Need some advice please (relationship-related)

[Natsilani]

So.. I know I'm a relatively new member/lurker here, and should probably not bug you guys with such things, but I desperately need some feedback.

I'm an INTJ, and have been in a relationship with my ESTP boyfriend for over 4 years now. We've had our ups and downs, but it seems lately that as time goes on, we're drifting further apart. It doesn't help of course that we think very differently, or the fact that I have been abroad for the last two years. It also doesn't help that we had made plans to live abroad together, but he never followed me like he kept promising (with various valid or stupid excuses).

Our disagreements almost always boil down to misunderstandings. We're both T, so we have a hell of a time understanding our own emotions, let alone each other's.

He has a pretty relaxed attitude of "don't worry, be happy". This boils down to him having a pretty tough hide, since he just doesn't think about things that would be upsetting. Rarely if ever does he actually show me any kind of emotion at all. This generally doesn't bother me, but in some situations makes me feel like he doesn't really care about me, because things that normal people get all 'emotional' about he just meh's.

When we do argue, he has the tendency to get frustrated and walk away, then drops the problem under the table hoping it will just go away and he doesn't have to think about it. He has even went to bed in the middle of something and said that he'll just pick it up again in the morning, which drives me absolutely nuts because I want to solve it freakin now!

On my side of things, I admit that I'm not the easiest person to be around. I tend to overthink things to an extreme, and require lots of attention (kinda insecurely attached). Emotions aren't really my strong point, so when they do get a hold of me they are a hurricane. It's like I get dragged along by the current of a giant waterfall, and try as I might I just can't prevent myself from getting swept away.

Then there is my endless propensity to improve upon everything. It's like an addiction. I gotta pick and tweeze because it could be just that much better, potentially. And my general lack of social skills, except perhaps in front of a computer.

The thing is, even though we're so incompatible in a sense, we also do click so well, when we get our shit together. And we really do care for each other; I don't want to loose that.

I realize that this situation is really hard to judge just by reading my side of it, not knowing either one of us. But what I'm basically asking, since I suspect that a lot of our issues come from us being so drastically different personalities - how do you guys deal with dating 'non-INTJ' people? Is it even possible for us to date other personality types....? What can we do to stop grating on each other's nerves so very much?

Before you suggest this, we have talked about this. And talked. And talked. And talked. All it leads to is more frustration on both sides. He is frustrated that I even had to bring the problem up, because according to him, everything was alright 5 minutes ago, and I just surprised him out of the blue. I get frustrated because he sees every situation as a separate thing, and fails to grasp the pattern no matter how many times we rehash the issue, and because his amazing powers of picking up even minute stupid teeny details seem to fail utterly when it comes to me, making me feel unimportant in his eyes. How are things ever going to improve like this? Is it even possible to make this work?

Edit: Appreciate the post move, realized that it belonged in here after I made it... :wacky:

[Vagrant]

Question: Are you two physically separated (by your travels abroad)?

[mayumi]

He's cheating on you. And you have no real future with him that involves marriage and children.

Leave him, and put away one year to recover then find somebody new. Maybe an INFP. You'll be surprised at how much easier it is.

[Natsilani]

Nope, we're not physically separated, I just came back from abroad in September, we have been living together since then. Also, it's not possible for him to be cheating on me because we have an open relationship :)

[rahdam]

He's cheating on you. And you have no real future with him that involves marriage and children.

Leave him, and put away one year to recover then find somebody new. Maybe an INFP. You'll be surprised at how much easier it is.

How did you pick up on the infidelity?

OP: end the relationship and move on, its sounds nonfunctional.
You provided lots of details about what does not work.
You gave no details about what does work.
This tells me something.

[hullolife]

Agree with rahdam, the information you chose to present says a lot.

[kira]

Your description of your boyfriend reminds me of my experience with my current boyfriend several years ago. He was more ESTP when we first met (he was going through a post-breakup crisis) and we've decided he's ENtP now and been so for most of his life. Before I potentially complicate matters, I'll first state that I'm inclined to agree with the previous posters.

Back when my boyfriend (then friend) was more ESTP we didn't have a chance. It took a lot of pain for me to give up on the idea that he would change and that we would wind up together. He was quite self-centered and inconsiderate, but several years later that's changed. We were both insensitive towards the other's feelings, and still struggle a lot with this part now.

