21-2009, 04:01 AM

I have a natural instinct to be the initiator when I'm interested in someone. It's because if I'm interested I become poor at reading the person, so I want to just be straight-forward. However, I see how it makes sense not to do this, so I stop myself. I think my natural inclination is basically poor social skills. (It's extremely rare that I'm interested in someone enough to have this inclination, so it's hardly been relevant at all.)

What I'm wondering is: if you know the male is shy, do the females here make an exception? Do shy males still initiate if the interest is strong enough? Would they dislike a female initiating even more because of their shyness? Maybe they would be uncomfortable thinking of a way to say no or they would feel overwhelmed. I'm referring to quite a high level of shyness.

My husband was extremely shy when we first met. In his own way he let me know that he was interested and I responded. I made it a point to show him that I was interested and he was not turned off in any way.

the basic truth is - the kind of relationship you initiate is *exactly* the kind of relationship you will end up with...!

if you want to permanently take the role of initiator, then sure, go ahead and set things up that way....

for me, i know that i would only settle down with a guy who will take the initiative with his career, with our children, with the direction that our lives will take... i just couldn't be long-term attracted to a passive, reactive guy, who just wanted to follow... so for me, it's really important that any serious relationship starts with *him* doing the pursuing...

Though I was more aggressive things at first, my husband quickly showed a different side to him after we began dating. Perhaps my experience does not represent what most women experience with shy men but my husband is both introverted yet displays initiative (just not when we first began dating). He's a medical student at a top ranked school, has definite ideas about our future together as far as children are concerned etc. In some ways he can be passive but in other ways he is not.

Rudy

01-21-2009, 05:16 AM

for me, i know that i would only settle down with a guy who will take the initiative with his career, with our children, with the direction that our lives will take... i just couldn't be long-term attracted to a passive, reactive guy, who just wanted to follow... so for me, it's really important that any serious relationship starts with *him* doing the pursuing...

If that's the way you like it, that's perfectly fine, but don't go assuming that applies to all women. Unless some of my female friends have been lying to be, though not many women want a passive guy, per se, many of them do want a relationship of complete equals, where they each are capable of taking the lead sometimes, and following at other times.

For me, shyness is a protection from rejection, and nothing more. As others have said, once I'm pretty darn sure I'm not going to be rejected, I no longer have a problem with shyness. So, I second the advice brought by others to give a clear and unambiguous sign of your interest. Flirting is not sufficient for this, especially with INTJ guys.

alphawolf

01-21-2009, 05:37 AM

You can't be serious. Shyness is NOT a mental disorder, it's simply what happens when you lack the experience and social skills to know how to properly handle and interpret a situation. There's a world of difference between shyness and social anxiety.

I don't like to be around large groups of people because it stresses me out. It is too much flutter, commotion, noise, constant change. I can't think straight, and I am a thinker by my nature.

But if I my deepest desire is a beautiful, intelligent woman with a great personality, and I freeze up when I get near her, then there is definitely a mental disorder - I am not able to take a confident risk to ask and try to fulfill my greatest desires, because of shame and fear. Ashamed of what? Afraid of what? The shame and fear is something that I have unconsciously learned and taken in as a coping mechanism at some point(s) in my life, to protect myself from some sort of abuse (physical or emotional).

I live in my head, I intuitively understand things that most people can't (even if I can't explain them clearly), I analyze everything, I have very strong opinions about things which are clear to me, about what is right and wrong. That is my basic personality. That combination does not mean that I should be frustrated due to being unable to ask for what I want and know that I deserve. That combination of rough personality traits, that label (INxJ), does not give me a license to disassociate myself from my dysfunctions.

In the end, if you are not able to take enough many risks to finally fulfill your deepest desires at all in a lasting and happy way, and you don't believe that you have any problem, then your ego has likely become fragmented and disassociated.

You know you want her, and you are beautiful and good, too. Go and ask her to dance with you, and when one finally says yes, then dance with her like nobody is watching. Or be unhappy. Or believe your own lies and do without what you want. Somebody else will take her.

alphawolf added to this post, 11 minutes and 23 seconds later...

For me, shyness is a protection from rejection, and nothing more.

That is a shallow disassociation from a deep problem. From where do you think this fear of rejection comes? Are you somehow inadequate? Is it really true, or just perceived?

There was a young girl, whos heart was a frown
cause she was crippled for life,
And she couldnt speak a sound
And she wished and prayed she could stop living,
So she decided to die
She drew her wheelchair to the edge of the shore
And to her legs she smiled you wont hurt me no more
But then a sight she'd never seen made her jump and say
Look a golden winged ship is passing my way

And it really didnt have to stop, it just kept on going...

And so castles made of sand slips into the sea, eventually

MaleVolentworld

01-21-2009, 05:45 AM

If a male is shy and you are interested, you have to wear a mini skirt, sit on his lap and pout your lips. That should work, test it out on me to make sure.

Josephine1012

01-21-2009, 05:52 AM

the basic truth is - the kind of relationship you initiate is *exactly* the kind of relationship you will end up with...!

if you want to permanently take the role of initiator, then sure, go ahead and set things up that way...

I think this is a great post in all its entirety, but I wanted to quote what I consider the heart of the matter. Everything we do, in some way, characterizes who we are. So a man who is refusing to go after something he really wants doesn't elicit any positive feelings in me. On the other hand, if he doesn't particlularly want you, why bother? This is, of course, my personal preference in a partner, so it will vary from person to person.

I don't like to be around large groups of people because it stresses me out. It is too much flutter, commotion, noise, constant change. I can't think straight, and I am a thinker by my nature.

But if I my deepest desire is a beautiful, intelligent woman with a great personality, and I freeze up when I get near her, then there is definitely a mental disorder - I am not able to take a confident risk to ask and try to fulfill my greatest desires, because of shame and fear. Ashamed of what? Afraid of what? The shame and fear is something that I have unconsciously learned and taken in as a coping mechanism at some point(s) in my life, to protect myself from some sort of abuse (physical or emotional).

