The Perfect INTJ Mate [Archive]

OrrDavey

12-13-2008, 11:09 AM

Alright here goes nothing. This will be really blunt and to the point, just like you asked!

1. Mentally she is intelligent, but not smarter than me. She has her own opinions and questions the way things are or should be. But isn't completely nuts about it. Then some of the normal things: Loyal, Honest, Trusting - I am probably forgetting a few really obvious ones here.

2. Temperamentally she is very calm, quiet and relaxed.

3. Physically she is in shape and looks like a woman. I am not completely neurotic over physical size, but I wouldn't consider being with someone who was significantly overweight. She likes to wear feminine clothes. She doesn't have a guy's haircut and doesn't have excessive tattoos or piercings.

4. She is not very emotional at all, but is a little bit more emotional than I am (not hard).

5. She has a high sex drive, but is most happy being with one partner. I am.

6. Goals. She is educated and wants to work, but also wants to start a family some day.

7. Lifestyle. She likes to stay in more often than not. Is fairly conservative and traditional. But then again, she'd like to travel to some new place once a year, and go out and do something amazing once or twice a month.

8. Household - She wants to have a more traditional family. She would want one partner to be a stay at home parent and home maker - probably her. By the time we decided to start a family we would already have our own business. This would allow both her and me to be active in it managing it, even if one of us was a stay at home parent.

9. Interaction. We should just mesh well, which is way too hard to describe in a box like this.

Ok there you go. The bold, blunt truth on what my current expectations of a partner are.

Edit: Ok this would be a big plus, too. hahahahaha.

As much as I like to get dressed up, clothes can also be irritating to me- if I'm going to be really concentrating on some kind of very still work, particularly if I'm drawing or painting - I don't like to sit properly in a chair for long, and clothes can be binding- so I sometimes will start out stripping down to my underwear or just putting on a bathing suit.

dissident

12-13-2008, 11:12 AM

hmmm... this is a toughie.. someone who doesn't take the world too seriously, someone who's not a control freak and who knows how to live and let live.. someone who has a strong intuitive side, and likes to speculate about existence, and doesn't mind talking about things that normal people would think you are strange talking about, somebody who notices the little things, and appreciates them rather then taking them for granted. Ideally she would probably have to be extroverted, to lift the burden of trying to start conversation off of me, but not to extroverted she needs every minute of her day filled with activity. Someone who likes to live simple and isn't really ambitious and career driven.. doesn't mind living in an older home, or perhaps a shack in the mountains... someone gentle, and honest. No games, just openness. Someone who knows how to think outside the societal box and is capable of having an open mind.

I'd say an eNFP would probably fit my bill... the stronger the N, the better.

dalidaisy

12-13-2008, 11:28 AM

Here's my list...

He:
*doesn't mind that I'm 6ft tall
*likes kids
*doesn't mind that I don't eat animals
*is intelligent
*loves to laugh
*is honest & open
*is not emotionally needy
*has similar morals as me
*is adventurous
*can keep up with me
*can provide suggestions if I am indecisive or unsure
*will give me my space when I need it
*can tolerate my views, yet challenge me for intelligent discussion
*laughs at my sometimes lame, but always silly jokes
*understands that I am not like most girls
*appreciates my beauty with or without embellishment
*can let me be right when I actually am
*shows me new things
*helps me be a better me

I'm sure this list could get exhaustingly long if I continued. It's really irrelevant what the person does for a living (unless they kill animals for a living, that would be a deal breaker). Physically I prefer tall, dark & handsome, someone strong who can carry me to the bed. Sexually, I need someone who with a healthy libido & no hang ups. Someone who can be soft & gentle at times, but also sick & demented at others. Oh, and he has to like music...

Did I leave anything important out?

rara avis

12-13-2008, 12:17 PM

Ooh, these are good!

and @ orrdavey: HEY! :rolleyes: Smartass!
(geez, did that quote sound that bad in context??)

Kisai

12-13-2008, 01:12 PM

The two criteria I used when judging whether or not to marry my wife was that she was:

1)A good person.
2)Sane.

I figured I could do worse.

Lucid

12-13-2008, 03:47 PM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

Anona Miss

12-13-2008, 03:54 PM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

I was wondering if I was the only who picked up on that. I am hoping his is the minority view. Surely (hopefully!) most men don't feel that way.

FLINTJm

12-13-2008, 04:17 PM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

I don't feel that way, but here's the thing about that. I can give a good guess on the magnitude of how much less intelligent someone is than me. I can't do the same with smarter types. Given that, I might even prefer smarter than me.

I might add to my list later.

OrrDavey

12-13-2008, 04:25 PM

I couldn't explain to you why. It is probably not a deal breaker, it is just something I prefer.

Would you prefer a guy who is taller than you, all else being equal?

Lucid

12-13-2008, 04:30 PM

I couldn't explain to you why. It is probably not a deal breaker, it is just something I prefer.

Would you prefer a guy who is taller than you, all else being equal?

Most women do. I think it's because socially they think it looks funny otherwise. I prefer men who are about the same size I am (I'm short) because it makes many activities (such as kissing and also arguing) easier.

But requiring that a guy be taller than a female seems kind of silly, and requiring that a female be less intelligent than you are seems strange, especially since intelligence is hard to see and often hard to gauge. The only people likely to know are the two involved in the relationship and probably their close friends.

I require that someone I date is smart, but if he's a little less intelligent than I, or a little more intelligent, it's ok. There plenty of room for variation.

I just picked up on it because you didn't just say intelligent, but qualified it by adding that she should not be more intelligent than you. And it seems that many men share this preference, while most women only require that a male is intelligent and don't add the "but not more intelligent than me" qualifier. So I wondered. I'm not trying to tell you should prefer women to be smarter than you, or equally smart or whatever. I'm just wondering why you prefer them to be less intelligent and why most men do.

For women of above-average intelligence it's kind of difficult and disheartening.

dalidaisy

12-13-2008, 04:39 PM

I couldn't explain to you why. It is probably not a deal breaker, it is just something I prefer.

Would you prefer a guy who is taller than you, all else being equal?

I hear you. I prefer someone not smarter than me. I don't know why. Maybe it's a control issue or maybe I don't like feeling inferior. I've never known a man smarter than me, though, so I wouldn't rule it out until I try it, I guess.

It is hard for me to find men taller than me. At 6ft tall, most men look me in the eye. Most men who are taller than me, strangely enough, like tiny girls. I would LOVE to date a man taller than me for a change. I'd just like to look up at him and have him look down at me.

noueux

12-13-2008, 05:23 PM

I think I kind of get where OrrDavey's coming from. If I went for a mathematician, I'd want him or her to be in a completely different research area then wherever I wind up. It's part of me keeping some intellectual space for myself. It's too easy to fall into competition with your peers, and I can't see that I'd be good at leaving that at the office when we went home.

That said, I think whoever I'd wind up with would have his or her area of expertise as well, because I'm selfish and would want to learn from my partner at least as much as I'm willing to offer, knowledge-wise. I don't think I could be with someone I thought was, all around, less intelligent than I was, because while I try very hard to give a certain measure of respect to everyone, I have to have a LOT of respect for someone in order to open to him or her emotionally, and for that I'd have to respect someone's intellect.

And Lucid- Definitely hear you on that general attitude being rather disheartening, but I have met some men who like strong, smart women, no qualifications. And while I love them to death, and think they're awesome, I can't pass any kind of judgment on other people's preferences. Lord knows I have enough of my own.

My prospective future partner would have to be pretty evenly tempered, and would have to learn how to calm me down quickly when I get angry. My best friend Kevin can stop me from yelling and have me discussing my anger rationally in two minutes flat. Oh, yeah. He or she would also have to be cool with Kevin. He's kind of part of the package.

They'd have to be able to get me down off of my high horse. But we'd probably wind up establishing boundaries and rules about appropriate and relevant criticism, because I can get pretty biting sometimes, and it's not always constructive.

Physical appearance is almost completely irrelevant. I don't know why, but somehow my opinion of a particular person's attractiveness is subjective, at the whim of how attractive I find their personality. I've thought people were pretty hideous before, and completely changed my mind when I got to know them, and, similarly, I've been attracted to people, found out they're assholes, and wondered what it is I liked about their appearance at all.

As for sex, I wouldn't want someone with an extremely high sex drive, been there, done that, had too much other stuff to do to have sex all the time. Would have to be willing to try new things, and to leave all their rote notions of This Is How People Have Sex at the door.

Ideally, I'd like someone more emotionally in touch than I am. But not too emotional, that would just aggravate me. I have very little patience for emotional displays, I'd need someone who could explain well what they were feeling and why. Maybe this will change with age (I don't really think so).

In addition, I have some pretty strong moral positions when it comes to equality, diversity, and respect, and I couldn't see myself having too good a relationship with someone who wasn't on the same page with me.

Sometimes I think my standards are too high and I'll end up alone. Then I shrug it off, because I'd rather be alone and happy than with someone who I didn't actually like very much.

rara avis

12-13-2008, 06:27 PM

dalidaisy

12-13-2008, 06:33 PM

I think I may have a different version of gender double standard than OrrDavey- I'm not sure I'd want a man to be more emotional than I am, largely because it just doesn't seem masculine to me. :uneasy:

Maybe not a deal breaker- I can imagine slight exceptions- I just want a man who's a tough nut to crack, that way. (Though of course I do want him to crack for me...)

As for intelligence, I certainly wouldn't want him to be any dumber than I. I need to be wowed that way. A different brand of intelligence than mine might appeal to me, though- more math/science oriented.

I agree with you on both points. I don't like emotional, needy men. I want a man to be a MAN!

As for intelligence, I think you say it best. Not dumber, but maybe smart where I'm not. I definitely want someone who I can have conversations with. I would like someone who I can learn things from & who wants to learn things from me...

Lucid

12-13-2008, 06:37 PM

noueux

12-13-2008, 06:47 PM

From my totally subjective perspective, being smart is as unfeminine as being emotional is unmasculine. Women are supposed to be weak of mind and body, so they can be protected by men, just as men are supposed to be too strong and powerful to care that much about the children.

Which brings me to something I forgot on my list- Complete and utter disdain for predetermined gender roles.

OrrDavey

12-13-2008, 06:52 PM

Another thing to think about is that when you say, "I'd want my man to be at least as smart as me." you are basically fulfilling what I said about intelligence, just from the other side of the fence.

rara avis

12-13-2008, 06:55 PM

Well... I am not exactly in the habit of defending OrrDavey's views on the laydees... :laugh:

...but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable dating someone who's much better looking than I am. It'd make me feel a little insecure, I think, and it's an area I would really love to be appreciated for. I want to be someone's hot wife, not have anyone (especially him) ever wonder what he's doing with me in that respect, and I really don't want to have to struggle to hold my own, there. (The grooming BS is hard enough work as it is- yet important to me.)

Could be the same for him, with the smarts.

Undead Bonzi

12-13-2008, 07:38 PM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

I'm an INTP so my opinion really doesn't count on an INTJ Perfect mate thread but my goal is to find a girl smarter than me. Why? Because every relationship I see ends up with the girl having a lot of 'pussy whipping' control over decisions. If this is the case why would I want some airhead bimbo making the calls? If the girl is going to have some form of shared command decision control then she better be more qualified than me to make them.

Also on a practical note if I eliminated the girls who were smarter than me from contention my only viable population groups left to chose from would be the mentally retarded and sorority ho's...and since I don't want any VD's that just leaves the mentally retarded.

Anona Miss

12-13-2008, 07:45 PM

It is hard for me to find men taller than me. At 6ft tall, most men look me in the eye. Most men who are taller than me, strangely enough, like tiny girls. I would LOVE to date a man taller than me for a change. I'd just like to look up at him and have him look down at me.

I've noticed this too. I'm 5'2" and with one exception, I have never dated anyone less than 6 feet tall. It's not like I prefer tall men. I realy have no preference in that department. It just seems to be taller men that ask me out.

As for the intelligence thing, I never thought of intelligence as a masculine nor a feminine trait, simply a desirable one. As long as a man meets a certain threshold, that works for me. He and I may be of a similar level of intelligence, or he may somewhat higher or lower...as long as he is not significantly lower. What that level is, however, I can't quantify. It's like Justice Stewart said about pornography, "I know it when I see it."

