A Male Perspective on Female INTJs Getting Asked Out [Archive]

Vagrant

11-19-2008, 01:19 PM

So, in no way is this example meant to categorize the demographic of INTJ women, or demean them in any way or say there's something wrong with them. What I'm trying to illustrate though, is a potential example of why many men might be scared at the thought of dating an INTJ woman.

So, onto the story. *puts on storytelling hat*

There's a girl in my ecology class at college. I suspect she's INTJ or INTP, but I don't know her too well, and as such, can't give a precise guess. But her traits suggest INTx, anyway.

So I find her fairly attractive. Physically, she's cute, slightly shorter than me, brown hair, blue eyes, good physique. She appears to be roughly my age. No complaints at all there. The actual trouble comes when I'm trying to learn more about her. She's triple majoring, which is an intense amount of work. While they are all related to biology and chemistry (so not as much work as triple majoring in three completely unrelated fields), it is intimidating. She also is completely self-sufficient (no parental help), apparently monetarily able to support herself AND pay for college. She claims to have good grades too (or at least I got the impression better than mine)

As I learn these things, I find my initial attraction waning. So I think to myself, "Why?" So I compare myself. I'm a single major (biology) going for a minor in chemistry and a minor in photo. I have a job, but it's only part time (low pay) and nowhere near enough to pay for college. In fact, even with parental help, I still come up short about $5000 a year. And my schedule feels incredibly restrictive as is.

So when I start answering the "Why am I losing attraction?" question, it comes up with multiple answers:

In all regards, I appear inferior (lower grades, significantly less monetary income, and not triple majoring). There's obviously the pride aspect that plays a major role in losing attraction. But there's also the factor that I know that unequal relationships don't work.

However, I know when comparing the two of us, there's also a lot of things that go unmentioned. I'm an avid skateboarder, very active in my job, a gamer, and photographer. My minor in photo takes up a considerable amount of time. So objectively, she appears to be superior in all ways, but in the back of my mind, I know that that's not necessarily true. But the appearance can be more intimidating than the truth.

Time. When I consider a potential relationship, judging by her statements, she has no time available at all in her life. Which means even if she did consider me, I would be left emotionally unsatisfied because she simply wouldn't have the time input necessary to make the relationship work.
As an NT (I suspect), she also doesn't show if she's attracted very well. My best guess indicates she has a "maybe" on me.

When I consider those three answers, I have a pretty straightforward reason why I'm losing my attraction at such an incredible rate. Even though I find all these qualities attractive (because of being an INTJ), I find my base instincts winning over my INTJ personality.

Do any of the males or females here have a comment on how these answers may or not be true?

LionsPride

11-19-2008, 01:36 PM

In all regards, I appear inferior (lower grades, significantly less monetary income, and not triple majoring). There's obviously the pride aspect that plays a major role in losing attraction. But there's also the factor that I know that unequal relationships don't work.
Time. When I consider a potential relationship, judging by her statements, she has no time available at all in her life. Which means even if she did consider me, I would be left emotionally unsatisfied because she simply wouldn't have the time input necessary to make the relationship work.
As an NT (I suspect), she also doesn't show if she's attracted very well. My best guess indicates she has a "maybe" on me.

Do any of the males or females here have a comment on how these answers may or not be true?

1. You are assuming that she is using this criteria to gauge if you are a suitable mate. This criteria might only be of value to you. She might be thinking "I wish I knew a guy that makes me laugh" and has no interest in any of the other things you are measuring yourself by. So I think, while it's a reason why men don't approach INTJ women, I wouldn't encourage you to ever use this against yourself in approaching any woman

2. That's a good point. I think that good relationships can overcome this, but it's a good reason to not want to start something. Something something hard road.

3. That's possible. Flirtation for an INT is not a natural strength. That means that you may not get normal signals like eye contact. In some cases she could worship you and you would still feel like she considers you the same as an inanimate object. I wouldn't use this as a reason to not try, but would mark it as a potential obstacle.

Mylofian

11-19-2008, 01:45 PM

As far as appearing inferior, I don't know how much I would agree with that. I feel like we all have special interests that really define who we are and what we're good at, and this does not have to result in triple majoring or paying for your own college. As a male, I've found that I am able to find interest in whatever it is the girl is interested in. I'm not sure if this works in reverse, but I don't see why not. For example, I used to not know anything about fashion but I was with a girl for a while who wanted to go into fashion design. I learned about it and actually find it pretty interesting now. Basically what I'm saying is that just because you don't meet up to her in terms of taking on 3 majors and working full time, you do have qualities that she might actually be looking for. She may actually be more interested in your gaming or your skateboarding or your photography- something to get her off the topic of books and let her have a good time. As far as the full-time job and paying your own tuition, I don't think that she should really judge a guy based on that. Most of the people I know at college have their tuition paid for by their parents (including myself), but I wouldn't take that sort of thing into mind when looking for a girl. I'd focus much more on personality and appearance etc. In terms of not having time for a relationship, I would be cautious here. It definitely does suck to be with someone and you both be on very busy schedules. However, I don't think this would be reason enough to avoid trying to get to know her better in the first place. You should see what options come up after getting to know her and her schedule better before giving up just because of the time factor. As far as the third answer, I really can't be sure unless I knew the girl. However, I've found the best way to resolve any uncertainties is to go in and be upfront. Being an INTJ, this is often difficult as it may require a lot of courage to pursue a girl, but I find that it almost always pays off to know for sure what could, or couldn't, have been than to let the opportunity slip by.

Sinequanon

11-19-2008, 02:43 PM

dogwoodlover

11-19-2008, 03:00 PM

Do any of the males or females here have a comment on how these answers may or not be true?

Same situation, except more exaggerated, it was in high school, and my attractor was an ENFP.

She was trying to transfer to UCLA (which she did), had a 3.9 GPA, was taking three AP classes, danced at a studio for 10 hours a week, in which she spent most of her time preparing for her solo in the studio's end-of-the-year production, was the sole choreographer and the lead role of her school's theater production which required at least 10 hours a week during the normal school year and 20+ hours during tech week, and taught private tap-dancing lessons on the side.

On my side of the fence, I had a 0.8 GPA (high school), did NO physical activities whatsoever (stopped skateboarding about a year before), wanted to drop out of high school and become a squatter/train-hopper, and besides my computer programming I was doing at the time I had no activities outside of school.

She was a dancer with a packed schedule, I was a geek with all the time in the world on his hands.

That was three years ago, we're still dating, and everything is just peachy.

In regards to your question, I think its the dynamic between male and female INTJs. Personally, I've known 2 or 3 female INTJs, and they've all "intimidated" me, despite us being friends. I think its because they stand in such sharp contrast to the stereotypical ESFP female, that we impulsively think they don't approve or are critical of us, where as if we were interacting with a male INTJ, we wouldn't think anything was wrong or unusual (besides an exchange of intelligent ideas). I find female NT types to be unsettling in general--not because I don't like them, but because I'm just often taken aback by NT characteristics in women. However, a few of my "favorite" lady friends have been NTs.

For me at least, I'm just not accustomed to NT women (in RL).

I could be wrong, however.

EDIT: Another thought...

Though I've experienced strong attraction to ENTP women on more than one occasion, I think a primary motivation for me in the search for a relationship is emotional fulfillment. My books, ideas, and friends give me the intellectual stimulation I crave, but I feel like emotional fulfillment must be found elsewhere--namely, in a relationship. I think this is why I ultimately feel NFs are more suitable mates, rather than NTs. While I would be overjoyed to have a lover who could hold a debate during sex :p , I think I find more appeal in the emotional connection that can occur for an NT who's involved with an NF. Just a thought.

Vagrant

11-19-2008, 03:04 PM

This seems, to be blunt, like your own insecurity talking. If you can't deal with her being more academic/independent than you, how is that her problem? And if the shoe was on the other foot, do women not deal with the men in their life "accomplishing" more sometimes?

I mean, yes it's something of a reversal of "expectations", but then again so is the concept of an INTJ woman anyway. I'm sure there are a lot of unique pressures she's going through as well that your judging her for being academically outgoing isn't going to benefit. Why not just try being her friend and seeing where things go, and maybe admiring her strength and willpower?

I never said it is her problem. What I'm pointing out is a reason why most men would lose attraction.

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 03:23 PM

I mean, yes it's something of a reversal of "expectations", but then again so is the concept of an INTJ woman anyway.

Actually from this forum, most INTJ females, that I remember reading, have said they wanted a higher status male in a number of dimensions.

