What do job recruiters/HR people think about INTJs?

[DanAir]

Just curious what the "head hunters" think or do when they encounter an INTJ type. Would they even consider MBTI type? Any thoughts or experiences?

[Hypomanic]

Well, it depends on the type of job recruiter. MBTI code could be used for or against you.. or it could be used to understand you, the dynamics you'll likely bring to their team.

Needless to say I want to be my own boss.

[Emma]

Still a student, but I don't think any HR person aware of the MBTI would consider favorably an INTJ over, say, any extroverted type.

I have been doing an internship for the past two months, and I was quite disgruntled to realise that my lack of social skills was very frowned upon by the Powers that Be (aka my superiors, Heaven knows how much I dislike this word :yuck:). As a feedback of my one-month of internship, I was instead given a thorough lecture on my "stiffness", "how I would not indulge in chit-chat with my superior first time in the morning, asked her how her week-end was" (these are her very words:cry:) and instead asked for what needed to be done today. I felt ;) I was critised for something that had nothing to do with my work.

Fortunately, I don't think that the Myerss-Briggs test is well-known in the French firms (I don't know for the American or British ones), but from what I have gathered about the popularity of "collective interviews" to check how the applicants react within a group, INTJs are in for a hell of (insert curse word of choice here).

[GOD]

Just curious what the "head hunters" think or do when they encounter an INTJ type. Would they even consider MBTI type? Any thoughts or experiences?

It depends on what the role they are headhunting for.

Good headhunters actually understand what type of "relative" profile you fit into without formally making you sit some "psychological test".

If you are good enough to be head hunted then you are probably good enough to beat the system.

Beating the system brings extraverted thinking into reality.

[Max T]

Placing the 'personality' questionnaires on a spectrum between fairly rigorous (Belbin, MBTI) to simple (any old set of questions) and away from headhunted roles to ordinary HR recruiting for junior management jobs, the only profiling questionnaires I've done were v. basic.

Nevertheless, the questions probably picked up a few INTJ traits such as 'independent-minded', 'low consideration for authority' and 'prefers to work alone'... I've failed in the two taken.
Sure, you could fake other traits, but then you risk being placed into an unsuitable job.

[GOD]

Still a student, but I don't think any HR person aware of the MBTI would consider favorably an INTJ over, say, any extroverted type.

I have been doing an internship for the past two months, and I was quite disgruntled to realise that my lack of social skills was very frowned upon by the Powers that Be (aka my superiors, Heaven knows how much I dislike this word :yuck:). As a feedback of my one-month of internship, I was instead given a thorough lecture on my "stiffness", "how I would not indulge in chit-chat with my superior first time in the morning, asked her how her week-end was" (these are her very words:cry:) and instead asked for what needed to be done today. I felt ;) I was critised for something that had nothing to do with my work.

Fortunately, I don't think that the Myerss-Briggs test is well-known in the French firms (I don't know for the American or British ones), but from what I have gathered about the popularity of "collective interviews" to check how the applicants react within a group, INTJs are in for a hell of (insert curse word of choice here).

Extraversion matters more at lower levels. And it can also matter more at the most senior levels.

Where an INTJ wins is in the middle or as an advisor to senior mgt.

INTJ's win when they work for other INTJ's. I'm doing commercial things in some of the most creative industries and I'd rather have an INTJ doing creative things than a so called creative person. (Creative people are usually such through a default of not being good enough to succeed in the higher academic pursuits). INTJs are high on common sense.

Biggest problem for INTJs is that there's not enough around. Hence, corporates are always going to not have an INTJ culture. You'll probably enjoy hanging around the ISTJs more. ISTJs are numerous in IT/Accountancy and other Math orientated environments. They are also easy to manage.

In most organizations there are always senior management that want my scalp. I am their nemesis... But, there's always some senior management that provides me top cover. (Probably because I do what they think).

INTJ's in corporates need to find the others and cluster so they can bring that wave of change. I always look for those interconnections.... NT's and ISTJs.

Nb: I don't even make excuses anymore for *not* attending work functions. I just tell them straight out that there's no point me accepting because I won't turn up. I tell them its nothing personal but I just can't be bothered. I do however do social networking which entails having beers with small groups of people in the firm where we talk about problem solving.

[mind_wander]

Extraversion matters more at lower levels. And it can also matter more at the most senior levels.

Where an INTJ wins is in the middle or as an advisor to senior mgt.

INTJ's win when they work for other INTJ's. I'm doing commercial things in some of the most creative industries and I'd rather have an INTJ doing creative things than a so called creative person. (Creative people are usually such through a default of not being good enough to succeed in the higher academic pursuits). INTJs are high on common sense.

Biggest problem for INTJs is that there's not enough around. Hence, corporates are always going to not have an INTJ culture. You'll probably enjoy hanging around the ISTJs more. ISTJs are numerous in IT/Accountancy and other Math orientated environments. They are also easy to manage.

In most organizations there are always senior management that want my scalp. I am their nemesis... But, there's always some senior management that provides me top cover. (Probably because I do what they think).

INTJ's in corporates need to find the others and cluster so they can bring that wave of change. I always look for those interconnections.... NT's and ISTJs.