I live in my head, I intuitively understand things that most people can't (even if I can't explain them clearly), I analyze everything, I have very strong opinions about things which are clear to me, about what is right and wrong. That is my basic personality. That combination does not mean that I should be frustrated due to being unable to ask for what I want and know that I deserve. That combination of rough personality traits, that label (INxJ), does not give me a license to disassociate myself from my dysfunctions.

In the end, if you are not able to take enough many risks to finally fulfill your deepest desires at all in a lasting and happy way, and you don't believe that you have any problem, then your ego has likely become fragmented and disassociated.

You know you want her, and you are beautiful and good, too. Go and ask her to dance with you, and when one finally says yes, then dance with her like nobody is watching. Or be unhappy. Or believe your own lies and do without what you want. Somebody else will take her.

I think you may be a little harsh to call shyness a mental disorder. Part of it is lack of courage, some of it could be physical response to stimuli. People have courage to various degrees, it's a spectrum. To call something a mental disorder would be to ignore that spectrum and to consider things as strictly black and white.

I think what you are refering to is a misdirected use of fear (which is a phonmenal psychological mechanism that is meant to keep people out of harm's way). I agree that not to pursue someone you are incredibly interested in for no reason other than the fear of rejection would be odd. But then again, there is a question of how much can you truly desire a person when you don't know them (enough to make yourself utterly uncomfortabe?), especially if there are other opportunities that may be at least somewhat acceptable and do not require you to expand as much energy. What I'm trying to say is, if we lived in the universe where the rules of the game were such that if a male did not initiate interest (battle shyness) he would never mate. I would agree with your point of view of calling it a disorder, since that would impede survival of his genetic material. However, given the fact that typical shyness merely narrows your selection options I think it is more of a "characteristic" that holds you back.

Fear of rejection is a fairly common occurance in everybody, some peole choose to fight it and some don't. Regardless, there is nothing wrong with showing a little encouragement to a person you're genuinely interested in. After that it is your choice about what is and isn't acceptible in a partner.

BostonIan

01-21-2009, 07:27 AM

I used to be shy and withdrawn. In that state, I didn't form connections with people, so one attractive woman was no different from another, and there was no reason to approach one woman over another. If women were attracted to me at all, that compelled them to move first, usually just "displaying", but also asking me out (asking me to ask them out), and sometimes going as far as grabbing me and pulling me into a room.

It never bothered me, it was internally funny to see the shoe on the other foot where women were awkwardly poking around and the man held all the cards. It's also food for the ego to be "pre-approved" dozens of times more often than I'd ever been rejected. But, Josephine is right in saying "if he doesn't particlularly want you, why bother?" - women gave me much more than they ever got from me.

And Alpha's right in that shyness isn't as sweet as it looks. On a mechanical level, it may just have been that my brain chemicals were screwy. On a psychological level, I've observed that judgmental people tend to judge themselves harshly as well, and that plays into shyness. Also, people tend to be nervous when they're doing something wrong, have a guilty conscience. These days, I see shy people and think - hmm, what are they really up to?

JohnDoe

01-21-2009, 08:10 AM

the basic truth is - the kind of relationship you initiate is *exactly* the kind of relationship you will end up with...!

if you want to permanently take the role of initiator, then sure, go ahead and set things up that way...

the problem is, that in these feminist days, many women are going after what they want in relationships (which is a good thing in terms of career, property, education, etc) and then once they have it, they more often than not, find out that they'd quite like to modify it a bit...

for me, i know that i would only settle down with a guy who will take the initiative with his career, with our children, with the direction that our lives will take... i just couldn't be long-term attracted to a passive, reactive guy, who just wanted to follow... so for me, it's really important that any serious relationship starts with *him* doing the pursuing...

coz a relationship is not like a career... relationships involve 2 people with gender differences (assuming it's a guy/girl relationship, obviously!) - and to ignore those gender differences is illogical...

personally, i think it's ok (and essential) to be very open to the guy... to make it as unambiguous as possible that you are interested... to be positive about any social thingummies he might suggest (not saying you have to say 'yes' to everything - coz we have busy & interesting lives, don't we ladies - but saying 'sorry i'm already busy' in a way that makes it clear you'd love to go if you were free is good...)

but it's up to him to set the speed of things, in context of the above... i do think it's broadly true that a guy who is properly interested will do something about it, if he knows the girl will say yes if he asks...

it does take a lot of social confidence to do the 'open & unambiguous' thing while waiting for the guy to decide if he's interested...

at most, i'd maybe take the 'unambiguous' thing to actual words: is this friendship likely to ever move to the next level, because i would be ok with that (or words to that effect), but after that ONE move to correct any potential misunderstandings (and to protect your heart if he's definitely un-interested - it can be better to know earlier, than to keep hoping!), anything further would have to be his initiative... because a relationship is more than just the 'how does it start' - it's also the what happens in the first 2 weeks (especially after that excrutiating first date!)... what happens at the one-month stage... how /when /why you meet each other's friends & family... the first holiday you go on together...

and the sad truth is, if the girl initiates all of those milestones, many guys will just go along for the ride, and far too much time will have passed until she realises he was never that into her...

Bitter much? The sad truth is, if the guy initiates all of those milestones, many women will just go along for the ride, and far too much time will have passed until he realizes she was never that into him. Quite frankly, success or failure doesn't have much to do with who makes the first move; if both parties arn't doing their part the relationship isn't going to work in the long run. If one person is ever doing all of the planning, its a disaster in the making; in the long run; averages matter. If you want to ask a guy out, do it (but feel free to expect that he ask you out for date #2 or #3). For the record, I would not go out with someone who expected me to plan every single date for all time, and I know that I'm not the only guy who feels that way. (ADDED:) I know lots of people who complain about how their gf's don't ever plan anything for them because planning is the guy's job. So don't go too far on this spectrum.