Sinequanon

11-19-2008, 03:30 PM

I never said it is her problem. What I'm pointing out is a reason why most men would lose attraction.
Then maybe it isn't your problem; take it as the more general "you", speaking to the basic question of the thread.

LionsPride

11-19-2008, 03:33 PM

Actually from this forum, most INTJ females, that I remember reading, have said they wanted a higher status male in a number of dimensions.

True, but they were asked what they wanted. Besides, what normal, balanced human says "I'd like someone sub par, you know, below average" when asked what they want? Yet, people still manage to date...

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 03:46 PM

True, but they were asked what they wanted. Besides, what normal, balanced human says "I'd like someone sub par, you know, below average" when asked what they want? Yet, people still manage to date...

The males haven't seemed to be so idealistic in their descriptions. Admittedly, I may have just been more sensitive to the female's descriptions.

Gabrielle

11-19-2008, 04:21 PM

It's interesting to note that this has very few posts from a female point of view. So here's my two cents (Mind, I am NOT a typical INTJ - I have very feminine traits that are not prevalent in other female INTJ's.)

I tend to be a high-flyer, and there is rarely a year when I'm not conned into doing some activity (conned, because I generally attempt to keep a low profile - that always get botched). Which means I am always running around the campus. My schedule book is always in my hand, and to top it off I'm in med school, which is a full-time task. I've always been like this; during high school I was juggling 4 AP classes every term and a few university classes (Junior and Senior year), was involved in 6 to 7 extracurriculars (4 of which were speech and debate, which takes about 3~4 hours a day).

My boyfriends have been classified as INFx (dunno whether he's a P or a J), and an INFP. Needless to say, they aren't juggling as much things as I am, which I greatly appreciated, for the following reason:

I need to relax.

Right now I'm a single girl so my relaxation consists of sleep and nothing else, but back when I wasn't a single girl I often hanged out with my boyfriends to relax and just chill. Some of these just involved us sitting together and saying absolutely nothing, or walking in the park, or sitting in Starbucks and chatting. They are at very good schools (INFx at Oxford and INTP at William and Mary), but they are quite laid back and are willing to let things come and go.

I also needed security; despite many factors I am quite insecure and I am prone to nervous breakdowns when small things fall apart, and I needed someone to fall back upon and reassure me that I'm just overreacting and the world isn't falling down by my ears (this stems from almost 100% J).

As for time, I usually allocated one or two days a week to meet them (INF was at a different school; INTP was a year below me). Trust me, it's not as difficult as it sounds. Of course, the one with MORE time probably has to make more compromises, but it's not impossible.

I wish you all of luck. I'm still friends with both of them (although there are awkward moments...), and I hope I'll continue this relationship, or at least this kind of friendship in the future. While we may appear to be confident, intelligent and used to pruning male egos, we (or at least I) want someone that I can lean upon when things go wrong. This does not need to be a high-flyer, just someone with two feet on the ground.

Allie

11-19-2008, 04:26 PM

ElstonGunn

11-19-2008, 04:36 PM

This seems, to be blunt, like your own insecurity talking. If you can't deal with her being more academic/independent than you, how is that her problem?

Because it's most likely keeping some men from developing an interest in her. That's assuming that she wants the interest of men to begin with, and she might not. Or she might only want the interest of men who wouldn't be bothered by that, or even of men who are even more allegedly "superior" to her.

In any event, it is narrowing her field of options. That could be bad because it limits her choices, or it could be good because it weeds out unsuitable candidates. Whichever way you want to look at it.

Sinequanon

11-19-2008, 04:38 PM

I think the intimidation/unsettling feeling men have for NT/INTJ women is mainly tied to the NT women's ability to see through you more than anything. This may not be concrete, but an intuitive reaction to something that seems like a threat to your private self, especially INTJ men. You cannot BS your way out of situations, but required to use all your mental capabilities to match and sustain that of the NT women's similar abilities.

You cannot hide behind your walls and come out whenever you want because the NT woman will be strong enough to get past your most private thoughts. That loss of, or threat against your mental control is worse than the loss of emotion the SF women presented.

So, all her academic or other achievements/capabilities may just be excuses for you to rationalize your way out of a perceived danger zone. Without that strong physical attraction or that powerful connection at all levels, you'll be able to build up your walls again, and edge yourself away from the potential pitfall....err...relationship ;D

Edit: Upon reviewing this: maybe I am projecting. This could work both ways...The INTJ men/women's struggle for control?
Speaking from personal experience, I can say that the problem isn't the seeing-through-me bit. I get that from many N types, no matter F or T. If I don't want to be seen through, then I'll leave. It's not that complicated. ;)

Still, though, I think there is something that can definitely be intimidating about a woman who is ambitious and accomplished. Maybe it's something primal, to the extent that women hold a large amount of sexual power (within a civilized society), and that, accompanied by a stronger drive to succeed, greater intelligence and the ability to see through us, is incredibly daunting. I personally don't like to be in competition with anyone for long (which is to say I make it as short and bloody as possible, win or lose). There is a certain catch-22 associated with fighting those sorts of battles with women. You're damned if you win (for "beating up on a girl") and damned if you lose (for "losing to a girl").

I suppose for myself I'm not so much looking for an intellectual equal as an intellectual complement. Someone who can accent and illuminate the darker corners of my own capacity to understand and relate to the world, who sees things from a unique and interesting perspective. The primary reason I don't really find myself attracted to NT women, in that respect, is that I worry that we will simply succumb to constant reaffirmation of what we already "know", and that we won't force each other to grow.

Those capabilities are far more desirable in a friend, a confidant or a counselor than they are in a romantic partner. Though I realize this really only speaks to this INTJs lack of romantic interest in INTJ women.
Because it's most likely keeping some men from developing an interest in her. That's assuming that she wants the interest of men to begin with, and she might not. Or she might only want the interest of men who wouldn't be bothered by that, or even of men who are even more allegedly "superior" to her.

In any event, it is narrowing her field of options. That could be bad because it limits her choices, or it could be good because it weeds out unsuitable candidates. Whichever way you want to look at it.
I understood that, what I'm saying is what is the solution? Should she "dumb" herself down so that she is appealing to more men? If this girl were my friend I would likely distance myself from her if I saw her doing that, for betraying who she really is.

My response really did speak to the OP's immaturity or insecurity (or a person who would have that issue, which, by the way, I might share as well), in that another person might say "Man, I'm tired of all of these women who don't accomplish anything, who aren't trying to do anything with their lives, and who don't try and make a difference", and be very attracted to someone as outgoing as the INTJ girl presented here is.

RichardCMongler

11-19-2008, 04:47 PM

Sir, you are overanalyzing the situation (gee, who would of thought? heh)

During my undergraduate studies (funny that we're both Biology majors), I did the exact same thing that you're doing, ad nauseam, until I was completely discouraged.

Now that I'm in Law school, I run into INTx type women every day. Yes, they are intimidating, but I'd be willing to wager that you are too.

I could distill an entire treatise to substantiate the following, but it would miss the point and defeat the purpose:

Stop thinking so much, be natural, talk to her, and if/when the time is right, make your intentions known.

Actually, one more thing - considering she's an INTJ, as you actually talk to her, I'm sure you'll both start some kind of intellectual discussion at one point (lol).

When that happens, and she brings up a genuinely intriguing point, don't just act as if you would towards any other friend doing the same. Instead, SMILE AT HER (very important in my experiences!), and make it known that you think she is brilliant, etc.

LionsPride

11-19-2008, 04:57 PM

The males haven't seemed to be so idealistic in their descriptions. Admittedly, I may have just been more sensitive to the female's descriptions.

I've noticed frequent use of the word "hot" from the males (presuming they were males...). Personally, I think "accomplished" is easier to attain than "hot". :)

Vagrant, I do agree that the discrepancy in status is intimidating and a likely reason why men (or women) don't approach others in pursuit of a relationship. The thing to note is the status you (or others like you) judge yourself on is all your own values and is often not the same as the values they would judge you on. Also, just to make it harder, you judge yourself on the values you perceive to be your weakest (as to your post). This is not unique to you, but does no one any favours and is not a true picture.

blackbetty

11-19-2008, 05:01 PM

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 05:02 PM

I've noticed frequent use of the word "hot" from the males (presuming they were males...). Personally, I think "accomplished" is easier to attain than "hot". :)

I just use hot to mean notably sexually appealing. Ever notice the vast range(s) described as hot? If I didn't prioritize cuteness (still in combination), I'd use it more myself. This one's hot is that one's 6 or even 4, thus the occasional arguments of rank.

