Need Advice-INFP that has fallen in love with INTJ

[dreamcatcher]

Hello, I am an INFP with a huge huge problem. This is going to be lengthy but please read through it because it is so important to me and I feel that I need insight from like minded people with the man that I have fallen in love with. Please read through for your fellow INTJ'r. I really need input. He is a very strong INTJ, and through reading a lot of these forums I feel as though I understand a lot more what has been going on between us, yet I am still not sure if I should throw in the towel or just give it more time. I have spent the past 5 or 6 months developing a high level of "intimacy" with an INTJ -not physically, but mentally - I met him through mutual friends at college and we have a lot of common interests. We began messaging over facebook but these messages where more or less letters over a year and a half ago, and finally began spending time with eachother about 5 months ago. We are very different but our compatibility or unspoken "potential" is incredible. I could talk with him for hours. His "INTJness" I began to understand. As an INFP, it is hard for me to empathize with what that is LIKE, but I do understand it.

The problem for me was that about a month ago I began to grow tired of him not even putting his arm around me. i didn't know where we stood, I didn't know if it was just friendship to him but I couldn't understand his intentionality of "friendship" if that was all that it was. So (as lame as this sounds, so much of our relationship has been through letters) I asked him point blank if he had feelings for me. He responded by giving me a very intellectualized answer, saying that we were emotionally mentally physically and cinematically (ha!) compatible but he was merely "basking in our potentiality"....this answer was very long and drawn out. I labeled him as "narcissist, schizoid" what have you and didn't really respond, and decided to not question further. He then wrote me another letter taking back what he had said and told me that his feelings were "wishy washy" and he hadn't decided yet if he wanted to pursue me and that he thought I deserved more than that and that was why he didn't say "yes"-he didn't feel "unambiguous" enough to say yes or ask me to commit to him (which is not what I was asking, but he mistook me for asking). Needless to say, we got past this (somehow)-and continue to stay in contact.

He has said one or two things recently that border flirtation about the way I look, or has even admitted to "missing me" and apologized for not being able to express his gratitude for my friendship, etc.

Here is my question: do I give up? Does it sound as though he is interested in me or just caught between me being a female and having a deep connection? I am MORE than willing to be patient with him, as long as it takes. Not to offend any INTJ's, but I feel as though his personality type wasn't so strong or if he were "normal" (GAHHH i hate using that-sorry!) that we would definitely be dating. I am a very attractive, intelligent and confident person, and I have not fallen in love with him for any other reason than I really deeply care about him. Regardless, I know that my own heart is at stake. Does it sound as though it is in my best interest to stay the course or does it sound like he will probably bail anyway if I try to pull feelings out of him again? Or will he eventually come around? Please just let me know your reaction to my predicament.

[Marcus]

Your story seems typical, and the honest answer is that I don't know the answer.

It's a kind of catch-22. An INTJ is not likely to commit without knowing that it is going to work (in the long run), but he isn't likely to find it out without trying.

I suppose that his answer was honest (which tend to be the case with INTJs). "Basking in your potentiality" means that he's considering you to be more than just a friend.

[Monte314]

He is unlikely to be as in-touch with his feelings as you are with yours. I suspect that he doesn't really know how to react, and is probably honestly trying to understand his own feelings (i.e., over analysing).

I suggest that you be patient, but persistent.

[Necrosis]

Remember, just like anything else he's looking at a relationship with you logically, not emotionally. He is probably trying to figure out it it will 'work' which you can't entirely do before actually diving in to a relationship. He is at least talking to you and telling you where he stands. Give him the facts as to why it would be good help him to figure it out.

Sorry were not so emotional lol. It's just who we are. Ask yourself if your really okay with that in the long run.

[Alexander]

My knee-jerk reaction here speaking a little from my own personal experience as an INTJ.

Challenge him. But not in the way you probably think.

I like to have physical contact such as arms around each other, holding hands, etc. But that wasn't always so. I learned to like them though, or to put it in a better way, it was brought out of me. Somewhere in him there's a reason why he doesn't do things you want and you're probably gonna have to be the one that brings it out. Could be shyness, insecurity, not quite sure if it's ok for one reason or another, or he just feels awkward with no apparent reason. There is the possibility that he just doesn't' like these things, but that's doubtful, we're all human after all.

Somehow show him how much fun it is to hold hands, put arms around one another, that relationships don't need to be intellectualized (that there's something unseen to it "you don't have to tell me were we stand, let's just have fun with it and see where it goes"), and anything else you think he's missing. You don't have to sit down and have a conversation specifically about it, be creative. Find out why he "doesn't like it," turn it on its head and give him an opportunity to really enjoy it. If he's never been comfortable doing these things or being relaxed about a relationship and you bring that out of him, he'll be eternally grateful. It is quite fun after all. :) Don't push it too hard though, some things I imagine just aren't him and you might just have to live with.

Don't try and fit yourself into his world, show him a bit of yours.

How old are both of you BTW?

[Marcus]

He is unlikely to be as in-touch with his feelings as you are with yours. I suspect that he doesn't really know how to react, and is probably honestly trying to understand his own feelings (i.e., over analysing).

This might be misleading. I tend to be in touch with my feelings, but need to see the long term consequences before committing. But well, I was much less in touch with them during college.

[dreamcatcher]

Thanks so much for your input. I am 21, and he is 24. I'm afraid I made it sound as though we are without having said it "dating"-the truth is I still don't know where we stand, not even a little bit. He seems to get weird as soon as he says something nice if I respond back equally nicely, it's almost like he's afraid of being too vulnerable. He is uncomfortable and has told me he is uncomfortable with expressing emotion but I feel as though we are very far from being able to have a conversation, because I don't want to completely scare him off. I also don't want to fall more in love with him only to be burned in the end.





dreamcatcher added to this post, 2 minutes and 34 seconds later...

And I also just have to say that it is SO nice to be able to talk with people that "understand" the person that I have been trying to explain to my girl friends for the past 6 months ("no really he's wonderful he just can't express himself") begins to sound like I'm making excuses for a person who is obviously not that interested in me..but in my heart of hearts, i just feel like we could be so good together.

[Marcus]

I have spent the past 5 or 6 months developing a high level of "intimacy" with an INTJ

I'm afraid I made it sound as though we are without having said it "dating"-the truth is I still don't know where we stand, not even a little bit.

How often do you meet him?

[Josephine1012]

Thanks so much for your input. I am 21, and he is 24. I'm afraid I made it sound as though we are without having said it "dating"-the truth is I still don't know where we stand, not even a little bit. He seems to get weird as soon as he says something nice if I respond back equally nicely, it's almost like he's afraid of being too vulnerable. He is uncomfortable and has told me he is uncomfortable with expressing emotion but I feel as though we are very far from being able to have a conversation, because I don't want to completely scare him off. I also don't want to fall more in love with him only to be burned in the end.

I'm really sorry to hear this, it's very rough.

The truth is I recently came out of similar type wishy washy relationship, the kind where him saying he loved me meant he had to cut contact off for a week after that.

I don't know if it's INTJish trait in general, but I tend to think it's lack of maturity and experience more than anything else.

Hindsight, i don't think it's worth it to do it to yourself (but you probably won't listen :) ). As a result of that situation, I'm of a strong opinion that for all intents and purposes a person either really wants you or they don't. There is no in between.

