Reading

[rocksteady]

Some people do it, many do not.

do you think there is a fundamental personality difference between people that read frequently and well, and people that do not?

I say this because in order to read and comprehend material, you must be able to visualize things mentally. Now, with Television, this is not necessary, and it seems many people never really develop this skill. Gratefully, we are moving into the internet realm, where many of these concerns are met.

Now, do some people just not have this ability, or do they not take enough time to learn it? It seems many people of normal intelligence, just do not have the ability, and I wonder if personality differences have something to do with it.

[Todos]

You should separate "read frequently" and "read well" if you're considering reading to be an ability. A person can have the ability to read well, but not care to do it very frequently -- or only do it when needed (solving a specific problem for instance).

If you wanted to answer this question with a test of people, you'd probably find the scores related to
- type of material to be comprehended (fiction vs non fiction)
- # of pages read recently by the testee (perhaps by type of material)
- general intelligence

I do not think mental visualization is a requirement for reading comprehension, but I could be wrong. I think it could be helpful with certain aspects of reading, but someone who is without any imagination could still "connect the dots" of a piece of material in order to comprehend it.

[Kfbr]

I only read when I have to solve a problem, like Todos said. I feel I do it well, and rarely read fiction. You probably won't find nearly as many books in my apartment as other INTJ's.

I think the most important thing I've learned is how to find information. I write a lot of case briefs for my prelaw studies and I've got it down to a science in finding information about specific cases and laws. I love it and love reading only if its serving me a purpose.

You will, however, find abnormally large amounts of movies and tv shows on my harddrives..

[rwyatt365]

I think that reading is something that takes time, discipline and imagination; things that are in short supply today. There may be some personality-driven factors, but I think that the major influence is cultural. Western culture, in general, and US cultural specifically do not value the traits that encourage reading, and so it is becoming a lost art. Many people have the ability to visualize but TV, movies and the (picture-driven) internet relieve them of the necessity to exercise that through reading.

[Myrak]

Heh, that post reminded me of a bit of one of Bill Hicks' routines:
I was in Nashville, Tennesee last year, and after the show I went to a Waffle House, I'm not proud of it, but I was hungry.
And I'm alone, I'm eating and I'm reading a book, right? Waitress walks over to me, "Tch tch tch tch. Hey, what you readin' for?"
Isn't that like the weirdest fucking question you've ever heard? Not what am I reading, but what am I reading for? Well, goddamnit, you stumped me. Why do I read?
Well... hmmm... I guess I read for a lot of reasons, but one of the main one is so I don't end up being a fucking waffle waitress.

Then this trucker from the next booth leans over and says "Well... looks like we got ourselves a reader...". Am I sensing a weird anti-intellectualism around here?

As for me, I read a lot of stuff on internet forums, and love perusing interesting discussions to stimulate my mind. I don't usually like reading books but I've made an effort to read more physical books in the past year. I read what I think is now my favourite book, 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest' which I absolutely loved. I've also read stuff like George Orwell's '1984' and Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World' in the past year and enjoyed them thoroughly. I'm also pushing on through a 1200-page C++ beginner's guide. It's tough but I think it'll pay off (200 pages in as of posting this).

[Bossy Mom]

I always have a book going. My daughter won't read unless it's a fashion magazine. She is always asking what a word means that I am saying. I tell her if she would read, her vocabulary would improve. I find it difficult to discourse with individuals who cannot express themselves well.

[Hdier]

I love reading, mainly Sci-Fi/Fantasy (mostly fantasy), and I read well (which only stands to reason; I don't have anything like dyslexia and I've been reading since pre-k). Also, I don't really visualize what I read; I absorb it. It becomes like a memory, and my memory cuts out what it considers to be unimportant (I usually just remember that, say, there was a substance with the following attributes: rather than remembering what it looks like; I work better that way), so I like to think that I've gone beyond visualizing.

[mielikki]

I'm with Hdier - I learned to read pre-kindergarten, and therefore never 'learned" to sub-vocalize while reading. It has made for some interesting moments when I have first used a word that I have read but never spoken before. "Halcyon" is a fine example :-)

Because of that I read extremely quickly, as well. And I am a total reading sleaze. For fiction, I prefer sci-fi/fantasy and psychological thrillers, but honestly I will read a cereal box - or any kind of total shlock that is lying around.