Josephine1012

01-21-2009, 08:17 AM

Bitter much? The sad truth is, if the guy initiates all of those milestones, many women will just go along for the ride, and far too much time will have passed until he realizes she was never that into him. Quite frankly, success or failure doesn't have much to do with who makes the first move; if both parties arn't doing their part the relationship isn't going to work in the long run. If one person is ever doing all of the planning, its a disaster in the making; in the long run; averages matter. If you want to ask a guy out, do it (but feel free to expect that he ask you out for date #2 or #3). For the record, I would not go out with someone who expected me to plan every single date for all time, and I know that I'm not the only guy who feels that way.

ok, I think you may be reading into it. My understanding of the post is not that the guy is fully responsible for the relationship, it's a too way street. But when a girl is in a position where she fully has to take on the role of a pursuer, in my experience, that means a guy is either not that interested or is exceptionally passive.

noueux

01-21-2009, 08:25 AM

coz a relationship is not like a career... relationships involve 2 people with gender differences (assuming it's a guy/girl relationship, obviously!) - and to ignore those gender differences is illogical...

So all relationships involving two people, one of whom is a man, and one of whom is a woman, should follow a pattern of roles set by societal expectations of "feminine" and "masculine" behavior?

People are different from each other. Sometimes it has to do with gender (constructed or biological). If you, personally, want this reflected in your relationships, sure, you should go after a man who takes up a masculine role and plays it well. Personally, I gain a lot of respect for someone when he or she defies gendered expectations to pursue his or her interests, goals, or personality. To me, that shows a certain amount of initiative.

As for the shy guy, initiating things might put him in a more comfortable place. But make sure you give him an open ear, too. Just because he's shy doesn't mean he doesn't have opinions, it just means you may have to work harder to draw them out and understand them.

JohnDoe

01-21-2009, 08:29 AM

ok, I think you may be reading into it. My understanding of the post is not that the guy is fully responsible for the relationship, it's a too way street. But when a girl is in a position where she fully has to take on the role of a pursuer, in my experience, that means a guy is either not that interested or is exceptionally passive.
Things are never this black and white though. Maybe the guy thinks (mistakenly) that she has a boyfriend. Maybe the guy thought that she was flirting with everyone (some people have a tendency to come off that way; heck I have been known to come off that way). Maybe shes sending incredibly vague and conflicted mixed signals. Things are never this clear in the real world. And most importantly some miscommunications are hard to clear up. If I think you have a boyfriend, your not going to get asked out until that gets cleared up. So in that case asking me out would be a pretty good idea (because I would like to ask you.)

Edit: This is especially true if you are moving from friends -> relationship. In this case, being overt is really really good, because its very hard to tell reliably when someone who is your friend is flirting with you.

seoa

01-21-2009, 09:15 AM

Bitter much?

interesting that you read it that way... none of my post came from a bitter place, it just happens to be what i believe, no strong emotion behind it...

I know lots of people who complain about how their gf's don't ever plan anything for them because planning is the guy's job. So don't go too far on this spectrum.

i agree... i'm not saying the woman shouldn't plan things occasionally... that's just a practical thing, evolving over time... not the same as the pursuit /allowing a guy to realise that he's interested via realising that if he does nothing the relationship won't go anywhere...

So all relationships involving two people, one of whom is a man, and one of whom is a woman, should follow a pattern of roles set by societal expectations of "feminine" and "masculine" behavior?

not so much *should* as *do*... most women behave like a 'typical woman', and ditto men - that's why the 'type' exists... and i acknowledged in my post that the trad male/female thing is what i want for myself (i'm not looking to be oppressed by a patriach, but i don't wanna be the one wearing the trousers...)

i like men... i like what makes them men - the testosterone, the adventure-seeking (not stupidity, altho sometimes that's just a matter of perspective :)), desire to take a lead, to conquer, etc... and of course i'm not saying that therefore women don't seek adventure, can't conquer, but male hormones tend to enhance certain behaviours, similarly female... all i'm saying (which i think we agree on) is that you can't setup a relationship with one balance of behaviours, and then expect/hope it to settle down into a different balance later on...

and just to be clear, i'm not saying women can't do everything men do - i've proved in my career that i can achieve just as much (and usually more) than the men i work with... but there is an essential difference between how women approach the job, and how men do... to ignore the gender differences (in terms of motivations, preferences, etc) leads to confusion & lower productivity...

if you believe in MBTI as a way of categorising, and helping explain people, why wouldn't you believe in gender having a similar purpose... i think in a lot of ways gender over-rides MBTI... :laugh:

seoa added to this post, 14 minutes and 43 seconds later...

Personally, I gain a lot of respect for someone when he or she defies gendered expectations to pursue his or her interests, goals, or personality. To me, that shows a certain amount of initiative.

which is fine, but the reality is that feminism has skewed the western world to favouring female behaviours... it is seen as good & balanced for a guy to be in touch with his feminine side, and for a female to embrace certain acceptable male behaviours (ambition mostly)... but there's a tendency to dismiss, and try and eliminate, any male behaviours that the females disapprove of... the thrill-seeking, sense of adventure, motor-bike riding, questing, conquering...

i'm not explaining this very well i think... someone help me out here...

Harmony

01-21-2009, 09:29 AM

I've noticed with most shy guys... After that first time I've initiated anything, they initiate things in the future... It just seems like the confidence backing that first time is where they shyness comes in.

However, I've also been told by a few shy guys that they are extremely comfortable around me, whereas others they are not...

SteveJrII

01-21-2009, 10:12 AM

I will initiate if interest is strong enough -- but only if I can recognize she's interested back. Too often have I seen a flirty girl who I like, but can't tell whether she's genuinely interested in me or not, so I don't bother. I'm fairly sure I've lost a lot of potential girlfriends that way.

I am fairly similar in this respect. Initiating a conversation is something I try to work on. And I think it is perfectly acceptable for a girl to start something. I am not sure why those 'rules' are still applicable in today's world.

theunstrungharp

01-21-2009, 11:50 AM

What rules?

You don't need them. Don't subscribe!

lizzyb83

01-21-2009, 11:54 AM

So, I second the advice brought by others to give a clear and unambiguous sign of your interest. Flirting is not sufficient for this, especially with INTJ guys.

Then what is?

Rudy

01-21-2009, 12:12 PM

Then what is?

I will have to do a partial retraction, actually. Flirting can be sufficient, if you've never acted playfully with this person before. Even then, you'd have to make it somewhat over the top, as we're even more obtuse than most guys, on average, when it comes to that.