I by no means claim to have an answer, but here is my opinion: There might be a ton of difficulties and and uncertainties going on with him, but if the situation is making you unhappy it's best to call it quits. Because chances are he won't be in a place that does make you happy in the near future.

[dreamcatcher]

That's probably sound advice, josephine. I haven't seen him for over a few weeks, because he went home to visit his parents but he is coming back in a couple weeks. Before he left we had quite a "breakthrough" time spent together but he writes me 4 or 5 times a week (he hates technology hah..also frustrating). I guess it is one of those "hindsight's 20/20 things" that I can already see messing me up for the next 6 months but refuse to give up, and was hoping that I would be advised to not give up but it sounds like perhaps I should..

[Marcus]

If you give it up, then it might also push him to make a decision. I'm not suggesting you to play games, though.

[dreamcatcher]

And, Marcus, by intimacy I mean his type of intimacy, intellectual intimacy, having 4 hour conversations over bread and wine type things, but not necessarily the type of intimacy where I feel comfortable saying "when are you going to make a move"

[Marcus]

Most INTJs need more time to mature (like the best wines. ;))

[Sinequanon]

I'll (hopefully) help you realize (my or) the INTJ mind by means of a bit of catharsis for myself: Relationships are making me realize I'm absolutely a "J". As much as I don't care about rigid schedules or tidiness, I definitely do seem to build boxes and systems and procedures in my head, I suppose. There's a certain distaste for crossing out of those boxes without an extremely clear signal, or set of signals. Everything has to be contextualized to "mean" something, even feelings, even relationships. But these boxes, I'm realizing, are the worst, because as much as I trust my SO, I am finding that without explicitly defining things I have a super difficult time letting go sometimes. I think in your case, he is working in the opposite direction - once he defines what your relationship "is", he's made a commitment to you that means a number of extremely significant things to him. This may be foreign to a mind coded to work in an INFP mode.

I'm constructing, constantly. Trying to construct a future, trying to put pieces in place for my long-term plans. A couple of years ago, I wouldn't have been ready for any sort of relationship, no matter how strong she came on. If a girl had approached me, and it wasn't some sort of very loose, primal sort of thing (i.e. "just sex") then it would have forced me to withdraw, absolutely. I would have been forced to reimagine what my future would be with her, whether I would be willing to include her in my life, in my longterm plans, and eventually, even in my short term plans. How much do I have to change for her (I don't mean the sorts of fundamental changes that can damage a relationship, but even just devoting the normal time that one would have to to maintain even a casual relationship is "change" on some level, is it not?)? How much energy is she asking me to invest in her? Am I ready to settle down for good? Does she fit with my own values? Am I ready to be married? Could I be a good father? On and on...

At 24, he might be considering all of these questions. He might be cross-referencing that with data about how relationships between people as young as the two of you are (especially you) don't tend to "work" in the long term. If he can't see a reason it will work in the long term, it doesn't really appeal to him. Yet, there are emotions (and huge societal pressures) that are forcing him to be with you (or "someone"). Again, on and on...

We are prone to overanalysis, and, I am presuming, you are prone to not pushing people to make a decision, but at some point, one of you will have to make things a lot simpler between the two of you. He's a man, and you're a woman. You like one another. He wouldn't be bothering with you if he didn't (especially spending time doing something he doesn't like to do, like email) on some real level. Tell him that you just want to see where it goes, and to let go a little, also telling him that you're letting go an equal amount. Hopefully, him realizing that you're sacrificing some control as well will help him meet you in the middle. Kiss him. :)

[Vagrant]

What was said earlier: Be patient, but persistent.

Why? It'll make him realize what you are to him.

Push him a little out of his comfort zone and more into yours. Tickle him, play with him, flirt. While it's not guaranteed to work, it'll make up his mind. The more you show him exactly who you are, the more material he'll have to really know if he wants to be with you.

[Monte314]

My wife is an INFP and I am an INTJ, and she kept after me for two years while I pretty much ignored her. We've been together 32 years now.

[blueback]

We tend to avoid risks; especially relationship risks. As INTJs we know what we know, and we also know what we don't know. We generally don't know much about relationships, and we know it, so we see the risks. It's not a matter of WHETHER OR NOT we will make mistakes it's HOW MANY and HOW BAD they will be.

Your INTJ is obviously interested in you. Since you weren't stuck on a bus together he wouldn't be spending 4 hours talking to you if he didn't actively like you.

I think what he is taking his time with is understanding you. People are messy. There aren't very many good textbooks on people that allow you to understand them before you have to deal with them. He has probably approached most things in his life by carefully learning as much as he can before he actually attempts something new. As INTJs that is an efficient strategy for us because we are capable of truly understanding a new system through study alone, which minimizes our learning curve.

So, here is my advice. Granted I don't know him, or you, so this is based on my understanding of people in general.

* The best way to guess what a person will do in the future is to understand what they have done in the past. Emotions are reactions to stimulation, like a reflex. The best way for him to predict how you will react emotionally to events in the future is for you to clearly explain to him how you have reacted emotionally to events in the past. You don't have to be obvious about it. You could simply make an effort to go into more detail about things you react to emotionally and what exactly about the situation triggers those emotions in you.

* We don't have an intuition about emotional situations. We can learn the patterns over time, but even then it will take deliberate thought to understand how a particular action will affect our partner. You can help him through this learning process by being clear about what you want him to do to make you feel good and what to avoid so that you don't feel bad. If you are walking out of a movie and you want him to take your hand, tell him so. Tell him it makes you feel good. Be specific. Be prepared to answer some strange questions.

* Keep in mind that INTJs show affection in unusual ways. For most people the statement "I like you a lot" is used when they like you a lot. However, if an INTJ voluntarily spends 4 hours talking to you that is equivalent to the statement "I like you a lot." We are so comfortable being alone that we will usually pick isolation over spending time with people that we simply lack interest in, let alone people we actively dislike.

* I guess the most important thing is to realize that he will want you to be very clear. It is the rare INTJ who hears their partner say "You should know why I'm upset" and doesn't immediately start to dislike them. Our emotional needs are relatively minor, so if you have emotional needs you will have to be clear about them. If you're the sort of person who feels like their partner should magically understand how they feel and why then you should not be with an INTJ. It's not that he won't try, it's that he will suck at understanding your emotions. If explaining your emotions to him makes you feel like he doesn't care about you enough to figure them out on his own then your relationship will not work.

[Marcus]

People are messy. There aren't very many good textbooks on people that allow you to understand them before you have to deal with them.

That's why I got stuck in this forum. Type theory is the manual :)

[dreamcatcher]

Wow this has been so helpful, you have no idea. I have actually picked up on that-it isn't an apathy to my feelings, it is a true inability to understand them. It's endearing but I also know it could lead to frustration, and like I said I am going in eyes wide open. It is more a matter of convincing him that it's okay. This is so interesting to me, that you can give so much advice on a person that you do not even know simply because he is this "type". Astounding.

[BlackCat]

INTJ feelings are very hard to crack, I am friends with a decent bit of INTJs. Don't give up. From what I've seen, INTJs aren't very good with expressing their feelings, and they may try to cover that up with logic. If they start to do this, it's a good sign. That means you are getting "under their skin," you are starting to prevail in their emotional struggle. He is interested in you! Remember this! Even if it looks like he is ignoring you, just shower him with love and eventually you will break him in. Show an interest in his intellectual pursuits, show an interest in the things he likes and his hobbies. This will help you, as it has helped me.

