Next Goal?

[wwise]

So I just took the Jung Typology test tonight and determined that I'm an INTJ. This makes complete sense to me and I identify with about 95% of the descriptions that I've seen online. One post compared us to Prometheus - the mythical god who was required to constantly push a boulder up a hill and allow it to roll back to the bottom. This seems so much like me - always looking for the next achievement, the next thing to conquer, the next task to take on and yet never cresting the hill. This is so tiring and I would love to relax at some point, but there is no accomplishment in relaxing. I keep trying to reach to the next level and keep thinking that eventually I'm going to get 'there', wherever 'there' may be. People tell me that I'm very successful, but I don't feel successful because I haven't gotten 'there' yet. Any ideas how to work with this? How do you move beyond this or will we always feel unfulfilled???

[The Many]

You die.

Less drastically though, life is for INTJs nothing but the pursuit of goals. I know I get deadly bored when I don't have a goal to work for, so my advice is that you simply take pride in your achievements. Of course, throwing in some mindless, good, ol' fashioned fun every now and then isn't a bad idea either. Get drunk. Go to concerts. Travel. Experience things. That kind of stuff.

[wwise]

Yeah - I get that, but the fulfillment for my goals last about 2 seconds and then I'm bored with not achieving anything again. It sucks! Oh - I can't enjoy playing unless there's a goal to it - beating someone, being #1, something. :)

[The Many]

Yeah - I get that, but the fulfillment for my goals last about 2 seconds and then I'm bored with not achieving anything again. It sucks! Oh - I can't enjoy playing unless there's a goal to it - beating someone, being #1, something. :)

Then get involved with art rather than sports. Art has no winners or losers, only various viewpoints. Read books. You'll find yourself learning things as you go along... or perhaps even better, create goals which must always be fulfilled; for instance you can try to develop a worldview and conscious moral rules and then apply these for yourself - this also has the added bonus of you organizing yourself, which really benefits all people. A deep understanding usually also enhances ones appreciation of things, which in this case would be the world.

This has worked for me, at least.

[RoqueBear]

Then get involved with art rather than sports. Art has no winners or losers, only various viewpoints.
This has worked for me, at least.

Funny.... This kinda correlated with a description of INTJ's that I read and dealing with this topic. The article discussed how INTJ's start developing our *Sensing* to being to appreciate things later in life. This description said that around mid-life INTJ's begin to do this in various ways.... cooking, wine tasting, artistic endevours, etc.. This is done in a way begin to "feel" those accomplishments from just thinking about them....

So the phrase... stop and smell the roses is truly applicable to us.

[banzai]

I'm either working towards something, doing something new, or bored out of my mind. I can't help but to constantly achieve and discover, it's the only way I can be happy. :)

[Meyer]

Having and working towards goals is what gets me out of bed each day. Without this it would be hard for me to find much meaning in life.

[Amaranth]

Funny.... This kinda correlated with a description of INTJ's that I read and dealing with this topic. The article discussed how INTJ's start developing our *Sensing* to being to appreciate things later in life. This description said that around mid-life INTJ's begin to do this in various ways.... cooking, wine tasting, artistic endevours, etc.. This is done in a way begin to "feel" those accomplishments from just thinking about them....

So the phrase... stop and smell the roses is truly applicable to us.

That's where I'm at (except around quarter-life rather than mid-life). Reading, cooking, kicking the soccer ball around, etc. Spending time with an INTP helps - they're still rational and introverted (so they won't drive you crazy), and they can convince you to mix work and play, enjoy exploring things rather than just getting them done. They have an easier time developing their sensing abilities because they don't hang deadlines over their heads like we do! ;D

I think this ties in to INTJs Achilles' heel - personal relationships. Intimacy's built on a balance of shared goals/values (where INTJs shine) and shared experiences (i.e. living in the moment, something that doesn't come naturally to INTJs). If we don't learn how to do the latter, our lives will be littered with accomplishments coupled with broken relationships.

[wwise]

thanks everyone - I guess there is no silver bullet that will be make me okay with where I am right now and be able to chill.

