Truth and Honesty In Relationships

[rara avis]

Just how much honesty and frankness do you want in your romantic relationships? I'm not talking about, "Where were you last night?" "Are you already married?" or, "Are you cheating on me?"

I mean on a normal, healthy, day to day level - facts that could potentially either boost or damage your confidence, or hurt your feelings- (that's right, I said feelings) -though the truth may be of debatable importance overall. Do you have a sense that you should be immune to injury, if the truth is just the truth?

Do you want to know your partner's complete and detailed romantic and sexual history? If a possibly painful truth -objective or subjective- happens to be what's on their mind, do you want to hear about it? What if it's something like the fact that a previous lover was in some way better endowed or more skilled than you, or that a particular sound you make when you laugh sometimes makes them want to kill you?

Do you have an opinion on the use of white lies, half truths, and spin/flattery in an intimate or long term relationship? To what extent do you demand blunt, free-flowing truth?



For my part, I want someone to speak honestly with me ...but I want them to say the right things. The two are too often mutually exclusive. I have had a hard time in past relationships, sorting out just what I need to ask for, here.

Your thoughts?

[ToC]

Ideally, a normal INTJ-ENFP connection without the ENFP short attention span (AKA cheating) streak.

Some ENFPs get me (or try to), which is more than I can say for other types.

[Hashim]

First 2 Respond. WOoot......DANG TOC

In Islam we have a rule that answers said question:

Lying is a sin except in the cases of: The conduct of War, making peace between 2 parties especially husband and wife if it causes reconciliation, when ones life is under threat and one other case.

Honesty and trustworthiness is of paramount importance. Any deviation from that will only cause problems in the long term.

Brutal honesty keeps one away from doing all sorts of unpleasant things. There is the affair of the person who approached the prophet and said that he could either give up drinking or adultery or lying. Which one should he refrain from?

The prophet replied lying. (of course) And asked him to report to him the next day. The man swore that he would not lie again.

The man went home and was tempted to do all the bad stuff that he usually did. But he could not bear the thought of telling the prophet that he had committed adultery or drank etc and refrained from such actions.

The next day he happily reported that he had infact given up adultery and drinking.

For Verily, truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to paradise and a true man continues to speak truth until he becomes the most truthful person. Lies lead to evil and evil leads to hell and a liar continues to lie till he is listed as a highest ranking liar before God.

[MaleVolentworld]

Just how much honesty and frankness do you want in your romantic relationships? I'm not talking about, "Where were you last night?" "Are you already married?" or, "Are you cheating on me?"

I mean on a normal, healthy, day to day level - facts that could potentially either boost or damage your confidence, or hurt your feelings- (that's right, I said feelings) -though the truth may be of debatable importance overall. Do you have a sense that you should be immune to injury, if the truth is just the truth?

Do you want to know your partner's complete and detailed romantic and sexual history? If a possibly painful truth -objective or subjective- happens to be what's on their mind, do you want to hear about it? What if it's something like the fact that a previous lover was in some way better endowed or more skilled than you, or that a particular sound you make when you laugh sometimes makes them want to kill you?

Do you have an opinion on the use of white lies, half truths, and spin in an intimate or long term relationship? To what extent do you demand blunt, free-flowing truth?



For my part, I want someone to speak honestly with me ...but I want them to say the right things. The two are too often mutually exclusive. I have had a hard time in past relationships, sorting out just what I need to ask for, here.

Your thoughts?

I think you should be honest and also respectful.

If you happen to dislike something that your lover cannot change (weird laugh), then what is the benefit in telling her? she cannot do anything about it and this will hurt her.

Why on earth would I want to know a sex history? or if her former lover had a large blubber?

[rara avis]

First 2 Respond. WOoot......DANG TOC

In Islam we have a rule that answers said question:

Lying is a sin except in the cases of: The conduct of War, making peace between 2 parties especially husband and wife if it causes reconciliation, when ones life is under threat and one other case.

Honesty and trustworthiness is of paramount importance. Any deviation from that will only cause problems in the long term.

Brutal honesty keeps one away from doing all sorts of unpleasant things.

Right, personally, I can tell you I don't want anyone simply lying to me. I have a hard time thinking up a scenario in which that's constructive, or shows any respect for me.

But do you want to hear all the truth, with no reservations, no ....diplomacy?

[MaleVolentworld]

Like if she has put on weight and you think she is fat? You don't say "Ok I'm being honest here, you're fat"

Instead, you say to her "I really need to get in shape, let's do it together" sneaky sneaky

[Hashim]

No diplomacy.