[Hdier]

Yeah, if I see words, I can't resist reading, but I generally prefer to read fantasy literature (right now the Valdemar series).

[mielikki]

Right now I am reading Environmental Science, so no time for fiction. Damn.

I always include a book by VC Andrews in my mother's Christmas stocking. (Amazing. The woman has been dead for years and still keeps pumping them out..) which is a hideous insult to her Classical, private-school education. I know that if it has words, she is compelled to read it. On the down side, she tries to force me to read them after. I appear to have better control than her, because I can usually pass.

[BlackHawk]

I read anything and everything, whenever. I have a tendency to go through books way too fast, though (I can only get to a good library once a week, and at a 500 page novel every night or so, I usually check out a lot of books). My residence is a veritable library in and of itself, but i've read everything at least once. There are shelves upon shelves of books, from the classics to universe theories by Hawking. And I retain the vast majority of what I read. I also go into further research if a particular topic interests me (lots of things interest me!).

[asongforgrace]

I love reading, mainly Sci-Fi/Fantasy (mostly fantasy), and I read well (which only stands to reason; I don't have anything like dyslexia and I've been reading since pre-k). Also, I don't really visualize what I read; I absorb it. It becomes like a memory, and my memory cuts out what it considers to be unimportant (I usually just remember that, say, there was a substance with the following attributes: rather than remembering what it looks like; I work better that way), so I like to think that I've gone beyond visualizing.

I find this too - particularly with fanatasy novels, which I went through at a rate of knots until a couple of years ago (when I started reading less due to increased study - something I regret and am trying to rectify).
I also sometimes find, months or years after reading a book, I am convinced I actually watched a movie (when in fact I am remembering reading the book), as I have such a vivid visual sense of the story.
hope that made sense hey, I'm a bit tired

[Antares]

I tend to read non-fiction much more than I do fiction, just like I like documentaries much more than fictional movies. I used to hate reading because I was stuck with fiction all the time, in fact. And then I picked a non-fiction book, and it opened my eyes. I now love reading. You will find more science/history/philosophy/language books than fiction on my shelves. I visit the library just for the fun of it and take up to hours in the non-fiction section and when I went back to Hong Kong, I spent the majority of the time in PageOne, which has a very good collection of books. Yes. I refused to go to Disney or Ocean Park and visiting my family just for reading.

I think I'd enjoy pulp fiction more, as I'm an impatient person. I just can't stand long, tedious passages with no real action or dialogue; just description. It's the action that excites me, and usually, after more than 5 pages without the aformentioned things, the book is gone before I can say 'boring'.

I can read at a fairly fast pace and if pushed, can finish several books a day.

[coffeeloverfreak]

Personally, I was a bookworm as a kid; I could read a book in a couple of hours, and punishment for me was being told I wasn't allowed to read. I watched very little TV as a kid, but I was always reading. When I couldn't get my hands on enough new books to keep my reading thirst quenched, I would re-read old ones until they turned dog-eared.

As a result, I developed a rich imaginary life and an extensive vocabulary. I also developed the highly useful ability to speed-read.

But my love of reading had a few, erm, unfortunate and amusing consequences. For instance, I could spell and understand a wide range of words that I had no idea how to pronounce. This would be embarrassing at times, when I'd use them out loud and say them completely wrong. Also, due to my penchent for reading historical fiction, I had a bad habit of mixing up fiction and fact when I would later study the same history in school. For me, a good book about a historical period or event was more vivid or "real" than the dry description from my textbook.

Still, I think it's immeasurably important for kids to read as much as possible. It's hard to force; if a child has no interest in reading, it can't be spoon-fed. But a genuine love of reading can be invaluable to a child and to the same child when he or she grows into an intelligent, capable adult.

I think kids read more today than they ever did, due to the sheer volume of content they are reading online every day. However, in this case, quantity is very definitely not related to quality. When kids spend all day reading unpunctuated abbreviatons on their friends' facebook profiles, they aren't necessarily learning much.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I don't think it has anything to do with type or intelligence. I think that people who love fiction, non-fiction, and fantasy novels have really good imaginations. So when they read a book for entertainment purposes, they are able to visualize the story better than any hollywood director could ever create (except maybe Lord of the Rings which was phenominally well done, but I still prefer the books). This keeps them going back to books........it's just better entertainment for them than a movie.

