Do INTJ girls also do the things that normal girls usually do?

[childofprodigy]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

[Mathnerdkid]

Well, I have never done any of those things, but I don't know any other INTJ girls.

[Storm]

It looks like you've described a 13 year old girl, not a woman.

But I do:
wear make-up ( but not every single I time go out)
wear feminine clothes and accessories

[Josephine1012]

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

I'm not INTJ, but I don't do the three bullet items listed above...

Ok, I gossip a little, but it's more of a dissection of someone's behavior, not a "omg, can you believe... blah!"

[Synamon]

No. I suspect you already knew that. Why did you ask the question?

[childofprodigy]

No. I suspect you already knew that. Why did you ask the question?

No, I didn't know that, that's why I asked the question...I was just wondering if such behaviors are integral aspects of femininity

[idem]

None of the above.

[Turkagent]

People in general love to ask rhetorical questions. Sometimes they are annoying as small talk, but i like to answer questions they don't expect answered. As far as those questions for "girls", you described what sounds like a 16-17 year old girl, or maybe a woman in her 20's who is heavy into the fashion scene/business. You won't find them here for the most part. That sort of work doesn't appeal to the INTJ nature.

[LvHmBirth]

No to your list, except possibly talk about obscure things. I like the dissection of motivations, and try to make it make sense. I do know other INTJ women who do wear makeup, but always tastefully applied, and never the Tammy Faye look.

I do like to think that I do things that "normal" girls do, though: eat, sleep, make friends, find love, experience life, find my purpose, etc.

[azelismia]

uh no, I agree it sounds like a 13 year old girl but unfortunately I think some of those things do last longer into life for some women. I was never really like that though.

[Synamon]

No, I didn't know that, that's why I asked the question...I was just wondering if such behaviors are integral aspects of femininity
I'm female, and feminine, and wouldn't describe it as any of the things on your list. Femininity is in the eye of the beholder.

[childofprodigy]

LoL, just to clear up confusions, I'm 19, so the girls around me do stuff like that

[playthestatic]

I admit, when I was in my early teens I did read a number of celebrity magazines. I'm 18 now, and I do wear makeup - not much, and only on special occasions, but I do nonetheless. I'm not overly concerned with the way I look - I have more pressing things to worry about - but I do carry a small pocket comb around to keep my hair looking presentable. I try to give myself 'girly' time now and then, but it doesn't come very naturally.

Love and peace? What? XD

[MusicWorld]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc (No)
-Wearing makeup. (A little bit if I am dressed smartly)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc (No)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc (No)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) (No)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch (No)
-All about love and peace, etc (?? Don't get this one)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (Utterly incapable of chitchatting).

I also think you knew. (OK - your age explains things)

[childofprodigy]

Any teenage/20-age INTJ girls here?

[Synamon]

Any teenage/20-age INTJ girls here?
You do know that we all were teenage INTJs at one point, right? I'd wager that most of us didn't do those things then either.

[childofprodigy]

You do know that we all were teenage INTJs at one point right? I'd wager that most of us didn't do those things then either.

Yeah but times change....There were no celebrity magazines 500 years ago were they?

[idem]

Yes, I am a teenage female INTJ. I have no desire to do most of those things. I sincerely hope that you realize that not all females are like that.

[Josephine1012]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

I believe you might be introducing a little bias in the way you're asking these questions. Your phrasing makes the activity sound inherently shallow.

So I'm going to try a slightly different version, that seeks to obtain the same type of information (I'm assuming that you are actually interested in getting this information instead of just messing around and asking a question where you know exactly what kind of answer you're going to get simply because of the way you asked it):

-Do you follow fashion and current trends by reading magazines?
-Do you buy celebrity gossip literature?

(Please note that the two question above are not in the same category)

-Do you wear makeup and do you worry about putting her self together?
-Are you interested in dressing fashionably?
(this includes shoes, clothes, accessories)
-Do you like to go shopping?

(i'm not going to touch the next two since they make no sense to me)

-Do you find yourself gossiping and engaging in small talk?

[childofprodigy]

I believe you might be introducing a little bias in the way you're asking these questions. Your phrasing makes the activity sound inherently shallow.

So I'm going to try a slightly different version, that seeks to obtain the same type of information (I'm assuming that you are actually interested in getting this information instead of just messing around and asking a question where you know exactly what kind of answer you're going to get simply because of the way you asked it):

-Do you follow fashion and current trends by reading magazines?
-Do you buy celebrity gossip literature?

(Please note that the two question above are not in the same category)

-Do you wear makeup and do you worry about putting her self together?
-Are you interested in dressing fashionably?
(this includes shoes, clothes, accessories)
-Do you like to go shopping?

(i'm not going to touch the next two since they make no sense to me)

-Do you find yourself gossiping and engaging in small talk?

LOL, Oh Josephine...You are such a wonderful person

I admit that there's a slight male bias to the phrasing of the question, and it wasn't because I think those activities are shallow. It's just that those activities would seem weird if a guy were to do it (thus weird in a male point of view) and seem to be things that only girls would do (or feminine guys).

And I've never met an INTJ girl (a girl whom I'm 100% sure is INTJ), so I seriously don't know LOL

Oh and regarding the love and peace part...You see (and I'm talking about general trends here, not an All Xs are Ys statement) guys are about sex and war, but girls seem to be the opposite, that is, that they are about love and peace.

By sex and war, I mean that when guys search for girlfriends (especially at this age), he's more interested in her physical attractiveness rather than her personality due to the fact that he wants to have sex with her more than everything else. On the other hand, when girls look for boyfriends, they are actually interested in what the guy is like as a person rather than mere physical attractiveness: whether or not he will be faithful mate and will care about her. So girls want love more than sex whereas guys want sex more than love.

Also guys tend to be more egocentric, violent, competitive, and conflict oriented (ie most violent crimes are committed by men, men are more interested in violent video games, etc) whereas girls tend to be more cooperative, selfless, and interested in win-win situations rather than zero sum games. That's what I mean by the 'peace' part.

Lol :P

[Storm]

Ok, I will answer the questions without the bias:
-Do you follow fashion and current trends by reading magazines?
No.

-Do you buy celebrity gossip literature?
No

-Do you wear makeup and do you worry about putting her self together
I sometimes wear makeup. I try to put myself together in the morning.

-Are you interested in dressing fashionably?
(this includes shoes, clothes, accessories)
Yes. I try to dress fasionably, but not trendy. I buy clothing which will make me look respectable, feminine (note: feminine does not always mean sexy), and showcase my individual taste.

-Do you like to go shopping?
When I do go shopping (once a season), I enjoy it. I do not go shopping simply for the hell of it. I like to go when I need something.

-Do you find yourself gossiping and engaging in small talk?
I try not to engage in gossip as I find it rude. But it is tempting and I do it more than I would like. I do engage in small talk - not all conversations can be about the meaning of life. On a side, show me a man who claims he does not engage in gossip and I will show you a liar. Sentiments like "Did you hear Suzy is the football team's bicycle? That girl's a total slut. Wish I were on the football team," are gossip.



By sex and war, I mean that when guys search for girlfriends (especially at this age), he's more interested in her physical attractiveness rather than her personality due to the fact that he wants to have sex with her more than everything else. On the other hand, when girls look for boyfriends, they are actually interested in what the guy is like as a person rather than mere physical attractiveness: whether or not he will be faithful mate and will care about her. So girls want love more than sex whereas guys want sex more than love.

