2/3 USA Think Gov. Had Specific Warning of 9/11

[Wildflower]

I am curious as to what the Masterminds think of this topic.


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Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings, according to a Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll...


An earlier Scripps Howard/Ohio University survey, conducted in July 2006, revealed that more than one-third of Americans thought federal officials assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East...

[rocksteady]

Question is too limited in scope.

Here's the answer.

Some Government officials had prior knowledge, and tried to warn other Government officials, but no one listened. The power of bureaucracy.

[Tarrick]

Also, did they have any specific information about what was going to happen? They may have know something was in the works, maybe even known it was that day, but without knowledge of how or where, there wasn't much they could have done. Our intelligence services were pretty well gutted after the Cold War was over as we became increasingly dependent on electronic surveillance, which left us vulnerable to less tech dependent groups.

[brewmaster]

Count me in the camp of "they assisted, or didn't stop it"

If you have the time watch To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. part 2 (parts 1 and 3 are a good watch too)

I have heard many arguments against the points brought up in that movie, however the arguments against have been inadequate to fully discredit the claims they make. There are too many problems, and they present data that no other source is willing to talk about.

[The Rose]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories.
The world is run by humans.
Humans make mistakes.
9/11 was so grand a scheme no one would have believed it ahead of time.

[thegnat]

Maybe no one would believe it but I believe they had information on it. And perhaps government officials should check everything to make sure it is or isn't going to happen. Or prepare for it in case it happens. For example, if a school gets a bomb threat they evacuate everyone until they're sure it's a hoax.

[Jennywocky]

I suppose the question is also (1) how many possible threats were the agencies dealing with at the time and (2) how did this potential threat compare?

One problem in following up leads in any field (in police work or anything, really) is the number of leads vs. a limited amount of manpower to explore them.

It's not whether the threat was known about, it's whether the threats were prioritized correctly in terms of focus of attention.

(I mean, really -- it sounds so juvenile, compared to other potential threats, airplanes being commandeered by young men with box cutters. Apparently it was much more realistic than it sounds, though.)

[The Rose]

Maybe no one would believe it but I believe they had information on it. And perhaps government officials should check everything to make sure it is or isn't going to happen. Or prepare for it in case it happens. For example, if a school gets a bomb threat they evacuate everyone until they're sure it's a hoax.Yes. NOW we know better. But the FIRST time, we didn't know.

The Rose added, 3 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

Has anyone read the 9 11 commission final report?
I have only read a little of it.

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[Santana28]

I think this question is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether the government knew in advance or not - what matters is that 1) we have a corrupt system which could potentially have orchestrated something like this, and 2) that we even have to ask the question.

those 2 things alone give us all the reason in the world for taking action to solving the core issues. if we waste all of our time focusing on whether it was real or not, we lose sight of what really needs to change - government itself.

[brewmaster]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories.
The world is run by humans.
Humans make mistakes.
9/11 was so grand a scheme no one would have believed it ahead of time.

Managiala, its not a conspiracy theory its a conspiracy fact (insert winking smiley here, I can't figure that out)

Yes the world is run by humans and they make mistakes. But humans are also manipulative, power hungry, bloodthirsty, etc. Seriously though watch the movie.

By the way the 9/11 report is bunk.

Edit:
I didn't see your post Santana28 before posting, but your point is excellent.

[logan235711]

I am curious as to what the Masterminds think of this topic.
First, I think you already mis-interpreted the quote considering it says:
"Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible..."

Possible does not mean do, so the thread title of 2/3 USA Think Gov. Had Specific Warning of 9/11 is incorrect. Second, I might lean towards the notion that whomever wrote this used 'possible' because they couldn't get enough support otherwise, thus has to resort to getting as big of numbers as they could by merely have people say 'Sure. I think it's possible.'

The second paragraph contains the phrase "...revealed that more than one-third of Americans thought..." This is interesting because it changes from possible to thought leaving me a bit curious as to this sudden shift, and if the reader even had any notion of what any of this really means. So I'm a bit skeptical as to the source, validity, and value of any of this quoted material.