Nb: I don't even make excuses anymore for *not* attending work functions. I just tell them straight out that there's no point me accepting because I won't turn up. I tell them its nothing personal but I just can't be bothered. I do however do social networking which entails having beers with small groups of people in the firm where we talk about problem solving.

As for the ISTJ and INTJ working, as one; ISTJ's are very quiet, but they are really good at note taking, etc. Ask them to do it, not a problem; kinda like the INTJ's. The only difference, we do much more; the all-in-one.

In my previous Internship, I did received positive comments, that I am really odd, but not too hard to work with; although the negative side is not chit-chatty, but more straight to the punch.

[Santana28]

well, as a supposedly "uneducated" non-college-educated female INTJ... the interview process has been interesting for me, and a complete contrast to my actual working experience.

I have learned to play the role of an ENTJ during interviews - i come across as extremely confident, self-assured, a "team-player" (HA!), blah blah blah. I've only had one interview in my entire life where i just wasn't "in the zone" and failed to completely sweep the feet out from under them with my charm and intelligence. The only part of an interview that i have difficulty with are the greetings and exits..you know... those old social norms. And i also tend to choke up when i am asked "So tell me about yourself." But other than that, i am as smooth as silk.

Now of course... every job i have ever had, i have immediately been promoted and gotten relatively huge raises... only to be fired/laid off/etc less than 2 years later. My current job is the only one i have felt a sense of reward and satisfaction in, and is also coincidentally the only one i have had no problem keeping... Its very difficult being the person who destroys every other person's expectations on a daily basis. I am the cute, young girl who can pick up anything and master it in less time than it took you to read the manual... i am the socially awkward person who hates small talk and prefers to work alone... i am the employee who works so fast and so furiously that they constantly RUN OUT OF work and are always pestering you in search of new assignments... i am the employee who doesn't comprehend the flow of office politics and eventually is swept up under them and out the door without even knowing it was coming... i was too busy working to pay attention to it...

The problem for me is, and i'm not trying to sound arrogant - but i have the mindset and intelligence of a bright, higher-educated male, as well as the work ethic of a mule - and i'm thrown into the body of a little county girl with a high school edumacation doing remedial work a monkey (or illegal immigrant) could do. I'm not implying at all that you have to have a college education in order to be smart and capable - but it seems, sadly, that the hiring managers would rather let an expensive piece of paper tell them the intelligence and capability of their new hire rather than anything established as fact. ::sigh::

[mind_wander]

well, as a supposedly "uneducated" non-college-educated female INTJ... the interview process has been interesting for me, and a complete contrast to my actual working experience.

I have learned to play the role of an ENTJ during interviews - i come across as extremely confident, self-assured, a "team-player" (HA!), blah blah blah. I've only had one interview in my entire life where i just wasn't "in the zone" and failed to completely sweep the feet out from under them with my charm and intelligence. The only part of an interview that i have difficulty with are the greetings and exits..you know... those old social norms. And i also tend to choke up when i am asked "So tell me about yourself." But other than that, i am as smooth as silk.

Now of course... every job i have ever had, i have immediately been promoted and gotten relatively huge raises... only to be fired/laid off/etc less than 2 years later. My current job is the only one i have felt a sense of reward and satisfaction in, and is also coincidentally the only one i have had no problem keeping... Its very difficult being the person who destroys every other person's expectations on a daily basis. I am the cute, young girl who can pick up anything and master it in less time than it took you to read the manual... i am the socially awkward person who hates small talk and prefers to work alone... i am the employee who works so fast and so furiously that they constantly RUN OUT OF work and are always pestering you in search of new assignments... i am the employee who doesn't comprehend the flow of office politics and eventually is swept up under them and out the door without even knowing it was coming... i was too busy working to pay attention to it...

The problem for me is, and i'm not trying to sound arrogant - but i have the mindset and intelligence of a bright, higher-educated male, as well as the work ethic of a mule - and i'm thrown into the body of a little county girl with a high school edumacation doing remedial work a monkey (or illegal immigrant) could do. I'm not implying at all that you have to have a college education in order to be smart and capable - but it seems, sadly, that the hiring managers would rather let an expensive piece of paper tell them the intelligence and capability of their new hire rather than anything established as fact. ::sigh::

I know what u mean. It basically a body mixed match, just because your a little country girl, does not mean your stupid. Pretty much, put up a fake picture, but underneath it has so many gizmo's and gadgets, which gets the job done within a few minutes.

[elsdfr]

Funny you bring it up because I had a strange experience that I never understood.

I was working for a large company a year or four ago and I'd somehow managed to get in the backdoor with out the usual grilling they gave people.. then about a year in they pulled me up for IQ/psych exams for other positions they had going in the company, they where team based, needless to say I didn't get them. They even made me take the test twice and wouldn't tell me why, there was something like 200 questions in it as well. No idea if it was MBTI based but it was very similar from memory. Mind you I had no idea of MBTI at the time either.

Anyway, they ended up moving me to a completely different position in a new building with new people then moved me AGAIN after about either months there. I kinda got tired of the whole corporate remote control culture by that stage and quit soon after because obviously my requests where not getting heard.