This is because of your age. Once you hit a certain age (typically sometime during the 20s) men should start caring more about "marriage-material" in women, rather than their cup size. Of course, some men never hit this level of maturity, neither do some women. But, the vast majority do.

[Nikita]

-Do you follow fashion and current trends by reading magazines?
I'll read about fashion, but I don't follow trends.

-Do you buy celebrity gossip literature?
No. But I will read it in a doctor's office if I'm bored.

-Do you wear makeup and do you worry about putting yourself together?
I rarely wear makeup or worry about being put together. My style is simple and casual and requires little effort.

-Are you interested in dressing fashionably?
Nope. I wear what I like, damn the trends.

-Do you like to go shopping?
No. If I go to a store, it's to get something specific. I get it and get out. It irks me when other people want to go with me because I know they'll waste my time by wanting to look around. The one exception to shopping would be a book store. I stay out of those when I don't have money to burn because it's like letting a kid loose into a candy store.

-Do you find yourself gossiping and engaging in small talk?
As to gossip, I try not to say anything that I would not say to the person's face if prompted directly. As to small talk, not voluntarily.


By sex and war, I mean that when guys search for girlfriends (especially at this age), he's more interested in her physical attractiveness rather than her personality due to the fact that he wants to have sex with her more than everything else. On the other hand, when girls look for boyfriends, they are actually interested in what the guy is like as a person rather than mere physical attractiveness: whether or not he will be faithful mate and will care about her. So girls want love more than sex whereas guys want sex more than love.

Also guys tend to be more egocentric, violent, competitive, and conflict oriented (ie most violent crimes are committed by men, men are more interested in violent video games, etc) whereas girls tend to be more cooperative, selfless, and interested in win-win situations rather than zero sum games. That's what I mean by the 'peace' part.

Love vs. Sex:
I do care about the substance of the man's character, but I also have to be physically attracted to him. I want physical, sexual, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual attraction and connection. But I'm also not looking for booty calls. In the context of love, I want extreme amounts of sex. But I refuse to go there with strangers or people who are not right for me.

Peace vs. War:
I have a selfless streak as well as a selfish streak. In the context of competition, I like to win. I tend towards violence and competitiveness as opposed to wishy-washy middle of the road politics in games. Taking this out of games and into life, some situations are better served by seeking that win-win compromise, others are zero sum out of necessity. I am comfortable with either.

[Neom4a1]

I sincerely hope that you realize that not all females are like that.
I would assume so, but I would also assume that childofprodigy at least knows some girls who are like this, possibly a majority. I will assume you weren't offended, but I will say that there are a lot of girls like this (at least as far as teens go), and about 70% of the ones I know behave this way, some to an extreme degree. I think, however, that the original point of the topic was that childofprodigy wanted to know if INTJ girls/women behaved differently from their peers in reference to traits that are almost universally female (meaning that they carry across personality types). In other words, do all females have certain traits that they are born with (or take to because of peer pressure), or do INTJ girls differ from the norm in some way. I am sorry if I have misinterpreted your statement, which, as you may have noticed, is an easy thing to do on the interwebz™.

[countrygirl]

I'm an ISFJ and was never into those things as a teenagers. When I was 20, I was in the military part time and working security.

[Reganon]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

I don't do any of those things, and I have no desire to start liking them.

[aqua9air]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc (No)
-Wearing makeup (Unless it's for job interview, company event or other occasions)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc (No)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc (No)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (No)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch (No)
-All about love and peace, etc (No)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (No)

[blckprljinju]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

i have done all of the above at my most extremely stressed out state.

i tried wearing makeup purely out of curiosity (why do women fuss over them so much?), but i never get the "right look" anyways and look like i could kill someone with my eyes, and it takes too much effort, so i rarely use them.

i find that when i am utterly stressed out and incompetent, i start fussing over how i look, what i am wearing, and all of those related to "sensory functions". normally (in a healthy state of mind), it's my parents who fuss over how i look (they always tell me i look like a bum), but when i am stressed out, i can't help but look at my physical appearance; almost like i'm trying to blame the reason for my incompetence on how i look.

it's not a fun place to be in, though.

[JoshuaFairtex]

I can sense a tone of a few select female posters becoming offended over his post for stereotyping as hard as he did, quite entertaining :P

[auriga vega]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc (No, except when I have absolutely nothing else to read)
-Wearing makeup (No, unless for a very very BIG occasion)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc (No)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc (No)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (No, although I enjoy shopping when I need to buy something)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch (What the heck, who does that?)
-All about love and peace, etc (No)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (No, although I do get into those things occasionally)

[Mozzes]

OP has a pretty warped view of females if that is what he thinks they're all into.

[IceDream]

The only thing on that list that I do, is wear make up. It's part of the corporate wardrobe. When I was a teenager, I didn't do any of those things.

[amberlinen]

...I was just wondering if such behaviors are integral aspects of femininity


Are ignorance and disrespect integral aspects of masculinity?

No I wouldn't assume that just because I saw some male human posting several ignorant and disrespectful posts today.

So please don't assume anything just because you are surrounded by TV shows, peer pressure, and girlie girls.

[Zombicide]

He's not just asking about the specific questions used as examples in the description. "ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean" "etc"

What connotations commonly associated with femininity do INTJ women share with other women? That's what he's asking, not necessarily for anyone to check off the list for which of those they do and do not do.

[childofprodigy]

Are ignorance and disrespect integral aspects of masculinity?

No I wouldn't assume that just because I saw some male human posting several ignorant and disrespectful posts today.

So please don't assume anything just because you are surrounded by TV shows, peer pressure, and girlie girls.


LOL people jeez I never said ALL girls are like that....as I've said before, these are not "All Xs are Ys" statements, but general trends that I observe from the girls that are around me (who are mostly teenagers)...stop pride and prejudicing me...it breaks my heart...I'm a very nice person :D

[Synamon]

I can sense a tone of a few select female posters becoming offended over his post for stereotyping as hard as he did, quite entertaining :P
The reason for questioning what he was after with his questions is best answered by this:
OP has a pretty warped view of females if that is what he thinks they're all into.

[childofprodigy]

The reason for questioning what he was after with his questions is best answered by this:

LOL....**cries**....oh Synamon...why are you doing this to me...please have mercy....

[Synamon]

LOL....**cries**....oh Synamon...why are you doing this to me...please have mercy....
Doing what? I'm just making an effort to understand. I assumed you were doing the same thing.

No, I didn't know that, that's why I asked the question...I was just wondering if such behaviors are integral aspects of femininity
You were questioning what femininity is and came up with this list:
Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?
So here's a question for you. Does your definition of femininity include being obsessed with popular culture, fussy about physical appearance, excessive consumerism, decorative, passive and a gossip?

[childofprodigy]

Doing what? I'm just making an effort to understand. I assumed you were doing the same thing.


You were questioning what femininity is and came up with this list:

So here's a question for you. Does your definition of femininity include being obsessed with popular culture, fussy about physical appearance, excessive consumerism, decorative, passive and a gossip?

LOL, well don't you agree that numerically there are more girls who are into the activities included in the list than men? And if such is true, wouldn't it be rational to deduce that femininity has influence over such behavior?

I'm not upset over this part of the discussion. I'm upset that you quoted someone who says that I may think that ALL girls do this despite my repeated attempt to explain otherwise, thus framing myself as an ignorant bigot, even though I'm not. I know statistics. I never believe that ALL the members of a group of people do certain things. A large number of them may do, but that is not justification to believe that ALL of them do.