If, however, this if a friend you've teased or been playful with before, I can almost guarantee that no matter how many notches you turn up the flirting, he's going to assume you're still just being playful in a friendly way. This is doubly true if you have a close friendship. If this is the case, you will either have to a) Ask him out, b) Tell him to ask you out, c) Flat out tell him that you like him.

An interesting gambit that a female friend of mine used was to ask me whether I had any romantic interest in her. I answered yes, and things progressed fairly easily from there, and we dated for a while. The good thing about that question, so she later told me, is if the guy answers no, you can play it off as "Oh, good, I was worried that you did, because I don't want our friendship to get awkward." Thus you retain some room to protect yourself.

Josephine1012

01-21-2009, 12:16 PM

An interesting gambit that a female friend of mine used was to ask me whether I had any romantic interest in her. I answered yes, and things progressed fairly easily from there, and we dated for a while. The good thing about that question, so she later told me, is if the guy answers no, you can play it off as "Oh, good, I was worried that you did, because I don't want our friendship to get awkward." Thus you retain some room to protect yourself.

how about a: "heh, just curious" with a wink instead... the other response just seems like a whole lotta lying, which is easily detectable and a little embarrassing.

Rudy

01-21-2009, 12:19 PM

Maybe. The lying might be detected in either case. But even if it is, it provides a pretense that allows both parties to play along to in order to minimize emotional hurt.

Josephine1012

01-21-2009, 12:21 PM

Maybe. The lying might be detected in either case. But even if it is, it provides a pretense that allows both parties to play along to in order to minimize emotional hurt.

hehe, well the other response is not lying at all. but it allows you to maintain ambiguity.

Asinine

01-21-2009, 12:22 PM

You know, it's funny how putting up a faux sense of confidence and subtly begging for the mere attention of a woman is perceived as being dominant and demanding that a woman meet you half way is submissive.

Rudy

01-21-2009, 12:26 PM

*shrug* Neither side wants to have to put themselves out there, emotionally. The role is traditionally the male's, because testosterone makes us better able to overcome this fear, on average.

lizzyb83

01-21-2009, 12:39 PM

I will have to do a partial retraction, actually. Flirting can be sufficient, if you've never acted playfully with this person before. Even then, you'd have to make it somewhat over the top, as we're even more obtuse than most guys, on average, when it comes to that.

But what if you're an INTJ female? Frankly, I feel as though any ability I have to "flirt" comes from silent observation and that even when I attempt it, I view it as exaggerated when in actuality it's probably undetectable. Plus, I think I'm pretty obtuse when it comes to being approached by guys as well.

If, however, this if a friend you've teased or been playful with before, I can almost guarantee that no matter how many notches you turn up the flirting, he's going to assume you're still just being playful in a friendly way. This is doubly true if you have a close friendship. If this is the case, you will either have to a) Ask him out, b) Tell him to ask you out, c) Flat out tell him that you like him.

Probably true of INTJ women as well.

An interesting gambit that a female friend of mine used was to ask me whether I had any romantic interest in her. I answered yes, and things progressed fairly easily from there, and we dated for a while. The good thing about that question, so she later told me, is if the guy answers no, you can play it off as "Oh, good, I was worried that you did, because I don't want our friendship to get awkward." Thus you retain some room to protect yourself.

But how is the guy protecting himself? What if she's only asking that because she's getting uncomfortable with signals she's perceived, and wants to address it because she doesn't feel the same way? Then, admission would only end up leaving the guy vulnerable.

wotsamattaU

01-21-2009, 12:40 PM

Alpha, are you referring to the 'love shy'?

[/URL][url=To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.]Love Shy (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Rudy

01-21-2009, 12:47 PM

But how is the guy protecting himself? What if she's only asking that because she's getting uncomfortable with signals she's perceived, and wants to address it because she doesn't feel the same way? Then, admission would only end up leaving the guy vulnerable.

Unfortunately, there is no win-win solution here. There will always be emotional vulnerability, though this way does still offer slight protection in the following way:

Let's say the guy is interested in the girl, and the feeling is not mutual. It is far less emotionally painful (in my experience) to offer a solicited proclamation of affection than an unsolicited one. That is, if the guy can say, "Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but you asked," it provides some protection from the rejection.

Also, I don't know if this is true for all INTJs, but I have never, ever had trouble answering a direct question, even if it's something I would have extreme difficulty bringing up on my own.

Asinine

01-21-2009, 12:49 PM

Then what is?

This is a tired response, but you asked: Be direct. Some people are just flirty, and mistakes happen.

Oh, wait, this likely doesn't apply to all shy men. Oops.

lizzyb83

01-21-2009, 12:53 PM

but the reality is that feminism has skewed the western world to favouring female behaviours... it is seen as good & balanced for a guy to be in touch with his feminine side, and for a female to embrace certain acceptable male behaviours (ambition mostly)... but there's a tendency to dismiss, and try and eliminate, any male behaviours that the females disapprove of... the thrill-seeking, sense of adventure, motor-bike riding, questing, conquering...

i'm not explaining this very well i think... someone help me out here...

I think I understand your point, and I generally feel the same way. I think that traditional gender roles, though certainly confining, took a lot of the confusion out of courtship and the relationship stemming from that initial "dance". Women's success was often measured by the type of man she married and her ability to perform her household and social duties while men's success was measured by his ability to acquire a proper wife and support his family financially.

Now that women and men have side-stepped those roles, navigating romance has become much more challenging. Given the new opportunities available to us, we all want to find a relationship that goes beyond societal expectations and leads to personal fulfillment - but what is going to fulfill us? The same societal influences that led us in one direction before now lead us in several divergent ones.

Many people end up unhappy because they don't know what they want, and even when they find something that seems to work, they're left wondering whether they've met their own ambitions of improving on the conventional relationship of days past, thus (in my opinion) explaining a fear of committment and even lack of desire to initiate what could end up being an ultimately disappointing experience with regards to one's expectations. Some people tell us we're wrong to want traditional relationships with defined gender roles, and others tell us that unconventional ones are not as successful. Throw in many womens' achievements in the professional world and subsequent lack of dependence on a husband's income, and you have a situation in which marriage is no longer universally expected, praised, or necessary. Thus, relationships are evaluated by ourselves and the people with whom we're establishing them, each of whom has ideas on how it should work based on their unique combinations of family, culture, and experience.

