Considering an ESFJ for Marriage...

[chipdouglas]

Hi guys, new 25 year-old male here. Been interested in personality types since I hit double digits, and have tested INTJ for a decade. I know there is room for misinterpretation, but to give you an idea of where I am within the INTJ type, I recently tested:

I (44%)
N (75%)
T (100%)
J (44%)

I used the search function to explore members' compatibility with the ESFJ type, and I am loath to acknowledge it seems uniquely grim. Been at it for 1.5 years though, so I don't want to give it up without a second opinion. For what it's worth, she scored strong in all ESFJ categories (especially J).

We are not having any problems and by rights this should be consummated with marriage. However, I recognize that the enamor will wear off sooner or later. Because I see marriage as a non-negotiable lifetime contract, I don't want to "test-drive" it only to find once the smoke clears that we really have nothing in common. She, on the other hand, "believes in love" and thinks my preoccupation with logistics/statistics is unromantic and unproductive.

Here is a look at our compatibility now, though let me preface the "weaknesses" by saying I have my own, partially-INTJ-related weaknesses: emotional detachment, coldness, self-absorption, poor listener, etc.

COMPATIBILITY STRENGTHS
E: In this category she complements me well because she can be the social half and introduce me, or allow me to seek solitude, in larger social settings.

S: She helps me execute plans today and plan the micro-level stuff as I dream about achieving longer-range goals tomorrow. I would rather have iNtuitive here, but the S has its merits.

F: She complements me well as I sometimes have a complete lack of empathy. I love how loyal she is to me, and I know she would never do anything intentional to hurt me. I love her but she probably loves me far more, so I guess that's a strength. I love how she always looks after me and wants to make sure my needs are met. She is also a great listener, which might also be related to F?

J: We are pretty close in this category, and both appreciate the idea of taking control of our own lives and planning.

COMPATIBILITY WEAKNESSES
E: She is in the unique situation of being "new" (6 years) to the area but never made friends here because she went to college cross-state. Consequently, her social network is her family, and a CONSTANT one. The immediate family is tolerable in moderation, but the extended family (whom she sees 2-3 times a week) is full of loud and belligerent SF women who wear masculine personality qualities. The males present are stereotyped, subjugated, and berated wholesale. I am assertive enough to keep this in check when it's just us, but the family is a recipe for an INTJ PANIC ATTACK and these gatherings are FREQUENT.

S: I like to debate; discuss; philosophize; and talk about themes, patterns, and motives. This kind of thought causes her stress. It is of endless frustration to me that when we disagree about something, I will feel as if I have her backed into a corner on a point with no wiggle room. Game, set, match, right? Well she will bow out, and I am confident I have disabused her of the notion. In fact, what I always find out weeks later is (1) she did NOT accept defeat and continues to believe and propagate the same point in the same form as if the discussion had never occurred, (2) she took the whole disagreement as an expression of my contempt for her rather than an emotionally-detached comparison of reasoning processes, and (3) there was zero intellectual activity going on in her mind at the time of discussion. Also, her complete inability to discern nuance can be another problem.

F: She is very easily manipulable and responds exclusively to emotional cues. There is a huge component of guilt manipulation in her family, and she is constantly making 3+ hour weekly trips round the region to see extended family for fear of "wronging" them. She can be wrangled into doing any number of huge favors for loved ones at any time for any reason no matter the inconvenience to her (or me). We're talking dozens of early-morning trips each month to take tenuous family members to the airport, etc. This often encroaches on her life (e.g., time off work) and is more appropriate for another person to do (e.g., that person's children who are available). Additionally, the SF presence *completely* clouds her judgment on values issues: generally, she cannot believe anything negative about people close to her. A specific example: a blood-related aunt cheated on the uncle, but the blame is exclusively on the uncle and boys because the uncle "wasn't taking care of himself" and the boys "are giving their mother too hard a time" about it.

J: We more or less get along in this category, as it is the only one we share. The only thing, and I don't know if it's a J issue, is that as a weaker J, I am more willing to take risks professionally. For example, she is pursuing a very traditional, structured, and predictable career, while I am trying to juggle a part-time managerial gig as I develop a B2B tech startup. We are both just out of college and she wants to get married sooner than later, so she thinks it is slightly irresponsible that I am not pursuing something more "safe" and predictable.

In retrospect, clearly this is as much about saying my piece as it is about getting feedback. Nevertheless, I hope here to get your thoughts, reactions, insights, anecdotes, etc. Thanks!

[Synamon]

Great post. One caveat, the threads on here are people discussing problems because no one posts about their life when everything is working.

I've been married to an ESFJ forever (21 years) and it works great for me. There were and are a lot of compromises. There have to be in order for a relationship with an opposite type to work. On the plus side, you both gain balance and understanding.

E/I
It takes a lot of effort on the INTJs part to get the ESFJ to understand that we really, really don't want to socialize as much as they do and that it is ok, even awesome, if they go do that all on their own and leave us at home. Really, we like it. You will also have to just suck it up and tag along sometimes. Negotiating is required to find some balance you can both live with.

S/N
The other big adjustment is that ESFJs want a "helpmate" and NTs want an intellectual connection. Those are not the same thing, I would recommend you read David Keirsey's Please Understand Me II for more details on that. For intellectual stimulation I look to places like this forum and friends. He's happy when I do little things around the house.

T/F
Misunderstandings occur all the time. Communication is a bit of a challenge. The way you say something to an F is as important as what you say. They do not like criticism, period. They also like displays of affection, they can't get enough, so suck it up and hug and kiss them alot. You'll get used to it.

You seem to have a good grasp of the differences between you. It can work, if you both want it to and both work at it. Best of luck.

[Zombicide]

COMPATIBILITY STRENGTHS[/B]
E: In this category she complements me well because she can be the social half and introduce me, or allow me to seek solitude, in larger social settings. I don't get what her being an E does to allow you to seek solitude in large social settings.

If you have to question it, then you probably shouldn't marry her. Then again, it sounds like you've been stringing her along, so maybe you shouldn't have done that and should marry (settle for) her for her sake. If it doesn't work out, it won't work out. Doesn't matter. Marry her, don't marry her, you'll figure it out.

[Synamon]

I don't get what her being an E does to allow you to seek solitude in large social settings.


In a group setting an E takes the social burden off the I. You just have to smile and nod now and then and let the extrovert do their thing, chatting with and charming everyone. No one really notices that you aren't involved in the conversation, you just have to be physically present and can retreat into your head.

[Sesquipedalian]

Firstly, let me point out something that you may not have noticed. See that weaknesses list? Notice how each category is about 3x longer than the strengths? That might or might not have something to say about the state of your relationship since INTJs tend to be critically-minded, but I'd think that you'd have more positive things to say about someone you're considering spending the rest of your life with.

My second point is not a point but a question: With the strengths... Are you trying to convince yourself that these are reasons to take the next step, or do you truly value those things in her? I dated an ESFP for close to 2 years and a long time after we broke up I realized something... We wouldn't have been together that long save for the fact that I had actually managed to rationalize how her strengths were beneficial to me.

Thirdly, let me ask you this... Are you both equally invested in the relationship? I ask you this not to judge whether or not she loves you, but whether or not she actually realizes how hard you're working at it vs. how hard she's working at it. The fact is, I wouldn't have stayed with my ESFP as long as I had if it weren't for the fact that I catered to her and put in 90% of the effort. What's worse, when things turned bad toward the end, she actually genuinely thought she was trying harder when in reality she wasn't trying any more than a rain "tries" to fall out of the sky when the humidity gets high enough. If she was angry, she expressed it. If she was frustrated with me, she expressed it. If she didn't want me to talk to that one girl that I clicked with in a platonic way, she told me about it and expected me not to spend time with her anymore lest she get upset with me and respond in an emotionally juvenile way. If you find yourself catering to her constantly then take a step back and examine things. You shouldn't be catered to either, there should be a fairly even give and take.

Fourth, take note that marriage only makes life harder initially. It will create far more problems than it will solve, and if you're actually ready for this thing then you should expect to be saying sorry, admitting you were wrong, and humbling yourself when necessary. Two proud, stubborn, unforgiving people getting into marriage is a recipe for disaster. Furthermore, you will be marrying her family, and as an F, good luck convincing her that they're selfish anuses who need to be cut off.

I'd say that, in general, INTJ + ESFJ is a horrible match. I and many other members on here believe that life is a whole heck of a lot better and easier when you match Ns with Ns and Ss with Ss. I do think matching Ts with Fs is a good idea and the I/E thing is negotiable, although personally I prefer to be more of a recluse so I like me some I :P. J/P also not a huge factor for me.

HOWEVER, if you're mature enough to learn how to best communicate with her in an S fashion, and don't expect to get any sort of intellectual stimulation or debate out of her, then sure, it could work. You'd be marrying someone that couldn't be your "everything" becuase she's not going to want to be quircky and creative and discuss all of the possibilities and delve deep into the intellectual minutia. If you're okay with that, then great. If you aren't, the think long and hard because the inconvenience and sadness of breaking up with her now is far exceeded by the angry hurt and bitterness of divorce.

[Zombicide]

In a group setting an E takes the social burden off the I. You just have to smile and nod now and then and let the extrovert do their thing, chatting with and charming everyone. No one really notices that you aren't involved in the conversation, you just have to be physically present and can retreat into your head.

Oh, in my experience they've (embarrassingly) attempted to get me involved in conversations or complained and even gotten angry that I wasn't socializing / acting normal and that that should be considered shameful, so I've actually found the opposite to be true but I suppose others have had different experiences.

[Zilal]

I wouldn't think about MBTI types... just look at how your values and hers match up. Do you have similar ideas about how you should treat each other? Handle conflicts, money, children?

[Marcus]

We are both just out of college and she wants to get married sooner than later, so she thinks it is slightly irresponsible that I am not pursuing something more "safe" and predictable.

That's instinctive, IMHO. She needs (financial) security before having babies (and she has a biological urge to do it before 30). I think it's not healthy to sacrifice your risky, but probably more prospective carrier for a safe path when you're a 25 year old male.

[amberlinen]

My mother is ESFJ, and I love her very much. But I don't understand why an INT would want to marry an ESFJ. I think something in common on important values and intellectual exchange is a must in a long term romantic relationship, but maybe it's me who value those too much.

Practically speaking what makes the marriage lasting is how you act during arguments. If her criticism doesn't escalate into personal attack, and you don't become stonewalling (being silent and not respond a word), and both of you don't belittle each other on the areas of weakness, then I guess it won't be too bad.

[Synamon]

My mother is ESFJ, and I love her very much. But I don't understand why an INT would want to marry an ESFJ. I think something in common on important values and intellectual exchange is a must in a long term romantic relationship, but maybe it's me who value those too much.

MBTI personality type is only one facet of someone's nature, specifically how they process information and come to decisions. ESFJs and INTJs can share the same set of values, the same sense of humor, many of the same interests, the same ideology, the same goals, the same <insert whatever here>. A relationship with an opposite type can be complimentary instead of conflicted.

You may have noticed that not all INTJs on this forum are on the same side of every issue. Matching or similar MBTI types is no guarantee of a fit in values.

Practically speaking what makes the marriage lasting is how you act during arguments. If her criticism doesn't escalate into personal attack, and you don't become stonewalling (being silent and not respond a word), and both of you don't belittle each other on the areas of weakness, then I guess it won't be too bad.
Excellent advice, communication is key in all long term relationships.

[SeaCzar]

Firstly, let me point out something that you may not have noticed. See that weaknesses list? Notice how each category is about 3x longer than the strengths? That might or might not have something to say about the state of your relationship since INTJs tend to be critically-minded, but I'd think that you'd have more positive things to say about someone you're considering spending the rest of your life with.



This is the first thing I noticed as well.

Because I see marriage as a non-negotiable lifetime contract, I don't want to "test-drive" it only to find once the smoke clears that we really have nothing in common. She, on the other hand, "believes in love" and thinks my preoccupation with logistics/statistics is unromantic and unproductive.

This alone should throw up a red flag.

Consequently, her social network is her family, and a CONSTANT one. The immediate family is tolerable in moderation, but the extended family (whom she sees 2-3 times a week) is full of loud and belligerent SF women who wear masculine personality qualities. The males present are stereotyped, subjugated, and berated wholesale. I am assertive enough to keep this in check when it's just us, but the family is a recipe for an INTJ PANIC ATTACK and these gatherings are FREQUENT.

Here's another red flag. Unless separated by geography, when you marry, you are not just marrying the woman, but the family as well. Something tells me the herd here will eventually have you stereotyped, subjugated and berated wholesale, like it or not.

I like to debate; discuss; philosophize; and talk about themes, patterns, and motives. This kind of thought causes her stress. It is of endless frustration to me that when we disagree about something, I will feel as if I have her backed into a corner on a point with no wiggle room. Game, set, match, right? Well she will bow out, and I am confident I have disabused her of the notion. In fact, what I always find out weeks later is (1) she did NOT accept defeat and continues to believe and propagate the same point in the same form as if the discussion had never occurred, (2) she took the whole disagreement as an expression of my contempt for her rather than an emotionally-detached comparison of reasoning processes, and (3) there was zero intellectual activity going on in her mind at the time of discussion. Also, her complete inability to discern nuance can be another problem.

This is not a red flag, but, for me, a total deal breaker. Could you live with this for the rest of your life? Think about this. You would be confined to small talk about the weather and other niceties for fear of starting an unending arguement/disagreement.


She is very easily manipulable and responds exclusively to emotional cues. There is a huge component of guilt manipulation in her family, and she is constantly making 3+ hour weekly trips round the region to see extended family for fear of "wronging" them. She can be wrangled into doing any number of huge favors for loved ones at any time for any reason no matter the inconvenience to her (or me). We're talking dozens of early-morning trips each month to take tenuous family members to the airport, etc. This often encroaches on her life (e.g., time off work) and is more appropriate for another person to do (e.g., that person's children who are available). Additionally, the SF presence *completely* clouds her judgment on values issues: generally, she cannot believe anything negative about people close to her. A specific example: a blood-related aunt cheated on the uncle, but the blame is exclusively on the uncle and boys because the uncle "wasn't taking care of himself" and the boys "are giving their mother too hard a time" about it.

This smacks of neediness and someone who literally cannot see the forest through the trees.

Apologies for the harshness of these comments, but you did ask for feedback. Further, I would think that you know something is awry, or you would not have posted this to begin with. Marriage these days has less that a 50% chance at success. If you see marriage as a non-negotiable lifetime contract and want to marry this girl, I would suggest at least an iron-clad prenup.

[blossom]

I am an INFJ so a little bit different (although probably the personality type most similar to an INTJ--my F preference is very low), but I was married to an ESFJ for almost 8 years.

Benefits:

1. I grew in so many ways as a person--learned to communicate better, be more outgoing, and became more well-rounded.

2. He made friends so easily and did all the socializing as you mentioned.

3. I could (and still do) easily manipulate him which gave me a lot of control over the relationship.

4. He was very loyal and a great friend, and we shared many of the same values.


Negatives:

1. Our communication on all of our major issues was horrible, and no matter how much I tried, it only got tolerable and never even up to good.

2. There was no mental connection, and I need that to stay interested sexually in a person. I eventually became frigid and uninterested in sex except at certain times of the month when my body had a craving for it. We ended up divorcing because of his constant and repeated inability to stay faithful, but it was very civil and we remain friends since I don't blame him at all.

3. I could not fully respect or treat as an equal anyone with such a limited narrow-minded view of the world, and he had problems feeling inferior to me. As a result of not being able to really respect him, I could not really fall in love with him.

4. His family was full of interfering ESFJ women who were controlling and manipulative and tried to constantly interfere in our lives. When we had a child together things got WAY worse. Family is a huge issue if you are considering children.

There are more, but those were the main ones.

I am currently with an INTJ, and the difference is unbelievable. We definitely have a few communication issues with the F/T difference, but it's more that he doesn't really "get" or understand my emotional needs. However, since we communicate really well, as long as I am clear and rational in conveying what they are and explicit about what he needs to do to meet them, he is good at meeting them as best he can. The mental connection though is what is amazing; I think without that your average INFJ/INTJ will slowly lose interest in regular, constant sex with the same person over a long period of time if their biological need for it is not incredibly strong.

I could go on and on, but the best way to sum this up is that I think on average (with a few exceptions like Synamon) that a relationship with an ESFJ would be great for a period of a few years, but not for a lifetime. The communication and the family issue would be too big, in my opinion, to make that kind of permanent commitment to someone.

[countrygirl]

Does she realize that love also has a practical aspect? Believing in love is idealistic no matter how right it feels for her.

Would she be willing to move away from the family? If not, it might be the thorn in your side and cause a great deal of unnecessary stress and friction even if you are both compatible enough.

[Zhen]

hmmm...me thinks if you need to post to a forum to decide, she's ain't the right one buddy!

[SeaCzar]

You may find a few comments in this thread helpful as well.

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[chipdouglas]

PREFACE: I'm aware this post is a doozie.

I see that many picked up on the disparate lengths of the Pro/Con sections. I assure you, that is a function of (a) my preference for criticism over praise (as Sesquipedalian picked up on), (b) my LOVE of commiseration, and (c) my interest in what YOU guys think about the problems, because of course I can already deal with her strengths... In fact, I considered leaving the Strengths part out entirely to avoid this misunderstanding; obviously it is too late for that. Nevertheless, it is clear at this point that it was disingenuous of me to say "we are not having any problems." What I really mean is we are not having any MAJOR problems.

It is clear from some people that an INTJ-ESFJ partnership is possible--if not happy--but what I hope to learn from the people who associate with ESFJs, especially in a romantic context, is can an INTJ-ESFJ partnership be mutually rewarding in the long term? It sounds like, save for 1 or 2 of you, the thought of an ESFJ's companionship sends chills down your spine. If so, is this coming from people with good ESFJ experience or is this just a reflex?

Zombicide: When I say she also allows me to "seek solitude," what I mean is she is willing and able, if only subconsciously, to represent "us" at a social function with little input from me. This gives me the chance to retreat elsewhere or, as Synamon said, into my own head. This does work, but I have also found myself in situations like yours, with Es verbally suggesting I socialize with people who can hear the suggestion. That's annoying.

Sesquipedalian: Some more context is in order. I guess I got lucky for an INTJ in high school, because I never had a problem getting a girlfriend. But between a term in the Marines (don't try it; it's an INTJ NIGHTMARE) and college, I found myself in situations where incompetence and logistics teamed up to produce a 5-year bachelor streak. This led to some desperation which is admittedly responsible for some of the present relationship. For that reason, yes, my attempts to describe her opposite qualities as "complements" to mine may just be feelgood spin. In fact, I have very strong friendships with a few NTs with whom I will spend several hours talking, so clearly, stronger similarities in personality seem to contribute to more natural and rewarding relationships.

At my age, the amount of time it takes to determine real compatibility, my personality type, and my investment in the relationship so far, it is understandably terrifying to think of breaking it off. For what it's worth, her compromises thus far have far exceeded mine: despite her impressive professional achievements, she is willing to move anywhere I want, let me choose how or if we have kids, and makes no serious protests about the prospect of waiting a few years to let me figure my financial life out before popping the question. In other words, there will be at most one stubborn person in the relationship...

Zilal: Our "values" regarding how we treat each other, handle money and children, etc., match up very well. At the moment, we are different ideologically. However, it is difficult to call hers an ideology because it appeals to gnostic emotional revelation as a way of "knowing," which is enough to crash any INTJ's computer.

Just for fun: last night, she informed me that people have a "right" to see "exciting architecture" (presumably at a cost to taxpayers et al.). When I explained to her that they literally do not have any such "right," she was appalled at my callousness. I asked her if the people who never get to experience the joy of bubble gum have a "right" to chew it, or if we have a "right" to see "exciting movies," to establish where we draw lines on essential human rights. Another game, set, match? Of course not: I know it went right over her head, and she believes anybody she can muster empathy for ought to be afforded draconian legal provisions at any cost to others. And generally, her worldview-preservation technique seems to consist of dismissing her own outright, acknowledged contradictions, or intellectual defeat, as attributable to my "nerdiness" (however endearingly) rather than to insufficient ideas or her insufficient defense of those ideas. She may still be ideologically curious, then... I just have to figure out how to communicate my ideas to her with something other than... logic.

