Tighter definitions of "trolling" and "baiting"?

[Monte314]

Mods:

I know it's OK to have a little "drama" in posts... but even I could begin to see after a couple of rounds that the two trollers here yesterday had nothing to offer except drama... and poor drama at that.

Even so, it never occurred to me to report either one, though in retrospect it does seem that would have been the correct action. ("kathy" was so pathetic I think people were getting a kick out of her frenzied blather....)

Are there any additional guidelines you can give us about when you think reports should be made? I know there can be no hard definitions... but I really don't know what to look for. I have made a couple of reports, but since there's never any feedback, I don't know whether these were helpful or not.

Suggestions?

[TheLastMohican]

They were certainly trolls (one by his own admission), but a strict reading of the rules doesn't produce much against them. Almost all trolls will make bona fide "personal attacks" before long, and that might have been what got them both banned (I don't know whether I saw their last posts).
I second your request, anyway. Watermelon was obvious, but cases like kathy's could benefit from a clear definition of "troll."

[stasis]

Generally speaking, we want to avoid steeping the forum rules and guidelines in meticulous subclauses or extensively stipulative language. While it may intuitively seem like a good idea, doing so has the unfortunate consequence of not only making those increasingly arcane rules and guidelines less accessible and therefore less useful to forum users, but, more significantly, the emphasis on documentary enables the practice of rules-lawyering. When the letter of a set of rules becomes more important than the spirit or the principle of those rules, it is often the case (on active internet forums) that those principles are readily eroded by malice. In addition, the more complicated and extensive a set of rules are, the more difficult it shall be for moderators to realistically manage their application. In essence, we do not believe sound judgment can be built effectively into a set of rules.


But if you are curious about what our thoughts on the subject are, the following is our working definition of trolling. From the moderator guide: Troll Posts
We define trolling within an existing thread as commentary consisting solely of meta-discussion that a) fails the topic, b) condescends to malign the character or otherwise distress the e-identities of a respondent or respondents to the thread, and c) has the primary effect of inviting forum rule-breaking responses to that tangent. The commentary must simultaneously exhibit all three of these characteristics, or presently exhibit the first two and be very likely in your estimation to produce the third.

What is meant by characteristic a is that the meta-discussion is disconnected from the subject put forth in an OP; so, in a thread about fat chix, the problematic commentary might be entirely about typology. What is meant by characteristic b is that the meta-discussion is implicitly assassinating of character or identity; so, in a thread about fat chix wherein the problematic commentary is presented in terms of typology, something like "A real INTJ wouldn't respond to me in manner x or y". What is meant by characteristic c is that the meta-discussion actually elicits responses that primarily run afoul of the forum rules and guidelines, either in kind to the troll post or in escalation to flaming and personal attacks.

Note carefully that the above describes only the act of trolling within an existing thread.


Troll Threads
The diagnostic criteria for 'troll thread', something in its entirety defined by the OP, would necessarily be somewhat different from that of 'troll post'. This is because the subject of a thread cannot, by definition, fail its own topic (characteristic a, above) and may legitimately have the effect of eliciting responses that primarily run afoul of the forum rules and guidelines (characteristic c, above), either because the subject is controversial or the responding users are misbehaving for some other reason.

Instead, the topic of such a thread must itself d) condescend to malign the character or otherwise distress the e-identities of a respondent or respondents to the thread, and e) contain little or no other merit. This would basically restrict the classification of 'troll threads' to non-support subjects dealing directly with the forum and its userbase. Not every such topic, but specifically topics within that category which simultaneously satisfy characteristics d and e. For example, non-support OPs that say little more than "this forum is infested with ISTJs" or "the moderators are incompetent."

Again, though, these are not strict rules that our mods follow. They are meant to be illustrative of a principle, part of the theory of moderation that Jezebel and I are developing, and that is what's salient. Individual posts and threads are dealt with according to their own contexts.

As to the question about when reports should be made, I should say that posts can be reported whenever you the user find those posts to be seemingly in violation of our forum rules and guidelines (http://intjforum.com/faq.php?faq=conduct#faq_rules). We greatly appreciate it when users take the time to report posts that concern them in this manner. It is not at all problematic for us to have a post reported that is ultimately going to be allowed to remain, so you needn't worry about reporting something you are uncertain about. When in doubt: go ahead and click report.