Wow. My head hurts just thinking about it. And I fear I've failed at elaborating on seoa's original point, only making things more complicated!

nowandzen

01-21-2009, 12:54 PM

I am a fairly shy male and will ask out someone only if I'm pretty sure there is mutual interest. A female taking the initiative is just fine by me---unless it's done with vulgarity. Once I had an attractive, accomplished blind date say to me after we met in a cafe and had ONE drink and then a sandwich, "I sure could use a good screw." Up to this point I liked her, but did not consider our previous interaction flirtatious at all. Taken aback I replied "Right now? We just met." We then went to a movie but in retrospect I should have dumped her on the spot.

lizzyb83

01-21-2009, 12:58 PM

Unfortunately, there is no win-win solution here. There will always be emotional vulnerability

Indeed, which begs the question of why we play such games in the first place. But of course, the answer to that lies in the irrationality of the emotions we're trying to protect.

Vagrant

01-21-2009, 01:08 PM

I have to admit, I'm slightly annoyed by some of the responses I have seen here:

Shyness is not a mental disorder. Maybe extreme shyness, such as avoidant personality disorder. But mild shyness is natural -- everybody gets it. What people do with it depends on that person. I've lived with it, and I think it's a good system of protection from not only rejection, but also wasted time, energy, and money.
Just because a guy does not show initiative the first time it does not mean he will never show initiative ever. By way of example, because I know myself best, I am shy, and I do not take the initiative at first. However, the second things are no longer ambiguous to me, I take a lot more initiative. I go from seemingly passive to almost aggressive in my pursuit and initiative -- I will put the effort in should I recognize the mutual interest. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only shy guy like this.
Why the hell is it perfectly fine for a girl to be shy, but not a guy? I mean, why the double standard? That's what a lot of you seem to be saying. Why can't we just meet halfway?

I found out recently, that some of my shyness was chemical, some of it was not -- since I started on antidepressants a month ago, I've been significantly less shy -- but I'm still shy. It's always been there as a protective mechanism, but served much stronger as protection when I was depressed.

alphawolf

01-21-2009, 01:12 PM

Once I had an attractive, accomplished blind date say to me after we met in a cafe and had ONE drink and then a sandwich, "I sure could use a good screw." Up to this point I liked her

"Right here, in the cafe?! ;-)"

She checked you out, felt that you were safe, and asked you for sex...

She was probably married, though. Or trying to put her boyfriend out of her mind for dumping or cheating on her. Good looking women are not just asking men for sex shortly after meeting without a reason. They don't need to.

karenk

01-21-2009, 02:14 PM

Why the hell is it perfectly fine for a girl to be shy, but not a guy? I mean, why the double standard? That's what a lot of you seem to be saying. Why can't we just meet halfway?

Funny, I always felt like it's more acceptable for a male to be shy. I've seen people say that a particular male is so shy -as if it's an endearing trait. (I've heard that a few times.) I haven't heard that said about a female and I don't think I ever got a positive response when my shyness was exposed. Of course this is perspective/experience and I'm sure both females/males experience difficulties with the trait.

Asinine

01-21-2009, 04:23 PM

SeaCzar

01-21-2009, 04:30 PM

Shyness, especially romantic shyness, is a mental disorder

Source?

Apologies, but I have to take issue with this. There are different degrees of shyness. Initially, if you see someone who in your head you believe to be ideal, I would think that there is a natural reluctance to have that ideal proved wrong. I also think shyness and being passive are mutually exclusive. You can tell if someone has inner confidence, whether they are shy or not. It might just be me, but, when it comes to relationships, romantic or otherwise, I am drawn to those who are more laid back and understated. If anything, overconfidence is a weakness.

Storm

01-21-2009, 05:38 PM

I've always thought the whole "pursued" and "pursuer" line is so blurred that it's fruitless to make the distinction. Even back in the days of more "traditonal" gender roles. Women didn't just sit around and do nothing, waiting for a man. They went to balls, they arranged favorable situations, they flirted. Whose really pursuing who? I couldn't tell you.

Here is a very general way on how relatioinships progress today (leaving out internet dating). It shows how it's impossible to tell whose the pursuer and whose the pursued.
1. Two people will find themselves attending the same events. Perhaps by arrangement. For instance, Suzy may attend a party because she knows John will be there. (Is Suzy the pursuer?)
2. One person will start to flirt with the other (is this the pursuer?).
3. Perhaps the person's friends or the person themself will then invite the other out to a group activity. It is often casually done: "Hey, I got 4 tickets to see a concert this weekend, but my friend bailed, so now we have an extra, want to come?" (is this the pursuer?)
4. Finally, someone will ask the other person out on a real "date." Even then, it can be confusing if it's a date if they've been doing things together. (this is probably the traditional spot to label the pursuer, but as you can see from the previous steps, such a label wouldn't be accurate. Especially since steps 1 to 3 are commonly done by both parties).

So, as for this problem of shy men. If you are female and want them to ask you out on the first official date, or ask you out on the first few dates (eventually, the pursuing/pursued facade is abandoned even among the most traditional), you need to do some camaflauged pursuing. Not just flirting, but doing some of the above mentioned. Perhaps returning favors (like giving you a lift that time your car had a flat ;)) with baked goods. Letting him borrow a book you read and thought he would enjoy. That kind of thing.

elsdfr

01-21-2009, 05:47 PM

karenk

01-21-2009, 07:55 PM

Are you just guessing that he is shy or have you made a decent effort to show you're interested and he shied away? It's just I find that some people think that someone who doesn't talk about themselves or exert their personality around others automatically means they are shy.

I only met him once within a larger group, but I know he identifies himself as shy/social anxiety. Sometimes you can also tell by the way he talks- that it's true. I made no effort to show I was interested. I tried to hide it. That was my shyness because I didn't realize I was interested until about half-way through the situation. If I do anything, my inclination is to be straight-forward bypassing efforts to try to show interest and trying to decipher reactions. That's unpleasant at best. What I mean is I would have invited him to meet for coffee or something else if I did anything. I think that would have been hypothetically unambiguous in the situation.