SeaCzar: Appreciate someone, for once, who can empathize with my futile attempts to reason and communicate with an SF. And you're right: I hate to acknowledge it and I've probably known it all along, but the family situation is probably a wash. Dad is more or less loaded, so even if we moved cross-country, it is likely that he would be only too happy to "help" us make it back home 5+ times a year each time we had a vacation. This would at least solve the larger extended family problem, but in moving I would be giving up 25 years of area connections (friends and family) that even she doesn't have. Also, if it's of any interest, the 50% divorce statistic is a "myth" according to some for various reasons (e.g., does not account for current, intact marriages). At one point nearly 30 years ago it was true, averaged through a lifetime. But all numbers regarding my particular demographic (white, 25+, first marriage) suggest a divorce rate from 1 in 3 to 1 in 5. In other words, holding personality compatibility constant, the chances of the marriage lasting range from 66%-80%.

Blossom: Concerned about your intimacy disclaimer, and about not staying interested in somebody you can't connect with. Also not excited about merely "toughing it out" with somebody whose communication style may as well put them in outer space. She is not cavalier about children but "would like to" with me; tentatively, I was planning on 1 or 2 at the most. Bad idea? By the way, how did the controlling ESFJ women interfere and how tolerable was it? I may be experiencing this, as the mother's expectations of me seem to suggest she thinks I am dating her as well as her daughter. I have already told the GF, "tongue-in-cheek," that if her mother thinks I'm dating both of them, she's in for a long disappointment.

Countrygirl: I'm with you. Found this quote somewhere:

Busby addressed different myths that have the potential to break a marriage. One of these is the myth that love is enough. "So much of marriage is, in my view, commitment," Busby said. "Emotions come and go." Busby said another potentially problematic myth is a completely spiritual approach to choosing a mate will work. He warned against "shortchanging the brain."

I have my work cut out if I hope to persuade her of this.

The biggest issues I see so far are (1) her utter inability, even refusal, to communicate on an NT plane and (2) the ceaseless family meddling, with their penchant for inappropriately assuming control and emotionally manipulating anyone they can.

Naturally, any further insight/responses/anecdotes are welcome. Thanks for what I've got so far.

[Nyctalop]

S: I like to debate; discuss; philosophize; and talk about themes, patterns, and motives. This kind of thought causes her stress. It is of endless frustration to me that when we disagree about something, I will feel as if I have her backed into a corner on a point with no wiggle room. Game, set, match, right? Well she will bow out, and I am confident I have disabused her of the notion. In fact, what I always find out weeks later is (1) she did NOT accept defeat and continues to believe and propagate the same point in the same form as if the discussion had never occurred, (2) she took the whole disagreement as an expression of my contempt for her rather than an emotionally-detached comparison of reasoning processes, and (3) there was zero intellectual activity going on in her mind at the time of discussion. Also, her complete inability to discern nuance can be another problem.


This part really struck a chord with me. It brung back so many arguments I've had and thought were a closed matter only to have them resurface weeks later with renewed strength.

[amberlinen]

You may have noticed that not all INTJs on this forum are on the same side of every issue. Matching or similar MBTI types is no guarantee of a fit in values..

I know what you are saying. I guess it's more problematic if it's a strong N vs. a strong S.

********

Just to add 2 more things to chipdouglas, from the experience from my parents' INT vs. ESF marriage, and also from my experience dealing with my mom.

1. In the main post the clearly shown contempt towards her intellectual ability writes disasters all over the place. If you want to live with a person you have to be humble and respect her values from your heart.

In order to be humble you should think like this: Book smart doesn't make you a better person. Any monkey can get an insight from a book. But when ESFJ have any insight coming from their experience, that's truly amazing, because that's the wisdom of life.

ESFJ doesn't need a professor who doesn't care about her. She doesn't need intellectual debates to prove who's smarter. She needs someone who can acknowledge her contributions and her feelings, mainly her contributions because she can truly be a very caring person towards family.

Give her what she wants.


2. Because ESFJs get their insight from experience, they can be very naive when they are young. That makes you the only person responsible for your future happiness, because you are the only person who's capable of seeing things beforehand using your book smart.

You know what you're getting into. If there's anything wrong, don't blame her because she wouldn't know better; blame yourself because you are too lazy/stubborn/stupid to devise a good communication system to make sure of your happiness.

you know how to do this, don't you? Go read a few good books or seek professional opinions.

[blossom]

At my age, the amount of time it takes to determine real compatibility, my personality type, and my investment in the relationship so far, it is understandably terrifying to think of breaking it off. For what it's worth, her compromises thus far have far exceeded mine: despite her impressive professional achievements, she is willing to move anywhere I want, let me choose how or if we have kids, and makes no serious protests about the prospect of waiting a few years to let me figure my financial life out before popping the question. In other words, there will be at most one stubborn person in the relationship...


Blossom: Concerned about your intimacy disclaimer, and about not staying interested in somebody you can't connect with. Also not excited about merely "toughing it out" with somebody whose communication style may as well put them in outer space. She is not cavalier about children but "would like to" with me; tentatively, I was planning on 1 or 2 at the most. Bad idea? By the way, how did the controlling ESFJ women interfere and how tolerable was it? I may be experiencing this, as the mother's expectations of me seem to suggest she thinks I am dating her as well as her daughter. I have already told the GF, "tongue-in-cheek," that if her mother thinks I'm dating both of them, she's in for a long disappointment.



The ESFJ women that I know (obviously I can't speak for all of them) feel very strongly about the way children are raised, and think their opinions and views on child-raising are the only right ones and will severely criticize and try to manipulate anyone who is not following their way. My guess would be that her family would "influence" her into raising your children the way that they think is right. If your views differed from theirs, you would not only be attacked yourself, but it would cause severe stress on the relationship between you and your wife. Since women are often (don't know if this is your plan or not) the primary influence and care-giver of children, your influence will have to be subtle, and you may end up for the sake of your marriage needing to allow her family to essentially raise your kids.

Another point to consider is that while she may be willing right now to let you decide whether or not to have kids, most likely when she reaches her 30s or so, she will definitely want them if you have decided not to have them. And don't forget her family's influence on this matter too such as making her feel like an outcast, less of a woman, missing out on something in life, etc. There is no way a 20-something can predict that they will be okay with never having children, and I do not think that is something that should or really can be only one person's decision (unless it is for medical reasons) without causing serious problems. You should make this decision assuming at some point you will most likely have children with her if your marriage is to be permanent.

As I've stated, my opinion is that you could have a more rewarding, deeper, and easier relationship with an intuitive, particularly an NF, but they are so rare to find--especially one that is in your age range, well-balanced, and available. On the other hand you already have someone with all the benefits in the first paragraph I quoted above. If you do decide to make it work, I would strongly suggest that you look at the threads on relationships between intuitives and sensors. There are several people here who are in relationships similar to what you are describing who have given excellent practical tips on how to make things work.

[SeaCzar]

What I really mean is we are not having any MAJOR problems.......

........yet. Your original post was very articulate, analytical and well thought out (how INTJ of you). You're obviously a smart guy. However, I read in that post that you have anticipated the pathway that this relationship will take, and from what I see, it seems that you are knowingly going in a direction that you do not wish to take. Perhaps I am interpreting this incorrectly.




It is clear from some people that an INTJ-ESFJ partnership is possible--if not happy--but what I hope to learn from the people who associate with ESFJs, especially in a romantic context, is can an INTJ-ESFJ partnership be mutually rewarding in the long term? It sounds like, save for 1 or 2 of you, the thought of an ESFJ's companionship sends chills down your spine. If so, is this coming from people with good ESFJ experience or is this just a reflex?

Experience. My (ex) wife was an ESFx. I cannot conceive of a more disasterous ending. I have not seen my daughter in more than 12 years. In a romantic context, it was, at the beginning, intoxicating. It was a whole new reality because of the NT/SF differences. It gave me a different perspective that, not having been previously exposed to, was initially intriguing. However, as you said, once the smoke clears, and it got down to the daily grind and confronting life, it did not work at all. The relationship lacked a basic congruity which was fatal to its longevity. It ended up being the most toxic and poisonous relationship I have ever had (This is my fault. I stayed in it too long because of my daughter. In the end, it made things worse).


This led to some desperation which is admittedly responsible for some of the present relationship. For that reason, yes, my attempts to describe her opposite qualities as "complements" to mine may just be feelgood spin. In fact, I have very strong friendships with a few NTs with whom I will spend several hours talking, so clearly, stronger similarities in personality seem to contribute to more natural and rewarding relationships......... However, it is difficult to call hers an ideology because it appeals to gnostic emotional revelation as a way of "knowing," which is enough to crash any INTJ's computer.

Your words, not mine.

Just for fun: last night, she informed me that people have a "right" to see "exciting architecture" (presumably at a cost to taxpayers et al.). When I explained to her that they literally do not have any such "right," she was appalled at my callousness. I asked her if the people who never get to experience the joy of bubble gum have a "right" to chew it, or if we have a "right" to see "exciting movies," to establish where we draw lines on essential human rights. Another game, set, match? Of course not: I know it went right over her head, and she believes anybody she can muster empathy for ought to be afforded draconian legal provisions at any cost to others. And generally, her worldview-preservation technique seems to consist of dismissing her own outright, acknowledged contradictions, or intellectual defeat, as attributable to my "nerdiness" (however endearingly) rather than to insufficient ideas or her insufficient defense of those ideas. She may still be ideologically curious, then... I just have to figure out how to communicate my ideas to her with something other than... logic.

First off, this does not sound anything like "fun", at least by my definition. I would say that her arguement,IMHO, is at best irrational, and that yours makes perfect sense. Again, forest/trees.


The biggest issues I see so far are (1) her utter inability, even refusal, to communicate on an NT plane and (2) the ceaseless family meddling, with their penchant for inappropriately assuming control and emotionally manipulating anyone they can.

You seem to have decided, at least for now, that your investment in this relationship is too great to sacrifice it. I can see how you could think this, as dating is at best a pain, given the barren and vacuous landscape out there. As Synamon is an example, INTJ-ESFJ can work. Regardless of what you decide, good luck with it.

[anamatria]

Firstly, let me point out something that you may not have noticed. See that weaknesses list? Notice how each category is about 3x longer than the strengths? That might or might not have something to say about the state of your relationship since INTJs tend to be critically-minded, but I'd think that you'd have more positive things to say about someone you're considering spending the rest of your life with.

My second point is not a point but a question: With the strengths... Are you trying to convince yourself that these are reasons to take the next step, or do you truly value those things in her? I dated an ESFP for close to 2 years and a long time after we broke up I realized something... We wouldn't have been together that long save for the fact that I had actually managed to rationalize how her strengths were beneficial to me.

Thirdly, let me ask you this... Are you both equally invested in the relationship? I ask you this not to judge whether or not she loves you, but whether or not she actually realizes how hard you're working at it vs. how hard she's working at it. The fact is, I wouldn't have stayed with my ESFP as long as I had if it weren't for the fact that I catered to her and put in 90% of the effort. What's worse, when things turned bad toward the end, she actually genuinely thought she was trying harder when in reality she wasn't trying any more than a rain "tries" to fall out of the sky when the humidity gets high enough. If she was angry, she expressed it. If she was frustrated with me, she expressed it. If she didn't want me to talk to that one girl that I clicked with in a platonic way, she told me about it and expected me not to spend time with her anymore lest she get upset with me and respond in an emotionally juvenile way. If you find yourself catering to her constantly then take a step back and examine things. You shouldn't be catered to either, there should be a fairly even give and take.

Fourth, take note that marriage only makes life harder initially. It will create far more problems than it will solve, and if you're actually ready for this thing then you should expect to be saying sorry, admitting you were wrong, and humbling yourself when necessary. Two proud, stubborn, unforgiving people getting into marriage is a recipe for disaster. Furthermore, you will be marrying her family, and as an F, good luck convincing her that they're selfish anuses who need to be cut off.

I'd say that, in general, INTJ + ESFJ is a horrible match. I and many other members on here believe that life is a whole heck of a lot better and easier when you match Ns with Ns and Ss with Ss. I do think matching Ts with Fs is a good idea and the I/E thing is negotiable, although personally I prefer to be more of a recluse so I like me some I :P. J/P also not a huge factor for me.

HOWEVER, if you're mature enough to learn how to best communicate with her in an S fashion, and don't expect to get any sort of intellectual stimulation or debate out of her, then sure, it could work. You'd be marrying someone that couldn't be your "everything" becuase she's not going to want to be quircky and creative and discuss all of the possibilities and delve deep into the intellectual minutia. If you're okay with that, then great. If you aren't, the think long and hard because the inconvenience and sadness of breaking up with her now is far exceeded by the angry hurt and bitterness of divorce.

Can I ask why you don't feel a T or F is a good match?

[Romeo]

I agree, this is a great post. Let me mention to you upfront that whatever bothers you in the slightest prior to marriage is usually the factor for the demise of the marriage. I'm an INTJ woman socialized in an ESFJ family. Whew! I know what you're talking about. This is how I see it (...and I might be wrong), your ESFJ will assume a role of wife (and mother after the children are born) and she will follow what she believe is the right way to be a wife. She probably will be an excellent wife but she will totally forget about who she was when you fell in love with her. That person will no longer exist because she will be worrying about how her family and extended family are viewing her. Is she measuring up to be the kind of wife and mother that everyone expects her to be? She will be more concerned with how things "look" to the outside world than the qualities that made you fall in love with her.

Let me ask you.......is your mother a SJ personality type? That will be telling as to why you gravitated to an ESFJ personality type.

Once the surface stuff is gone, will you be able to have wonderful conversations with her for the rest of your life? INTJ's need mindmates or soulmates (NF's). It will be a tough road connecting for life.

It won't hit you initially but when you've been married twenty years or so, it will hit. What typically happens is that you find someone outside the marriage to fill the gap. Life becomes complicated.

I just watched Dr. Zhivago--a movie filmed in 1965. Gosh, did it illustrate it wonderfully in that film. I bet he was an INTJ or INFJ.....and I'm sure his wife was a "SJ". Watch the movie and you will understand what I'm saying.

Good luck!

ADDENDUM: Please get out of that relationship fast. I know it will be difficult for you but you must think about your life down the road. It will not be a happy one and you will spend your life frustrated. You walk this path of life just once. It's not a dress rehearsal. Divorce is tough and staying with someone for life because you don't believe in divorce is even tougher. Don't settle--never settle. Wait the right one will come along. Sometimes that right person is packaged very differently than you ever imagined.

Romeo is a woman who is almost 60 years old. I'm telling you from observation of friends and couples that I've associated with for many years. Listen to me, I'm wise. Please don't wreck your life and the lives of your children.





Romeo added to this post, 15 minutes and 0 seconds later...

I am an INFJ so a little bit different (although probably the personality type most similar to an INTJ--my F preference is very low), but I was married to an ESFJ for almost 8 years.

Benefits:

1. I grew in so many ways as a person--learned to communicate better, be more outgoing, and became more well-rounded.

2. He made friends so easily and did all the socializing as you mentioned.

3. I could (and still do) easily manipulate him which gave me a lot of control over the relationship.

4. He was very loyal and a great friend, and we shared many of the same values.


Negatives:

1. Our communication on all of our major issues was horrible, and no matter how much I tried, it only got tolerable and never even up to good.

2. There was no mental connection, and I need that to stay interested sexually in a person. I eventually became frigid and uninterested in sex except at certain times of the month when my body had a craving for it. We ended up divorcing because of his constant and repeated inability to stay faithful, but it was very civil and we remain friends since I don't blame him at all.

3. I could not fully respect or treat as an equal anyone with such a limited narrow-minded view of the world, and he had problems feeling inferior to me. As a result of not being able to really respect him, I could not really fall in love with him.

4. His family was full of interfering ESFJ women who were controlling and manipulative and tried to constantly interfere in our lives. When we had a child together things got WAY worse. Family is a huge issue if you are considering children.

There are more, but those were the main ones.

I am currently with an INTJ, and the difference is unbelievable. We definitely have a few communication issues with the F/T difference, but it's more that he doesn't really "get" or understand my emotional needs. However, since we communicate really well, as long as I am clear and rational in conveying what they are and explicit about what he needs to do to meet them, he is good at meeting them as best he can. The mental connection though is what is amazing; I think without that your average INFJ/INTJ will slowly lose interest in regular, constant sex with the same person over a long period of time if their biological need for it is not incredibly strong.

I could go on and on, but the best way to sum this up is that I think on average (with a few exceptions like Synamon) that a relationship with an ESFJ would be great for a period of a few years, but not for a lifetime. The communication and the family issue would be too big, in my opinion, to make that kind of permanent commitment to someone.
Gosh, this sounds like my marriage. I'm so happy that I'm divorced. It was murder and I stuck it out for 35 years of my life because I didn't believe in divorce. I can't believe I was such a jerk.





Romeo added to this post, 5 minutes and 54 seconds later...

BTW--Sesquipedalian, you're brilliant!

[BostonIan]

hmmm...me thinks if you need to post to a forum to decide, she's ain't the right one buddy!

I go the opposite way. If you're considering marriage even though you're not at biological-clock age, even though marriage and children presumably aren't an immediate goal, even though your list of negatives outweigh the positive threefold, even though you're a Logical, then she must be pretty dang marriageable.

Nothing's perfect. Peeling away when you're so close is silly. You kids have my blessing.

[intjdude]

she scored strong in all ESFJ categories (especially J).


ESFJ with a stong J? my god :scared:
set your house on fire and flee!
;D

PS. Don't forget to take one of her pairs of panties

[chipdouglas]

Thanks for the feedback so far, guys.

It's clear to me now, as it has been to all of you since the original post, that I'm looking for reasons to stay in this. Hopefully that's understandable with what I have invested in this at the moment. I'm going to take the consensus opinion as: successful INTJ-ESFJ marriages are POSSIBLE but unlikely, and even when they are successful, it is likely that neither mate will feel very satisfied with their partner's ability to emotionally or intellectually stimulate them. This certainly puts me in a difficult place, and other INTJs should relate to the induced panic of leaving a [temporarily] satisfying relationship to go find one of the rare iNtuitives, who make up 50% of the possibilities but only a paltry 26.7% of the real population (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Working the dating scene as an INTJ is terrifying enough, and made even more daunting by the thought of starting at 25 and sifting individually through the 73.3% of Sensors out there, an investigative process which could take weeks or months EACH before you blow the bridge.

THE FINAL QUESTION
Like most kids, probably, I started out as a Sensor, but my Introverted nature encouraged me to write a lot. For 6 years now I have written down my thoughts, opinions, etc., in a private journal on the computer. Now twice the length of the Bible, this (and compiling huge "cheat sheets" for common debates I have) may make me sound like a serial killer with Asperger's. In fact, it hugely cultivated my iNtuitive side: I am now capable of writing and speaking more articulately, more rationally, with a better vocabulary, and am able to discern nuance far better than when I was a Sensor. My question is obviously borne of desperation, but I know I can count on INTJs to look past that and analyze it for its merits: what do you guys think about the possibility of suggesting that she keep such a journal everyday to develop her iNtuitive side? I know marrying somebody on the condition of being able to change them is never the best solution. However, I do genuinely love her and want to know if this would be a helpful measure. And in the interest of equity--and sustenance--I am likewise willing to consult her and find out what components of my personality she would like to see closer to hers, and how she would recommend doing this.

Thoughts? (AND BELIEVE ME: I AM FULLY AWARE OF MY DESPERATION, AND WHEN I ULTIMATELY DO ACT, IT WILL BE ON REASON, NOT ON EMOTION.)

[Synamon]

...what do you guys think about the possibility of suggesting that she keep such a journal everyday to develop her iNtuitive side?[/B] I know marrying somebody on the condition of being able to change them is never the best solution. However, I do genuinely love her and want to know if this would be a helpful measure. And in the interest of equity--and sustenance--I am likewise willing to consult her and find out what components of my personality she would like to see closer to hers, and how she would recommend doing this.
I think you missed the point. You can't change someone's way of thinking. S's and N's get to the same conclusions, they just take a different route.

You can help her to understand the way you think. That's it. You can't change the way she thinks. By learning to understand each other you can learn how to communicate better with each other.

[intjdude]

what do you guys think about the possibility of suggesting that she keep such a journal everyday to develop her iNtuitive side?

aahh... a good start to a divorce... ;D

That'd be your desire to constantly improve talking... likely not one of her aspirations...

you keep suggesting things to her and eventually she'll just ask you to love her the way she is (love me for me)... perhaps the way to make your relationship work is to just "live with it as it is"

As it states on personalitypage.com:
"They want to be appreciated for who they are"
AND
"They need approval from others to feel good about themselves."
AND
"All ESFJs have a natural tendency to want to control their environment."

Run boy run!

[SeaCzar]

I agree with Synamon, you cannot change the way she thinks.


Thoughts? (AND BELIEVE ME: I AM FULLY AWARE OF MY DESPERATION, AND WHEN I ULTIMATELY DO ACT, IT WILL BE ON REASON, NOT ON EMOTION.)

