Greatness

[Meyer]

I have to ask. Do most INTJS feel some inate connection to "greatness?" Whatever your definition of that word is, do you feel part of it. I am putting this in the psychology section because I realize it may be a bit delusional.
Discuss please:

[Henry]

I have to ask. Do most INTJS feel some inate connection to "greatness?" Whatever your definition of that word is, do you feel part of it. I am putting this in the psychology section because I realize it may be a bit delusional.
Discuss please:

I have a very deep seated fear of doing nothing worthwhile with my life. My guru says "We have not even to risk the path alone. The heros of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known" and yet I haven't done anything of real merit to date, and don't even have the courage to quit my worthless fucking job.

I also have a weird, irrational sense of affinity with great people that I can't rationally explain.

[Meyer]

Is your idea of greatness constantly evolving or is it consistant?

[Warren_Wong]

I have a very deep seated fear of doing nothing worthwhile with my life. My guru says "We have not even to risk the path alone. The heros of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known" and yet I haven't done anything of real merit to date, and don't even have the courage to quit my worthless fucking job.

I also have a weird, irrational sense of affinity with great people that I can't rationally explain.

Hmmmm... I think I always feel like whatever the task is, I can accomplish it. My greater fear is actually accomplishing the tasks but doing the wrong thing... kind of like becoming another Hitler maybe.

[Henry]

Is your idea of greatness constantly evolving or is it consistant?

Its actually not that well defined; its very general and I admire a variety of "great" people. The concept is very abstract but it does not change a great deal over time.

Hmmmm... I think I always feel like whatever the task is, I can accomplish it. My greater fear is actually accomplishing the tasks but doing the wrong thing... kind of like becoming another Hitler maybe.

With respect, my concept of greatness has very little to do with "tasks". New ideas, creativity, results, macro level impact, exceptional leadership. These are closer to my ideal of greatness, which have nothing to do with tasks. If I knew what I wanted to do, it would be easy.

[Warren_Wong]

Its actually not that well defined; its very general and I admire a variety of "great" people. The concept is very abstract but it does not change a great deal over time.



With respect, my concept of greatness has very little to do with "tasks". New ideas, creativity, results, macro level impact, exceptional leadership. These are closer to my ideal of greatness, which have nothing to do with tasks. If I knew what I wanted to do, it would be easy.

I guess it's just question of semantics. I view "wanting to be great" as a task on my list...

Then I break it down into sub "tasks", like being a good father, being a good person, contributing value to society, etc.

When I say tasks, it's really more like "goals" hehe...

[logan235711]

I sort-of agree with the notion of 'greatness' as a task I can accomplish if I so choose. However, it's not something I'm interested in so more often I just do my own things not worrying about it. So I suppose this leads to the idea that greatness is always just around the corner should I choose to pick the apple.

[qwerty]

I don't know if this description is starting to bore people yet; but here it is again :)

Life is all about climbing the hill. We all begin at the very base looking up, being inspired, see the people who have climbed it before us and wishing we could be like them. Then we begin. Some of us link up and climb together for a while then part company, as the years wear on we bump into new climbers and join with them.
Every once and a while we pass through a village where we enjoy the comforts that have been offered to us.
As we progress there seem to be less and less people around, some have given up and returned to the base, other have tripped and fallen away, but the majority have one day decided to stop and shack up in a village that suits them.
Of course along the path there are hurdles: mountain lions, falling rocks knocked down from those above us. But it's the burning within us that pushes us forward.

Finally one day we reach the top and look out on the world and see the things that we have imagined. Though in the distance we see new peaks, higher still. Some of the people that make it to the top of the first mountain see them and smile then return back down the mountain to revisit a village they went through perhaps for a lost love or for the recognition.

To me the great people amongst us are the people that keep climbing. They reach one peak and head on to the next one. To do this you need to make many unfair decisions in the hope that when you reach the peak of one of those far off mountains that you will see everything and understand.