LionsPride

11-19-2008, 05:06 PM

I just use hot to mean notably sexually appealing. Ever notice the vast range(s) described as hot? If I didn't prioritize cuteness (still in combination), I'd use it more myself. This one's hot is that one's 6 or even 4, thus the occasional arguments of rank.

That is true, just as "rich", "fit", and "good sense of humour" have various ranges to women as well.

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 05:44 PM

That is true, just as "rich", "fit", and "good sense of humour" have various ranges to women as well.

Rich and fit at least imply above a real average. Hot as I've stated denotes more of a subjective grouping.

ElstonGunn

11-19-2008, 05:54 PM

PRBori

11-19-2008, 06:03 PM

as a woman i am inclined to think the former is the issue. it seems that men are just generally insecure about being with a woman that is more successful than they are (if even on the surface)...there are still conventions of gender roles in modern society.
that being said-i would like it noted that am not a braless feminist ;)

Ditto... for personal reasons I prefer someone at my level or higher, not necessarily on education, but intelligence. I'm also very much attracted to risk takers, which to me are entrepreneurs...

Now this may differ from women to women... but the way I see it, only someone who has being in our shoes and close to our level would really understand and appreciate who we are...

My suggestion to you would be to figure out a way you can make yourself more independent, and try to close up to her level. You can approach her anytime, but for her to fully see you more than just a friend would probably take a while...

From my perspective, We (INTJ women) don't look for someone to support us for we are self-sufficient, but we do look for someone who is willing to build an empire together, to work as a couple to achieve the goals we have and build up a well grounded family environment... a well grounded foundation that will lead to a happier life and possibly early retirement...

Then again, that may be just me, and my personal view as to what I want this days..

OrrDavey

11-19-2008, 06:09 PM

I used to overthink this kind of stuff a lot as well. The best way to figure these things out is to learn it from her, not your head. You are working off a bunch of assumptions right now based on information that is way too incomplete.

Just pick something fun that you think she might want to do and a time that you think she will be available, and suggest doing it with her. Once you have her one on one in a different setting, it will be a lot easier to see what her level of interest is. And hopefully you will learn more about her goals and motivations, which will also tie into how interested she is in you.

If you think you are going to have trouble figuring out her goals and motivations, I have a very good method that I'll share with you in PMs. Just message me if you want it.

Edit: Oh, and if she declines an invitation to do something twice, write her off. If she was interested, she would make the time, especially if whatever it is you are going to do shouldn't take too long.

Lucid

11-19-2008, 06:13 PM

1. You are assuming that she is using this criteria to gauge if you are a suitable mate. This criteria might only be of value to you. She might be thinking "I wish I knew a guy that makes me laugh" and has no interest in any of the other things you are measuring yourself by. So I think, while it's a reason why men don't approach INTJ women, I wouldn't encourage you to ever use this against yourself in approaching any woman.

I'm an INT female and this is often the case for me. Because I am self-sufficient and independent, I don't need a care-giver or a provider. What I look for in a mate, specifically, are intelligence, physical attractiveness and someone who will make me laugh!

My last serious relationship was with someone who had a sub-par job and no higher education to speak of, but who was smart, rather self educated and REALLY funny. I certainly wouldn't think less of a potential mate who had less on his plate than I. How many hours he worked at what kind of job or how many subjects he was majoring in wouldn't even enter into the equation as far as I would be concerned. I tend to look more at whether I like spending time with them, whether I can have a good conversation with them and whether we have things in common.

LionsPride

11-19-2008, 06:24 PM

Rich and fit at least imply above a real average. Hot as I've stated denotes more of a subjective grouping.

I would disagree as average fitness and average wealth are still subject to the viewer. While there may be fitness standards (such as those used in the military) people don't generally judge a person's fitness when choosing a mate by adhering to those standards. I think most women I know use judgments like "look at the size of his arms", or "nice abs". In terms of wealth, it's not about "he makes more than the average male in town statistically speaking". It's usually based on a qualitative measure such as "I won't have to work" or "we can afford to go on vacation in Europe every year". I would offer that hot is subjective and men use their own personal measurement of what is average too, not what the national statistic is for average boob size (or other physical measurement).

as a woman i am inclined to think the former is the issue. it seems that men are just generally insecure about being with a woman that is more successful than they are (if even on the surface)...there are still conventions of gender roles in modern society.
that being said-i would like it noted that am not a braless feminist ;)

As to the gender discrepancies of men being intimidated by women of superior intellect or success as compared to women when the roles are reversed, I think that's true in many cases. Men tend to rank themselves against others on these levels and some feel these are the qualities they bring to a relationship. When they are bested by a woman (or perceive they are bested) they may feel insecure or even not needed (a male ardour killer if I ever saw one). If they find the qualities "unfeminine" then that can be the last nail in the coffin.

Lucid

11-19-2008, 06:40 PM

As to the gender discrepancies of men being intimidated by women of superior intellect or success as compared to women when the roles are reversed, I think that's true in many cases. Men tend to rank themselves against others on these levels and some feel these are the qualities they bring to a relationship. When they are bested by a woman (or perceive they are bested) they may feel insecure or even not needed (a male ardour killer if I ever saw one). If they find the qualities "unfeminine" then that can be the last nail in the coffin.

Yeah. And it can be really frustrating for (especially INTJ) females. To discover that the very things one has worked to cultivate in oneself and of which one is especially proud are actually a huge hindrance when it comes to dating is just mind boggling.
The fact that I can take care of myself turns men off?? The fact that I am intelligent and ambitious is a bad thing romantically? WTF???

Smotor

11-19-2008, 06:42 PM

The fact that I can take care of myself turns men off?? The fact that I am intelligent and ambitious is a bad thing romantically? WTF???

Darn those Disney princess movies!

blackbetty

11-19-2008, 06:46 PM

Calling it insecurity seems too simplistic to me. Is a woman who prefers taller men insecure about her femininity, or does she just have a preference (regardless of whether it's rational, irrational, or some of both)?

it is simplistic, it's a general thought that comes to mind as an initial reaction to this situation-especially considering it was stated outright as a potential cause. i'm not saying that IS the case, just that it's how it seems to me as a woman without knowing all the details of this scenario. it could be one of many factors that come into play here, but i was just stating my first impression on it as a member of the opposite sex. but i don't see the correlation between preference and insecurity in this case since there was an attraction at one point (possibly before all of her merits were fully realized). but hell, i'm no expert. as for your question, i couldn't say from a personal level because i really have no height preference-but i could see that it might be an issue in certain circumstances? never really considered that one.

i attempted to word it so that you all wouldn't overanalyze and question my comment, but i guess i didn't succeed :( i suppose this happens a lot here though.

LionsPride

11-19-2008, 06:47 PM

Darn those Disney princess movies!

Now if only fire breathing dragons came by mail order, INTJ women might finally get 'rescued' and asked out.

SeaCzar

11-19-2008, 06:48 PM

The fact that I can take care of myself turns men off?? The fact that I am intelligent and ambitious is a bad thing romantically? WTF???

I had to comment on this. I find this VERY attractive personally, but I know a lot of guys who are MOST put off by this. Perhaps they see it as some sort of threat? WTF is spot on here.

changos

11-19-2008, 06:50 PM

High "achievers" might be focus on the achievements or in simple things. Its up to you to find out what affects you - matter to you the most, and also, to find out about her on this. Many intjs here have done big things but care little about it, we just play around with the job we enjoy.

You mentioned college. By no means I think things are less important there, but trust me, wait until you and her are more settle down to go crazy about your path in life. Many things change and the priorities also change.

Inferior? not at all. Does it matter? YES. First let me say that a woman and a man (adults) only want to be loved after other priorities are fulfilled. But its up to you to find out. Some girls (and guys) already settled down only want to be loved, not maintained, they already are independent.

But don't underestimated, the importance of a partner might be oriented on not being a dead weight, also, moral, practical intelligence, discipline and fun enter the arena.

MANY, and I mean, MANY girls with the profile you mention make most of the guys feel scared. Does it matters if she is a high achiever? yes, you will face bad comments your whole life if you get married, it will challenge your self esteem, BUT, smart girls will see you as a very secure guy if you can handle going out with "the girl that scares the rest of the guys".

There is a lot to say about this, but being kinda old for this, yes, it all comes down again with the goals and interests you might share, being compatible or not.