You are beating yourself up pretty bad on this, I can tell. Its a difficult and unforgiving situation having to use your own reason to break your heart (and hers) because you are in love with her. As long as you use reason, you will have made the right decision in the end, however wrenching one way or the other. This is a total INTJ cliche, but it is either going to work, or not.

One last cliche. Remember, oppsoites attract.......divorce lawyers.

[chipdouglas]

aahh... a good start to a divorce... ;D

Do you mean the journaling, specifically, is a good start to a divorce, or that generally any measure to perpetuate this is a "good" start?

[azelismia]

Do you mean the journaling, specifically, is a good start to a divorce, or that generally any measure to perpetuate this is a "good" start?


what they mean is you're trying to impose your IN on her ES.. it doesn't work that way. you're trying to change her to "make it work" that never works. zebra's do not change their stripes. if you have to change someone to love them or make it work, it's never going to work. it will end in a messy divorce. I also noticed 1st thing that the positives were one line and looked like they were desperate attempts to find a positive and the negatives were paragraph long..

I saw what you said about being uncertain you can find another female, but are you willing to compromise the rest of your life away like this? you're young. instead of figuring out how to change this woman, figure out what you were doing wrong in finding other women and work on YOURSELF.. Learn how to meet people and socialize.

I agree with most of the other posters here, you need to get out of this relationship, it's never going to work for you. Maybe you should move to a bigger population center where you can be around more available women.

[intjdude]

Do you mean the journaling, specifically, is a good start to a divorce, or that generally any measure to perpetuate this is a "good" start?

i mean... your suggestion for improvement is the beginning of your divorce...

they do not look forward to improvement... they seem to be traditionalists

[chipdouglas]

Haha, well... I guess I got my answer. It wasn't the one I wanted, but my willingness to weigh it heavily in the final decision--rather than clinging to blind, fairytale notions of love--is probably just one more distinction between the NTs and the SFs. I have an interesting time ahead of me...

Appreciate all the feedback, guys.

[intjdude]

you can test it out... you're not married yet...

start suggesting (with reason) things to her for improvement and see how well she takes them... see if she welcomes these suggestions or is reluctant... and more importantly, see if any changes made are permanent

then give yourself some margin of error...her enthusiasm for improvement several years into marriage might be half of what it is now

[Sinequanon]

I find it odd that you would allow a.) anonymous forum posters to decide whether your marriage will work or not and b.) a typological theory dictate the success or failure of that marriage.

With respect to the first point, while I respect people's right to an opinion (and to share their stories, good and bad), the proper response here is "I am not a marriage/family counselor and I have NO right to tell you that your marriage will automatically fail." They don't know you. They don't see your interactions with her. They don't know your heart. They also don't have her side of the story. What they have is a set of letters that they feel they can stereotype this woman they've never met before with.

With respect to the second point, your marriage to any type will succeed or fail based on the work you're willing to put into it. All the type theory does is suggest what sort of work you'll need to do. Every marriage and every family is different. If it comes to be that you'll need to find intellectual compatibility outside of the marriage, then maybe that's worth it to have someone capable of maintaining a steady, warm, loving home? I know a few women who I can talk to for days about anything who would be terrible mothers. What are your priorities in life? What do you need from a partner? Consider your own individuality here too. You are not only the sum of 4 letters.

But hey, if you're willing to let a thread like this talk you out of love, I wonder if you were mature enough to be marrying her anyway.

[chipdouglas]

I find it odd that you would allow a.) anonymous forum posters to decide whether your marriage will work or not and b.) a typological theory dictate the success or failure of that marriage.
...
But hey, if you're willing to let a thread like this talk you out of love, I wonder if you were mature enough to be marrying her anyway.

Thanks for the tough love. I don't intend to substitute others' opinion for my own here, only to weigh them in my decision. If problems like the ones enumerated here begin mounting before marriage, something like this could be the straw to break the camel's back. I think at last count, 80% (4/5) of NT posters who had been married to SFs are now divorced from them, and the one that is not had a few caveats to make (not to mention Sesquipedalian's failed SJ dating relationship). I won't break it off for that reason, but it has given me the necessary sense of caution about proceeding here. Regardless, the answer I wanted from the outset is, "NTs and SJs are a great pair"; since that's not the case, I do appreciate your words of apparent encouragement.

[Sinequanon]

Thanks for the tough love. I don't intend to substitute others' opinion for my own here, only to weigh them in my decision. If problems like the ones enumerated here begin mounting before marriage, something like this could be the straw to break the camel's back. I think at last count, 80% (4/5) of NT posters who had been married to SFs are now divorced from them, and the one that is not had a few caveats to make (not to mention Sesquipedalian's failed SJ dating relationship). I won't break it off for that reason, but it has given me the necessary sense of caution about proceeding here. Regardless, the answer I wanted from the outset is, "NTs and SJs are a great pair"; since that's not the case, I do appreciate your words of apparent encouragement.
If objective analysis is what determined whether marriage is a good investment of time, money, energy, etc, then no one would ever get married. Would you invest 50% of your assets into something that you're practically guaranteed to lose in 60+% of the time?

What I'm saying is that personality type isn't a sole determiner for anything. No, SJs and NTs typically don't get along. But hell, neither do men and women. ;) There are a lot of interesting factors that lie outside of personality typing that are important to the success of a relationship. Personality typing cannot tell you how mature a person is. It can't tell you whether they will cheat or not. It can't (contrary to popular belief) tell you how emotional a person is. It doesn't determine how they spend money or share finances or how much they might enjoy travel or what their sense of humor is or whether they can cook (or cook well) or if they like to go to sleep with the TV on or if they feel some mad, compulsive desire to keep the heat on at 80 degrees in the summer like a madwoman (I mean who the hell does that, seriously) or ....

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. ;)

I applaud the fact that you're not looking at marriage in a blissfully ignorant manner. Nothing is better unexamined. The fact that you're reaching out for help is admirable.

[elsdfr]

Congrats for having the guts to post your thoughts chipdouglas. I've thought about doing it in the past as I have wrestled with the pros/cons of an ESF relationship because it was one of the few that I actually enjoyed. But unfortunately there are many differences that are hard to weigh up so I completely understand why you are doing it.

That said the only advice I have is that you need to go WITH YOUR HEART and not your head, yes I'm sure you have feelings down there, somewhere. Rationalising a relationship that is supposed to be forever is not the right way to go in my opinion as love is supposed to be unconditional and as you say things about her may change.

Plus as an NT I'm guessing you need to love someone for what they are and I think SF's need someone to love them.

Good luck.

[azelismia]

If objective analysis is what determined whether marriage is a good investment of time, money, energy, etc, then no one would ever get married. Would you invest 50% of your assets into something that you're practically guaranteed to lose in 60+% of the time?

What I'm saying is that personality type isn't a sole determiner for anything. No, SJs and NTs typically don't get along. But hell, neither do men and women. ;) There are a lot of interesting factors that lie outside of personality typing that are important to the success of a relationship. Personality typing cannot tell you how mature a person is. It can't tell you whether they will cheat or not. It can't (contrary to popular belief) tell you how emotional a person is. It doesn't determine how they spend money or share finances or how much they might enjoy travel or what their sense of humor is or whether they can cook (or cook well) or if they like to go to sleep with the TV on or if they feel some mad, compulsive desire to keep the heat on at 80 degrees in the summer like a madwoman (I mean who the hell does that, seriously) or ....

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. ;)

I applaud the fact that you're not looking at marriage in a blissfully ignorant manner. Nothing is better unexamined. The fact that you're reaching out for help is admirable.


that's not true though, men and women can and do get along fine. the trick is finding compatibility. You state that sj's and nt's don't typically get along.. So why would you want to force the issue?

What he is describing here, regardless of the letters put upon it, is incompatibility. Sure you can walk on egg shells your entire life but is that anyway to live?


the other things you mention just don't matter if you can't communicate. that is what personality analysis is good for, helping to understand where others are coming from and when a bridge can be built to span the gap and when it cannot..

Nt's are very different from SF types, too different for it to be the ideal or best choice.

it's just a matter of reality. As an NF, you're an idealist, you rebel against looking at things from a practical angle but NT's look at things from a practical angle.

why spend years of your life on something that isn't going to make anyone happy? Sure you can make something struggle along for years if you are dedicated to it, but why do that when there are other options available to you that are better.

It's like picking a vacation to a waste land because it's closer to you (and you don't want to hurt the wastelands feelings) than going to Hawaii.

[Sinequanon]

that's not true though, men and women can and do get along fine. the trick is finding compatibility. You state that sj's and nt's don't typically get along.. So why would you want to force the issue?
I'm thinking that the "men and women don't get along" bit might have been a joke. The proximity of the ";)" to the line was the tipper, to me.

And it's not forcing the issue, because we're dealing with individuals, not abstract beings. Typology isn't a class system. They're not members of a warring tribe. There's no reason to take it as gospel law that says that there's no way the two of them can be compatible. The question is to what extent would their relationship be different than, say, an NT-NT or NT-NF or NT-SP relationship. It doesn't mean it can't be fulfilling, but it will just be different than the so-called "ideal."

What he is describing here, regardless of the letters put upon it, is incompatibility. Sure you can walk on egg shells your entire life but is that anyway to live?
That may very well be true, but I doubt my competency to make that call. I would say they should definitely seek pre-marital counseling, though.

My major objection is really the concept that this individual "INTJ," whatever that means, can't possibly be compatible with that individual "ESFJ" because hey, look at that dirty "S" in her type line.

it's just a matter of reality. As an NF, you're an idealist, you rebel against looking at things from a practical angle but NT's look at things from a practical angle.

why spend years of your life on something that isn't going to make anyone happy? Sure you can make something struggle along for years if you are dedicated to it, but why do that when there are other options available to you that are better.

It's like picking a vacation to a waste land because it's closer to you (and you don't want to hurt the wastelands feelings) than going to Hawaii.
"Reality" is stacked against marriage as it stands. The fact is, people don't look at marriage in a realistic way, NT, SF, IP or EJ. A realistic look at it would kill the institution before it got started. As I mentioned, the divorce rate is crazy high. That isn't a function of N-S miscommunication issues. Even N-N pairings divorce.

My point in talking to the OP hasn't been to say that it's going to be a bed of roses and tra-la-la. It's been to say "Hey, what the fuck? Do you love this girl? Are you willing to fight for her? Are you going into this marriage knowing you'll have to passionately want to make it work, every day?" Of course, she has to want the same things, and if she has no interest in understanding him (which is something that is type related but not deterministic), then of course things will fail, just as relationships fail when some arrogant NT decides to not listen to his or her NF spouse because of their silly "feelings" getting in the way of "reality," as though anyone has a true claim to it. Marriages don't succeed or fail based solely on type.

[intjdude]

Are you willing to fight for her?

i never really understood this phrase... who (or what) *exactly* are we fighting?

[Sinequanon]

i never really understood this phrase... who (or what) *exactly* are we fighting?
Are you trying to be pithy or are you seriously asking this? Because if you're just trying to make a funny point, I'll let it slide but if you really don't know, you're about to get a bigass tidal wave of NF-speak. ;)

Choose wisely!

[azelismia]

I'm thinking that the "men and women don't get along" bit might have been a joke. The proximity of the ";)" to the line was the tipper, to me.

And it's not forcing the issue, because we're dealing with individuals, not abstract beings. Typology isn't a class system. They're not members of a warring tribe. There's no reason to take it as gospel law that says that there's no way the two of them can be compatible. The question is to what extent would their relationship be different than, say, an NT-NT or NT-NF or NT-SP relationship. It doesn't mean it can't be fulfilling, but it will just be different than the so-called "ideal."


That may very well be true, but I doubt my competency to make that call. I would say they should definitely seek pre-marital counseling, though.

My major objection is really the concept that this individual "INTJ," whatever that means, can't possibly be compatible with that individual "ESFJ" because hey, look at that dirty "S" in her type line.


"Reality" is stacked against marriage as it stands. The fact is, people don't look at marriage in a realistic way, NT, SF, IP or EJ. A realistic look at it would kill the institution before it got started. As I mentioned, the divorce rate is crazy high. That isn't a function of N-S miscommunication issues. Even N-N pairings divorce.

My point in talking to the OP hasn't been to say that it's going to be a bed of roses and tra-la-la. It's been to say "Hey, what the fuck? Do you love this girl? Are you willing to fight for her? Are you going into this marriage knowing you'll have to passionately want to make it work, every day?" Of course, she has to want the same things, and if she has no interest in understanding him (which is something that is type related but not deterministic), then of course things will fail, just as relationships fail when some arrogant NT decides to not listen to his or her NF spouse because of their silly "feelings" getting in the way of "reality," as though anyone has a true claim to it. Marriages don't succeed or fail based solely on type.


if you say something like that with a wink or not, odds are you believe it on some level. as far as the rest, I will reiterate my point because you seem to have failed to understand it.

the type system is an INDICATOR of personality. it is a tool to understand where communication may break down. The input receptors for nt's are put in a different place than where they put them on an SJ. the two are alien to each other.

you can make ANYTHING work if you bang your head against the wall enough, but why would you do that?

why not pick a critter with a similar input receptor who is on the same basic wavelength.

Love is not a magical thing that makes everything ok and worth while. it's a chemical high. it goes away after awhile and then your left with ugly harsh reality.

as far as what the successful marriage entails numbers of divorce rates don't tell you anything. divorce happens for many reasons and not all of the people are staying together because they are inlove or happy.


I do agree that it's best to know what you want before marriage. Which is why looking at things without the rose colored glasses on realistically is very important. I do think the N/S letters are the most important in a relationship. it is almost impossible to bridge the gap between N and S unless you heavily use S as a N type or heavily use N as an S type.

[Sinequanon]

if you say something like that with a wink or not, odds are you believe it on some level.
Or I make lots of funny observations based on typical interactions. But you can read as much into it as you want, up until the point where I literally tell you what I meant by it. Anything beyond that is you forcing some layer of thought on me that I didn't intend, which I don't appreciate. Moving on, though.
as far as the rest, I will reiterate my point because you seem to have failed to understand it.

the type system is an INDICATOR of personality. it is a tool to understand where communication may break down. The input receptors for nt's are put in a different place than where they put them on an SJ. the two are alien to each other.

you can make ANYTHING work if you bang your head against the wall enough, but why would you do that?
In the abstract, maybe you wouldn't. Thing is, he already loves her. Maybe you missed that detail. Like I said, we're dealing with people, not an abstract question. It's not realistic to filter the people in your life out by MBTI type. You can't choose the types your parents or siblings are going to be. You have to learn to love and accept them. The other 3 people in my family are S's (2 SPs and an SJ), and I love them all. I don't find it difficult to communicate with them, because we foster a common understanding and respect for one another. If your inclination is to say that the S-N divide is unconquerable, then you're going to fail going in.

But you'd be superimposing your subjective reality onto them (just as your insistence that my little throwaway joke was more than it was). And in the case where these are two actual people in love, it's incredibly irresponsible for you, or anyone, to tell them that "it can't possibly work" based on a personality type theory.

why not pick a critter with a similar input receptor who is on the same basic wavelength.
Yes, why not? But since they've already chosen one another, then they've got their hump to work over.

Love is not a magical thing that makes everything ok and worth while. it's a chemical high. it goes away after awhile and then your left with ugly harsh reality.

as far as what the successful marriage entails numbers of divorce rates don't tell you anything. divorce happens for many reasons and not all of the people are staying together because they are inlove or happy.


I do agree that it's best to know what you want before marriage. Which is why looking at things without the rose colored glasses on realistically is very important.
I sure would love for you to point out where I've said anything with "rose-colored glasses" on. Seriously, I feel like I'm being stereotyped.

Hell, we're 2 N's and we're having an obvious schism, right? ;)
I do think the N/S letters are the most important in a relationship. it is almost impossible to bridge the gap between N and S unless you heavily use S as a N type or heavily use N as an S type.
They're important, but they're not unconquerable. S-S interaction is one thing. N-N interaction is another. N-S is yet another.

[azelismia]

.


Yes, why not? But since they've already chosen one another, then they've got their hump to work over.


I sure would love for you to point out where I've said anything with "rose-colored glasses" on. Seriously, I feel like I'm being stereotyped.



They're important, but they're not unconquerable. S-S interaction is one thing. N-N interaction is another. N-S is yet another.


uh first point that I left in is a good example. you have this idealistic notion that if two people have stayed together out of convenience ( yes he also insinuated the only reason he was sticking on is because he was afraid of not being able to find someone else) they should work on it until it works.

the question to be raised is why? if it isn't working you don't have anything in common and are not understood by your partner... why would you work on it instead of just understanding that some things can't be fixed? you live with them or you don't. he keeps talking about changing her and she wants him to change. if you need to change your partner, you need to walk. it is idealism to think change can occur. you can't change your personality. you are who you are.

The schisms are unconquerable. you can either live in their shadow and be unhappy or happy depending on what it is you want, but you can't change them.

[Sinequanon]

uh first point that I left in is a good example. you have this idealistic notion that if two people have stayed together out of convenience ( yes he also insinuated the only reason he was sticking on is because he was afraid of not being able to find someone else) they should work on it until it works.

the question to be raised is why? if it isn't working you don't have anything in common and are not understood by your partner... why would you work on it instead of just understanding that some things can't be fixed? you live with them or you don't. he keeps talking about changing her and she wants him to change. if you need to change your partner, you need to walk. it is idealism to think change can occur. you can't change your personality. you are who you are.
The opposite of your saying it's "impossible" is if I were to say the challenges they face in communication were irrelevant. I'm saying they're conquerable, or bridge-able. That's a far cry from being idealistic.

It is wildly unrealistic to say that S types and N types can't learn to communicate with one another.

[intjdude]

Are you trying to be pithy or are you seriously asking this? Because if you're just trying to make a funny point, I'll let it slide but if you really don't know, you're about to get a bigass tidal wave of NF-speak. ;)

Choose wisely!

[life vest on.... check]
[rubber ducky in pocket... check]
[bottle of suds... extra large bubbles... check]
[propeller hat on to signal rescue... check]

I've always liked direct language because nobody gets BSed in it. So, first of all that phrase annoys me because it implies we're fighting some 3rd person in the room when there's just me and 'her'. It's sounds like language to 'soften' the reality. Clearly, i'm fighting her. So i don't like it for that to start with.

But sometimes i do wonder if that phrase also means we're "fighting our own good judgement" in order to compromise with the other?

the point is... that i am the way I am because that's how I want to be (i got my reasons)... and she is the way she is because that's how she wants to be (i presume)... SO.. if i "fight for her", then I must be fighting against myself... no?

hence, who (or what) *exactly* are we fighting?

[savvymermaid]

Hello,

I'm an INTJ, 49, and have had an on-again, off-again relationship with an ESFJ for the past 28 years. Let me say that things have improved with age and maturity and with our having experienced other types of people.

As an INTJ, let me point out to you (INTJ to INTJ) that most of the other personality types find us incredibly difficult to be with for long-term relationships. In fact, INTJs, in general, aren't well-suited for intimate, day-to-day relationships unless they've done a lot in experiencing life and people.

In other words, I've had to experience a lot of relationships over the years to come to appreciate my ESFJ and am now compromising and trying to connect emotionally instead of just intellectually. (You might want to consider perusing books on "hiding from love" to see how the "T" in "INTJ" can easily become a protective barrier instead of a bridge to others' hearts and souls.)

Amazingly, at least according to certain online articles (for which the forum's servers won't let me share the links), INTJ-ESFJ is considered to be a good match.

It depends upon what you're looking for in a relationship--if you're looking to pretty much staying just as you are and relating just as you are, then an ESFJ probably isn't a good match.

If, however, you're looking at evolving into a different (better?) human being, an ESFJ might be your relationship ticket because of the tricky balancing act involved in making the match succeed.

From my own experience, I can say it's taken a lot of work and sacrifice on both of our parts to make it work this time (2+ years and going strong). Intellectually, I look elsewhere for stimulation. He finds a social life with his buddies from work.

My ESFJ has a wonderful heart and is great with my child. I've spent a great deal of effort "educating" about my INTJ personality so that he's not offended by my intellectual demeanor, which often comes across as being "uncaring" to ESFJ types.

I've had to learn to be more "tender"--Hallmark cards and ecards for no special reason; more social--I can't tell you how many dinners and parties I now go to and help organize in order to keep my ESFJ happy; more tactful--I try to frame observations and analyses in a more socially acceptable way (i.e., I walk on eggshells a lot).

The point is, there are tradeoffs with EVERY relationship. Currently, the tradeoffs with my ESFJ man are worth it.