I WISH that were the case. Its only the lucky few who have such relationships with people who dont need diplomacy. Mostly though you have to soften the blow so to speak. Not everyone is as tough as INTJs.

I call it cushioning.

Personally I would have it straight. But INTJs are SOooo rare.

[rara avis]

Dude, I'm telling you - I AM an INTJ. I'm generally not too perturbed by solid facts. A stranger "insults" me? Either it's the truth and I'll own it, or they're a moron, and who cares.

But I'm not sure I can really relax my guard and extend myself to someone while remaining entirely cold-minded at the same time. Some facts are harder to accept - it does not always feel good when I have to halt to vet a rough one through my processors. It's hard not to react with more caution and guardedness.

I have felt undercut in the past, confidence-wise, by regular doses of cool honesty untempered by reassurance. I can't reconcile in my mind, though, with the idea of being coddled like a sissy, or "handled" like a feather-headed female. :p

[Muumeh]

I want the truth when I ask something. I also tell the truth if I'm asked. If no-one asks anything, I see no point to blurt out potentially offending truth. For example; If I ask does my outfit look good, I expect my husband to give his honest opinion. If I don't ask his opinion, I don't want to hear the negative opinion. Compliments are always nice. :)

In situations where I feel the need to tell my husband something negative about him (for example his outfit) I try to be discrete and say something along the lines "Honey, I don't think that outfit is appropriate to the event we're attending to" instead of just saying "Your outfit is horrible." This is the approach I'd like to my partner to have as well.

[BlackOp]

Sissy.....:p

I would kick the bum to the curb.....j/k. Is the actual truth the issue or is projecting your insecurities onto that truth? I would just communicate that it was making me upset....everyone has their pressure points.

[BostonIan]

Generally, it's how you say it, not what you say. When you're saying something that people don't want to hear, it's putting them in a vulnerable situation, so there can't be any passive-aggressiveness or contempt in it. It's just, yes, you have a booger in your nose.

If someone asks me how the food was, and I tell them it's bland or over-cooked, it gets a double-take from the politer people at the table, but the chef knows I'm right. And, it makes my compliments more meaningful when people know I'm telling the truth. With complete honesty, nothing's left unspoken, resentment doesn't fester, and you don't have to think before you speak or remember what you said.

I also think all the deal-breaking questions should be known or asked before there's a deal to be broken. If you don't ask the deal-breaking questions before you make the deal, then don't ask them after.

[Hashim]

Dude, I'm telling you - I AM an INTJ. I'm generally not too perturbed by solid facts. A stranger "insults" me? Either it's the truth and I'll own it, or they're a moron, and who cares.

But I'm not sure I can really relax my guard and extend myself to someone while remaining entirely cold-minded at the same time. Some facts are harder to accept - it does not always feel good when I have to halt to vet a rough one through my processors. It's hard not to react with more caution and guardedness.

I have felt undercut in the past, confidence-wise, by regular doses of cool honesty untempered by reassurance. I can't reconcile in my mind, though, with the idea of being coddled like a sissy, or "handled" like a feather-headed female. :p

And that only makes you human dear. *pats shoulder.

[Aaron Burr]

I want someone to tell me the bare truth. Just how they see it, without malice or 'cushioning'.

However when I tell someone a thing I know they do not want to hear, I always cushion it. I want them to understand how I see the action/past/whatever. I have found when I am too blunt, they tend to ignore what ever I say. Probably passing me off as a jerk.

[BananaKT]

It's important to be forthcoming with issues that affect the well-being of the spouse/partner/family so the issues can be dealt with responsibly. Lying about non-issues makes no sense to me and only builds distrust.

Privacy is extremely important. Interrogating the SO about their past simply because you can't bear to be out of the loop is completely unacceptable. It should be entirely up to that person when, where and how they reveal that portion of their life if ever.

[rara avis]

Sissy.....:p

I would kick the bum to the curb.....j/k. Is the actual truth the issue or is projecting your insecurities onto that truth? I would just communicate that it was making me upset....everyone has their pressure points.

I think what I'm talking about is definitely insecurity related, that's what makes certain truths more difficult for me to process.

So, does one make allowances to avoid triggering or stepping on - or to help your SO deal with- their insecurities?

[BlackOp]

I think what I'm talking about is definitely insecurity related, that's what makes certain truths more difficult for me to process.