Well thats my experience, pitty I didn't get feedback as to why they did it... but they did and I can't think why they might have either but I'm pretty sure the test triggered it.

[GOD]

As for the ISTJ and INTJ working, as one; ISTJ's are very quiet, but they are really good at note taking, etc. Ask them to do it, not a problem; kinda like the INTJ's. The only difference, we do much more; the all-in-one.

In my previous Internship, I did received positive comments, that I am really odd, but not too hard to work with; although the negative side is not chit-chatty, but more straight to the punch.

I've actually got quite a lot of repect for the techie ISTJ's... they complement what I want to do very very very well. I have an idea :idea: I need to extract this and that info from the systems.. ISTJ to the rescue.. diligent and knowledgeable in depth about a topic.. I need different info.. a different ISTJ to the rescue.

I actually see ENTJ's and xNTP's as competition and likely to steal my ideas and claim as their own... its been done many a time before.



The problem for me is, and i'm not trying to sound arrogant - but i have the mindset and intelligence of a bright, higher-educated male, as well as the work ethic of a mule - and i'm thrown into the body of a little county girl with a high school edumacation doing remedial work a monkey (or illegal immigrant) could do. I'm not implying at all that you have to have a college education in order to be smart and capable - but it seems, sadly, that the hiring managers would rather let an expensive piece of paper tell them the intelligence and capability of their new hire rather than anything established as fact. ::sigh::

Yes, qualifications do matter... you have to play the game. Its conforming by the mighty J. If you'd gone to college you'd have gone through the grinder which would have taught you conformance. (Its an educational labotomy).

As a child my parents always told me about getting an education so I didn't have to work as hard as them... However, I do actually work as hard as them... just that at least I get adequate reward.

[Henry]

Extraversion matters more at lower levels. And it can also matter more at the most senior levels.

Where an INTJ wins is in the middle or as an advisor to senior mgt.

INTJ's win when they work for other INTJ's. I'm doing commercial things in some of the most creative industries and I'd rather have an INTJ doing creative things than a so called creative person. (Creative people are usually such through a default of not being good enough to succeed in the higher academic pursuits). INTJs are high on common sense.

Biggest problem for INTJs is that there's not enough around. Hence, corporates are always going to not have an INTJ culture. You'll probably enjoy hanging around the ISTJs more. ISTJs are numerous in IT/Accountancy and other Math orientated environments. They are also easy to manage.

In most organizations there are always senior management that want my scalp. I am their nemesis... But, there's always some senior management that provides me top cover. (Probably because I do what they think).

INTJ's in corporates need to find the others and cluster so they can bring that wave of change. I always look for those interconnections.... NT's and ISTJs.

Nb: I don't even make excuses anymore for *not* attending work functions. I just tell them straight out that there's no point me accepting because I won't turn up. I tell them its nothing personal but I just can't be bothered. I do however do social networking which entails having beers with small groups of people in the firm where we talk about problem solving.

Conjecture

I detest working with SJs, particularly the slavish ISTJ, as "those are the rules" and "we do it that way because the boss says so" and "we do it that way because we've always done it that way" settle, in their mind, 95% of questions that arise. Sure, they make good employees if you are an inept manager, but that's because they'll accept nearly anything, no matter how stupid, from a person who's "higher up" than they are.

[GOD]

Conjecture

I detest working with SJs, particularly the slavish ISTJ, as "those are the rules" and "we do it that way because the boss says so" and "we do it that way because we've always done it that way" settle, in their mind, 95% of questions that arise. Sure, they make good employees if you are an inept manager, but that's because they'll accept nearly anything, no matter how stupid, from a person who's "higher up" than they are.

Yes, you don't want to be a peer in an ISTJ group.... for exactly the reasons you mention. Still though... to get up to managing them you do need to work as a peer with them firstly....

Problem is that most academic quals now do actually favor them... seriously. University is just a turkey processing plant...it used to be place for "free range" ;D thinking.

[sw7104]

My company, a 10,000 employee data services provider, uses the MBTI extensively, especially at the upper levels in the company (which is how I found out I was an INTJ). HR claims that most of our managers come from "the four corners" of the MBTI, of which INTJ in one. And my current position -- Enterprise Storage Architect -- is about as INTJ a job as you can get.

[Santana28]

Yes, qualifications do matter... you have to play the game. Its conforming by the mighty J. If you'd gone to college you'd have gone through the grinder which would have taught you conformance. (Its an educational labotomy).

As a child my parents always told me about getting an education so I didn't have to work as hard as them... However, I do actually work as hard as them... just that at least I get adequate reward.

well, what would you say is better - going into debt for several years in order to pay for an education on a subject that 1) i probably won't stick with or have extended interest in, 2) i could learn hands-on anyways and still do better than the majority of my peers... or learning things for free while gaining hands on experience?

if i could have went to college. my mother left when i was young, and my father was basically intimidated and jealous of me and personally sabotaged any chance i had at college. i was thrown out and homeless for several years (during and after high school), had a major illness, and since then haven't had any jobs that could put more than Ramen noodles on the table and keep me out of a homeless shelter. any chance i have had at bettering myself has been squashed when employers find out i don't have that "piece of paper."

in a perfect world i'd like to go to college to learn things i am genuinely interested in - philosophy, world history, language, etc... but none of those subjects would do me any good in the real world. and i can't justify to myself going into debt to "learn" about subjects i am perfectly capable of learning on my own time.

i am also extremely jaded against the way our current system handles people in my situation - i seek no "reward" or special attention - i am more capable than the majority of people out there, and instead of judging me on that i am judged by my parent's past and my current financial status. that pisses me off. when i am pissed off, i can't play along.