Now as for the overly emotional man....I was in a relationship with one once. I ended up feeling like I was the man a lot of the time. That's not a good feeling.

BlackOp

12-13-2008, 07:49 PM

Can I assume that in "good" you're talking about "pretty little straps around her ankles", not Dansko clogs?

Oh, and also kindness and Paris-resistance?

I like a cool set of sneakers....clogs..not so much. I have a thing for red toenails.....beat up levis and smart kicks. I'd love to date a woman smarter than me...but being thrifty with the numbers, the odds are against it. They hide under the couch and dont come out when you call them.. My intuition comes from dark alleys...so a bookworm would be interesting. The scumbag, corrupted artist/drunkard and the uptight, repressed intellectual....sounds like a sitcom.

Am I the only intj that doesnt particually like to read...I've had "The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature"-Jung on my night stand for a month. Its only 148 pages. :laugh: I have enough things to think about already...the answers I'm looking for have never been written.

rara avis

12-13-2008, 07:52 PM

Now as for the overly emotional man....I was in a relationship with one once. I ended up feeling like I was the man a lot of the time. That's not a good feeling.

Hm, it takes a lot of man to make me feel feminine, sometimes- particularly personality-wise. He'd need every advantage there he can get.

Physical size and, um, "oomph" matters to me quite a bit, in that respect. Bulk, I guess is the word I'm looking for? The muscular/bone structure kind.

No, I did not particularly mean that kind of bone, thanks, I know what you're thinking.

noueux

12-13-2008, 08:04 PM

I have enough things to think about already...the answers I'm looking for have never been written.

Sometimes I think this, and then I pick up a book whose text is hundreds of years old, and find (maybe not the answers) but similar questions and postulations. It's a weird feeling to have a 17th century philosopher put into words some vague feeling you've been trying to pin down for weeks. I swear to God, when I read La Princesse de Clèves, I kept looking over my shoulder to see if Mme de Lafayette was lurking the shadows, taking notes.

noueux added to this post, 1 minutes and 21 seconds later...

I was in a relationship with one once. I ended up feeling like I was the man a lot of the time. That's not a good feeling.

I like switching back and forth. And, to an extent, I find comfort in my robotic nature. Even if I were dating a man, I think I'd still want him to be more emotional than me.

rara avis

12-13-2008, 08:12 PM

I like a cool set of sneakers....clogs..not so much. I have a thing for red toenails.....beat up levis and smart kicks. I'd love to date a woman smarter than me...but being thrifty with the numbers, the odds are against it. They hide under the couch and dont come out when you call them.. My intuition comes from dark alleys...so a bookworm would be interesting. The scumbag, corrupted artist/drunkard and the uptight, repressed intellectual....sounds like a sitcom.

Am I the only intj that doesnt particually like to read...I've had "The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature"-Jung on my night stand for a month. Its only 148 pages. :laugh: I have enough things to think about already...the answers I'm looking for have never been written.

LOL, I like a man who likes an uptight, repressed intellectual.

I think there's too much pleasure to be had in books to waste time trying to force one down when you're not into it. When I find myself in that position with a book, I'll set it aside so I don't ruin it- maybe I'll be in the right zone to take it in more graciously later on. In the meantime, there's plenty else to read...

Ooh, that's one to add to my list- Must Love Books. Or at least be exceedingly agreeable about them.

Otherwise he'll be really bored sitting in the car when I have to find and enter every used/antiquarian shop when visiting a new town.

BlackOp

12-13-2008, 08:42 PM

Sometimes I think this, and then I pick up a book whose text is hundreds of years old, and find (maybe not the answers) but similar questions and postulations. It's a weird feeling to have a 17th century philosopher put into words some vague feeling you've been trying to pin down for weeks. I swear to God, when I read La Princesse de Clèves, I kept looking over my shoulder to see if Mme de Lafayette was lurking the shadows, taking notes.

Well....thats what I was getting at. I'm not sure I require reading something that just makes this experience more confusing. It nice to know someone else has thought about the same things but it doesnt change anything. Its all speaking the same language really. I think my philosophy days are over. I did enjoy "A Confederacy of Dunces" though....absurdly funny.

OK back to the original topic.......

BlackOp added to this post, 23 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Otherwise he'll be really bored sitting in the car when I have to find and enter every used/antiquarian shop when visiting a new town.

Dont worry hunnie..they have a Eames section. ;)

Lucid

12-13-2008, 11:01 PM

Another thing to think about is that when you say, "I'd want my man to be at least as smart as me." you are basically fulfilling what I said about intelligence, just from the other side of the fence.

You should re-read my post carefully and check to make sure I say that I want someone at least as smart as me. It seems, right now, that you haven't read what I said very closely.

BlackOp

12-14-2008, 01:10 AM

LOL, I like a man who likes an uptight, repressed intellectual.

I bet you do...putty in the devil's hands. :p

edit...read that wrong. I thought you said " I like a man who IS an uptight, repressed intellectual. :)

Arminius

12-14-2008, 06:58 AM

This is ideal for me:

Level-headed(this should hopefully head off a few fights, and will help if we are ever in crisis situation)
Well educated/intelligent(don't want to have to end up thinking for both of us, besides, if she is clever, she might be able to give me good advice on things)
Sexy, but with good taste(I like classy women, not trashy women)
Decent sex drive, maybe a little kinky(no point in having sexy wife if you don't get to enjoy it)
Has similar taste in music/movies/art (or possibly introduces me to new variants of those that I end up enjoying)
Frugal(I'm a cheapskate, and admire this trait in others)
Orderly(disorder really bugs me)
Similar values/morals(this will prevent much squabbling and unhappiness)
Practical(this may be subset of intelligence requirement, but I would like my girl to inhabit the same planet as me)

In general my idea of sexy is slightly shorter than me, curvy, with fair skin, dark hair, and green eyes. This is obviously not set in stone, and I find many girls who don't match this to be very hot also. As far as the combo of personality traits goes, haven't yet found a girl with all of them, but there are 6 billion people infesting this planet, I'm sure there is a girl somewhere who matches.

rara avis

12-14-2008, 09:06 AM

...As far as the combo of personality traits goes, haven't yet found a girl with all of them, but there are 6 billion people infesting this planet, I'm sure there is a girl somewhere who matches.

Ah, the pure romance of the INTJ. I hold similar infestation-related hopes close to my heart.

Excellent list.

rara avis added to this post, 11 minutes and 12 seconds later...

Another thing to think about is that when you say, "I'd want my man to be at least as smart as me." you are basically fulfilling what I said about intelligence, just from the other side of the fence.

On the intelligence front, I do want a man to hold his own as an intelligent partner. I shudder to think of making life decisions with someone who requires yards of explanations, or who just needs to be led by the hand too often- forget about trying to make dinner conversation.

I'm not worried about ending up with someone less intelligent, I think I'd break up (or murder them) out of frustration before we evvver got to the altar.

My parents get along well this way- I believe they are equally highly intelligent. When it comes to planning, goals, character, lifestyle, they keep up with each other, no problem.

There are other more peripheral topics where you might sometimes swear one of them was actually a moron, after all- but that's where one does chip in with their strengths to help the other out.

It's interesting, they're alternately similar and complimentary in most of the exact right ways. That may have something to do with learning each other over 35 years of marriage though, too, I suppose.

Tyrant Soup

12-14-2008, 11:48 AM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

Probably because of evolutionary psychology. Men like to feel like the protector and provider. Brain power has replaced physical strength as the tools for acquiring and defending resources.

Intelligence is a vague concept so there would have to be a BIG discrepancy before it is clearly noticeable. I think the feeling of incompatibility would be mutual under these circumstances.

Personally, I'm most attracted to a woman who is close to being my equal.

ElstonGunn

12-14-2008, 11:59 AM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

I have that preference for three reasons. None of the reasons aren't all that good, though.

First, I've always been the smart guy. I'd probably call it one of my most noticeable traits. It would be nice if a woman liked that about me, which to me implies (but by no means guarantees) that she'd like not so much that I'm smart, but rather than I'm smarter than her. Like if I see a guy run really fast, it's not his speed itself that impresses me as much as it is that he's so much faster than I could be.

The extension of this point (and the part where I think you'd disagree the most) is that if she were smarter than I am, it would take away from what I said was one of my strongest traits. So instead of being the smart guy, now I'm just some crotchety jerk who suddenly doesn't seem so smart.

The second reason for why I'd prefer to be smarter than the woman I'm with is because I think of smartness as being tied to the ability to provide, which is something I'd like to do.

The third reason is that I think of intelligence in two broad categories: booksmarts and emotional intelligence. Odds are, she'd be better than me with emotional things, and I'd prefer it that way (since I buy into the fallacy that emotionalness is connected to femininity). So if she's got that covered, I'd like to have the other half of it be my strong suit.

They're not great reasons, but they're there.

Lucid

12-14-2008, 12:09 PM

They're not great reasons, but they're there.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should feel differently about it than they do. Odds are, even if they wanted to, they couldn't change it. I just wonder why it is.

So thank you for explaining. :)

Acextreme

12-14-2008, 10:07 PM

Haha, I don't mind the gal being slightly smarter than I am, if she can, that is. In fact, I AM looking for one who would be able to hold a decent intellectual debate with me. Alas, that's not something that's easy to find. But I aren't too worried about a gal being smarter than me by too much, that's almost hardly possible at all. :p Sorry, not trying to boast about my intellect or what, but if you really want to know, I personally feel that being too smart can actually be a "flaw" in itself; it's really lonely not to be able to have someone you like to understand what you are saying such that you don't have to explain everything you say.

What then happens would be boring conversations or having to intentionally dumb down your intellectual discussion into biteable pieces fit for instant chewing. If done indelicately, she could mistakenly perceive that I am patronizing her especially if she knows my "true" level of intelligence. On the other hand, if I went too fast ahead, she could also perceive along the line of "ok, so are you trying to prove you are way smarter than I am". Sigh.

And one last thing on this intelligence thing, it seemingly appears that because of this rather large intellectual parity, they are so uncomfortable talking to me. They might have felt, in some ways, inferior. Sharks, I don't like people to talk to me in that "oh, my lord, I humbly come before you and request for your attention to..." kind of manner, it just furthers the distance between us even more. I want to be able to talk on equal terms. I want the gal that I like to be comfortable around me, not feel inferior around me.

So, the qualities I am looking for then are actually quite undemanding, if I would say:

(1) Intelligent enough to be able to be around me without any sense of inferiority.
(2) Loving, caring and faithful to me, able to lead me on emotional aspects.
(3) Rational and independant; don't need emotional maintenance from me.
(4) Decent in looks; I am not looking to marry a model, just someone pretty enough and not too thin nor plump.
(5) Trust me

Scarlet Cake

12-16-2008, 11:48 AM

intuitive
introverted
nonconformist
nonmaterialistic
appreciates a sarcastic humor
hates the same things as me

ATCGs

12-16-2008, 12:16 PM

Hmmm. This is all predicated on the assumption that I actually know what would be best for me. Big assumption.
-At least as smart as I am. For many reasons, mainly, we need to be operating on the same level. (I don't think I would want an out and out genious/luminary/savant, since they tend to also be (apparently) very eccentric).

-Economical with words. More and more I've come to realise the enormous appreciation I have for people who can say what they mean without rambling. Most importantly, she wouldn't repeat herself. Nothing irks me more than being told something I already know.

-Capable of seeing both sides of an argument. It isn't uncommon for very smart people to be unable to see both sides of an argument. This makes real debate very difficult.

-Able to appreciate my very odd sense of humor, and, likewise, possessing a sense of humor I can appreciate.

-To me, physically attractive. My parameters for physical attraction are certainly not close to the norm... I know it when I see it.

I confess to not spending a great deal of time figuring out what qualities my ideal mate would be.

AliTree

12-17-2008, 04:06 PM

well, ENFP and INFP males seem to fit me best, if i could just get them to settle with just me....or me instead of no one. ha.

laid-back; more feeling then me but still hold a very strong [T]hinking streak; be able to hold long interesting and random conversations with me about anything and everything; me not have to take care of them emotionally (seems to be almost all male relationships i get involved in though...); preferably thin/lean muscle, taller then me, half mexican or azn or indian and half white (ha); has a very low to no sex drive; understands/appreciates dark, sarcastic, dry, satirical humor; isn't arrogant; knows good music.

ta-da! perfect guy for Ali-Tree. :]

Kisai

12-17-2008, 04:09 PM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

Not me. If I was 'involved' with a female who was smarter than me ('cause I don't know any ...*ducks Lucid's shoe*) it would spur me to study and train harder.