So, does one make allowances to avoid triggering or stepping on - or to help your SO deal with- their insecurities?

Well...your SO may be oblivious to the lingering effects of his words. You being an INTJ...he might assume that the rationale aspects of your personality can absorb it. His past will always be his past....no amount of "sugarcoating" can change that.

[Sesshoumaru]

I personally prefer honesty over lying, even in cases where their feelings would be a bit hurt.

But there's no need to be an ass about things, you can tell the truth in a way that wouldn't be bad.

Sure we all want/deserve some privacy but when you're in a committed relationship shouldn't you strive to share your life in its entirety with that other person?

[BananaKT]

Sure we all want/deserve some privacy but when you're in a committed relationship shouldn't you strive to share your life in its entirety with that other person?

Sharing lives is a gift but in its entirety totally unnecessary. Frankly, I find such a concept suffocating. How do you leave room for mystery and trust if you use your relationship as a confessional? Honesty yes, a log of the persons life no.

[ChristopherL]

Just how much honesty and frankness do you want in your romantic relationships? I'm not talking about, "Where were you last night?" "Are you already married?" or, "Are you cheating on me?"

I mean on a normal, healthy, day to day level - facts that could potentially either boost or damage your confidence, or hurt your feelings- (that's right, I said feelings) -though the truth may be of debatable importance overall. Do you have a sense that you should be immune to injury, if the truth is just the truth?

Do you want to know your partner's complete and detailed romantic and sexual history? If a possibly painful truth -objective or subjective- happens to be what's on their mind, do you want to hear about it? What if it's something like the fact that a previous lover was in some way better endowed or more skilled than you, or that a particular sound you make when you laugh sometimes makes them want to kill you?

Do you have an opinion on the use of white lies, half truths, and spin/flattery in an intimate or long term relationship? To what extent do you demand blunt, free-flowing truth?



For my part, I want someone to speak honestly with me ...but I want them to say the right things. The two are too often mutually exclusive. I have had a hard time in past relationships, sorting out just what I need to ask for, here.

Your thoughts?
Truth is immensely overrated.

I think truth should be balanced on the health of the relationship and the affections of your partner.

[rara avis]

Well...your SO may be oblivious to the lingering effects of his words. You being an INTJ...he might assume that the rational aspects of your personality can absorb it. His past will always be his past....no amount of "sugarcoating" can change that.


Yes, this subject makes me doubt my rationality, too. :rolleyes::laugh:
Would someone kindly direct me to an F forum, preferably one with comfy padded walls?

[Nikita]

Just how much honesty and frankness do you want in your romantic relationships? I'm not talking about, "Where were you last night?" "Are you already married?" or, "Are you cheating on me?"

I mean on a normal, healthy, day to day level - facts that could potentially either boost or damage your confidence, or hurt your feelings- (that's right, I said feelings) -though the truth may be of debatable importance overall. Do you have a sense that you should be immune to injury, if the truth is just the truth?

I do hold truth in very high regard. That being said, there is truth for the sake of truth, and truth for the sake of cruelty. If one of your reasons for "telling the truth" is to wound the other person or to manipulate that person, then true honesty is not your purpose and thus your truth is of no value whatsoever and divulging it is not recommended. This is to be differentiated from truth that is not intended to be harmful, but has harmful consequences. I think it really goes back to motive. Are your words coming from a loving place, or a hurtful one?

Do you want to know your partner's complete and detailed romantic and sexual history? If a possibly painful truth -objective or subjective- happens to be what's on their mind, do you want to hear about it? What if it's something like the fact that a previous lover was in some way better endowed or more skilled than you, or that a particular sound you make when you laugh sometimes makes them want to kill you?

If something is on my mind and I want to say it, I'll either say it outright or hint at it like crazy while I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should say it, or how to say it. Ultimately, I always end up bringing it out into the open because I'd rather have open and honest communication than hold back and give my partner less than my full trust. In a relationship, I want to be able to trust the other person implicitly and completely, without reservation. Do I think that everyone in my life deserves this level of openness? No. But I demand it of a partner, expect to give it, and will accept no less. I will still hedge on the side of honesty with people generally, but that does not mean I will give them access to the inner workings of my mind or to the full extent of my feelings on any given matter or in any given situation.

Do you have an opinion on the use of white lies, half truths, and spin in an intimate or long term relationship? To what extent do you demand blunt, free-flowing truth?