Nomadofthehills

01-21-2009, 08:44 PM

JohnDoe

01-21-2009, 08:53 PM

Funny, I always felt like it's more acceptable for a male to be shy. I've seen people say that a particular male is so shy -as if it's an endearing trait. (I've heard that a few times.) I haven't heard that said about a female and I don't think I ever got a positive response when my shyness was exposed. Of course this is perspective/experience and I'm sure both females/males experience difficulties with the trait.

Perhaps among women. Among men, shyness in women has what essentially is an erotic urban legend attached to it.
Yeah I'm pretty much posting just to agree with Asinine. To put it bluntly, your really wrong about shy women not being attractive. I may be tempted to even say they can be more attractive. :P
Having said that, I want to emphasize again that even asking someone to coffee is not necessarily going to show interest if you proceed to act very coldly/reserved during the date (which may not be intentional, but shy can often be mistaken for cold/reserved). So if you think that might be a problem, make sure to do something very obvious to show that you want another date.

Anreader

01-21-2009, 09:02 PM

Among men, shyness in women has what essentially is an erotic urban legend attached to it.

Could you explain this a little better? I would like to take advantage if I could. Im a little shy... Not mentally disordered though...

nowandzen

01-21-2009, 10:00 PM

"Right here, in the cafe?! ;-)"

She checked you out, felt that you were safe, and asked you for sex...

She was probably married, though. Or trying to put her boyfriend out of her mind for dumping or cheating on her. Good looking women are not just asking men for sex shortly after meeting without a reason. They don't need to.

She was not married. She was nuts.

seoa

01-22-2009, 01:37 AM

To put it bluntly, your really wrong about shy women not being attractive. I may be tempted to even say they can be more attractive. :P

...and they say that having the woman do the pursuing is ok, potentially a good thing...

and then they admit that the shy girls can be even more attractive...

you do the math :)

Sinequanon

01-22-2009, 03:17 AM

...and they say that having the woman do the pursuing is ok, potentially a good thing...

and then they admit that the shy girls can be even more attractive...

you do the math :)
Women are always attractive, silly. ;)

invicta

01-22-2009, 04:22 AM

If a male is shy, does it change the rules?

What rules?

Rudy

01-22-2009, 05:25 AM

...and they say that having the woman do the pursuing is ok, potentially a good thing...

and then they admit that the shy girls can be even more attractive...

you do the math :)

Shy girls may be extremely attractive, but if I don't have some sign that there is interest, I won't be initiating anything regardless.

rudyhenkel added to this post, 2 minutes and 18 seconds later...

What rules?

*nods* I should have said that myself, but anyone who thinks there should be just one way to do this is a very silly person.

Asinine

01-22-2009, 09:18 AM

Could you explain this a little better? I would like to take advantage if I could. Im a little shy... Not mentally disordered though...

I was trying not to be crude about it, and the exact explaination seems to vary depending on who is trying to say it. But, essentially, the idea is that the women that tend to be the shyest in public are the wildest in private. Also, shyness in a woman perceived in general as being cute can make them appear cuter.

...and they say that having the woman do the pursuing is ok, potentially a good thing...

and then they admit that the shy girls can be even more attractive...

you do the math :)

I said men in general, not myself. And, not everyone bases what they personally find attractive on public opinions. A shy attitude can sometimes be initially attractive. But such a woman will fail to be considered as a potential partner by me, unless they start to show an uncharacteristically high amount of interest in starting something. (No, I don't consider it their fault.) Unfortunately, I am likely far too dense to notice, though. So, that's unlikely. I don't act on impulse.

alphawolf

01-22-2009, 09:49 AM

I am very shy with women, although I am trying to overcome this. I have a lot of trouble understanding flirting, either targeted at me, or how to properly utilize this tool.

I'll be honest, I practice on girls I am not attracted to.

I have also practised flirting with unattractive (IMO) women a long time ago, then I tried it with the women that I am really attracted to. I came to the almost immediate conclusion that the acceptance rate with the attractive women was no less than the acceptance rate with the unattractive women. Yeah, that's right. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. This is what I am trying to say: it's a mental disorder. Forget the social stigma of the term mental disorder and just analyse it for what it is - your mind is out of order and is fighting against itself, thus preventing you from pursuing what you want in a confident manner.

It can be fixed, but you have to be willing to identify and throw the internal shaming committee out of your head. They don't pay rent, you know. You are the judge, you know. Slam down the hammer and declare order in the court.

lizzyb83

01-22-2009, 10:06 AM

This is what I am trying to say: it's a mental disorder. Forget the social stigma of the term mental disorder and just analyse it for what it is - your mind is out of order and is fighting against itself, thus preventing you from pursuing what you want in a confident manner.

With all due respect, as a medical professional, I must respectfully disagree with your labelling of shyness as a mental disorder. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "stigma" of the term, since I am fully aware of the ways in which people deny or side-step the issue of mental disease in ways that they never do with physical ones. However, shyness falls within the spectrum of normal human behavior, whereas mental disease stems from actual neurochemical imbalances (think schizophrenia and its relation to levels of dopamine, or depression and its relation to levels of serotonin). You might be able to get away with calling shyness a personality disorder (the already-existing "avoidant personality disorder", perhaps?), but I don't even think that could work, because personality disorders by definition afflict people who lack self-awareness of their flawed coping mechanisms.

Nomadofthehills

01-22-2009, 10:41 AM

I have also practiced flirting with unattractive (IMO) women a long time ago, then I tried it with the women that I am really attracted to. I came to the almost immediate conclusion that the acceptance rate with the attractive women was no less than the acceptance rate with the unattractive women. Yeah, that's right. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. This is what I am trying to say: it's a mental disorder. Forget the social stigma of the term mental disorder and just analyse it for what it is - your mind is out of order and is fighting against itself, thus preventing you from pursuing what you want in a confident manner.

It can be fixed, but you have to be willing to identify and throw the internal shaming committee out of your head. They don't pay rent, you know. You are the judge, you know. Slam down the hammer and declare order in the court.

While I would not call it a mental disorder as you do, it definitely would have been maladaptive when humans were evolving much more quickly than they are today. Back then, if you did not chase down, or successfully court a female, your fitness went down dramatically.