[mind_wander]

I've actually got quite a lot of repect for the techie ISTJ's... they complement what I want to do very very very well. I have an idea :idea: I need to extract this and that info from the systems.. ISTJ to the rescue.. diligent and knowledgeable in depth about a topic.. I need different info.. a different ISTJ to the rescue.

I actually see ENTJ's and xNTP's as competition and likely to steal my ideas and claim as their own... its been done many a time before.

I never felt like ENTJ's competing with me, if it was a team project; its more on the lines, "hey, how can we make this happen?" You do the first side and I do the second side. Bingo its all done.

[Max T]

well, what would you say is better - going into debt for several years in order to pay for an education on a subject that 1) i probably won't stick with or have extended interest in, 2) i could learn hands-on anyways and still do better than the majority of my peers... or learning things for free while gaining hands on experience?

if i could have went to college. my mother left when i was young, and my father was basically intimidated and jealous of me and personally sabotaged any chance i had at college. i was thrown out and homeless for several years (during and after high school), had a major illness, and since then haven't had any jobs that could put more than Ramen noodles on the table and keep me out of a homeless shelter. any chance i have had at bettering myself has been squashed when employers find out i don't have that "piece of paper."

in a perfect world i'd like to go to college to learn things i am genuinely interested in - philosophy, world history, language, etc... but none of those subjects would do me any good in the real world. and i can't justify to myself going into debt to "learn" about subjects i am perfectly capable of learning on my own time.

i am also extremely jaded against the way our current system handles people in my situation - i seek no "reward" or special attention - i am more capable than the majority of people out there, and instead of judging me on that i am judged by my parent's past and my current financial status. that pisses me off. when i am pissed off, i can't play along.
Yes I can empathise with you Santana28.

But there are strategies that could reduce the importance of formal qualifications.
What are formal qualifs for? mainly they're a risk reduction measure for HR. You can reduce perceived risk in two ways.

1. One way would be to focus on an area for several years and become the expert. Position yourself as the expert by giving speeches, lectures, writing articles... even consult to multiple companies on your specialism. In five years that would make no uni qualifications largely irrelevant.

2. Another way would be to work your way up a company (doesn't have to be a large one). If you truly are good at what you do (I have no doubt), the company would have little risk in promoting you since you're a known and safe quantity.

Both ways greatly reduce other peoples need to see formal qualifications.

Reason I empathise is that my undergrad degree was from a rubbish third rate university which prevented me from pursuing two true passions of strategy consulting or, later, investment banking. So investing-wise I manage 4 others money to gain a small track record and will take a basic certificate to gain regulatory permission to start a tiny fund in 2012. Similarly with the strategy consulting plan, it's all very small scale and no doubt the pros in each field would sneer, but hugely satisfying.

So think of ways to reduce recruiter risk and make a plan. Perhaps more importantly short-term, don't let it eat into you- little worse in a company than a negative person. Like you say, a pissed off person doesn't play (with the company).
The real rainmakers in life don't need formal qualifications, and like I said before, self-taught people invariably know their stuff soooo much better than the grads in many fields.

[Santana28]

you're right - i have a hard time focusing. but at the same time you must realize that the only jobs i am "qualified" for are remedial jobs. It only takes so long to master the details. Many times instead of being impressed by my work ethic or attention to details, my "superiors" (generally men) are intimidated. I literally work myself out of a job... i was hired on for a special project at an architecture firm that was supposed to take 6 months - i completed it in 3 weeks, with half as many errors as the person who had did it the year previously. Things like that. People tell me to slow down and I simply can't function that way - If i am not working at the rate of my mind, then I am struggling and absent-minded. Eventually after I spend the time pestering folks for new things to do, they get tired of it... or the higher-ups catch wind and say "Well, if we don't have any work for her...why did we hire her?" Or... I do my very best to cope with nothing to do, and I hop on the internet to literally stay awake. Mind you, i'd much rather be working but i Had already done a day's work in under an hour... so I'm bored. Then comes the inevitable "You're not doing any work, you just sit on the internet all day! You're fired young lady!" I can't take this anymore - I'm literally traumatized. I won't step foot into another office environment again for the sake of bullsh*t like this. And besides, i like getting my hands dirty anyways.

The problem arises when employers go to promote me or give me a raise - and then I get an unequal raise or no promotion because by company rules i must have an "education" to earn such benefits.

I'm currently working in law enforcement. For once i'm actually working in a position that doesn't make me feel like a dirty, worthless whore slaving my life away one dollar bill at a time. I'm actually doing something good. But in order to get a job in half of the departments, i'll need a degree. In order to get a promotion, i'll need a degree. In order to make more money doing the same things as other people in my situation, i'll need a degree. It offends me.