I've been thinking about why we often find ourselves attracted to people who are different in personality. One popular idea is that it addresses our weaknesses and challenges us to grow in those areas. However, a friend long ago said that my relationship choices reflect my subconscious avoidance of getting my needs (intimacy) met. She went so far as to suggest that I harbor some sort of self-hatred because I chose not to go out with guys whose personalities were more like mine (I found them boring at the time). I wrote this off when I was younger but am considering this more now. She's right that some solid relationships grow out of friendships that lacked the initial attraction, and that liking can be a learned thing.

That said, I can resolve my conflict with a boyfriend with a different personality in a couple of ways. I can develop more appreciation for the extroverted lifestyle and thus be more in synch with my boyfriend - joining him on social excursions rather than feeling jilted at home alone. Or I can, like my friend suggested, learn to like someone more like myself, who enjoys more intimate one-on-one time. So, to answer your question, this is how I'm dealing... rationalizing the thing to death and hoping to find the right path. Lol.

Just trying to present a way to think about attraction to different personalities. My advice: Whatever you do, don't wait for him to change. Unless he's the one who wants to work at it for himself, it might not happen. In the meantime you risk passing up people who you'd otherwise find compatible.

[Indubitably]

The N-S gap is often the hardest to breach, especially for INTJs because they have such high standards, and most INTJs often just don't see people who think less globally as being as intelligent they are. I have managed to make INTP-ISTP relationships work, but only because ISTPs are so independent that you literally have to do virtually no work to maintain the relationship.

I've heard a lot of people say that INTP-INTJ or ENTP-INTJ works very well because we compliment each other so completely, but its still a lot of work in some respects. I can't speak for ESTPs but one of the major issues I've had with J types in general is what I like to call the "needy-J factor". It is probably less pronounced in INTJs than any other type, but it is still there. Basically, extroversion of the primary judging function is dependent on external validation in order to feel a sense of accomplishment, and INTPs very much see this as a weakness. If you come to us saying "This absolutely HAS to be done" we see virtually no difference from you saying "I am weak, and needy, and can't do this by myself". Of course, we can to a degree tolerate people close to us being weak, we may loose respect for them, but we can tolerate it. What really starts to annoy the hell out of us is when people start to suggest that they are entitled to have us bail them out of their needs. Basically the response you are going to get in that situation is "this is your weakness, something you got yourself into because YOU are dependent on external validation. I don't need any of this, and if you are so incompetent and needy that you have to resort to black mail to get out of your own mess, you aren't even worth my time." If this kind of behavior drags on we start to think of you as a dead weight, a barnacle stuck to the side of our hull and we will resent you.

The only way you can solve that problem is by recognizing the difference in your needs and your lover's needs. INTPs really only need one thing, to learn, to further their understanding of anything and everything they encounter, and to grow as an individual. ISTPs pretty much only need a roll of duct tape and a hunting knife to be happy. Hell, they don't even need that, if there is a sharp rock laying around they can always carve a sticky strip of bark off a near by tree. You could drop them off in the middle of the woods with nothing but the clothes on their back and in a few hours they would have a cozy make shift lean-to erected.

INTJs are pretty good at self examination though. If you reexamine your true needs well enough to gain some perspective about the situation and assume a proactive roll in cleaning up after those needs, an INTP will usually recognize your effort and offer to help of his or her own accord. This is like saying "Ok, yeah, I do need this thing to be happy, but I know its not your fault that I need it, and Im trying my best to make it work by myself and I could use a little help from you".

Just be as absolutely honest as you can be, honest with yourself and honest with your partner, and you should be able to come to an understanding. Anyway I don't know if this advice will extend as well to ESFPs as INTPs, but hopefully it will help provide you with some insight.

[mayumi]

How did you pick up on the infidelity?

OP: end the relationship and move on, its sounds nonfunctional.
You provided lots of details about what does not work.
You gave no details about what does work.
This tells me something.

I was just being succinct and went straight to my conclusions.

He's a male ESTP (or at least that's how Natsilani sees him if he hasn't been tested) with opportunity to cheat, and various bad excuses he made. And various excuses she made for being who she is, and the unavoidable interplay of their relationship. If all was well and there really was so much caring going back and forth, Natsilani wouldn't need that many excuses and rationalizing.