(I've heard from two independent, beautiful and intimidating girls "I don't want a guy to compete or to work with (not even less to feed me) I want-need somebody to love me".

Yet again, let me kill the previous line making you THINK how the way of life of such girls actually CHANGE their lifestyle... LIFESTYLE.

Having more to say I will cut it here just warning you, be aware of workaholics, also with those students that fall into the category of "I have to prove my parents, the world, whatever... I can do this and that..." that is psychological programming, described as life with argument.

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 06:53 PM

Now if only fire breathing dragons came by mail order, INTJ women might finally get 'rescued' and asked out.

If magic came by mail, we'd all already be quite busy.

I had to comment on this. I find this VERY attractive personally, but I know a lot of guys who are MOST put off by this. Perhaps they see it as some sort of threat? WTF is spot on here.

If you're not very funny or much of conversationalist, removing the rest is not pleasant. It's not as a turn off, just that the situation is still warped-sided, and you're still stuck playing her game.

Lucid

11-19-2008, 07:24 PM

If you're not very funny or much of conversationalist, removing the rest is not pleasant. It's not as a turn off, just that the situation is still warped-sided, and you're still stuck playing her game.

Perhaps you could elaborate on this? Removing the rest of what? What game do you think I'm playing and why would anybody else be stuck playing it?

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 07:27 PM

Perhaps you could elaborate on this? Removing the rest of what? What game do you think I'm playing and why would anybody else be stuck playing it?

I meant the aforementioned status stuff. I was speaking generally in terms of the mating game.

Lucid

11-19-2008, 07:33 PM

I meant the aforementioned status stuff. I was speaking generally in terms of the mating game.

My question still stands. With respect, your posts can sometimes be vague because you don't specify what you're talking about. I think you need more nouns. :)

Removing the rest of what? Why do you assume that he is stuck playing her "game" and she isn't stuck playing his "game"? It's not like men who aren't somehow more successful or ambitious or self-sufficient than the woman in question have to be necessarily funny and a good conversationalist. Everyone likes different things. I personally prefer the above listed traits, but other women might prefer quiet and stoic, or any number of other traits.

Vagrant: Don't be intimidated by this girl. For christ's sake, you're a biology major with two minors, a job and many interests and hobbies. You have nothing to worry about. And I bet she's intimidating to a lot of men. She might even welcome the attention and be flattered by the advance (provided you aren't creepy or annoying about it - not that you would be) whether you two managed to get together or not.

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 07:53 PM

Removing the rest of what? Why do you assume that he is stuck playing her "game" and she isn't stuck playing his "game"? It's not like men who aren't somehow more successful or ambitious or self-sufficient than the woman in question have to be necessarily funny and a good conversationalist. Everyone likes different things. I personally prefer the above listed traits, but other women might prefer quiet and stoic, or any number of other traits.

This is not what I'm seeing or have ever seen. Those that say quiet and stoic tends toward wanting romantic nonsense at best which still is a game you'd have to play with one wrong word, and the affect is ruined. If nothing else, the numbers are horrible. Most women want similar things, those you mentioned and the previous things such as money and certain abnormal or at least highly volatile physical traits, which if you're not on the short list you're chances are horrible. Throw in a freak personality type among other related traits and the numbers bottom out. Playing the lottery to get the money status starts seeming a genuinely mathematically better chance at the whole thing. As to her playing his game, how often do you see a female chasing a male that doesn't have those rarified, normally valued traits in abundance?

ElstonGunn

11-19-2008, 07:55 PM

it is simplistic, it's a general thought that comes to mind as an initial reaction to this situation-especially considering it was stated outright as a potential cause. i'm not saying that IS the case, just that it's how it seems to me as a woman without knowing all the details of this scenario.

Fair enough, as long as you bear in mind that generalities only apply in general situations. Any given situation may not fit with a generality. But it sounds like that's what you're saying here.

but i don't see the correlation between preference and insecurity in this case since there was an attraction at one point (possibly before all of her merits were fully realized). but hell, i'm no expert.

What if you were attracted to someone, then you found out that he ate puppies or something, so you lost interest? Would that make you insecure about animal cruelty, or would you just lose attraction based on some personal trait of his?

I don't mean to compare ambition and self-sufficiency with something as bad as eating puppies since they're different (the former being only a preference and the latter being more of a moral issue), but I thought that would make my point clearer.

as for your question, i couldn't say from a personal level because i really have no height preference-but i could see that it might be an issue in certain circumstances? never really considered that one.

It doesn't have to be height. Take anything that you might have a preference against-- height, weight, hair color, political or religious beliefs, desire for having children, whatever. If there is an option among one of those things that that you don't like or find unattractive, is it because your insecure, or do you not like it because of some other reason altogether? For example, do you not like democrats or Christians because you're insecure about your own beliefs, or do their values not line up well with yours? And if that's the case, it's just a compatibility issue in which no one is "wrong," rather than one party being defective.

i attempted to word it so that you all wouldn't overanalyze and question my comment, but i guess i didn't succeed :( i suppose this happens a lot here though.

Probably. Some people are impulsive and don't think things through, other people over-analyze themselves into paralysis. Five bucks says you can guess which kind of person I am. ;)

Lucid

11-19-2008, 08:29 PM

This is not what I'm seeing or have ever seen. Those that say quiet and stoic tends toward wanting romantic nonsense at best which still is a game you'd have to play with one wrong word, and the affect is ruined. If nothing else, the numbers are horrible. Most women want similar things, those you mentioned and the previous things such as money and certain abnormal or at least highly volatile physical traits, which if you're not on the short list you're chances are horrible. Throw in a freak personality type among other related traits and the numbers bottom out. Playing the lottery to get the money status starts seeming a genuinely mathematically better chance at the whole thing. As to her playing his game, how often do you see a female chasing a male that doesn't have those rarified, normally valued traits in abundance?

I'm sorry that you've had such poor luck and so many bad experiences with women. Dating is hard for most people.
However, I think part of the problem is that you expect the things you have said to be true of most women. I think that if you let go of your confirmation bias for a bit you will find that it's genuinely not the case. Neither gender wants a partner who is unemployed and does nothing but play video games in his or her parents' basement, but things like wealth and status matter much less than you seem to think. I'd say that your biggest problem is a matter of self-confidence. In fact, that's the problem for many people who have trouble finding a mate. It's less about the fact that you don't meet X Y and Z criteria and more about the fact that insecurity is a very unattractive trait in anyone. Also, bitterness, anger and hostility are pretty much a turn off too.

Anyway, this is a thread about INTJ females and their trouble with dating. If you'd like to talk about your own problems in that arena you should start another thread. Not that I'm entirely unsympathetic.

Autoptic

11-19-2008, 08:40 PM

Neither gender wants a partner who is unemployed and does nothing but play video games in his or her parents' basement, but things like wealth and status matter much less than you seem to think.

I could be wrong, but males are considerable less apt to have a problem with that one.

I'd say that your biggest problem is a matter of self-confidence. In fact, that's the problem for many people who have trouble finding a mate. It's less about the fact that you don't meet X Y and Z criteria and more about the fact that insecurity is a very unattractive trait in anyone.

Hasn't it's been effectively suggested in this thread that men could find insecurity attractive in women?

blackbetty

11-19-2008, 08:44 PM

Fair enough, as long as you bear in mind that generalities only apply in general situations. Any given situation may not fit with a generality. But it sounds like that's what you're saying here.

What if you were attracted to someone, then you found out that he ate puppies or something, so you lost interest? Would that make you insecure about animal cruelty, or would you just lose attraction based on some personal trait of his?

I don't mean to compare ambition and self-sufficiency with something as bad as eating puppies since they're different (the former being only a preference and the latter being more of a moral issue), but I thought that would make my point clearer.

It doesn't have to be height. Take anything that you might have a preference against-- height, weight, hair color, political or religious beliefs, desire for having children, whatever. If there is an option among one of those things that that you don't like or find unattractive, is it because your insecure, or do you not like it because of some other reason altogether? For example, do you not like democrats or Christians because you're insecure about your own beliefs, or do their values not line up well with yours? And if that's the case, it's just a compatibility issue in which no one is "wrong," rather than one party being defective.