[Marcus]

If you're the sort of person who feels like their partner should magically understand how they feel and why then you should not be with an INTJ. It's not that he won't try, it's that he will suck at understanding your emotions.

It improves with time/experience. I tend to see the emotional state of other people and I can figure out the underlying reasons. It's rather that we tend to ignore how we come across to other persons.

[blueback]

Good posts all around.

I had one more thought that didn't fully form until after I had posted that.

* You should go into it very aware that we do not value things which are unqualified. There are a lot of people in the world who value "unconditional love" (for example) as the highest good. This is not something INTJs agree with. Because we spend our entire life carefully building a system to understand the world we do not like it when people claim to understand the world BECAUSE they have stopped thinking about it. Claiming that unconditional love is a good thing is basically the same as saying that we are stupid for trying so hard to use cold evidence and logic and someone else is smart for jumping to warm-fuzzy conclusions. It can be difficult for other types to realize they are hitting on this idea because it is deeply embeded in our culture. He might not consciously understand his revulsion at irrationality, but it will be there none-the-less. If you, for example, express the sentiment that America should shower Africa with free food SIMPLY BECAUSE they need it you will be hitting on this topic. If you can't support that conclusion with evidence or logic you are saying that it is better to act on bumper sticker feelings than practical thought. At first he might think your way of looking at the world is different or endearing, but if you actually act on thoughts like that it will cause him to lose respect for you.

[Marcus]

Blueback, we still have introverted feeling as tertiary function, so we're not that cold inside.

[dreamcatcher]

Blueback-I appreciate your words of wisdom, and it is funny the example of "america showering africa with free food" because I am a "philanthropist" of my own sorts, however I am very conscious of logic, and the reason me and this INTJ do get along so well (thus far) is that he has told me he believes that I can "see through bullshit" - we have the same worldview, just not the same.. way of expressing ourselves. So..in terms of things like that...I know I have won him over simply through "being myself" (whatever that means). Something that I did not include is that he is very "religious" (it is intellectualized, liturgical), we go to a liberal arts social justice fighting christian school - so our worldviews in that way have also been shaped similarly, so we do have that going for our compatibility.

[ElstonGunn]

My guess is that you overestimated your compatibility with him. My roundabout advice is that patience is useless in your situation, in that it's just a nicer way of saying that you plan on waiting for him to act, and in the meantime, doing nothing yourself.

[Vagrant]

Blueback, we still have introverted feeling as tertiary function, so we're not that cold inside.

We're not, but logic often supersedes emotions. I know we have the ability to shut down emotions for a certain period of time. However, in my case, the longer I shut down my emotions, the greater it comes back to kick me in the head.

[blueback]

Blueback, we still have introverted feeling as tertiary function, so we're not that cold inside.
How cold is "that cold?"

I could have included a warning that my opinion might come across as unqualified, but I hoped that the first line would cover that. Oh well. Yes, I understand that everyone is different, even when they think the same way. I also understand that there are more nuances to our INTJ-ness than I included in that summary. I tried to express a nomral curve in a single value so I had to pick the average. The structure of a normal curve dictates that if you understand the area around the average (one standard deviation) you will understand 68% of the population. That means there is a 68% chance that what I said applied to her INTJ. That's close enough for horse shoes and hand grenades.

[iuniperus]

I really wish I had some great insight to give you, but I don't. The best thing I could tell you is what I've personally experienced with INTJs.

I have found that generally INTJs like to make decisions and like to be in control, but at the same time they can be uncharacteristically indecisive about certain things if there is the least bit of doubt. They want to be absolutely sure they're making the right choice before making a decision. So, the cogs are turning in your INTJ's brain; weighing out the pros and cons of the situation in a logically manner. Is this good or bad?

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

[Menosthenes]

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

Reading the OP's story, it seems as if the INTJ here has also recognized that, and ironically it seems this only adds to his indecisiveness; because even if it was a "kinda yes", he seems to realize that the "kinda" is a bit insulting.

I get this thought from here:
he hadn't decided yet if he wanted to pursue me and that he thought I deserved more than that and that was why he didn't say "yes"-

[Marcus]

How cold is "that cold?"

Your advice was OK, I just found the overall tone of your post a bit exaggerated: Beware, we don't have emotions, if you don't like that then you shouldn't bother.

We're not, but logic often supersedes emotions. I know we have the ability to shut down emotions for a certain period of time. However, in my case, the longer I shut down my emotions, the greater it comes back to kick me in the head.

Agreed.

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

But you experience/interpret the world differently. INTJs keep emotions under control unless they are convinced it's safe to follow them. For us, it's more difficult to recover emotionally if we make a mistake there. And how can you love someone sincerely if you don't know him/her fully? You can love an idealized image of someone, but that's not the real person.

And why is it a problem that we need time to decide? Do you prefer flipping from one bad relationship to another?

[blueback]

Your advice was OK, I just found the overall tone of your post a bit exaggerated: Beware, we don't have emotions, if you don't like that then you shouldn't bother.

I figured that was the biggest risk. INTJs are pretty competent in every other area, or can become so with a little effort.

I figured someone who didn't intuitively understand us would need to have their attention focused for them. Like, "No, really, the emotions thing is going to be weird. Seriously, you have no idea." Etc. She won't care about whether or not he has emotions as much as she'll care about how he makes her feel. Since feelings depend, to a large extent, on perceptions I thought it was important that she have the correct perception.

It seemed to me that the greatest potential for dissatisfaction with the arrangement would be when she got the relationship started and expected him to suddenly start being emotional (like most people would). So I tried to foxus her attention on the fact that that probably wouldn't happen in a way she was used to seeing.

[Marcus]

I suddenly start being emotional in a relationship. At least versus the partner. Of course, I won't start pouring food into Africa.

[dreamcatcher]

Haha, I think this whole notion of "pouring food over Africa" is hilarious. I did not know that emotion = pouring food over Africa. Ohhh you INTJ's you :)

Thanks for everyone's responses, it has been really helpful. I think I've realized that I do need to let go, because regardless of whether or not he is interested he obviously does not reciprocate my intensity of feelings and in order to preserve my dignity and maintain sanity I do need to let go. Whether or not that means losing an INTJ, we have yet to tell, but if it does, maybe I'm just not going to be the girl to break him out of his shell.

This is all easier said than done, of course. But your responses have truly been a reality check and I thank you for that.

[blueback]

As they say: It's not you, it's him. It's not that there aren't a lot of people who could be happy with you, it's that there aren't very many people who could be happy with him.

[Marcus]

I think you might have misunderstood it. We do have feelings, and they can be as much intense as yours. But we don't express them so lightly. I wonder about the intensity of your feelings if you let yourself sway by a couple of post in a forum.

[SimplyOtter]

Dear Dreamcatcher, I've been where you are now, with the same doubts and painful confusion; the conclusion I have reached, in one year time, is that both of these people are right:

I really wish I had some great insight to give you, but I don't. The best thing I could tell you is what I've personally experienced with INTJs.

I have found that generally INTJs like to make decisions and like to be in control, but at the same time they can be uncharacteristically indecisive about certain things if there is the least bit of doubt. They want to be absolutely sure they're making the right choice before making a decision. So, the cogs are turning in your INTJ's brain; weighing out the pros and cons of the situation in a logically manner. Is this good or bad?

