Help: ENTP dating an INTJ and--

[singularapathy]

--I'm hoping that you might be able to provide a bit of elucidation and help (if only because I'm hoping some of you have experienced this, or something similar before). My girlfriend is an INTJ (weak J, but pretty strong everywhere else) and has been going through depression. That's not actually the issue, as she seems to be working through that well enough. My concern is a bit deeper-rooted in her self-described inability to feel.

The depression has knocked down her libido pretty badly (though I do know she's attracted to me, and we've had sex recently, it hasn't been the same), the fact that she doesn't 'feel' (or doesn't know what she feels) bothers me. I want the person I'm with to love me, or to at least come to something close to that. We've been together for almost eight months, and I know she cares based on the things she does, but she's admitted that it's more an intellectualized "I know things are going well, therefore I must care" sort of situation than an actual FEELING.

Have you ever dealt with this, or been with someone who dealt with this? How can I help her become able to recognize her feelings? She's reticent to do so, as she thinks feeling too much would make her seem/feel/be out of control, and (from what I gather) most INTJs sure like their control.

She's working on being more zen and accepting that there's a lot she can't change; we even agreed to doing a spontaneous adventure that I'm planning out without her knowing anything about it next weekend. So we're trying, and working on it-- but it's tough. She values her work much greater than she values me; as a person, though I value ideas, I value her pretty significantly. We're both NTs, so we have similarities there in how we deal with emotions and and all that jazz, but it seems like it's directionally different. Tips, advice? I basically don't want to find out, a year down the road, I'm with someone who likes me and digs having sex with me but doesn't love me/feel connected to me.

[Synamon]

INTJs do have feelings, but they are deep down and we don't express them well. We do tend to connect on a more intellectual level than a feeling one, so it is possible you two have a stronger connection that you realize.

Putting pressure on her won't help though. I'm sure you've told her what you need from her emotionally, she needs to figure out a way of giving that to you in her own way. It could just be a communication issue, you may not be recognizing the way she expresses her feelings. Is she getting therapy for the depression? Perhaps a therapist could help her with expressing her emotions better as well.

[Airius]

The "inability to feel" sounds like depression to me. Depression doesn't always manifest itself as sadness, it's just as common for people who suffer from it to feel numb.

[singularapathy]

INTJs do have feelings, but they are deep down and we don't express them well. We do tend to connect on a more intellectual level than a feeling one, so it is possible you two have a stronger connection that you realize.
Well, I'm using her words. She (and subsequently her psychologist) says that she doesn't really understand feelings, or know how to handle them. She thinks, simply, that she SHOULD feel a way, and that's the end of it. And she overanalyzes the situation to a fault, too. What I mean is that she feels like we work (I complement her, care about her, stick by her side throughout anything, do interesting and intellectual things with her, show her affection in verbal and nonverbal ways), but she says she doesn't FEEL affection. Furthermore, she overanalyzes what she thinks she should be feeling (libidinally as well as emotionally, moreso the latter than the former).

Putting pressure on her won't help though. I'm sure you've told her what you need from her emotionally, she needs to figure out a way of giving that to you in her own way. It could just be a communication issue, you may not be recognizing the way she expresses her feelings. Is she getting therapy for the depression? Perhaps a therapist could help her with expressing her emotions better as well.
Oh, that's actually part of it. I mean, we're both highly intellectual (ENTP and all) and so we talked about our MBTI before, and we've both been doing our own research on depression and zen. We're able to tackle the problems; she feels like she's weighing me down and once told me that the most comforting thing I ever told her is that if I felt like it weren't going to work out, that I'd leave. I'd like an explanation of that, too.

Anyhow, yes, she's seeing a cognitive therapist (bad situation in the past with drugs) and the depression is easing through zen-like behaviors. I bought her some yoga classes for her birthday, actually, which is an activity she enjoyed doing together and appears to help (from what I gather, it's things like THAT that matter more to INTJs than the verbal and physical affection; for me, it's the opposite. I'd rather have a passionate kiss/hold and a whispered 'I love you').

When we were talking about this recently, though it bothers the ever-living crap out of me and I consider it all the time (since I introvert my thinking and self-reflect a lot), I expressed that she shouldn't overthink it herself. I mean, I'm trying to do the same (not overDISCUSS it, at the least) because I recognize that just throwing it in her face again and again is likely to elicit a negative response.

I was just wondering, I guess, how other INTJs both 'felt' and 'expressed' love. I wish I could get her to feel and verbalize, if only a little. She has said the phrase twice, and those moments are the happiest. I'm glad she doesn't overdo it (I say it maybe once a week or two, or so; so I still feel like I'm on the low side in comparison to most ENxPs), and I know she means it when she says it. I care about this girl a lot, and I want it to work. I'm worried I'm ancillary to her life when I'm making her a priority in mine.