Probably. Some people are impulsive and don't think things through, other people over-analyze themselves into paralysis. Five bucks says you can guess which kind of person I am. ;)

gah...here goes
exactly-i emphasized generally, so it's all circumstantial.
if someone ate puppies i would be repulsed, so the lack of
interest in that person would be based on
"preference" of not being subjected to something that i'm "insecure"
with. although i don't know if i would use insecurity as a term to
describe something that causes extreme discomfort...but please let's not
debate semantics here :) i come in peace
i feel that typical things that cause insecurity are
rooted primarily in characteristics that you may have and not want,
or want and do not have. the status quo still has a basis of men playing the
provider/dominant role and surely men could be perceived by other men as "weak" if he were not as successful as his partner. this could in turn cause a situation that wouldn't be desirable and he could be insecure about his status as the lesser of the couple...i am not saying that in this particular case that he has lost an attraction to her due to this, but that as a woman it is easy to assume that at first based on experiences with the "typical" male. just in general, it's the first impression i get from a situation like this-not my "diagnosis". i haven't actually even given my opinion as to why i think he feels that way because i don't know ALL the details, but i don't think there's necessarily a defect on either side. maybe he discovered something that subconsciously didn't suit his preferences, like a physical or personality flaw? i really cannot say-if HE doesn't know why then i sure as hell don't. so yeah-i think you do over analyze, now leave me alone ;) but may i have 5 dollars please?

oh and to PRbori and Lucid: :thumbsup:

rara avis

11-19-2008, 09:00 PM

I will be the first to tell you that I am completely unimpressive on paper, where lifestyle & achievement are concerned.

I'm independent, intelligent and self-sufficient. Reasonably physically attractive, depending on your taste. However, I quit school when I was 15, and have meandered on the perimeter of things for a long time. No degrees, no career, not much cash. I doubt that my hypothetical spouse would have to worry about whether he'd be comfortable being Mr. Rara Avis in the eyes of the world, know what I mean?

My intimidation factor just comes from my natural Seven of Nine aura. I am not mean, I am polite, I have kind tendencies. But I am a terrible actor...

For better or for worse, I don't need to flash a resume to be intimidating, because the cold truth will out: I'd probably rather be absolutely on my own than with whomever I'm currently facing. It takes an unnatural level of advance commitment to face down that kind of adversity.

To the OP- it sounds like she's just not pushing your buttons. No harm, no foul.
To my repeated personal disappointment, I find that the unfortunate lack of button-pushing is not something that can be corrected through hyper-analysis.

Vagrant

11-19-2008, 10:07 PM

I think the intimidation/unsettling feeling men have for NT/INTJ women is mainly tied to the NT women's ability to see through you more than anything. This may not be concrete, but an intuitive reaction to something that seems like a threat to your private self, especially INTJ men. You cannot BS your way out of situations, but required to use all your mental capabilities to match and sustain that of the NT women's similar abilities.

You cannot hide behind your walls and come out whenever you want because the NT woman will be strong enough to get past your most private thoughts. That loss of, or threat against your mental control is worse than the loss of emotion the SF women presented.

So, all her academic or other achievements/capabilities may just be excuses for you to rationalize your way out of a perceived danger zone. Without that strong physical attraction or that powerful connection at all levels, you'll be able to build up your walls again, and edge yourself away from the potential pitfall....err...relationship ;D

Edit: Upon reviewing this: maybe I am projecting. This could work both ways...The INTJ men/women's struggle for control?

My last girlfriend was INTJ. I had no problem with this. ;)

it seems that men are just generally insecure about being with a woman that is more successful than they are (if even on the surface)...there are still conventions of gender roles in modern society.I'm not even sure if it's gender conventions. I've always cared less about gender conventions. I think it's just a matter of feeling intimidated by somebody doing everything better than you in the only ways you can make an objective comparison. I don't care whether it's a man or woman -- it's just intimidating. It's just in this case, I find her attractive too.

I know that the reality is there no real comparison -- I'm better in some things, she's obviously better in the things I pointed out. However, my subconscious was the one vocalizing this thought, and as such, was rather quiet.

My suggestion to you would be to figure out a way you can make yourself more independent, and try to close up to her level. You can approach her anytime, but for her to fully see you more than just a friend would probably take a while...The trouble with that is that would entail a complete rearrangement of my priorities and schedule -- something I'm not going to do for somebody I only have a moderate attraction to. I'm more busy than I make it sound (in fact, I'm exhausted, just got back from 2 hours of some intense longboarding). It just feels that I'm not her equal, because I don't concentrate on the same things she does, and as a result, am not as good at them.

The fact that I can take care of myself turns men off?? The fact that I am intelligent and ambitious is a bad thing romantically? WTF???I know this is gonna sound weird, but with this particular girl who obviously is taking care of herself, ambitious, etc...

I get two voices in my head arguing. One's arguing my natural INTJ side -- I should find this damn attractive by all accounts. I'm always looking for somebody who can take care of themselves. However, the other voice is arguing "Look, you'd be a hindrance, you'd be a fifth wheel." And I honestly can't give either voice preference, because I feel both have their merits. So I just don't act.

And no, before you ask, I am not schizophrenic. I have these internal dialogues all the time.

Don't get me wrong -- If I was merely talking about this, and not living it, the first voice would always win out. But I'm living it, and the second voice starts piping up quite heavily. It's not because I'm trying to be sexist or am subconsciously following gender roles.

Antares

11-20-2008, 12:59 AM

Well, there's a pop expression: "Out of my league." It's extremely apparent in high school; I find myself constantly comparing myself against a male INTJ to figure out if he's 'in my league'. Not that I'm in anyway attracted to him; I just thrive in the competition. Might this be the case? INTJ competitiveness? I certainly will feel slightly queasy if my future boyfriend beats me in every aspect and I don't really give a damn about how well someone 'compares' to me to date them, as long as they're responsible, intellectually stimulating and has a unique personality. What I plan to do for my future may not help my attractiveness one bit, but it's not going to stop me from striving to take thirteen APs in my high school career, or earn a Bachelor's in music before my Freshmen year starts in 2011.

Fanowene

11-20-2008, 01:00 AM

From my perspective, We (INTJ women) don't look for someone to support us for we are self-sufficient, but we do look for someone who is willing to build an empire together, to work as a couple to achieve the goals we have and build up a well grounded family environment... a well grounded foundation that will lead to a happier life and possibly early retirement...
I agree.

I'm an INT female and this is often the case for me. Because I am self-sufficient and independent, I don't need a care-giver or a provider. What I look for in a mate, specifically, are intelligence, physical attractiveness and someone who will make me laugh!
Oh yes, I'm definitely attracted to somebody who makes me laugh... When I laugh I get more relaxed, so that makes me easier to approach, too...

Lucid

11-20-2008, 05:29 AM

I know this is gonna sound weird, but with this particular girl who obviously is taking care of herself, ambitious, etc...

I get two voices in my head arguing. One's arguing my natural INTJ side -- I should find this damn attractive by all accounts. I'm always looking for somebody who can take care of themselves. However, the other voice is arguing "Look, you'd be a hindrance, you'd be a fifth wheel." And I honestly can't give either voice preference, because I feel both have their merits. So I just don't act.

And no, before you ask, I am not schizophrenic. I have these internal dialogues all the time.

Don't get me wrong -- If I was merely talking about this, and not living it, the first voice would always win out. But I'm living it, and the second voice starts piping up quite heavily. It's not because I'm trying to be sexist or am subconsciously following gender roles.

I don't think you're sexist in the least. These kinds of things are often ingrained in us from a very early age (birth) and none of us is completely free of them. Actually I admire the fact that you've thought it through more than most people seem to.

I wouldn't worry about being a 5th wheel. Let her make that decision for herself. It may be that she's too busy for a relationship right now, but that may not always be the case.

No matter how self-sufficient, independent and accomplished someone is they're still human and still want to have others around and (most of us) want a romantic relationship of some kind. How can you be a hindrance if you're filling that role?

rara avis

11-20-2008, 05:32 AM

I know this is gonna sound weird, but with this particular girl who obviously is taking care of herself, ambitious, etc...

I get two voices in my head arguing. One's arguing my natural INTJ side -- I should find this damn attractive by all accounts. I'm always looking for somebody who can take care of themselves. However, the other voice is arguing "Look, you'd be a hindrance, you'd be a fifth wheel." And I honestly can't give either voice preference, because I feel both have their merits. So I just don't act.

And no, before you ask, I am not schizophrenic. I have these internal dialogues all the time.

Don't get me wrong -- If I was merely talking about this, and not living it, the first voice would always win out. But I'm living it, and the second voice starts piping up quite heavily. It's not because I'm trying to be sexist or am subconsciously following gender roles.