Anyone else here almost cry when they found out that Robert Jordan died?

[PortInStorm]

I'm with Hdier - I learned to read pre-kindergarten, and therefore never 'learned" to sub-vocalize while reading. It has made for some interesting moments when I have first used a word that I have read but never spoken before. "Halcyon" is a fine example :-)

Because of that I read extremely quickly, as well. And I am a total reading sleaze. For fiction, I prefer sci-fi/fantasy and psychological thrillers, but honestly I will read a cereal box - or any kind of total shlock that is lying around.

Funny- I refused to speak for the longest time as a kid, and when I finally did, I spoke fully formed sentences etc. Perhaps my reading was the cause...

Love that - "reading sleaze"!! I'll pick up a shampoo bottle while I'm on the can, and think absurd thoughts to get me through the intellectual downtime: "Hmmm, can you really 'quench' hair's thirst? Isn't it dead keratin or something? But it grows, so perhaps giving it vitamins would be considered 'quenching thirst'... But is the delivery effective in a shampoo? Wouldn't it have to be in the diet?" etc. etc.

[Jgib5328]

I think it's not really specific to the type. I do however believe that SPs would have a lot of trouble reading, not because of comprehension ability or intelligence, but because they have a hard time sitting still.

As a kid I never really read, until midway through high school. I became fascinated by learning. I tend to prefer reading either non-fiction related to an interest or classic literature. My preferred genre is fantasy, like the other INTJs. At college now, I'm forced to read a lot for school too, but sometimes the stuff isn't that interesting, IE abstract linear algebra.

Another thing is that while I'm reading non-fiction I sometimes wish I could be reading fiction so I can enjoy a thought provoking story, but while I'm reading fiction I worry about wasting time because I'm not learning something that is useful (excluding vocabulary and increased reading comprehension, among other things).

[Merle]

I am an utterly voracious reader... I have to read between 6 and 10 books a week for college, but will usually read at least a couple of books on top of that for fun... when I wasn't in college and was working full-time I would usually read around 4-5 novels a week. A total mixture of genres etc... but nowadays with college reading having an emphasis on pretty dense, heavy, 'serious' literature or equally dense, heavy lit crit and theory I tend to read mostly SF for fun because it feels separate from the stuff I 'have' to read... and therefore more like relaxation...

[Jgib5328]

I am an utterly voracious reader... I have to read between 6 and 10 books a week for college, but will usually read at least a couple of books on top of that for fun... when I wasn't in college and was working full-time I would usually read around 4-5 novels a week. A total mixture of genres etc... but nowadays with college reading having an emphasis on pretty dense, heavy, 'serious' literature or equally dense, heavy lit crit and theory I tend to read mostly SF for fun because it feels separate from the stuff I 'have' to read... and therefore more like relaxation...

How can you read that many books in a week? Do you read constantly or something?

[ElstonGunn]

I'm with Hdier - I learned to read pre-kindergarten, and therefore never 'learned" to sub-vocalize while reading. It has made for some interesting moments when I have first used a word that I have read but never spoken before. "Halcyon" is a fine example :-)

You mean like "máckabray" (macabre)?

I tend to read in spurts. I always have a book going, but sometimes I'd rather do something else. Other times, I read for several hours without so much as a pee break.

[Santana28]

i've very recently discovered how to enjoy it - i have never, ever enjoyed reading up until i picked up Ayn Rand. Even my absolute favorite books are torture for me to read.

I've begun to figure out that it isn't the story, but the writing style of the author. Ayn Rand i read very fluidly. Certain authors are no problem at all, even though the words are very complicated and the subject matter difficult. I have always had to re-read sentences over and over again to grasp the material. I start books and lose interest after half a chapter. I read the beginning and the end, but neglect the middle. Really... i hate reading under those conditions.

But i'm looking more into similar-minded authors and i'm enjoying what i have read so far. Maybe reading isn't so bad afterall.

(side note - one of the reason i neglected reading is because i didn't want to influence or corrupt my own formation of opinions on various subjects) - now that i am reading more it is amazing how many concepts i read of and say "hey, i reached that conclusion years ago on my own."