[AliTree]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
i don't really "read" fashion magazine; i buy them and make collages and draw from different pictures. ha.

-Wearing makeup
yes, i wear makeup.

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
i don't really obsess, per say. i mean i know the majority of designers and stuff of that sort. i duno. i don't always think about it but it's a hobby for me.

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
rather, i'm constantly aware of how i look and want to always look my best.

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc.
i only go if i'm going to buy something or if my friend asks me to go w/ them to help them shop. so no.

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
no. i do doodle a lot though. i draw people smoking most of the time. or monsters vomiting.

-All about love and peace, etc
yeahhhno. dumb.

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc
i'm very nosy and like knowing everything going on so i get gossip sometimes.
and yes, i love having interesting conversations with interesting people.

[Anreader]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc

I agree that these should be separated. I do read fashion magazines. They are frequently filled with interesting anecdotes about important people like Eleanor Roosevelt, or personal stories from interesting people who are not "celebs". I am specifically speaking of Vogue. I do not read celebrity drivel.

-Wearing makeup
I do wear makeup. More like covergirl ads and less like KISS.

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
I like these things but I do not obsess.

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
I am not in any way concerned about my own beauty. I am concerned about meeting standard grooming requirements for my age and station.

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean). Nope Im an online shopper.

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
Have never done this.

-All about love and peace, etc
I am probably more violent than you.

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc
I probably would except I dislike almost everyone.

[Frag]

Well if I answered for my gf..

Reading fashion magazines
Nope.
Wearing makeup
A very little.
obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
Not obsessed. Keeps very presentable though.
Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
Not as far as I can tell..
Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc
Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
All about love and peace, etc
No.
Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc
Only if obscure == abstract and Frag is hopelessly out of his depth. :(

Most of those things would drive me completely up the wall, so it is very good.

[Lucid]

No, I didn't know that, that's why I asked the question...I was just wondering if such behaviors are integral aspects of femininity

I do wear make up... other than that... no. And very few of the adult females I know do any of that, regardless of type. Especially the heart thing.
None of those behaviors are integral aspects of feminity and I somewhat doubt that there are any such things.

LOL, well don't you agree that numerically there are more girls who are into the activities included in the list than men? And if such is true, wouldn't it be rational to deduce that femininity has influence over such behavior?

No. This is known as the False Cause fallicy. It may have a correlation, but these behaviors are not caused by having a vagina and breasts. Or a female brain.

You're encountering the prickliness you are because this is a forum full of INTJ females. We get very frustrated when men (and it happens on this forum ALL THE TIME - possibly because INTJ males have little experience with women, or possibly because INTJs are famous for their confirmation biases) start talking about how all women are like this and it's because of their biology or their hormones and they're so irrational or mostly stupid or emotional or blah blah blah blah blah.

It gets very tiresome. We don't like it.
You should read any of the 25 or so "What are INTJ females like?" threads or just PAY ATTENTION to what the female INTJs say about these topics in other threads. All your questions have already been answered repeatedly elsewhere on the forum.

In fact, most women do not match up with many of the things you list, so I have to ask - do you know any women who are not in their teens other than your mother, teachers or older female relatives?

Actually... even when I was a teenager I didn't know girls like the ones you seem to be describing. So do you know any women at all? More than in a passing, casual way that is. Or do you get your information about them from Sex in the City and Meg Ryan movies?

[childofprodigy]

No. This is known as the False Cause fallicy. It may have a correlation, but these behaviors are not caused by having a vagina and breasts. Or a female brain.

The "correlation does not imply causation" fallacy only says that just because there is correlation, it does not necessitate that a causation occurs. Thus to conclude that correlation equals causation is fallacious.

However, it is EQUALLY FALLACIOUS to conclude that there is NO causation whatsoever, which is what you're doing, simply by appealing to the false cause fallacy.

For example, let's say someone is investigating the relationship between X variable : Gender and Y variable : breast size, with 1 being female and 0 being male. It turns out that there is positive correlation between gender and breast size. It is fallacious to assume that being female causes larger breast size simply by this correlation, but it is ALSO fallacious to assume that being female does NOT cause larger breast size by the same fallacy.

Your argument sounds like a counter-induction, which is the antithesis of rationality. Although correlations do not definitively prove causation, it is nevertheless EVIDENCE that causation MAY have happened rather than otherwise. It does not mean that there really IS causation, but it is nevertheless valid evidence that a causation MAY have occurred.

Also, why are people getting offended by this? There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG in doing the things that I listed in the original post. In fact it's GOOD to take care of your appearance. It's GOOD to stay as beautiful as possible. It makes evolutionary sense. Guys are more likely to pick up pretty girls than otherwise, so you are more likely to mate. I'm sorry if my wordings made it sound more negative than it really should, but really there's nothing much I can do to defend myself besides this.

[Lucid]

The "correlation does not imply causation" fallacy only says that just because there is correlation, it does not necessitate that a causation occurs. Thus to conclude that correlation equals causation is fallacious.

However, it is EQUALLY FALLACIOUS to conclude that there is NO causation whatsoever, which is what you're doing, simply by appealing to the false cause fallacy.

No, and I think you need to go back and check what the fallacy actually means. It's not fallacious to assume there is no causation until proven otherwise. Scientifically, we do not believe in things until a hypothesis has been proven correct. I'm not saying that there is no correlation, only that your assumption of causation based on correlation is fallacious. Your logic is flawed and it must be destroyed. I'm sorry.

For example, let's say someone is investigating the relationship between X variable : Gender and Y variable : breast size, with 1 being female and 0 being male. It turns out that there is positive correlation between gender and breast size. It is fallacious to assume that being female causes larger breast size simply by this correlation, but it is ALSO fallacious to assume that being female does NOT cause larger breast size by the same fallacy.

Then please explain the phenomenon of man-boobies. I think your understanding of the fallacy in question could maybe use some work. I don't mean to offend you, but you've just got it wrong. It is not fallacious to refrain from assuming anything until you have something more than, as I said, pop culture stereotypes to work with.

Your argument sounds like a counter-induction, which is the antithesis of rationality. Although correlations do not definitively prove causation, it is nevertheless EVIDENCE that causation MAY have happened rather than otherwise. It does not mean that there really IS causation, but it is nevertheless valid evidence that a causation MAY have occurred.

Casual observation and pop-culture stereotyping is not evidence of anything at all. Consider these questions: what is your sample size? Why do you think most women do these things? What is your evidence that any women do these things? What outside opinons or evidence have you consulted? Have you read any professional studies on these matters? Or are you just being wildly speculative and then getting upset when people tell you that it won't fly on this board? The fact that, in your (seemingly narrow) experience some women do these things, is not evidence of anything at all, other than the fact that you know some women who do them. And no logical back flips on your part can change it.

Also, why are people getting offended by this? There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG in doing the things that I listed in the original post. In fact it's GOOD to take care of your appearance. It's GOOD to stay as beautiful as possible. It makes evolutionary sense. Guys are more likely to pick up pretty girls than otherwise, so you are more likely to mate. I'm sorry if my wordings made it sound more negative than it really should, but really there's nothing much I can do to defend myself besides this.

I explained why you're getting the reactions you're getting. And as of this post, you seem to be the most upset person posting in this thread thus far. Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with women doing those things doesn't mean that all people (especially all women) will agree with you. Your wording is fine. It's the fact that most women (of any type... and ESPECIALLY INTJ women) get offended when people imply that all we care about is gossip, fashion, shopping, drawing hearts on things, and superficial appearances. It's like saying something like, "Why are all Mexicans lazy?" and then getting confused and saying "I didn't say there was anything wrong with being lazy!" when people get offended.
Whether you think there's anything wrong with it or not, it's insulting to our intelligence. And to yours.