If you decide to stay in your current relationship, you'll need to focus on the positive and try to make yourself a little less INTJish by becoming "easygoing" and biting your lip on a lot of occasions. It'll be a struggle but, as you've mentioned, starting from scratch with another person will be too, especially for us INTJ types.

Good luck!

[juliet]

hey - just wanted to chime in I'm trying to divorce my ESFJ (he thinks he's an ENFJ - which he is at work some, but never anywhere else - total ESFJ in relationships). It's partly a lot of other issues, but the personality type stuff has been a huge disconnect. Really huge. The relationship has been painfully unsatisfying for me. An emotional wasteland. His huge social life, family of origin life, and also addictive/compulsive personality and controlling nature have just about stifled me all that I can take. He doesn't understand me no matter how he tries. He resents my intellectual side and is irritated by my interests and pursuits. He's a huge ball of emotional energy and hates logical discussion. He used to try more. It's been 8 years. I don't want to go another 30. Just my experience.

(BTW - his huge extended family has been HELL to deal with in this process - hiring PI's to follow me, stalking me themselves, coming over to the house to yell at me saying I made up his alcoholism and violent threats. The super enmeshed extended family thing is hell. He's got his huge extended social network convinced of all kinds of made up and hyped up crap about me. He's hit every house on the street to tell his tales of woe. Funny thing - up until 6 months ago when I first said I wanted a divorce he told everyone I was the perfect wife and that 90% of our problems were his fault. It's amazing how the facts change for an ESFJ once their feelings change.)

[PortInStorm]

It is clear from some people that an INTJ-ESFJ partnership is possible--if not happy--but what I hope to learn from the people who associate with ESFJs, especially in a romantic context, is can an INTJ-ESFJ partnership be mutually rewarding in the long term? It sounds like, save for 1 or 2 of you, the thought of an ESFJ's companionship sends chills down your spine. If so, is this coming from people with good ESFJ experience or is this just a reflex?

I've had a decent ESFJ experience (like Blossom, my F and T are almost equal), and I still think it is tougher than most pairings.

At my age, the amount of time it takes to determine real compatibility, my personality type, and my investment in the relationship so far, it is understandably terrifying to think of breaking it off.

Please, please, don't stay in the relationship for fear of starting all over again, of losing your invested time etc. It is much preferrable to do so than live the rest of your life in a difficult relationship.

Our "values" regarding how we treat each other, handle money and children, etc., match up very well.

My husband and I have very similar values as well. It does not alleviate that feeling of emotional and intellectual distance.

And you're right: I hate to acknowledge it and I've probably known it all along, but the family situation is probably a wash. Dad is more or less loaded, so even if we moved cross-country, it is likely that he would be only too happy to "help" us make it back home 5+ times a year each time we had a vacation. This would at least solve the larger extended family problem, but in moving I would be giving up 25 years of area connections (friends and family) that even she doesn't have.

Please, I'm begging you, don't underestimate the primary loyalty a lot of ESFJs (not all) have to their family. This has probably been the hugest issue in our marriage, and he has a pretty great family. You will never be able to reduce their hold on her, in all likelihood, and as an extension, they will have a degree of control over you.

By the way, how did the controlling ESFJ women interfere and how tolerable was it? I may be experiencing this, as the mother's expectations of me seem to suggest she thinks I am dating her as well as her daughter. I have already told the GF, "tongue-in-cheek," that if her mother thinks I'm dating both of them, she's in for a long disappointment.

As I say, my in-laws are pretty great. But 'interference' comes in the form of solid and unyielding expectations that the son is theirs, should do what they ask whenever they ask it (because these expectations are reasonable to them), and should be available to help them unless something drastic gets in the way. It does not matter that you don't think you're getting involved with her family, YOU ARE. PERIOD. If you make her choose between you and her family, you will be destroying her inside, and you may not like her eventual decision.

The biggest issues I see so far are (1) her utter inability, even refusal, to communicate on an NT plane and (2) the ceaseless family meddling, with their penchant for inappropriately assuming control and emotionally manipulating anyone they can.

Can you live with this the rest of your life? These are serious, serious, issues, even though I have had some amazing experiences with ESFJs. They can be so homey, loyal, caring, tender, and accomodating. Mine remembers important occasions and is romantic,

[boldbidder]

I'm married to ESFJ (6 years) and it definitely can work, and can be rewarding. A couple of key questions I'd pose that I don't see mentioned in other posts:

*Does spending time with her drain you? Meaning do you have the same sensation spending time with her that you do if you were to go to a cocktail party e.g. you need to unplug for a few hours.

*Have you all pursued any common goals or interests together?

In fairness I'll answer my own questions:

*No, I do not get the 'drained' sensation from spending time with my ESFJ wife I can say unequivocally that I can spend time with her ad-infinitum the same way I can with only two other people, my father (ENTJ) and my best friend (INTJ). It could be that my ESFJ has some INT tendencies or well developed cognitive processes, but for example we can sit on the couch for a few hours me on my laptop her enthralled in a logic puzzle or novel and not say anything.

*Yes, here is where I think the INTJ/ESFJ pair up really shines. We have pursued many things as a unit over the years weather it be financial goals, exercise programs, etc... The beauty of this symbiosis is that we compliment each other wonderful, in the financial arena she likes me to set the overarching strategy (e.g. lets starting saving X each month for a college fund) she'll the go line by line through the budget shaving a few dollars here and few dollars there to arrive at the right number. I would strongly encourage you to pursue things together, her S function will help cover the low-level details that INTJs can but often loathe to do.


Lastly, in regards to the part of your post concerning career, this is the only major issue I see based on what you've described. It is imperative to let her know that you love her, but pursuing your goals is not something that can be compromised, explain to her that if she is attracted to you as you are then she needs to understand that far reaching goals are a part of your being and will not change. If she's open minded she'll understand. I had the same conversation with my wife, then girlfriend when were in our senior year of undergrad. She was originally from Louisiana and I was from the Chicago area. We lived together our Senior year and she was planning to move back to Chicago with me because I'd accepted a job there. She understood that moving around would always remain a distinct possibility based on my career aspirations and she was cool with it. Having that conversation before a formal commitment is made is critical.

Good luck.

[CJay]

In reading the description of an ESFJ I disagree with some of it but I wonder if it is totally correct for me. Then I see a thread on relationships and it causes me to register on a forum..... so maybe it does fit... I have tested before and got the same thing ESFJ.

Anyway I am an ESFJ (if you couldn't tell already by my rambling and not getting to the point) I apologize to all of the INTJ's for this long post.... My Hubby is constantly telling me, "10 words or less please, 10 words or less!" I love details and have a hard time leaving them out.

I have been married to an INTJ for 11 years, it will be 12 years on Sunday. We didn't do any personality testing before we got married. My Mom is a ISFJ and she actually met him first and really liked him and thought I should talk to him. So I did and we hit it off instantly, he was a bit shy sure... but I would talk to a wall so once I got him talking he opened up. He was just a friend, I wasn't thinking about dating him when I met him. Then he became my best friend and I loved him dearly and I was searching for the "perfect" guy and I was easily annoyed by anyone and everyone that I dated and I could call him on the phone and gripe to him about the guy I just went on a date with. He would listen and say uh-huh at the right times while partially tuning out. Poor guy it must have been torture for him, sometimes we would talk for 5-6 hours......

Then after a few months of this I was like why can't I find a guy like.......... Hey!! Wait a minute!!! He IS a guy like him!!! I realized that I loved him for more then just a friend, debated telling him or not telling him. I decided I just had to tell him, even if it pushed him away I had to tell him or else I couldn't live with myself. So I told him and he felt the same way the he thought I knew..... but I didn't have a clue.... he never tried to flirt or anything. So we talked and decided it wouldn't change much if we started dating so we were a couple from then on. He was just a really nice guy, he made me laugh, he was so sweet in a genuine and non-cheesy way, smart, whitty, charming, very much a gentleman... He respected me and my beliefs. We shared most of the same social and ethical beliefs and behaviors. I am more religious then he is but he isn't against it and was willing to go along with it. He was even willing to go along with the whole waiting for marriage thing and left that choice up to me, big church wedding, he agreed to dance and smile for pictures on our wedding day.... but ONLY on our wedding day. He hates pictures and I love taking pictures... I can't tell you how many pictures I have of his middle finger....

My parents were too different and were only married for 10 years so I wouldn't even date someone who I didn't think I would be compatible with or find interesting and shared the same morals and goals that I had or those that complimented what I wanted. I had a long list of things and if they didn't match up I wouldn't even date them. The most important to me was no smoking, no drinking, no drugs unless the doctor gives them to you, no fooling around, be willing to have 1-2 kids and some dogs, didn't have to be rich but needed some career goals, someone who would love me, be there for me, listen to me, make me laugh, fun to be around, sensible, logical, but interesting enough that I wouldn't get bored. I am stubborn and I like to do what I want to do and when I want to do it, but I also didn't want some pansy push over guy who I could just order around 100% of the time. I wanted someone with some personality and some fire in them. Not an egotistical jackhole but someone with some confidence and who wasn't afraid to put people in their place if they wronged me. If someone wronged me then they deserved some arrogance thrown at them... I like a little bit of grumpiness too and mischievousness too, but not a bad boy.

My Hubby is not sure how he passed the test and claims he was never sweet, but in his own way he was and still is. He does not compliment very often so when he does it is just that much more special to me. He didn't really compliment me a lot before we were married either but he would just do little things that let me know he cared, he still does but he would give me more back rubs back then... and he would not complain if I wanted to listen to KennyG or Enya. Well.... his excuse is, "I was 19 and I wanted in your pants!" Back rubs, foot rubs, paint my toe nails, buy me jewelry for no reason, take me to lunch, dinner, movies, the beach... cooked breakfast for my Mom and I (I lived with my Mom at the time) and actually did a good job, (but he has not cooked since and claims he doesn't know how!) He never really tried anything too inappropriate because he knew the other guys would get slapped and knee-ed in their fun bits if they tried again.

We were engaged for 11 months and then got married, he was barely 20 and I was 19 almost 20. He is a tarus and I am a leo and we are both very stubborn. In most situations we compliment each other and when one is upset the other one is calm or when one is worried the other one is not worried etc.. We have been through a lot of together and everything we go through seems to just make us stronger. We don't really fight a lot, we annoy each other sometimes though. It was kind of hard for me to understand him at first I kept trying to please him and nothing ever really made him really happy. All I really wanted out of life was to live by the beach, house, white picket fence, 1-2 kids, couple of dogs an suv and a husband who loved me that I could grow old with, middle class or upper middle class was fine with me... but not him... he wanted to be a gazillionare. I wanted to go to college but then I wanted to stay home as soon as I had kids and not work outside the home. I am pretty traditional, yet I am pro-choice and I don't want any man telling me what I can or can not do with my body or telling me I could not be a doctor or lawyer etc. I want to burn my bras while prince charming holds the door open for me.

I think the thing with him that was really hard for me to accept is that nothing is ever good enough for him. Which makes me feel like I am never good enough for him. I am a naturally happy and cheerful person and had very good self esteem otherwise his personality may have crushed me. He will say things that to him is just normal and he is very hard on himself. So if I do something I am proud of and I tell him or show him he will be like oh ok.... big deal, try harder next time, or good job but you still have a ways to go....it has to be something really big to get his praise. But then sometimes just out of the blue he will actually say thank you, or i love you, or i missed you etc... or that is ok, you have done enough for me lately I will get it myself. He says anyone can say those things, but actions speak louder then words and if he didn't love me and didn't want to be with me he wouldn't come home every day and give me 100% of his paychecks to do as I see fit with and leave all of his bills and finances up to me and let me be the one who cooks all of his food and scrubs his toilets and could easily ruin his life if I wanted to.

When I am struggling with something he is not that sympathetic unless I get to a point that I either get really mad or I cry or I actually have to ASK him for help he will just let me solve it myself. I am very practical, I try to be logical and he calls me a rules nazi, but also I am very emotional if it is something I feel strongly about so lots of times I seriously debate with myself and he just lets me stew for a few days and then I figure it out and tell him what I decided and he will sit there with a smug look on his face and say something like yeah I knew you would decide that... But he won't just tell me what he thinks in the first place on a lot of things he wants me to make my own decision but often in making me make my own decision I am picking what I think he would like best. He can very easily manipulate me and I hate that.... oh he makes me so mad sometimes! He won't make the decision but I know what he likes/wants or can make a pretty good guess so then I end up picking what he wanted anyway.. drives me crazy!

But I can not stand the thought of being selfish and not caring how he feels. Unless it is something that I really want and it wouldn't be a big deal and he might gripe and complain but he wouldn't get too upset over it. Then I do what I wanted to do, which is normally something like buy something or decorate something a certain way or paint a room a color he might not like. One morning he was leaving for work and told me that the kitchen was my domain and I should take charge of it. When he came home he wanted me to have something planned for dinner, cook it and that was it. He didn't want me to give him a choice in what was for dinner, even though he is a picky eater. So I said OK the kitchen is my domain huh..... so I went out to the garage and got the paint supplies and started painting the kitchen. Then we had to go out to dinner because of the paint fumes. He said that was NOT what he meant by saying the kitchen was my domain. :)

He likes to make me mad, he likes to see me get fired up and fuss at him because he laughs at me and says I am cute when I am angry. That just makes me even more angry and then he laughs more. It isn't just him... other guys say the same thing, even my Dad agrees... Dad says I am just like my Mom when I am mad only I have more of his temper and strength and how he liked to make my Mom mad on purpose too... Then I reminded him how they were only married for 10 years... but they had other issues too. If it is something seriously wrong or someone hurt my family or my dogs or did something totally uncalled for then I can turn into a spiteful raving witch. But until someone pushes me to that point I am one of the sweetest, nicest, more caring people ever. My motherly instincts are very strong and he often says, "Yes Mom!" but if I don't look after him then he thinks I don't care. He likes it when I make a fuss over him he just won't admit it. We don't have kids just two beagles. We tired after he was done with school but I have a fertility problem and it wasn't happening so we just moved on to the "if it happens it happens" stage.

I am very sappy, I love him more then words can express and I can not imagine my life with anyone else. He would have to do something seriously wrong to get rid of me. If he does something that I don't like I let him know about it and he normally knows it is coming and has a big grin on his face waiting for me to fuss at him. Most people that we let get to know us find us entertaining and they are often shocked at how funny he is. When you first meet him he can seem cold, rude, arrogant and like a real jerk. Then they realize that is all part of his charm and realize how sarcastic he is. He hates small talk and he hates takling to people who won't understand him or who will just ask him the same questions next time they see him. He is very smart, very confident in what he knows and doesn't know and gets annoyed when he says "I can't help you" and people keep asking him for help anyway.

His parents think he is rude, yet they are the most rude people I have ever met.... gee wonder where he gets it! That brings me to the other part of your post the family.... My in-laws never liked me.... they wanted him to wait until after college to get married and they thought I was stealing their brain child away from them. He was their hope for the future... he was suppose to be a brain surgeon and find the cure for cancer and make them rich and support them... well BS!!!!! He never intended to do any of that either. They tried to bribe him not to marry me. They said he could live with me but don't marry me.... They were afraid he would get me pregnant while he was still in school and drop out and end up selling shoes his whole life like Al Bundy. They told him they would pay for his tuition, his rent, car, insurance, books, food, clothes, utilities and anything else he needed but only if he didn't marry me. He said "No thanks, we would make it on our own" and we did! I worked full time while he went to school and he worked too as much as he could with being a student. We took out student loans and charged credit cards more then we liked but we made it and we survived and we did it all on our own. His parents tried to break us up more then once... including 3 days before our wedding and had the nerve to call my Mom and ask her if she would help them.

Oh we also met in CA and I moved to KS for him so he could finish school because out of state tuition in CA was too much and his parents were in KS and even though he lived and worked in CA their address had stayed as his permanent address. So I left all of my friends and family behind for him because I couldn't stand the thought of being apart. Then we moved from KS to MA and I followed him another 1500 miles further away from my family, but also 1800 miles away from my in-laws now, WoooooHoooo!!!! :)

He walked by and saw me posting on this forum and he says Oh no! your not actually going to post on there are you?? I said yep! He said something like your long posts are going to fry their brains. So I asked him knowing what he knows now, to honestly tell me if he would have tried to pick a different personality type and what annoys him the most about me. I told him that he wouldn't get in trouble, just tell me.

He says the following bugs him about me:
1. I am too wordy, get to the point already.
2. I talk to him about issues that I don't want him to solve.
3. I procrastinate.
4. He does not like it when I want to decorate a room for cheap or I buy something with the intentions of repainting it just because it was on sale and I couldn't find anything else that I liked better. He hates the "design on a dime" crap and that goes back to the nothing is ever good enough for him. (I bought some slipper chairs that I plan to recover and he would have rather I not buy them and have people sit on the floor instead.... They were $300 chairs that I got for $50 and I could not find any that matched the room anyway and I had been looking for months.)
5. I am too emotional and tell him that I love him each and every day (yet he acts hurt if I don't say it....) Sometimes I get my feelings hurts too easily and I sometimes make decisions based on feelings just because it felt right or I have a bad feeling about something.
6. I procrastinate and then do things hastily and at the last minute.
7. I don't try hard enough, nothing is every good enough for him, why can't I try harder, he can't even do anything right and so how can I expect to be right the first time so I need to just keep trying if I can't do something, try harder, push yourself more, don't rest on your laurels, just keep going and trying.

But other then that he says I am the perfect woman... lol

He does say that I can be draining at times, but other times I relax him and help him. He has mentioned in the past that he wishes I liked more history and Smithsonian type of stuff. I will watch History Channel with him, or Discovery or the Smithsonian Channel but I don't really have a desire to go to the Smithsonian. I will watch stuff about the planets and it is interesting but some of it doesn't make sense and it hurts my brain when he tries to explain it and I don't remember all of it anyway. People always said I was smart and I always got good grades in school but he is freaky smart and it can make me feel dumb sometimes. I like watching Star Trek and Star Wars with him and I will watch action movies and Kung Fu, but I can't stand scary movies at all. He begged me to watch the Grudge and I couldn't sleep well for weeks! I try not to vent too much to him and I just talk to my Mom a lot during the day when he is at work and doesn't have to hear it. I try to keep things short and to the point with him but I still end up talking too much. I have found that if it is something important that I want him to know that he listens to me better if I email him or msg him. Sometimes I end up talking like a cave woman just to keep it short. "Me want leather furniture when move new house!". He smiled and said, "Sure"

So now that my post has probably bored you to pieces, if you truly love her and can't stand the thought of not having her in your life then marry her. Her family will probably not get any better and likely want to be around even more after you have kids. I would hope that once you had kids she would realize that she is too busy with her own kids to be worrying about everyone else's though. If things bother you now they will certainly bother you later on too. I seriously suggest talking to her and open up and share your concerns and let her know how bad those things bother you. If she truly loves you she should be willing to work on those issues or at least if she feels the need to still see her family a lot, not to drag you with her each and every time and you can stay home and have your much needed INTJ alone time... to play your video games and listen to music and tune out the whole world.

[Synamon]

Anyway I am an ESFJ (if you couldn't tell already by my rambling and not getting to the point) I apologize to all of the INTJ's for this long post.... My Hubby is constantly telling me, "10 words or less please, 10 words or less!" I love details and have a hard time leaving them out.
I go with "Do you have a point?". My husband hates that. :laugh:

He walked by and saw me posting on this forum and he says Oh no! your not actually going to post on there are you?? I said yep! He said something like your long posts are going to fry their brains. So I asked him knowing what he knows now, to honestly tell me if he would have tried to pick a different personality type and what annoys him the most about me. I told him that he wouldn't get in trouble, just tell me.
Is he on the forum? :ninja: That was very brave of you to ask him and to post the list.

He says the following bugs him about me:
1. I am too wordy, get to the point already.
2. I talk to him about issues that I don't want him to solve.
3. I procrastinate.
4. He does not like it when I want to decorate a room for cheap or I buy something with the intentions of repainting it just because it was on sale and I couldn't find anything else that I liked better. He hates the "design on a dime" crap and that goes back to the nothing is ever good enough for him. (I bought some slipper chairs that I plan to recover and he would have rather I not buy them and have people sit on the floor instead.... They were $300 chairs that I got for $50 and I could not find any that matched the room anyway and I had been looking for months.)
5. I am too emotional and tell him that I love him each and every day (yet he acts hurt if I don't say it....) Sometimes I get my feelings hurts too easily and I sometimes make decisions based on feelings just because it felt right or I have a bad feeling about something.
6. I procrastinate and then do things hastily and at the last minute.
7. I don't try hard enough, nothing is every good enough for him, why can't I try harder, he can't even do anything right and so how can I expect to be right the first time so I need to just keep trying if I can't do something, try harder, push yourself more, don't rest on your laurels, just keep going and trying.