But since Natsilani says it's an open relationship... I don't want to be to harsh, but Natsilani, you have the short end of the stick. Four years!

[reb]

Natsilani,
this is 'free', so use it as you will:

all relationships are temporary; if in no other way, death will part people. having said that, do what you 'feel', if you can figure that out, or do what you 'think' if you can't get 'feel'. figuring out 'feel' always gave me trouble, and i hung around women i shoulda dumped on the third date, which is now obvious to me...wasted time.

i told an older woman on a diet last night 'you can lose weight, but you can't lose age'. time is a 'real world' limitation. you get to choose how you spend yours....don't let anyone else choose for you.

[mayumi]

Natsilani,
this is 'free', so use it as you will:

all relationships are temporary; if in no other way, death will part people. having said that, do what you 'feel', if you can figure that out, or do what you 'think' if you can't get 'feel'. figuring out 'feel' always gave me trouble, and i hung around women i shoulda dumped on the third date, which is now obvious to me...wasted time.

i told an older woman on a diet last night 'you can lose weight, but you can't lose age'. time is a 'real world' limitation. you get to choose how you spend yours....don't let anyone else choose for you.


With my hips, I can pop 3 babies in 4 year! "P...just saying.

[LaoTzu]

It's nice to see this post here, as I am going through a similar situation.... thought about posting about it, but Im relatively new and didnt think it was appropriate.

My live-in fiancee took a truck driving job in the spring, and has been doing long haul 3 weeks of every month since. A month ago, she called to say she was going to move out, as our relationship wasnt working anymore. She attacked me on my lack of motivation to improve our surroundings, and the fact she doesnt want to live in the city we're in, as she grew up in the country. But basically, seh doesnt think we work together anymore. I cant disagree on that.... but the distance was the problem I thought, and she's only going to drive for a year, so I thought we could ride it out.

On further examination, it seems we have serious communication issues. I thought it was the distance driving, but it was so much more. It's been going bad for longer than that.

I spoke with her mother, who she is staying with right now (I went to see the ex, but she wasnt home)... and she enlightened me to some serious issues in the Ex's past that made it hard for her to be as outwardly affectionate as I needed her to be.... things I already knew about, but never really crunched the numbers on to realize how her past trauma's were affecting her todays.

She's fully functional... but has closed herself off emotionally. She can say she cares, just cant bring herself to act on it; and to me it brings feelings of doubt about her commitment to me. Every time I get that feeling, I build another part of a wall around me, until eventually she cant connect with me anymore. It was an automatic response, but I think that I recognize it now; that maybe I can control that part of my personality.

Now im stuck wondering if I should work on getting back together... Part of me says that I can do it if I want to.... but another tells me she will never be what I need her to be emotionally. I do need that constant affection, and have lost relationships before because of this fact. I cant confidently say that our relationship has made me happy... but It was comforting and stable, and had it's moments.... and should I really expect more, or work on getting it from who I am with right now?

Just scared of moving on again. this would be the third time I have invested many years in a relationship ... so it's easy to want to keep hanging on, even if I know it will not bring me pure joy. But to tell the truth.... Im just numb from it now.... and a bit scared of going it alone.

And part of me enjoys the challenge of putting it all back together :P


I dont know if this helps Nats. But maybe knowing you arent the only one feeling this way at this time will give you some solace. I think you are feeling the same as me about the relationships we have atm.

To speak to your situation: when you live at a distance for a while, and come back... you might expect things to be normal... but it doesnt work that way.
The little annoyances you put up with on an everyday basis become huge problems when you get dropped back into the everyday life you were used to having. Then there is the little resentments of sharing space... and time again... of being demanded of, even if it is ever so gently. It is difficult to recapture the past feelings. And maybe you should work into it slowly... like you were dating again and it was fresh. Not a clean start per se, but gently move back into your comfort zones, rather than thinking that all will return to perfection the second you walk back into each others lives. Talking from a distance is one thing, sharing the same airspace is another.... take it slow, and show him you care.... it should be returned in kind.

[Natsilani]

Thank you all for your insights so far.