Also OrrDavey said this:

5. She has a high sex drive, but is most happy being with one partner. I am.

I like my sex drive, but if I had someone diving on me all the time when I was trying to do work or study, it would make me unhappy, but worse, it would make her unhappy. I'd rather she find some friends to have sex with and rotate me in there sometimes.

Acextreme

12-17-2008, 09:44 PM

has a very low to no sex drive;

ta-da! perfect guy for Ali-Tree. :]

WHAT! Did I read wrongly or did you mistype it? Very low to no sex drive? Then what's the point of finding a guy if you don't want sex? You would be better off with girls...or are you looking for gays? :suspicious:

I like my sex drive, but if I had someone diving on me all the time when I was trying to do work or study, it would make me unhappy, but worse, it would make her unhappy. I'd rather she find some friends to have sex with and rotate me in there sometimes.

Huh? You REALLY don't mind her having sex with other guys? :stunned: Gosh, too liberal? :suspicious:

Jinxu

12-18-2008, 11:43 AM

Haha, I don't mind the gal being slightly smarter than I am, if she can, that is. In fact, I AM looking for one who would be able to hold a decent intellectual debate with me.
Personally, I prefer a girl that less intelligent than I am but can still hold her own. I want someone that I can have fun and relax with more than having deep conversation. Every once in a while is okay. If I have job that require doing a lot of critical thinking and intellectual debating, the last thing I want at home is more of it. I want my home to be peaceful.

Jinxu added to this post, 829 minutes and 22 seconds later...

well, ENFP and INFP males seem to fit me best, if i could just get them to settle with just me....or me instead of no one. ha.

laid-back; more feeling then me but still hold a very strong [T]hinking streak; be able to hold long interesting and random conversations with me about anything and everything; me not have to take care of them emotionally (seems to be almost all male relationships i get involved in though...); preferably thin/lean muscle, taller then me, half mexican or azn or indian and half white (ha); has a very low to no sex drive; understands/appreciates dark, sarcastic, dry, satirical humor; isn't arrogant; knows good music.

ta-da! perfect guy for Ali-Tree. :]

Okay. So if we were to go out, what do you have to offer??? ;)

Tahte

12-18-2008, 04:37 PM

My dream hubby is intelligent, secure in himself, honest, mature and holds similar beliefs and interests. He knows when to be serious, but can also be goofy. He's romantic, but not clingy/needy. He neither has nor wants kids.

Outside, he's tall (6 ft or more). English accent would be nice. Glasses a plus.

Franklin71

12-18-2008, 04:50 PM

My idea mate would be just like me. Except female. And when we eventually kill each other, the explosion will take out 20 city blocks. It'll be beautiful.

rara avis

12-18-2008, 04:51 PM

I bet you do...putty in the devil's hands. :p

edit...read that wrong. I thought you said " I like a man who IS an uptight, repressed intellectual. :)

That, too. On the surface, anyway- do not try to bring that uptight, repressed s*** into the bedroom, (or wherever.) :)

Also on my list:
I want someone who saves the best part of himself for me. (Yeah, that part, too, but I'm speaking life-wise, here.) I don't like to share the deeper parts of my world with very many other people- I'd want/need him to be a part of that, in a way. If that makes any sense at all- I'm sure there's a more succinct way to put it.

I could see this translating into insecurity, jealousy, and possessiveness on my part, if this aspect didn't work well.
:undecided:

Lucid

12-18-2008, 06:23 PM

Not me. If I was 'involved' with a female who was smarter than me ('cause I don't know any ...*ducks Lucid's shoe*) it would spur me to study and train harder.

Ah, are you also an ex-cheerleader? :p

When you find a girl smarter than you, ask if she has a brother. I'm still looking for a man smarter than me. :)

I like my sex drive, but if I had someone diving on me all the time when I was trying to do work or study, it would make me unhappy, but worse, it would make her unhappy. I'd rather she find some friends to have sex with and rotate me in there sometimes.

I'd rather find someone with a sex drive similar to my own than share or have someone who was constantly humping my leg.

I think the first thing I'd list for myself is that he has to be a man, not a boy. That's something kind of difficult to describe, but I bet most of the females know what I mean.

Also, he needs to be intelligent and educated (either self educated or formally), he needs to be able to crack me up pretty consistently, not take himself too seriously and be able to give and take sarcastic comments quite often.

I think we probably have to have similar views about most things when it comes to religion and politics. What I've found is that if he disagrees with me about it, we'll argue about it all the time and I'll probably end up respecting him less and thinking he's either a misinformed moron or an idiot who can't use reason and logic correctly.

Oh yeah, he needs to be able to use reason and logic correctly.
He needs to be ok with me not being attached to him at the hip. I need a good amount of time to do my own thing in relationships. He also needs to be secure enough to date a girl who gets hit on frequently, has lots of guy friends and hangs out with a lot of her ex boyfriends.

He needs to be someone who can hold up his end of a debate and who won't get upset or take it personally if someone disagrees with him or criticizes his viewpoints. Otherwise my friends and my family (to say nothing of myself) will eat him alive.

He also needs to be someone who's generally kind to other people. I don't respect people who are rude, unnecessarily cruel or mean.

Other than that, probably just the basics; we should have things in common and be attracted to eachother etc.

Also, it helps if he can cook and has tattoos. :thumbsup:

And as long as I'm dreaming... he should be personally responsible for world peace and able to cure cancer in a single bound. :rolleyes:

Acextreme

12-18-2008, 07:20 PM

I think the first thing I'd list for myself is that he has to be a man, not a boy. That's something kind of difficult to describe, but I bet most of the females know what I mean.

Ok, how about letting us guys in on you gals' definition or description of the difference between a man and a boy? Let's see if our understanding is different from yours. After all, it's no use defining things in a certain way that's different from the orthodox and expect the guys to be a "man" but according to whose definition.

rara avis

12-18-2008, 07:25 PM

Lucid

12-18-2008, 07:31 PM

The first thing that comes to mind in the man/boy thing for me is poise. Just that sense you get from an adult someone that they have a sense of balance in themselves that comes from knowing who they are and standing on their own feet.

Yeah... that's a good way to put it.
Also someone who's not prone to temper tantrums, who can see the humor in most situations and who can take care of himself both practically and emotionally. Someone who does not "forget" to call or "fall asleep" when he's supposed to pick you up from work because your car is broken down. Someone who will change a dirty diaper without complaint and who can manage to do his own laundry.

AliTree

12-18-2008, 10:49 PM

WHAT! Did I read wrongly or did you mistype it? Very low to no sex drive? Then what's the point of finding a guy if you don't want sex? You would be better off with girls...or are you looking for gays? :suspicious:

*sigh* an amazing concept: loving a person for just them; no other primitive reasons. & no, i'm not gay nor want a gay male. it's called asexuality.

Okay. So if we were to go out, what do you have to offer??? ;)

ha, in terms of what?

My idea mate would be just like me. Except female. And when we eventually kill each other, the explosion will take out 20 city blocks. It'll be beautiful.

i srsly lawld all over myself when i read this.
XD!!! amazing.

Jinxu

12-19-2008, 09:55 AM

ha, in terms of what?.

I only need to know ONE thing: Can you cook??? he he j/k

Since it relates to this thread, these are the five top things I use to evaluate a potential date/girlfriend:

1)Is she of the legal age of consent?
2)Is she cute?
3)Does she have a nice personality?
4)Is she intelligent enough?
5)Is she shorter than I am?

OneHertz

12-19-2008, 11:18 AM

I am not sure about the intelligence aspect. I do not think I care too much and I am sure I will never find a woman smarter than I am so it is not anything I am worried about. That notion hit a while ago back in junior high school when I got #1 in my school in some province wide math/logic contest and got invited to a university along with a lot of the other winners for the "best of the best" contest. It was really cool, we got to live in res for free for a week with free food and such. Out of the 50 people there only 6 were females and in the end ALL SIX were in the bottom half of the list. I got #3 on that contest. God damn the asian dude that got #1 was smart. Seeing him work made me quit mathematics forever.

Saint

12-19-2008, 11:30 AM

1.) She must be incredibly smart. Smarter than me would be awesome. Mutual admiration is best. How can I love her if I don't admire her? (and vice versa)

2.) I have to find her attractive? I find all kinds of girls attractive, but lean/athletic helps quite a bit. I love tall girls. I love short girls. I love very reserved types, I love superbly cheery types. I love small breasted girls. I love large breasted girls, and so on. The real requirement is simply attractive to me. Can run a few miles without stopping I suppose is a req?

3.) has not not get angry very much. has to be emotionally stable. I am calm/quiet/relaxed so I prefer those kinds of people. Angry people scare me. Cheery is wonderful, just not frantic.

4.) She has to want to always be bettering herself intellectually/emotionally/spiritually/physically. Has to be ambitious in that sense. Has to want to be an exceptional person. Like I said before, How can I love her if I don't admire her? (and of course, vice versa, as I strive to better myself in the same ways)

5.) has to be kind/generous on some level, even if she does have a heart of iron (and I think I have a thing for those girls for some reason?)

6.) non-religious helps. Consistent worldviews help. (not that our worldviews must match, but that hers must be consistent with herself)

7.) has to be happy before she meets me.

SeaCzar

12-19-2008, 12:02 PM

There is no such thing as a "perfect" mate. I am of the opinion that there is no "ideal" mate either. As Lucid pointed out, "while I am dreaming...."

Kisai

12-19-2008, 12:06 PM

I agree. Before I got married, I had to kiss my idea of a 'perfect mate' goodbye and accept that she was never going to come.

The 'perfect mate' isn't someone else. It is the ideal you. The part that you desire completion for. The best thing you can do is to strive to be the person that you perceive your perfect mate to be.

ElstonGunn

12-19-2008, 02:19 PM

The best thing you can do is to strive to be the person that you perceive your perfect mate to be.

What if your ideal of your perfect/ideal/best reasonably possible mate is very unlike you? I'd hate to end up with someone like myself, so does that mean that I should try to alter my personality, or should I force myself to become interested in women who naturally repel me?

Just asking.

Lucid

12-19-2008, 02:56 PM

There is no such thing as a "perfect" mate. I am of the opinion that there is no "ideal" mate either. As Lucid pointed out, "while I am dreaming...."

Yeah, but the title of this thread is "INTJ perfect Mate" Not "INTJ attainable mate" or "INTJ realistic Mate."

We can always dream and then try to find someone who matches our ideals in some ways. :)

rara avis

12-19-2008, 04:06 PM

There is no such thing as a "perfect" mate. I am of the opinion that there is no "ideal" mate either. As Lucid pointed out, "while I am dreaming...."

I have little trouble knowing what I don't want. I've proven that over many years not dating at all. This is, in a way, an exercise for me... to sift through possibilities, to try to get myself into a mental position where I have a better chance of recognizing a few good features worth pursuing in someone I meet. I'm not crafting a manifesto.

One of my friends has a two-item checklist he's put together for evaluating my potential romantic interests:

[ ] Guy must be independently willing to go to ComicCon. (Yes, there are men would go with me- but are they a personality that would enjoy it?)
(subset of this item: would Doc Hammer like this guy?)

[ ] Guy must make me turn very, very red on sight. (He's seen this happen roughly twice, I think, and is convinced it's a sign of... something serious.)

Anton

12-19-2008, 07:01 PM

There's two interesting viewpoints I've seen when it comes to this:

Ultimately, it is not ideal to want specific traits in another person You never know who you might love, like, hate or dislike until you actually meet them. "Open your mind to the possibility that your soul-mate and greatest ally in life isn't necessarily richer than you, prettier than you, smarter than you, taller than you, funnier than you, or even the same generation as you. These restrictions you place on the possibilities of finding your spiritual partner will.... well, I think you know!".
This was true in my last relationship. In time, I fell hard for a girl who, appearance wise, I would normally not even give a second glance. I learned an important lesson from that: Never, EVER tell a girl something like that.