[Jezebel]

I just want to clarify why I made the post in kathy's thread in case it caused any confusion. My annoyance with the trolls not being reported was not with the members that did not recognize those members as trolling, but that there were so many members accusing those members of trolling in the thread without reporting them. We really don't want members accusing others of being trolls in threads at all as they are not moderators and it isn't their place to regulate other members, and it's often the case that members falsely accuse others of trolling when they find their viewpoints too provocative. But if someone is seriously concerned, they should report the posts or ignore them instead of responding and accusing others of trolling publicly in threads.

[stasis]

Ironically, accusing a user of trolling is a popular form of trolling.

[HackerX]

And if you're not sure, report it anyway. The worse that will happen is that we'll not agree and nothing gets done.

[TheLastMohican]

Thanks for the clarifications. I'll try to remember to report posts in the future.

[anamatria]

I just want to clarify why I made the post in kathy's thread in case it caused any confusion. My annoyance with the trolls not being reported was not with the members that did not recognize those members as trolling, but that there were so many members accusing those members of trolling in the thread without reporting them. We really don't want members accusing others of being trolls in threads at all as they are not moderators and it isn't their place to regulate other members, and it's often the case that members falsely accuse others of trolling when they find their viewpoints too provocative. But if someone is seriously concerned, they should report the posts or ignore them instead of responding and accusing others of trolling publicly in threads.

Sorry about not reporting! As a fairly new member, I wasn't aware how strict or not strict this group was for those types of posts.

Most forums just let it go, which is why I didn't say anything.

I'll be sure to give you a heads up next time I see something like that! :)

[HackerX]

See also, there's absolutely no "penalty" for being wrong. Too many reports is better than too few. There is also a tendency for those sorts of threads, even if they're not originally actionable to turn into bad threads. So doing so can work to give us a heads up to pay attention to various threads.

If you report something and nothing happens, that doesn't mean that nothing will happen. A lot of the moderation decisions get discussed. That also doesn't mean everything that gets reported will eventually get a visible response.

Some mods prefer you to report issues, some mods like getting PM'd. Either way is fine. I like the report button personally. It's also good, because moderators and admin tend to read reports in all forums, not just their own. If you think something needs a quick reaction, it's better to report it, since somebody will probably come across it faster.

And thus ends that little insight into moderating. Go nuts :)

[Synamon]

See also, there's absolutely no "penalty" for being wrong. Too many reports is better than too few.

If there were, I'd have been banned long ago. :laugh:

Ignoring a troll and not responding is the best revenge, all they are after is a reaction after all.

It really is simple to hit report and type in a few words about what was offensive about the post. There are more than 5000 posts made on the forum a week and a handful of moderators, so I think of it as my responsibility as member of the forum to give them a little help. Once you report it is out of your hands, but you did your part to keep this forum troll free and thriving.

[altoid]

Sorry about not reporting! As a fairly new member, I wasn't aware how strict or not strict this group was for those types of posts.

Most forums just let it go, which is why I didn't say anything.

I'll be sure to give you a heads up next time I see something like that! :)


He already said exactly what I was thinking. Now that I know, I'll be better about reporting those sorts of posts in the future.

[anamatria]

See also, there's absolutely no "penalty" for being wrong. Too many reports is better than too few. There is also a tendency for those sorts of threads, even if they're not originally actionable to turn into bad threads. So doing so can work to give us a heads up to pay attention to various threads.

If you report something and nothing happens, that doesn't mean that nothing will happen. A lot of the moderation decisions get discussed. That also doesn't mean everything that gets reported will eventually get a visible response.

Some mods prefer you to report issues, some mods like getting PM'd. Either way is fine. I like the report button personally. It's also good, because moderators and admin tend to read reports in all forums, not just their own. If you think something needs a quick reaction, it's better to report it, since somebody will probably come across it faster.

And thus ends that little insight into moderating. Go nuts :)

Sounds like a lot of work! Hats off to ya!

And I'm glad you guys are here... this forum is really awesome.