[chocky]

I don't know if this description is starting to bore people yet; but here it is again :)

Life is all about climbing the hill. We all begin at the very base looking up, being inspired, see the people who have climbed it before us and wishing we could be like them. Then we begin. Some of us link up and climb together for a while then part company, as the years wear on we bump into new climbers and join with them.
Every once and a while we pass through a village where we enjoy the comforts that have been offered to us.
As we progress there seem to be less and less people around, some have given up and returned to the base, other have tripped and fallen away, but the majority have one day decided to stop and shack up in a village that suits them.
Of course along the path there are hurdles: mountain lions, falling rocks knocked down from those above us. But it's the burning within us that pushes us forward.

Finally one day we reach the top and look out on the world and see the things that we have imagined. Though in the distance we see new peaks, higher still. Some of the people that make it to the top of the first mountain see them and smile then return back down the mountain to revisit a village they went through perhaps for a lost love or for the recognition.

To me the great people amongst us are the people that keep climbing. They reach one peak and head on to the next one. To do this you need to make many unfair decisions in the hope that when you reach the peak of one of those far off mountains that you will see everything and understand.

:) Greatness is all about the view.

[The Many]

I don't know if this description is starting to bore people yet; but here it is again :)

Life is all about climbing the hill. We all begin at the very base looking up, being inspired, see the people who have climbed it before us and wishing we could be like them. Then we begin. Some of us link up and climb together for a while then part company, as the years wear on we bump into new climbers and join with them.
Every once and a while we pass through a village where we enjoy the comforts that have been offered to us.
As we progress there seem to be less and less people around, some have given up and returned to the base, other have tripped and fallen away, but the majority have one day decided to stop and shack up in a village that suits them.
Of course along the path there are hurdles: mountain lions, falling rocks knocked down from those above us. But it's the burning within us that pushes us forward.

Finally one day we reach the top and look out on the world and see the things that we have imagined. Though in the distance we see new peaks, higher still. Some of the people that make it to the top of the first mountain see them and smile then return back down the mountain to revisit a village they went through perhaps for a lost love or for the recognition.

To me the great people amongst us are the people that keep climbing. They reach one peak and head on to the next one. To do this you need to make many unfair decisions in the hope that when you reach the peak of one of those far off mountains that you will see everything and understand.

That was a very cheesy analogy. I like it :D.

As to greatness, it's an interesting topic. As a child, I wanted to do something I would be remembered for and have my name in history books. As of now, I don't know anymore. I want to get as much out of life as possible, I want to fully understand it and live it according to my understanding, change what needs to be changed and contribute what needs to be contributed - to some extent, I suppose I will always be climbing, I see it in me already. I always push further towards new goals when one is completed, and I quite often have an easier time identifying myself with a Nietzsche or a Voltaire than with the ordinary people I meet.

[tubaglue]

First of all, I dug the analogy. It's something I can visualize and makes sense.

Secondly, ever since I can remember I've believed that when all was said and done I will have done something great. Over the years I've always had this feeling inside me. I'm not sure what the "thing" that I'm gonna do is, and it's not a concious action I'm taking to be great, I just feel a pull. At times I've questioned the validity of this feeling thinking I was crazy or something and I'm still not sure how I feel about it. My general credo is enjoy what you do, do it well, and let the rest of the stuff work itself out. So, I don't know if that is a path to greatness, but it works for now. As for defining greatness, I'm not sure, that's a tough one. Sometimes I think the people we consider great are normal people who when put in a certain situation or an opportunity presented itself they responded by doing what they had to do, or the right thing, or rose above the situation, and survived to tell the story.

[SolitaryWalker]

I have to ask. Do most INTJS feel some inate connection to "greatness?" Whatever your definition of that word is, do you feel part of it. I am putting this in the psychology section because I realize it may be a bit delusional.
Discuss please:

Yes, there should be a connection as INTJs tend to rely more on Extroverted Judgment rather than introverted. In synthesis with their powerful imagination (Ni), this could lead to an apotheosis of such an idea. This is where they have much in common with their ENTJ counterpart, though their fascination with greatness tends to be less significant because the Te factor is less distinct.