But other then that he says I am the perfect woman... lol

You were doing so well with the first few points and then the details crept back in. I tend to tune my husband out when that happens. Yes, I know I shouldn't. I'm going to show him this list, I'm sure he can relate.

Welcome to the forum.

[CJay]

lol thanks.
I TRY but I just can't resist the details!

He has been reading this forum but I don't think he registered, he doesn't like people but he told me something like, "I found my own kind! Look there is a whole forum of us!" He sent me the link to the Q & A page and said I have been telling you this for years! It was rather funny because it sounded so much like him that I actually thought it was a joke and that he wrote it at first. :)

[Henry]

He says the following bugs him about me:
1. I am too wordy, get to the point already.
2. I talk to him about issues that I don't want him to solve.
3. I procrastinate.
4. He does not like it when I want to decorate a room for cheap or I buy something with the intentions of repainting it just because it was on sale and I couldn't find anything else that I liked better. He hates the "design on a dime" crap and that goes back to the nothing is ever good enough for him. (I bought some slipper chairs that I plan to recover and he would have rather I not buy them and have people sit on the floor instead.... They were $300 chairs that I got for $50 and I could not find any that matched the room anyway and I had been looking for months.)
5. I am too emotional and tell him that I love him each and every day (yet he acts hurt if I don't say it....) Sometimes I get my feelings hurts too easily and I sometimes make decisions based on feelings just because it felt right or I have a bad feeling about something.
6. I procrastinate and then do things hastily and at the last minute.
7. I don't try hard enough, nothing is every good enough for him, why can't I try harder, he can't even do anything right and so how can I expect to be right the first time so I need to just keep trying if I can't do something, try harder, push yourself more, don't rest on your laurels, just keep going and trying.

But other then that he says I am the perfect woman... lol

2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 were weaknesses of my ex ESFJ. 1 was also, but it usually ended in some impossibly illogical or revealing point, which could be pointed out to mutual hilarity, so I didn't mind.

I do not, however, think that saying "I love you" regularly is a bad thing, unless its said so often that it becomes meaningless.

[CJay]

Synamon:
My Hubby says he hasn't really been reading the forum because it is too many words for him... he was mostly looking at the Q&A page and the Do's and Don't's page.

He says, "Good job CJ, you just ruined that relationship!" "Your post alone should be enough to send that guy running and screaming away from his GF". He didn't read my post, he says he doesn't have to, he already knows what it says. He said it is very long and wordy with drawn out details and it probably starts off on topic but then I add more details which lead me to even more details and then I have to include at least 4 personal examples and then cross reference those to something else and add more details and then my post ends up being 10 times longer then any other post by an INTJ.

So if any INTJ actually reads my full post word by word and doesn't tune out then you get a cookie.


Henry:
I think he just likes to be grumpy and make people think he is grumpy. He says I am so cute and cuddly that I make him sick. I do make him laugh and smile a lot, even if he is rolling his eyes while he is smiling. He also likes saying something witty and sarcastic and making me mad then hiding behind one of the dogs and saying you can't be mad at us can you??? Normally I just say "ILU" when he is leaving for work or if I leave to go somewhere or at bed time. But sometimes I say it other times when I annoy him and he is rolling his eyes at me and then I say it in the my "cute" voice and he says something like "Don't remind me" or "Oh my ears!!! They are melting!!!" At which point I will get a mad look on my face and he cracks up and I get even more mad and then he is no longer mad because I am mad... then somehow he never gets in real trouble and I end up cooking him dinner.

I am the kind of person that could say I love you 20 times a day and seriously mean it each time. I did get mad at him once and decided I wasn't going to say it and I didn't and it tore me up, I had to resist picking up the phone and calling him to tell him.. Then he missed hearing it and started to think I didn't love him anymore so he asked me why I stopped saying it, did I not love him anymore? This morning it was "Love you, have a good day!" his reply... "Do chores today". Sometimes it is, "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" or his favorite, "I know" or "Blah!" or "Dishes!", "Laundry!", "Clean House", "Unpack Boxes" or whatever thing he wants me to do that day.

[Hatsumomo1]

With regards to relationship compatibility, I take the MBTI and throw it out the window. It's not gospel, it's not an infallible god, it's not the secret of the universe. It's a theory and a largely unscientific one at that. I personally think it does more harm than good because it puts mental "blinders" on you. You see how it is in the book and tend to accept that's just the way it is, without looking at the possibilities.

INTJ's can be compatible with ANYONE they want to be compatible with. An SJ, an NF, another NT, a dog, whatever. Looking back, I can say that my better romantic relationships have been with SJ's, and the one NF relationship I had turned out to be one big joke (it literally felt like I was dating a psychotherapist who in reality didn't know much about me, but thought he did.) This may be because I was basically raised by a single ISTJ and therefore I'm quite comfortable with them, but it does go to show you that anything is possible.

You need to ask yourself some questions. INTJ's are known to have ridiculously high standards, but for good reason. Does your potential life partner meet them? If she doesn't, I'd back away, because keep in mind you're going to be spending a lifetime with them. Don't settle for good enough either. And don't even THINK about trying to change her personality so she does meet them. When you love someone enough for marriage, you love them for exactly who they are, not who they could be.

Relationships need respect, commitment, understanding, and trust. Understanding of course comes from communication. And you need to work to keep all of those things, too. You have to ask yourself are you willing to do that for this person? If you're not, forget about ever marrying them.

Please keep in mind that she should be mindful of these kinds of things, too. If she doesn't respect you, understand or willing to understand you, trust you, or have any sense of commitment towards you, the relationship has a strong potential to be abusive and toxic.

I've only been in a relationship with my ISFJ for just under two years now, so take it for what it's worth to you. Indeed, xSFJ's have a very strong sense of family. When you marry one, you marry their family. You do need to respect that they'll do anything for them, even if it's to their inconvenience. My ISFJ does the same thing. It used to bother me and it still does to a certain extent, but at the same time I admire his commitment. I learned in the beginning of our relationship that he basically lives to serve, and he loves it. Such an ideal is very contrary to my idea of independence for all, but I respect it. In your case, the thing I'd watch out for is how all of it's affecting her. Is this affecting her in a negative way, or does she love serving her family? If she expresses loathing or if you can see it's eating away at her mental or physical health--which is very possible for an xSFJ--then you should try to talk to her about it in a way she can understand you (this is where the MBTI comes in handy.) If she loves it, you need to either respect that or leave. For an xSFJ, family always comes first.

As for intellectual conversation, we can do this from time to time, but more often than not we quickly hit a brick wall where no amount of logic in the world can persuade him. I told him that it's important that his arguments can hold rational water, but he said "That's the way I think, and I don't care what other people think of it." I respected that, so I backed off. I do need intellectual stimulation, but it's not like he's the only human being I'm in contact with. I'm quite capable of getting my intellectual needs fulfilled with my NT friends or the people on this forum. At least then I can be as "nasty" as I want in my debates and not even have to worry that it's going to affect them personally or make them lash out at me. To be honest, with all the debates I get myself into on this forum and with my irl friends, it's nice to come home to warm, strong, open arms at the end of the day without questioning my opinion on various intellectual topics.

So NT/SJ relationships can indeed work. Don't close people out or wave the white flag just because they're a specific personality type. That's being lazy, IMO. The only question you should be asking is what your standards are and how does she meet them.

I agree with Sinequanon's suggestion of professional pre-martial counseling. It could be a real eye-opener, and it couldn't hurt.

[JustMel]

Just a thought but have you thought about setting MBTI aside and looking at it from a HUMAN perspective?

I think you're putting too much emphasis on type. Either you enjoy her company and see yourself with her long term or you don't. MBTI is great when used as a tool or guide but using it to determine if you want to continue the relationship because of what MIGHT happen is using it as a scapegoat.

[Challenge Me]

*twitches....tooo....many...details.....
malfunctioning....shutting down in 3...2...1...
I agree with Hatsumomo.....personality types are not correct about everyone 100%....I would not base your interactions with people upon what a template personality definition says. Rather, treat each person individually. I would say MBTI is more of a guide than gospel.
And yes, I am pretty adaptible if I want to be. I can get along with anyone, as I am pretty laid back in my approach to people....it just doesn't matter as much, so I'm willing to just roll with it if you are worth it.

[Henry]

This morning it was "Love you, have a good day!" his reply... "Do chores today". Sometimes it is, "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" or his favorite, "I know" or "Blah!" or "Dishes!", "Laundry!", "Clean House", "Unpack Boxes" or whatever thing he wants me to do that day.

It sounds like you two may work because it sounds like you're about as submissive as he is dominant. Although I think ESFJs may have a tendency for this, I think dominant/submissive games are a bit outside of MBTI considerations.

[CJay]

You know he says I am submissive and others have said that too but I always thought I was dominant. He says, "You just think you are dominant... and you definitely dominate conversations because you just have a need to hear your teeth rattle". I control the money, he makes it and I spend it :) He doesn't get much say in the house on how things are decorated and when buying a house it is pretty much he selects a house off of my short list. So I pretty much get what I want and do what I want (he says, because he lets me), except I don't take enough time out for myself, typical ESFJ.... He can come off as selfish sometimes but he will catch himself and it makes him feel bad and then he tries to get me to focus on me. He can easily talk me into getting a cheaper car so he can get a more expensive one, or he gets a new monitor and I get his old one, but I feel bad when I get the new one first and I would feel bad if I spend too much on my car and he couldn't get one for a long time. What I want to know is when did I become so weak minded that I can be controlled by an INTJ....... I blame it on love!

But I agree I think some things in a relationship just depend on the two people and not a personality test. If you really have strong feelings for someone I think you can make it work no matter what personality types you are. You either agree and are two peas in a pod, or you disagree and fight and have some steamy make up sessions or you just learn to compliment each other and balance the other one out. It is amazing how quickly he can calm me down and get me to look at both sides of something. I can calm him down too but it normally takes more effort and involves him pacing around the house while arguing with all of the voices in his head before he will calm down. I can sometimes distract him with ice cream or a big steak though. For me I just need a hug or a back rub and someone to listen to me or tell me it will be ok, we will figure something out and then let me rant.

[Rudy]

So if any INTJ actually reads my full post word by word and doesn't tune out then you get a cookie.

I demand my cookie, now!



Seriously, I read the whole thing. It's very sweet, and gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling. :)

[JohnDoe]

I used the search function to explore members' compatibility with the ESFJ type, and I am loath to acknowledge it seems uniquely grim. Been at it for 1.5 years though, so I don't want to give it up without a second opinion. For what it's worth, she scored strong in all ESFJ categories (especially J).

We are not having any problems and by rights this should be consummated with marriage. However, I recognize that the enamor will wear off sooner or later. Because I see marriage as a non-negotiable lifetime contract, I don't want to "test-drive" it only to find once the smoke clears that we really have nothing in common. She, on the other hand, "believes in love" and thinks my preoccupation with logistics/statistics is unromantic and unproductive.

Here is a look at our compatibility now, though let me preface the "weaknesses" by saying I have my own, partially-INTJ-related weaknesses: emotional detachment, coldness, self-absorption, poor listener, etc.

Don't put too much faith into type compatability. At the end of the day, if you love each other, have no current problems, and are willing to work if you have communication issues, then go get married. If you two are already looking at how to prevent differences in communication from becoming a problem, I have no doubt that you will be able to handle any issues that arise. Good luck!

[CJay]

If you two are already looking at how to prevent differences in communication from becoming a problem, I have no doubt that you will be able to handle any issues that arise. Good luck!
I agree with John, but since I am an ESFJ I needed to take up 5 pages to say the same thing..... I seriously hope that I didn't scare you away and that you give us an update later and post wedding pics. :)


*twitches....tooo....many...details.....
malfunctioning....shutting down in 3...2...1...

So sorry, My Hubby says I reboot his brain about once a week... you can have a cookie too!

I demand my cookie, now!
Seriously, I read the whole thing. It's very sweet, and gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling. :)
Cookie and cheesecake for you.

[deicruxified]

my s.o. is esfj, so is my mom, and a friend. let's just focus on my s.o. (fact: we've been together for a year and a month)

e: i get to deal with the "e" side of them. i just find the time when they are preoccupied with a lot of things to get my dose of solitude. as for my case, my s.o. watching tv. i just don't like his friends though. i'm 2 or 3 notches higher in the status quo so i never get to understand rowdiness and informality that much however, i'm learning to reach out unlike before. another con for "e" would be is whenever he's got problems about the relationship, his circle of friends knows it.

s: the s is helping me a lot. we got the same passion which is traveling. whenever i plan, i show him my strategy and ask whatever minor details i should take care off that i have overlooked. the con.. the MAJOR con, is that when i express myself, he always takes it literally and fails to see the bigger picture. he's always counting... from how many pictures he has vs other people in my camera to how many minutes i have spent talking to him in our whole day. it's really annoying.... and yes you are right about the "intellectual" conversations part. i have never lured my esfj into discussing mysticism, religion, etc...

f: attention seeker...

[jndiii]

My ex is ESFJ (insofar as I can tell, no formal test, but the descriptions are quite apt, and CJay sounds just like her ...).

The MBTI type is a good indicator of problems, but the question is how to handle those problems. The reason she's "ex" is after she became disillusioned with me, she decided that I needed to be more E and more S and more F (I was already plenty J enough for her). A simple example: she'd be happy to go over her work day in exquisite detail, and I'd be happy to listen, BUT she'd want -me- to go over my workday similarly, or she'd get upset if I offered advice on how to fix a work problem as opposed to simply listen and empathize. When it became clear that I wouldn't/couldn't behave more like her (1.5 years of marriage counseling - I'm beginning to think the counselor was ESFJ, too ...), we parted ways.

The thing is, we got along just fine. We still get along OK (she'll call and I'll listen to her ramble for an hour or so, and then it's over), we share very similar values; we just process information differently and react to it differently.

We perhaps could still be married if we had both been more wise, but just the same, I'd think twice before marrying another ESFJ.

[Xaleph]

Though I agree that any personality type can thrive well in a marriage relationship - ESFJs would require the most amount of work.



My mother, sister, and several close friends are ESFP

My mother in law is ESFJ (and my second sister is either ESFJ or ISFJ... most likely ESFJ) - this is where the difference is very very obvious.


From my experience this is what I've determined:


ESFP wants everyone close to them to feel happy and will do anything the ESFP can to entertain/uplift their close ones. They will feel guilty if you aren't happy and will start going overboard to make you happy - they will eventually fall apart unless you reassure them that you are excited about looking serious and thinking.... or whatever they are misinterpreting to be unhappy behavior.

ESFJ wants everyone close to them to feel happy and will force others to feel or act this way since they should feel this way. They will utilize guilt manipulation to make you feel bad for breaking a standard, hurting people's feelings, or acting unhappy (even though you may just be thinking about a cure for cancer, some change of algorithm for some software, or other logical problems ticking in the back of your head).


I have a ridiculously hard time getting along with the ESFJs in my life and have been trying to find a quick way to diffuse them (I'm no longer trying to appease them because from much experimentation - I've determined it is impossible).


Can it work - yes, there are more things involved in a marriage relationship other than MBTI. MBTI won't tell you about anger issues, vindictive behavior, maturity, how dirty you fight, and various other things that directly effect the marriage relationship. I just don't see ESFJs as worth the effort if you have the choice - but that's just me I suppose.

[SultanOfSuede]

Slightly OT:

Chip, let me just say how delighted I am to read your luxurious analysis. So, so reminds me of my own internal dialogues in this department, but w/o quite the borderline pedantic bulleting of pros/cons :)

I suspect you already had your answer by the time you finished writing the OP. Anyway, I admire your gift and hope you've the sense to use it IRL.

[themuzicman]

If you want an assessment of whether to marry this girl ask yourself these two questions:

1) Am I able to meet her needs and alter my style so that we can communicate together?

2) Am I willing to do that for the rest of my life, in exchange for the positives she brings?

I would also establish some barriers regarding her family. Maybe you go there twice a year, and she once a month or something. You'll have to work that out, but the extended family thing CAN be worked out, if you're both willing to make it work.

I would drag her (yeah sounds kinda funny) out to find some new non-family friends. Some more well adjusted ones. Now, you'll have to endure some E*F* loonieness, but that's part of what she needs from friends.

From you, she's doing to need to feel appreciation, which means you're going to need to find something that you truly appreciate about her (or several things), and constantly be expressing that appreciation. make it a ritual.

Make an effort to learn all of her needs and decide whether you can either meet them or arrange for her to be able to meet them, and then decide whether you are willing to do those things.

[Solaris]

I basically have an aversion to SF males for any type of serious relationship. I think this is largely due to the tremendous failure of a relationship I had with an ISFP male. Being ENTJ, I am simply relating my own experience of being with my opposite to others. Personally, I think complete opposites are a horrible idea. For some people, this works, but not for me.

Something I have brought up previously, and I still believe, is that the whole MBTI "ideal match" is a very nebulous thing and gender-biased. I generally think that all those supposed matches are assuming the T in the relationship is male. If the woman is the T, I don't think many of those matches are that great.

Similarly, I am biased because of my own negative experiences with ESFJs. I do think my aunt might be an ESFJ, and I do like her, so there are good ones out there. I do not mask that I generally do not like them. I've also seen more than one INTJ-ESFJ relationship crumble or blow up.

I think in such a relationship, it really just matters what you are both looking for in the relationship. I also think it's horrible and unfair to convince oneself to stay in a relationship that hasn't yet reached marriage. Compromise and such are important, but a shared ability to understand and communicate effectively are more important. If you don't have the basis for that now, marriage won't magically make it happen.

[Storm]

Something I have brought up previously, and I still believe, is that the whole MBTI "ideal match" is a very nebulous thing and gender-biased. I generally think that all those supposed matches are assuming the T in the relationship is male. If the woman is the T, I don't think many of those matches are that great.

Why do you think that male Ts need an F but female Ts need a T too?

[realJim]

this thread is near & dear to me, I've been married to an esfp for 30 years. Everyone has contributed a lot of good advise, experience, and views.

Some of my thoughts
Negatives: lots of drama (often in cycles), adjustment to the SF way of doing things, internalizing a lot of myself, adjusting long term goals

Positives: not boring, learning to adapt and let go, getting more sociable, learning to live for the moment

I think two mature adults that share values and have common interests CAN build a great bond, BUT the more different your types are the more conflict you can expect. Adults can learn to play nice, take turns, not say bad things that haunt you. The problem is even adults are weak at times, and painful things are remembered more vividly than good things. People can't easily change. Only you can change your expectations.

Good luck.

[Seducer]

Why do you think that male Ts need an F but female Ts need a T too?

Perhaps in general males want F's and females want T's.
Traditionally it's the role of the man to be the provider
and the woman's role to be the nurturer.
We still have some things genetically hard wired into our subconscious minds
regardless of cultural changes.

BTW That first post was informative but excruciatingly long.
I had to skim over it.

[Solaris]

Why do you think that male Ts need an F but female Ts need a T too?

It's really just a matter of subjective experience and observation. I don't actually think any type *has* to have any other particular type in order to be happy. In my opinion, it really depends upon the individual (personality and experiences). However, most of the T women I have known, prefer T men. For me, personally, several failed attempts with F men and a really great relationship with a T man, and several really great friendships with T men (especially NT men), have shown me which is more successful and satisfying for me.

[catzmeow]

I'd say that, in general, INTJ + ESFJ is a horrible match. I and many other members on here believe that life is a whole heck of a lot better and easier when you match Ns with Ns and Ss with Ss. I do think matching Ts with Fs is a good idea and the I/E thing is negotiable, although personally I prefer to be more of a recluse so I like me some I :P. J/P also not a huge factor for me.

I'm an ENFP who was married to an ESFJ. We matched on the fun-loving side of things, and our intense feelings, but the N/S split is a huge one. S's tend to see things in black and white. They want rules, structure. They're more likely to be religious AND more likely to belive that their religion is "THE TRUTH." They are threatened by disagreement, and see it as a personal attack.

The J/P thing isn't a big deal between an ESFJ and an INTJ, but I will say that the P/J does make a difference if you are the P. The J can feel quite judgemental and critical at times, no matter how well-intentioned it is.

I think the pairing between ENFP and INTJ is much stronger than any kind of N/S pairing because of the intellectual connection. I like to think about things. I'm often to be found pondering things in my head, exactly the way my INTJ does. Also, when we discuss politics, religion, people, science, neither of us is threatened by disagreement. If anything, it hones our positions and makes them stronger, and one or the other of us will sometimes change positions because we aren't as fixed as an S.

