Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way!

[janonymous]

every description i've read about INTJs is that we're natural leaders...BUT we would rather assume a position as second in command until we feel that no one else is capable of doing the job better than ourselves.

so, are you the type that prefers to lead?
would you rather just follow?
or are you a total lone ranger?

i have a slight preference to follow because i really enjoy observing events unfold. yet, i'm not shy about taking charge whenever i feel like something is going wrong. while i'm willing to step up at times, i'd still much rather guide an extroverted leader because i find the social responsibilities very exhausting.

one thing that really annoys me is when other people in a group lock themselves in their BAD ideas. many times the final product is a train wreck because people close themselves off to better executions/evolutions of the idea they birthed. it's also equally irritating when people fear constructive criticism because they view it as an ad hominem attack, rather than polishing up the task at hand.

anyways, what role do you prefer to assume in group situations?

[Night]

every description i've read about INTJs is that we're natural leaders...BUT we would rather assume a position as second in command until we feel that no one else is capable of doing the job better than ourselves.

so, are you the type that prefers to lead?
would you rather just follow?
or are you a total lone ranger?



Although I am not interested in following anyone (as it pertains to a subservient perspective), I realize the difficulties this preference creates.

Occupationally, it is very likely that most will have a supervisor who works to ensure quality of one's personal performance against a standardized grading model. Servility is a presumed necessity, as financial output is hinged (for most) on their ability to reliably and efficiently follow orders.

Socially, I am unconcerned with broad trends. I do what I enjoy, and work to find time to incorporate activities that (can be) less than desirable, if only to occasionally satisfy those I care for. In this sense, duty and/or obedience is relative to one's level of respect towards those for whom he cares and could be thought of as a preservative enacted to increase the probability for the ultimate success of one's personal life.

Overall, I would say that the best measure of leadership is one's ability to realize the expectations of his system, and work to adapt his defenses so as to optimize personal achievement in relevant areas (which may or may not require leadership roles), while balancing the emotional anticipations of his family (when/if relevant).

[rwyatt365]

Because of positions I have held in the workplace I have been thrust into the leader/facilitator role. My preferred position is to be in the observer/consultant role, however. So, while I don’t prefer to be the leader, I know that I can operate effectively in that capacity.

It also irks me to no end when people blindly follow bad ideas, or "the conventional way" just because they are expected to. That's when a little voice in my head starts screaming, "What is WRONG with you people!", and I kick into "savior mode" (as in, "I've got to save these idiots from themselves"). Most times people don't appreciate this, and reel in terror from new ideas, or a paradigm shift. By I try it any way – mostly to none effect.

[Myrak]

I prefer to be 2nd in command until I feel something needs my guiding hands. I am much contented to sit back and watch things unfold until I see something heading down a war path, to which then I would proceed to steer it in a direction I see fit. Keeps things easier for everyone.

[Allie]

Naturual tendency is a lone ranger; then second in command, until necessary to lead.

[amei]

If someone else in the group would like to lead and can do a good job, then I am quite happy to let them. But if no one is would like to lead or if no one can do a good job, then I will usually try to step up and be the leader. Sometimes, my shyness and fear of angering people can get in the way of doing that, but other times I have the boldness and confidence to just take charge depending on the situation and the other people involved.

[OneBadMother]

I am definitely a lone ranger. I'll go around with things for the heck of it, but if something's at stake I'm not going to follow a dumb idea.

[logan235711]

I tend to create influence from the sidelines, so it's very oblivious to most as to how I affect things. But in the big picture I'm content to just follow and at times be a lone ranger doing my own things. Mostly because I have a good deal of things I am interested outside of work so I don't really mind much what goes on there. To be fair, it also matters which job I have. I could see myself having a job that lines up more with what I would be interested in outside of work, and in that sense I would probably take up a more active role in controlling how things unfolded.

[deicruxified]

so, are you the type that prefers to lead?

in a group, i want to be just an adviser than being the leader. or just be someone at the back end observing stuff. however, if the situation calls for it that i need to step up as a leader and if there's no choice then i'll take the lead.


would you rather just follow?
yep. definitely. accomplishing jobs are good but i hate the limelight. on the otherhand, i get jobs which i find feasible otherwise i drop it. i hate losing and bad ideas.

or are you a total lone ranger?
i do think so. i'm extremely picky. not only do i pick the person who would want to lead me or the group but i also pick the group as well. there might be a good leader but then you still have to consider your team mates. if, for instance, the leader is incompetent it's either i steer the wheel by hook or by crook or just leave the group and stash all his/her members away. on the otherhand, if the leader is good but the members are all assholes, i teach him/her how to handle them, i steer the wheel until everything seems better already or i advise him/her to drop the whole team and look for other people or just work with me.