In addition to what I wrote immediately above, I feel compelled to add that truth can be wholly spoken while employing tact. That you want to tell the truth does not remove any unspoken obligation to be at least marginally considerate of how the other person might respond. There are ways to deliver the truth that are less hurtful than others. Choosing to deliberately ignore a tactful approach, in my opinion, would indicate a lack of respect for the person to whom you are speaking. In a relationship, that would be sad, indeed, and quite indicative of your true feelings towards your partner. If you happen to have the kind of relationship where both partners want and expect blunt and brutal honesty with no consideration as to tact, that is one thing, but most people in relationships aren't built to withstand that kind of attack because it comes from a person who knows your body and mind intimately, in a way that no one else does or can. Thus, there is a two-way relationship of trust built up like a house of cards. A quiver of cruelty can shake the foundation.

[Harmony]

I'd much rather hear the truth than someone hiding truth from me. My problem is, I have had such an issue with self confidence, that when I'm told "No, you're fine" or "you aren't bothering me when you text me" or something similar I think they are just being nice and don't want to hurt my feelings. And I have a bad habit of pushing people when I think they are lying... You know giving them the usual "Really, all you have to do is tell me I'm getting on your nerves and I'll leave you alone." And then I do end up getting on their nerves and they do stop talking to me. =P

But yeah, I'd much rather have the truth, non-sugar coated. That's what I love about my best friend, he gives it to me straight. Blunt and to the point!

[BlackOp]

I think Nikita hit on some valid points...if the disclosure was done in malice or just simple carelessness. It could be viewed as token of respect...meaning he thought you were solid enough to handle it. I'm wondering if ex-lovers should just be universally kept to one's self? Thinking on it...I'm not sure what good could come from it. :shhh:

I would communicate how this is effecting you...if he continues then you have you answer.

[Nikita]

I'm wondering if ex-lovers should just be universally kept to one's self? Thinking on it...I'm nor sure what good could come from it. :shhh:

And here's where the controversial part of the new INTJf slogan comes in handy! ;)

[ChristopherL]

I'd much rather hear the truth than someone hiding truth from me.

This is almost never true with anyone.
If people constantly told us what they think of us, we'd all collectively commit suicide.


My problem is, I have had such an issue with self confidence, that when I'm told "No, you're fine" or "you aren't bothering me when you text me" or something similar I think they are just being nice and don't want to hurt my feelings. And I have a bad habit of pushing people when I think they are lying... You know giving them the usual "Really, all you have to do is tell me I'm getting on your nerves and I'll leave you alone." And then I do end up getting on their nerves and they do stop talking to me. =P

If someone took the effort to lie to you it's for a reason, they value you as you are. If they didn't like you they'd ignore you.
The truth has no value more often than not. Stop worrying about it.

But yeah, I'd much rather have the truth, non-sugar coated. That's what I love about my best friend, he gives it to me straight. Blunt and to the point!
Lying is a part of the human condition, we lie to each other constantly.
It's not that much of a big deal.

[BlackOp]

And here's where the controversial part of the new INTJf slogan comes in handy! ;)

Well, if your SO IS a virgin...then it could easily be blown out of proportion. I would imagine a higher premium is put on intimacy. I'm no saint so I can view both angles. INTJs seem to "idealize" sex...weird juxtaposition for such a pragmatic sensibility. IMO, we should all be whores......:p

[Nikita]

Well, if your SO IS a virgin...then it could easily be blown out of proportion. I would imagine a higher premium is put on intimacy. I'm no saint so I can view both angles. INTJs seem to "idealize" sex...weird juxtaposition for such a pragmatic sensibility. IMO, we should all be whores......:p

lol or we should all be virgins :devilish:


I really think that where sex is involved, it's really easy for insecurities to come into play. Virgins may be insecure about their lack of experience and skill, non-virgins (tempted to be mean with my diction, but elected to be nice, lol) may be insecure about being viewed as loose or amoral. At heart, we're all human and despite our similarities at the biological level, we differ emotionally. What makes one person feel insecure could just roll off of the back of another person. This is an important factor in deciding how best to wield truth. You need to truly understand your audience. Listen to your partner and watch their nonverbal cues. There are hints in there as to what makes him/her feel uncomfortable and what gives that person a rush of security and relief. Truth should be tempered with understanding and consideration, but its basic nature should remain ungnarled.

[BlackOp]

lol or we should all be virgins :devilish:

No thanks....I've been both. :laugh: I'll let your "n" function decide which is more fun.....