From my Introverted Judgment perspective, people like Napoleon and Alexander are not great because they took over half the world. Great are those like Milton and Spinoza who have gone at great lengths to emend their inner world.








''Somewhere in the 1600s a man who could not see, sat down to write what he thought would be the greatest poem in human history. He said it would include, in his words, ''things yet unattempted in prose or rhyme.'' It is the view of the modern world that he achieved just that. His poem, the paradise Lost, is considered the greatest epic in human history. Few poems take on such an enormous theme as Paradise Lost, a theme that is not less than the origin of evil in itself. The man who took on this ambitious challenge, and created a classic in the process, is a man who led a life of immense struggle, loss and sacrifice. In a sense, John Milton's life was a search for paradise-a life in which the poet became the poem.'':

Spinoza lived an uneventful life…Outwardly he was a poor lensgrinder supporting himself by his labors and indulging in much study. It has been the fashion to indulge in sentimentality over the man whom Unamo called the tragic, sorrowful Jew of Amsterdam, cut off from his own people and leading a lonely and frustrated life..,For under a rather drab exterior there burned the inward glory, the clam clear light of mind that has looked upon the very face of God, and in the knowledge and in the intellectual love of God found peace and blessedness.:

[Firelie]

Sometimes I get the feeling that I am destined to do something great. I don't know what it is, though, and I don't know how to find out. Sometimes I think it's probably just a byproduct of reading too many fantasy books...

[Danellian]

I don't know if this description is starting to bore people yet; but here it is again :)

Life is all about climbing the hill. We all begin at the very base looking up, being inspired, see the people who have climbed it before us and wishing we could be like them. Then we begin. Some of us link up and climb together for a while then part company, as the years wear on we bump into new climbers and join with them.
Every once and a while we pass through a village where we enjoy the comforts that have been offered to us.
As we progress there seem to be less and less people around, some have given up and returned to the base, other have tripped and fallen away, but the majority have one day decided to stop and shack up in a village that suits them.
Of course along the path there are hurdles: mountain lions, falling rocks knocked down from those above us. But it's the burning within us that pushes us forward.

Finally one day we reach the top and look out on the world and see the things that we have imagined. Though in the distance we see new peaks, higher still. Some of the people that make it to the top of the first mountain see them and smile then return back down the mountain to revisit a village they went through perhaps for a lost love or for the recognition.

To me the great people amongst us are the people that keep climbing. They reach one peak and head on to the next one. To do this you need to make many unfair decisions in the hope that when you reach the peak of one of those far off mountains that you will see everything and understand.


I really relate to that description. I'm always striving to move to something higher. For me, part of the problem lies in wanting to attain the loftiest peak today, instead of just enjoying each step of the journey and accepting each day as it comes.

[Meyer]

Sometimes I get the feeling that I am destined to do something great. I don't know what it is, though, and I don't know how to find out. Sometimes I think it's probably just a byproduct of reading too many fantasy books...

I think it is something related to introverted intuition. I remember when I was in the one on one session of couples therapy and the therapist asked me if I thought I was destined for greatness. Shortly after she had my wife and I take personality tests and when my results came back she seemed quite satisfied that she was able to predict that I was an INTJ before the test. This was before I really knew anything about mbti and I assumed everyone felt destined for greatness. According to the therapist this is not the case. A fun little sidebar: my ex-wife tested as an esfj. I am sure you can imagine the miscommunication that had gone on all those years.

[Nomad]

Someday, I will have property to do with as I will. I will plant trees, and make sure my segment of the river is as clean as possible. And when the birds sing and the cicadas play their fiddles and the frogs croak in the river to serenade me as I sit with a cold beer from the galvanized bucket at my feet, I will watch the moon and the stars. I will restore a little piece of the world to it's former subtle glory.

Then I will be great.

-Nomad

[Firelie]

This was before I really knew anything about mbti and I assumed everyone felt destined for greatness. According to the therapist this is not the case.

I've always assumed that everyone else felt that way too. That's very strange.