-----

edit: i just observed among intj people i've been with that we intj's have a natural charisma. a friend of mine decided to run for the local youth elections not because he wanted to lead but a lot of people in his city see him a potential leader. so he gave it a shot and he won. the people wanted him to run again however he drops the offer now. i, on the otherhand was voluntold to be the operations head of our outdoor org but since there are already options for next year's election, i will pass the authority to someone else who i think would be competent enough to continue my vision.

deicruxified added, 25 Minutes and 14 Seconds later...


It also irks me to no end when people blindly follow bad ideas, or "the conventional way" just because they are expected to. That's when a little voice in my head starts screaming, "What is WRONG with you people!", and I kick into "savior mode" (as in, "I've got to save these idiots from themselves"). Most times people don't appreciate this, and reel in terror from new ideas, or a paradigm shift. By I try it any way – mostly to none effect.
yes. the savior mode. it just happened here in the workplace recently however, in my case, my colleagues were shocked because i was just new in the team but i already sniffed out my boss' bad moves. i studied the whole situation and tweaked whatever info i could find so that the situation would suit our side. we were always on debates to the point of even emailing him 101 reasons why his idea is bullshit (i'm serious, i did... and to add icing to his birthday cake, i also added his violations in logic and his fallacies). he never listened because he still has "the boss' ego" but when things turned up messy, he suddenly steals my idea... and everyone knows that it's mine and they're pissed off as well. the sad part of being an intj.

[janonymous]

he never listened because he still has "the boss' ego" but when things turned up messy, he suddenly steals my idea... and everyone knows that it's mine and they're pissed off as well. the sad part of being an intj.

sorry to hear that. i HATE it when people steal my ideas. i even hear/see people steal my jokes just so they can make themselves look better. if it wasn't for my quiet nature, i'd give them an ear-full.

[Ryokurin]

Due to the fact that I tend to easily dismiss or directly call out people who I know is not pulling their slack I tend to follow unless I start to see everything going to shit. I think its a big improvement over how I used to be and not say anything at all, but slowly stew on how bad everything is. The problem is however that I usually end up pissing everyone else off in the process, or worse doing it all by myself.

[Paul V]

"Get the hell out of my way. Now."

Pretty much what defines me. I'd rather work alone, since I really don't trust people to do their jobs (actually, I don't trust people. Period).

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm either second in command or quietly plotting how to do all the tasks in the group by myself in case somebody else screws up and doesn't do it.

I don't trust others to do their jobs correctly or even at all and always have the thought in the back of my head that I should do everything anyway, just in case.

I much prefer working alone, as if that wasn't obvious.

[The Many]

Usually I work alone, it's usually much easier to get things done when you don't have to deal with others' ideas. When I am involved with teamwork I tend to take a leader position though; I usually have goals which are way higher than the other team members and also usually the best plans to get there. Of course, my I score is usually pretty low too, which may explain some of my ENTJ:ish tendencies when involved with groups.

[niffer]

I am always the leader. Always. If I am not elected to be it immediately, it's because people are sitting silently unsure what to do, whereupon I take charge myself. Sometimes I decide not to be the leader, and see what happens. Things always get screwed up, deadlines ignored, main objectives forgotten, and order of proper procedure left totally unconsidered. Then, I step up to the plate, give people orders, and things eventually get back on track.

Whenever I am a leader, although I do delegate tasks evenly I usually give myself a slightly bigger workload than all the other members, otherwise I feel like a bastard..

[chocky]

It also irks me to no end when people blindly follow bad ideas, or "the conventional way" just because they are expected to. That's when a little voice in my head starts screaming, "What is WRONG with you people!", and I kick into "savior mode" (as in, "I've got to save these idiots from themselves"). Most times people don't appreciate this, and reel in terror from new ideas, or a paradigm shift. By I try it any way – mostly to none effect.