Can a "virgin" speak about truth in regards to intimacy? They very well may be projecting grandiose concepts that are impractical in the "real world". IMO..they are more prone to make 'rookie" mistakes in their first sexual relationship. Ownership and jealousy come to mind....

[ClydeB]

I want them to say the right things. The two are too often mutually exclusivethere is truth for the sake of truth, and truth for the sake of cruelty
I agree with Nikita's thoughts on a relationship. But I want more than that. I want feedback. Challenge me on what I say. And expect the same from me in return. Both for good things and bad. All too often truth is subjective to the person expressing it. I want to make sure there's no misunderstandings. Not only know what I think but why I think that. And vice versa. Not because of any lack of trust, just to make sure we are on the same page. Seen too many people, myself included, take things out of context or just simply apply a different spin because of unspoken assumptions acting a filter.

Case in point. My ex GF hated dresses. Wouldn't wear them. Would rather be nude (no complaints on that). When the subject of dresses would come up for whatever reason. She would say they made her ass and legs look fat. I always responded 'You're not fat, you would look great in a dress". We went back and forth on that for a year. One day she blew up at me on the dress subject because she was going shopping for a new job interview suit. Because I suggested a dress rather than suit pants. Turned out she had a bad mental body image about her 'below the waist line' figure. And had been taking my comments all this time as humoring her. Rather than the way I had been saying them. The reverse was true too. Things she would say I would take the wrong way and I would not challenge them. Just let it fester until it started poisoning other things.

[Harmony]

This is almost never true with anyone.
If people constantly told us what they think of us, we'd all collectively commit suicide.

I'm not really talking about what people think of me... In general I mean if someone doesn't want to hang around me, and they are merely taking pity on me, tell me, I have other friends I could be spending time with that enjoy my company.


If someone took the effort to lie to you it's for a reason, they value you as you are. If they didn't like you they'd ignore you.
The truth has no value more often than not. Stop worrying about it.

I bolded the sentence I have a problem with. I've experienced the exact opposite of that... A guy told me he was interested and he liked being around me. However, his actions were different. So when I posed the question if you aren't interested, just let me know and I'll move on, so he says no, I'm interested just been busy. He never ignored me, just blew me off. I would have rather been ignored in that case. Instead I was lead on.

[Nikita]

Can a "virgin" speak about truth in regards to intimacy? They very well may be projecting grandiose concepts that are impractical in the "real world". IMO..they are more prone to make 'rookie" mistakes in their first sexual relationship. Ownership and jealousy come to mind....

Virginity doesn't imply complete lack of experience with relationships, just having said, "No" to certain physical advances. I understand intimacy in a way that relates to my own fears of it and countless conversations with and observations of couples...even regarding moments that would normally be considered too personal for general company. (I swear I'm a professional third wheel.) I'm talking from a position of what I would and would not feel comfortable with. Two rookies can eventually gain enough experience to dominate the field. Everybody has to start somewhere. Ownership and jealousy could very well be issues that would need to be worked through, but that's true of non-virgins, too.

[BlackOp]

Virginity doesn't imply complete lack of experience with relationships, just having said, "No" to certain physical advances. I understand intimacy in a way that relates to my own fears of it and countless conversations with and observations of couples...even regarding moments that would normally be considered too personal for general company. (I swear I'm a professional third wheel.) I'm talking from a position of what I would and would not feel comfortable with. Two rookies can eventually gain enough experience to dominate the field. Everybody has to start somewhere. Ownership and jealousy could very well be issues that would need to be worked through, but that's true of non-virgins, too.

What I was getting at was sex is usually a breakdown of emotional barriers. If you are a "rookie"...it could lead to all types of manifestations. Its high drama..and high risk. It takes experience to learn NOT to use it as a means to manipulate and protect. Its instinctual.... Would you be "let" your SO flirt with an attractive girl? a co-worker? My ex (e) was a total social butterfly/flirt...I let her go to clubs with guy "friends". 10 years earlier...it would have been "no fucking way".

[rara avis]

What I was getting at was sex is usually a breakdown of emotional barriers. If you are a "rookie"...it could lead to all types of manifestations. Its high drama..and high risk. It takes experience to learn NOT to use it as a means to manipulate and protect. Its instinctual.... Would you be "let" your SO flirt with an attractive girl? a co-worker? My ex (e) was a total social butterfly/flirt...I let her go to clubs with guy "friends". 10 years earlier...it would have been "no fucking way".