Maybe I have experienced something similar, in a way. I had a very hard time in the past in a relationship where I didn't feel like I could be... useful. Appreciated & respected for my own knowledge, skill, value. I had to struggle all the time to have my contributions recognized as valid.

That imbalance came mainly from the fact that he was 12 yrs older than I. When I was 23, it was a big difference.

zibber

11-20-2008, 06:51 AM

My god, man.. Do you know her name? Have you talked to her? It's incredible that these vital things are completely unmentioned in any of your posts. Not to offend, by any means, but this sounds like some kind of corporate decision process.

The trouble with that is that would entail a complete rearrangement of my priorities and schedule -- something I'm not going to do for somebody I only have a moderate attraction to.

So you're not really attracted to her in the first place? Romantically, I mean.

Look. It sounds to me like you've been eyeing some girl a few seats away, developed a superficial crush and are contemplating "asking her out" (apparently meaning, in this context, to start dating). Your criteria for deciding whether to do this or not are dominated by practical concerns and some kind of warped merit comparison. Already, this has nothing at all to do with a budding relationship. Love finds a way; if you sincerely dug this girl, a freaking longboarding session would be the LAST thing on your mind. Such concerns may start to affect a failing relationship, in the long run, but why give one iota of thought to that in this context?

Marcus

11-20-2008, 07:10 AM

Some of the posts here seem to confirm the dual theory (NiTe+SeFi make a dual). You want to play a role in which you feel comfortable and which is useful for the couple. If there are two NiTe-s, then you have conflict over who's playing the Ni and Te roles, and missing 'actors/tresses' for the Se and Fi roles. Dual theory says that somebody would have to start playing the missing roles to help the couple work, but at the cost of moving out of his/her comfort zone.

So if you feel 'not needed', then it's because you are, in fact, not needed in your natural role. It's already filled. And if you need somebody to make you laugh, then you might be just looking for Se and Fi.

schwartzie

11-20-2008, 07:47 AM

Sir, you are overanalyzing the situation (gee, who would of thought? heh) ... I run into INTx type women every day. Yes, they are intimidating, but I'd be willing to wager that you are too. ...
Stop thinking so much, be natural, talk to her, and if/when the time is right, make your intentions known.
.... When ... she brings up a genuinely intriguing point, ... SMILE AT HER (very important in my experiences!), and make it known that you think she is brilliant, etc.

*huggles RCM* *oooh... a smart one* yum!!

It might help the OP to remember that if this woman intimidates him -- with him bein' an INTJ and all -- imagine how she intimidates every other guy .... He may be the very best thing she has ever met. (How many "I" males make the first move? Almost none ... it is unnerving, and takes some practice.... I'm probably pretty typical intj female--one in about a couple or tens of thousands of random males could approach me.)

My only guaranteed filter is the eyes. Smart, interesting people ALWAYS have eyes that sparkle, even when they are unhappy -- because somebody is living in there.... so that's what I look for.

Social status seems so S a thing to base a relationship on. Bleah. To me, far more important is compatibility. Can we talk, happily, for more than 2 minutes? Can we work together on something and enjoy the process? External (social, economic, educational, etc.) circumstances are far more flexible--intj's have a wide range of compatibility.

I agree with RCM- you need to chill a bit. And Marcus-- spot on. If the OP wants some intj fulfillment, he probably has to take a tiny step out of his comfort zone. The first step, in my experience, doesn't have to be much.... the other person's Ni will "get it" and take the next step....

Uytuun

11-20-2008, 08:48 AM

INTJ women and the male ego don't go hand in hand. In many ways, we are risky endeavours.

And that's no one's fault really.

Vagrant

11-20-2008, 09:34 AM

Look. It sounds to me like you've been eyeing some girl a few seats away, developed a superficial crush and are contemplating "asking her out" (apparently meaning, in this context, to start dating). Your criteria for deciding whether to do this or not are dominated by practical concerns and some kind of warped merit comparison. Already, this has nothing at all to do with a budding relationship. Love finds a way; if you sincerely dug this girl, a freaking longboarding session would be the LAST thing on your mind. Such concerns may start to affect a failing relationship, in the long run, but why give one iota of thought to that in this context?:p

I sit right next to her and occasionally talk to her if I see her doing something interesting. She mentioned her name a while ago, but I completely forgot it, as I have a bad habit of doing.

The thing is though... I didn't post this for relationship advice. My friends (and the little voices) give me enough advice as is. I posted this primarily to illustrate why female INTJ's may be having so many problems with men asking them out. However, I do have to thank everybody for their advice: It is more reassuring. The thought of being a fifth wheel is NOT appealing, but from what it sounds like, I shouldn't have to worry about that.

schwartzie

11-20-2008, 06:47 PM

:p
The thing is though... I didn't post this for relationship advice. ... I posted this primarily to illustrate why female INTJ's may be having so many problems with men asking them out....

aaah. well, that's different. in that case, I guess I disagree with parts of your assessment.

... when I start answering the "Why am I losing attraction?" question, it comes up with multiple answers: [first]In all regards, I appear inferior ... I know that that's not necessarily true. But the appearance can be more intimidating than the truth.

this may be more of a problem for relatively young intjs. With experience, as you get comfortable with your intj-ness, appearances become far less important. And, more fundamentally, it doesn't seem to be specific to INTJs, nor to women more than men; just the opposite. If an intj is interested in being around NT types, unconventional or daunting superficial stuff is a perfect way to filter off the icky "s" types; this is true, and works, for both INTJ men and women.

Time. When I consider a potential relationship, judging by her statements, she has no time available at all in her life. ...
people who have no time for relationships probably aren't looking for relationships and have no "problems" with being asked out. A dear friend straddles this. He would really like an intimate relationship, but has no time or other resources for it, and he knows it, and so, is taking the opposite approach; he is just flat out running to get the pressure-cooker "student" part of his life behind him. Maybe the girl you are intrigued by is doing something similar. (I did in college/grad school; I just didn't need or want a relationship of any substance at that time.) I guess I don't think lack of time has anything to do w gender, and it may not be a problem at all for your target.

As an NT (I suspect), she also doesn't show if she's attracted very well. I don't think this is gender-specific; but... if anything, it's a greater problem for men than women (the ask-er risks more than the ask-ee and is more inclined to conceal emotions to avoid rejection.)

Finally, I think your assumptions about intj women is off. I don't think the problem for most intj women is "getting asked out." The problem is getting asked out by the relatively rare and desireable intj men rather than icky non-NTs. And that seems, at least to me, to come down to the feeling intimidated thing, and the need to get over the "s" values....

ecco28

11-21-2008, 01:50 PM

seoa

11-21-2008, 04:21 PM

Yeah. And it can be really frustrating for (especially INTJ) females...
The fact that I can take care of myself turns men off?? The fact that I am intelligent and ambitious is a bad thing romantically? WTF???
try being an ENFP female who'd love to be the Disney Princess, but is cursed(!) with intelligence, good education & a well-paying job that allowed me to get a mortgage years before most of my peers... never been able to find a prince to sweep me off my feet... worst of all worlds, I think ;)

The thing is though... I didn't post this for relationship advice. My friends (and the little voices) give me enough advice as is.

I posted this primarily to illustrate why female INTJ's may be having so many problems with men asking them out.

in my experience, the majority of males don't want a female who is equivalent (let alone better) in intelligence /expertise... most guys want to be that little bit better themselves, and to be fair, most girls want their guy to be better too... and yes, this sounds awfully politically incorrect, but it really doesn't seem to change much as the generations go by...

obviously there are some exceptions - and from what i've seen posted around this forum, i think an INTJ female is more likely to be one of those exceptions than some other types...

but as you say, it's not about whether the INTJ female is less concerned about these status items than other females (as a general rule), but whether the guys she meets are willing to break stereotype for her...

which from your post, it sounds like they're generally not

which is sad...

:cry:

ElstonGunn

11-21-2008, 04:44 PM

The fact that I can take care of myself turns men off?? The fact that I am intelligent and ambitious is a bad thing romantically? WTF???

I'm not sure if it's that those are bad, as much as it is that you may be lacking other things that men tend to value in a woman more.

That's how I am, but I don't know if any other men would agree with me. I have nothing against intelligent women, but there are several other qualities that I find much more attractive. A warm personality and whatever my conception of femininity is (which is of course meaningless and completely inaccurate to anyone else) rank very high. And on a certain level, I do enjoy taking care of a woman I like (whatever "taking care of" may mean). Honestly, do those traits make you think, "Hey, that sounds like an INTJ"?