This sounds so much like my life at present! Leading the proverbial horse to water, then watching while it dies of thirst.

By nature I'm a lone ranger. I only took on a leadership role because I saw a need, and it was timely. But now I'm burnt out and depressed. I'm a poor leader because I expect others to be more intelligent and motivated than they are, then they prove to be human and I expect too much of myself to compensate.

You can't lead if no one will follow.

[Drayakir]

While I prefer working alone, if I am forced to work in a group (a collaborative project), I will either take charge as a leader, or I will take on the role of the administrator (which are somewhat similar).

[Sagacious]

Lone Ranger by choice.

I don't like to lead, but if (when?) the leadership is either so lacking as to be a hindrance, or is actively inept, then it's time to fight for leadership. (Or decide it isn't important and walk away - which is a very important skill, picking one's battles). Somewhat important detail: I do not believe that having a leader is always necessary.

I also wouldn't say "second in command". I want enough flexibility to do what I feel needs to be done; I dislike having to justify it but readily accept responsibility for those choices. So it would be better to describe the goal as an "independent command" - rank does not matter, so long as "authority" isn't breathing over my shoulder. Rank is useful only insofar as it keeps people off my shoulder!

[Thistle]

Is 'leadership' not a skill rather than an action of taking charge? I understand it to be about changing hearts and minds of people, raising the stakes and thereby, enhancing performance.

Authors on the subject, such as Goleman, have identified a number of different leadership roles that an individual can deploy. The trick is not in tying yourself down to one role but knowing when to use each role effectively.

One of these roles is that of 'coercive leader' - typically someone who has the authority to say 'do this', but others are not based on authority - which is why people can be leaders even if they are not officially in 'charge'. Therefore, someone can be a leader even if they are in the position of 'second in charge'.

Personally speaking, I am wary of an authoritative approach and instead much preferring to coach, develop people, build democracy. However, using so much 'f' (as to reach a decision democratically that is actually a 't' result) exhausts me.

[TruorTupnm]

Eh. Of course, I prefer to work alone. Anybody know of some decent jobs that involve such bliss? But I usually end up a follower because I don't care enough to lead. Seems like way too much dealing with people rather than whatever I should be working on. Pretty much all of the time, though, I am observing it all and working kinks in the system out gradually and quietly. In the past, I did things less quietly, but that would produce wide-eyed followers, which were annoying.

[The Rose]

I like the second in command position as well.
Not enough authority to take the blame if it flops.;)

[Kfbr]

I prefer leading, right now it's only in a college environment though. Over the years there has been enough inefficiency and "cheerleader" types in charge so I stepped up. I take the silent and forceful charge of class groups, and I serve in the student government.

I turn heads all the time with my outspoken ideas, leadership style and uncompromising resolve. My leadership style is basically, "here are the walls of the playpen, go nuts." If the shit hits the fan, go for it and let it fall on me. I don't care about taking flak, I know it doesn't bother me like it bothers others.

However, once I'm back in a professional environment, I'll be back to my "silent guiding hand" second in command mode until I've mastered it and can be the best for leadership roles.

[Hypomanic]

If I have to I'll lead, I'd prefer not to though. I think I'm too good at it, and I get nothing out of it. I'm not a follower. So I guess mainly I'm 'independent'.

[Laura_Palmer]

My leadership style is basically, "here are the walls of the playpen, go nuts."
Haha, that's a great way to put it!

In group situations I don't normally volunteer to be the leader, but it always seems like the other members choose me to be. If someone else wants to be the leader, I'm normally "second in command." I don't mind either position as long as the goal is being reached in an effective and efficient way.

[quentin]

The problem is that most people aren't independent enough to think - I mean, truly think - or do things by themselves. It's annoying. I expect other people to be more like me: able to intuitively figure things out for themselves. But most of the time they can't, and that's only when I will reluctantly assume a leadership position. I'd prefer neither to lead nor follow, but register as a GDI (Goddamn Independent).

[mielikki]

I am a great wing-man, XO or what have you.
I will take the lead if needed, or go out on my own to achieve my manager's goals, but I really don't mind being in more of a supporting position.