[Hdier]

Yeah - I get that, but the fulfillment for my goals last about 2 seconds and then I'm bored with not achieving anything again. It sucks! Oh - I can't enjoy playing unless there's a goal to it - beating someone, being #1, something. :)

That happens to me to, but as long as I have a goal I'm pretty much good as long as I work on it a bit every day, assuming I can.

[radioactivez0r]

I was going to make a post on a topic similar to this, but I guess I can just contribute here. I talked to a friend the other day before heading over, and he told me he would be home, he was just playing computer games. A thought occurred to me -- it seems that I'm always obsessed with the next accomplishment, the next thing to improve myself. I'm in a job now that could easily take care of me until I retire, slowly moving up in rank and seniority and make a pretty good living at it, without doing any outside education or training. I could spend my days off (and my mornings) reading, playing video games, watching the 400+ movies I have on Netflix...but I don't. I have these grand plans to get X, Y, and Z certifications and then go to grad school, and even while I slowly make progress toward those, I have to spend my free time "being productive" (I wonder who instilled that in me at a young age) or I feel like I've wasted time. If I play a game for more than say, 2 hours, I start to feel guilty and decide I really need to go do something useful.

That bothers me.

[Max T]

If I play a game for more than say, 2 hours, I start to feel guilty and decide I really need to go do something useful.

That bothers me.
I agree 100% on this issue of constantly being productive.

The only 'free time' I allow is cycling several hours a week. But I justify it as actually being productive, because keeping fit means a hopefully longer life... to then be more productive in absolute terms.
2 or 3 projects always on the go- switch to one project when the other is delayed/ waiting for others to come back etc.

To answer wwise on how to work with this, I "cope" by enjoying cooking the evening meal every day- a nice 30 minute 'S' break.

Who wants the alternative? Some people spend decades not actually doing anything and then look back with regret.

[Nomad]

You do learn to slow down a bit as you get older. For me, the pattern apprehension got bigger, and I learned to pace myself. I reached a point where I realized that had an amazing amount of experience and knowledge compared to the folks i grew up with. My roommate, who has a significant amount of education and is a teacher asks me things about her specialty all the time, because she can't keep up with developments AND nursemaid a bunch of high school kids, her subject interest me, and I do quite a bit of research for her. You learn to work more slowly, and to fit pieces better.

It comes to a frantic rush for knowledge, then a slowing to consider what to do with what you know. The answers I'm personally seeing are what most call "the simple things"

P.S. I mean no offense, and I'm not picking on you, but it was Sisyphus who had to push the rock. Prometheus stole fire from the Gods and gave it to man, and was sentenced to having his liver eaten by birds for eternity.

INTJ's are far more likely to be chained to the rock, IMHO. :)

-Nomad

[Amaranth]

It comes to a frantic rush for knowledge, then a slowing to consider what to do with what you know. The answers I'm personally seeing are what most call "the simple things"

Yup, that's what I keep coming back to as well. It's a good pattern, I think - or as good as it gets for INTJs. :thumbsup:

[chocky]

This is one of the most telling things that lead me to suspect I'm not really an INTP - I can totally relate to the goal obsession described here. I have to achieve, and then as soon as I do, or even before the first project is completed, I have the next thing in sight. I can't bear to relax or bask in my accomplishments. Part of me is convinced that if I relax that the whole world will end.

Basically, every single thing I do has to take me a step closer to my goals. There are no end to goals. There is no end to learning.

And I know my perspective is warped, but I'm unable to see what of value can be learned from being relaxed.

[wwise]

Thanks for the clarification on Sisyphus - my bad (actually another authors bad but I didn't look it for verification). It is somewhat comforting to know that there are other folks who feel the need for some sort of knowledge - rush full in to it to absorb as much as possible - then lose interest or step back to assess. I do this alot - I decide to learn a language and spend lots of time with Rosetta Stone, then I reach a point and just stop. I decide to get a degree, get part in to it, get bored, and stop.