Fitness wise, the ideal male back then was one who maintained a monogamous partner, while cheating, while raping occasionally.

Say one male was a committed monogamist, his fitness is hypothetically .5.
A male with a monogamous partner who cheats has a fitness of .8.
A male who cheats AND rapes, has a fitness of .9.

In no way does shyness help prehistoric male Homo sapian sapiens spread their genes.

alphawolf

01-22-2009, 10:49 AM

With all due respect, as a medical professional, I must respectfully disagree with your labelling of shyness as a mental disorder. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "stigma" of the term, since I am fully aware of the ways in which people deny or side-step the issue of mental disease in ways that they never do with physical ones. However, shyness falls within the spectrum of normal human behavior, whereas mental disease stems from actual neurochemical imbalances (think schizophrenia and its relation to levels of dopamine, or depression and its relation to levels of serotonin). You might be able to get away with calling shyness a personality disorder (the already-existing "avoidant personality disorder", perhaps?), but I don't even think that could work, because personality disorders by definition afflict people who lack self-awareness of their flawed coping mechanisms.

Would you classify Generalized Anxiety Disorder a mental disorder?

Have you ever seen or heard of a pattern of mental disorders in a family history? If you dig deep into the family story, has the family story been a long chain of various types of abuse spanning across multiple generations? Is it a cycle of abuse caused by a hereditary disorder, or is it an environmentally induced disorder caused by a cycle of abuse? I submit to you that it is the latter.

Interesting picture here:

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Rudy

01-22-2009, 10:56 AM

While I would not call it a mental disorder as you do, it definitely would have been maladaptive when humans were evolving much more quickly than they are today. Back then, if you did not chase down, or successfully court a female, your fitness went down dramatically.

Fitness wise, the ideal male back then was one who maintained a monogamous partner, while cheating, while raping occasionally.

Say one male was a committed monogamist, his fitness is hypothetically .5.
A male with a monogamous partner who cheats has a fitness of .8.
A male who cheats AND rapes, has a fitness of .9.

In no way does shyness help prehistoric male Homo sapian sapiens spread their genes.

So, if I understand you, you're saying that shyness is comparable to not-raping people? Wow, that makes me feel good about myself =D

lizzyb83

01-22-2009, 11:09 AM

Would you classify Generalized Anxiety Disorder a mental disorder?

Have you ever seen or heard of a pattern of mental disorders in a family history? If you dig deep into the family story, has the family story been a long chain of various types of abuse spanning across multiple generations? Is it a cycle of abuse caused by a hereditary disorder, or is it an environmentally induced disorder caused by a cycle of abuse? I submit to you that it is the latter.

Yes, Generalized Anxiety Disorder IS a mental disorder, but unless you fit the DSM-IV criteria for GAD (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), you do not have it, and shyness is not sufficient to receive this diagnosis.

As for patterns of mental disorders, clearly there is a heritable component, so one does tend to see familial patterns of mental disease. I do not feel that genetics and environment are mutually exclusive in this regard. I believe that mental disorders stem from underlying neuropathology that becomes apparent when such individuals are placed in certain environmental situations. Unfortunately, our understanding of the CNS is currently fairly limited, but it will only be a matter of time before we have a better understanding of the complex differences in neurotransmitter levels and neurocircuitry that likely underly these disorders.

alphawolf

01-22-2009, 01:31 PM

I believe that mental disorders stem from underlying neuropathology that becomes apparent when such individuals are placed in certain environmental situations. Unfortunately, our understanding of the CNS is currently fairly limited, but it will only be a matter of time before we have a better understanding of the complex differences in neurotransmitter levels and neurocircuitry that likely underly these disorders.

In the meantime, until we figure it out the brain...

I got an upcoming date with a really nice and very attractive woman, just by asking her. I asked her, because I thought to myself, "self, I want and deserve a woman like her, and she wants and deserves a man like me. self, what are you going to do about it?". I thought to myself, "self, if you act shy or inadequate in any way, then she will say no.". I thought to myself, "self, order in the court!".

Shyness is akin to being a judge and permitting not just one, but a group of people to be contemptuous in your courtroom. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

JohnDoe

01-22-2009, 03:12 PM

In the meantime, until we figure it out the brain...

I got an upcoming date with a really nice and very attractive woman, just by asking her. I asked her, because I thought to myself, "self, I want and deserve a woman like her, and she wants and deserves a man like me. self, what are you going to do about it?". I thought to myself, "self, if you act shy or inadequate in any way, then she will say no.". I thought to myself, "self, order in the court!".

Shyness is akin to being a judge and permitting not just one, but a group of people to be contemptuous in your courtroom. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

This is pretty much the trick for negotiating for anything in the world you want.

Anreader

01-22-2009, 04:24 PM

I was trying not to be crude about it... But, essentially, the idea is that the women that tend to be the shyest in public are the wildest in private. I think this may be wishful thinking. I would have to be really really comfortable to be in any way "wild."
But such a woman will fail to be considered as a potential partner... unless they start to show an uncharacteristically high amount of interest in starting something. I rarely notice if anyone is noticing me. Ha ha.

As a shy person I think the girl in question should just club the guy and drag him back to her cave. He'll thank you for it later.

JohnDoe

01-22-2009, 04:37 PM

Yeah I just think that people who are very private can be pretty interesting.. Why are you so secretive anyway. Surely there must be a secret in there worth knowing (this is my general thinking at least on why it can be attractive; why are you so secretive anyway Anreader ;) ). I'll also add that its entirely plausible to be very shy, and make the first move, so this notion upthread that the two are mutually exclusive is pretty silly.

Anreader

01-22-2009, 04:45 PM

uhm forgive me if i misread you but are you flirting with me? :) (Mmm, Maybe i should give up speaking all together and start typing.)

JohnDoe

01-22-2009, 04:48 PM

Clearly I would never do such a thing in a thread like this :P

Anreader

01-22-2009, 07:10 PM

Back to noticing the noticing I guess...

JohnDoe

01-22-2009, 08:02 PM

Noticing the noticing? I'm not sure I follow. Surely you noticed that I would in fact do such a thing in a thread like this ;) I'm sure the mods are going to come arrest me for derailing the thread soon :)
Edit:
I may have possibly hypothetically been flirting, but it wouldn't be flirting if I said so would it?

alphawolf

01-23-2009, 12:07 AM

As a shy person I think the girl in question should just club the guy and drag him back to her cave. He'll thank you for it later.