"We accept the love we think we deserve"
When you see people living with guilt or low selfesteem you notice they self sabotage themselves time and time again.

Anyways, I may as well entertain the questions in this thread. I'd like a girl who is shorter than me, petite, blue eyes, soft skin, straight hair, smells good...as in..y'know...^_^ oh yes! I'm missing one of the most important things! ~*Personality*~
Someone who can SPELL and has good grammar. I really don't mind if she's smarter than me or not, as long as she's close enough where we can relate to each other. Someone who isn't materialistic (considering I'm poor as *#@$) and she must believe that she deserves a guy like me. And I have to believe that I deserve her. Simple, if we deserve each other, then we're right for each other.

(oh and the reason my dream girl is petite, is because in my experience, sex with petite girls is.... RAWR! =D )

*edit* Can't forget, low maintenance!

LaoTzu

12-19-2008, 07:40 PM

I see a lot of talk about intelligence in this thread, some for it, and some indifferent to it....

In my past relationships I have found it most important that if she is not as intelligent, that she be able to CHANGE HER MIND when faced with (what I thought) was a more intelligent opinion. Several of them had a hard time accepting my opinion (being self effacing leads some to think that Im not as smart as I really am), some felt intimidated in arguments with me... it really led to strain in the relationship. Being able to talk to someone who is actually thinking it through is important. And someone who is smart enough to see through my bullshit is VERY important.(Its a respect thing.....)

#1 for me is self confidence... enough to say "hey listen, it means a lot that we do it this way"... or more importantly, when I am just being difficult for the sake of being difficult to say "hey.... stop being such an asshole and love me :) "

#2 CARING : someone that will do nice things to me or for me, just because they actually care that Im happy.

#3 Self reliant: I dont want to be the centre of anyone's universe.....

#4 GENUINE. They have to be able to see through the masks people wear, see through the advertising, and not allow themselves to get caught up in being something or someone that they are not. They have to be comfortable in their own skin.

There's more of course.... but I just filled out a GD profile on a dating site and this is giving me flashbacks :P

AliTree

12-20-2008, 10:47 PM

I only need to know ONE thing: Can you cook??? he he j/k

Since it relates to this thread, these are the five top things I use to evaluate a potential date/girlfriend:

1)Is she of the legal age of consent?
2)Is she cute?
3)Does she have a nice personality?
4)Is she intelligent enough?
5)Is she shorter than I am?

fuck no i don't cook.
ha, i hate cooking. when i live alone forever, i'll cook but i won't enjoy it.

& yr evaluation list seems pretty normal/average. you must go for just about anything, hahaha.

maxpot46

12-21-2008, 09:23 AM

In time, I fell hard for a girl who, appearance wise, I would normally not even give a second glance. I learned an important lesson from that: Never, EVER tell a girl something like that.

This is hilarious :)

rahdam

12-21-2008, 05:34 PM

maxpot46

12-21-2008, 09:39 PM

Attributes I'm looking for in my next relationship:

1. Beautiful -- not "pretty" but seriously hot (geeky girls who don't know how hot they are included).

2. Attractive -- not the same as #1, my ex is one of the most beautiful women on the planet... but she's not my type and I've never felt sexual passion for her (I went with it because I figured it was my problem). I like skinny girls the most, but also athletic girls.

3. Intellectual -- not just an N, but someone who lives with their head in the clouds like me. Someone who disdains movies, TV and fiction, and prefers stimulating ideas and conversation.

4. Self-actualizing -- I'm committed to physical, mental and spiritual improvement, and I want someone who naturally walks that path as well. Ideally, she would be able to help me on the spiritual part, since I haven't done much work there and frankly have already highly developed myself physically and mentally (for a man my age, at any rate -- I do respect my elders).

5. Inspiring -- someone who makes me want to improve, and who will not let me accept my failures and failings.

6. Low-maintenance -- My ex viewed me as her "helpmate"... never again.

This list is arranged chronologically as opposed to by importance. I want and demand ALL of these things, else I'd rather be alone. However, since I'm looking for a beauty in both body and mind, it's a bit easier to look for beauty first due to the sensory nature of that part.

Storm

12-21-2008, 10:39 PM

Well, as long we are all dreaming: (in no particular order)
1. Intelligent enough to hold their own in a conversation with me.
2. Similar values, interests and goals in life.
3. Physically healthy (surprised no one else has mentioned this)
4. Does not beleive in "traditional" gender roles.

Other traits can be variable.
A feeling or a thinking person can both potentially be a good match. Thinking people are easier to get along with, but feeling people can bring in an often much needed prespective.

If I were to pick out a type though I'd say ENTJ: A rational, reserved person who also is the life of a party and a natural leader. Drool.

Jinxu

12-22-2008, 02:01 AM

Sesquipedalian

12-22-2008, 02:54 AM

I want someone who is capable of keeping up intellectually. I don't expect them to like everything I like or understand everything as deeply as I might understand it, but just enough so that we can talk about things and have a meaningful exchange. I want my partner to value intelligence in themselves and me, and to build me up in this regard since I'm so naturally hard on myself.

I think my ideal temperament would be INFx with moderate-to-weak F and either weak P or weak J. I want someone to draw me out of myself emotionally and an F-type can do that, but an N-type can also relate to my strange sense of humor and need to be creative. I also want an F-type because there are times I need compassion in my direction (depression... weee...) and I need someone who might want to cuddle with me and love on me when I'm not at my best. I'd like a weak J or P because a strong J would result in more confrontations and a strong P's indecisiveness would drive me crazy.

Physically, I'm not huge on the whole height thing, but I tend to be more attracted to girls shorter than me (I'm 5'7"). I love the mesomorph body type. Athletic girls rock. I'd much prefer a girl who can run a marathon to one with huge boobs. In fact, I don't like huge breasts. If anything, they're an encumbrance. Ever seen a girl with D+ breasts try to run? Gah, talk about opposing forces. I want a girl who can keep up and who likes to take care of herself by exercising. B-cups and a nice pair of legs are fine, thanks. In fact, I like girls with slightly broader (muscular) shoulders and backs. Part of this probably stems from my competitive gymnastics background. Oh, and I'm a "face" guy. Some guys want a girl with a hot bod and could care less if her face looks like a car wreck. I want a girl who has an exquisitely beautiful face. Bodies are less important to me, but I'll be looking at that face for the rest of my life.

Emotionally, I just want someone who isn't a mess. ...someone who doesn't put up a blockade when there's a problem. Someone who can work things out verbally and agree to disagree if the issue is minor or ultimately inconsequential. Like I said above, someone who can draw me out of my shell and someone who I can live vicariously through emotionally.

Sexually, well, meh, this isn't that big for me. I think "sexual compatibility" is a stupid farce. I have a penis, so if she has a vagina, we're compatible. I'm a virgin myself and I'd ideally like for her to be as well. I look forward to exploring my future spouse sexually and growing together as we learn what each does and doesn't like.

I want a wife who looks forward to being a mom someday. I'd encourage her to have an active lifestyle and to pursue her interests. I don't want my kids "raised" by childcare though, I want a wife whose maternal instinct takes over when we decide to have kids together. Being a stay at home mom is one of the highest and most honorable things a mom can do.

I can't have a woman who is super-high-maintenance. I need someone who can enjoy the little things... Someone who doesn't need a $40 dinner and $20 movie every week just to have a good time. I relish staying home cooking something myself, and just enjoying each others' company or playing a fun game at home etc. Being a photographer, I'm probably not going to be loaded, so a moderately nice home with 2-3 kids would be fine. I will care a lot more about the quality of the items IN my house rather than the size of my house itself.

I also need a woman of faith, who believes similarly to me... Someone who cares enough about her beliefs to actually live them. My faith is too big a part of my life to ignore that in a potential mate.

Acextreme

12-22-2008, 02:58 AM

probity

12-22-2008, 04:55 PM

Okay, I'll be as straight-forward and honest as I can.

1. Mentally he's intelligent, more so than myself. He should be opinionated, not overly so, but enough so that he isn't intellectually a push over.

2. Temperament wise I like a man who is generally calm and thoughtful but very driven and passionate about what he does.

3. Physically I try not to be picky but because we're talking ideal he should be in shape and clean cut. Short, well kept hair. Dresses in well fitted clothes. Should be masculine not 'pretty'. He should enjoy looking like a man. He needs to be taller than me by at least 9-11 inches, that's not hard to do as I'm only 4'6". He needs to be able to reach the dreaded top shelf for me.

4. He should be able to control his emotions, probably better than I can, but he should feel very deeply. He also needs the empathy to understand my emotions, as subtle and hard to decipher as they can be...

5. He needs a high sex drive, but enough sexual control to be satisfied with one partner.

6. His goals have to align with mine or at least compliment mine. He should be educated and have a vision for his life.

7. He needs to live a productive and improvement based lifestyle. He also needs to be a bit traditional, wants a family and one of us to stay home to raise children (most likely me), but not before we have our vision well underway. He should highly value personal responsibility and growth.

8. He wants a family and household that is traditional and functions together to make the goals of the family a reality. There should be well defined understanding of the household ideals with the discipline and love to carry them out. He'll want children and one of us to stay home and raise the children (most likely me).

9. How should they interact with me? We should just mesh well together. He should be the controlled but passionate artisan to my controlled and cool-headed administrator. Different but working towards the same end.

He should be the kind of man who enjoys writing more than reading. I'm not sure why but that's always been an important quality to me.

AliTree

12-22-2008, 04:58 PM

Haha, you WILL be surprised that most gals don't even fit most of that bill, much less the intelligent part...

well the intelligent part, of course, is the only part that could make it kind of tough to get in. but the rest of the list sounds pretty typical.

rara avis

12-22-2008, 05:16 PM

4. He should be able to control his emotions, probably better than I can, but he should feel very deeply. He also needs the empathy to understand my emotions, as subtle and hard to decipher as they can be...

Well put. Not unemotional, but controlled, reserved. And I'd like to be able to tap in to him where others can't.

AliTree

12-22-2008, 05:18 PM

And I'd like to be able to tap in to him where others can't.

most definitely! i want to be able to get into his head more then anyone else.

probity

12-22-2008, 07:00 PM

Well put. Not unemotional, but controlled, reserved. And I'd like to be able to tap in to him where others can't.

Yes, emotions are a must. I don't feel easily and if any romantic feelings are going to be pulled out of me I need a partner that's emotionally driven enough for the both of us. That said he also does need to be reserved.

I don't need my husband to be an emotional wreck who constantly needs 'fixing', that's what best friends are for. :nice:

ElstonGunn

12-22-2008, 07:24 PM

Yes, emotions are a must. I don't feel easily and if any romantic feelings are going to be pulled out of me I need a partner that's emotionally driven enough for the both of us. That said he also does need to be reserved.

Enough for both of you? Or able to pull emotions out of you? I'm just asking for clarification. In the former, it sounds like he'd be emotional and you wouldn't, but things would average out between the two of you somehow (even with him being reserved about it). In the second situation, it sounds like he'd be an emotional catalyst for you. Like he'd bring out the feeling side of you, even though it's normally somewhat dormant.

probity

12-22-2008, 07:51 PM

Enough for both of you? Or able to pull emotions out of you? I'm just asking for clarification. In the former, it sounds like he'd be emotional and you wouldn't, but things would average out between the two of you somehow (even with him being reserved about it). In the second situation, it sounds like he'd be an emotional catalyst for you. Like he'd bring out the feeling side of you, even though it's normally somewhat dormant.

I worded that statement funny but interestingly enough it would probably be a little bit of both. I'm usually unemotional but on the rare occasion when I am emotional they're very subtle and difficult for me to process or recognize. In such cases my partner has had to pull those emotions into the light and work as a catalyst just so I could deal with them in a healthy way.

I'm a bit emotionally retarded in that when I finally get around to 'feeling' emotions they bypass my mental cognition and manifest themselves physically. Example: I had no idea how stressed I was until I discovered I was was losing my hair at an unusually fast rate.