IMO I wouldn't be so patient. Maybe I'm just an overly prideful INFP but the thought putting in all that effort while the INTJ is taking his sweet time deciding is, well, insulting. I wouldn't want someone who had to decide if he likes me or not. There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.


But you experience/interpret the world differently. INTJs keep emotions under control unless they are convinced it's safe to follow them. For us, it's more difficult to recover emotionally if we make a mistake there. And how can you love someone sincerely if you don't know him/her fully? You can love an idealized image of someone, but that's not the real person.

And why is it a problem that we need time to decide? Do you prefer flipping from one bad relationship to another?

INTJ's show feelings and emotions in a completely different way. It's misleading thinking that they don't care, it's misleading thinking that they care. The true question is: how this makes you feel?
The only way an emotional INFP can handle a deep feeling for an INTJ is with something very unnatural for us, with detachment. It doesn't mean coldness. It means just detachment. Enough to preserve that pride of ours.

I write you just very few things as they are the only ones I am quite sure of. The rest is still a big mistery. But it's a mistery that has changed my life, this is how deep it is.

Be strong.:)

[Marcus]

As they say: It's not you, it's him.

I'd say, it always takes two to dance.

[dreamcatcher]

Hmmmmmm...Marcus, I understood what you were saying. It just reminds me of my INTJ in this way of generalizing things, so that people who are interested in world hunger are all "pouring food over Africa" --not necessarily that I did not understand what you were saying, more that I thought it was funny because it reminds me so much of this guy. And also, my intensity of feelings is sort of insulting to be questioned.. being "swayed" by a few people in a forum is not really what is happening, I think that what I have feared all along was further reinforced. And anyway, I will probably change my mind in an hour. I am an INFP, after all.

[Marcus]

It just reminds me of my INTJ in this way of generalizing things, so that people who are interested in world hunger are all "pouring food over Africa"

I used that example to respond to blueback. It's not the way I view this question.

And also, my intensity of feelings is sort of insulting to be questioned..
Actually, you questioning the intensity of the feelings of INTJs was insulting, too.

I just tried to help you and this is what I get.

[dreamcatcher]

Touche.

[ArgentOunce]

I think I've realized that I do need to let go, because regardless of whether or not he is interested he obviously does not reciprocate my intensity of feelings and in order to preserve my dignity and maintain sanity I do need to let go. Whether or not that means losing an INTJ, we have yet to tell, but if it does, maybe I'm just not going to be the girl to break him out of his shell.

This is all easier said than done, of course. But your responses have truly been a reality check and I thank you for that.

For your own sake & dignity it's better to let go your INTJ if you aren't capable of resist the way of life that is particular to us. We aren't emotional people, we don't like the unnecessary, and for us they are occasions that physical contact is not logical at the moment; this not means that we don't appreciate contact, we do. We, construct moments to do it, thought. As we have a pretty solid shell, that not breaks by force. Emotions to us are so hard to analyse, we need patience, a lot, to fully understand the meanings of love, even the most simple things are real complex and long challenges to resolve. We think that we feel, not feel what we think. My advice is to be more strategic, you need to win the game, but, of course, your INTJ got to be agree with losing.

P.S. It's hard to admit it, but we need instructions to understand relationships. Take note of this.

[dreamcatcher]

ArgentOunce, you hit on what I have detected.
I feel as though I am trying to win someone over.
My question is this: does it sound like he is interested?
This I have gotten mixed responses on.
I am willing to fight for this man, and what I have said has been misinterpreted, perhaps I have not correctly represented what has happened between us...I guess it is so complicated that I am not even sure.
I just don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be fought for. It's not necessarily a matter of not feeling intense enough feelings for him, or underestimating his ability to love, or whatever--it is just that I don't know how far to press this.
What you said, ArgentOunce, feels completely true. It is a matter of convincing him.
I will give you an example.
After we had the weird conversations about what was going on between us, I brought boxes over for him to help him move, and we had probably the best conversation I've ever had in my life. If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was. It was amazing. And a couple of times, he made eye contact with me in a way that I know him sell enough to know that it was almost a "surprise"-he was taken aback by what he saw in me. This sounds weird, and I can't explain it to my friends, but perhaps to INTJ's you will understand. A few days later he wrote me and told me how "shocked" he was by my patience with him and how sorry he was that he couldn't express his gratitude for my friendship. But these things that he says, they are so few and far between, and if he writes me too often-say twice in one day-then it is almost like I know that he won't write for another four or five days. Indecisiveness or being scared out of his wits? Interest or infatuation and addicted to our ability to connect? I guess that asking people these questions because he is the same "type" is like asking a magic 8 ball, and I somehow hoped for a clear answer, and I am so frustrated by the situation....and Marcus, I have changed my mind already just writing this :)

[blueback]

Maybe approaching it from a different perspective will help.

Based on what you have said so far (which isn't much) he is interested in you. Also, I'm going to have to describe this from my perspective so, assuming he thinks the same way I do, this would apply.

For me, the idea of compromise is hard to take. I don't compromise my standards for myself, so why would I compromise my standards for the second closest person to me? A committed relationship sounds like a great thing only as long as it's with the right person. If the person falls short I can't see myself "trying" because it would be a waste of time. People don't change. So whatever they are is whatever they will be, just with more years on them. If what they are isn't enough, then it will never be enough, so why bother?

I have several beatiful female friends who I have absolutely no interest in pursuing, or even allowing, a relationship with. By beautiful I mean all the way around, inside and out, they are the whole package. The reason I am interested in them as friends is that they are good people, the reason I have no interest beyond friendship is I know they aren't right for me. If they came on to me I would have a hard time not sleeping with them, and if that's all they wanted I'd consider it, but if they wanted a relationship I would have no trouble explaining why I wouldn't even "try" it.

This dichotomy in my mind is the result of my standards. When someone meets my standards they are "cleared" and can come and go as they please. I will even seek them out on occasion. But there are levels of clearance and the standards get exponentially higher the closer they get to me. However, I haven't met the woman yet who has made it possible for me to consider committing to her.

The standards get so high, especially for a significant other, because I take my promises very seriously. As far as the laws of physics allow, my word is my bond, which means I don't give my word very often. It is too limiting. If I was in a relationship with a woman that I knew I was not going to be able to stay with forever, not only would I have a hard time staying with her at all, but I'd have a hard time not clearly explaining to her that I was going to leave at some point (probably sooner rather than later). In my mind I can't help but picture a future in which I have promised to stay with a woman who sort of qualified, but then either she regresses or I meet a woman who truly does qualify. Where does that put me? I can't help it. This is how my mind works.

Even when I'm interested in starting a relationship with a woman I am thinking the same things. I am trying to figure out whether or not I'd be a bad person for drawing her into a relationship, realizing it wasn't good enough, and then watching her cry as I explain that I'm not going to stay with her. I understand that all actions involve some level of risk, and relationships more than most, but I'm still responsible for the effects of my actions. You can't start a relationship with the line: "I'm attracted to you. I'd like us to be closer. Do you want to give it a try? Also, I reserve the right to alter this agreement at any time, for any reason." I just can't help but think that it would be kinder to bear my own suffering for wondering what could have been then to inflict suffering when it turns out not to be.

So, to sum up, what I mean is that he's probably interested in you but he's too busy thinking to realize that relationships cannot be forecasted. My standing rule for people who are interested in another person, and have no obvious reason to know it won't work, is to just give it a try.