[Max T]

Thought about your situation some more...

You could simply study for a degree, perhaps part time to ease the financial strain, when you feel you've found a subject you think you could work in for a couple of decades.

Or, as mentioned, don't get a degree and instead build a reputation in a tight niche/ work upwards slowly within a company AND study how to get promotions/ promote yourself to others- as an INTJ I'm terrible with office politics and certain interpersonal skills to gain promotion. Master these skills with 'INTJ work mode' and you could be dynamite (the link below will get the ball rolling).

Alternatively, think laterally- you don't have to take 'remedial' jobs advertised but perhaps try to make a job. Don't think making a job and becoming self-employed is "consulting" and requires years of experience... many people go freelance with their skills and don't have years of experience.
For example, you did a special project at an architect's firm faster and better than others before. What are the common areas to that work that you could repeat at other architect firms? Architect firms have limited human resource but volatile customer demand, so your freelance skills could be very useful to the hundreds of architect firms when they need extra input. And one day an architect will think "we mustn't let her go"...

Also, you talk in terms of working yourself out of a job, and completing work well within the allotted time period. I understand jobs like that- finite/ terminal jobs with little room for progression.
But you're on the brink of escaping them (perhaps in law enforcement) and into jobs where expertise and creativity can grow the job into a long-term tenure and, even better, develop into how you want to do the job. Perhaps next week start thinking about how you could add more value in your current role and tactfully chat about this with your employer.

Finally, read this great story about some 29 year old bum with $100 of savings called Sylvester Stallone:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
... and then click and read the other articles- any job articles written by Wall Street Journal for its "high-flying" audience are definitely worth reading.

[GOD]

well, what would you say is better - going into debt for several years in order to pay for an education on a subject that 1) i probably won't stick with or have extended interest in, 2) i could learn hands-on anyways and still do better than the majority of my peers... or learning things for free while gaining hands on experience?

if i could have went to college. my mother left when i was young, and my father was basically intimidated and jealous of me and personally sabotaged any chance i had at college. i was thrown out and homeless for several years (during and after high school), had a major illness, and since then haven't had any jobs that could put more than Ramen noodles on the table and keep me out of a homeless shelter. any chance i have had at bettering myself has been squashed when employers find out i don't have that "piece of paper."

in a perfect world i'd like to go to college to learn things i am genuinely interested in - philosophy, world history, language, etc... but none of those subjects would do me any good in the real world. and i can't justify to myself going into debt to "learn" about subjects i am perfectly capable of learning on my own time.

i am also extremely jaded against the way our current system handles people in my situation - i seek no "reward" or special attention - i am more capable than the majority of people out there, and instead of judging me on that i am judged by my parent's past and my current financial status. that pisses me off. when i am pissed off, i can't play along.

Well, challenges are just that. Yes, it seems that there are obvious things that have put huge obstacles in your way.

But, you have to believe that you are smart enough and determined enough to overcome them. I'd say it sounds like you have the determination... but just make sure it’s channeled into achieving the victory and not about fighting battles with everyone.

You cannot make excuses for why you shouldn't go to college its either you want to go because you can see the benefits or you don't go because you believe you can do better without it. But you can't say that you should earn a college salary yet college is a waste of time. (My college education has paid for itself well and truly - I started saving for it when I was 14 and I paid myself through, my parents were just hard working blue collar people).

Yes, there are plenty of courses at college that are a complete waste of time. You probably would get a whole heap more out of it being a bit older and choosing your destiny more wisely than a school graduate.

While your past is unfortunate, tomorrow is another day and you are free to begin stepping up to where you believe you should attain.

But seriously, I think you'll need to learn conformance...? It’s the biggest thing I had to teach myself.... If you're feisty you'll be undermining people who can help you... and worse of all they can work against you.

[GOD]

I never felt like ENTJ's competing with me, if it was a team project; its more on the lines, "hey, how can we make this happen?" You do the first side and I do the second side. Bingo its all done.

Difference is, that I generate good ideas and can see things that all the dumb witted majority could never even envisage.

ENTJs to me, are just lazy potential INTJs that use Extroversion for an easier ride in life. Extroversion can earn you more in a company thats for sure, and if you rip of other peoples ideas you have all bases covered.

If you've never seen that... then you've not been the one generating the ideas/solutions.

[Henry]

Yes, you don't want to be a peer in an ISTJ group.... for exactly the reasons you mention. Still though... to get up to managing them you do need to work as a peer with them firstly....

An excellent point. I can't stand working with or for them. I'm in a position that pays a very decent sum of money for a total time involvement (including drive time) of about 7 hours per day, but I report to a string of STJs and they drive me LOCO and CRAZY with their "I don't care how stupid or inefficient this is, this is how we do it" and "I'm the boss, so do it biatch" mentality. Don't have the patience to work with this shit for 5 years to get there?

Problem is that most academic quals now do actually favor them... seriously. University is just a turkey processing plant...it used to be place for "free range" ;D thinking.