[Night]

I think the goal of any dutiful INTJ should be the occasional destruction of something he loves.

Complacency can lead to ruin.


I'd extend this maxim beyond the borders of the INTJ to all Types, to be honest.

[Max T]

I have a very strong desire to contribute to society and yet want to walk down streets unnoticed.

Either an invention of 50+yrs usage (i.e. substantial) or advance some niche thinking.

Until this is achieved, I won't be at peace with my mind but continuously striving.
I fear a mediocre life.

[Epicurus]

I think there is still part of me who wishes to have things like money, and property and so on. Tough I really don't find any peace in that from my realization of people being ignorant and stupid at times more or less. Here its not bad (I atleast don't feel like I will suffocate and puke at the same time), but I still see the imperfection in everyone, including myself. I probably got a little mental issue on this, like now, leading to cynicism and apathy... I really consider people like Diogenes of Sinope and Spinoza and others alike them to be the greatest people, and wielding ''greatness'', perhaps in a very subtle way. Being a hero for the masses, even if it means enlightening or helping some of them doesn't please me when I haven't become perfect myself. The gain of others should just be seen as a bi-product of your own mental and intellectuall perfection wich you need to remember how to keep and attain once you feel you are near it (wich I do at times). Just to avoid your own stupidity and others getting infected by it, because it spreads very fast compared to what I am searching to behold. That to me is greatness...and all you need is your thoughts to behold it.

[banzai]

Every great person that changed the world embodied their own definition of life.

I have just as much potential as any of those people.

The difference between meandering through the years and being one of those people is my choices.

With the choice to commit the effort, I must also realize the power in the fact that it is MY turn to define a life, and a great one at that.

Why follow norms when you can circumvent the process of social evolution altogether. Why waste creative thought on a canvas when you can recreate your entire foundation.

Do not see your life as a lifespan, see your lifespan as a window, your life as the object of your attention.

[Paul V]

I have a deep sense of greatness. I just know I'll do something worth remembering.

[quentin]

I've felt that I was destined for greatness at an early age. It came as a great shock as I entered the adult world and realized that achieving greatness was going to take a long, long time and a lot of hard work. My life has disappointed me greatly in so far being so ordinary and mundane. I feel that what I have achieved so far in life is the barest tip of the iceberg of my potential. I go through periods of feeling worthless because I feel like a failure, even though from other people's perspectives I am objectively not a genuine failure. However, I still keep the faith: I know that someday I will produce a great novel and make my mark upon the world. Forcing myself to work at my craft and get it all done is the hardest part.

[Hdier]

I consider myself 'great', in the sense that I am above the average person (in America at least; never been to another country long enough to judge the 'average person' to speak for any other country) and therefore am better than the average person.

I think, though, that all INTJ's are great in that sense.

[Drayakir]

I think I have a pathological desire for greatness. I find that what I fear most, is to die without leaving some sort of mark on the world, as in, I won't get remembered by history.

I understand that history tends not to remember too many people, but even specialist history (like Griffiths for genetics, or d'Heurelle for virusology) would be fine. So that's what I eventually hope to accomplish, at any cost. Hell, even becoming the person who wiped out some sort of animal would still be something.

[Smacknrat]

Wow. So it is a pathological need of the type.

A lot of what has been said here is what I share. It's hard to find someone that shares this desire as strongly. So far, it seems the only other person is my ENTJ boss.

For a different perspective, I tend to discuss this with an INTP friend of mine who simple accepts life and enjoys it (as an INTP would). He seems to recognize the fact that there are certain people, that no matter what is done, it won't be enough for them. Further discussion lead to wondering why is this needed. Is it hard wired? Comments prior to this discussion were:
"You seem to carry the weight of others around"
"It seems like you've been expected to achieve since you were really young"

I even made the statement that I need people (playing the devil's advocate). To which his response was: "Why do you think that?"

His iT (?) forcing my iN hand. It's useful sometimes. After a couple seconds, the paraphrased retort was:
"We are social animals, so there are inherent needs. Next, people are one of the greatest resources, it'd be a waste of resources not to use them."