The S coupled with J can result in VERY black/white thinking patterns, IMHO.

[mnmeq]

... They are threatened by disagreement, and see it as a personal attack.

The J/P thing isn't a big deal between an ESFJ and an INTJ, but I will say that the P/J does make a difference if you are the P. The J can feel quite judgemental and critical at times, no matter how well-intentioned it is.

based on what you said, I can't imagine a relationship with an esfj lasted almost 3 years, but now I can see that a lack of understanding this on my end might have been one of the primary factors that did things in.
on the flip-side I got a lot of lectures on how to hold my utensils. intj would probably have a little better compatibility.

[L30]

My gf is esfj too and she's already on the marriage bandwagon. She thinks love can solve every problem etc. etc. ...she sees life totally through pink lens.
Shit, I'm trapped! I don't want to marry and I want to live alone but I don't want to lose her either, such a loving girl with a great family and she is absolutely INCREDIBLE in the kitchen..
She knows I'm against marriage and very skeptic in general about the chances of people living (happily) together for a lifetime... but she will never back down, she's really a true esfj...
I am an introverted nerd, barely managed to get this one normal gf in my lifetime (previously I had long distance semi-relationships with internet socially troubled girls._.).
It was no coincidence: my gf, literally, would talk to a wall...
One day she will want to move in and get married, and then the gr8 SHIT will hit the fan because I'll have to barricade my house to keep her out -_-
Previously I didn't have too many problems in breaking up when I got bored but this one SCARES me, she is so fucking intense and committed, I think she will try to kill me if I dare leave her.
Man life is hard.. ._.

[Solaris]

My gf is esfj too and she's already on the marriage bandwagon. She thinks love can solve every problem etc. etc. ...she sees life totally through pink lens.
Shit, I'm trapped! I don't want to marry and I want to live alone but I don't want to lose her either, such a loving girl with a great family and she is absolutely INCREDIBLE in the kitchen..
She knows I'm against marriage and very skeptic in general about the chances of people living (happily) together for a lifetime... but she will never back down, she's really a true esfj...
I am an introverted nerd, barely managed to get this one normal gf in my lifetime (previously I had long distance semi-relationships with internet socially troubled girls._.).
It was no coincidence: my gf, literally, would talk to a wall...
One day she will want to move in and get married, and then the gr8 SHIT will hit the fan because I'll have to barricade my house to keep her out -_-
Previously I didn't have too many problems in breaking up when I got bored but this one SCARES me, she is so fucking intense and committed, I think she will try to kill me if I dare leave her.
Man life is hard.. ._.

If any of that is in earnest, I completely pity you and simultaneously want to slap you. It's clear she already has you under her control and you are afraid of her. You don't seem to have that independence you were referring to anymore. So you either need to hit her with the reality stick, or, conversely, you need to quit being such a self-contradicting doofus. You say you both want to be with her and don't want to be with her -- which is it? You think she's loving and has a great family, but doubt people can live together happily -- what's so awful about her? What are you so damn afraid of, I'm thinking it's not her fyi.

[uneingenue]

i hope your love for a person isn't based on four arbitrary letters.

[L30]

If any of that is in earnest, I completely pity you and simultaneously want to slap you. It's clear she already has you under her control and you are afraid of her. You don't seem to have that independence you were referring to anymore. So you either need to hit her with the reality stick, or, conversely, you need to quit being such a self-contradicting doofus. You say you both want to be with her and don't want to be with her -- which is it? You think she's loving and has a great family, but doubt people can live together happily -- what's so awful about her? What are you so damn afraid of, I'm thinking it's not her fyi.
I'm afraid of commitment. I'm worried that one day she will want to move in and then I will be under her control, I'll lose my freedom, I'll end up doing whatever she says just to avoid arguing with her. I'm not an assertive person, I'm just independent, but I need to be alone. Prolonged company always becomes a burden for me.
My parents hated each other, argued constantly, always harbored bad feelings... I've seen how bad it can get in a house, and I don't want that anymore, I don't want to argue to do whatever I want to do, I don't want to explain myself, I don't want to negotiate, to compromise. All I want is freedom and peace for everyone. If I always have someone around I'm just not ok, I'm not free. Other people always want something and I just... can't.
For these reasons, I don't think I can trust my gf (or anyone else) to live with me.
On the other hand, I'm afraid that if I become assertive I'll be just like my father... he was never home (obviously he wanted his own space!) and when he was he would -at best- ignore us. Always harsh, he didn't really care about his family, only wanted to do his thing his own way. True he provided for us financially, but that was all. Good enough maybe, but not my idea of a happy family. It was wrong. I can't risk it happening again to me, because now that I'm grown up I can see myself in his old ways. So no commitment and no moving in, at least not until I mature out of all this shit, which could be tomorrow or never.
Maybe ur right and I should let her go, but I can't right now anyway, she's in the middle of something important and it would be cruel to leave her now. So I'll just keep being my beloved P and procastinate the decision :)

[Aristocrat Porn]

No way, you cant be serious. Considering marrying insert type here? Is that what we are coming to?



You can do better than that mate. How about you forget typology at least when deciding to marry someone. Have a look at the individual in its own context just that once, maybe? I mean, really, god save ireland...

[MadmanMSU]

i hope your love for a person isn't based on four arbitrary letters.

No way, you cant be serious. Considering marrying insert type here? Is that what we are coming to?

QFT

I'm afraid of commitment. I'm worried that one day she will want to move in and then I will be under her control, I'll lose my freedom, I'll end up doing whatever she says just to avoid arguing with her. I'm not an assertive person, I'm just independent, but I need to be alone. Prolonged company always becomes a burden for me.
My parents hated each other, argued constantly, always harbored bad feelings... I've seen how bad it can get in a house, and I don't want that anymore, I don't want to argue to do whatever I want to do, I don't want to explain myself, I don't want to negotiate, to compromise. All I want is freedom and peace for everyone. If I always have someone around I'm just not ok, I'm not free. Other people always want something and I just... can't.
For these reasons, I don't think I can trust my gf (or anyone else) to live with me.
On the other hand, I'm afraid that if I become assertive I'll be just like my father... he was never home (obviously he wanted his own space!) and when he was he would -at best- ignore us. Always harsh, he didn't really care about his family, only wanted to do his thing his own way. True he provided for us financially, but that was all. Good enough maybe, but not my idea of a happy family. It was wrong. I can't risk it happening again to me, because now that I'm grown up I can see myself in his old ways. So no commitment and no moving in, at least not until I mature out of all this shit, which could be tomorrow or never.
Maybe ur right and I should let her go, but I can't right now anyway, she's in the middle of something important and it would be cruel to leave her now. So I'll just keep being my beloved P and procastinate the decision :)

You need to work on your own issues before you should consider anything permanent.

[Solaris]

I'm afraid of commitment. I'm worried that one day she will want to move in and then I will be under her control, I'll lose my freedom, I'll end up doing whatever she says just to avoid arguing with her. I'm not an assertive person, I'm just independent, but I need to be alone. Prolonged company always becomes a burden for me.
My parents hated each other, argued constantly, always harbored bad feelings... I've seen how bad it can get in a house, and I don't want that anymore, I don't want to argue to do whatever I want to do, I don't want to explain myself, I don't want to negotiate, to compromise. All I want is freedom and peace for everyone. If I always have someone around I'm just not ok, I'm not free. Other people always want something and I just... can't.
For these reasons, I don't think I can trust my gf (or anyone else) to live with me.
On the other hand, I'm afraid that if I become assertive I'll be just like my father... he was never home (obviously he wanted his own space!) and when he was he would -at best- ignore us. Always harsh, he didn't really care about his family, only wanted to do his thing his own way. True he provided for us financially, but that was all. Good enough maybe, but not my idea of a happy family. It was wrong. I can't risk it happening again to me, because now that I'm grown up I can see myself in his old ways. So no commitment and no moving in, at least not until I mature out of all this shit, which could be tomorrow or never.
Maybe ur right and I should let her go, but I can't right now anyway, she's in the middle of something important and it would be cruel to leave her now. So I'll just keep being my beloved P and procastinate the decision :)

I disagree with this notion that there is, in fact, a *good* time to break up with somebody. There isn't. If you are too weak to do what is right for you (and I'm not saying it necessarily is), it's really quite unfair to everyone involved.

Have you told her the things you just shared with us? Maybe you should. Maybe you should consider the type of marriage where the couple does not live together (they are happy and want to be married, but cannot or will not share living space). Whatever you do, you have some serious baggage holding you down, and holding you back. Find a way to process it and let it go. It's not helping you at all.

[rain]

Also, her complete inability to discern nuance can be another problem.

This is probably more of a FEELER trait than a SENSOR trait. Sensors are great at detecting nuance- especially in the environment or in conversation.

To be honest, your experience seems to mirror mine when I dated an ESFJ. He drove me crazy because he hated debating about just random things that I never thought was very important- and to him DISAGREEING meant we were incompatible- whereas I found debate stimulating and exciting.

I think in the long run- you'll probably get bored- and if resentful- might start to verbally abusive each other take mental punches at each other.

[catzmeow]

I'm afraid of commitment. I'm worried that one day she will want to move in and then I will be under her control, I'll lose my freedom, I'll end up doing whatever she says just to avoid arguing with her. I'm not an assertive person, I'm just independent, but I need to be alone. Prolonged company always becomes a burden for me.
My parents hated each other, argued constantly, always harbored bad feelings... I've seen how bad it can get in a house, and I don't want that anymore, I don't want to argue to do whatever I want to do, I don't want to explain myself, I don't want to negotiate, to compromise. All I want is freedom and peace for everyone. If I always have someone around I'm just not ok, I'm not free. Other people always want something and I just... can't.
For these reasons, I don't think I can trust my gf (or anyone else) to live with me.
On the other hand, I'm afraid that if I become assertive I'll be just like my father... he was never home (obviously he wanted his own space!) and when he was he would -at best- ignore us. Always harsh, he didn't really care about his family, only wanted to do his thing his own way. True he provided for us financially, but that was all. Good enough maybe, but not my idea of a happy family. It was wrong. I can't risk it happening again to me, because now that I'm grown up I can see myself in his old ways. So no commitment and no moving in, at least not until I mature out of all this shit, which could be tomorrow or never.
Maybe ur right and I should let her go, but I can't right now anyway, she's in the middle of something important and it would be cruel to leave her now. So I'll just keep being my beloved P and procastinate the decision :)

Have you ever considered talking to her openly and candidly about what you're feeling? Setting boundaries and talking to her about why you need them? Introducing her to MBTI so she can learn to meet your needs (primarily, leaving you alone at times), just as you learn to meet hers?

If you can't do these things, you're right...you are definitely not ready to get married...and neither is she. Just because your parents had an unhappy marriage doesn't mean you have to. IN fact, you have already learned from watching them what things you wish to avoid in your own life, so you are one step ahead of them.

[realJim]

Setting boundaries and talking to her about why you need them?

Good advise! (boundries) If someone doesn't respect space and your needs, it will only get worse. Love her, let her love you, and have an open dialog. If you can respect each other the relationship can work.

[JonnyJB]

Just found this forum, very helpful. I'm currently engaged to an ESFJ. She's been enormously supportive getting through a painful divorce, a true Guardian, and she makes me laugh. The relationship has been strong for 6 years, and she moved in with me 3+ years ago. We've been engaged since December. The wedding is in two months.

From the painful divorce, I've insisted upon a prenup. This has been a bone of contention--she didn't want it, I made it very open that I did, so included her in my discussions with a lawyer so that it was transparent. All I wanted was the damn thing to be fair, so I don't get fooled twice. Now, it's become a real issue between us, she thinks it's "all about money" (which it is) but that I'm trying to screw her (which I'm not). My view is that marriage is about love, but divorce is about finances (probably too INTJ for her).

Now she's playing the "you never wanted to get married" card...probably an element of truth to that, but I really can't see myself with anyone other than her. I'm afraid of getting trapped in (another) difficult relationship, and I don't want to lose a true friend. Help me, fellow INTJs! What do I do?

[Storm]

If you don't want to get married, don't get married.

[Nikonman]

If you are and will always be the better earner, then she may never understand. If she is the better earner or might be someday, then there is a chance that someone (not you) can help her understand that this legal precaution is for her own good as well as yours. If someone on her side will validate to her that what you want is reasonable, then she might change her attitude.

Fortunately (at least for the purpose of a prenup discussion) my girlfriend was screwed over by her ex and almost ruined financially, so she will likely be receptive to a fair document that gives her some protections as well as me. I pay what amounts to a pretty good "salary" in alimony because I was the major wage earner by far for many years. A good prenup could have saved me a boat load of money. I won't make that mistake again.

[JonnyJB]

If you don't want to get married, don't get married.
Obviously, but thanks for the clarity of your comment. I am at a stage in life where being married is preferable to being single, but I'm not the naif I was when I married the first time (at 21). So, logically, I've got love, friendship, laughter, and a desire to be married...and a fear of getting screwed (again). Cold feet? or disaster brewing?





JonnyJB added to this post, 10 minutes and 33 seconds later...

If you are and will always be the better earner, then she may never understand. If she is the better earner or might be someday, then there is a chance that someone (not you) can help her understand that this legal precaution is for her own good as well as yours. If someone on her side will validate to her that what you want is reasonable, then she might change her attitude.

Fortunately (at least for the purpose of a prenup discussion) my girlfriend was screwed over by her ex and almost ruined financially, so she will likely be receptive to a fair document that gives her some protections as well as me. I pay what amounts to a pretty good "salary" in alimony because I was the major wage earner by far for many years. A good prenup could have saved me a boat load of money. I won't make that mistake again.
Yep, I will have better peak earnings (entrepreneur Mastermind vs. executive assistant Guardian).

Under present circumstances, the draft prenup is supposed to get passed to her lawyer (the thought makes me retch, but better now than later), and I imagine that her lawyer as an advocate will argue that she's getting screwed (billable hours, and all).

I basically don't see this ending well--we end up with a fair agreement and a crappy marriage (off on the wrong foot), when my goal is to have a good marriage (with adequate insurance).

[Storm]

Obviously, but thanks for the clarity of your comment. I am at a stage in life where being married is preferable to being single, but I'm not the naif I was when I married the first time (at 21). So, logically, I've got love, friendship, laughter, and a desire to be married...and a fear of getting screwed (again). Cold feet? or disaster brewing?

Why is it preferable to be married? 1 out of 10 people never get married. Do you really love this woman and want to spend your entire life with her, or do you just want to check the "married" box off?

[JonnyJB]

Answers:

1. Marriage is a personal preference, it's comfort/security more than anything.
2. I do love her, and can't imagine being with anyone else.
3. I've already checked (and un-checked) the married box. Maybe you're on to something about wanting to move forward, I dunno. Let me think about it.

[Blowfish989]

Marriage is always a bit of a crap shoot. Sure, you can make the lists and try to be as logical and rational about it as possible--I do see the appeal of that. You can try to peer into the future, see yourself living with this person, possibly parenting children together. The fact is, though, you can't see very far into the future. Maybe a year or two...but you can't know, when you say "I do," what that will mean in five years, ten, twenty... You can't know how you'll change, how your partner will change, or the experiences/epiphanies that will get you there. Other people's experiences will not necessarily be your experience.

Perhaps it's heresy to say this in the INTJ forum, but I think compatibility in the Five Big Things might trump personality types when it comes to long-term indicators of success or failure. And the Five Big Things in a marriage are: money, sex, religion, children, and in-laws.

[JonnyJB]

Marriage is always a bit of a crap shoot. Sure, you can make the lists and try to be as logical and rational about it as possible--I do see the appeal of that. You can try to peer into the future, see yourself living with this person, possibly parenting children together. The fact is, though, you can't see very far into the future. Maybe a year or two...but you can't know, when you say "I do," what that will mean in five years, ten, twenty... You can't know how you'll change, how your partner will change, or the experiences/epiphanies that will get you there. Other people's experiences will not necessarily be your experience.

Perhaps it's heresy to say this in the INTJ forum, but I think compatibility in the Five Big Things might trump personality types when it comes to long-term indicators of success or failure. And the Five Big Things in a marriage are: money, sex, religion, children, and in-laws.
Money is probably the biggest of these, sex isn't an area of significant disagreement at this point, and we agree on religion and kids. In-laws are out of the picture.

I don't expect that either of us will change substantially (we're both "older"), but I do want adequate insurance in the event of a divorce (i.e., a prenup). It seems that the mere act of asking for the insurance has brought the whole relationship into question, and so I find myself wondering if I'm really being understood, or if I just think that I am (while being my usual relatively accommodating, helpful self).

[lchristma]

MBTI personality type is only one facet of someone's nature, specifically how they process information and come to decisions. ESFJs and INTJs can share the same set of values, the same sense of humor, many of the same interests, the same ideology, the same goals, the same <insert whatever here>. A relationship with an opposite type can be complimentary instead of conflicted.

You may have noticed that not all INTJs on this forum are on the same side of every issue. Matching or similar MBTI types is no guarantee of a fit in values.


Excellent advice, communication is key in all long term relationships.

Agreed. I have been very happily married to my ESFP husband for 16 years. Our values and goals are the same. It took time to understand each other and learn to compromise. We work great together as parents. He is great in getting me to losen up and play as a family, otherwise I might be to focused on planning and working. He makes me feel more human and enjoy life for what it is versus having to analyze it. I have had more fun times with him than any other personality type. We both know that we speak a different language at times, but we just understand it. You just can't help who you fall in love with. For us, it was intent. We couldn't be apart from each other, but yet we didn't understand each other. He made me laugh harder than anyone else could. I couldn't imagine being married to another INTJ.





lchristma added to this post, 15 minutes and 41 seconds later...

that's not true though, men and women can and do get along fine. the trick is finding compatibility. You state that sj's and nt's don't typically get along.. So why would you want to force the issue?

What he is describing here, regardless of the letters put upon it, is incompatibility. Sure you can walk on egg shells your entire life but is that anyway to live?


the other things you mention just don't matter if you can't communicate. that is what personality analysis is good for, helping to understand where others are coming from and when a bridge can be built to span the gap and when it cannot..

Nt's are very different from SF types, too different for it to be the ideal or best choice.

it's just a matter of reality. As an NF, you're an idealist, you rebel against looking at things from a practical angle but NT's look at things from a practical angle.

why spend years of your life on something that isn't going to make anyone happy? Sure you can make something struggle along for years if you are dedicated to it, but why do that when there are other options available to you that are better.

It's like picking a vacation to a waste land because it's closer to you (and you don't want to hurt the wastelands feelings) than going to Hawaii.
I am sorry, but you don't have a clue. You make it sound like they can't get along because they don't have same personality traits? Open your mind. You don't sound like an INTJ. It is obvious that you know little about relationships in general, but yet acting like you are an expert. The purpose for personality trait tests is to learn how to communicate to others and see what the differences might be. It is to understand each other more, not determine who is most compatible. You can't come up with a formula or pattern to determine your perfect match. Love is unpredictable and it sounds like you just haven't been in love with an ESFP. So, how can you say with such certainty that it will fail? That is beyond arrogant. Explain to me why my relationship with my husband of over 16 years has made me a better person? Our relationship blows your theory that we could not work out.

Doug, with every relationship, it takes work. The work just is less hard when you love that person. Regardless of the personality type. I think what people may have doubted is if you really love her since you posted on here a pros and cons list. Many people worry if the person you chose will be your life mate. It is all unpredicatable, regardless the personality type. I can tell you one thing about being married to this personality; life has been very exciting and rewarding. He is a loyal friend and a wonderful lover. He brings out the best in me. You should be worrying about the baggage she may get with an INTJ.

[Hatsumomo1]

Just found this forum, very helpful. I'm currently engaged to an ESFJ. She's been enormously supportive getting through a painful divorce, a true Guardian, and she makes me laugh. The relationship has been strong for 6 years, and she moved in with me 3+ years ago. We've been engaged since December. The wedding is in two months.

From the painful divorce, I've insisted upon a prenup. This has been a bone of contention--she didn't want it, I made it very open that I did, so included her in my discussions with a lawyer so that it was transparent. All I wanted was the damn thing to be fair, so I don't get fooled twice. Now, it's become a real issue between us, she thinks it's "all about money" (which it is) but that I'm trying to screw her (which I'm not). My view is that marriage is about love, but divorce is about finances (probably too INTJ for her).

Now she's playing the "you never wanted to get married" card...probably an element of truth to that, but I really can't see myself with anyone other than her. I'm afraid of getting trapped in (another) difficult relationship, and I don't want to lose a true friend. Help me, fellow INTJs! What do I do?