I am not a great "follower" - as in one of the seething masses. I like to be in a position of influence and decision-making, but not necessarily the one that takes the fall :-)

My present Manager is a dream. She's a PhD and a Six Sigma black belt. She does not micromanage. She gives me a task and tells me to go nuts on it. She throws all sorts of krapp in my direction and tells me to deal. She tells me that she likes the fact that she doesn't show me what to do, train me and then I do it - rather, she tells me what needs to be done, and I go learn how to do it. She is also single-minded, driven and frequently rude. God, I respect that. And it is a perfect professional relationship for me. I am allowed to be who I need to be, and I don't have to worry about steamrolling or intimidating anyone.

Damned shame I've been downsized and will be out of work in 3 weeks.....:-(

[janonymous]

thanks everyone for the interesting responses. it seems that the most common characteristic of us INTJs is the need for a lot of autonomy regardless of what role we prefer to assume.

let me throw something else into the mix:

- Have you ever been in a position where giving up your individuality and becoming an unquestioning follower has proven to help more than being so autonomous?
- Do you even consider blindly following as an option?

[Nomad]

Yup, When for whatever reason I'm tired of my boss, I stop covering and I do what I'm told. Then, when asked, I say I just did what my manager told me. Eventually my supervisor will be on unemployment. It's a useful technique when you want to give someone enough rope to hang themselves. I working on this project right now at work.

-Nomad

[The Rose]

thanks everyone for the interesting responses. it seems that the most common characteristic of us INTJs is the need for a lot of autonomy regardless of what role we prefer to assume.

let me throw something else into the mix:

- Have you ever been in a position where giving up your individuality and becoming an unquestioning follower has proven to help more than being so autonomous?
- Do you even consider blindly following as an option?Yes. It's a lot less mental work.

[rwyatt365]

- Have you ever been in a position where giving up your individuality and becoming an unquestioning follower has proven to help more than being so autonomous?
- Do you even consider blindly following as an option?
I tried it, I didn't like it.

I worked retail for 9 months (out of necessity, not by choice). For that retailer there is no "individuality", there is only "the company way". Practically everything done by the salespeople is scripted and tightly controlled. I fought it at first, but when it became a choice between being "me" and eating, I chose to eat. I could feel myself becoming more "dronelike" every day. :stunned: But I got so good at it that I became a manager - which turned out to be even worse. Not only did I become a higher level drone, I had to enforce the drone mentality on the staff. :stunned::stunned:

Thank goodness I found another job!

[Paul V]

thanks everyone for the interesting responses. it seems that the most common characteristic of us INTJs is the need for a lot of autonomy regardless of what role we prefer to assume.

let me throw something else into the mix:

- Have you ever been in a position where giving up your individuality and becoming an unquestioning follower has proven to help more than being so autonomous?
- Do you even consider blindly following as an option?

- Yes. I hated every minute of it, but I had to do it. It was for the ultimate good.
- No, unless it's an area in which I have minimal expertise. In that case, I'll follow, but with my eyes wide open.

[Solnath]

"Lead, follow or get out of the way? I obstruct."

Depends wholly on the situation. If I'm interested, I take full command. If I'm not, count me out. There are certain situations where I take a position that grants me power should I choose to use it, just so I can make things work my way if I ever feel the need to.

[danalaina]

- Have you ever been in a position where giving up your individuality and becoming an unquestioning follower has proven to help more than being so autonomous?
- Do you even consider blindly following as an option?

i didn't use to. then i discovered that allowing the yapping mass at my heels to take the lead on projects i don't care about freed me up to do what i want. i learned to pick my battles better, i guess.

becoming a follower in these situations really only means nodding and smiling at the right time - something we do well anyhow. and i look like a team player. bonus.

[quentin]

nodding and smiling at the right time - something we do well anyhow.

When my boss or anybody tells me how or what to do something, that's what I always do. I don't say anything or disagree, I just nod and smile. On the rare occasion that the advice is good and useful, I'll do it their way. But most of the time I'll just pretend to agree and then go back to doing things my way.

[Bonnie]

I detest the idea that I may be a follower. To feel like the sheep I see in some parts of society makes me retch. But I feel I can't lead because the responsibility is too much, so I try to assume second-in-command - I can still feel special, but it's not all on me when something goes badly wrong.

That's pretty cowardly, when I think about it. But then again, few people ask me to lead and I hate trying to vie for the top spot. I'd rather give it up and just come in when my skills or social position is needed. I try the lone ranger position...but I value feeling part of a group or team.