[coffeeloverfreak]

(side note - one of the reason i neglected reading is because i didn't want to influence or corrupt my own formation of opinions on various subjects) - now that i am reading more it is amazing how many concepts i read of and say "hey, i reached that conclusion years ago on my own."

Just had to comment on this statement because I find it fascinating. It's the polar opposite of how think about reading.

For me, the more I read, the more diverse viewpoints and knowledge I seek out, the more "ammunition" I have to form opinions on things.

If there's a subject I know very little about, normally I'll try to refrain from forming an opinion until I've had time to do some research and get different sides of the story. I feel like rushing to a snap judgment without having a good understanding of the big picture would be wrong of me, so I try to read as much as possible, talk to people involved if possible, and really delve into a topic so I can form an opinion that's researched and more nuanced.

For precisely that reason, I always make an effort to read books written from points of view that differ from mine. It's the devil's advocate thing again; before I reject a point of view, I need to understand how those who hold it arrived at their way of thinking. This could lead me to embrace it... or to better defend my judgment against attacks based on it.

I know it sounds cheesy but I really believe those slogans about how "knowledge is power". Personally, I think that ignorance, if anything, is the corrupting force.

[Santana28]

Just had to comment on this statement because I find it fascinating. It's the polar opposite of how think about reading.

For me, the more I read, the more diverse viewpoints and knowledge I seek out, the more "ammunition" I have to form opinions on things.

If there's a subject I know very little about, normally I'll try to refrain from forming an opinion until I've had time to do some research and get different sides of the story. I feel like rushing to a snap judgment without having a good understanding of the big picture would be wrong of me, so I try to read as much as possible, talk to people involved if possible, and really delve into a topic so I can form an opinion that's researched and more nuanced.

For precisely that reason, I always make an effort to read books written from points of view that differ from mine. It's the devil's advocate thing again; before I reject a point of view, I need to understand how those who hold it arrived at their way of thinking. This could lead me to embrace it... or to better defend my judgment against attacks based on it.

I know it sounds cheesy but I really believe those slogans about how "knowledge is power". Personally, I think that ignorance, if anything, is the corrupting force.

i agree with you actually. i'm not quite sure where the need has come from for me... maybe something in my childhood. i realize that i would probably learn things much sooner, and be able to apply what i've learned more usefully by building a larger knowledge base. maybe its pride. when i read something that give me that "eureka!" moment - i feel bad and like i am cheating somehow, because i have learned something that i was not yet ready to have known on my own terms. its like cheating on a test. when i read something that i have already discovered after the fact, it confirms to me my own worth and ability - and that i am going in the right direction.

obviously, if knowledge itself were the end goal - there are more efficient ways of going about that. but to me, it is the learning process itself that i find rewarding. i guess thats it for me.

ps...coffeelover... the more i read from you, the more i think you are in IxTP

[denaria]

Like many other here I'm a reading addict. At least a dozen novels a week, newspapers, magazines, cereal packets....

I read somewhere (New Scientist?) that to become a genius at anything (soccer, piano, stochastic phenomena*), you have to start off with a reasonable innate ability and then practice, practice, practice for at least ten years. Well, with 49 years practice, I am a reading genius.



* To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. just cracks me up....

[Lei Yang]

I never really understood newspapers, magazines and the like, but I've always kind of lived through the books I read. If I read about some cool character, I'd want to be like them, etc.
It's strange, but I don't really visualize what I read either. It slows me down too much, and I'm really not THAT patient. Is it really a normal method?

[Merle]

How can you read that many books in a week? Do you read constantly or something?

yeah, pretty much...for college I write two 2,000 word essays a week... for each I have to read all the primary texts (some of which I will have read before-hand)-so say I'm writing on 4 novels for each essay I'll probably have to read 2 for each because I've read the others... then for each essay I need to read at least 2-3 secondary texts...so that's between 8-10 books total..then there's journal articles on top of that...I don't have anything else to do...I don't have a job, reading those books is my job...so I read them during working hours.
I read books for my own enjoyment in the evenings before I go to sleep...