[The Rose]

First, I think you already mis-interpreted the quote considering it says:
"Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible..."

Possible does not mean do, so the thread title of 2/3 USA Think Gov. Had Specific Warning of 9/11 is incorrect. Second, I might lean towards the notion that whomever wrote this used 'possible' because they couldn't get enough support otherwise, thus has to resort to getting as big of numbers as they could by merely have people say 'Sure. I think it's possible.'

The second paragraph contains the phrase "...revealed that more than one-third of Americans thought..." This is interesting because it changes from possible to thought leaving me a bit curious as to this sudden shift, and if the reader even had any notion of what any of this really means. So I'm a bit skeptical as to the source, validity, and value of any of this quoted material.I'm with you.

[Bossy Mom]

It's scary that so many INTJs believe in conspiracies. Yikes!

[Santana28]

It's scary that so many INTJs believe in conspiracies. Yikes!

I find it scary that you believe "conspiracies" to be something negative. In this world we have only facts, and speculation. The only thing that turns speculation into a "conspiracy" are circumstantial evidence, a group of people who believe in questioning the status quo (hence, a lot of INTJs), and another group that opposes questioning the subject.

Think about why people are branded "conspiracy theorists" "nutcases" "loonies" etc in the first place before aligning yourself against them based on a gut negative reaction to the term itself.

Simple human nature. Name-calling never changes the facts.

[rocksteady]

The funny thing is, it almost doesn't matter if there was a conspiracy or not, we caused it either way. If you are familiar with blow-back theory as applied to foreign policy, 9/11 was a direct result of the US meddling in the affairs of other countries during the shady quasi-permanent war we've been fighting against countries that won't submit to us since WWII. So either way, it's our own damn fault.

Imagine if a bunch of shock troops from the Canadian CIA flew in here and killed your family, I bet you'd be pissed. I believe Osama Bin Laden is an INTJ as well, so he did the smartest thing he could possibly do, and that is set us up to kill ourselves by slowing killing our economy by fighting a war we can't ever win.

rocksteady added, 2 Minutes and 28 Seconds later...

It's scary that so many INTJs believe in conspiracies. Yikes!

I find it scary that we are the same personality type, I beginning to have my doubts!

[The Rose]

Managiala, its not a conspiracy theory its a conspiracy fact (insert winking smiley here, I can't figure that out)

Yes the world is run by humans and they make mistakes. But humans are also manipulative, power hungry, bloodthirsty, etc. Seriously though watch the movie.

By the way the 9/11 report is bunk.

Edit:
I didn't see your post Santana28 before posting, but your point is excellent.I believe it's carefully studied and documented truth.

[Figmentum]

U.S.S. Cole... was that not a warning?

[brewmaster]

Then you haven't done your research. Just look who was on the committee. Also be aware that unless everyone unanimously agreed, that data point would be left out of the report.

[Wildflower]

First, I think you already mis-interpreted the quote considering it says:
"Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible..."



I didn't think there was room in the title to be that specific and since I cut and paste the quotes I assumed most would read for themselves and so I had no worries of misleading those who pay attention. The poll asks both "yes" and "it is possible" so there would be no problems with that.

[INTJgal]

I think there's another option in the poll that's missing. I would've voted,

"I doubt most government officials knew. But it's highly likely the few that "sorta knew" closed their eyes and left gaping holes for other non-US officials to orchestrate the attacks."

Sort of like leaving the keys in the ignition and leaving your vehicle in a bad neighbourhood. Maybe you didn't know it was going to happen because you weren't directly scheming with people, but c'mon given the conditions you're pretty much involved yourself.

Chomsky said in Perilous Power (before the 911 Truth info came out) that he doubted that the US government did it to themselves, but that it's pretty much a guarantee that they had a heads up and didn't react appropriately. (But I must state that they get millions of threats in a very short unit of time, so it's also just that playing the odds is part of the game of government safety)

[Wildflower]

9/11 was so grand a scheme no one would have believed it ahead of time.