I kind of feel like I am never destined to be a specialist in any one thing, but a generalist in everything that interests me. I really enjoy a subject matter until the details start to bog me down, then I'm done with it. Are you guys like that too?

[rwyatt365]

So I just took the Jung Typology test tonight and determined that I'm an INTJ. This makes complete sense to me and I identify with about 95% of the descriptions that I've seen online. One post compared us to Prometheus - the mythical god who was required to constantly push a boulder up a hill and allow it to roll back to the bottom. This seems so much like me - always looking for the next achievement, the next thing to conquer, the next task to take on and yet never cresting the hill. This is so tiring and I would love to relax at some point, but there is no accomplishment in relaxing. I keep trying to reach to the next level and keep thinking that eventually I'm going to get 'there', wherever 'there' may be. People tell me that I'm very successful, but I don't feel successful because I haven't gotten 'there' yet. Any ideas how to work with this? How do you move beyond this or will we always feel unfulfilled???
Based on your post, and those of others on the forum I feel somewhat like a hybrid. In some ways I am goal-oriented; seeing the next target, working to achieve it, being successful, then repeating. The difference is that I stop and "take stock" of my accomplishment – in effect, enjoy the view from the top of the mountain for a moment before finding the next summit. I take great joy in stopping to relish the fruits of my labor (even if just for a moment). This is not something that I learned through age, but something that I've always done.

I think that there is something within the INTJ psyche that makes us shy away from self- congratulation. It's almost as if we're afraid to step back and say, "Damn, I'm good!", without feeling somewhat guilty. Yes, we feel we're smarter, more rational, even better than most other people but this "little voice" inside tells us to not broadcast that. The trouble is, most people can pick up on that vibe and label us as arrogant and self-important anyway. So why not own up to your accomplishments and pat yourself on the back once in a while?

I kind of feel like I am never destined to be a specialist in any one thing, but a generalist in everything that interests me. I really enjoy a subject matter until the details start to bog me down, then I'm done with it. Are you guys like that too?
you are not a generalist, you are a modern Renaissance Man! Go into whatever strikes your fancy, as deeply as you desire to do so. Specialization for it's own sake, to me, is anti-knowledge; you know more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing! Don't be afraid to broaden your horizons.

[Smacknrat]

you are not a generalist, you are a modern Renaissance Man! Go into whatever strikes your fancy, as deeply as you desire to do so. Specialization for it's own sake, to me, is anti-knowledge; you know more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing! Don't be afraid to broaden your horizons.

I agree with this. Of course, many SJs and even my INTP friend are big believers in specialization. For a while it had me wondering. I think that having a deep broad experience to things broadens possibilities (intuition) and since this is a primary preference, this is what is used and rationalized.

That said. The market and modern capitalism doesn't really reward the "jack of all trades". When a company is small, they benefit from having people being able to do many things. As it grows, specialization is employed. However, there are irreplaceable benefits from being so broad.

I think they call people that are driven to be a "Renaissance Man" as Scanners. Anyone back me up on this with any good info?

[rwyatt365]

I agree with this. Of course, many SJs and even my INTP friend are big believers in specialization. For a while it had me wondering. I think that having a deep broad experience to things broadens possibilities (intuition) and since this is a primary preference, this is what is used and rationalized.

That said. The market and modern capitalism doesn't really reward the "jack of all trades". When a company is small, they benefit from having people being able to do many things. As it grows, specialization is employed. However, there are irreplaceable benefits from being so broad.

I think they call people that are driven to be a "Renaissance Man" as Scanners. Anyone back me up on this with any good info?
I can't back you up with research, or references, but I can concur with you in regards to the corporate world discounting the "jack of all trades". I've done a lot of things in a lot of technology-related areas over the last 30 years; from programming in a real-time, data acquisition & analysis environment, to people supervision, to project management and more. Given that, I feel imminently confident that I could adapt to any environment and come up to speed in most arenas fairly quickly.