Lucid

12-23-2008, 05:19 AM

probity and Elston should have a cup of coffee and pie together. ;)

Sinequanon

12-23-2008, 07:07 AM

probity and Elston should have a cup of coffee and pie together. ;)
Yes, and soon, before the poor girl goes bald...

rara avis

12-23-2008, 08:20 AM

Loyalty and trust come first and foremost.
I need someone who can engage me mentally and physically.
I need someone reasonably athletic.
I want someone who motivates me to push forward, and for who I do the same.
I want someone to whom I can give stability.
I want someone who will go on adventures with me.

rahdam, I'm curious - do you find that you're drawn to instability, so that you can be the stabilizing influence? Do you like a woman who might need you to fly to the rescue?

probity and Elston should have a cup of coffee and pie together. ;)

(No fair eating pie unless you bring enough for everyone.)

bluefog

12-23-2008, 06:52 PM

probity and Elston should have a cup of coffee and pie together. ;)

Like Coop and Annie? :square:

Lucid

12-23-2008, 06:54 PM

Like Coop and Annie? :square:

I don't know what that means. Who are Coop and Annie?? :suspicious:

ElstonGunn

12-23-2008, 07:36 PM

I don't know what that means. Who are Coop and Annie?? :suspicious:

I don't know. Maybe C Everett Coop and Annie Oakley. In any event, Probity's list of ideal characteristics didn't include terms like "chucklehead," "bumbling oaf," or "doofus," so that rules me out. :p

Lucid

12-23-2008, 07:39 PM

I don't know. Maybe C Everett Coop and Annie Oakley. In any event, Probity's list of ideal characteristics didn't include terms like "chucklehead," "bumbling oaf," or "doofus," so that rules me out. :p

Ah, but she didn't exclude these characteristics either!

I wonder if, between two INTJs of attracting genders who each list characteristics that the other possesses, one of them will work up the nerve to PM the other.

My money is on no. :(
Dang, sometimes we suck.

Synamon

12-23-2008, 07:59 PM

Given the raging success of the Dating Thread, I'd say no is a very good bet. ;D

ElstonGunn

12-23-2008, 08:00 PM

I wonder if, between two INTJs of attracting genders who each list characteristics that the other possesses, one of them will work up the nerve to PM the other.

My money is on no. :(
Dang, sometimes we suck.

What makes you think that that's a negative characteristic? I'm not saying it isn't; I'm just curious.

Lucid

12-23-2008, 08:01 PM

What makes you think that that's a negative characteristic? I'm not saying it isn't; I'm just curious.

That we're too shy to approach a member of the opposite sex we are likely to get along with? I'm not really saying it's objectively negative, it's just something that frustrates me about myself.

ElstonGunn

12-24-2008, 12:51 PM

That we're too shy to approach a member of the opposite sex we are likely to get along with? I'm not really saying it's objectively negative, it's just something that frustrates me about myself.

Who says it's necessarily shyness? Or did you mean "That I'm [referring to you/Lucid] too shy to approach someone I am likely to get along with"?

If it frustrates you, why don't you stop doing it? (Should I not be asking that question because it's either unproductive, too obvious to answer, or insulting? If so, ignore it.)

Kisai

12-24-2008, 12:57 PM

I don't know what that means. Who are Coop and Annie?? :suspicious:

Twin Peaks! It was only... 19 years ago!!!! Aigh!!!!! OOOOOLLLLLLDDDD!!!!

Lucid

12-24-2008, 01:00 PM

Who says it's necessarily shyness? Or did you mean "That I'm [referring to you/Lucid] too shy to approach someone I am likely to get along with"?

If it frustrates you, why don't you stop doing it? (Should I not be asking that question because it's either unproductive, too obvious to answer, or insulting? If so, ignore it.)

I'm trying to stop doing it. It's not that easy.

Twin Peaks! It was only... 19 years ago!!!! Aigh!!!!! OOOOOLLLLLLDDDD!!!!

Yeah... I was 9. I vaguely remember my parents watching it, but I don't think they would have let me.

I keep meaning to see it though.

probity

12-24-2008, 01:31 PM

Ah, but she didn't exclude these characteristics either!

I wonder if, between two INTJs of attracting genders who each list characteristics that the other possesses, one of them will work up the nerve to PM the other.

My money is on no. :(
Dang, sometimes we suck.

I don't think I could ever exclude those characteristics, even if I don't consciously acknowledge them. I've always found 'bumbling oaf' and 'doofus' to be endearing.

As far as working up the nerve to PM the other, I don't think I would have too much problem with it. Perhaps not to express any romantic interest, but to initiate a conversation on similar interests and see if it goes anywhere from there. I know that even if someone fits my list of ideal characteristics that list is more of a framework than checklist to compatibility. Only after a history with a person was built could I make any decisions regarding our compatibility.

Firebrand

12-24-2008, 03:13 PM

Not to completely derail this or anything, but OrrDavey mentioned that he wouldn't want a female who is smarter than he is. Why? Why do most men seem to feel this way?

Many women who are smarter may use that to manipulate the guy. That, and guy's like to feel in control and that would diminish that feeling (ie - make the guy feel stupid by contrast). Of course a woman who was smarter, who didn't abuse that would be fantastic in my opinion. However, among the highly intelligent women I've dated, some did abuse it.

Firebrand9 added to this post, 27 minutes and 7 seconds later...

Intelligent (the more, the better), supportive, capable, responsible, loving (accepts and loves me for who I actually am, not what she wants me to be), faithful, calm, rational/logical, beautiful & in shape (& likes that I'm into body-building), resourceful, patient, honest/sincere, classy, nonconformist (not brainwashed by the culture), into a lot of the same things I am, compatible values, growing as people in the same direction, twisted sense of humor helps (EG - Metalocalypse and South Park).... Those are my main bullet points.

Firebrand9 added to this post, 26 minutes and 30 seconds later...

My idea mate would be just like me. Except female. And when we eventually kill each other, the explosion will take out 20 city blocks. It'll be beautiful.

lmao! That's awesome!

Firebrand9 added to this post, 6 minutes and 30 seconds later...

... and hangs out with a lot of her ex boyfriends. ...

Sounds like you didn't blow up your previous relationships properly. ;) Usually, in my experience, when I see the flames on the plane's wings, I just steer it into the ground for good measure.

Firebrand9 added to this post, 10 minutes and 8 seconds later...

... Someone who disdains movies, TV and fiction, ...

Disdains?!? Why would you want someone to disdain these things? How about someone who disdains crappy forms of the above rather than the thing outright?

Lucid

12-24-2008, 03:49 PM

Sexually, well, meh, this isn't that big for me. I think "sexual compatibility" is a stupid farce. I have a penis, so if she has a vagina, we're compatible.

This is probably not the case for people who are into slightly unusual sex. There's a lot more to sex than just 'insert tab A into slot B. Repeat.' At least, there can be. :)

AnotherNormal

12-24-2008, 11:42 PM

That we're too shy to approach a member of the opposite sex we are likely to get along with? I'm not really saying it's objectively negative, it's just something that frustrates me about myself.

Is shy typical for an intj ? I've had a horrible time with it. Still kick myself thinking about some of the opportunities I had to even just talk to a girl. And they were interested ... ahhhhhhh. Heck maybe some were ESFP, who knows.

ToC

12-25-2008, 12:40 AM

Fleshlight.

maxpot46

12-25-2008, 08:33 AM

Disdains?!? Why would you want someone to disdain these things? How about someone who disdains crappy forms of the above rather than the thing outright?Because I disdain them and I want someone who matches me there, so in our day to day dealings both of us enjoy doing the same things and there is no need for one to sacrifice his time to make the other "happy" when "doing things together".

sid4wisdom

12-25-2008, 10:53 AM

Because I disdain them and I want someone who matches me there, so in our day to day dealings both of us enjoy doing the same things and there is no need for one to sacrifice his time to make the other "happy" when "doing things together".

I disdain fiction, movies and television with very few exceptions. And i think looking for that in a mate cuts out a very large percentage of the prospects, even most IN**s i think. Not a smart thing to do.

Acextreme

12-25-2008, 11:07 AM

well the intelligent part, of course, is the only part that could make it kind of tough to get in. but the rest of the list sounds pretty typical.

Hmmm, you really think so? Cute and with good personality seems like a difficult combination to come by these days...of course, it depends on how you define those 2 very subjective terms...

Acextreme added to this post, 9 minutes and 56 seconds later...

Fleshlight.

Great example...are you a guy or a gal? :suspicious:

rara avis

12-25-2008, 11:18 PM

Is shy typical for an intj ? I've had a horrible time with it. Still kick myself thinking about some of the opportunities I had to even just talk to a girl. And they were interested ... ahhhhhhh. Heck maybe some were ESFP, who knows.

I think at the very least, many of us have been known to
a) overplan, and then
b) choke.

I think of myself as reticent, reserved, more than shy. But I have my moments where I would just not be able to work up the actual confidence to approach someone properly - whether because of the way I perceive them (or myself in relation to them), or because I'm uncomfortable with the environment or situation.

It can be tricky.

Aaron

12-26-2008, 03:01 AM

Beauty

It is that simple. Mental, physical and emotional beauty. There is no category: everyone is unique. I have had relationships with a petite blond blue eyed maternity nurse who was kind a carefree, a tall dark stripper with a murdered father and beautiful sadness in her heart, a fiercely intelligent Trinidadian girl with a nose just slightly too big for a comely face but she was by far the most attractive of all because I never felt so stimulated as a person as I did with her. I just look for special.

Aaron added to this post, 3 minutes and 36 seconds later...

I think at the very least, many of us have been known to
a) overplan, and then
b) choke.

I think of myself as reticent, reserved, more than shy. But I have my moments where I would just not be able to work up the actual confidence to approach someone properly - whether because of the way I perceive them (or myself in relation to them), or because I'm uncomfortable with the environment or situation.

It can be tricky.

As an intj it is sometimes too easy to see all the reasons why not, rational and logical reasons, which probably shouldn't be applied to irrational desires of the heart. Tricky indeed, dammit.

ElstonGunn

12-26-2008, 10:39 AM

Is shy typical for an intj ? I've had a horrible time with it. Still kick myself thinking about some of the opportunities I had to even just talk to a girl. And they were interested ... ahhhhhhh. Heck maybe some were ESFP, who knows.

Would any of those situations have been likely to be worth the effort, or would they eventually have ended up in the "waste of time" file? ...Of course, that's predicated on my staunch personal belief that dating for fun is an oxymoron, so I'm sure several people would look at your situation differently than I do.

I think of myself as reticent, reserved, more than shy. But I have my moments where I would just not be able to work up the actual confidence to approach someone properly - whether because of the way I perceive them (or myself in relation to them), or because I'm uncomfortable with the environment or situation.

What's the "proper" way to approach someone? I didn't realize all these things had been codified. ...Then again, maybe I did, but I'm just very hostile towards them.

I also see myself as reserved rather than shy. "Shy" to me implies some sort of nervousness or fear. I'm only afraid of social interaction in the same way that I'm afraid of waiting in line at the DMV for three hours. It's an unpleasant experience that I'd rather avoid (maybe even if that means that I don't get to have a driver's license).

As an intj it is sometimes too easy to see all the reasons why not, rational and logical reasons, which probably shouldn't be applied to irrational desires of the heart. Tricky indeed, dammit.

As an INTJ, I see a lot of instances where people dislike rationality being used for important decisions. If anything, I think matters of the heart require the most careful thought. They're important, so why not give them due diligence rather than going along with what "feels right?" I'm not saying ignore the emotional part, but I think it should be considered along with several other factors.

I think it ties into the idea that there's a proper way to go about these things. It's SJ-ish in a sense, but it bothers me a lot more than SJs in general do (I tend to like them).

Bah. I guess you could consider this post of mine as an example of why cultivating an interest in INTJs can be risky. You might run afoul of a crotchety bastard like me, so don't say I didn't warn you.

Tyrant Soup

12-26-2008, 11:07 AM

Is shy typical for an intj ? I've had a horrible time with it.

As Rara Avis said in different words, INTJ's like to work out every possible scenario in their mind before taking action. Some of these scenarios are very unpleasant but has no realistic chance of occurring. Nevertheless, fear takes over and no action results.

When it comes to social introductions, the best approach is to just do it. The actual consequences are rarely as unpleasant as you think.

INTJSheldon

12-26-2008, 03:03 PM

..snip..

(unless they kill animals for a living, that would be a deal breaker).