Depends on the university, the program, and the professor. A lot of the "higher ranked" programs are exactly this, but I always found that the professors, no matter how ideologically extreme, always appreciated a paper from a differing viewpoint if it is well reasoned and supported. The bar is a bit higher, but taking a position different from theirs that stops and makes them think will almost always get you an A+, if only to prove what free thinkers they are.

Only exception I found to this are the very radical feminists who, in my view, do not have a strong philosophical or political position and so can't handle even the slightest opposing viewpoint. I am a moderate feminist myself in that I support individual freedoms and oppose the overt or covert domination of one gender by another.

[GOD]

you're right - i have a hard time focusing. but at the same time you must realize that the only jobs i am "qualified" for are remedial jobs. It only takes so long to master the details. Many times instead of being impressed by my work ethic or attention to details, my "superiors" (generally men) are intimidated. I literally work myself out of a job... i was hired on for a special project at an architecture firm that was supposed to take 6 months - i completed it in 3 weeks, with half as many errors as the person who had did it the year previously. Things like that. People tell me to slow down and I simply can't function that way - If i am not working at the rate of my mind, then I am struggling and absent-minded. Eventually after I spend the time pestering folks for new things to do, they get tired of it... or the higher-ups catch wind and say "Well, if we don't have any work for her...why did we hire her?" Or... I do my very best to cope with nothing to do, and I hop on the internet to literally stay awake. Mind you, i'd much rather be working but i Had already done a day's work in under an hour... so I'm bored. Then comes the inevitable "You're not doing any work, you just sit on the internet all day! You're fired young lady!" I can't take this anymore - I'm literally traumatized. I won't step foot into another office environment again for the sake of bullsh*t like this. And besides, i like getting my hands dirty anyways.

The problem arises when employers go to promote me or give me a raise - and then I get an unequal raise or no promotion because by company rules i must have an "education" to earn such benefits.

I'm currently working in law enforcement. For once i'm actually working in a position that doesn't make me feel like a dirty, worthless whore slaving my life away one dollar bill at a time. I'm actually doing something good. But in order to get a job in half of the departments, i'll need a degree. In order to get a promotion, i'll need a degree. In order to make more money doing the same things as other people in my situation, i'll need a degree. It offends me.

Sounds like you need to get day release from work and study.

Public sector are notourious for paying according to quals. Its the way they justify that they can pay on various scales. Its the way it is. As the Borg say... "You must assimilate".

[GOD]

Depends on the university, the program, and the professor. A lot of the "higher ranked" programs are exactly this, but I always found that the professors, no matter how ideologically extreme, always appreciated a paper from a differing viewpoint if it is well reasoned and supported. The bar is a bit higher, but taking a position different from theirs that stops and makes them think will almost always get you an A+, if only to prove what free thinkers they are.

Only exception I found to this are the very radical feminists who, in my view, do not have a strong philosophical or political position and so can't handle even the slightest opposing viewpoint. I am a moderate feminist myself in that I support individual freedoms and oppose the overt or covert domination of one gender by another.

You are correct in the sense if I'd done less vocationally orientated courses then I'd have had the ability to utilize my intellect more. But I did what could generate me money. So I did accountancy and finance. (I used to advise a friend of mine who was studying philosophy... and he used to get A+'s in his essays :cool:).

Ahh... The feminist... I used to create arguments with them all the time.. Great fun...... it takes some good debating skills to come across as sincere and completely oblivious to what is deemed modern attitudes. (Like "how can you be a feminist, you're not ugly"). ;D

[rwyatt365]

Santana28, I understand you plight. I think that the average workplace environment doesn't understand, know how to utilize the INTJ approach to working. So, just like GOD, Henry and others have suggested we have to adapt and conform to some degree to the "way things are" in the workplace in order to progress.

As far as recruiters and HR people, and what they think about INTJs…my experience has been that when they get to actually meet me they tend to get somewhat intimidated. It's not that I am imposing, by any stretch of the imagination. But I always get the impression that people on "the other side of the table" get visibly flustered during the interview process. I don't play games either, my approach is to be straight forward, concise and direct to the questions asked (even the infamous "Tell me about yourself").

I've only encountered the use of MBTI once during an interview process. I was in line for a nice IT position with a bank in southern Texas when they whipped out their "Evaluation Test". I recognized it as being an MBTI variant. I don't know how they rated the results, but I suddenly was no longer a front runner after that. ;)

[Rei]

What head hunters think?
I have no clue.

Do they even consider MBTI?
I've heard of a few people actually learning about MBTI from their interviewers so I'm guessing some do consider personality tests.

[Santana28]

Thanks for the input guys.... "conformity" - what is that? Haha... but seriously. I would like to be able to pretend and conform. I'm probably much better at it now than i was several years ago when i had my last office job. That architecture gig? I only got that because i was specifically recommended by my instructor for it. I wouldn't have even got in the door otherwise.

I'm so conflicted about school. I honestly couldn't have went if i had really wanted to back when i was 18 - i was in a horrible place mentally, and was literally more concerned with staying alive on a daily basis than what major i wanted to take. which i would have had no clue about either, for that matter.