Also, if by normal you mean non-INTJ, I think you will find that most 'normal' girls don't do these things much either. Or that a 'normal girl' who reads People magazine and likes to shop for shoes also likes to watch football and play video games. And a 'normal' male who doesn't like to shop for shoes and does like to watch football might also like to gossip.

You should stat looking at people more as individuals and less as stereotypes personified.

[Mozzes]

(and it happens on this forum ALL THE TIME - possibly because INTJ males have little experience with women, or possibly because INTJs are famous for their confirmation biases) start talking about how all women are like this and it's because of their biology or their hormones and they're so irrational or mostly stupid or emotional or blah blah blah blah blah.

It gets very tiresome. We don't like it.
You should read any of the 25 or so "What are INTJ females like?" threads or just PAY ATTENTION to what the female INTJs say about these topics in other threads. All your questions have already been answered repeatedly elsewhere on the forum.

My favorite is when somebody starts a thread asking for female input and some dude who's never even had an intimate relationship before channels his anima and tosses his opinion on the matter in like it should matter. I don't know, seems absurd.

[childofprodigy]

No, and I think you need to go back and check what the fallacy actually means. It's not fallacious to assume there is no causation until proven otherwise. Scientifically, we do not believe in things until a hypothesis has been proven correct. I'm not saying that there is no correlation, only that your assumption of causation based on correlation is fallacious. Your logic is flawed and it must be destroyed. I'm sorry.


OMG, you're the one who got it all wrong! You can never ever ever ever ever prove that any theory is conclusively correct. That is just impossible. How do you definitively prove the Big Bang theory? How do you definitively prove the theory of Evolution? You can't. You can only rely on the evidence that support these theories. Just like excavating dinosaur fossils serve as evidence of the theory of evolution, seeing more girls interested in my list of activities is also evidence that the "femininity influences these behavior" theory is true.

There is an integral aspect of scientific theories that is required in order to be considered scientific and that is FALSIFIABILITY! Scientists do not accept the intelligent design theory, and one of the reasons why they don't is because it's UNFALSIFIABLE! Theories can only be falsified through controlled experiments via the use of modus tollens. It cannot be conclusively proved that it's true. It can only be conclusively proved that it's false!

Thus your belief that it is justified to assume all theories are false until it is proven right is not realistic. If that is so, you will be extremely closed minded and will never accept ANY theory as true because it's impossible to definitely prove theories as true.

I'm sorry, your logic is flawed, and I must destroy it.

Also, your male boobies rebuttal does nothing to destroy my breast experiment example. I did not say that gender CAUSES larger breast. All I said is that it's fallacious to conclude both ways, nothing more nothing less.

[Lucid]

OMG, you're the one who got it all wrong! You can never ever ever ever ever prove that any theory is conclusively correct. That is just impossible. How do you definitively prove the Big Bang theory? How do you definitively prove the theory of Evolution? You can't. You can only rely on the evidence that support these theories. Just like excavating dinosaur fossils serve as evidence of the theory of evolution, seeing more girls interested in my list of activities is also evidence that the "femininity influences these behavior" theory is true.

No... all these things are still theories. They're good theories that have a lot of evidence to back them up. You can believe in a good theory. Maybe my laungage was too general for you. Sorry.

There is an integral aspect of scientific theories that is required in order to be considered scientific and that is FALSIFIABILITY! Scientists do not accept the intelligent design theory, and one of the reasons why they don't is because it's UNFALSIFIABLE! Theories can only be falsified through controlled experiments via the use of modus tollens. It cannot be conclusively proved that it's true. It can only be conclusively proved that it's false!

Thus your belief that it is justified to assume all theories are false until it is proven right is not realistic. If that is so, you will be extremely closed minded and will never accept ANY theory as true because it's impossible to definitely prove theories as true.

I think you're taking me too literally. Perhaps the fault for that is mine.

But. If you know all this about science I'm shocked that you can't see the HUGE flaws in your own thinking and reasoning about gender. The only explanation I can come up with is that you haven't bothered to apply this knowledge to this particular area of thought.

However, assuming causation before adequate evidence has been presented is fallacious. (perhaps this is a better way to put it)
And some men do have large breasts. While some women have very small breasts. Likewise, some women take part in the things you describe, but very few take part in all aspects of them. And while a few men take part in all aspects of your list, most only take part in some.

Also, I think you knew what I meant and are falling back on an argument over semantics because it's all you've got. Also, many of the same semantic points could be brought up in response to your original post. However, I knew what you meant so I didn't think an argument over semantics was really very productive.

I notice you didn't respond to anything in my extremely long post except for my overbroad use of language. Care to try again?

[Karamazov]

My favorite is when somebody starts a thread asking for female input and some dude who's never even had an intimate relationship before channels his anima and tosses his opinion on the matter in like it should matter. I don't know, seems absurd.That's why I usually stay out those threads. It's so ubiquitous in 'General Sociology', someone will have charge for relationship advice.

[Indubitably]

Uhm, speaking as a an individual that is the friend of, and or has dated, a fairly wide cross section (considering their relative rarity) of female INTJs, I would say no, in general they are not obnoxious twits.

Seriously though, not even most teenage girls draw hearts all over everything. This may be something common among ESFJ girls, as they do tend to be overly concerned with how effeminate they are perceived to be, but it is by no means universal.

INTJ women do maintain their appearance, but it is an entirely utilitarian practice. They need to look good in order to get things done because most people are quick to make judgments based on appearance. Besides, men spend at least as much time preening and posturing as women do, it just takes on a different form.

[childofprodigy]

No... all these things are still theories. They're good theories that have a lot of evidence to back them up. You can believe in a good theory. Maybe my laungage was too general for you. Sorry.



I think you're taking me too literally. Perhaps the fault for that is mine.

But. If you know all this about science I'm shocked that you can't see the HUGE flaws in your own thinking and reasoning about gender. The only explanation I can come up with is that you haven't bothered to apply this knowledge to this particular area of thought.

However, assuming causation before adequate evidence has been presented is fallacious. (perhaps this is a better way to put it)
And some men do have large breasts. While some women have very small breasts. Likewise, some women take part in the things you describe, but very few take part in all aspects of them. And while a few men take part in all aspects of your list, most only take part in some.

Also, I think you knew what I meant and are falling back on an argument over semantics because it's all you've got.

I notice you didn't respond to anything in my extremely long post except for my overbroad use of language. Care to try again?

Yes I will but I need to sleep first, school starts tomorrow and I need to sleep.

Secondly, as I repeatedly said before, I never meant to have my statements be interpreted as All Xs are Ys, and I don't believe in such statements. I'm only citing a general trend that seems to have high statistical occurence around the demographics around me, and no I didn't do any systematic data gathering either nor do I have the intention to do so as I have better things to do.

Also, I never said that femininity DID cause the behavior I cited. I only asked a rhetorical question that if you see many girls doing the things that I described, wouldn't it be RATIONAL to believe that it MAY have something to do with femininity rather than otherwise. It may or may not be true, but if someone points a gun to your head and forces you to choose whether or not it's true or false, it's still more rational to choose that it's true because the evidence that you CURRENTLY HAVE suggests so.