..snip..

What if they dont kill them for a living, but they happen to have to kill them every so often so they dont kill people?

INTJSheldon added to this post, 4 minutes and 16 seconds later...

The two criteria I used when judging whether or not to marry my wife was that she was:

1)A good person.
2)Sane.

I figured I could do worse.

Thats pretty much what I did actually. To some extent, i thought to myself, Hay i tricked this one into liking me, lets do this.

I dont mean tricked in any negative manner at all, rather, that i found someone who could put up with my INTJ'ness and we appricated each other. After that all the other little stuff can be molded.

if I had to pick three things that really matter, they were:

- Is she motivated to learn, she dosn't have to be smart, but can i make her smart?
- Does she have some other drive/goal that we cna work on together?
- Whats he political/religious belief?

firetiger

12-26-2008, 04:05 PM

stable
ambitious
emotionally and financially secure
inspired and inspiring
sexual
open minded
similar (good) sense of humor heh

rara avis

12-26-2008, 04:33 PM

As an intj it is sometimes too easy to see all the reasons why not, rational and logical reasons, which probably shouldn't be applied to irrational desires of the heart. Tricky indeed, dammit.

Le cœur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît point
The heart has its reasons, of which reason itself knows nothing - Pascal

This phrase strikes -well, not terror, but definite concern- in my rational soul. I think it has truth to it, and I'm not sure just what to do with that. :scared: I'll just hope to cross that bridge when I come to it. If I'm lucky.

What's the "proper" way to approach someone? I didn't realize all these things had been codified. ...Then again, maybe I did, but I'm just very hostile towards them.

Right, OK then - for the recalcitrant among us, including myself, but especially including ElstonGunn, a clarification:
By "properly" I do not necessarily mean, "...according to Judith Martin's rules." I mean: "...as I think that I ought, in order to be effective in the given situation."

Lucid

12-26-2008, 06:24 PM

Right, OK then - for the recalcitrant among us, including myself, but especially including ElstonGunn, a clarification:
By "properly" I do not necessarily mean, "...according to Judith Martin's rules." I mean: "...as I think that I ought, in order to be effective in the given situation."

Who is Judith Martin and what are her rules? :suspicious:

rara avis

12-26-2008, 09:18 PM

Storm

12-26-2008, 09:30 PM

Miss Manners is still alive and well. But be careful with her advice, she's a bit sarcastic, that one. Usually for her the "proper" way is whatever gets to the true point of the ritual.
Sorry for the threadjack.

AliTree

12-26-2008, 09:58 PM

Hmmm, you really think so? Cute and with good personality seems like a difficult combination to come by these days...of course, it depends on how you define those 2 very subjective terms...

i'm not saying that it's a common combination of traits. i'm saying it's a typical list of wants that guys make. not saying that's bad to be typical, just saying that it is.

Jinxu

12-26-2008, 10:03 PM

i'm not saying that it's a common combination of traits. i'm saying it's a typical list of wants that guys make. not saying that's bad to be typical, just saying that it is.
Are you still talking about my post? I must have left quite an impression. :)

Lucid

12-26-2008, 10:07 PM

Judith Martin is (was?) Miss Manners (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). Possibly one of the biggest ESTJs EVAR. :laugh: But sometimes very useful, in her way...

Ohhhh, Miss Manners. Believe it or not (I know, severed heads, all this talk of tattoos and motorcycles) but I was raised on Miss Manners. :)

rara avis

12-26-2008, 10:23 PM

The woman is remarkably rational. I think her overall point is that manners are not empty ritual, they have purpose - that's how she makes her (often ruthless) calls on what to do and not to do.

Acextreme

12-27-2008, 02:25 AM

fuck no i don't cook.
ha, i hate cooking. when i live alone forever, i'll cook but i won't enjoy it.

& yr evaluation list seems pretty normal/average. you must go for just about anything, hahaha.

i'm not saying that it's a common combination of traits. i'm saying it's a typical list of wants that guys make. not saying that's bad to be typical, just saying that it is.

Yeah, that's true being a typical list of wants that guys make; I agree. But notice your initial comment; "you must go for just about anything". The point here is, if such traits are hard to come by (i.e. cute and with good personality; let's leave out the intelligence thing for now), he wouldn't go for just about anything.

Sorry, I don't mean to come across as mean, but when you said "you must go for just about anything", it gave me the impression that you are implying that such gals are plenty everywhere. If so, I need to visit my optometrist sometime soon... :cheesy:

Acextreme added to this post, 1 minutes and 32 seconds later...

Are you still talking about my post? I must have left quite an impression. :)

Haha, more like I was talking about your post and her comment on it... :)

ElstonGunn

12-27-2008, 07:21 PM

i'm not saying that it's a common combination of traits. i'm saying it's a typical list of wants that guys make. not saying that's bad to be typical, just saying that it is.

Yeah, that's true being a typical list of wants that guys make; I agree. But notice your initial comment; "you must go for just about anything". The point here is, if such traits are hard to come by (i.e. cute and with good personality; let's leave out the intelligence thing for now), he wouldn't go for just about anything.

I thought it was a pretty vague list. Both "cute" and "good personality" don't really mean anything by any external, measurable standard. It's not like saying that you have to be six feet tall or have blue eyes or something where everybody thinks of the same thing when you say it. There's no room for debate about what "blue eyes" means, but one person's concept of "cute" might be different from another's.

Of course, when you're talking about your own criteria, the only person's definition of "cute" that matters is your own. I thought it was kind of like saying "I like good things." I do that a lot, and then I have to go back and explain what I meant when I said XYZ.

Hinun

12-28-2008, 02:42 AM

What kind of goals do they have? Lifestyle?

Probably incredible ambitious, but not in regards to money, I hate people who live to make money, but definitely a upper middle class lifestyle (moderately nice house, car, etc.)
What kind of family or household do they want, if any?

Probably 2-3 kids, very well educated (2-3 because each one could get individual attention on homework and studying, so they will be great students).

How should they interact with you?

Understand that I need "me time", I cannot deal with people 24/7 and hate the idea of living with someone constantly, however I do believe humans are able to have a monogamous relationship for 20 or so years.

1.Mentally: As intelligent as me or smarter (I want someone who can make me grow and expand my knowledge and give me a run for my money in a debate)

2.Temperamentally: Definitely calm and collected most of the time, but knows how to just act weird when it is appropriate (especially in bed, lol!).

3.Physically: I actually have no real preference besides they cannot be incredible overweight or really skinny. Certainly physically attractive, but not more than me, it hurts my ego, lol).

4.Emotionally: More emotional than me, but not way more, I enjoy more extroverted people to an extent, especially in regards to emotions.

5.Sexually: probably has to have about the same sex drive as me, just seems reasonable, then everyone is satisfied.

Acextreme

12-28-2008, 10:19 AM

I thought it was a pretty vague list. Both "cute" and "good personality" don't really mean anything by any external, measurable standard. It's not like saying that you have to be six feet tall or have blue eyes or something where everybody thinks of the same thing when you say it. There's no room for debate about what "blue eyes" means, but one person's concept of "cute" might be different from another's.

Of course, when you're talking about your own criteria, the only person's definition of "cute" that matters is your own. I thought it was kind of like saying "I like good things." I do that a lot, and then I have to go back and explain what I meant when I said XYZ.

Yeah, I know that's subjective, which was what I said earlier; depending on how her definition of cute and good personality is. But the point I wanted to make was that since she said that "you must go for just about anything" to Jinxu's typical list, she must have implied such gals are plentiful. Well, that's not necessary since cute and good personality are pretty subjective in nature; I would find a cute gal with good personality hard to come by, which I implied when I replied to her comments - guess I have high expectations? So point is, I am pointing out to her that though that might be a typical list, that still doesn't mean that Jinxu would go for "just about anything" since he might actually have high expectations like me too...and gals that can even fulfill 2 of those criteria (i.e. cute and with good personality) while leaving out the intelligence part which most gals would probably failed badly are still hard to come by, at least to me... ;)

Aressera

12-28-2008, 02:23 PM

OK, here goes...

She must have/be:

1. Sexy - I must find them sexually attractive in my own way. This can mean almost anything, given that they are at least reasonably thin and not repulsive. I have a preference for girls that are "cute" rather than classically beautiful. However, my ideal is probably 5'2" to 5'9", mildly tan (usually caucasian, though I can find others attractive, especially persians), thin and athletic with dark hair (medium to short) and strong yet feminine features. I prefer girls who don't find the need to dress up all the time, but who can stun when needed.

2. Sex Drive - She must have a fairly high sex drive and be willing to explore new possibilities in the bedroom (or wherever else). I want someone who can keep up with me and even make me work a little.

3. Personality - Probably ENFP. She must compliment my strengths and weaknesses. Being a very strong T, I need someone who can bring most of the emotion to the relationship, yet someone who is not easily offended and can be detached in debate. She must be extremely open minded, exposing me to new experiences, things, and ideas. She must be an inspirer - someone who is able to motivate me to go out and do things I don't normally do, to expand my boundaries. She should be all-around fun to be with, an exciting person.

4. Intelligence - She should be about as intelligent as me, though a little more or a little less is fine. Ideally, she would have different types of intelligence - emotional/social/artistic/literary to compliment my comp sci/math/physics background. If we were too similar, I feel like there might be competition between us, so it is best to have separate but equal intelligences. I should be able to have deep intelligent conversations with her about N-ish topics.

5. Good Taste - This is kind of hard to quantify, but she must recognize great works of art/music/film/whatever when she sees/hears them. I'm a musician and I want someone who can appreciate good music, even if she doesn't necessarily like it.

I guess above all, someone who is just as weird as me with strange interests who accepts me for who I am, yet inspires me to become a better person.

AliTree

12-28-2008, 04:56 PM

so everything's clear. k, i'm over this thread. ha. :p

Firebrand

12-29-2008, 02:30 AM

i'm not saying that it's a common combination of traits. i'm saying it's a typical list of wants that guys make. not saying that's bad to be typical, just saying that it is.

Both those traits are so subjective that of course every guy (or girl for that matter) would list them. Good personality in this case usually means like-minded, like interests, good chemistry between that person and the person making the list. The good usually means like or compatible.

curiousjane

12-29-2008, 11:09 AM

Ok, how about letting us guys in on you gals' definition or description of the difference between a man and a boy? Let's see if our understanding is different from yours. After all, it's no use defining things in a certain way that's different from the orthodox and expect the guys to be a "man" but according to whose definition.

A boy does not take responsibility for his own behavior. He plays constantly, and, while charming, does not follow through on commitments that do not necessarily interest him personally. He focuses on himself, and approaches the world with an entitled manner. A relationship with him requires mothering. This is almost cute at age 2, 8, or even 13. It is definitely not cute at 22, 28, or 33.

A man accepts responsibility. He works hard, but leaves room for goofing off, silliness, and playful behaviors when it is appropriate. He doesn't take himself TOO seriously, but does follow through on commitments, whether business or relational. He focuses on others, and approaches the world with confidence and security and generosity of spirit. A relationship with him is a joy, because it will be give and take. This is not "cute" ... this is downright attractive ... at any age. :)

Throw in feminine pronouns and the same applies for women, too.

rara avis

12-29-2008, 11:30 AM

Wow, cj, it seems you've put some thought into the subject. Possibly some research? lol
Excellent description, imo.

curiousjane

12-29-2008, 11:52 AM

Actually, I've been fortunate enough to date mostly "men" ... but I've seen way too much of "boy" behavior in my friends' dates/boyfriends.

There was a lot of thought put into it, however, because I had to know what I was looking for in a guy in order to find it.

Then again, I'm an INFP. I do this kind of soul-searching on a daily basis ;) Not to mention, MY perfect mate probably wouldn't want an INTJ ... he'd want me. So this is kinda off-topic, but still applicable, I hope!

Lantigua

12-29-2008, 04:16 PM

1. What individual traits do you think are ideal to you, (a) Mentally, (b) Temperamentally, (c) Physically, (d) Emotionally, (e) Sexually?

2. What kind of goals do they have? Lifestyle?

3. What kind of family or household do they want, if any?

4. How should they interact with you?
1a. Mature and inclined towards learning/understanding the world we live in.

1b. Self-control is a must. I do not tolerate childish behavior, unless its an actual child!