If she is anything like my ISFJ fiance (which she is I suppose) she probably thinks that a pre-nup is a precursor to divorce. The way she sees it, you're suggesting a pre-nup because you're expecting that it won't work out, and therefore, setting yourselves up for failure. As an INTJ you're trying to be realistic and planning on what you're going to do if you come across the worst case scenario. She doesn't even want to imagine a worst case scenario.

Unfortunately I can't think of a way to explain this to her, as she'll probably still see it as a set-up for failure rather than a safety net. You could attempt to explain that you want this pre-nup because of previous experience. She might understand a little more then. I don't know.

But you have to ask if you're ready to marry HER. Is she so important in your life that you'll do just about anything for your marriage? Because once you buy a house together, cars, have kids, things have a good chance of heading downhill very fast. You have to ask yourself if you're going to be quick to call it quits. You also need to be sure that she'll be supportive of you as well. Only you can judge this from her past behavior. As an SJ I'm pretty sure she'll be supportive because they tend to greatly value family, though you may have some communication bumps along the way because you're an NT and she's an SF, and the two of you speak very different languages.

But if you don't think you two will be able to handle it, don't get married.

[Romeo]

If objective analysis is what determined whether marriage is a good investment of time, money, energy, etc, then no one would ever get married. Would you invest 50% of your assets into something that you're practically guaranteed to lose in 60+% of the time?

What I'm saying is that personality type isn't a sole determiner for anything. No, SJs and NTs typically don't get along. But hell, neither do men and women. ;) There are a lot of interesting factors that lie outside of personality typing that are important to the success of a relationship. Personality typing cannot tell you how mature a person is. It can't tell you whether they will cheat or not. It can't (contrary to popular belief) tell you how emotional a person is. It doesn't determine how they spend money or share finances or how much they might enjoy travel or what their sense of humor is or whether they can cook (or cook well) or if they like to go to sleep with the TV on or if they feel some mad, compulsive desire to keep the heat on at 80 degrees in the summer like a madwoman (I mean who the hell does that, seriously) or ....

I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. ;)

I applaud the fact that you're not looking at marriage in a blissfully ignorant manner. Nothing is better unexamined. The fact that you're reaching out for help is admirable.

I have to tell you though, I've been a Justice of the Peace for over 30 years. I officiate at about 15-20 weddings per year. Part of my services is to have the couple take the online Myers-Briggs Indicator. I'm a retired Project Manager for a Fortune 50 Corporation and was trained extensively in Myers-Briggs. After the couples take the MBT1 Indicator, I put together a document that tells them all about their personality types. I have found that the brides that are NF and NT seems to keep in touch with me. I never tell me that they may have obtacles to contend with with the N/S dicotomy but quite often, I find that within one year, they are telling me that they can't relate with their SJ spouses. There's frustration there. I don't find as many complaints with SP's. That's just observation on my part.

[Night Runner]

As far as I know, I've met (or gotten to know) only one ESFJ in my life. I used to have an ESFP roommate for ~2 years - we had some good times... Then, for some bizarre reason, he decided to marry his new girlfriend (they'd known each other for just a few months) and she ended up moving in while they sorted things out and decided to move to a place of their own. As we all know, when an ESFP and an ESFJ try to actually formulate a plan and act on it, it usually fails miserably. This one definitely did.

She was... I still don't know what exactly she was. If I had to describe her in one sentence, I'd say she was kind of woman that the mythical succubus was based on: a manipulative, emotional, hysterical bitch from hell. She would use her ESF combo to try and find the best way to become someone's friend, and then she'd use her J to manipulate that person (or at least that's what I've figured, given my basic knowledge of the MBTI theory). Once she latched onto somebody and decided to "befriend" them in her own way, she'd end up controlling every aspect of that person's life. When she inevitably broke up with the object of her affection, the poor guy wouldn't be able to handle it. Out of the three of her ex-boyfriends, one went insane and had to be institutionalized, and the other two tried to commit suicide. One of them succeeded...

Aaaaanyway, she moved in, dragged everyone in my (admittedly small) social circle into her net, and came to a screeching halt when she tried to find a way to manipulate (or suck up to) yours truly. I can only attempt to guess what her thought process was, but in the end, she decided I was a threat to her, if only because her usual tactics failed. She began to set my own friends and roommates against me - slowly and carefully at first - and started picking fights, provoking me and actually interfering with my personal life later on. In the end, she blew something I said way out of proportion, decided to make it her casus bellum, turned the waterworks to the maximum setting and convinced her then-fiancee (my roommate) to try to kill me. :stunned: That little adventure inspired this controversial thread (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) of mine.

I sincerely doubt that all ESFJs are like that - with my luck, I probably encountered one of the few ESFJs who went over to the dark side. Regardless, I am now very hesitant to meet - and especially date - other ESFJs and I'll probably stay very far from them in the foreseeable future...

[Zsych]

I expect competant emotional manipulation more from NFs than SFs. The techniques don't work quite as well on the detached and introspective :)

[PortInStorm]

Now, see if an NF was doing the manipulation, you wouldn't see it as such ;-) SJs can sometimes be more... blatant about it.

[dux]

Perhaps... a piece of advice from an INTJ who has been in a relationship with an ESFJ for 12 years now, and I can tell you...

we're getting a divorce as we speak.

Things just don't work out and it DOES NOT get better. The same problems keep occurring.

The initial attraction must have been quite big to overlook the differences (also, I was not into MBTI at the time, I got to know about it later on, but... she still doesn't want to go near MBTI at this time... the N/S difference, no doubt).

But, in the long run... no success...

[sunlover]

I am married to an ESFJ going on 10 years. Works just fine for us. Of course there's a whole bunch of other factors that determine a successful marriage besides type compatibility. Personally, I've found speaking the same "love language" as, if not more important to long term success then type compatibility.

[azelismia]

lchristma added to this post, 15 minutes and 41 seconds later...


I am sorry, but you don't have a clue. You make it sound like they can't get along because they don't have same personality traits? Open your mind. You don't sound like an INTJ. It is obvious that you know little about relationships in general, but yet acting like you are an expert. The purpose for personality trait tests is to learn how to communicate to others and see what the differences might be. It is to understand each other more, not determine who is most compatible. You can't come up with a formula or pattern to determine your perfect match. Love is unpredictable and it sounds like you just haven't been in love with an ESFP. So, how can you say with such certainty that it will fail? That is beyond arrogant. Explain to me why my relationship with my husband of over 16 years has made me a better person? Our relationship blows your theory that we could not work out.

Doug, with every relationship, it takes work. The work just is less hard when you love that person. Regardless of the personality type. I think what people may have doubted is if you really love her since you posted on here a pros and cons list. Many people worry if the person you chose will be your life mate. It is all unpredicatable, regardless the personality type. I can tell you one thing about being married to this personality; life has been very exciting and rewarding. He is a loyal friend and a wonderful lover. He brings out the best in me. You should be worrying about the baggage she may get with an INTJ.


how do you know what my experience levels are? you are making assumptions because what I say threatens your viewpoint. Nt's are very different than SJ's. the values fueling both are very different.

Why would it be impossible to make estimates of compatibility between types from this information?

I also never said it would certainly fail. I said it would require more work for a result that is less than optimal so if you're questioning it, ditch it. it's probably for the wrong reasons.

I am not just talking out of my ass on this topic. I've read hundreds of emails from people who have experienced this gap of understanding between people. SJ's (p's) are looking for a different experience than NT's tend to look for. It's a chasm that isn't often bridged and a good portion of the people that I have known who at first claimed to be happy, in this circumstance have ended up divorced. Just read the relationship forums. this is a repeating story. Same every time.

there could be a lot of reasons things work for you. the results of these tests are based on honesty in the test taking.

1. the test results might not be accurate for you and/or your husband or the preferences may be borderline bringing you closer together on the spectrum.
2. maybe you find joy in constant alienation. who knows. People have different desires of what they want from their relationships.

[brdmadgrl82]

Married to one for a year and so far so good :) I think I am more of a problem when I need to decompress and be left alone for a little when I come home...overall it can be done! :)

[Joe Kool]

I've known my ESFJ mate for 17 years and I've been married to her for 12 years. It is clear to me that MBTI is not the crystal ball nor the scientific method that determines relationship success but it is a good way to identify potential relationship problems. Opposite personality traits seem cute at first but can become major irritants later on in a marriage. There are many other factors and variables that determine relationship success. Theoretically, an INTJ-ESFJ relationship helps opposite types see the world from opposing viewpoints and thus bring balance into their life. Unfortunately it can also bring much conflict and develop our conflict resolution skills. This makes the relationship more work rather than enjoying a more natural compatibility. While some of our personality traits within my marriage have occasionally shifted, we always have that strong consistent pull to be our true self or personality type. Sometimes it may be difficult for either partner to fully understand or allow their mate to be themself when it conflicts with their own needs. I regret that on my wedding day I did not follow my instinctive hunch to run and run fast. The INTJ instinctively knows when something is wrong, this hunch or red flag can be felt but we are good at rationalizing everything and convincing ourselves why we need our partner. "We don't want to be alone sometimes so we settle for the immediate vacation to the nearby wasteland so we don't hurt the wastelands feelings rather than wait for the long distance trip to Hawaii where we are truly happy." My fellow INTJ, if you have cold feet or feel red flags popping up, listen to your gut feeling. Don't go by the MBTI but listen to your gut feeling. You can be lonely and miserable within a marriage relationship so don't settle for less than what you think you deserve. Even if it means being alone, wait until you find someone that you know both in your heart and mind they are really good for you. Divorce really sucks. Anyway, only you know if the relationship is based on true compatibility and there are many of the other factors that determine relationship success. If you still have doubts and want to force yourself to follow the wedding path with this girl, maybe you should both sign up for e-harmony, take all the tests and see how compatible you both are with each other. Even with all this, we still need to work everyday, educate ourselves on relationships all the time, and care for our marriage daily in order for it to grow and last. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth or personal opinion. Best wishes on whatever you decide to do.

[combustor]

Money is probably the biggest of these, sex isn't an area of significant disagreement at this point, and we agree on religion and kids. In-laws are out of the picture.

I don't expect that either of us will change substantially (we're both "older"), but I do want adequate insurance in the event of a divorce (i.e., a prenup). It seems that the mere act of asking for the insurance has brought the whole relationship into question, and so I find myself wondering if I'm really being understood, or if I just think that I am (while being my usual relatively accommodating, helpful self).

If she is receptive to logical argument, here is the one for prenups I find most convincing for myself (and true).

Marriage should be a personal contract between the man and woman involved, and NOT a domain of government bureaucrats. A prenup simply defines the agreement in certain terms, equitable to both parties and not dependent on what state you happen to live in and thousands of statutes that neither of you have read or are even aware of. If it appears to one person that the other is trying to "screw" them, they should not get married! I would not want my mate to sign an unfair contract, nor would I sign one. I would never get married without a prenup either; by doing so you are signing a contract that has been corrupted, bloated, and politicized by lobbyists and government stooges.

[Joe Kool]

I've known my ESFJ mate for 17 years and I've been married to her for 12 years. It is clear to me that MBTI is not the crystal ball nor the scientific method that determines relationship success but it is a good way to identify potential relationship problems. Opposite personality traits seem cute at first but can become major irritants later on in a marriage. You may spend more time fixing a relationship than actually having a relationship. There are numerous other factors and variables that determine relationship success. Theoretically, an INTJ-ESFJ relationship helps opposite types see the world from opposing viewpoints and thus bring balance into their life. Unfortunately it can also bring much conflict and develop our conflict resolution skills. Conflict resolution skills requires good communication and negotiation skills in order to "fight fair." This could make the relationship more of a struggle than enjoying a more natural fit or compatibility. While some of our personality traits within my marriage have occasionally shifted, we always have that strong consistent pull to be our true self or personality type. Sometimes it may be difficult for either partner to fully understand or allow their mate to be themself when it conflicts with their own needs. I regret that on my wedding day I did not follow my instinctive hunch to run and run fast. The INTJ instinctively knows when something is wrong, this hunch or red flag can be felt but we are good at rationalizing everything and convincing ourselves why we need our partner. "We don't want to be alone sometimes so we settle for the immediate vacation to the nearby wasteland so we don't hurt the wastelands feelings rather than wait for the long distance trip to Hawaii where we are truly happy." My fellow INTJ, if you have cold feet or feel red flags popping up, listen to your gut feeling. Don't go by the MBTI but listen to your gut feeling. You can be lonely and miserable within a marriage relationship so don't settle for less than what you think you deserve. Even if it means being alone, wait until you find someone that you know both in your heart and mind they are really good for you. Divorce really sucks. Anyway, only you know if the relationship is based on true compatibility and there are many of the other factors that determine relationship success. If you still have doubts and want to force yourself to follow the wedding path with this girl, maybe you should both sign up for e-harmony, take all the tests and see how compatible you both are with each other. Even with all this, we still need to work everyday, educate ourselves on relationships all the time, and care for our marriage daily in order for it to grow and last. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth or personal opinion. Best wishes on whatever you decide to do. Also, since you are giving this relationship a lot of thought before you marry, you may want to rule out the possibility of "love addiction" disorder or some type of co-dependency disorder by either party. Don't marry and get help if either party has a personality disorder.

[Zelder]

I have been married to an ESFJ for 8 years and have no regrets. Socioncs thinks the INTj and ESFj is a perfect match. In my experience its true. I was scared to death to marry my wife. I never analyzed anything so much in my life. I saw so many potential problems. It think I was wrong to worry to much about it. I don't think any marriage is going to be without sacrifice and work.

I married her because I liked being with her. I could spend all day with her and never get sick of her. Wtih ESFJ's all you have to do is avoid criticism, give them plenty of complements, hugs, kisses and sex. Just love them and happiness will be your lot in life.

[PortInStorm]

^^ I'm not denying your happiness at all, but...

I find that it's not too hard for me to make them happy, but much harder for them to make me happy. I'm pretty picky though, 'tis true.

[Zelder]

^^ I'm not denying your happiness at all, but...

I find that it's not too hard for me to make them happy, but much harder for them to make me happy. I'm pretty picky though, 'tis true.


Yeah, well if you are an INFj then I'm not surprised. An ESFj would probably not make you happy.

[PortInStorm]

Many, many threads here have documented INTJs' unhappiness with ESFJs (while there are some reporting happiness).

[Zelder]

I'm not surprised. Like others, I think there is more to a relationship than MBTI or socionics.

[Nikonman]

I'm happy with an ESFJ, but she is pretty evolved and we both have a lot of experience from past relationships that help us keep a good perspective. I think if we'd met 20 years ago, it would have never worked, I'd have been way too critical for one thing and I doubt she'd have been nearly as understanding of my dislike of being as social as she is. It is also likely that I'd have not been nearly expressive enough (as discussed in the "I love you" thread) and she'd have talked too darn much. I know I've evolved a great deal after many years of being in relationships, and it appears the same is true for her. I am mature enough now to see how our differences benefit me. She definitely helps me with business networking, all of my peers give her glowing reviews as being a "delightful" person. I usually dread business dinners and parties, but I feel good about them when I know she will be with me. Rest assured that nobody has ever found me delightful at such events; my disdain for them is usually just below the surface.

Curiously to me, the one INTJ friend I was fond of for years always told me that we are so alike that we'd kill each other if we were a couple. I don't know if that would be the case, and we have never been available at the same time, so there was never any real attempt to be more than friends, but I've always remembered what she said about us being "too much alike." I've always found INTJ women to be extremely attractive, but I've never had a serious relationship with one.

[PortInStorm]

*nod* I agree with both of you- MBTI gives markers along the path, but the two individuals and their resulting unique alchemy ultimately decide the 'way forward' :p

This is not news though, I understand...

[Bahama Mama]

CONGRATULATIONS! :] esfj is the best choice for an intj (according to socionics (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). its a little hard to read, but i think youll get it. you are the analyst. <3 im so happy for you..things might get hard--really hard, but you guys will naturally be able to make it work (if you guys also stay away from dirty fighting techniques). :D

enjoy and feel lucky. u are with your dual which means you are both most psychologically compatible :]

[Storm]

CONGRATULATIONS! :] esfj is the best choice for an intj (according to socionics (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). its a little hard to read, but i think youll get it. you are the analyst. <3 im so happy for you..things might get hard--really hard, but you guys will naturally be able to make it work (if you guys also stay away from dirty fighting techniques). :D

enjoy and feel lucky. u are with your dual which means you are both most psychologically compatible :]

Socionics is not the same thing as MBTI, despite having similar letters.

ENFP is the match for INTJ under MBTI. Individual results may vary.

[CJay]

I married her because I liked being with her. I could spend all day with her and never get sick of her. Wtih ESFJ's all you have to do is avoid criticism, give them plenty of complements, hugs, kisses and sex. Just love them and happiness will be your lot in life.

He speaks the truth here..... I am ESFJ and been married to an INTJ for 12 years and sadly..... he criticized everything, complimented nothing, rarely hugged me, rarely kissed me and well.... he would give me lots of sex but he made me not want sex with him with the way he treated me. I am very unhappy with him right now and trying to work on some issues as a result. I always put him first, I put my life on hold for him, I worshiped the ground he walked on and he treated me like crap. Now he is trying to make up for what he did and I am very cold to him I don't forgive this much hurt easily. It took 12 years for him to finally wear me down to this point though. So if you avoid those mistakes that he made then you will be a lot better off.

[JustMel]

I'm happy with an ESFJ, but she is pretty evolved and we both have a lot of experience from past relationships that help us keep a good perspective. I think if we'd met 20 years ago, it would have never worked, I'd have been way too critical for one thing and I doubt she'd have been nearly as understanding of my dislike of being as social as she is. It is also likely that I'd have not been nearly expressive enough (as discussed in the "I love you" thread) and she'd have talked too darn much. I know I've evolved a great deal after many years of being in relationships, and it appears the same is true for her. I am mature enough now to see how our differences benefit me. She definitely helps me with business networking, all of my peers give her glowing reviews as being a "delightful" person. I usually dread business dinners and parties, but I feel good about them when I know she will be with me. Rest assured that nobody has ever found me delightful at such events; my disdain for them is usually just below the surface.

Exactly. If my husband and I had been together years ago we'd have likely killed one another. We have enough life and relationship experience to make it work now. Most of the time it's really good but on the rare occasions we both dig in our heels about something it's those past experiences that save us from killing one another now. He's very accepting of my dislike of people in general and social functions in particular. I go but he knows I won't like it but will behave for the most part.

[Zelder]

Socionics is not the same thing as MBTI, despite having similar letters.

ENFP is the match for INTJ under MBTI. Individual results may vary.

they are different but very similar. If you are ESFJ in MBTI then you are still ESFj in socioics. If you are INTJ in MBTI then there is a good chance you are still INTj in scoionics.

I figure deciding which types are best for each other is a matter of opinion but I think the socionics people have thought it through more than anybody else. I side with socionics. Making any marriag work requires effort. In my opinion, if the INTj makes the effort with the ESFj the reward is excellent. I can't imagine any other type being better for the INTj as long as the INTj is willing to put in the necessary effort. Love takes EFFORT, its hard but rewarding.

[Storm]

ENFP with INTJ wasn't my personal opinion, that's the opinion under MBTI.

I think that "best" matche are a bit of bullshit because everyone is so different.

[Zelder]

ENFP with INTJ wasn't my personal opinion, that's the opinion under MBTI.

I think that "best" matche are a bit of bullshit because everyone is so different.

Yeah I know its MBTIs opinion of the best match, and I agree everyone is differnt. I really like ENFPs i can see how it is considered a good choice.

[Nikonman]

Now he is trying to make up for what he did and I am very cold to him I don't forgive this much hurt easily.

I think you really should either divorce him or start working with him. He is making an effort now, he won't keep that up forever, and you should either reciprocate his efforts or breakup. I know vastly different approaches and a lot of miscommunications caused very hurt feelings for my ex in the first decade we were married, the majority of which was my fault. I eventually figured it out and made considerable efforts to make things right with her. Your post reminds me of her attitude in the second half of our marriage. It came across to me as an unwillingness to work with me. And yet she did not want a divorce, she acted like she just wanted to punish me perpetually. A person will put up with that for only so long. I'm sure in her mind, I did not deserve anything better from her, while I certainly believed that I did deserve better and that we both had contributed to the demise of the relationship.

I'm certainly not saying he deserves to have your love or to expect anything from you. He may not, your love for him may be destroyed and he may well bear the blame for it. If so, then move on. If you want to stay married, then you need to work with him and he has to work with you. Otherwise, you are really just wasting time.