Hmm... I think things like this depend heavily on the sense of security I have with an individual SO. One of the ways my introversion seems to be most clearly expressed is in my disinclination to build close, interdependent relationships - and I may easily feel out of sorts and vulnerable, there, if I decide to try.

The more a SO is generous with sound reassurance and in building my confidence in him, his interest in and relationship to me, the more I'll be able to relax.

Are you implying that if you've had a number of partners, it makes it less of a big deal that your SO might cheat, or... that it builds your confidence in sensing that she won't?

[BlackOp]

Are you implying that if you've had a number of partners, it makes it less of a big deal that your SO might cheat, or... that it builds your confidence in sensing that she won't?

The latter...you learn to let people be as they are. If she cheats...better to find out sooner.

[LisaKK]

Shouldn't we all marry people who we feel comfy sharing the blunt and honest truth with? That seems to be the most logical conclusion: it would avoid the situation of "how much truth is too much" problem.

Perhaps this is why I don't have a boyfriend...*sigh*

[Luthor Rex]

What I was getting at was sex is usually a breakdown of emotional barriers.

Wonder why isn't not for me... hmm.... any other INTJ's agree with me?

If you are a "rookie"...it could lead to all types of manifestations. Its high drama..and high risk. It takes experience to learn NOT to use it as a means to manipulate and protect. Its instinctual.... Would you be "let" your SO flirt with an attractive girl? a co-worker? My ex (e) was a total social butterfly/flirt...I let her go to clubs with guy "friends". 10 years earlier...it would have been "no fucking way".

You should have followed your instincts, evolution put them their for a reason. You need more Shakespeare sir and less American mainstream culture. Her going out like that is disrespectful of you and you don't need a woman like that in your life. Perhaps most people around you are desexualized and mindless about such things, but don't let them influence you.

Just say "no" to hos.

[Nikita]

What I was getting at was sex is usually a breakdown of emotional barriers. If you are a "rookie"...it could lead to all types of manifestations. Its high drama..and high risk. It takes experience to learn NOT to use it as a means to manipulate and protect. Its instinctual.... Would you be "let" your SO flirt with an attractive girl? a co-worker? My ex (e) was a total social butterfly/flirt...I let her go to clubs with guy "friends". 10 years earlier...it would have been "no fucking way".

Actually I don't think it would bother me that much. I do know that I tend to get pretty territorial when it comes to people I care about, but I also choose to trust. If I had insecurities about his fidelity, that is something I would need to work out for myself. It's not another person's fault if I struggle to allow them their freedom. Really, I just bring the argument with myself back to a consideration of how I'd want to be treated and the level of trust I'd want my partner to have in me. He can flirt. I can flirt. Ultimately, he'd be the only one in my bed (or wherever else :p).

[BlackOp]

Wonder why isn't not for me... hmm.... any other INTJ's agree with me?



You should have followed your instincts, evolution put them their for a reason. You need more Shakespeare sir and less American mainstream culture. Her going out like that is disrespectful of you and you don't need a woman like that in your life. Perhaps most people around you are desexualized and mindless about such things, but don't let them influence you.

Just say "no" to hos.

What the fuck are you talking about? :laugh: First off ...my ex was far from a "hoe". Disrespectful?...you dont even know the parameters of our situation. To insinuate that I take my cues from "American mainstream culture' (sharpens daggers, takes shot of whiskey) are fighting words. :p Seriously man....I mean seriously. Calling my friends mindless....yes, I am just a mainstream, desensitized zombie who happens to date hoes. I take it you dont know much about my past....I'll leave it at that.

[Harmony]

So a guy and a girl can't go out as friends? That sucks because most of my friend's are guys... With girlfriends or wives... And they certainly don't feel threatened by me considering they know how much of a tom boy I am, and trust their husbands/boyfriends...I can only name two girls I will hang out with, I can name about five guys. =P Most of my girl friends aren't into football and baseball... Therefore I hang out with the guys on game day.

[Luthor Rex]

So a guy and a girl can't go out as friends? That sucks because most of my friend's are guys... With girlfriends or wives... And they certainly don't feel threatened by me considering they know how much of a tom boy I am, and trust their husbands/boyfriends...I can only name two girls I will hang out with, I can name about five guys. =P Most of my girl friends aren't into football and baseball... Therefore I hang out with the guys on game day.

If you're even mildly attractive, all of your guy friends want to sleep with you.

[TheLastMohican]

If you're even mildly attractive, all of your guy friends want to sleep with you.