It might be like a pair of shoes that look really, really nice but don't fit on your feet very well at all. There's nothing wrong with nice shoes. If anything, that's a good quality of theirs, but I'd rather have comfortable, plain shoes than a really nice pair that blister my feet.

SimplyOtter

11-21-2008, 04:47 PM

Vagrant, I'm not an INTJ girl, but I think I know what you mean.
One of the thing that attracted me in the INTJ I was seeing a while ago, was the fact that I could perceive his weaknesses and insecurities and fears behind a wall of confidence and strength. I mean, he was strong, and also confident, but he was also fragile and lost as I feel so often in this world. In one word, I felt close to him as he was similar to me. I'm not sure about the thing of men being intimidated by stronger women etc., I think we all need somebody who sees the world from the same position to be able to let go and fall in love...

ElstonGunn

11-21-2008, 04:52 PM

I think we all need somebody who sees the world from the same position to be able to let go and fall in love...

I think letting go is harder than running two consecutive marathons while dragging a cement mixer. I'm just saying that for the record. Maybe that provides a tangentially related example of what you're saying about the INTJ you liked.

SimplyOtter

11-21-2008, 05:00 PM

I think letting go is harder than running two consecutive marathons while dragging a cement mixer. I'm just saying that for the record. Maybe that provides a tangentially related example of what you're saying about the INTJ you liked.

LOL! a very poignant metaphor, I liked it :)

Come on, you know what I mean, if the person we like seems to be made of rock we just perceive him/her as alien... I know it's difficult for you to let go (because for INFPs it's simple, haha!) , but it's even more difficult with somebody who seems ... too perfect?

silversun

11-21-2008, 05:23 PM

That's how I am, but I don't know if any other men would agree with me. I have nothing against intelligent women, but there are several other qualities that I find much more attractive. A warm personality and whatever my conception of femininity is (which is of course meaningless and completely inaccurate to anyone else) rank very high. And on a certain level, I do enjoy taking care of a woman I like (whatever "taking care of" may mean). Honestly, do those traits make you think, "Hey, that sounds like an INTJ"?

Look past the exterior.
What you described is the sort of ignorant thinking that has deemed INTJ women unfit "females" in the first place. Do we really want to perpetuate these stereotypes?
I know myself to be quite a warm and caring person when people really need my help, or when one of my friends is sad. I will try to solve the problem, and it brings out the emotional side of me that people usually don't see. I was going to Colorado with a friend and it was about 2AM body time when we got to our apartment. We were exhausted and I had been complaining/being grouchy a lot in the car due to headache/cold/etc. However when we got to the house my friend was feeling really horrible and even though I really wanted to go to bed I ran around getting her water and stuff. I remember her being so surprised at seeing this side of me that she even made a remark to me about it the next day.
Our version of femininity isn't deemed right by society, but that is just because we don't flaunt it. Just think of it as hidden deep inside, waiting for the right person to come around. We want to share our femininity (because this is our vulnerable side) with a special person.
All the advice I can give you guys is that we are deep people. The ESFP has no problem expressing her feelings, but in a real relationship you might not ever see anything new to her. An INTJ woman has so much to her that you can learn and experience, you just have to put effort in and not be turned away by her seemingly lack of interest during the process. I've never gotten close to anybody enough that I've been comfortable to share all of my interests and knowledge (But Im only 18). The more you go after her, the more you will learn about her too, and she will be happy to have someone to talk and relate to, and of course, open up to emotionally!
As an INTJ female I really don't expect to meet another guy who's as ambitious as me, in fact I don't want one. I want someone to tell me to chill out when I'm making a big deal out of things =P

ElstonGunn

11-21-2008, 07:34 PM

Come on, you know what I mean, if the person we like seems to be made of rock we just perceive him/her as alien... I know it's difficult for you to let go (because for INFPs it's simple, haha!) , but it's even more difficult with somebody who seems ... too perfect?

Yeah, I know what you mean, and that's a big part of why I like (I)NFs. I was just sayin'... One of the upsides (among several downsides) of putting up a lot of walls is that if someone can get through them, you know she's special.

Look past the exterior.
What you described is the sort of ignorant thinking that has deemed INTJ women unfit "females" in the first place. Do we really want to perpetuate these stereotypes?

I don't think they're unfit. They tend to be smart, and judging by the picture threads, physically attractive. I'm just saying that my personal preference values other traits moreso than being smart and hot. Smart and hot are both great qualities. I'm not saying that either of those is a turn-off. I like both of them. But there are other things that I like more in a woman, inasmuch as it applies to a romantic relationship. It's like a five-dollar bill versus a ten-dollar bill. Both are good.

I know myself to be quite a warm and caring person when people really need my help, or when one of my friends is sad. I will try to solve the problem, and it brings out the emotional side of me that people usually don't see.

I bet. There's no irrefutable law that says that INTJs can't be caring. They may tend to be cautious or reserved about it, but that doesn't mean that they can't do it. We tend to be selective, eh?

Our version of femininity isn't deemed right by society, but that is just because we don't flaunt it. Just think of it as hidden deep inside, waiting for the right person to come around. We want to share our femininity (because this is our vulnerable side) with a special person.

I can relate to that. My soft side is very hidden. I prefer to think that that makes it more special when someone does get access to it, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. In any event, I think we may agree in an overall sense about this general thing inasmuch as it applies to us as individuals, whether or not I like this quality in a potential girlfriend.

All the advice I can give you guys is that we are deep people. The ESFP has no problem expressing her feelings, but in a real relationship you might not ever see anything new to her.

And classic rock stations never play anything new, but I still like them. On the other hand, I'm just some bozo with an internet connection, so what do I know? Don't take me too seriously.

An INTJ woman has so much to her that you can learn and experience, you just have to put effort in and not be turned away by her seemingly lack of interest during the process. I've never gotten close to anybody enough that I've been comfortable to share all of my interests and knowledge (But Im only 18). The more you go after her, the more you will learn about her too, and she will be happy to have someone to talk and relate to, and of course, open up to emotionally!

Fair enough. You wouldn't assume that you own personal preference should-- let alone does-- apply to everyone, though, right?

As an INTJ female I really don't expect to meet another guy who's as ambitious as me, in fact I don't want one. I want someone to tell me to chill out when I'm making a big deal out of things =P

Alright, so you're awesome. Simmer down a little, eh?

Lucid

11-22-2008, 01:32 AM

I'm not sure if it's that those are bad, as much as it is that you may be lacking other things that men tend to value in a woman more.

I'm confused. When you say "you" do you mean me personally or INTJ women in general? When you say that I or we are lacking other things that men tend to value ina woman more, are you speaking for all (or most) men or for yourself? What things (other than a warm personality, as you mentioned) do you think men value more? Don't you think the possession of these qualities might vary between INTJ females? And, I'll have you know, I have a very warm personality although I may not be incredibly outgoing. :p
Please elaborate.

I think this thread is merely trying to address one of many possible problems that INTJ women have with dating. Of course, whether being seen as intimidating or undesirable because of one's independance, as well as any other trait or aspect of one's personality, will vary between INTJ females and will also vary between the males we encounter. I don't think anyone here is trying to say that this is the singular problem encountered by INTJ females, or that the men who find us unattractive for these traits which we value in ourselves are wrong. All of us are entitled to our preferences in a mate. No one is trying to say that you are wrong or bad for your own personal preferences, Elston. But it doesn't change the fact that it's still frustrating and often confusing for INTJ females for whom this may be a problem, even if it's just one problem of many.

seoa

11-22-2008, 02:01 AM

I'm not sure if it's that those are bad, as much as it is that you may be lacking other things that men tend to value in a woman more.

That's how I am, but I don't know if any other men would agree with me. I have nothing against intelligent women, but there are several other qualities that I find much more attractive.

...And on a certain level, I do enjoy taking care of a woman I like (whatever "taking care of" may mean).
that's kind of the issue that lucid & i are referring to...

being intelligent & competent means that we don't naturally give off the impression of needing to be taken care of... i have had a mortgage of my own for years, i have pretty good earning power, i am sufficiently emotionally stable to pass as non-needy...

what am i meant to do...? i *am* taking care of myself, because i don't have a choice - partly through circumstances (what - i should stay at home with my parents, doing volunteer work, until my man comes along to rescue me?), and partly through innate competencies (i *can* take care of myself, therefore it wouldn't occur to me not to)...

but it doesn't mean i don't want a man to come & take care of me... i would like nothing more than to have a guy come along and be the masculinity to my femininity (which i have in spades, in addition to all my competency qualities)... and to earn a decent salary so that i can stay at home with the many kids i would love to have & stay home with full-time...

but they just don't look past the first impression, and instead turn to the low-hanging fruit, of women whose needs are more immediately on display...

we're just saying... men mostly see "high powered career woman", and that cancels out all romantic attraction... they just don't move to that second step of seeing what else there is...

and you're kinda confirming that - assuming that intelligence /competencies is reasonably likely to exclude the femininity that you are (quite naturally) looking for, as a male...

it makes me sad...