[ArgentOunce]

ArgentOunce, you hit on what I have detected.
I feel as though I am trying to win someone over.
My question is this: does it sound like he is interested?
This I have gotten mixed responses on.
I am willing to fight for this man, and what I have said has been misinterpreted, perhaps I have not correctly represented what has happened between us...I guess it is so complicated that I am not even sure.
I just don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be fought for. It's not necessarily a matter of not feeling intense enough feelings for him, or underestimating his ability to love, or whatever--it is just that I don't know how far to press this.
What you said, ArgentOunce, feels completely true. It is a matter of convincing him.
I will give you an example.
After we had the weird conversations about what was going on between us, I brought boxes over for him to help him move, and we had probably the best conversation I've ever had in my life. If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was. It was amazing. And a couple of times, he made eye contact with me in a way that I know him sell enough to know that it was almost a "surprise"-he was taken aback by what he saw in me. This sounds weird, and I can't explain it to my friends, but perhaps to INTJ's you will understand. A few days later he wrote me and told me how "shocked" he was by my patience with him and how sorry he was that he couldn't express his gratitude for my friendship. But these things that he says, they are so few and far between, and if he writes me too often-say twice in one day-then it is almost like I know that he won't write for another four or five days. Indecisiveness or being scared out of his wits? Interest or infatuation and addicted to our ability to connect? I guess that asking people these questions because he is the same "type" is like asking a magic 8 ball, and I somehow hoped for a clear answer, and I am so frustrated by the situation....and Marcus, I have changed my mind already just writing this :)

I'm glad that my opinion helps.

I assure you that he's interested in you. Talking about the frequency of writing, I'll give you an example too: For us, things work precisely, our day is the sum of the acts we plan for the day. Every thing sums in another list that also needs to be complete, if he write two times a week, let's say monday and friday, the next week he'll write two times also, but maybe different days. If he didn't write, the next week for sure he will write four times, or repay it in another form of communication. For us, things have equivalents because we focus more in the essence that in the way of doing it. We are perfectionist, so, in the better case, he is cooking the best words to you. In this matter, don't pressure him, because we need time to make our objective executed in the most perfect and precise form.

Also I invite you to note that we are very hard to impress, so, if you had impressed him, cheers! you are scoring points.

Remember what I said about "Constructing moments for intimacy"? I bet that the move-moment is one of these.

The short and dangerous way to win a INTJ heart is the way of natural impression.

Advice number two: Get/wait/provoke more intellectual sex with him =)

[Sinequanon]

ArgentOunce, you hit on what I have detected.
I feel as though I am trying to win someone over.
My question is this: does it sound like he is interested?
This I have gotten mixed responses on.
I am willing to fight for this man, and what I have said has been misinterpreted, perhaps I have not correctly represented what has happened between us...I guess it is so complicated that I am not even sure.
I just don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be fought for. It's not necessarily a matter of not feeling intense enough feelings for him, or underestimating his ability to love, or whatever--it is just that I don't know how far to press this.
What you said, ArgentOunce, feels completely true. It is a matter of convincing him.
I will give you an example.
After we had the weird conversations about what was going on between us, I brought boxes over for him to help him move, and we had probably the best conversation I've ever had in my life. If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was. It was amazing. And a couple of times, he made eye contact with me in a way that I know him sell enough to know that it was almost a "surprise"-he was taken aback by what he saw in me. This sounds weird, and I can't explain it to my friends, but perhaps to INTJ's you will understand. A few days later he wrote me and told me how "shocked" he was by my patience with him and how sorry he was that he couldn't express his gratitude for my friendship. But these things that he says, they are so few and far between, and if he writes me too often-say twice in one day-then it is almost like I know that he won't write for another four or five days. Indecisiveness or being scared out of his wits? Interest or infatuation and addicted to our ability to connect? I guess that asking people these questions because he is the same "type" is like asking a magic 8 ball, and I somehow hoped for a clear answer, and I am so frustrated by the situation....and Marcus, I have changed my mind already just writing this :)

Haha, that's why I love INFPs, so decisive, for a moment, at least. :)

Your relationship sounds really distant to me, though, from reading over your OP again. How often do you see each other? How often is it possible to see each other? Maybe you need to step up the in-person visits and lower the email relationship?

[Marcus]

If you can call it "intellectual sex" that is entirely what it was.
That seems to be the right term. Do INFPs always talk about their sex lives in public?

I think you should resolve the question IRL.

[tree]

I'm an INTJ in my mid-30s. Personally, I think INFP women are god's gift to INTJs.

You mentioned something about waiting for him to make a first move. If your INTJ friend has not had a lot of serious relationships, I'd recommend that you forget about gender stereotypes and consider making that move yourself. And not a small or subtle one. INTJ men are very confident about many things, but starting relationships often isn't one of them. It isn't something to have a discussion with him about either, as it sounds like you have found. INTJs would withdraw in that kind of conversation because they might not be comfortable. But if you, ahem, make him comfortable, with very unsubtle cues of your feelings, that's the way you'll find out.

I have never spoken to a woman for 4 hours that I would not have slept with right there and then (pre being married) if she threw me on the bed and got it started. But more often than not I left the room without a kiss because I wouldn't make that first move.

If you get into a relationship, just know that INTJs often don't like to do things they aren't good at, and they think that providing emotional support isn't something they are good at. They'll learn eventually that they need to get good at it if they want to have and keep an NF spouse. But early on, you should have modest expectations about the emotional support he will provide. But in the long term, don't settle for that. Help him understand that he needs to learn how and that it is OK to be bad at it at first.

[ElstonGunn]

There are only two options: you sincerely like me or you don't. There is no "maybe" or "kinda". I wouldn't want to waste my time on anyone who didn't genuinely like me, and I wouldn't string along anyone who I didn't really like as well.

True, but only if you base you relationship decisions solely on whether or not you like someone. I personally think they're way, way more to it than that. I could like someone a gajillion points on a Scale of Liking and still not want a relationship with her because of other reasons. For example, she's married, or she's too far away, or there's a big age gap, or different beliefs, or anything like that. You could probably make the argument that if something like that bothers me, then I don't like her, but a lot of these things don't have anything to do with who she is as an individual.


INTJ's show feelings and emotions in a completely different way. It's misleading thinking that they don't care, it's misleading thinking that they care. The true question is: how this makes you feel?

I'd suggest that any non-INTJ (or non-NT in general) who is interested in one of us should copy this and staple it to their forehead. If you want to think we're bad people because we're not like you fine, but don't impugn our capability to feel things just because we express them differently than most people do. If you can recognize that, accept it, and deal with it, you stand a much better chance of getting along with one of us in a romantic relationship.


You mentioned something about waiting for him to make a first move. If your INTJ friend has not had a lot of serious relationships, I'd recommend that you forget about gender stereotypes and consider making that move yourself. And not a small or subtle one. INTJ men are very confident about many things, but starting relationships often isn't one of them.

I'm pretty sure you're me. Or you have the ability to read my mind, because I don't disagree with one iota of what you're saying here. My point being that I'd recommend following this advice as well, wherever it may be applicable.

[tree]

Two follow-up points to my prior comment. First, by "unsubtle cues," I don't mean things an INFP would find unsubtle. I mean things a five year old boy would find unsubtle. In other words, don't kiss him for five seconds and then pull back and ask whether this is what he wants. Don't even hesitate for a second until his pants are off, your shirt is off, or he has firmly said to stop at least twice.

And yes, my advice could be a disaster, but it is the only way you'll find out.