Anyways I'll get to you tomorrow ttyl

[Lucid]

My favorite is when somebody starts a thread asking for female input and some dude who's never even had an intimate relationship before channels his anima and tosses his opinion on the matter in like it should matter. I don't know, seems absurd.

Yeah. We get a lot of those. I find that the more mature and familiar with women a particular person is, the less they buy into these stereotypes and the less they buy into the "it's all because of female biology!!" argument. I think that it's common for INTJs to look for scientific reasons for everything and to want to be able to say conclusively, "Ah! Here is the reason for this! It is concrete and absolute!" However, I think that often breaks down when it comes to some of the less concrete sciences, like sociology; especially when it involves anything cultural and this often means gender issues.

Also, a lot of INTJ younger men just don't know many females. Or they don't know them well. Or they only know one or two well. I have noticed that very few of the older posters, or those with a large amount of relationship experience or a large number of female friends have these kinds of views on women though.

Yes I will but I need to sleep first, school starts tomorrow and I need to sleep.

Secondly, as I repeatedly said before, I never meant to have my statements be interpreted as All Xs are Ys, and I don't believe in such statements. I'm only citing a general trend that seems to have high statistical occurence around the demographics around me, and no I didn't do any systematic data gathering either nor do I have the intention to do so as I have better things to do.

Also, I never said that femininity DID cause the behavior I cited. I only asked a rhetorical question that if you see many girls doing the things that I described, wouldn't it be RATIONAL to believe that it MAY have something to do with femininity rather than otherwise. It may or may not be true, but if someone points a gun to your head and forces you to choose whether or not it's true or false, it's still more rational to choose that it's true because the evidence that you CURRENTLY HAVE suggests so.

Anyways I'll get to you tomorrow ttyl

Hmmm. In that case I may have read more into your post than you were saying, or it's possible that you were speaking too broadly. However, I would say that because you know as much as you do about science and the scientific method, you should be able to tell that your sample size isn't large or diverse enough and that your observations are clouded by comfirmation bias and your own expectations and opinions.

So while I think it's probably understandable and very common for people to draw the conclusions you have drawn based on the information you have available, I would not say that it is rational.

Here's where I think we're going wrong. Your original post contained the unstated premise that the things you listed are normal behavior for the majority of non-INTJ women. While 'the majority' isn't the same as 'all' I think it's still a gross overstatement of how many women actually do these things, or do all those things. Or do those things to the exclusion of other, more "masculine" things.

Also, I think it's likely that while you do see women doing those things, your mind takes more note of them, or attaches more significance to them than when you see men doing those things. Or when you see women doing things like voting in an informed way, caring more about politics or their careers than their shoes, building computers, talking about religion or philosophy, studying chemistry, changing a tire, drawing skulls instead of hearts... etc. In other words, I think your initial premise has been shaped by your confirmation bias. It's ok, we are all subject to that at times.

After rereading your initial post I think your phrasing and language does sort of imply that these things are stupid and that they are below you.

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Why don't you mention any of the things that are generally viewed as being more positive and feminine? Your post seems to be saying "Are INTJ women as stupid and annoying as all other women?" Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but it is how you came off. That most women are, as Indubitably aptly described your (possible unintentional) implication, "obnoxious twits."

If you're willing to accept the possibility that your initial premise is false or to say that you maybe didn't mean the initial post in quite the way it came off (and I think both of these are the case, but I don't want to presume to know your mind in the light of all the misunderstanding we've had thus far), then maybe you should do that. Then I think we can have a neat conversation about how INTJ women are different from "normal" women (and we are) and how we are not.

I don't think you did mean to be offensive, but unfortunately your original post has made it so that you're having to spend the entire thread defending your reasoning and repeatedly stating that you didn't mean to be insulting. I think your best course of action would be to say something like, "Whoa, my bad! Let me restate!"

Having said that, a certain amount of the blame does fall with those of us who responded to you with animosity over your original post. We expected you to know better (probably because a lot of the men we deal with do... and this may be part of the reason we continue to interact with them) and so didn't take the time to gently correct the false premise. My bad. :)

stop pride and prejudicing me...it breaks my heart...I'm a very nice person :D

This is probably true. Unfortunately you inadvertantly stepped on a hornets nest of gender issues. *huggles*

[brainysmurf]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc (No)
-Wearing makeup. (A little bit if I am dressed smartly)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc (No)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc (No)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) (No)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch (No)
-All about love and peace, etc (?? Don't get this one)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (Utterly incapable of chitchatting).



Same here, but I wear makeup (natual looking) even when I don't dress up. Maybe that's due to older sisters.

[kira]

No to all, and I think it extends beyond the INTJ type. Check out what other "T" women have to say about this as well. Here's the best article I could find on the subject so far: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Hatsumomo1]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc... (Hell no.)
-Wearing makeup (On some occasions, but it's always very natural.)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc (I do have more shoes than I think I should, but that's about it.)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc (No.)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) (Hell no.)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch (Hell no. Who does that?)
-All about love and peace, etc (What? As opposed to living in a military policed state?)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (Hell no.)

[Allie]

INTJ women do maintain their appearance, but it is an entirely utilitarian practice. They need to look good in order to get things done because most people are quick to make judgments based on appearance. Besides, men spend at least as much time preening and posturing as women do, it just takes on a different form.


So true. :thumbsup:

Bottom line: We do what's comfortable and workable for us, with as little fuss as possible, while producing results and bring about success. Each of us is in a different environment, so the amount of efforts depends.

And yes, do read up on the other INTJ women related threads. There's a wealth of information there. :)

[Tempest]

I'm 20, I'm female, and I do partake in some of these activities.

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
I never have done this, nor do I have any desire to.
-Wearing makeup
I wear makeup every time I go out. I avoid looking like a clown and go for a natural look, though.
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
This is not me at all.
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
If you consider wearing makeup as showing concern over one's beauty, then yes. But as for buying countless beauty products, I've never wasted my money on such things.
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
God no. I loathe shopping.
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
Uh... no. Though I've never seen a grown woman doing this.
-All about love and peace, etc
Yes. What's wrong with this, exactly?
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc
I do this sometimes. I love to hear where the rest of my graduating class is now, especially when the I hear that the ones who made my life a living hell are now pregnant and dropped out of college.

Most of these things do describe young girls, but there are grown women who do many of these things. A good example is my sister, who is 26 and completely obsesses over celebrities, clothes, shoes (especially shoes), style, shopping, etc.

[jikin]

Wow, I don't know where you're meeting all of these "normal" girls, but they seem a bit immature. Even in my highschool there were very few girls who acted like that, regardless of type. Keep in mind that most girls who do act like that usually outgrow it, except, maybe, a few extreme S types.

[NancyS786]

I don't do any of those things - really don't relate to it.

The way I see - When you talk about the serious differences between men and women, I am clearly a woman.

In more casual ways, like appearance and tastes in entertainment, I honestly think I come off more like a man, but not exactly masculine.

I don't get girly girl stuff AT ALL. Though I did when I was say 5 years old, maybe even 7.

[Squirelznflight]

I once spent 7 hours in a hardware store, but I guess that doesn't count.
So no, I don't do aything even vaguely related to that.

[altoid]

I do enjoy fashion to some extent, will check the mirror before I leave, and wear some makeup, but I certainly don't spend much time or money on this. I also hate celebrity gossip. They're just people with public jobs. Why should I care who's dating who? I also hate catty/backstabby gossip, which is what I assume you're talking about. There's a difference, though between talking about what someone else is up to vs. "OMG *look* at that shirt, she looks like a freak!" Girls come in all sorts of different varieties. Don't assume any of those actions are "normal."