OK, just club me now! If you make me feel better afterwards than I did before you clubbed me, then I'll thank you ;-)

LOL, if men take what they want with force, then it's rape, kidnapping, harassment, or whatever. But if women do it, then it is assumed that men will be love it and thankful, food for the male ego. When is the last time you heard a man accuse a woman of raping him?

That is precisely the reality behind why men need to flirt - we are not permitted to just go around clubbing women and dragging them back to our caves.

JohnDoe

01-23-2009, 03:58 AM

OK, just club me now! If you make me feel better afterwards than I did before you clubbed me, then I'll thank you ;-)

LOL, if men take what they want with force, then it's rape, kidnapping, harassment, or whatever. But if women do it, then it is assumed that men will be love it and thankful, food for the male ego. When is the last time you heard a man accuse a woman of raping him?

That is precisely the reality behind why men need to flirt - we are not permitted to just go around clubbing women and dragging them back to our caves.

Wait, what?

Anreader

01-23-2009, 04:09 AM

Is this supposed to be a case for sexual inequity on the behalf of men? The difference is that a man could stop a woman if he wanted where the reverse is not usually true. I mean maybe a female body builder could stop Steve Erkel, but I couldn't stop Ethan Hawk. Do you think a woman could assault Matthew McConaughey?

Vagrant

01-23-2009, 08:50 AM

Given the proper implements, yes.

Kisai

01-23-2009, 11:26 AM

greenblob

01-23-2009, 11:54 AM

Shyness, especially romantic shyness, is a mental disorder; this has nothing to do with being introverted. And the stronger the shyness, the stronger the disorder. It is all about internal shame and a fear of happiness. Once you can identify and release your shame, shyness will disappear.

What is a man going to do if a woman he really likes makes an exception for him? He is going to become dependent on her. He is going to fear that he can not possibly find another like her. He is going to fear losing her at all costs. The more he like's her, the more powerful the fear.

In practice, it leads to jealousy, insecurity, controlling, addictions, violence, divorce...

In my opinion, women should not make an exception for romantically shy men. Don't give them advice on how to unlock your box, either. If they can't figure it out how to use the key, then they simply do not gain entrance.

It doesn't explain why it's the man's job to initiate, though.

alphawolf

01-23-2009, 12:06 PM

It doesn't explain why it's the man's job to initiate, though.

Blame it on your fellow man and his instinct to sow his oats far and wide.

Women don't need to initiate. Even unattractive women are getting approached every day for sex by far more attractive men. Men are dogs. If you are both a shy and unattractive male, you just ain't gettin' laid.

Anreader

01-23-2009, 01:30 PM

Cattle prod, gun, mace, chloroform, getting the victim drunk. Yes.

I would think the cattle prod, gun, and mace would have a deleterious effect on the man's... ability. Chloroform and enebriation might work but... He would have to be surpized, with the chloroform, or relatively willing, or stupid, with the alchohol. Why would you go through all this trouble anyway? You should be very afraid when he snaps out of it.

But sexist as it may sound, I agree with Alphawolf about this: If you are both a shy and unattractive male, you just ain't gettin' laid. Which is why I say go for it. If he is really desperate, he won't mind. And why wouldn't he be desperate given the above?

Anreader added to this post, 2 minutes and 51 seconds later...

And i checked the profile of the people who didn't agree about the assault business, and they are male. I think you may be overestimating the comparative physical stregnth of females.

Vagrant

01-23-2009, 01:33 PM

And i checked the profile of the people who didn't agree about the assault business, and they are male. I think you may be overestimating the comparative physical stregnth of females.

I said "given the proper implements." :D

karenk

01-23-2009, 01:40 PM

But sexist as it may sound, I agree with Alphawolf about this:

"If you are both a shy and unattractive male, you just ain't gettin' laid."

Which is why I say go for it. If he is really desperate, he won't mind. And why wouldn't he be desperate given the above?

He has attractive characteristics of course or I wouldn't have started this thread. ha! My guess is women initiate more with shy and attractive men. If the male is outgoing and attractive then women probably let them initiate. It's just a guess. I don't think the person I met is desperate. There was another female there and she invited herself to go somewhere with him. He responded enthusiastically. Someone else there told her she was beautiful like 4 times. So....... Anyway I may not even run into this person again, so it's moot now. I still like the topic in general terms though.

Asinine

01-23-2009, 03:53 PM

I rarely notice if anyone is noticing me. Ha ha.

My nick ain't "Asinine" for nothin'. But, believe it or not, my self esteem is actually pretty high. I just take my flaws in stride, and fix what I can.

As a shy person I think the girl in question should just club the guy and drag him back to her cave. He'll thank you for it later.

I sometimes feel that way about myself. But honestly, if asked, I answer directly and go willingly. And, if not, I give an honest answer as to why. Usually, it's just logistics, which can be worked around. I have no idea about her prospect, though. There is too little information, and too many potential factors.

Bigpappa14

01-23-2009, 04:01 PM

If you are a shy male you are never going to get any girls. You will get the girls that do not think they are sexy because they do no tthink they can get any better.

ricearoni

01-23-2009, 04:19 PM

What I'm wondering is: if you know the male is shy, do the females here make an exception? Do shy males still initiate if the interest is strong enough? Would they dislike a female initiating even more because of their shyness? Maybe they would be uncomfortable thinking of a way to say no or they would feel overwhelmed. I'm referring to quite a high level of shyness.

In my experience, shy guys will initiate if they're motivated enough. But geez louise, it's a rather drawn out and frustrating process. Sometimes the littlest things will scare them off and they'll never try again.

So yeah, I think it's fine to bend the rules a little bit when it comes to shy guys. Only a little though. If they're not eager to be around you or can't be bothered to reciprocate when you get sick of asking them out...then it's just not worth the effort. I mean, if he's still too shy to ask you out after you've asked him out...then he's got problems. If he's too lazy to ask you out then he really isn't that interested or just real self-absorbed.