[blueback]

Don't even hesitate for a second until his pants are off, your shirt is off, or he has firmly said to stop at least twice.

I think we can all agree the world would be a better place if all girls followed this advice.

[dreamcatcher]

Tree, I like your advice. I will see him on Thanksgiving and make my move, no questions asked. I guess it is the only way to find out. And yes, "talking" about it never works, because when we did eye contact turned into looking straight down at the table and making hand motions back and forth back and forth over the table, like a child that has just gotten caught stealing gum from the 7-11.
Would you, as INTJ's, see writing letters as an ideal situation?
And tree, your username is funny. My INTJ is a "tree worker"-he tree climbs as a hobby with equipment and everything and spent a lot of time as a tree care worker. He's a very "Thoreau" Chris McCandless type although he would never admit it.
Anyway, what was Chris McCandless' personality type?
Thanks again for all of your input, it has been so helpful.

[tree]

Good luck. Perhaps get a couple of beers into him first if you can. Also, note that with INTJs, this is sort of a one-time thing to get it started. Once the seal is broken, INTJs can be very eager to show affection, albeit perhaps in primitive ways if they don't have a lot of experience with it.

As I said, it of course could be a disaster, but if so it will be a great victory for some other INTJ down the road who will be very happy to find you single.

Oh, and I'm not sure what you had in mind for a letter, but I'd save letter writing for your NF girlfriends.

[Acextreme]

Tree, I like your advice. I will see him on Thanksgiving and make my move, no questions asked. I guess it is the only way to find out. And yes, "talking" about it never works, because when we did eye contact turned into looking straight down at the table and making hand motions back and forth back and forth over the table, like a child that has just gotten caught stealing gum from the 7-11.
Would you, as INTJ's, see writing letters as an ideal situation?
And tree, your username is funny. My INTJ is a "tree worker"-he tree climbs as a hobby with equipment and everything and spent a lot of time as a tree care worker. He's a very "Thoreau" Chris McCandless type although he would never admit it.
Anyway, what was Chris McCandless' personality type?
Thanks again for all of your input, it has been so helpful.

Ok, now that I have read through the entire thread, let's see if I can help a little. Let's start with answering the question you have right now - letters might be a very good option. Actually, anything that's in written form would be good, we express ourselves so much more better through written forms because tone and body language does not play a major part of communication when it's in written form, and these 2 are the biggest pitfalls of INTJs. And another advice, just take what we say literally. Eg: If we say we like you but with a straight poker face and not much of any corresponding supportive body language, that doesn't mean we are lying; it simply means we just are very bad with such stuff. To us, words are the most important thing in communication; now you see why we are so bad in that. Also, we believe action speaks louder than words; the fact that we are even spending time to talk to you means we are interested. I wouldn't even bother talking to a girl unless I like her. Much less initiating a conversation. And talking 4 hours is the SUREST sign we are interested in you unless that's an argument. Period.

And we take a hell of a long time before we entirely commit ourselves, but here's a very rewarding and encouraging thing for you to know: if we finally commit, we are REALLY committed for a lifetime unless the relationship turns really bad, like you slept with someone else when in a relationship? And here's why we take that hell of a long time to decide, we are scared of getting hurt, honestly. To us, emotional hurt is EXTREMELY devastating (even to the point that we feel you had betrayed our trust and feelings for you), that's why we have those 100-inch solid titanium walls erected to prevent anyone from coming in. And we are very reluctant to let anyone in unless we trust them, and it's very hard for us to trust you if you want it fast. After all, if you are genuinely interested in us, you will stake it out. We might have used patience to eliminate those who aren't "genuine" and also to test the commitment. So you really just need to be patient. But I can assure you, it will be worth it in the end because when we give our word to commit, we are commited through life and death literally. That's how much we put weight in such things.

So it's up to you, if you give up right now, this just shows that you lack determination, patience and commitment to work things out, which probably will also mean you would leave us for the slightest reason down in the future. That's probably how we would have analyzed, at least for me. So that's also probably when I dated, most gals got frustrated in the end and assumes that I was just playing around. I got hurt once so badly, that's why ever since, I had not let any gal into my emotional world until it's proven that they can be trusted. Up till now, none has succeeded. How discouraging...

[ElstonGunn]

Would you, as INTJ's, see writing letters as an ideal situation?

That's mostly irrelevant to me. The important thing is to make sure that there is no room for any doubt on my part about whether or not you like me, then make it twice as clear in addition to that, and then repeat that process once more after I say that I don't believe you or that I think you've mistaken me for someone else.

[Acextreme]

Good luck. Perhaps get a couple of beers into him first if you can. Also, note that with INTJs, this is sort of a one-time thing to get it started. Once the seal is broken, INTJs can be very eager to show affection, albeit perhaps in primitive ways if they don't have a lot of experience with it.


Well, I can confirm and validate this bit of information as accurate too. It's a one off kind of thing. Once that seal is broken, we can be very eager to show affection indeed. So I would see this as a plus, dreamcatcher. All the best and keep it up, don't give up...I can certainly understand how frustrating it is for you, but good things are worth waiting for, and good things are rare to come by too. And that describes us INTJs almost perfectly, or at least that's what I like to think...rofl! ;)

[PortInStorm]

As someone who is borderline INTJ/INFJ, and who's had a relationship very much like this one, I suggest having a low tolerance for endless dithering. My experience was that they were unsuitable for a primary relationship, but once the pressure was off (I found an SJ who I later married), the relationship was much better. And I had tried patience, flirting, hard-to-get, heart-to-heart, it didn't matter, there was still no consistency (superhot flame to stranger status) when he was trying to make up his mind about me as a partner. Mind you, he was an ENTP, and they can be a wee bit more... flighty than INTJs.

Oh, and them getting older helps.

[tree]

Port in Storm, with all due respect, whenever I meet someone who suggests that that they have an x for one or both of the two middle letters, especially the T/F, they are really an NF. And your post screams INFJ to me, especially in contrast to INTJs. (I have had more close relationships with INFJs than any other type). I could count at least 8 things in your short post that support that impression. And that doesn't even get started on the roses with the reflecting water ...

INFJs have a powerful streak that they think is cold rationality, and it can look that way on the surface, but the engine that drives it is their emotion. So you'll find some INFJs who think they see part of themselves when they read about INTJs. By contrast, when INTJs meet INFJs, they know instantly that they are talking to a very exciting but very alien creature whose internal ticking is nothing like their own.

[karenk]

Port in Storm, with all due respect, whenever I meet someone who suggests that that they have an x for one or both of the two middle letters, especially the T/F, they are really an NF. And your post screams INFJ to me, especially in contrast to INTJs. (I have had more close relationships with INFJs than any other type). I could count at least 8 things in your short post that support that impression. And that doesn't even get started on the roses with the reflecting water ...

INFJs have a powerful streak that they think is cold rationality, and it can look that way on the surface, but the engine that drives it is their emotion. So you'll find some INFJs who think they see part of themselves when they read about INTJs. By contrast, when INTJs meet INFJs, they know instantly that they are talking to a very exciting but very alien creature whose internal ticking is nothing like their own.


I got an INFJ impression too. My tests used to come out INTJ. I think it's a common mistyping.

[dreamcatcher]

Hey ...It's been awhile since I've updated this. I've sort of stepped back from analyzing the INTJ aspect of my INTJ. But we've made "progress". I am meeting his family over this weekend, they are in from out of town and he's not seeing any other people in the area. He also offered to come to my house.