I have trouble accepting that it would have seemed too grand a scale for those who were aware of global terror events at the time. The Bojinka Plot was taken very seriously at the time it was discovered, so it seems it would have been easy to also take the 9/11 plot seriously as well. In 1994, Algerian terrorists hijacked a plane and planned to crash it into the Eiffel Tower. These are just a few examples of evidence that it was not far fetched at the time to think of using planes as weapons.

The Bojinka Plot was apparently well enough known to fire the imaginations of the creators of the Lone Gunman series to create a plot line where the plan is: "for a small group of government operatives to crash a jetliner into New York City in order to keep tensions high and increase arms sales..." (The Lone Gunmen: 1AEB79 Pilot which aired 4th March 2001.)

It wasn't so far fetched to think of hijacked airplanes used as bombs, it was within the realm of people's thoughts at that time.



Wikipedia: The Bojinka Plot was a planned large-scale terrorist attack by Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to blow up eleven airliners and their passengers as they flew from Asia to America. The term can also refer to a combination of plots by Yousef and Mohammed to take place in January 1995, including a plot to assassination Pope John Paul II and crash a plane into the CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, as well as the airline bombing plot. The Bojinka plot was disrupted after a chemical fire drew Filipino police attention on January 6 and January 7, 1995, but some lessons learned were apparently used by the planners of the September 11 attacks.

The money handed down to the plotters originated from Al-Qaeda, the international Islamic jihadi organization then based in Sudan.

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1994

Air France Flight Hijacked

A group of Algerian hijackers seize an Air France flight headed for Paris. The crisis ends after French commandos storm the plane. According to some French investigators, the hijackers planned to blow up the plane above Paris or crash it into the Eiffel Tower.

[elsdfr]

As impossible as a conspiracy might be things that remain unexplained for me are Building number 7. It was no where neat the tower yet it was evacuated and leveled at the same time while not causing any damage to other buildings around it. It was also housing some "interesting" departments as well.

The fact that the steel melted _and_ the tower fell straight down?

The plane that hit the Pentagon seemed to cause very little damage for something with its wing span.

And the fact they can't find Osama when they'll quite happily spend billions each month waging a war against Iraq...which was waged with the 911 backdrop, had it not been I think the world would have had a much worse reaction to the "intervention" in Iraq had the US not been hit.

Also if you look at the victims of the attack and the people dying waging war in its after marth you really have to question the sanity of it all.

History will be the judge of it all no doubt. I also feel terrible for the number of people that have died because of it but I'm not just going to swallow this one.

[Bossy Mom]

It's scary that so many INTJs believe in conspiracies. Yikes!

I'm from Missouri. Prove it to me. It also bothers me that so many people think the U.S. has deserved to be attacked. We do so much for other people around the world.

The U.S. has an overabundance of lemmings.

[brewmaster]

watch the movie I posted, I don't have the patience to go through it, but it sums up things I have been saying for years.

As far as doing so much for the world: They didn't ask for our help, and don't want it. We mess with these countries politically, and then expect them to see the world through our perspective, of course they hate us. Imagine if some Muslim country took over the U.S. and started making a theocracy out of our government, making women wear birkas (sp?), etc. I know I would do everything in my power to kill as many of them as possible.

[INTJgal]

I'm from Missouri. Prove it to me. It also bothers me that so many people think the U.S. has deserved to be attacked. We do so much for other people around the world.

The U.S. has an overabundance of lemmings.

This is clearly coming from someone who has never once flown overseas, sat down and had a conversation with a commoner from a 3rd world country. I have done it a time or two. This is not the response you will get.

I won't argue that Americans do good things. They do. I don't think the US deserved to be attacked. No one deserves that.


But mostly they screw people over.

[GOD]

Problem is that all governments get warnings on a daily basis.

I think one thing that all INTJs will agree with, is that in terms of planning and impact for a small outlay, it was truly incredible. It was a David and Goliath hit.

Funny thing, is that I'd seen this type of occurrence potential before 9/11.. I remember when I was at university sitting near the cockpit door and seeing straight through the front windscreen... and thinking WTF; someone could just walk in and fly the plane into a bunch of buildings or into the ground... ??? And I thought about how Bank tellers have more protection from nutters....