Do people believe that? No. Do people respect that? No. So, when I've been forced (and I do mean forced) to move to a different position I've always been pushed into "lesser" roles. But, invariably, when I get there people start saying things like; "Wow! How did you know that?", and "You picked that up quicker than anyone else that has been in this spot before!". The thing that goes through my mind is, "Well, dumbshit, if you had listend to me in the first place you would have known that I would outperform every Bozo in this department from jump street!", but modesty prevents me from being so brash.

[AnandaMeansBliss]

Wow. Its amazing to see how many of you people think exactly as I do. I feel the same exact way about something I am doing always having to be useful. My biggest issue is with reading. Everything I read has to improve me in some way. In most cases I read non-fiction so I can step away from the book and say "Now I know x, y and z about a, b, and c." I will read fiction if is something that contributes substantially to my inner world of thoughts, ideas and feelings. The only problem with this is that everything is taken so seriously. Everything ends up having to contribute to my development in someway and that gets exhausting. Does anyone else share this?

Also, let us not forget what Camus said about Sisyphus. Sisyphus was the ultimate hero. He was sentenced to the absurd for eternity. He knew there was no meaning in what he was doing. So he created his own meaning. He defied the absurd and embraced life simultaneously.

[Hdier]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh! You only read books for knowledge gain!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Do you listen to music? Do you do anything that doesn't somehow expand your knowledge database?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Meyer]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh! You only read books for knowledge gain!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Do you listen to music? Do you do anything that doesn't somehow expand your knowledge database?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Even music for me is sort of personal growth related. Depending on the song and if I can get into it it sometimes helps me to roll through my intuitions, put me in the desired mood etc.. For instance next time you are planning any sort of enterprise try Tchaikovsky's 'Marche Slave'.

[Hdier]

Do you do anything that isn't practical?!?!

[Paul V]

Do you do anything that isn't practical?!?!

Holy crap, I think you'd hate me.

I don't do anything without a reason, and that reason is, 99% of the time, practical. I don't like acting on impulses, and all my decisions are based on facts, and weighting pros and cons.

[radioactivez0r]

While I read mostly fiction, it's not entirely without unintentional practical results - sometimes I get a better idea of how to craft a character or a world, but I don't get into a novel thinking "what can I gain from this?"

[Hdier]

No, I wouldn't hate you! I'd study you! Do you ever feel stressed, what would you do if you were forced to make a disicion in, say, 10 seconds? How would you react to someone who acts purely on impulse?

[Paul V]

No, I wouldn't hate you! I'd study you! Do you ever feel stressed, what would you do if you were forced to make a disicion in, say, 10 seconds? How would you react to someone who acts purely on impulse?

Wow. Sorry, I tend to forget I'm talking to rational people here.

I constantly feel stressed. I'd try to process the facts concerning the decision as fast as possible in my head, but I'd probably end up going with my intuition. I live around people like that, so I'd ignore that person.

Edit @ below: Answered via PM, so as not to hijack the thread. :)

[Hdier]

Interesting, now when you weigh positives and negatives, would you base it of of a value system, or how practical it is, or what? Also, have you ever tried doing something frivilous to relieve stress? I have tried doing everything practically, but I get to stressed, so I do something like watch TV or play video games or (most often) read (always fiction; normally fantasy; recently Valdemar) for a couple of hours and I stop feeling stressed.

[Meyer]

But aren't those practical ways for dealing with stress?

[Amaranth]

But aren't those practical ways for dealing with stress?

Hehe, exactly. I read fiction, allow myself to get sucked into a computer game, watch a movie, or preoccupy myself with something that *seems* impractical, when really I have a very practical reason for doing it - stress relief! The human mind and body function best when faced with variety and occasional breaks/rest. :thumbsup:

[chocky]

Hehe, exactly. I read fiction, allow myself to get sucked into a computer game, watch a movie, or preoccupy myself with something that *seems* impractical, when really I have a very practical reason for doing it - stress relief! The human mind and body function best when faced with variety and occasional breaks/rest. :thumbsup:

You're so right about that. Wish I could translate such sound knowledge into permitting myself some guilt-free relaxation. Think perhaps I'm addicted to stress.