What bugs me is that i see what i do and i look at it objectively compared to what everyone else does and I am *so* valuable - i am so extremely efficient, i pick things up and master them *so* quickly... I had one job where i was basically used and abused and then tossed away. I give them some credit - they laid off 3/4 of the office and gave me their assignments in an effort to keep me occupied. The IT person left and i did that for several months. I helped with engineering. It was playing "receptionist" that was my downfall (well that, and discovering that the VP was buying ski vacations and furniture off of the capital account). But other than this job - i have been looked at as more of an annoyance than a value. People never stop to think about what is best for the company or the work at hand... they're always thinking about themselves first and foremost. I look beyond myself and concentrate on the work - and that gets me in trouble.

I really can't complain about my job currently. I like it a great deal. It gives me the freedom to make decisions and oversee myself for the most part. There are strict policies and procedures to adhere to, but everything else is up to you. Its a good break.

To be honest, i don't really care about material things - i dont care much about how much money that i'm making, so long as it is fair in relation to others doing comparable work. I'd start a business but i'm just not motivated to make money. Some day i'd like to write books... but i'll do that when i'm old :)

[Max T]

But other than this job - i have been looked at as more of an annoyance than a value. People never stop to think about what is best for the company or the work at hand... they're always thinking about themselves first and foremost. I look beyond myself and concentrate on the work - and that gets me in trouble.

Oh, I stand accused of this thinking too, as surely do many INTJs.

Presumably many INTJ's work ethic is "do what is best for the job/ company/system (and generally screw the people)".
Whereas the majority of workers are on the "how will others feel/ what's in it for me" side.

Trouble is, the more you work under that attitude, the more frustrated others become so they resist, resulting in you push/work harder... which annoys others even further.

A little smile, a "what did you do for the week-end?" chat and others become a lot more cooperative.

And some consideration of their feelings and perspective and people move from simply cooperating to actually being helpful to the INTJ cause.
So we've gone from one side of the spectrum to the other.



Some advice in this thread amount to coping strategies- good solid advice, but coping nevertheless- we make the organisation cope with our social inadequacies.

An amount of F and S development that trickily requires changing ourselves instead of making others cope, can surely pull us a long long way in any roles involving people (surely most jobs involve others).
So you in turn start earning what you should be worth and start doing what you're capable of.
(BTW this post is partly "self therapy"!!! :-)).

[Gaius Baltar]

Santana28,

I can completely empathize with what you're going through.

I did the college route for a while. 3.8 GPA, honors program, etc. I stopped though because it felt like I was just going through the motions and that I already have most of the knowledge and skills I was there for anyways. It was such a huge waste of time, money, and energy. Especially considering I had to work fulltime just to support myself through school.

I consider myself self-educated, and I feel that it was a far better education than the current system is capable of producing. Sadly, this method is not recommended for most, since most people are not disciplined or inquisitive enough to do this properly.

It's taken me a while, but I've gone my own path. It was rough at first, but I'm finally at the point where I'm starting to see real success. And yes, I've gotten into serious trouble in corporate America before. I've even gotten fired due to my INTJ traits.

Find your own path. Do not feel that you have to play by the system's rules, because the system will play you. Do not show it any loyalty because it will show you none. Make your own rules.

It's very difficult trying to do your own thing since this system is designed to make sure that everyone is a slave to it. However, finding your own path and achieving true independence is extremely rewarding and worth the time and effort. Especially for INTJs.

[INTJoe]

Recruiters probably hate INTJ's. Sorry, the truth (my opinion) needs to be said.

[deicruxified]

Just curious what the "head hunters" think or do when they encounter an INTJ type. Would they even consider MBTI type? Any thoughts or experiences?
as of now, here in the office i am the one conducting the tests and even introduced the mbti. when i first encountered an intj, the only thing that's on my mind was, "yey another guy with high ibm*." i am now happy that i am not alone here in the office this coming january.

btw, if you think i was biased in screening people, iw as the only person conducting the test then it's gonna be the bosses who decide if they're going to accept the applicant or not.

deicruxified added, 5 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

@ Santana & Max T

i do agree... i did a post long ago on how i "cleaned" the office in my previous job. i was a hannibal lecter at that time and was plotting a scheme to eradicate my supervisor.

work is such an ass... it also depends on the company if they really need intj's in the area. as for my new job, the bosses have a love-hate relationship with me:

love because...
- when i spot a problem, immediately tell them my speculated solution
- i get stuff done way before deadline
- i am rarely late

hate because...
- in relation to problems, i tell my boss he's a dimwitted numbnut and he needs massive brain reformatting. i'm that blunt.
- in relation to accomplishing stuff on time, i never accept other jobs as long as it doesn't fit my schedule so if it's in my schedule to go idle fr 5 hours, i will... and probably steal an hour from my idle time to finish the extra job.
- in relation to "rarely late", i have my own clock. sometimes i'm an hour early at work, sometimes i'm an hour late.

[GOD]

Lets face it. Most interviewers are rubbish.

I can look at a CV and tell whether someone is even worth interviewing in a few seconds.

I specifically told a college to absolutely not even interview a potential candidate... and they did and took that person on... what an absolute nightmare. S/He got pushed within 3 months.