Anyway this is a HUGE deal for him. Are there things that you, as INTJ's, are specifically freaked out by in the initial phase of a relationship? (In regards to meeting and spending the day with him and his family) I want to make things as comfortable as possible (for both of us) but right now I think the most important thing is to just put him at ease. So what are things to avoid? I haven't seen him in awhile either.

[Fanowene]

Are there things that you, as INTJ's, are specifically freaked out by in the initial phase of a relationship?
Well, so far I've never really come past the initial phase. I've never really been in a relationship. But yes, I am freaked out every time I even come close to seeing that there might be an "initial phase" coming up... At the same time it's exciting and I enjoy it. It just stresses out my brain every time... But hey: I love solving problems. :)

Does that mean that I'm bad at solving problems just because I've never been in a relationship? :thinking: (Nope. ;D)

Edit: I'm glad it's going so well for you.

Another edit: Maybe it is true that an INTJ will be more relaxed if he/she knows he/she will not be rushed into anything and that there will be no time pressure?

[OrrDavey]

Family, huh?

I am afraid to show people my family because they are legitimately crazy.

[Lil]

Dreamcatcher, when I read your first post I thought you were me. :)

I'm also an INFP in love with an INTJ. You might look at my thread "INTJ wants friends only." I do see this man in person often, which I gather is not the case for you. Also we're much older, and so have gone through many more relationship disasters than y'all. Hope you'll update this thread sometime. I'm interested in how you progress.

[ElstonGunn]

Are there things that you, as INTJ's, are specifically freaked out by in the initial phase of a relationship? (In regards to meeting and spending the day with him and his family) I want to make things as comfortable as possible (for both of us) but right now I think the most important thing is to just put him at ease. So what are things to avoid? I haven't seen him in awhile either.

The "initial phases" are about as comfortable as being locked in a box and then thrown into the ocean. Anything involving anyone other than the two people in the relationship bothers me. I don't like it when other people get into my business.

[dreamcatcher]

Well, yesterday went very well. I was greeted with a hug from the mom and very intentional conversations with the family and really cliqued with everything. I got an "I'm sure I'll see you again" from the dad and was side splitting laughing with his family at the dinner table. INTJ? Well, he sat next to me on the couch with shoulders touching. I gave him an antique copy of Huck Finn for his birthday and it seemed to mean a lot to him. We went on a walk alone, but no hooking of arms, no conversation about "where we stand". I guess we spent most of the time with his family, and so I shouldn't be so hard on the guy. But me being an INFP I put all of these emotional expectations upon it a sort of "Now or never" type deal. I left the house feeling frustrated because he didn't do anything direct to make me feel like I could relax and SERIOUSLY all i want to know is that he is ATTRACTED to me. Is that so much to ask? Any sort of romantic context, nothing deep, nothing committed. So I feel good, because he is extremely close with his family and I absolutely loved them and I feel as though from his "rational" mind, me fitting in well means a lot. But whatever. I want moosh gooshy !!!! damn you intjs! Just kidding. Sort of:)





dreamcatcher added to this post, 0 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Funny story that was indirectly ironic, I feel as though INTJ's will appreciate this.
The movie "Pump up the Volume"-90's flick? Christian Slater? Anyone? WEll if you haven't seen it you should. But it's about a highly introverted guy who starts a pirate radio station. And this girl pursues him and just basically says "You will love me." She goes into his room without knocking and just takes her shirt off with no previous conversation or even a date. When my INTJ and I discussed this movie I mentioned that the romance in the movie is the part that I don't really care for, because she is so forward and it feels forced, and I used the example of when she takes her shirt off. He said, "well yeah, but it's because she understood that he couldn't do it himself." And i said, "but what if he didn't want her to take her shirt off? She didn't know for sure?" And then there was silence.

[foobar]

Your guy isn't just INTJ; he's very shy and INTJ. Something tells me he's never been in a relationship before, and if you don't push a bit he probably never will.

What you need to do is to be as direct as possible: the next time you're alone with him just say "Can I kiss you?". You're not forcing anything on him -- it's a simple, direct question.

If he goes all red and doesn't know what to say, just calm him down ("Come on, I'll be gentle") and give him the friendliest smile you've ever given. If he says "no," then at least you have closure and you can stop worrying about it.

[OrrDavey]

"but what if he didn't want her to take her shirt off? She didn't know for sure?"

If you visited a guys family you are so in. Just do it already.

Haha.

Edit:

Ok this is one that I used to use with girls when I wanted to try to kiss them - albeit much earlier than meeting their family.

Just be talking about something when you two are in a private setting and you are close to him. Then just let what you are saying die off mid sentence and keep eye contact with him for a few seconds. Then ask, "Do you want to kiss me?" He will give you one of three responses - yes, maybe and no.

If he says yes, kiss him.

If he says maybe, say, "Well let's find out" and then kiss him.

If he says no, say, "Woah, don't take me so seriously - it just looked like you had something on your mind."

But he is either going to say yes or maybe, so don't even worry about the no answer.

[ricearoni]

Funny story that was indirectly ironic, I feel as though INTJ's will appreciate this.
The movie "Pump up the Volume"-90's flick? Christian Slater? Anyone? WEll if you haven't seen it you should. But it's about a highly introverted guy who starts a pirate radio station. And this girl pursues him and just basically says "You will love me." She goes into his room without knocking and just takes her shirt off with no previous conversation or even a date. When my INTJ and I discussed this movie I mentioned that the romance in the movie is the part that I don't really care for, because she is so forward and it feels forced, and I used the example of when she takes her shirt off. He said, "well yeah, but it's because she understood that he couldn't do it himself." And i said, "but what if he didn't want her to take her shirt off? She didn't know for sure?" And then there was silence.

Heh. I remember that my INTJ friend disliked the movie Amelie because the girl was too chicken to even talk to the guy. So I could totally see why that woman's forwardness would be appreciated.


If you visited a guys family you are so in. Just do it already.

Haha.

Yeah, seriously.

[dreamcatcher]

thank you for your words of confidence. (I am not so confident). Hence refraining from attacking his face............maybe someday.

[Anon722]

"please read through it because it is so important to me"

This is no argument for convincing INTJs... sorry.

[ElstonGunn]

Heh. I remember that my INTJ friend disliked the movie Amelie because the girl was too chicken to even talk to the guy. So I could totally see why that woman's forwardness would be appreciated.

I've never seen or heard of that movie, but I bet I'd have the same reaction to it. It would be just about impossible for someone to make it too clear that she's interested in me. I'm not interested in trying to figure it out.


If you visited a guys family you are so in.

I don't even really like it when my friends are around my family, even if it's a friend I've had for ten years and one who I know for sure that my family likes. So if I brought a girl over, that would be a pretty big sign that I'm serious about her.

[dreamcatcher]

I haven't been on here in months... but I just wanted to tell you guys that my INTJ and I are ENGAGED. After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back. And when people ask me how I did it, or how I knew to be so patient and wait it out, I just smile.......because without this forum I never would have had done it. So thanks guys. :)

[Fanowene]

I haven't been on here in months... but I just wanted to tell you guys that my INTJ and I are ENGAGED. After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back. And when people ask me how I did it, or how I knew to be so patient and wait it out, I just smile.......because without this forum I never would have had done it. So thanks guys. :)
Congrats!!!