[elsdfr]

We mess with these countries politically, and then expect them to see the world through our perspective, of course they hate us. Imagine if some Muslim country took over the U.S. and started making a theocracy out of our government, making women wear birkas (sp?), etc. I know I would do everything in my power to kill as many of them as possible.

Hah nice point.

Guilt by association? "What, you don't believe that this is the best way for you to live/govern? You must be one of THEM, death to the "infidels!"" :(

[feralfae]

I think this question is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether the government knew in advance or not - what matters is that 1) we have a corrupt system which could potentially have orchestrated something like this, and 2) that we even have to ask the question.

those 2 things alone give us all the reason in the world for taking action to solving the core issues. if we waste all of our time focusing on whether it was real or not, we lose sight of what really needs to change - government itself.

Amen, we especially need total transparency in government. Okay, maybe there are a very few bits of information needing to be hidden, but not more than a 1/1000th of what gets classified.
I. too, don't care who did what: I see the same corruption and flaunting of power, and hope we can correct that.
Great post, Santana.

[Bossy Mom]

This is clearly coming from someone who has never once flown overseas, sat down and had a conversation with a commoner from a 3rd world country. I have done it a time or two. This is not the response you will get.

I won't argue that Americans do good things. They do. I don't think the US deserved to be attacked. No one deserves that.


But mostly they screw people over.

I cannot believe how wrong you are about me. Never assume anything. I have been overseas, and I have worked closely with people who have been helped by: 1:) a company I worked for for 16 years that had a division that won contracts with the US government to aid countries that are economically underdeveloped; and 2) the university I work at now that has won contracts with the US government to aid countries that are economically underdeveloped. I have worked with and known people struggling to recover from decades of communist oppression and also countries in the MENA region. I have found these hundreds of individuals I have worked with to be grateful to America.

[bucolic_]

This is clearly coming from someone who has never once flown overseas, sat down and had a conversation with a commoner from a 3rd world country. I have done it a time or two. This is not the response you will get.

I won't argue that Americans do good things. They do. I don't think the US deserved to be attacked. No one deserves that.


But mostly they screw people over.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, (I think America has done good and bad, what the ratio is, I don't know, or care to know) but do you really think talking with a couple third-world citizens is really going to give you the best data?

[brewmaster]

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, (I think America has done good and bad, what the ratio is, I don't know, or care to know) but do you really think talking with a couple third-world citizens is really going to give you the best data?

It would likely give a better impression than talking with the affluent citizens of those third-world countries.

[messiestobjects]

There are organizations within America that are (supposedly) not government funded, such as the Peace Corps, which people whom they've helped are likely grateful to. Then there is the US government, which has recently spent an enormous amount of time and effort turning all of that good will for us into a mockery of shit.

The sad fact is that whatever the ratio of good vs. evil that this huge entity we call the USA is responsible for is a moo point. (You know, it's like a cow's opinion, it doesn't matter. It's moo.) Our government, as led into it's current incarnation of disaster by President Fuckhole and his Dildo Administration, not only scares those of us with brains here in the US, it scares the rest of the world more. At least most of us here are citizens, with certain inalienable rights... oh wait, never mind. Those are going fast.

The fact is, whatever "good" we've done in the world is squanty little rabbit turds compared to the fear we've come to inspire. We've shown that we do what we want, where we want, without concern for another Nation's sovereignty. Nobody, not even our bitches in London, want an America that feels it's morally superior to them, running around the world stealing oil and wagging our finger at others as though they're misbehaving when they do no more than we have done.

In the end, it's about the fear we've inspired, not the small good deeds which are quickly forgotten.

[prometheus]

We do so much for other people around the world.



If we didn't do so much to these people maybe they wouldn't hate us so much. We sure have influenced people in Iraq.


The U.S. has an overabundance of lemmings.


You have a "support our troops" ribbon on your vehicle, don't you?

[bucolic_]

It would likely give a better impression than talking with the affluent citizens of those third-world countries.