[Joe Kool]

He speaks the truth here..... I am ESFJ and been married to an INTJ for 12 years and sadly..... he criticized everything, complimented nothing, rarely hugged me, rarely kissed me and well.... he would give me lots of sex but he made me not want sex with him with the way he treated me. I am very unhappy with him right now and trying to work on some issues as a result. I always put him first, I put my life on hold for him, I worshiped the ground he walked on and he treated me like crap. Now he is trying to make up for what he did and I am very cold to him I don't forgive this much hurt easily. It took 12 years for him to finally wear me down to this point though. So if you avoid those mistakes that he made then you will be a lot better off.
Okay, one problem I have with MBTI or socionics is our willingness to apply broad sweeping profiles to a diverse group of personality types. For example, consider INTJ's. Even if there was a stadium packed full of INTJ's. The vast diversity between them would be overwhelming because we would have different education levels, different family backgrounds, different cultural/ethnic backgrounds, different religious backgrounds, different intelligence levels, different experience & maturity levels, different income levels, and the list goes on.

Perhaps MBTI and Socionics could merely be another two dimensions of compatibility to add to the 29 dimensions of compatibility listed in a book written by the founder of eharmony.com?

Here is a book on the 29 dimensions of compatibility.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Perhaps educating ourselves on compatibility issues would give us an awareness of incompatible areas and then we can work on conflict resolution in the troublesome areas? Even with the best-matched compatible couple, there is still going to be conflict. So a book on conflict resolution, negotiating and compromising may be a big help. I would think that once you've done your best to choose a partner, you work your best on keeping them as your spouse.

CJay actually speaks my "LOVE LANGUAGE" Please google the book "The Five Love Languages" I am an INTJ that carefully avoids communicating criticism and it stays internal but I do find positive, constructive methods to resolve and deal with my critique. I give complements, I love hugs, I love kisses, I love touching and I can't resist great sex. So as far as being an emotionally detached INTJ ... I'm far from that. INTJ's are a diverse group within themselves.

CJay, I agree with Nikonman. Your unresolved bitterness or unforgiveness will eventually act like the last nail that seals the coffin which contains your marital relationship. If your marital relationship has already died, then end the marriage. If not, work on your emotions and on resolving the root cause for your emotions. You may need a third party for this like a qualified professional and/or a higher power (God).

[lhtown]

Happily married for 10+ years to an ESFJ gal. Four kids, lots of hard times, still in love.

I never wanted to marry anyone like me. I figured I already had one of those(INTJ) and having another around would be redundant and boring.

In spite of our opposite personalities, we share virtually everything else, and having opposite ways of approaching things, enriches our lives.

A lot of acceptance and understanding is required on both sides.

[Eastern]

He speaks the truth here..... I am ESFJ and been married to an INTJ for 12 years and sadly..... he criticized everything, complimented nothing, rarely hugged me, rarely kissed me and well.... he would give me lots of sex but he made me not want sex with him with the way he treated me. I am very unhappy with him right now and trying to work on some issues as a result. I always put him first, I put my life on hold for him, I worshiped the ground he walked on and he treated me like crap. Now he is trying to make up for what he did and I am very cold to him I don't forgive this much hurt easily. It took 12 years for him to finally wear me down to this point though. So if you avoid those mistakes that he made then you will be a lot better off.

I'm very sorry, I signed up here at the forums to praise your first post (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

just to read your above quote, you just proofed the point that you forgot so quickly, and when you had some conflict with you husband, he turned out to be real bastard

rarely hugged? rarely kissed?

well

he still does but he would give me more back rubs back then... and he would not complain if I wanted to listen to KennyG or Enya. Well.... his excuse is, "I was 19 and I wanted in your pants!" Back rubs, foot rubs, paint my toe nails, buy me jewelry for no reason, take me to lunch, dinner, movies, the beach...

good luck

[blueranger]

Wonderful creatures ESFJ's!

Its all in the moment for an ESFJ, they are pretty much an INTJ's opposite.
Relative to the significance of the other functions the common J is insignicant.

The world of an ESFJ revolves around being liked and caring for and about people, they have an inordinate amount of energy is this regard: the perfect nurse.

Avoid finite terms with them using 'like' is much more effective, especially 'feels like'.

ESFJ deteste conflict and will suffer imeasurably themselves to conserve harmony in others around them. There tendency to do what makes people happy is frequently at odds with the INTJ choice of whats logically correct.

There is no point applying your logical approach to an ESFJ it just overpowers them and they just become more emotional and irrational as they can not compete with you and they just feel stupid. Instead lead them to your way of thinking by asking questions in such a gentle sequence that they arrive at the right decision you approve of without realising it. Logical thinking is as weak in an ESFJ as feeling is in an INTJ.
This does two things, ESFJ tend to mimic others to be liked, by gently teaching them logical thought they become more rational, getting them to talk directly about their feelings and confusion helps you to understand them and you develop your sense and feelign functions making you more well rounded and you generally find people are easier to deal with.

If you dont understand why an ESFJ does something, ask them. They tend to have an inmense amount of time and energy for helping people.

I would classify the ESFJ as the 'typical women' as such try reading why men dont have a clue and women always need more shoes by barbara pease and her husband. Very helpful!

Whilst they are our opposite, we can learn so much from them they can make us better people.

THE ABSOLUTE most important thing that will help your relationship with an ESFJ is to say whats on your mind even if its random and fragmented. If you dont tell them they will make up their own mind and its often wrong!! VERY WRONG! this often leads to the INTJ think "WHAT THE F**K, where did you get that from" which just confuses the hell out of us.

Talking about your thoughts will help you process your thoughts better and make you a more fluent communicator. ESFJ's are all about being in touch with people so throw them a bone.

I could write pages on this stuff being with an ESFJ for 9.5yrs, depite all the hassle and grief I wound change my wife for the world she still continues to amaze me.


My wife loves Mini Coopers in blue, so I hired one for her Birthday and booked a nice hotel as a suprise and, unfortantely it fell through last minute. I'd had this planned for months, so I was stuck with getting her something rather lame and boring instead.

When I told her about what I'd planned for her she was as happy as if I'd actually done it and cried becuase she thought it was so lovely and thoughtful even thoguht it went pear shaped. That's ESFJs for you.

[Causa Mortis]

I have ESFJ spouse and PortInStorm has provided some sage advice. A few additional things I would add:

* Be careful of anything you say relating to your SO's actions, they interpret almost everything as a personal attack and get defensive. This can make bringing up issues problematic, you need to develop the art of the velvet mallet.

* Let them know what you're thinking as much as possible. ESFJs love stability and hate surprises (stupid gifts notwithstanding). If you've got a plan in your head try to let your SO know, not necessarily for input, they'll just be happy that you're sharing your thoughts.

Yup, great post.

* Let them gab and just take it in. This is a bit anti-INTJ because our impulse is to offer input to help make the situation better, but that's not what they're looking for. However, when you see your SO struggling with some task that is a golden opportunity to let your INTJ juices flow and help them. They generally are reasonable and will happily implement a new and better way of doing things.

I think this is where me and my ex ESFJ fell apart. She would just want to flap lips for two hours per day about absolutely NOTHING...and I get bored with it in about 30 minutes.

My ESFJ was also very, very pretentious, so I kept her away from my guy friends, who ranged in intelligence and class from low to high. I don't know if this is ESFJ or whether this was just her, but it was an issue.

[Monte314]

I think (with little upon which to base my musings) that if you can work out the big compromises in two areas, you'll probably be OK:

1.) How are we going to manage our social life as a couple in a way that is satisfying and enjoyable for both of us? (BTW: "She goes to parties and you stay home" is not the right answer)

2.) How are we going to make joint decisions so that we are both satisfied with the process? (BTW: "She/He always gives in and He/She gets her way" is not the right answer)

[ms jennifer]

My husband is an ESFJ, and I have to agree with a lot of these points posted from everyone thus far.

This very much rang true to me:

ESFJ deteste conflict and will suffer immeasurably themselves to conserve harmony in others around them. There tendency to do what makes people happy is frequently at odds with the INTJ choice of whats logically correct.


Keeping the peace is something that he will strive to do to the point of making himself physically ill; he'll sacrifice sacrifice sacrifice to the point of complete frustration and disdain on my end because he'll change who he is entirely, adapting to sensitivities and conflict. This is the extreme, but you need to make sure that you don't criticize their efforts. Figure out your crap on your own (which we prefer to do anyway), and try to recognize their efforts to help you. Encourage their positivity because once you aren't happy, they aren't happy. It's easy for me to go from totally grumpy and pissed off, have some sort of awakening moment and suddenly be 100% chill and ready to go have fun in 2 seconds. Then I look at him and think, "okkkkkay...I'm happy. Cheer the fuck up." It does not, however, work that way with an ESFJ.

You are not doomed to be forever with an overly emotional partner.

He doesn't complain or go on ridiculous emotional tirades as some other people have pointed out. He usually keeps it pretty short and simple and recognizes how to talk to me. Often times he doesn't talk about his emotions because in his mind it only causes conflict when I dispute his reasons for feeling that way....whoops. My bad. Primarily I can tell I've upset him only through his body language. Often times I'll bring it up and say, "did it upset you when I said _(insert logical observance about something here)___? I'm sorry. I didn't mean it like that. (((provide explanation of thought process)))" He probably doesn't even listen to that portion but feels glad I recognize that I upset him. He's quite accommodating, and although I have said a few (INTJ cold but logical) things with regards to my opinion about a topic, he understands my perspective and doesn't internalize more than the split second. He generally tries to hide that from me because he understands my opinion about getting upset about things that are IMHO retarded.

An INTJ / ESFJ relationship is totally doable and very enjoyable. I sent him loads of information on how to deal with me (personality type), but he already had figured out a lot of my quirks. I did this not because I am unwilling to work on myself, but because I can be a bit insensitive by accident. This helps him understand why I'm not reacting the way he would anticipate.

One thing I'd like to add is a lot of the things, by nature of the question, will have to focus on the negative aspects of an ESFJ / INTJ relationship. It seems like several options above neglect to mention the ability of an ESFJ to understand the other person's perspective. They are capable of understanding HOW we think and not getting upset by this. You can be yourself - they are fully capable of learning why we say what we say and why we tune out after X amount of time. They can do such without feeling personally attacked, upset or resentful.

And they'll do all sorts of sweet things for you. You just need to remember to go out of your way to show them you love them once and a while.

INTJs will work and improve a relationship. ESFJs have their own way of doing that as well, and are beyond patient if you are able to give in other ways.

As the person above said, they are very amazing creatures. Their ability with people is fascinating, and they have a different way of viewing the world that perplexes me (in a good way). It's fun and informative to open your eyes to this new alien perspective.

[JTG]

Its all in the moment for an ESFJ, they are pretty much an INTJ's opposite.

My best friend is ESFJ, and i think this is pretty accurate. Functions for INTJ go like this:

Ni - Introverted iNtuition produces a desire for deep understanding of whatever takes our interest
Te - Extraverted Thinking makes our behavior rational and decisive. In a position that's auxillary to Ni, we use our understanding to solve problems and stuff.
Fi - Introverted Feeling gives us conscience, but the tertiary position means it's not our driving force
Se - Extraverted Sensing gives us an appreciation for taking things as they are, just sensing them for the enjoyment of sensing them. Inferior position means it's our weakest function

ESFJs on the other hand...

Fe - Extraverted Feeling works like our Te, except with emotion. It's still decisive, but basically whatever they're feeling at the time is how they'll be acting.
Si - Introverted Sensing fleshes out a sense of "the way things should be" to them. In an auxillary position behind Te, it means that how they feel about something determines how they view it. If they're on your side, they will defend you tooth and nail. If they're pissed off at you, then you are their enemy until further notice.
Ne - Extraverted iNtuition gives an idea of the big picture. In the tertiary position its scope may be limited, but i think it aids in the decisiveness inherent in Fe+Si. They'll assess a situation quickly and react just as quickly.
Ti - Introverted Thinking provides their internal information storage. In the inferior position they don't rely on it heavily, but it provides their drive to categorize things.

I dunno if my description is too great, since i'm still working on fleshing out how i view certain functions, but the quoted text is right in saying that they're pretty much our opposites. ESFJs are often impulsive and outspoken, especially when they feel strongly about something. They may or may not be concerned with detail (my best friend expresses infinite annoyance at my desire to pick apart everything and understand it) but they are usually pretty quick to react to a situation, for better or worse.

[blueranger]

There is so much good advice in this thread well done everyone!

With all the material in this thread we coudl compile the an Idiots (INTJs) guide to ESFJ's LOL.

I would also add that things are far more placid now.

My other half actually second guesses herself now before doing something spontanious and often talks herself out of things, and will often say am I doing the right thing by (and thats INTJ right) to which I usually reply yes!

And thanks to her sensitvity, I talk much more softly now and tend not to use finite terms like is, did, are. It would appear to me that, from what I can gather, I would suggest that, I think that, make for much more constructive discussion. I mean the same thing.

We also made an agreement that we would not shout at each other and we we did the other would say please don't shout at me.


The only thing that repeatedly comes up is that she accusses me of snapping at her, and I just think she's being overly sensitive and will often say "I feel like your being oversensitive" she will usually get a bit upset for a while then say your probably right, I'm having a hard time at work at the moment, this usually coincides with me having something on my mind, so I suually respond I thought I was speaking normally, I'm a bit preoccupied atm, so if I am snapping at you i'm sorry too.

Social events are also a continuing problem, you need to develop a coping strategy, mine is a book and an IPOD and drawing pad all family know I like my space and find the loud family environment over whelming so they just leave me to it now.

But it is another obstacle to overcome

[themuzicman]

My ESFJ needs regular "girl's night out" to go be social with her friends. Insist that she go. Tell her to call her friends and make it happen if they aren't doing it now. It is wonderful for her mental health (and, by extension, yours), and if you're kicking her out of the house to do it once a week, she'll appreciate your support, as well.

[s4nder]

A funny observation: I like how the T types here are carefully analyzing the situation and then F types fly in kicking and screaming, telling everyone to forget about personality types because love conquers all and it's the people that matter and how can you be doing this... thereby only confirming they fall right into their personality type, hehe.

[themuzicman]

A 'T' can't deal with an 'F' without thinking about what's going on from their perspective. Not sure that 'F's can relate to what's going on with 'T's.

[PortInStorm]

^^ Sure they can. Come on, now. It's funny, 'cause you were talking about taking an "F"s perspective (and the superiority of Ts over Fs in that department), but if you did see it through our eyes, you'd know how good we are at taking others' perspectives....

Sorry, was that just me "flying in, kicking and screaming... that love conquers all"? Oops, gotta stop that.

[Eastern]

THE ABSOLUTE most important thing that will help your relationship with an ESFJ is to say whats on your mind even if its random and fragmented. If you dont tell them they will make up their own mind and its often wrong!! VERY WRONG! this often leads to the INTJ think "WHAT THE F**K, where did you get that from" which just confuses the hell out of us.

lol, I just used it today man with a little modification

but thank you, your post apparently encourages me to take a step forward, and may change my life forever :laugh:

My ESFJ was also very, very pretentious, so I kept her away from my guy friends, who ranged in intelligence and class from low to high. I don't know if this is ESFJ or whether this was just her, but it was an issue.

always read that ESFJs tend to be manipulative, especially guilt manipulation
I'm still not sure if this is your case, and in most cases, I couldn't figure if it was manipulation or that's what they really act

I just say what I want clearly (dunno if it's ISTJ thing)so I fail to understand this point

[lchristma]

how do you know what my experience levels are? you are making assumptions because what I say threatens your viewpoint. Nt's are very different than SJ's. the values fueling both are very different.

Why would it be impossible to make estimates of compatibility between types from this information?

I also never said it would certainly fail. I said it would require more work for a result that is less than optimal so if you're questioning it, ditch it. it's probably for the wrong reasons.

I am not just talking out of my ass on this topic. I've read hundreds of emails from people who have experienced this gap of understanding between people. SJ's (p's) are looking for a different experience than NT's tend to look for. It's a chasm that isn't often bridged and a good portion of the people that I have known who at first claimed to be happy, in this circumstance have ended up divorced. Just read the relationship forums. this is a repeating story. Same every time.

there could be a lot of reasons things work for you. the results of these tests are based on honesty in the test taking.

1. the test results might not be accurate for you and/or your husband or the preferences may be borderline bringing you closer together on the spectrum.
2. maybe you find joy in constant alienation. who knows. People have different desires of what they want from their relationships.

You are assuming that we were not honest in our test taking? Are you saying that it is impossible for an INTJ and ESPF to be compatible because a few people who post say it doesn't work?

Based off my reading, there is very little information on INTJ women in relationships with ESPF men. We have our differences like many couples. I don't put much into what I read in the relationship forums because only a small population is providing the information. I think being a INTJ woman married to an ESFP man has made life much more interesting. I have found we balance each other with our children.

My point I was trying to make is that personality tests cannot determine if a relationship is going to work. What I have discovered after being together 20 years is that chemistry is unpredicatable. I don't think of it as alienation to be with someone that is so different from me. We teach each other so many things because we do see life differently. When I am stressed from work, he knows that I need my space to be alone and takes me to a book store. If it wasn't for him, I probably would not go out and socialize with our friends as much. I initially dread it, but once I am there, I enjoy myself.

I work in the science field and he is a sales person. When we talk about work, it is two different worlds. We learn from each other.

I do know that our friends find our relationship to be very interesting. When people get to know me first and then meet him, they are so surprised. Yet, they can't help but like him because he is so fun. When people know him first, then meet me... they are very surprised. I believe people are more surprised when they meet me than vice versa.

[Ilara]

@ OP:

I would say that the type is irrelevant (as many have pointed out, two people who are willing to make the effort can build a solid, lasting, and happy relationship--regardless of type).

That said, I noticed some relationship red flags that have nothing to do with type but that I think that you need to seriously consider:

Firstly, your statement that you and she can't reconcile the 'planning a partnership' part of the idea of a marriage; her saying that it's about the love, and you trying to get to the nitty-gritty. This is a serious problem. Marriage isn't just love, it's a partnership. You need both. This isn't to say that you can't establish a partnership with her, but it sounds like in order to do that you'll need some kind of intervention. Might I recommend marriage counselling?

The fact that you expressed that you were thinking of staying with her because she had invested so much in you and because you were afraid of being single again and looking around? Very. Big. Red. Flag. A marriage built on pity and laziness will not end well. You need to think this through carefully: do you really want to marry this woman, or are you just falling back on her because it's convenient and easier than being single? If it's the latter, you're doing both of you a terrible disservice.

You mentioned that you would like to change her to a more N-type personality, and that if you could, things would be better. Honestly, she's not going to change, nor should you embark on a marriage assuming that you can fundamentally change her. It won't work, and it will make both of you very unhappy; she'll feel unloved, and you'll feel dissatisfied. Compromise is important. That means both of you adjusting, not her becoming a different person.

Finally, the family thing. Marriages aren't just about the two people getting married. Fundamentally, you'll become a part of her family, and she will become a part of yours. If you can't hack that, there's a serious problem. It's possible to get along (don't we all have relatives that we don't really like all that much but can still manage to be civil with?), but if you find it to be that much of a deal-breaker, then you need to think that through carefully.

It's possible to make an INTJ-ESFJ relationship work. The question you need to ask yourself isn't whether or not an INTJ-ESFJ relationship can work, but rather whether you and this woman can make the relationship that you have together work.

All the best.

[chrislarrabee]

For what it's worth, I love my ESFJ wife of 20 years. Are we very different in a lot of ways? You bet.
However, we share core values in child raising and we respect each others differences.
Just my $.02

[Distance]

The ESFJ women that I know (obviously I can't speak for all of them) feel very strongly about the way children are raised, and think their opinions and views on child-raising are the only right ones and will severely criticize and try to manipulate anyone who is not following their way. My guess would be that her family would "influence" her into raising your children the way that they think is right. If your views differed from theirs, you would not only be attacked yourself, but it would cause severe stress on the relationship between you and your wife. Since women are often (don't know if this is your plan or not) the primary influence and care-giver of children, your influence will have to be subtle, and you may end up for the sake of your marriage needing to allow her family to essentially raise your kids.From a platonic perspective, this encapsulates my experiences with ESFJ women. It's not only child-rearing but how they handle their lives. Any criticisms on their most often traditional values and they take it as personal criticism, hence go on the major rip and tear on vulnerabilities. I've yet to see anything being considered too low for ESFJ women to stoop to, on a personal attack level. And yes, they are extremely manipulative. My way or the highway but not in any rational manner.

Take my input with a grain of salt since I've had nothing but horrible experiences with ESFJ acquaintances.