1c. In decent shape, not extreme skinny or fat. By extreme, I mean extreme in the full sense of the word. In terms of the face, well a face that I find good looking or acceptable is always a plus. However, looks is only skin deep. Once you get to know someone, the way they look has a meaning attached to it and that meaning has little to do with how attractive their face is. Everything else is not important.

1d. Stable. Not too emotional, but not completely cold; somewhere in the middle would be nice.

1e. Nothing extreme one way or another in terms of sexual appetite. Maybe a little curious and from time to time be willing to try new ways of making it more exciting. I don't like routine in any aspect of my life, sorry. ;)

2. Big picture type. Must know what she wants, when she wants it, how she's going to get it, and be willing to put all of that around the new goals of our relationship, and be as supporting of my goals as I will be of hers. If she doesn't have any goals, although I highly doubt I'll date a woman with no goals, but if she doesn't have any meaningful goals, then she should become committed towards helping me achieve my own. But, again, I highly doubt this will ever happen since I like independent women.

As for lifestyle, mirror my own. Sophisticated, well mannered, with touches of luxury; but nothing out of the ordinary or extravagant.

3. Never thought of this.

4. Always maintain a level of respect, aloof, and give me my space when I need it. I won't ask of anyone to do anything I would not do to them, that's how I live my life.

;D

Acextreme

12-29-2008, 07:22 PM

Firebrand

12-31-2008, 05:20 AM

A boy does not take responsibility for his own behavior. He plays constantly, and, while charming, does not follow through on commitments that do not necessarily interest him personally. He focuses on himself, and approaches the world with an entitled manner. A relationship with him requires mothering. This is almost cute at age 2, 8, or even 13. It is definitely not cute at 22, 28, or 33.

A man accepts responsibility. He works hard, but leaves room for goofing off, silliness, and playful behaviors when it is appropriate. He doesn't take himself TOO seriously, but does follow through on commitments, whether business or relational. He focuses on others, and approaches the world with confidence and security and generosity of spirit. A relationship with him is a joy, because it will be give and take. This is not "cute" ... this is downright attractive ... at any age. :)

Throw in feminine pronouns and the same applies for women, too.

Why would anyone follow through on commitments that don't interest them? What would be the point? Sounds like you're trying to get people to commit to things that they don't have the balls to just tell you no on.

Agreed on the accepting responsibility and the 50/50 realtionships. Focusing on others though? I think you mean considering others, not focusing which implies the exclusion of all else. Everyone prioritizes their own needs first. Independence proceeds interdependence and INTJs are among the most independent types I've ever met.

There seems to be a fundamental difference between what a F type and a T type would consider "mature". I'm wondering what other INTJ females think on this?

Firebrand9 added to this post, 4 minutes and 35 seconds later...

Because I disdain them and I want someone who matches me there, so in our day to day dealings both of us enjoy doing the same things and there is no need for one to sacrifice his time to make the other "happy" when "doing things together".

You don't have any fiction, tv, or movies you like? As in none?!?! I can understand not liking most of those but none at all? I find that incomprehensible. Do you play video games at all?

maxpot46

12-31-2008, 11:06 PM

You don't have any fiction, tv, or movies you like? As in none?!?! I can understand not liking most of those but none at all? I find that incomprehensible. Do you play video games at all?

Sure, I like comic books and superhero movies. I still disdain them as a waste of time (my time, that is -- I think kids still benefit from them as moral guides). I don't really care to entertain myself with sensory stimulation like TV/movies or music or video games -- I like to improve my body, mind and spirit, and thus prefer to spend my time exercising, reading or philosophizing/meditating.

Now sometimes I watch TV/movies or play Rock Band with my son and soon-to-be-ex-wife. I don't really enjoy it, though. I don't like music interrupting my thoughts, and engaging my emotions when I'm trying to focus. My friends know better than to put on the TV when I visit because I prefer an intense stimulating conversation to a shared entertainment experience.

No, I'm not much fun at parties :)

maxpot46 added to this post, 16 minutes and 37 seconds later...

Why would anyone follow through on commitments that don't interest them? What would be the point? Sounds like you're trying to get people to commit to things that they don't have the balls to just tell you no on.

Most women find it very important for men to follow through on being faithful to a woman they've committed to, even if he stops loving her or finds himself more attracted to another woman. I think most people are taught to look at marriage qua marriage as a good (holy) thing (and committed relationships, to a lesser extent) and have the assumption that the individuals involved must change themselves to save the marriage whenever conflict arises. Your view, while logical, would result in a lot of unhappy women if it were applied consistently.

Agreed on the accepting responsibility and the 50/50 realtionships. Focusing on others though? I think you mean considering others, not focusing which implies the exclusion of all else. Everyone prioritizes their own needs first. Independence proceeds interdependence and INTJs are among the most independent types I've ever met.

I suspect that most women believe that their man should be focused on them and the family to the exclusion of himself -- the reasoning seems to be that if he's not selfish then doing so should replace his own personal desires, i.e. he should want to do so now.

jisnowhere

12-31-2008, 11:28 PM

MUST HAVES: (in order of importance)
1. chemistry
2.strong character (able to be true to herself under pressure)
3.educated (sees higher ed and lifelong learning as a priority)
4.emotionally healthy/strong. emotional adult (has "left home" emotionally) really likes herself
5.Hot/ Very attractive imo
6.Affectionate/sweet disposition
7.Intellectual
8.Spirituality/Doctrinal soundness
9.Sexually passionate
10.Loves sports/competition
11. verbal intimacy (believe it or not, i want to connect at a deep level, well, it sounds good)
12.sense of humor

TOP 12 - NO COMPROMISE. the following would be a big bonus:

13.conflict resolver
14.adventurous (hiking, camping, boating, etc)
15. general understanding of psychology (masters or Phd would be a plus)
16.able to forgive, adapt
17.organized, systematic but not over the top
18. emotionally generous (esp. w me)..but not gushy (yuk!)
19. Desire for strong family life (family mission statement, empowering children to become emotionally mature young adults)
20.Financially responsible, but willing to "let go" from time to time for adventure/fun
21.curious (about the world, life)

MUST NOT HAVES: (in no real order..havent had time to work on these much)
-flirtyness (needing approval from men)
-dependent (on me for happiness)
-lying (no way!)
-childish
-intruding family/friends
-extremely shy
-television junkie
-unable to accept blame/denying
-holdes grudges (makes for an angry, withered lover)
-self-centered
-infidelity (keep it in-house)
-materialistic

i dont want much

jisnowhere added to this post, 11 minutes and 7 seconds later...

OK, here goes...

She must have/be:

3. Personality - Probably ENFP. She must compliment my strengths and weaknesses. Being a very strong T, I need someone who can bring most of the emotion to the relationship, yet someone who is not easily offended and can be detached in debate. She must be extremely open minded, exposing me to new experiences, things, and ideas. She must be an inspirer - someone who is able to motivate me to go out and do things I don't normally do, to expand my boundaries. She should be all-around fun to be with, an exciting person.

if i were you i'd do some reading on the difficulties associated with pairing with your exact opposite (an enfp is ur exact opposite)..some may disagree, but there is a growing body of research that indicates that being matched with someone who is greatly similar to you strongly increases your chances of success in the relationship.

how many enfp's would u naturally become great friends with? they love and need people..you love and need alone time (much more than any E will ever need or want)..they arent detailed, and are very carefree..the differences between you - though perhaps intriguing at first, would no doubt madden the greatest saint among us..they say opposites attract, but from previous generations we can observe, that, yes, they attract, then they attack.

AnotherNormal

01-01-2009, 12:09 AM

When it comes to social introductions, the best approach is to just do it. The actual consequences are rarely as unpleasant as you think.

Some people were raised by wolves. I was raised by sensors and feelers, I know what unpleasant is like.

Thanks for the input all.

Aressera

01-01-2009, 12:23 AM

if i were you i'd do some reading on the difficulties associated with pairing with your exact opposite (an enfp is ur exact opposite)..some may disagree, but there is a growing body of research that indicates that being matched with someone who is greatly similar to you strongly increases your chances of success in the relationship.

how many enfp's would u naturally become great friends with? they love and need people..you love and need alone time (much more than any E will ever need or want)..they arent detailed, and are very carefree..the differences between you - though perhaps intriguing at first, would no doubt madden the greatest saint among us..they say opposites attract, but from previous generations we can observe, that, yes, they attract, then they attack.

Well for one, an ENFP is not the exact opposite of my type (INTJ). I am good friends with several and I really like how I'm able to truly be myself around them and don't have to hold my tongue and thus appear to be more extroverted. A mature ENFP can have deep conversations as well as any type can and they are intuitive enough to notice when an introverted type needs space.

While I disagree with what you say in relation to ENFPs, I would agree if it was directed towards ESFPs, having been in a failed relationship with one.

antisocial one

01-01-2009, 05:12 AM

Well, we had a thread about the ideal for INTPs to settle down with, which was interesting, but I haven't seen one that just addresses simply what INTJs think they need and want, overall. I know I have ideas of my own, some more distinct than others.

Would anyone care to chip in their two cents and make our own list?

Beyond MBTI categories, what individual traits do you think are ideal to you, Mentally, Temperamentally, Physically, Emotionally, Sexually?

What kind of goals do they have? Lifestyle?

What kind of family or household do they want, if any?

How should they interact with you?

Feel free to identify your gender, if you think it's pertinent.

I'd like someone who can be very supportive of me, encouraging in an intelligent and respectful way, without too much fluff or filler, and without even hinting at being controlling.

I don't believe in perfect mates and I don't bother since I know that there are things such as realism and probability.

Hashim

01-01-2009, 05:40 AM

She must have a beautiful soul...

jisnowhere

01-01-2009, 06:37 AM

Well for one, an ENFP is not the exact opposite of my type (INTJ). I am good friends with several and I really like how I'm able to truly be myself around them and don't have to hold my tongue and thus appear to be more extroverted. A mature ENFP can have deep conversations as well as any type can and they are intuitive enough to notice when an introverted type needs space.

While I disagree with what you say in relation to ENFPs, I would agree if it was directed towards ESFPs, having been in a failed relationship with one.

hmmm..fair enough, in that it appears that personality theory is not an exact science...but there is some info out there that led me to my suggestion about INTJ and ENFP being "opposites"..here's one such example, but the validity of these claims may lack verification, or the ability to be verified:

from To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
i found:

There is a lot of different information out there regarding romantic compatibility between types. Among others, I know of the following theories of perfect matches:

- Opposites attract (INTJ + ESFP, ISTP + ENFJ etc.)

- Keirsey: Opposites attract, but N or S must be the same (INTJ + ENFP, ISTP + ESFJ etc.)

- Personalitypage: The dominant function must be shared, but oppositely directed (INTJ with Introverted Intuition + ENFP _or_ ENTP since both have Extraverted Intuition, ISTP with Introverted Thinking + ESTJ _or_ ENTJ since both have Extraverted Thinking)

Based on my own observations, I believe that Keirsey has it right when he insists that N or S should be the same. I also believe that Personalitypage is correct in emphasizing the importance of having the same dominant function. Finally, I believe that, as long as the basic language (N or S) and interest (dominant function) are the same, opposites do indeed attract and complement one another.

I therefore propose the following hierarchy of relationship matches:

---

Condition 1: The dominant function must be the same, but oppositely directed.
Condition 2: The perceiving function (N or S) must be the same.

If possible once these conditions are met, the judging function (T or F) should be different.

---

This leads to the following eight optimal matches:

INTJ-ENFP (Dominant function: Intuition, T and F opposite)
ENTP-INFJ (Dominant function: Intuition, T and F opposite)
ISTJ-ESFP (Dominant function: Sensing, T and F opposite)
ESTP-ISFJ (Dominant function: Sensing, T and F opposite)
INTP-ENTJ (Dominant function: Thinking)
ISTP-ESTJ (Dominant function: Thinking)
ENFJ-INFP (Dominant function: Feeling)
ESFJ-ISFP (Dominant function: Feeling)

---

I'd love to hear any thoughtful comments.

Also, if anyone is aware of a source who has already published this hierarchy, please let me know.