Most of these things do describe young girls, but there are grown women who do many of these things. A good example is my sister, who is 26 and completely obsesses over celebrities, clothes, shoes (especially shoes), style, shopping, etc.

Yes, some women seem to be forever 14. I know a few women in their 30's who are STILL like this. I assume they are why women sometimes get categorized with these bad stereotypes.

[Shinqui]

Ladies, please, we have a nineteen year old boy seeking information about the female equivalence to his own personality. Go lightly on him, he is demonstrating some humility, after all.

Peace

[une fille]

I second Shinqui. That was one vicious reaction.







..Not to say that I didn't thoroughly enjoy getting to watch INTJ females verbally abuse another person. I'm usually participating, so this was fun!

[Lucid]

Ladies, please, we have a nineteen year old boy seeking information about the female equivalence to his own personality. Go lightly on him, he is demonstrating some humility, after all.

Peace

I'd like to point out that, in an uncharastic display of kindness I huggled said 19 year old boy. This isn't even the huggles thread. And I'm an INTJ.

[meistergeist]

I am an 18 year old INTJ female. Now, on with the questions!

-Do you follow fashion and current trends by reading magazines?
The only time I pick up a magazine is if I am somewhere I'm not usually. I'll flip through it, take in whatever useless information for awhile, then forget it.


-Do you buy celebrity gossip literature?
Why the hell would I? Look, I don't give a rats ass who's marrying who, or what they got. I, quite frankly, wish that whole industry would quietly topple over. :)


-Do you wear makeup and do you worry about putting her self together?
Makeup is my bane. I am quite capable without it, it would seem. Although I do worry about how "put together" I look if I'm going somewhere or doing something important!


-Are you interested in dressing fashionably?
I'm very interested in starting my own fashion. I often times wish I had the skill/means to make my own clothes.


-Do you like to go shopping?
Almost never. I much prefer the thought of online shopping. ;P


-Do you find yourself gossiping and engaging in small talk?
Hmm... No, not usually. I don't have very many means to, really. When I do talk about other people, it's about what they've done to make me angry, or on much rarer occasions, happy.


All in all, I don't consider myself similar to most of the females I see around me. Most of the time, I really just don't care what they're talking about, because it's usually useless! Sometimes, though, I'll meet a girl who surprises me. I might develop a crush if that happens, just because it's so freaking rare!


...Oh, but I do like to draw hearts. <3

[dalidaisy]

When I was reading this, it got me thinking about the differences between myself & my mother. I have typed her as an ESFJ. I don't know if how I answer these questions is based on my personality type or my upbringing & my general disdain for my mother's personality & views. But, here are my answers, as well as how I would answer for my mother...

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc

Me, nope, unless I'm at my mom's house & trying to distract myself
Mom, yes, she has mounds of them

-Wearing makeup

Me, on occasion
Mom, puts it on as soon as she gets up, whether leaving the house or not

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc

Me, no, I like comfort. I do care how I look, but I am in no way obsessive about what I wear. Now, if we are talking about putting them in order, then my OCD kicks in.
Mom, Yes, she also obsesses about my shoes, handbags, clothes, etc

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc

Me, not really concerned about being beautiful. I do take care of myself & my health. I think of beauty as something other than something superficial & I'm not overly concerned about it
Mom, terribly concerned about what people think of her outward appearance

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)

Me, hell no, I can't stand shopping. I either shop online or know what I'm going for, get it & get out
Mom, too unhealthy for the mall, but loves to spend time at WalMart

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch

Me, haha, never
Mom, not really (this is a bit immature). But, if we are talking about being overly sentimental, yes. She likes to get cards for people all the time. She likes to talk about love.

-All about love and peace, etc

Me, I am peaceful & I love all living things, but it's not what I'm all about
Mom, likes to project the image of caring about love & peace. She loves love & often tells people she will pray for them.

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Me, not a gossip in any way. If something slips out of my mouth, I will usually immediately apologize & retract
Mom, talks about people behind their back, but smiles & talks sweetly to their face

[Uytuun]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc (yes, love to read those to unwind after a stressful day and be appalled at them)
-Wearing makeup (rarely, mascara, eye pencil and lipgloss when I'm feeling fancy)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc (I can get excited about a unique item of clothing, but I don't obsess or OEMGEE about it)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc (no)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) (no, I go clothes shopping 2/3 times per year, preferably on my own)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch (no)
-All about love and peace, etc (no)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (define obscure - I love analysing, sometimes there's a thin line between analysing and gossip)

Do you? Do you?

I'm 22 years old.

[Tempest]

Yes, some women seem to be forever 14. I know a few women in their 30's who are STILL like this. I assume they are why women sometimes get categorized with these bad stereotypes.

I don't think it's always a matter of being forever immature. Many women (and some men, I suppose) read about celebrities as a form of escape, or because they like to see that celebrities aren't perfect. As for shopping, I know my sister does this because she enjoys the satisfaction of making a new purchase and looking good in whatever she just bought. The euphoria that some people feel while shopping is why some people are shopaholics. Personally, I've never felt any kind of euphoria while buying anything, but not all women are the same.

Not to mention that men have their own share of negative stereotypes.

[LionsPride]

I think that the observations are completely justified. I mean they are in direct response to normal male behaviour of the following:
- laughing at fart jokes
- scratching themselves in public
- whistling at women
- watching nascar and
- reading porn

Are INTJ men "normal"? Is this a key characteristic of masculinity? I mean, they didn't have porn mags 500 years go or anything. I think the correlation is true because women don't laugh at fart jokes and anyone who disagrees can go read the Men only thread. If you do, make sure to grab me a beer and leave a fart joke.

[altoid]

I don't think it's always a matter of being forever immature. Many women (and some men, I suppose) read about celebrities as a form of escape, or because they like to see that celebrities aren't perfect. As for shopping, I know my sister does this because she enjoys the satisfaction of making a new purchase and looking good in whatever she just bought. The euphoria that some people feel while shopping is why some people are shopaholics. Personally, I've never felt any kind of euphoria while buying anything, but not all women are the same.

Not to mention that men have their own share of negative stereotypes.


Yeah, after rereading my post I realize I painted with broader strokes than I should have (after kind of accusing the original poster of doing the same thing.) I just had a very specific couple of women in mind who are absolutely immature teenage girls, mentally speaking, but did not convey that well. :)

[amberlinen]

Ladies, please, we have a nineteen year old boy seeking information about the female equivalence to his own personality.

I think this is an important lesson for him, because it is vital for a child to learn what degree of stupidity he could show in public before got beaten up. I'm actually surprised to see in the first page how nice and kind people treat this question.

As for the "all X are not Y" thing he keeps saying --- this does not make things sound better if you think all the non-Y X are "abnormal". This assumption is clearly shown in title with the use of "normal girls"

Of course those are cultural phenomena. How can you read gossip magazines if there's no magazines around? How can you put on makeups and draw hearts on everything if you have to do strong manual labors all day and all night?

Visiting and learning about other cultures can be the first step to open your eyes. There are some tribes where both men and women are fierce warriors; a weakling walking around assuming femininity will be beaten up mercilessly by either a man or a woman. There's also a village where men get to make themselves pretty, visiting and gossiping with other men, and women are doing trade work. You know in any culture a good looking man is always considered more useful than a stubborn and stupid man.