This seemed to satisfy both him and myself.

Really, what I think drives INTJ from wanting to be great and ACTUALLY be great is stepping out of their heads. It's something that I have to do (seemingly) constantly. Taking a moment to realize you know enough to do something and then actually doing it. Chances are you'll surprise yourself and produce something meaningful for the time being.

I've done things that seemed mundane and obvious at the time and treated the product and myself as something that others could do. But reflecting on it 3 years later.... it even impresses me.

* Smacknrat added to this post, 13 minutes and 26 seconds later...

On a somewhat related note. While family members are understanding (as far as they could), it seems even ESFJs that I work with and encounter can't understand the concept. They're view seems to project both "slacker" and "work-aholic" at the same time. Then, any improvement/change you try to make life easier is met with strong resistance unless it is basically "Open this. Close this. You're done. They like it too."

[Hdier]

I think I have a pathological desire for greatness. I find that what I fear most, is to die without leaving some sort of mark on the world, as in, I won't get remembered by history.

I understand that history tends not to remember too many people, but even specialist history (like Griffiths for genetics, or d'Heurelle for virusology) would be fine. So that's what I eventually hope to accomplish, at any cost. Hell, even becoming the person who wiped out some sort of animal would still be something.



Agreed, I'd hate to to be forgotten simply because I died! I will become well-known in neurology, so the most important people will remember me.

[Blacklustre King]

I have long since come to terms with becoming a “monster” for a greater cause, whether misguided or not I can safely say my efforts WILL ultimately improve the world.

Unrealistic or not I see INTJs to be in the highest likeliness to have the world changing quality and I will be the last one to say I do not have some form of “god complex”.

I will be the greatest even if it means I have to become a god.

[slut poacher]

first you get good then you can become great. you have to focus first on becoming a well rounded person. all the effort and accomplishment in the world, will bring you little satisfaction if you are not ok with the person you are that time. the time and effort to achieve something great can take over your life, make sure it is a worthwhile life you are leading before you start. if nobody cares about you, they are not likely to care about accomplishments, unless your goal for greatness is something truly terrible you need a solid personal,emotional,ethical,base to work from. do you really want to become the next hitler?

[quentin]

Most great people in history were not well-round people.

Picasso, Napoleon, Isaac Newton, Hemingway, Mozart, etc..... not exactly what anyone would describe as well-rounded.

Most great artists suffer from emotional turmoil. That's what drives them to create. If you were comfortable with yourself and in tune with society and other people, then what possible motivation would you have to pursue greatness? People have that hungry drive to succeed because of some inner dissatisfaction. Stable, happy people aren't destined for greatness. They don't have the hunger.

[slut poacher]

Most great people in history were not well-round people.

Picasso, Napoleon, Isaac Newton, Hemingway, Mozart, etc..... not exactly what anyone would describe as well-rounded.

Most great artists suffer from emotional turmoil. That's what drives them to create. If you were comfortable with yourself and in tune with society and other people, then what possible motivation would you have to pursue greatness? People have that hungry drive to succeed because of some inner dissatisfaction. Stable, happy people aren't destined for greatness. They don't have the hunger.
i agree. wouldnt it be nice to have as an ideal, well rounded geniuses among us.

[Uytuun]

Sometimes I get the feeling that I am destined to do something great.

I can relate.

[Jed3]

I feel as though I'm different from everybody else. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, just different. Although i do believe I'm going to do something imporntant or 'great' in my lifetime.

I also get the feeling everybody else sees something in me that I don't see in myself.

Does anyone else get that?

[Aesthesis]

Greatness is something I've never really aspired to, besides it being a very subjective term. I always figured that if I'm just content with what I am and what I might become; greatness, fame, glory or whatever can take a back seat to my life.

[Siegfried]

I feel as though I'm different from everybody else. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, just different. Although i do believe I'm going to do something imporntant or 'great' in my lifetime.

I also get the feeling everybody else sees something in me that I don't see in myself.

Does anyone else get that?

Jed3, I feel the same, how strange...