It's not reasonable to assume that everyone else thinks the same way you do. Keep that in mind.

[dalidaisy]

I think there are levels of truth. Here, we seem to be talking about surface truths, like, what is said. I find that true intimacy can only come from an internal truth that you can share with someone. In that way, there doesn't need to be words exchanged. You simply know the truth about one another. With a deep understanding of another person, you don't have to ask those jeans make you look fat. You know the answer. You don't have to ask if that person is interested in someone else, you just know. At least this is the case in the relationships I value deeply.

As for false flattery, well, that makes me lol. I can spot it a mile away and you can definitely rest assured you won't be getting any from me.

I just don't understand. Why be false? What does it really matter what someone's done in their past? It has shaped them to be the person they are today, the one you've chosen. Knowing their past or not is irrelevant. Or at least this is the case for me. If a partner is more experienced with sex, woo hoo! Teach me! If they are not, they can be the student. Where's the problem? They've been in love 10 times? ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. how touching. Never? Let's remedy that! I just don't see the issue.

As for white lies & the like, I do not speak them. I am honest to a fault. I do not offer my truths out for everyone to pick over, I only voice them when they are requested. I am not the kind of person who would ever intentionally harm another person, physically or emotionally. If my truth may be hurtful to someone, I try to temper it with kindness and caring.

I do not tolerate being lied to either. It offends me greatly. Dishonesty means loss of my friendship. Fortunately, I do not associate with dishonest people, so I rarely have to deal with crossing someone off my list.

In my experience, there are people out there who like to be lied to. There are those who like to lie. They play games. Games can be fun, I'm sure. I hope those people find each other & live a happy false existence. I'll be seeking my truth...

[Silversiren]

OK, as an emotional train wreck a good 90% of the time, *laughs* when I ask for an opinion, i want it honestly. A little tact perhaps but honest, and yes I can tell the difference. ;)

[rara avis]

If you're even mildly attractive, all of your guy friends want to sleep with you.

Was that just an attempt to be incendiary, or something? Because this is not really news.

And "want to" doesn't exactly mean "would", anyway. I tend to have friends who have what seems to me to be a pretty rational sense of ethics. A guy who gives the impression of someone who would easily cheat on their committed partner isn't going to be someone I buddy up with.

Being an INTJ is one of the things, I think, that makes us better able to deal with male-female friendships with less mess- I have no trouble setting boundaries with my male friends, if it seems like it could be a potential issue.

[BlackOp]

If you're even mildly attractive, all of your guy friends want to sleep with you.

This is a given......Would my ex's male friends have slept with her?...in a nanosecond. Did they have delusional hopes?... probably. You seem to be overlooking the aspect of trust.....Had I confined her to the house, what does that say about me?

[dalidaisy]

Hehe, it could mean you're into bondage. But that deals with a whole other level of trust...

[BlackOp]

Hehe, it could mean you're into bondage. But that deals with a whole other level of trust...

I said the house...not the bed posts. ;)

[dalidaisy]

Question is, did you want to confine her to the house?

[BlackOp]

Question is, did you want to confine her to the house?

No...wanted to work on artwork. I was happy they went out with her. We had a pretty good understanding of how each other operated. She needed people to energize her...I needed my solitude to recharge. Symbiotic.....

[dalidaisy]

Well, I agree with that. I need my solitude & if there's trust, I couldn't care less who my significant other went out with or where they went, as long as they leave me alone...

[rara avis]

Going by LR's reasoning, if I were in a romantic relationship, in order not to be a disrespectful ho, I'd have to give up the few friends I've worked to maintain. (They are primarily men.) Doesn't seem right to me.

I suppose this is yet another way in which you have to find someone whose preferences match your own... :p

[BlackOp]

Going by LR's reasoning, if I were in a romantic relationship, in order not to be a disrespectful ho, I'd have to give up the few friends I've worked to maintain. (They are primarily men.) Doesn't seem right to me.

I suppose this is yet another way in which you have to find someone whose preferences match your own... :p

Yeah...I'm not saying we never went out. I just needed my space sometimes....and she would be "all up in my shit" otherwise. That dirty ho!

[Lucid]

You should have followed your instincts, evolution put them their for a reason. You need more Shakespeare sir and less American mainstream culture. Her going out like that is disrespectful of you and you don't need a woman like that in your life. Perhaps most people around you are desexualized and mindless about such things, but don't let them influence you.