I think the INTJf should have a "Hall of Fame" for successful hookups that wouldn't have happened without people's advice here. But it probably would need a better name. So much frustration... The success has to be in our faces too.

[Lil]

Holy crap! Congratulations!!

You said: After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back.

What was the trigger that made him decide to "date" you? (If you know.)

How did you know when it happened? Was he explicit, i.e., "I think we should date," or was it more a case of you looked back and said to yourself, "Oh, I guess we're dating now."

How did you know you and he were now dating?

(Did he ever get up the courage to take your shirt off, or did you have to do it?)

Inquiring INFP's really want to know. ;)

[ricearoni]

I haven't been on here in months... but I just wanted to tell you guys that my INTJ and I are ENGAGED. After all of his slowness, once he decided to DATE me, it was like he never looked back. And when people ask me how I did it, or how I knew to be so patient and wait it out, I just smile.......because without this forum I never would have had done it. So thanks guys. :)

Congratulations!!! :)


What was the trigger that made him decide to "date" you? (If you know.)

How did you know when it happened? Was he explicit, i.e., "I think we should date," or was it more a case of you looked back and said to yourself, "Oh, I guess we're dating now."

How did you know you and he were now dating?

(Did he ever get up the courage to take your shirt off, or did you have to do it?)

Inquiring INFP's really want to know. ;)

This INFJ wants to know too!

[dreamcatcher]

Well ....
part of the problem (which I found out later) was that he was being pursued by 3 other girls (small christian university with bad girl to guy ratio, plus he is 'mysterious' and attractive and seemingly unattainable) So my situation may be a bit different, but I think that it is very similar to a typical INTJ + INFp relationship because his "decision process" was why I went through hell and back and it only complicated things even more for a person who would already be difficult to convince to date you.
(this is for Lil) And that is why I could count the times he called and my friends thought I was insane for reading into every single thing that he did, because to me it was a big deal. He was simply so slow.
The night that everything changed.
He had sent me flowers on Valentine's Day, and I had thought that this was "it" that I didn't have to wonder anymore, etc. But I noticed that his emails were STILL spaced out between one another, even after everything we had been through, I didn't feel like he was mine. He was coming back to our college town after being home for the winter, and we had this weird conversation where I had phoned him to "find out" what time he would get in (when in reality I was just annoyed that he didn't automatically tell me- after all he had SENT me flowers!) I had been so careful up to this point since the initial "do you like me?" confrontation where he had said no that I was afraid to make any moves. But that night, something in me cracked. I had reached my limit. I called him back after we had hung up and said, what is going on? we haven't seen eachother for months, I'm scared you're going to get here and act like nothing has even happened between us.
This is the point when he admitted to me that he had htought that he had "chosen" me but he had been receiving letters from girls that were "distracting" him, and he was annoyed at himself for not being able to "make a decision"
Well, being the self respecting woman that I am, I totally flipped out.
What is this, a bad episode of the fucking bachelor? The problem was that he was being too honest. He quickly backpedaled saying "no I hardly ever think about them, i just wish it hadn't had thrown me off, and it's hard for me to commit, i've been single for 25 years, blah blah blah"
I said, very coolly, alright. I have to draw the line somewhere. And this is it. this is the time. I then explained VERY rationally that I understood he needed time to make a decision, and that the girl that he is supposed to be with will be able to have more patience, but I am afraid, that this is the end of the line for me. I made it very clear that I was not giving him an ultimatum, but that I was just too tired. It had been 8 months of this rollercoaster at this point, and I meant every word I said.
Something in him snapped. He said "well, it would be..I mean..it would be..horrible..if we stopped being friends." I maintained my cool, and said, I just don't know anymore. (the disclosure of other women was too much for me to withstand and that is really what my limit was)- something in him clicked. he stayed up that whole night, couldnt sleep, drove 10 hours to see me, and brought me a letter confessing that I was the best thing that ever happened to him and how grateful he is for me, in an antique wooden purse. Ever since then, I have NEVER even REMOTELY doubted his feelings for me. And I don't think he has EITHER. I really don't. In fact, I probaly have more doubts now than he does. The physical aspect of things was interesting because he had never kissed anyone before so..the answer is - I had to do it. :)
And this is my advice for inquiring INFps....and what my GREATEST piece of advice can be....
Be as patient as possible, wait as long as you can possibly wait. When you reach your brink, and you will know when the time has come to throw in the towel.
this worked for me, and I say this for two reasons.
The first is that if you do not reach your own REAL limit then you will probably just make a fool of yourself. As INFps, we are vulnerable to making decisions that we will go back on, and the INTJ will not understand that. To threaten ending something in an emotionally charged way and then say, oh wait, never mind, I forgot I'm madly in love with you and would wait years for you to come around doesn't jive with the INTJ. They'll just think you are a flake.
The second is that you'll be able to walk away in good conscience, knowing you gave it your best try, and them knowing the same thing.
If you do reach your breaking point, explain it to them RATIONALLY. do not lose your cool. I don't think that this is an answer or "how to" win an INTJ, because I know that logically it never should have worked. "He's just not that into you" should have been my mantra. For whatever insane reason, I stuck it out...a lot because of this board...
if you have anymore questions I'm more than happy to answer

[Nightwish bob]

I am really glad this worked out for you :) goes to show that a little patience and understanding and staying true to yourself will get you where you want to be.

Good luck to you both! :)

[JimTaylor]

I am really glad this worked out for you :) goes to show that a little patience and understanding and staying true to yourself will get you where you want to be.

Good luck to you both! :)

Ditto, and congrats. I just have to say your fiancé is one lucky guy to find someone so patient and understanding of how we function internally.

[Lil]

Dreamcatcher, that is a great story! And very dramatic. I think you're absolutely right. To be patient, but when you reach your limit, say so. You can't fake that last straw thing.

When you said you were afraid he'd just show up in town "as though nothing had happened." The thing that happened-- are you referring to the flowers? If this was an eight-month relationship, then you didn't know him the previous Valentine's Day. If in his mind you were "just friends," why did he send you flowers on Valentine's Day?

You took the physical initiative, okay, but now that you're officially a couple, has he stepped into the breach (as it were)? It seems like INTJ's don't like to approach even if they're positive the answer will be yes.

I'm very familiar with the Infrequent Email Syndrome.

Your story is very cool. I wish you much happiness.

[tinapay]

Wow! Congratulations! You are... very very very patient. I don't think I would have the energy to maintain such contact with such guy. (Pride)

I hope you two would have a happy future together!

Post pics of babies when you start having one!

[JaneEyre]

Honestly, go pick up a copy of "Please Understand Me II" by David Keirsey and the basic "INTJ How-To Guide" is right there at your fingertips. I would honestly post it right here, but I don't have it memorized verbatim (...yet.)

My advice is be direct with him, do what makes YOU happy...i do agree that you should'nt play games but that maybe the only way he's going to react in a new way is if you do put a stop to it.





JaneEyre added to this post, 2 minutes and 46 seconds later...

Well ....
part of the problem (which I found out later) was that he was being pursued by 3 other girls (small christian university with bad girl to guy ratio, plus he is 'mysterious' and attractive and seemingly unattainable)

Now i'm CONVINCED we're the same person...lol.

[OwnyTony]

After reading this whole thread through, I had a feeling that once you get him to commit, things would move really fast.
I think your patience has been rewarded greatly. Congrats and maybe keep us posted.