We can all learn something from this thread and other typical "male opinions about females" in this forum: TV shows and peer pressure are really powerful stuff; we should utilize more of them in warfares.

[intjdude]

the only thing i know about INTJ women is that they ALL masturbate to MacGyver ;D

[Frag]

the only thing i know about INTJ women is that they ALL masturbate to MacGyver ;D
Is there are prize for finding a counterexample?

[searcher]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

No, not unless for some kind of random social experiment, no, no, no, HELL NO, no and no.

[intjdude]

Is there are prize for finding a counterexample?

sure, it doesn't change the fact that they all masturbate to MacGuyer but I'd still like to hear it



No, not unless for some kind of random social experiment, no, no, no, HELL NO, no and no.

Come on, even i doodle hearts on everything including term papers, job applications, gun permits, etc.

[Lucid]

sure, it doesn't change the fact that they all masturbate to MacGuyer but I'd still like to hear it

Who is MacGuyver?


Come on, even i doodle hearts on everything including term papers, job applications, gun permits, etc.

Ok... I admit it! I doodle hearts on my gun permits too. :embarassed:

[Shinqui]

I think this is an important lesson for him, because it is vital for a child to learn what degree of stupidity he could show in public before got beaten up. I'm actually surprised to see in the first page how nice and kind people treat this question.

I doubt very much that any nineteen year old male INTJ would need, or even benefit from yet another beating.

For the OP, here are my observations on female INTJ's in regards to you're original question.

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc

Perhaps for research, should they choose to be fashionable in order to obtain a goal which would be easier should they conform, or out of boredom in a Doctor's office, or for entertainment value (something to laugh at)

-Wearing makeup

Little to none, perhaps a lot of this is a knee jerk reaction to the enforced brand of femininity that our culture creates. You may see some in the bedroom, should it be important to you, and should she feel like it. Don't hold your breath though.

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc

Ambivalence, or calculation of effect, either way, this probably took very little time for them.

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc

Extremely self assured and realistic concerning their physical appearance, the same way they tend to be self assured about anything else they made decisions about.

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)

Most likely impossible, after all, can you stroll in a crowded public place looking at meaningless things for 7 hours, or even 1 hour? I suspect that many INTJ women subscribe to the same shopping philosophy I do, which is know what you want and go get it quickly, I call it a "tactical strike".

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch

That is an emotional response to the rampaging hormones of youth, I doubt you'll find any self respecting INTJ girl doing this. They have far better things to do with their time.

-All about love and peace, etc

While the all encompassing motherhood that is femininity will most likely shine through in this area, you may find it demonstrated more in their knowledge of self defense rather than pacifism.

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Of course not, gossip has little to no value to intellectuals, and of course, the obscure is fascinating, don't you agree? However, I do not know if female INTJ's still require the 5000 words per day that is typical of most women. If they do, it would be more along the lines of 5000 words of questioning, discussing, dissecting and understanding.

These questions are obviously a very tender point for many INTJ women, you will come to understand this more if you spend some time thinking of the societal pressures brought to bear on women to be a "pretty little thing" coming to bear on INTJ women, who are truly fierce inside.

As always, these opinions are purely subjective and based only on my own observations of life on this planet. However, at this point, I refuse to allow anyone to beat on Childofprodigy any further.

Childofprodigy, do not disappoint me.

[intjdude]

Who is MacGuyver?


MacGyver is this guy
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cool guy... :)

[Deliberator]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

None of the above, except maybe chitchatting about obscure things (which isn't really inherently feminine).

I recently started experimenting more with makeup as I prepare to enter the "real world" (I graduate in May). This attempt to look older by slathering my face with chemicals and colors I don't really need is meant to ward off the bias and disrespect of older people I may encounter who automatically believe that young pretty female=superficial ignorant flake.

[Lucid]

MacGyver is this guy
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cool guy... :)

Oh...

Well I can't say much for the 1987 hair and clothes, but I once dated a guy a lot like that. At least, he could repair a Chevy Nova radiator with a Dodge Dart radiator (in the back seat for some reason), a wallet chain, a length of wire and urine.

[xxtsubasa]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

jeez, people don't read. notice how he said GIRLS, not WOMEN. so he's asking about teens to young women, i believe.

i do some of the above. i'm 18 and INTJ. i wear makeup, read some fashion mags (though i don't obsess over copying the latest trends or stuff, i read for fun), i like shopping but NOT for too long (usually around 4-5 hours max), and i generally groom myself properly (my logic is that beauty is power, looks matter more than we think). but i couldn't care less for gossip, love/peace, heart symbols, etc.

[schwartzie]

I would like to take issue with the op's vocabulary: "normal" vs commonplace.

intjs (yes even female intjs) are perfectly natural, normal, ordinary mortals. As much as it may appear that we are, say, godlike or otherwise extra-ordinary and not mere norms, well... yr wrong, we are.

We are, of course, also rare.

[wendytwtee]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc (never!!!)
-Wearing makeup(when i feel like it and it's not inconvenient)
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc(nope, hardly)
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc(nuh-uh)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)(err, no, i go alone to recharge. In my opinion, if no one there knows me or i don't meet anyone i know, I've been alone all that time, as long as i don't talk)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch(NO)
-All about love and peace, etc(N0)
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc (and No)

Btw, i'm 18

[zibber]

Define "normal"?

[jadefalcon]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc

Do you? Do you?


I doubt you will get a confirmation on these three things: they are S traits. The INTJ females I have met in life (1) and seen on this board will do the standard "female" thing of makeup, etc but they are not obsessing over the details, something I really like.

[mel]

strangely enough, I tick the majority of those boxes. thats odd, coz im pretty INTJ in terms of personality. I guess its all part of a girl's way of camoflaging, you know, blending in with other so called "normal" girls.

Anyways, whats wrong with trying to improve the way you look? for those INTJ girls out there who dont tick many boxes, I think you should try harder.

btw, part of me (and possibly other INTJ ppl) feel this constant need to improve themselves. embracing your feminism through shoes, bags, makeup is one way of improving physical flaws

Although, I dont draw heart symbols... or talk s**t about love and peace...thats a bit pre teen/miss universe dont you think?

[probity]

Read fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc?
No.
Wear makeup?
Yes, almost everyday.
Obsess over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc?
I love shoes, my interest in everything else, handbags/clothes/etc, revolves around whether they go with my shoes or not. So sure, I'm typically feminine in that respect.
Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc?
Not really. I value being beautiful but it's not a priority that can't be thrown out when its inconvenient.
Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc?
Not unless I'm looking for something specific (and I usually am) but can't find it. Otherwise I rarely go to the mall.
Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch?
No... I prefer polygons.
All about love and peace, etc?
Love is nice. Peace, not so much.
Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc?
No.

[Anreader]

I do not masturbate to MacGuyver, but maybe I should.

[intjdude]

I do not masturbate to MacGuyver, but maybe I should.

definitely :)

[Antares]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc No
-Wearing makeup Not unless I'm forced
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc Not really.
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc No
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) No. I get sick of malls after about an hour.
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch No. I tend to draw stickmen on an island with a coconut tree, looking completely bored and surrounded by sharks in the nearby waters on my homework assignments.
-All about love and peace, etc Eh?
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc Not really.

Do you? Do you?

[Mesonoxian]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc

no


-Wearing makeup

sometimes, yeah. understated though. no fingernail polish or eyelash curlers if you know what I mean.