Yeah... because all women who have freinds of the opposite gender and sometimes go out with them are ho's.

That's totally the case with me. I don't have male friends because I enjoy their company. It's because I like to be seen with my man-harem. And going out with my friends? Yeah, that's totally disrespectful to my boyfriend. You're right, Luthor; we should go back to the way it was in the 1500's when women were treated as little more than property and certainly didn't have any rights or respect or equality. Also, we should stop bathing because Shakespeare was romantic and people didn't bathe back then. In fact, lets go back to drilling holes in our skulls to let the bad spirits out. What is wrong with our society? All these women going around with friends. Next they'll want to be allowed to wear shoes and leave the house. :p

[rara avis]

Ho.









:p :laugh:

[Lucid]

Ho.



:p :laugh:

You're wearing shoes aren't you? And talking to men! You hussy! For shame rara. For shame.

(You're just jealous of my man-harem, admit it.) :laugh:

[rara avis]

:embarassed:

I feel such shame.

[Acextreme]

Well, to the OP, yes, I would prefer truths rather than white lies, etc. Can't stand phoniness...but there are all kind of truths; I only want to hear truths that are important. Others, you can keep them to yourself. For example, I might think that you have some flaws but too minor that it's doesn't bother me at all, then I won't bring it up unless there's a need to. Likewise, there are certain things if will not affect the relationship, it's up to her whether she wants to bring them up, but for those that have effect on the relationship, I want only the truth. I don't care much about sugarcoating it, just say it straight without emotions so I know it's the truth and with rationality.

But if I am telling her the truth, depending on the nature and context, I might employ diplomacy because I know most people are not like me...being able to take things bluntly...

[Chronos]

I find that true intimacy can only come from an internal truth that you can share with someone. In that way, there doesn't need to be words exchanged. You simply know the truth about one another. With a deep understanding of another person, you don't have to ask those jeans make you look fat. You know the answer. You don't have to ask if that person is interested in someone else, you just know. At least this is the case in the relationships I value deeply.

You said it. This is exactly what I look for in relationships, the feeling that you just "know" the other person, and that they "know" you, without having to be constantly exchanging snippets of facts about each other. It's a very N sort of thing I guess.

That said, I'm very committed to the truth, and have a hard time telling even white lies. If I'm asked a direct question, I usually answer honestly. I don't ask a lot of questions of other people - but when I do, I prefer an honest answer over a sugarcoated one.

I often feel that there are entire spectrums of human interactions that I miss out on, especially when it comes to emotional intimacy. I'm no good at the games that seem to be an integral part of it for so many people. However, I can't really imagine being any other way. Anyway, it's not like I'm incapable of intimacy - it's just that I have a very specific and nonstandard view of what this entails, i.e. effortless, "You just know" rapport with a minimum amount of what I prefer to call bullshit. Too bad you just don't get that sort of thing very often ...

For example, I might think that you have some flaws but too minor that it's doesn't bother me at all, then I won't bring it up unless there's a need to. Likewise, there are certain things if will not affect the relationship, it's up to her whether she wants to bring them up, but for those that have effect on the relationship, I want only the truth. I don't care much about sugarcoating it, just say it straight without emotions so I know it's the truth and with rationality.

I can relate to this as well. I hate some people's tendency of always finding faults - like nagging is going to change anything in the long run. I'm much more live and let live myself. If I've decided that I'm going to commit to someone, I will tolerate their minor flaws and accept them as part of who they are. I expect to be treated the same back. I would much rather be having interesting, meaningful conversations about everything and nothing than critising how people dress, how they behaved at that dinner party, etc.

[Zhen]

Going by LR's reasoning, if I were in a romantic relationship, in order not to be a disrespectful ho, I'd have to give up the few friends I've worked to maintain. (They are primarily men.) Doesn't seem right to me.



Yeah I had to do that...not worth it! And now most of my mates are in serious relationships, I've found I can't be good friends with them anymore because 1. their respective girlfriends put their foot down/have a problem with them hanging out with other females or no2. the male doesn't feel quite right about it...I guess one on one close friendships with the opposite sex if they are not your partner can get a bit trickier when you're older as the stakes are higher...shame though because I've always gotten along with male friends much better since young and it definitely takes less "conscientious effort" on my part!

wait...back to the original thread though...I like COLD.HARD.TRUTH anyday in everything. Unfortunately most people are pretty sensitive so because they can't take whole truths personally they decide it is better giving you white lies or omissions...WEAK people...can't stand them!