ElstonGunn

11-22-2008, 08:58 AM

I'm confused. When you say "you" do you mean me personally or INTJ women in general? When you say that I or we are lacking other things that men tend to value ina woman more, are you speaking for all (or most) men or for yourself? What things (other than a warm personality, as you mentioned) do you think men value more? Don't you think the possession of these qualities might vary between INTJ females? And, I'll have you know, I have a very warm personality although I may not be incredibly outgoing. :p
Please elaborate.

I meant "you" in whatever sense you (Lucid, or whoever else is reading this) want to take it. It was just an idea. Rather than "Men don't like me because I'm intimidating," I was suggesting that maybe men are looking for something else that might not be noticeable in you, even if you do in fact have it.

I only ever can speak for myself. I might suggest that, possibly maybe somehow, some other men might be somewhat similar to me, but I refuse to assert with any certainty that they are. It's not my call, and I think anyone who tries to do that undermines his own credibility.

And, no nothing varies, because all INTJ women are exactly the same, down to the last psychological iota, regardless of who they are, what they value, where they're from, etc, etc. ;)

I think this thread is merely trying to address one of many possible problems that INTJ women have with dating. Of course, whether being seen as intimidating or undesirable because of one's independance, as well as any other trait or aspect of one's personality, will vary between INTJ females and will also vary between the males we encounter. I don't think anyone here is trying to say that this is the singular problem encountered by INTJ females, or that the men who find us unattractive for these traits which we value in ourselves are wrong. All of us are entitled to our preferences in a mate. No one is trying to say that you are wrong or bad for your own personal preferences, Elston. But it doesn't change the fact that it's still frustrating and often confusing for INTJ females for whom this may be a problem, even if it's just one problem of many.

I don't understand. I was just suggesting a possible cause of that one particular problem. The fact that it's frustrating doesn't make it go away, either. And I'm not saying that it shouldn't be a problem, or that INTJ women should change. I do suggest being aware of their environment, part of which includes bozos like me who don't value their independence as much as they themselves do. The basic solution there, as far as I can tell, is to not bother with people like me, and instead focus on finding, attracting, and establishing a relationship with the specific type of person who suits you.

and you're kinda confirming that - assuming that intelligence /competencies is reasonably likely to exclude the femininity that you are (quite naturally) looking for, as a male...

it makes me sad...

Alright, so one clown with an internet connection confirms your fear (only to a certain extent, I should add). Big whoop. As I said above, if it bothers you, then ignore chuckleheads like me. I can't imagine that every man in the world has the same preferences that I have. Even here, I've noticed a lot of preferential differences between myself and other males. I'm sure that there are plenty who get all riled up over ambitious or accomplished women. I doubt that you're so unusual that no one would like what you've got to offer.

If I didn't like women with blonde hair, I should look for a brunette, rather than focusing on how many blonde women there are. Of course, that would be easier to do in China than it would be in Sweden, but what can you do?

Vagrant

11-22-2008, 04:16 PM

Alright, so one clown with an internet connection confirms your fearHey now, who you calling clown?

I'll take you DOWNTOWN.

And we'll have a nice meal and conversation.

ElstonGunn

11-22-2008, 05:25 PM

Hey now, who you calling clown?

I'll take you DOWNTOWN.

And we'll have a nice meal and conversation.

I was referring to myself, there. But now that you mention it, I guess I also indirectly and unintentionally included you, too. Either way, that dinner sounds good.

blueback

11-22-2008, 08:02 PM

try being an ENFP female who'd love to be the Disney Princess, but is cursed(!) with intelligence, good education & a well-paying job that allowed me to get a mortgage years before most of my peers... never been able to find a prince to sweep me off my feet... worst of all worlds, I think ;)

So. . .come here often? *wink*

in my experience, the majority of males don't want a female who is equivalent (let alone better) in intelligence /expertise... most guys want to be that little bit better themselves, and to be fair, most girls want their guy to be better too

I think it's an evolution thing.
Like it or not your female ancestors spent a lot of their time pregnant and/or taking care of children so your male ancestors spent an equivalent amount of time hunting, farming, and politic-ing. Our genes are still optimized for a subset of tasks even though our environment has changed.

it's not about whether the INTJ female is less concerned about these status items than other females (as a general rule), but whether the guys she meets are willing to break stereotype for her...

Are you absolutely sure that it's their fault, and not yours? Maybe you're unconsciously rejecting them. After all, the most consistent factor in all failed relationships is the person having them.

An INTJ woman has so much to her that you can learn and experience, you just have to put effort in and not be turned away by her seemingly lack of interest during the process...The more you go after her, the more you will learn about her too, and she will be happy to have someone to talk and relate to, and of course, open up to emotionally!

but they just don't look past the first impression, and instead turn to the low-hanging fruit, of women whose needs are more immediately on display...

Why would someone spend all that time pursuing you when they don't know what their reward will be? People only spend time in relationships which make them feel better than the thought of not being in the relationship. If you are going to be one way during the courtship, and another after the courtship, you are going to have to let them know what that "other" way is. Otherwise they will have every reason to assume the way you are during the courtship is just the way you are. If they don't like it then they'll leave.

As an INTJ female I really don't expect to meet another guy who's as ambitious as me, in fact I don't want one. I want someone to tell me to chill out when I'm making a big deal out of things =P

I've thought that way too, but from the other side of the gender.
I'm ambitious enough for a couple people, so I'm not sure if a relationship with an equally ambitious woman would work. The problem is that I don't really value people who aren't ambitious. At least, I have yet to meet a person who wasn't ambitious and managed to explain it in a way that made up for the lack.

being intelligent & competent means that we don't naturally give off the impression of needing to be taken care of...i *am* taking care of myself,

I don't think the offputting thing is that you are taking care of yourself, but that you are contented taking care of yourself.

but it doesn't mean i don't want a man to come & take care of me... i would like nothing more than to have a guy come along and be the masculinity to my femininity (which i have in spades, in addition to all my competency qualities)... and to earn a decent salary so that i can stay at home with the many kids i would love to have & stay home with full-time...

But you would be content if that never happened. At least, you would be content enough not to compromise and get less than that just to get some of that. Or would you? For example, I'm really not sure whether or not I will reach a point in my life where I would rather commit to a less-than-totally-satisfactory woman just so that I can have kids, or whether I would commit to a totally satisfactory woman who refused to have kids. At the moment I'm holding out for the whole bag of marbles.

we're just saying... men mostly see "high powered career woman", and that cancels out all romantic attraction... they just don't move to that second step of seeing what else there is...

True.
I do agree that the average guy is intimidated by the above average woman. But, is that really suprising?
Think about it in a statistical sense. The vast majority (68%) of guys you meet are going to be within one standard deviation of average. We'll just call them average. You being several standard deviations away from average doesn't change the fact that most of the guys you meet are average. It would make sense that an average person would be intimidated by an exceptional person or at least wouldn't think they had much in common with them. It seems to me that the only people who would be comfortable with you are equally exceptional men, but there aren't very many of them. So you are complaining about not being able to fit a square peg into the many round holes passing by you, when you should be waiting for a square hole to come along (or go find it).

and you're kinda confirming that - assuming that intelligence /competencies is reasonably likely to exclude the femininity that you are (quite naturally) looking for, as a male...

Feminine doesn't mean dumb or incapable. That is just weakness.
Men don't have a monopoly on looking for weakness in a mate. Women do it to, just as often, they are simply looking for different weaknesses. How many times have you seen a woman attracted when a man is "conflicted" or "broken?" That is exactly the same mechanism as a man being attracted to a woman who is "needy" or "stupid."

There is a flaw in the human condition which dictates that we don't like being around people we don't understand. Since everyone sees their own flaws and weaknesses with crystal clarity we also want to see a flaw or weakness in other people. If someone seems perfect we just don't understand them. That makes them appear alien and intimidating.