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc

it's worrisome not knowing what goes with what. It kind of spins me out thinking about it. I prefer plain things that I know "probably go together" so I don't make a bad guess, and have a lot of black shoes. I like comfortable things to wear, no structured suits or anything.

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc

I think I used to worry about that when I was in relationships because you are supposed to tart up a bit sometimes in relationships to hold your partner's interest.
When I did care about beauty, it was imposed from the outside and I was just being other-directed about it. With older age came freedom from those expectations. Now, the only time I think about it is when I go to some event in a skirt and someone says in a pitying voice "how nice to see you dressed up for a change" or something. ;P As if somehow I don't love myself if I don't primp. I see it the opposite - if I fuss a lot over myself it's saying I am not OK the way I am.

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)

I'll shop online once in awhile if I need to get something specific at a good price. I'll start a fantasy surf once in awhile but soon abandon it. Other more interesting things to do (read information for instance - politics or science or e-mails from friends).

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch

nothing that resembles that sort of activity.
possibly x's and o's at the ends of letters to loved ones, though

-All about love and peace, etc

definitely not. I'm a real curmudgeon. And when I embraced my essential curmudgeonliness and stopped repressing it, I got a lot happier and less curmudgeonly.

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

hmm, eclectic things are fun to talk about. Yes, I rather like obscure things. Exotic subcultures and trivia and things I never knew about before.

[TwinStar]

Seems like I'm one of the few super-feminine INTJ female here.... I do most of these to some degree (i.e. not obsessing over shoes, etc.), except for the heart symbols (though I do draw my sorority symbols...not much better) and the "all about love and peace" bit. I also don't LOVE to gossip and chitchat and make small talk, but you have to do what you have to do. Like I said, I'm in a sorority, so I have to be pleasant and personable. Basically, I care about what I look like a good deal, I wear makeup nearly every day, I enjoy shopping and do it often, and I keep up on trends. And I'm 17 (in college though, if that means anything), so hopefully that answers your question.

Oh, and as for worrying about never having met an INTJ female.... Don't. I don't know a single person that would guess I'm INTJ, though I am (and very much so).

[hidden]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc.

I don't read very many magazines

-Wearing makeup

I don't like makeup and don't wear it...for anyone or anything

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc

Uh, no

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc

No

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)

I don't like shopping

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch

No

-All about love and peace, etc

No

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

I can't stand idle chitchat and hate gossip

[Mina]

- I wear makeup.
- I dress in a way that is feminine, though I don't particularly follow "trends."
- I work out every day and take care of my appearance.
-I am not at all insecure, but I am all about self improvement in EVERY area of my life, including the superficial.
- I don't read "girly" magazines.
-When I go shopping, I tend to already know exactly what I'm going to buy before I get there, and only spend about 20 minutes. I HATE crowded places, including the mall.
- I like drawing galaxies, parts of the human anatomy, and amoeba-like shapes.
- While my own romantic relationships are of value to me (if they weren't, I wouldn't have any), I am not overly concerned with love and peace.
- Gossip and idle chit chat completely bore me, and I do not participate in it, ever.

[Anna]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

I don't do any of those, and I'm not an INTJ. Well, occasionally, I read a fashion magazine, but mostly to scoff at some of the more ridiculous articles.

[wittykitty]

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc I read fashion magazines for photography ideas, otherwise I agree with Oscar Wilde on this issue: "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months."
-Wearing makeup - Always
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc - I'm OCD about matching and simplicity.
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc - Yes, I dont like downplaying the importance of image in our society (Wrong or not..)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) - EVery so often with a max of 4 hours?
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch Swirls. haha
-All about love and peace, etc I like war, but then again Im a history major
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc Not at all. If anything an evil necessity.

[smashy]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc

I don't read celebrity or people or gossip magazines because I don't give a damn about the life of people I don't know. Sometimes I read fashion magazines to get new ideas about what to wear. I don't follow the latest fashion, but I like to have new ideas about clothes.

-Wearing makeup

Yes, everyday.

-Obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc

Yes, I do. Well, I'm not obsessed, but I care about it.

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc

Yes, very much. I workout a lot, take care of what I eat, use a lot of body beauty products. I'm concerned about the way I look and I like it.

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)

Sometimes I find it fun, as long as the shopping mall is not crowded.

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch.

I think I'm gonna get sick with this question... :yuck:

-All about love and peace, etc

Yes, as long as no one bothers me.

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc.

What obscure things? Well, I hate gossip and chit chat, huge waste of time.

Oh, and yes, I like clothes, handbags, shoes, hair, make-up, I care about looks and having a nice body and about beauty products, but I HATE to speak about that with other girls.

[ZzyzxRd]

none of the above.
These things seem so worldly and unworthy to be spent time and money on.
I'd rather occupy myself with things that are more mentally self-fulling and constructive.

Especially opposed to wearing makeup....
I think I am beautiful on the inside so I am confident enough to present myself the way I originally look.
I don't like to follow the trend or conform myself to do it.
In short you can say I'm concerned about my inner beauty more than anything.

[Maayan]

Bonus Question: Do normal girls also do the things that INTJ girls usually do?
Bonus Answer: Some do.

What's your point?

[daydreamer]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

nope. ok well i do have my hippie moments lol but otherwise nope to all else. i don't know any women my age (40) who do those things.

[WyohKnott]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
-Wearing makeup
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
-All about love and peace, etc
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc

Do you? Do you?

May I ask where this is "normal" girl behavior, so that I can avoid that place like the plague? ;) Seriously though, most of that sounds like it came from a bad romantic comedy... I do know a couple girls who act like that, but it's definitely not the norm. As for which I do:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etc
Nope, sure don't. Only when there is absolutely *nothing* else available to read, and I'm bored out of my mind (and often not even then)

-Wearing makeup
Uh, yeah, I wear makeup sometimes... not always, and not an excessive amount, but I do use some.

-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc
Eww, no.

-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc
Nope... only when it's directly useful to me to look my best.

-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean)
No, I would be bored out of my mind if I spent more than a couple hours per month at the mall.

-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch
No... the only girls I know who do anything close to this are under age 13.

-All about love and peace, etc
Um, no...

-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc
I actually very much dislike gossip, but "chitchat about obscure things" is pretty vague, so maybe so... I can talk for hours about the most random stuff, with the right people.

[Samoan Corleone]

INTJ chicks aren't normal, and that's why I love them...

[Cocoa]

Like the following:

-Reading fashion magazines, People magazines, and celebrity magazines, etcNo, but will occationally go to Perez Hilton's site just to be in the know and not feel like a total outcast in chitchats. Also, will watch Oscars for the same reason: Monday morning conversations at work/school.
-Wearing makeup-No, almost never. Too many chemicals.
-obsessing over shoes, hairs, handbags, and clothes, etc-No, as long as I'm wearing clean clothes it's all good.
-Extremely concerned about your own beauty, etc-No, beauty fades. :)
-Strolling around the shopping mall 7 hours per day, etc (ok that's exaggerated but you know what I mean) -No, I shop like a "man" get in, grab what I need and out.
-Drawing heart symbols on every single thing you touch -LOL ok sometimes. But secretly, and on things that no one will ever see.
-All about love and peace, etc -No?
-Loves to gossip and chitchat about obscure things, etc -No, but I can fake it really well since it's necessary for social integration (thus watching Oscars, Perez hilton to search for viable material to chit chat about) Once the painful ordeal of social interaction is over and I can somewhat pass for a girl, I take off to my lala-land.

Do you? Do you?