Yours,
Tanja (INTJ)

but i also found info that supports your claim:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Type Interactions #7: INTJ-ESFP
While it is wonderful to sit around and discuss how amazing we INTJs are, there are other types in the world and we generally have to deal with them more than with fellow INTJs. As a result I will be making weekly posts about how INTJs interact with others to get feedback on the experiences we INTJs have had with other types and how we've learned to deal with them successfully. I'll be posting this series every Monday featuring a new quasi-randomly-selected personality type.

Type Interactions #7: INTJ-ESFP

The ESFP type is an INTJ's opposite type, often considered an INTJ's shadow type. In 8-function theory their strongest function is our weakest function and vice versa (S-N). The same applies for our secondary and their tertiary function and vice versa (F-T). Even with the F-P combo being rarer they still out number us... but I don't know any who have been typed or whom I could type with confidence.

What are your experiences with ESFPs? Personal? Work?
How can INTJs deal effectively with ESFPs?
What are the problem areas between INTJs and ESFPs?
What makes INTJ-ESFP interactions/relationships worth while?

For this one only I'll toss in an extra question: Does being shadow types for each other make any difference in our interactions?

im glad you posted...youve raised my awareness of a broader picture of MBTI compatability/incompatability. ill check it out further sometime. id really like to find more professional info related to this topic..

Firebrand

01-03-2009, 06:00 PM

Sure, I like comic books and superhero movies. I still disdain them as a waste of time (my time, that is -- I think kids still benefit from them as moral guides). I don't really care to entertain myself with sensory stimulation like TV/movies or music or video games -- I like to improve my body, mind and spirit, and thus prefer to spend my time exercising, reading or philosophizing/meditating.

Now sometimes I watch TV/movies or play Rock Band with my son and soon-to-be-ex-wife. I don't really enjoy it, though. I don't like music interrupting my thoughts, and engaging my emotions when I'm trying to focus. My friends know better than to put on the TV when I visit because I prefer an intense stimulating conversation to a shared entertainment experience.

No, I'm not much fun at parties :)

ha! You seem to have some inner-conflict on that. Comic books as moral guides. Hmm... Whether or not that works would obviously depend on the comic, but if I was a father I'd prefer to be the moral guide or at least teach critical thinking skills to my kids so they can decide on their own code of ethics. But I have no intention of ever being a dad. For music, the only thing I like while I'm trying to focus is classical, especially baroque classical. Metal does not work for that. I tend to prefer a good conversation too.

I do all that too. I'm a body-builder and lift weights a few times a week. I also do Ninjutsu a couple hours a week. I play some guitar. I read a lot. I program even more. And in addition, I play a few games (for a while I did have similar inner conflict that you do with movies with these) and watch a few shows that I like. I don't exclude anything purposefully. I find the more angles I can hit my brain at, the more "complete" my brain's development is.

maxpot46 added to this post, 16 minutes and 37 seconds later...

Most women find it very important for men to follow through on being faithful to a woman they've committed to, even if he stops loving her or finds himself more attracted to another woman. I think most people are taught to look at marriage qua marriage as a good (holy) thing (and committed relationships, to a lesser extent) and have the assumption that the individuals involved must change themselves to save the marriage whenever conflict arises. Your view, while logical, would result in a lot of unhappy women if it were applied consistently.

Right, on commitments that you make, sure. I'm assuming that the person making the commitment is rational enough to only make commitments based on truth. If you seriously don't love someone and you continue to stay with them out of convenience or obligation, then essentially, you're lying to them. It's one thing if you hit a rough patch in a relationship but another if the relationship is irreconcilable and you just didn't notice the major differences in your personalities beforehand. It makes more rational sense to explain your position and then exit the relationship in that case, as the pain will be paid with interest if you don't get it over with. I agree that this is expected but what I'm advocating is reinvestigating these social trends. The divorce rate was over 60% last I had checked.

I suspect that most women believe that their man should be focused on them and the family to the exclusion of himself -- the reasoning seems to be that if he's not selfish then doing so should replace his own personal desires, i.e. he should want to do so now.

Isn't that selfish of them though?

maxpot46

01-04-2009, 12:20 AM

ha! You seem to have some inner-conflict on that. Comic books as moral guides. Hmm... Whether or not that works would obviously depend on the comic, but if I was a father I'd prefer to be the moral guide or at least teach critical thinking skills to my kids so they can decide on their own code of ethics.
I don't think they're exclusive. Of course I am his greatest moral guide, but there is room for others. I like comics because they present a black and white world, and they bring up fairly deep questions in a way that kids minds can wrap around. Why doesn't Superman take over the world? Why doesn't Spider-man use his abilities to entertain? Of course you're right in that it matters a lot which comic -- there are many that are inappropriate but the classics are IMO wonderful.

But I have no intention of ever being a dad.
It's a very fulfilling, enlightening and enjoyable thing.

I do all that too. I'm a body-builder and lift weights a few times a week. I also do Ninjutsu a couple hours a week. I play some guitar. I read a lot. I program even more. And in addition, I play a few games (for a while I did have similar inner conflict that you do with movies with these) and watch a few shows that I like. I don't exclude anything purposefully. I find the more angles I can hit my brain at, the more "complete" my brain's development is.
I agree with the sentiment -- I disagree with the idea that the games and shows are helpful. They are entertainment. I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy them (most people do), but let's dispense with the pretense that they are developing your brain.

Right, on commitments that you make, sure. I'm assuming that the person making the commitment is rational enough to only make commitments based on truth. If you seriously don't love someone and you continue to stay with them out of convenience or obligation, then essentially, you're lying to them. It's one thing if you hit a rough patch in a relationship but another if the relationship is irreconcilable and you just didn't notice the major differences in your personalities beforehand. It makes more rational sense to explain your position and then exit the relationship in that case, as the pain will be paid with interest if you don't get it over with. I agree that this is expected but what I'm advocating is reinvestigating these social trends. The divorce rate was over 60% last I had checked. I agree entirely but it's still a very painful thing to do, especially since we INTJs are not great with emotions. I'm pretty much going through exactly that atm. It's not easy, especially if you are still very affectionate for the woman whom you realize you don't actually love, and hurting her causes you pain (even the legendary icy INTJ heart can feel it, I'm finding).

Jinxu

01-04-2009, 04:45 AM

There is a lot of different information out there regarding romantic compatibility between types. Among others, I know of the following theories of perfect matches:

- Opposites attract (INTJ + ESFP, ISTP + ENFJ etc.)

- Keirsey: Opposites attract, but N or S must be the same (INTJ + ENFP, ISTP + ESFJ etc.)
I have Keirsey's book Please Understand Me II. It's actually opposites with traits that compliment one another that attracts. From his research he found that NT-NF and SJ-SP marriages tend to be the most successful.

Also, I posted this in another thread and since it's relevant and the other thread is dead, I'll repost it here:

I have a copy of the original book by Isabel Briggs Myers, Gift Differing. She has a chapter on marriage. No where in the chapter did she state anything about what the ideal mate for a certain personality type should be. It seems some people added their own "ideas" to her original theory.

Sinequanon

01-04-2009, 11:25 AM

I have Keirsey's book Please Understand Me II. It's actually opposites with traits that compliment one another that attracts. From his research he found that NT-NF and SJ-SP marriages tend to be the most successful.
Was it research or conjecture?

This isn't to say that his conjecture (if it was that) wasn't accurate, but still... Research would be better. If it was research, where is it?

Jinxu

01-05-2009, 12:06 AM

Was it research or conjecture?
He state that from his 40 years of observing marriages, he recognized some patterns and frequencies to romantic attractions. He state that the best pairs tend to have a combination of similarity and complementarity. More specifically, it's the similarity in how we think and communicate (ie the S-N functions) combined with complementarity in how we use tools to implement goals (ie the T-F functions). Hence the reason why SJ-SP and NT-NF pairs are the most frequent. Furthermore, with two likes (ie NT-NT or SJ-SJ) there's the risk of the relationship having predictability, boredom, contempt, and/or rivalry.

Also, he stressed that this is just generalization and that two well-adjusted individual of any temperament can make their marriage work for themselves. It's just that outside the given two pairs, there tend to be more problems.

amberlinen

01-05-2009, 10:29 AM

Ideally, an exact replica of me, more attractive if he/she is doing something I always wanted to do but haven't got a chance to do, or possessing qualities I always wanted to have but haven't fully developed yet ect. This may sound narcissistic but it's really not. This is practically the only way I can fall in love with someone, which significantly differs from infatuation, friendly feelings, and respect I have when I meet a good person.

The pragmatic way may be to find someone who's intrinsically a caring person, and willing to devote himself/herself to assisting you and caring for you. But I find it immoral if I can't give my devotion in reciprocation (and I realy cannot because It's not in my nature). When other people are having this kind of unequal relationship and both are ok with it, then I'm ok with it. But I myself cannot do it, because this makes me nauseous.

HappyScrappyPup

01-05-2009, 01:50 PM

I don't like to write so late in a thread since so few ppl will read it, but oh well.

Here's what I look for in women:

1. Is very 'media literate', in that they enjoy and deeply understand literature, film, music, etc.

2. Likes or can accept my intensity: I get very passionate about whatever I see needs fixed, in work or everyday life, and I simply can not think about anything else until it is fixed. I always outshine anyone else working on that problem, so it works out in the end.

3. Has a sappy, soft side...even if it's locked up where only her closest friends and I can see it. Actually, especially in that case; I love the feeling that a girl trusts me enough to "let me in."

4. Makes me feel like nothing's "off limits" in the bedroom. I'm not really kinky, but I like trying new things out, and I like knowing a girl's not going to think I'm weird for just trying something that turns me on. Hell, I'd do anything the girl is into.

5. Likes being in an exclusive relationship, and is not prone to cheating. What is up with all these girls who cheat time and again, with each guy they're with? Most of my relationships have ended because of it.

6. Is generally intelligent.

7. Is tomboyish enough to like doing outdoors stuff and just kind of horseplay around in the snow or whatever. I dated a girl that absolutely HATED being outside...I can't deal with that.

8. Does not watch Family Guy on a regular basis or quote its...well, I guess you might call them "jokes."

errrzarrr

01-05-2009, 03:08 PM

MUST HAVES: (in order of importance)
1. chemistry
2.strong character (able to be true to herself under pressure)
3.educated (sees higher ed and lifelong learning as a priority)
4.emotionally healthy/strong. emotional adult (has "left home" emotionally) really likes herself
5.Hot/ Very attractive imo
6.Affectionate/sweet disposition
7.Intellectual
8.Spirituality/Doctrinal soundness
9.Sexually passionate
10.Loves sports/competition
11. verbal intimacy (believe it or not, i want to connect at a deep level, well, it sounds good)
12.sense of humor

TOP 12 - NO COMPROMISE. the following would be a big bonus:

13.conflict resolver
14.adventurous (hiking, camping, boating, etc)
15. general understanding of psychology (masters or Phd would be a plus)
16.able to forgive, adapt
17.organized, systematic but not over the top
18. emotionally generous (esp. w me)..but not gushy (yuk!)
19. Desire for strong family life (family mission statement, empowering children to become emotionally mature young adults)
20.Financially responsible, but willing to "let go" from time to time for adventure/fun
21.curious (about the world, life)

MUST NOT HAVES: (in no real order..havent had time to work on these much)
-flirtyness (needing approval from men)
-dependent (on me for happiness)
-lying (no way!)
-childish
-intruding family/friends
-extremely shy
-television junkie
-unable to accept blame/denying
-holdes grudges (makes for an angry, withered lover)
-self-centered
-infidelity (keep it in-house)
-materialistic

i dont want much

jisnowhere added to this post, 11 minutes and 7 seconds later...

if i were you i'd do some reading on the difficulties associated with pairing with your exact opposite (an enfp is ur exact opposite)..some may disagree, but there is a growing body of research that indicates that being matched with someone who is greatly similar to you strongly increases your chances of success in the relationship.

how many enfp's would u naturally become great friends with? they love and need people..you love and need alone time (much more than any E will ever need or want)..they arent detailed, and are very carefree..the differences between you - though perhaps intriguing at first, would no doubt madden the greatest saint among us..they say opposites attract, but from previous generations we can observe, that, yes, they attract, then they attack.

That list is way too long dude, I think you are making it more difficult than actually it is and than necessary.