[Jgib5328]

yeah, pretty much...for college I write two 2,000 word essays a week... for each I have to read all the primary texts (some of which I will have read before-hand)-so say I'm writing on 4 novels for each essay I'll probably have to read 2 for each because I've read the others... then for each essay I need to read at least 2-3 secondary texts...so that's between 8-10 books total..then there's journal articles on top of that...I don't have anything else to do...I don't have a job, reading those books is my job...so I read them during working hours.
I read books for my own enjoyment in the evenings before I go to sleep...

You majoring in English then?

[Merle]

well not 'majoring' no - I live in England - we study only one subject at University - but yes, my degree is 'English Language and Literature'...although I don't know why they call it that - except for one term in the second year the whole thing is Literature.

[Jgib5328]

well not 'majoring' no - I live in England - we study only one subject at University - but yes, my degree is 'English Language and Literature'...although I don't know why they call it that - except for one term in the second year the whole thing is Literature.

Oh yeah in an American College we equate English with literature pretty much. Like you wouldn't be majoring in English here like you'd be majoring in Japanese or some foreign language. English based courses are all literature or writing.

[Provoker]

Good thread.

I don't think visualizing material is mandatory for reading comprehension in all cases.

If one is reading a Dostoevsky novel, it is so rich with details that your mind's eye can paint a very elaborate picture of what is going on.

But try doing this with Kant's Critique of Pure Reason or anything that is much more dry, abstract and conceptual. In this case, there is nothing concrete for the imagination to cling to. Instead, a more conceptual and abstract understanding is required to comprehend the material.

Thus, at the highest levels of abstraction the 'ability to visualize' is useless. Furthermore, if you try to visualize something that can only be conceptualized it can result in a superficial understanding of things. How do you visualize things like 'social capital'? It is something that cannot be observed by the mind's eye - it can only be understood or conceptualized.

[Merle]

actually I just thought about it and realized why - you can choose to specialize from your second year onwards...choosing course 2 - which is all Old English, Old Norse, Old Icelandic etc and is therefore basically a language course.
Obviously I didn't go down this route...and pretty much forgot that it existed.

With regards to visualizing when reading...I don't think I do consciously, but on a very fast and subconscious level I must because when I have to remember quotes...or am looking for a quote... I see it in m head as it looked on the page...both in terms of the words and the placement on the page.

[Zilal]

yeah, pretty much...for college I write two 2,000 word essays a week... for each I have to read all the primary texts (some of which I will have read before-hand)-so say I'm writing on 4 novels for each essay I'll probably have to read 2 for each because I've read the others... then for each essay I need to read at least 2-3 secondary texts...so that's between 8-10 books total..then there's journal articles on top of that...I don't have anything else to do...I don't have a job, reading those books is my job...so I read them during working hours.
I read books for my own enjoyment in the evenings before I go to sleep...

Holy cow, that's a lot. Of reading and writing. How do you like the stuff you have to read?

well not 'majoring' no - I live in England - we study only one subject at University -

That is intriguing... not sure what it means. Do you mean you don't have to take any math, science courses etc.?

[Merle]

For the most part, I love the stuff I have to read... I get a fair amount of choice in it...each term we study a period of about 100 years and within that I choose which authors I want to do. So you can be as obscure or stick as close to the canon as you want...

Yes, I study no maths, no science no nothing except English Literature for the entirety of my degree.

[ginandsour]

It has made for some interesting moments when I have first used a word that I have read but never spoken before. "Halcyon" is a fine example :-)

I do this even as an adult, but when I was a kid I would constantly use words "correctly" but grossly mispronounced them. My best one was hors d'oeuvres !

[SeaCzar]

I love/live to read. My house looks like a library, too; books everywhere. I have never got into fiction, though. I read The Financial Times and The Washington Post daily (print versions), and ususally have some 4-700 page piece of non-fiction waiting. Its a sad take on society when one is happier conversing with a book than people. By and large, but certainly not always, books are much more interesting.

[ElstonGunn]

I know it sounds cheesy but I really believe those slogans about how "knowledge is power". Personally, I think that ignorance, if anything, is the corrupting force.

Well, you know what they say. Knowledge is power. And power corrupts. ;)

Smartass remarks aside, I like your point of view, though. I think that there are few things more annoying (not to mention dangerous) than idiots with strong opinions.

[Jgib5328]

Do you guys have times where you just can't really focus on what you're reading? It may be because of some boredom I'm experiencing or something and no I do not have ADD or ADHD or anything like that.