I agree that in my original post, I did not state much that works, and a lot that doesn't. But it wasn't really a question of whether we should break up or not, I was just wondering if there is anything more I could do to make this work better. I've been inclined to leave this relationship for a while, but I guess we both are to stubborn to just let this die :/

Leave him, and put away one year to recover then find somebody new. Maybe an INFP. You'll be surprised at how much easier it is.
I’ve dated an F person before. It was a disaster of nuclear proportions, because I’m about as sensitive to other people’s feelings as a wooden spoon. It has gotten better, but not enough for that to work. F’s are sworn off for me :P

My advice: Whatever you do, don't wait for him to change. Unless he's the one who wants to work at it for himself, it might not happen. In the meantime you risk passing up people who you'd otherwise find compatible.
That's pretty good advice! Our major cause of friction actually doesn't lie in the Intravert vs Extravert issue, but the Intuitive vs Sensor one. Neither one of us really understands how the other thinks, so it is very difficult to accept and move on.

What really starts to annoy the hell out of us is when people start to suggest that they are entitled to have us bail them out of their needs.
[...]
The only way you can solve that problem is by recognizing the difference in your needs and your lover's needs.
[...]
If you reexamine your true needs well enough to gain some perspective about the situation and assume a proactive roll in cleaning up after those needs, an INTP will usually recognize your effort and offer to help of his or her own accord.
[...]
Just be as absolutely honest as you can be, honest with yourself and honest with your partner, and you should be able to come to an understanding. Anyway I don't know if this advice will extend as well to ESFPs as INTPs, but hopefully it will help provide you with some insight.
Oh wow.. you so hit the nail on the head on a large percentage of our arguments with that entitelement issue. And we have been down the road of trying to meet each other’s needs. The problem is, either I’m just no good at expressing them, or he doesn’t understand them. He’s pretty much happy with whatever, if it requires focus and concentration though he looses interest. So it becomes a one-sided argument of me trying to convince him to help meet my needs. I know, I know, this sounds completely futile, but the thing that makes us so incompatible is in fact also a large advantage, because in effect he is impervious to my continuous exploration of how to make things better that sends others running for the hills. It just has to be possible to make this work dammit..

I was just being succinct and went straight to my conclusions.

He's a male ESTP (or at least that's how Natsilani sees him if he hasn't been tested) with opportunity to cheat, and various bad excuses he made. And various excuses she made for being who she is, and the unavoidable interplay of their relationship. If all was well and there really was so much caring going back and forth, Natsilani wouldn't need that many excuses and rationalizing.

But since Natsilani says it's an open relationship... I don't want to be to harsh, but Natsilani, you have the short end of the stick. Four years!
Honestly, I have to disagree entirely with this. The openness of our relationship frees us both to pursue our kinks and interests without the inevitable clash that they bring to monogamous relationships (erm, won’t be going into details here). And the fact that we are able to have an open relationship, as well a share so many kinks, is what makes this relationship so appealing for me to want to keep.

Agreed, I’m rationalizing a lot here, because I don’t want to depend on my emotions to draw the bottom line in my decisions, even though they are paradoxically what are keeping us together..

Doing what I ‘feel’ is scary and leads to seriously bad decision making, considering how entirely chaotic my emotions are. Emotions cannot be trusted.

Just scared of moving on again. this would be the third time I have invested many years in a relationship ... so it's easy to want to keep hanging on, even if I know it will not bring me pure joy. But to tell the truth.... Im just numb from it now.... and a bit scared of going it alone.
Yeah that’s a part of what’s going on inside me too..

Talking from a distance is one thing, sharing the same airspace is another.... take it slow, and show him you care.... it should be returned in kind.
That’s a very good point. Maybe backing away and restarting from a different angle will help.

For a little bit of further background (as if you guys don’t already think I’m completely insane *sigh*), I’m bipolar. An extremely traumatic experience related to psychiatrists in the past also means that a) I will never be medicated and b) I have severe trust issues. Seriously, a part of me thinks that I’m lucky to have any person to stand in the hurricane that is my mind and survive intact.. Not a great reason for a relationship, agreed, but when it boils right down to it, I seriously care about him, and want to spend my life together with him. I just wish that my emotional needs didn’t get left behind, because as unimportant and chaotic as my emotions are, a relationship is incomplete and one-sided without a little consideration from both partners.