I've routinely told her I'd follow her if she moved, and though she appreciates that gesture, has always responded with, "you know I wouldn't do the same for you." It makes me think she's not into it as much as I am, though she also has told me (and other friends of hers have told me) that this is the most successful relationship she's been in. Heh.





singularapathy added to this post, 2 minutes and 49 seconds later...

The "inability to feel" sounds like depression to me. Depression doesn't always manifest itself as sadness, it's just as common for people who suffer from it to feel numb.

Well, yes, that may be true and it may be complicating things, but she's told me beforehand that it's been a persistent problem (outside of her bouts of depression).

[Synamon]

You've described your situation very well, seems to me that you understand the problem. The depression she struggles with combined with the INTJ natural tendency to suppress the feeling side of our nature may not be something you can break through. It doesn't sound like she is meeting your needs emotionally at all.

I was just wondering, I guess, how other INTJs both 'felt' and 'expressed' love. I wish I could get her to feel and verbalize, if only a little. She has said the phrase twice, and those moments are the happiest. I'm glad she doesn't overdo it (I say it maybe once a week or two, or so; so I still feel like I'm on the low side in comparison to most ENxPs), and I know she means it when she says it. I care about this girl a lot, and I want it to work. I'm worried I'm ancillary to her life when I'm making her a priority in mine.
My husband is an F so in the early days I struggled to express emotions at the level he needed and wanted. It was frustrating for him, it took a while for him to understand that teasing him was showing affection, or that showing interest in something he was passionate about was my way of showing how much I cared. Public displays of affection were uncomfortable for me, as was saying I loved him. I did recognize that he wanted those and I made the effort to adapt to his language of affection as much as he did to mine.

I'm not sure what else to tell you. You already seem to know that the level of emotion you've said you want in a relationship may not be possible for the woman you've described in your posts. Is it related to her being an INTJ? Probably, and the depression would make it worse.

[Vagrant]

This is a depression issue.

Get her to a psychiatrist.

No, I'm serious. I used to suffer from chronic depression not too long ago but quickly changed my ways because a friend who was very straightforward with me told me of some disturbing things I was doing, completely unintentionally. I realized that these acts were not intentional, nor were they a part of my personality -- they were resulting from my overactive coping mechanism for my chronic depression.

Now I'm on sertraline hydrochloride, which has vastly cleared my mind of all the muddiness from the depression and really helped me make a turnaround in some of my relationships I was scared I could've irrevocably damage.



To me, the libido thing is a sign of depression -- While we are INTJ's, we are still human. A decreased sex drive is probably something other than our INTJness

[singularapathy]

This is a depression issue.

Get her to a psychiatrist.

No, I'm serious. I used to suffer from chronic depression not too long ago but quickly changed my ways because a friend who was very straightforward with me told me of some disturbing things I was doing, completely unintentionally. I realized that these acts were not intentional, nor were they a part of my personality -- they were resulting from my overactive coping mechanism for my chronic depression.

Now I'm on sertraline hydrochloride, which has vastly cleared my mind of all the muddiness from the depression and really helped me make a turnaround in some of my relationships I was scared I could've irrevocably damage.



To me, the libido thing is a sign of depression -- While we are INTJ's, we are still human. A decreased sex drive is probably something other than our INTJness

Like I said, she's seeing a cognitive therapist. A psychologist. She refuses to do medication, because in the past it really messed her up.

[une fille]

We're able to tackle the problems; she feels like she's weighing me down and once told me that the most comforting thing I ever told her is that if I felt like it weren't going to work out, that I'd leave. I'd like an explanation of that, too.

Yeah, she loves you.
Depression rubs off on people.. If you love someone, you don't want them to feel as bad as you do, especially because of you. She would rather you leave her and be alright than for you to stay and be unhappy.
It sounds to me as though your girlfriend is in a very bad place right now. You start to emotionally numb over when things become rather bleak. Sure, you can look into a psychiatrist, but they'll just prescribe antidepressants.. And if she's not chemically imbalanced now, she will be after a round or two of Prozac. Cognitive therapy may help her, but in terms of what you can do.. Actively working with her and getting those classes were both great moves for a few different reasons. One, the stuff she will be learning may actually help her. Two, it shows her analytical self that you're putting real, concrete effort into the relationship, even though she's not at her best right now. It's very difficult for us INTJ females to be seen during a weak point of life.. You helping her to get back up most likely means quite a bit to her, even if she's too emotionally detached/exhausted to show it well right now. If you truly do care about her and you want to be with her, then don't think about what may happen years from now.. Keep doing what you're doing, and be understanding. I'm sure it's difficult, but what she may need more than anything right now is someone to be there for her unconditionally.