[ElstonGunn]

Yeah, I get that sometimes. I'll read a paragraph or two, and I won't remember a single word of it. It's like auto-pilot for reading. I read every word, but I'm thinking about something completely unrelated, so there's no comprehension.

[Jgib5328]

Yeah, I get that sometimes. I'll read a paragraph or two, and I won't remember a single word of it. It's like auto-pilot for reading. I read every word, but I'm thinking about something completely unrelated, so there's no comprehension.

Yeah I hate when it happens. I have been trying to break when that happens.

[lordrrr]

I was a complete bookworm as a kid. I learned how to read by age 4 and could read chapter books by age 5 (when most kids stuggled with picture books). By age 6 I found reading incedibly easy, and was baffled by how most kids in my class couldn't even read picture books yet (this was first grade). I stopped reading about 4th grade and got sucked into games instead, then started in 7th grade but that ended the following summer, and since I have just been a gamer mainly. But now that I know I am an INTJ and that my mental strength is a gift I have become more and more into reading- I am currently reading 6 books. Only problem is I also have to study so it impedes my learning (when your schoolwork IMPEDES learning instead of accelerates it, you know your school system is F'ed).

[AgentofGaming]

I'm more into Computer games than books in general, because I like it more interactive.
Although I loved the informational books from the library when I was young.

I read a lot of newspaper/wiki/info articles but novels tend to be too long for me, and I'm afraid that if I start I might not get to the end. Then have that incompleteness feeling.

[integratedvelocity]

I also learned to read before I started school, and the pronunciation thing has definitely come up. French words are the bane of my existence! I don't really buy books (other than textbooks) because they don't last long enough for the investment. I can read several hundred pages of fiction per hour, up to 400 or 500. Nonfiction is considerably slower. And Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and anything philosophical takes even longer. I started War and Peace a few months ago while procrastinating on math review and was in shock from how long it took me to read the first 20 pages!

As far as reading technique, I very rarely say words in my head. If I do, they are words from all over the page that happened to stick out and I am still taking in other words while subvocalizing them (I think). I don't read straight down a page. If I could trace where my eyes go, it would be a random loopy shape. Sometimes I notice myself going through paragraphs from bottom to top or right to left.

[Aurelia]

Some people do it, many do not.

do you think there is a fundamental personality difference between people that read frequently and well, and people that do not?

I say this because in order to read and comprehend material, you must be able to visualize things mentally. Now, with Television, this is not necessary, and it seems many people never really develop this skill. Gratefully, we are moving into the internet realm, where many of these concerns are met.

Now, do some people just not have this ability, or do they not take enough time to learn it? It seems many people of normal intelligence, just do not have the ability, and I wonder if personality differences have something to do with it.

There are differences and the ability to visualize things mentally is one part of it. My husband for example (ISTJ) cannot visualize things in his head unless he has actually seen what it is that I am talking about. It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. My husband graduated from Yale with a 3.8 gpa. He's currently in his third year of medical school. His inability to visualize has a lot to do with his strong sensing preference rather than his intelligence level.

We have differences in the type of books we like to read. His choices tend towards practical sorts of books (ex. how to fix cars). My books (all 1,000 pounds of them -- very expensive to move from Hawaii) range from classic literature (one of my all time favorites is Anna Karenina from Leo Tolstoy) to the sciences. I get a tremendous amount of enjoyment from reading.

[Slaytanic]

This really depends on what i read. I could understand a brief history of time pretty ok. But there are books that even i struggle with or do not get at all. Examples, Paradise lost, the divine comedy, homer. This said i"m norwegian. So english is a second language for me. And those example books, are poems. And i"m really not that smart either. I have an average 120. Pretty low for an INTJ i think.

[Merle]

This really depends on what i read. I could understand a brief history of time pretty ok. But there are books that even i struggle with or do not get at all. Examples, Paradise lost, the divine comedy, homer. This said i"m norwegian. So english is a second language for me. And those example books, are poems. And i"m really not that smart either. I have an average 120. Pretty low for an INTJ i think.


I don't think 'Paradise Lost' is an easy book to read even when your first language is English! - the sentences are so convoluted and complex that I found myself re-reading pages 2 or 3 times to be able to follow the narrative - It took me a couple of weeks to get through it and that is a LONG time for me!