Anyways, all your feedback really helps me see a different side of the issue, thank you so much. After what seems like trying just about anything I’ve been able to come up with, it is nice to come out of a dead end and have some leads again! It is so great to interact with people who tend to think along the same lines as me.. Any further feedback will be much appreciated as well :)

Edit: oh, by the way, he is a self-confirmed ESTP according to a personality test he took, so we're pretty sure of that.

[OrrDavey]

He is almost certainly cheating on you. He likes to have a backup plan for sex when you two are together. Or maybe he wants to have a place to stay if he decides to travel (sounds nice to me).

Long distance relationships do NOT work in most cases, especially when someone is of such a different personality type (I think you could maybe pull it off with someone similar to INTJ).

Is this your first relationship? Or second? If so, that is why you are not seeing this clear as day. I am sorry to break it to you, but it is already over even if you don't really know it yet.

Edit: And I really mean it, he IS cheating on you.

[Natsilani]

Oy. Ok, let me try to put to rest all these cheating theories, because this is getting a little funny. I mean, open relationship kinda implies that he can fuck whoever he wants and it doesn't matter to me. Hell I'd watch. And encourage him. Probably make a video for later.

But anyway, here's my evidence:
- we live together. Thus, I witness him coming home every night, and sleep in his own bed.
- when he is not at work, he is gaming with his friends, or at his part time job.
- everywhere else, we go together, and sometimes I have been known to stop by his work or hang out with his gaming buddies at random
- and really, the most important piece of evidence: why go through all the trouble of 'sneaking around' when simply telling me (even after the fact) would have the effect of "oooh, tell me all about her, can I meet her?", and he knows this?

Yes, it is physically possible for him to be 'cheating' without me knowing about it. But really, why bother?

And OrrDavey, this is my third long-term relationship. For him? He lost count. I knew that was what I was getting myself into when we first started dating, and it really just started as an "ooh, shiney, let's play with that for a while" kind of thing. Surprisingly, it turned out to be so much more, and dammit all I want it to last.

[mayumi]

I'm a bit out of my depth giving you advice, but here it is anyways.

The glue that is keeping your relationship together is your capacity to put up and compromise. Which might be alright with you because you say you also want somebody who can put up with you (and kinks). So accordingly, you are giving as much as you are getting (kink wise), as a pair of odd-balls that do not fit in conventional society.

But now your capacity to put up and compromise (with incompatibility) is nearing critical mass, and you find yourself on shaky relationship grounds. You want to keep this relationship, as you have indicated, but can you pay the price.

If one finds it in ones self, tolerance of a tree, it is possible to keep any relationship one wants. Even those that don't want you as much. Natsilani, compromise and compromise and more effort, you will make everything work. It all now comes down to your stamina. Like the inspiring Frida Khalo, and her depth for physical and emotional pain.





mayumi added to this post, 1 minutes and 14 seconds later...

Good Luck. Hope you get what you want!

[kira]

Yeah, the N-S divide is difficult, but understanding and effort can help the relationship work. I'm not dealing with an S in a romantic relationship, but I've noticed how my INTJ father manages the N-S conflict between him and my ESTJ mother (married for over 35 years). They don't take things too seriously. They're mindful of each other's strengths and weaknesses. My father's learned that he doesn't need to convince my mother to see things his way. My mother's wonderful in a lot of other ways, he focuses on those aspects, and has decided that what she has to offer is enough for him.

I have an ESTJ sister as well, and I've learned how to deal with her in a healthier way. This is what I'm doing (and what I suspect my father could be doing in his own mind) as I deal with her. I try to imagine what it's like to see issues through her preferences at all times. Last weekend she and I discussed politics. This is something that would normally lead to an argument. In the past, my frustration over her inability to draw the "right" conclusions would piss her off. However, when I use my imagination and pretend to think like an S - trusting the concrete information in the microcosm of her life and not making the connections like I'm used to - I find myself much more able to say, "Yes, I totally see how you arrived at that." I can still think she's wrong but I tell myself it's not my job to try to get her think like an N type would. I realize she's doing the best that she can.

I realize that your N-S conflicts over relationship matters probably have more of a sense of urgency than ones over political issues. However, it just seems the onus is on N types to use their imaginative prowess to step into the S type's shoes. So along with trying to slow down and be patient, see if that works.

I also want to say I'm glad you posted this Natsilani. This got my wheels turning and has helped me clarify my own relationships challenges as well.