Eh, I doubt it. What do they know of figures, etc. They, like most, will only know the most about their own situation. How do they know that just because they aren't getting aid personally from the US, that others aren't? I'd gladly talk to an expert on the subject over someone actually in need of aid.

[Bossy Mom]

If we didn't do so much to these people maybe they wouldn't hate us so much. We sure have influenced people in Iraq.




You have a "support our troops" ribbon on your vehicle, don't you?

You are another one who makes assumptions based on a few written words. I have 3 bumper stickers: "Janeite" and "My Other Car is a Barouche" (because I am a Jane Austen fan), and "My windows aren't dirty - that's my dachshund's nose art." I also have a green ribbon that says, "Donate life" (for organ donation).

[prometheus]

You are another one who makes assumptions based on a few written words. I have 3 bumper stickers: "Janeite" and "My Other Car is a Barouche" (because I am a Jane Austen fan), and "My windows aren't dirty - that's my dachshund's nose art." I also have a green ribbon that says, "Donate life" (for organ donation).

OK, I stand corrected. Do you support an imperialist foreign policy?

[Bossy Mom]

OK, I stand corrected. Do you support an imperialist foreign policy?

Why do you care what I think? You call someone who believes in helping others in underdeveloped countries try to improve their economic status imperialistic? Many people try to twist the words of others to create misrepresentations and sully them. You are wasting your time with me. A is A.

[messiestobjects]

I don't think that the point here is that helping underdeveloped countries is Imperialistic, I think the point is that that is absolutely not what we are actually doing, for the most part.

[rocksteady]

I don't think that the point here is that helping underdeveloped countries is Imperialistic, I think the point is that that is absolutely not what we are actually doing, for the most part.

yeah since when have imperialism and charity been synonymous?

[Lucid]

Why do you care what I think? You call someone who believes in helping others in underdeveloped countries try to improve their economic status imperialistic? Many people try to twist the words of others to create misrepresentations and sully them. You are wasting your time with me. A is A.

The problem isn't helping underdeveloped countries. There is a certain amount of that that goes on, but if you think that's all we do, you need to pay more attention.

Many people in the Middle East don't like the US because we do things like installing leaders into their countries who actually work for the CIA to protect our oil interests. Before it was oil, we were heavily involved in the politics of the region to because we saw the Middle East as being a buffer between communist Russia and communist China. We thought that if the Russians and the Chinese could establish an easy land based trade route through the Middle East, we might lose the cold war. Also, our supplying weapons to Israel (and I'm not taking a stance on whether that was right or wrong) made us very unpopular with most countries in that region.
We've done similar things with countries in South America.
The problem is that most of the citizens and governments of many other countries view our involvement as being only to protect out own interests at the cost of their well-being. In most cases, I'd agree with them. But it doesn't really matter if that's the case. What matters is that we are perceived as being this way.

What I have heard in the subject is that 9/11 was the result of our meddlings in the Middle East both concerning the cold war and oil, and our involvement in Desert Storm.

In addition, I hardly think that bombing the ever-loving crap out of a region, completely destabilizing the place, as well as royally fucking their infrastructure up to spread democracy to people who don't necessarily want it... or at least, don't want it as much as they want clean water, electricity and the ability to go to school without being blown up, counts as doing good works.
Although that last bit may be a little off topic. If so, my bad.

[Quite Robert]

I think that it has been stated as a fact that some members of the intelligence agencies did have reports of a possible attack that may have gone as high as the Sec. of State, but they didn't know how seriously to take the threats because they are so common.

...oh and i totally don't believe in the conspiracy aspects.

[Younggun88]

I think that the government knew in the sense that some people in the FBI/CIA were suspicious of the activity of some of the terrorists but they get thrats every day and prior to 9/11 noone would have guessed. It was illogical to spend time on what then could of been another waste. Now in hindsight we see differntly but as said before people are imperfect by nature. Lets hope we just learn from our mistakes.

[iamnotspock]

Regardless, our Defense Dept. failed massively and heads should have rolled. Starting at the top. But accountability? Nah.... let's just invade Iraq and say Saddam did it.