[Amaranth]

Needless to say I want to be my own boss.

Same here.

If I have to have a boss (which is my situation now) it's better for it to be the person who actually owns the business, because they're more likely to make sensible decisions, be open to suggestions, and answer any questions I might have. The way I've seen it, the more layers of middle management are involved, the more priorities get distorted and egos get in the way.

[mrswentworth]

I would want to be a boss. And I hate to be interviewed.

[Meyer]

Conjecture

I detest working with SJs, particularly the slavish ISTJ, as "those are the rules" and "we do it that way because the boss says so" and "we do it that way because we've always done it that way" settle, in their mind, 95% of questions that arise. Sure, they make good employees if you are an inept manager, but that's because they'll accept nearly anything, no matter how stupid, from a person who's "higher up" than they are.

I see what your saying but I do however think that loyal footsoldiers such as these would prove very valuable. You probably wouldn't want to give them any "creative freedom", but somewhat important routine tasks might suit them nicely.

[deicruxified]

I see what your saying but I do however think that loyal footsoldiers such as these would prove very valuable. You probably wouldn't want to give them any "creative freedom", but somewhat important routine tasks might suit them nicely.
agree... i got an istj superior however it takes lots of time for him to get ideas because sj's tend to be detectives while nj's scientists. this was a scenario that happened a few weeks ago. the problem is whether to keep the old office or not. my idea is "to keep the office as of the mean time while we don't have a 'fallback' yet since we lack resources" then i support with facts... he on the other hand won't budge to the idea and scouts for himself the facts to get the idea. after a few days, he sends me a message saying an idea which is mine. a lot of people say he steals my ideas or he's slow but i keep on telling them that he's just different when it comes to problem solving and arriving at judgements.

:edit: istj's would believe you if they see you're that credible. i actually played mind games with my superior from time to time just for sick entertainment. he was looking for a certain shop which happens to be located at the building we're in but i made the instructions as complicated as possible so that he'd spend one hour to look for the shop which is actually just right behind him from the very beginning. hahaha evil. one of my buddy prof's is an istj and is a stirnerian freak. he won't budge against egoism but if you're good at bending ideas to incorporate with yours, he buys it.

[chessman]

From my experience, recruiters want outgoing people, which INTJ are not. Plus, all corporations want "team players" which most INTJ are not. And I am one person who does not kiss ass to get a job or keep a job. It's just not who I am.

[xanodel]

No wonder we're generally considered for the research positions...long hours, spent alone, with our minds.

Another idea is probably to get a nice NF boss. Had one whom I suspected was an NF for an internship, the guy never bugged me about times, so long as I got the work done, and understood my need for privacy to get my work done. I just learned to polish a smile for him and had quite a bit of relative liberty (only had to report to him once a week and dropped off work at his office other times).

[terencec]

well, what would you say is better - going into debt for several years in order to pay for an education on a subject that 1) i probably won't stick with or have extended interest in, 2) i could learn hands-on anyways and still do better than the majority of my peers... or learning things for free while gaining hands on experience?

if i could have went to college. my mother left when i was young, and my father was basically intimidated and jealous of me and personally sabotaged any chance i had at college. i was thrown out and homeless for several years (during and after high school), had a major illness, and since then haven't had any jobs that could put more than Ramen noodles on the table and keep me out of a homeless shelter. any chance i have had at bettering myself has been squashed when employers find out i don't have that "piece of paper."

in a perfect world i'd like to go to college to learn things i am genuinely interested in - philosophy, world history, language, etc... but none of those subjects would do me any good in the real world. and i can't justify to myself going into debt to "learn" about subjects i am perfectly capable of learning on my own time.

i am also extremely jaded against the way our current system handles people in my situation - i seek no "reward" or special attention - i am more capable than the majority of people out there, and instead of judging me on that i am judged by my parent's past and my current financial status. that pisses me off. when i am pissed off, i can't play along.

There are many smart people who never went to colleges. Personally, I agree what you said but in reality, it does not work very well.

For example, most engineering jobs require BS/MS or even PHD. I agree that some can do the job without degrees but who cares. Those no-degree people cannot even get the interview. You may think you can get hire as an operator, then promote to engineer and then promote chief engineer. However, in the real world, it is not only your ability to determine your success. it is how you play politics too. So, even you are good, you may never get any promotion. Also, you may never have a chance to prove you are good since you ask to do very simple tasks.

The tuition of colleges especially the private ones is very expensive. If one only wants to make money and is willing to do any job, I think it is better to work than go to college in general. Unless the professional can make a lot of money to justify the time and money one has to spend for the degree.

Medical is one of them I can justify to get a degree.





terencec added to this post, 12 minutes and 38 seconds later...

From my experience, recruiters want outgoing people, which INTJ are not. Plus, all corporations want "team players" which most INTJ are not. And I am one person who does not kiss ass to get a job or keep a job. It's just not who I am.

Totally agree. I have some much troubles because I am not so called "team players". I don't agree with my team/boss and express my opinions, of course don't kiss anybody ass even my boss.

Now,I learned my lesson. At least I pretended to be "team players". It sucks.