[Pandemonium]

Get rid of her.

[Zilal]

You could stick it out for a while... it's quite possible that either the depression or her youth (if she's relatively young) could mean her feelings are either inhibited or not-well-developed yet, or that they'll take longer to materialize in a relationship than they would for most people. Of course, she might also just not be that into you but not even be able to tell. I'd just try to be gentle with her, but don't neglect your own feelings. You do deserve to have someone who's crazy about you. I think there's a potential for change but if it doesn't get much better in the next half a year I think it'd be safe to assume she's just not that into you.

[Vagrant]

Like I said, she's seeing a cognitive therapist. A psychologist. She refuses to do medication, because in the past it really messed her up.

That's why you change the medication.

However, I only recommend medication if she's a chronic depressive. I know I'm a chronic depressive, not triggered by events. If she is, though, I would strongly recommend medication.

[Snowdragon]

The "inability to feel" sounds like depression to me. Depression doesn't always manifest itself as sadness, it's just as common for people who suffer from it to feel numb.

You hit the nail right on the head.

[singularapathy]

We're able to tackle the problems; she feels like she's weighing me down and once told me that the most comforting thing I ever told her is that if I felt like it weren't going to work out, that I'd leave. I'd like an explanation of that, too.

Yeah, she loves you.
Depression rubs off on people.. If you love someone, you don't want them to feel as bad as you do, especially because of you. She would rather you leave her and be alright than for you to stay and be unhappy.
It sounds to me as though your girlfriend is in a very bad place right now. You start to emotionally numb over when things become rather bleak. Sure, you can look into a psychiatrist, but they'll just prescribe antidepressants.. And if she's not chemically imbalanced now, she will be after a round or two of Prozac. Cognitive therapy may help her, but in terms of what you can do.. Actively working with her and getting those classes were both great moves for a few different reasons. One, the stuff she will be learning may actually help her. Two, it shows her analytical self that you're putting real, concrete effort into the relationship, even though she's not at her best right now. It's very difficult for us INTJ females to be seen during a weak point of life.. You helping her to get back up most likely means quite a bit to her, even if she's too emotionally detached/exhausted to show it well right now. If you truly do care about her and you want to be with her, then don't think about what may happen years from now.. Keep doing what you're doing, and be understanding. I'm sure it's difficult, but what she may need more than anything right now is someone to be there for her unconditionally.

This is, by far, the most useful thing anyone has said (though part of that may be in simple validation)-- thank you.

You could stick it out for a while... it's quite possible that either the depression or her youth (if she's relatively young) could mean her feelings are either inhibited or not-well-developed yet, or that they'll take longer to materialize in a relationship than they would for most people. Of course, she might also just not be that into you but not even be able to tell. I'd just try to be gentle with her, but don't neglect your own feelings. You do deserve to have someone who's crazy about you. I think there's a potential for change but if it doesn't get much better in the next half a year I think it'd be safe to assume she's just not that into you.

Well, I think she's at least into me-- she's physically attracted (this being despite her low libido) and doesn't have the 'flight' response that she apparently normally gets after the first three to six months of a relationship that isn't where she wants to be. She is young-ish (26), but I feel like her emotions are underdeveloped partially because she intellectualizes things to much (and analyzes what she should feel to the point of not feeling, if that makes sense) and partially because of a 'control' factor. As most INTJs don't being out of control, neither does she, but she takes it to a more extreme level. She's working on it-- but we'll see.

It's just odd to me, I think, because things she does/says seem so conflicting. She'll nuzzle up to me after cooking a great dinner and doing an art project that she concocted together, but then she'll tell me that she'd never want me to follow her if she decided to move (which bothers me on two levels: one, why would she NOT want me to follow her? Maybe it's just that she's more utilitarian and doesn't want me giving anything up for her. I've tried to make her understand that it's an opportunity cost either way, and the cost of giving her up is far too great in comparison. Two, is she basically saying if she moved, nothing about the relationship would give her pause into NOT wanting to do that?). Ah well.

That's why you change the medication.

However, I only recommend medication if she's a chronic depressive. I know I'm a chronic depressive, not triggered by events. If she is, though, I would strongly recommend medication.
She's tried pretty much every form of medication that was out, with the possible exception of Wellbutrin (she may have been on that one, too; I know she mentioned a list to me at one point in the past). It just affected her negatively, to the point of causing suicidal thoughts.